Aikido. The Martial Art.

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[mwible]

I have only studied Aikido for 2 years (i have prior training in other MA too), but i study diligently and i train hard. So please judge my post accordingly.

Now, for my question and my reason for making a post:

I have thought a lot recently about sparring in general and its affects with Aikido; and YES i have sparred other MA practitioners, including MMA guys (just to experiment). And, after my experiences with that, and just my thoughts on Aikido in general, i can’t get away from the thoughts of how deadly Aikido really is. I mean, in sparring with other martial arts, you hit, punch and kick them to make your point (and yes you can do that as well with Aikido), but with our chosen Martial Art, if you spar with someone else from another MA, I believe that the only way to really win (by using Aikido) would be to severely injure them. I just don’t see a standing submission happening too often in sparring, they wont want to give up, you would have to really crank something on them and break something to win, that, or throw them to the floor; but even with that, you can most certainly, and probably would injure them.

I am not saying that Aikido is meant to be brutal and hurtful, I’m just saying that from my point of view, that is how it would have to end up if someone was really trying to injure you, or if your only objective was to win at any cost necessary.

I’m just trying to see if anyone see’s my point of view as flat out wrong, or if anyone feels the same way as I do. That Aikido is a very deadly and effective martial art.

Rei, Domo,

-Morgan

[DonMagee]

I disagree for the most part. Most aikido techniques I have seen are perfectly legal in many combat sports. Most combat sport practitioners know when to submit. None of the locks and throws in aikido are any more dangerous then the locks and throws of bjj or judo. Seriously, I can destroy your knee much faster with a heel hook then you can cause serious injury to my wrist with nikkyo. Judo throws against a person who has no skill in falling are just as devastating as any aikido throw. See karyo's shoulder lock hari throws for an example.

I think people's bodies are more resilient then we give them credit for. I've been thrown against my will while in a wrist lock, I've been throw against my will by my aikido instructor, I've been throw against my will while in a shoulder lock. I've been submited with neck cranks, spine locks, knee bars, heel hooks, ankle locks, wrist locks of every aikido variety, elbow locks, toe holds, etc all in sparing. Some of them so fast and so hard I was sure I was injured. Only to find I was fine (or just sore for a few days).

IMHO the heel hook is the single most dangerous joint lock you can apply on the human body. It causes serious injury very quickly, and normally the injury happens BEFORE there is any pain. Yet it is a staple of bjj and MMA training.

That said, yes, anyone with the skill can cause serious injury to their opponent. It is just much harder to injure someone (hand to hand) then most people realize.

[Ron Tisdale]

I've seen people dropped on their head on concrete and they got up fighting.

Yeah, sometimes bad things happen too...

Best,
Ron

[ChrisHein]

People get thrown REALLY hard in Judo all the time. Some bjj guys have a few pretty slick standing submissions.

Later in Ueshibas life, he focused on Aikido as a safe way to restrain someone, and many of the hippies that came after worked on this idea as well.

I don't think unarmed Aikido is particularly "deadly".

[dps]

I don't think unarmed Aikido is particularly "deadly".

http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/articlei.htm

Aikido and Competition
by David Alexander

"Aikido went in the opposite direction from Judo. To quote from "Traditional Aikido", by Morihiro Saito, Vol. V, "It is a well-known fact that matches are prohibited in Aikido. This is because Aikido has inherited a number of lethal techniques from its Founder, which render matches too dangerous an exercise, and also because the art purports to place no restrictions on every conceivable movement.

If the rules are set and dangerous techniques are excluded from the matches, Aikido undoubtedly will lose its raison d'etre. If matches are to be held, all the techniques will have to be scaled down to those consisting mainly of Atemi or the contestants will have to either stake their lives or wear protective gear. A question also arises whether the form of the competition should be limited to empty-handed techniques or should also include the use of weaponry.

Even if only empty-handed techniques are allowed the techniques inherent with Aikido are too terrific to make Ukemi (rolls and somersaults in defense) possible. True, such Ukemi against throwing is made possible deliberately in training sessions. However, execution of techniques becomes uninhibited in matches and the dangers involved are obvious."

David ( not the person being quoted above)

[Kevin Leavitt]

No suprise that I pretty much side with Don on this one. I also don't totally agree with the above quote by David. Weapons certainly affect things, but I don't believe or have seen that aikido has the corner on the market on anything concerning this topic.

[eyrie]

It's not about point scoring - Aikido is not a sport.
It's not about "winning" or "losing" - because Aikido is not a sport.
It's not about being "deadly" or not causing harm - that's based on situation and circumstance, and to an extent, choice.

I think it is necessary to distinguish what is "learning", what is "training", what is "practice" and what is applied use in a "real situation" - they are NOT the same thing.

[dps]

I don't think unarmed Aikido is particularly "deadly".

Do you think that any of the throws in the folowing video clip would be deadly if the ukes did not know ukemi?

http://www.aikidoedintorni.com/Video/m_tissier_bercy_08.htm

David

[Keith R Lee]

Yup, they'd be fine.

You're severely underestimating that resiliency of a motivated person. Go to any skate park in the US and watch kids just EAT pavement, with no protection gear, from 10-12 feet in the air. Some of them will curl up, cry, and be hurt. But the majority of them will get up bleeding, limping, and laughing because they just don't give a f%#$* and can take it.

I'm also with Don, RE: heel hooks. They're regularly way more dangerous than anything in Aikido.

[mwible]

Thank you all for your reply's. I just wanted some more experienced input. My thoughts on the matter havent much changed, but i appreciate your responses, and i will think on them.

domo,
morgan

[mwible]

It's not about point scoring - Aikido is not a sport.
It's not about "winning" or "losing" - because Aikido is not a sport.
It's not about being "deadly" or not causing harm - that's based on situation and circumstance, and to an extent, choice.

I think it is necessary to distinguish what is "learning", what is "training", what is "practice" and what is applied use in a "real situation" - they are NOT the same thing.

May i ask what exactly you were trying to say by this?

rei,
-morgan

[Aikibu]

Well since we practice Aikido as a Martial Art I sure think there are techniques that are just as "deadly" as a heel hook and our Ukes are taught to keep attacking till they are pinned or subdued...

So sorry folks but I guess I basically disagree with everyone except David and the Shodothugs. :D

The "deadliness" of Aikido is congruent with it's application. The way Aikido is applied in most cases is not Martial in practice or approach but that is the fault of the Instruction and when folks complain about Aikido not "working" I can't argue with them if all they see are pony tailed dancing Aiki Bunnies hopping hither and yon on fields of green rubber tatami.

Shoji Nishio Shihan saw this as a paradox we could work with...Aikido must be effective against other Martial Arts otherwise it is not a Martial Art and... It also must "express" Aikido.... So practice is about beating your swords into plowshares so to speak. :)

William Hazen

[ChrisHein]

Go to any skate park in the US and watch kids just EAT pavement, with no protection gear, from 10-12 feet in the air. Some of them will curl up, cry, and be hurt. But the majority of them will get up bleeding, limping, and laughing because they just don't give a f%#$* and can take it.



What he said.

Sometimes people bang their head on the corner of a table and die, but most of the time not. People are pretty tough. If you doubt this, watch some goju kararte guys go at it. Or as Keith said, skaters, landing every which way on hard surfaces all day long.

[eyrie]

May i ask what exactly you were trying to say by this?

rei,
-morgan I thought that was quite explicit... Which part did you not understand?

[JRY]

It despends on the situation/reaction of the other person etc
I too share the opinion that Aikido techniques can be devastating depending on the situation.
But so is a boxer's punch if it connects properly.
In the street especially when the person is not expecting you to do a technique, they usually get hurt by their own momentum/force. In my opinion about 70% of all street brawls involve wild roundhouse punches. Imagine doing shihonage on this!

The best thing about Aikido is, at its highest level one is able to control his opponent without inflicting injury on the opponent.I suppose ultimately this is the goal that all of us hope to achieve.

[mwible]

I thought that was quite explicit... Which part did you not understand?

I just didn't think it was very relative to what i was saying and asking.

[Peter Seth]

Hi all. Good thread.
It seems everyone is concentrating on this or that technique, whereas i think just the movement, flow, form etc are more important. Meaning 'ai -ki -do', if performed as I think O'sensei would have liked, the evasion, leading and dissipation or utilisation of an attackers energy should be enough to dissuade or neutralise the attack. In my 47 ish years in martial arts - past 30 or so aikido, I find the potential of 'aiki' do frightening - thats without applying a technique. If you can evade and redirect your opponent into a 'energy void', where his balance and energy virtually dissappear - well, depending on the perceived threat, you can do what is 'necessary'.
I am not naive - there will be situations which you can not handle (thats when the 'leg it' option/technique comes into play). Most people can naturally just 'fight' - some better than others and some with with no ethical or moral high ground to maintain. Aikido and other marts gives you a 'front end' as it were to your defence strategy - if this does not provide the required results then the natural 'fight' will usually kick in. Basically you have a two level defence system.
I think what I am trying to say is that in this case (Aikido) with its practical potential along with its ethical component provides the individual with choices, depending on circumstances. To be aware of and use this first line skill and its whole range of potential from very gentle control to lethal application, as required, with maturity and care. Quote from the film Roadhouse - 'Be nice' - 'untill its time not to be nice'! Also - Its much better to be judged :sorry: by twelve people that to be carried :dead: by six!
Best regards,
Peter

PS: If anyone is in the Sunderland area (north east england) on Sat the 26th april 2008. please call in to The Seaburn Centre where the Sunderland Int Festival of Martial Arts 8, is taking place 10 am till 4pm. Twelve to fourteen different marts demonstrated throughout the day plus much more - great day - lots of fun and excitement - great people donating their skill, experience and time free - all proceeds to Cancer Research UK. Say hi - i'm the old bloke with the microphone and maybe a flurry of activity later in the day.:)

[dps]

From The American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons
http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00273

"Skateboarding is an activity in which you move quickly over hard surfaces. It can lead to injuries that range from minor cuts and bruises to catastrophic brain injury. Each year in the United States, skateboarding injuries cause about 50,000 visits to emergency departments and 1500 children and adolescents to be hospitalized. (Source: AAP, March 2002. )

Most hospitalizations involve head injury. Even injuries that heal quickly can cause pain and anxiety, cost time, and money and may lead to disabilities. This can include loss of vision, hearing and speech; inability to walk, bathe, toilet, dress or feed yourself; and changes in thinking and behavior. "

David

[DonMagee]

I'd like to also point out that the most dangerous throws (and the hardest I've ever been thrown) was not by my aikido teacher, or my judo coach. It was by a wrestler.

Wrestlers are not taught explicit ukemi that I know of. None of the ones I have talked to said they learned how to fall. Yet the throws they do are very very hard falls to take.

Injurys due to throws for me in my life:

Aikido: 0
Judo: maybe a 3 or 4 (usually broken fingers)
Wrestling: Probably 7 or 8 (usually my neck or shoulder)

[DonMagee]

Do you think that any of the throws in the folowing video clip would be deadly if the ukes did not know ukemi?

http://www.aikidoedintorni.com/Video/m_tissier_bercy_08.htm

David

I watched a few minutes of that. A lot of those throws would not cause the average guy to take the kind of high hard falls aikidoka take. They would just tumble to the ground and maybe risk a wrist or arm sprain, possibly a breakage. Only one or two of those throws would really risk the non aikidoka in terms of injury from the throw (those being the hip throws).

A good example is the kotogeshi. Every time I have used this in bjj my opponent does not take a front flippy breakfall. Instead, he flops out to the ground to take pressure off the wrist. A lot of aikidoka see the kotogeshi as a hard dangerous fall when really they are escaping the wrist lock by jumping into a nice breakfall for effect.

[charyuop]

Few months ago I had an incident in the dojo (basically slipped while taking Ukemi) and hurt my shoulder. That had me think about Aikido and his "protect" the opponent.
So I asked my Sensei his opinion. After all I hurt my shoulder, but if I don't know how to take Ukemi could go much worse. It is enough thinking techniques where Uke arches backwards (like for example Shihonage or Iriminage). We are taught to protect our head and wrists (by not putting our hands down first), but someone with no knowledge of Ukemi will have "better" chances to end up on a hard surface with the back of the head first...or maybe breaking a wrist trying to stop his fall.
Sensei answered my question with another question. Why, do you think I couldn't hurt you anyway?

I guess Aikido doesn't really mean protect the opponent, but it means being in control and being able to decide if you really need to hurt or not. After all if I do an iriminage, in the ending part I should be the one who is in the position to decide if you have to go down a more soft way (letting this way land first the body) or make sure that it is the back of your head to kiss the concrete first.

[SeiserL]

I am not saying that Aikido is meant to be brutal and hurtful, I'm just saying that from my point of view, that is how it would have to end up if someone was really trying to injure you, or if your only objective was to win at any cost necessary.
Okay, so yes, Aikido can still be a martial art.
Okay, so yes, Aikido can be brutal and hurtful.
Okay, so yes, in real life, Aikido can go to the extreme.

IMHO, Aikido is is the tool/art. The individual is the artist. It is their/mine/your choice of intent/intensity that makes the difference.

My Aikido works just fine as a martial art, Budo, discipline, a workout, and a good time.

Peace has always been found through the willingness to do battle, and finally choosing not to.

[Budd]

Hardest throw I ever took was from an Edinboro University heavyweight (their coach at that time was Olympic gold medalist Bruce Baumgartner). I was wrestling then at 171, so was QUITE a bit smaller than this guy, who did a suplet/suplex and threw me so hard on my neck/back, that my feet flew over my head and dislocated the big toe on my left foot (the neck and back didn't feel so great, either) . . .

No pain, no gain, right? (#$%#$ ouch)

[happysod]

A lot of aikidoka see the kotogeshi as a hard dangerous fall when really they are escaping the wrist lock by jumping into a nice breakfall for effecthad to repeat this for truth and accuracy - a lot of the big ukemis I've seen from many techniques in aikido are "Whee-this-is fun" led happy ukemi rather than necessary.

[Keith Larman]

had to repeat this for truth and accuracy - a lot of the big ukemis I've seen from many techniques in aikido are "Whee-this-is fun" led happy ukemi rather than necessary.

This is one of the reasons (among others) I was told we don't do breakfalls in Seidokan. And practicing that way changes the dynamics quite a bit of certain things and means you have to get very good about kuzushi, range, etc. to maintain control with techniques like kotegaeshi and shihonage. Just fwiw.

[JRY]

PS: If anyone is in the Sunderland area (north east england) on Sat the 26th april 2008. please call in to The Seaburn Centre where the Sunderland Int Festival of Martial Arts 8, is taking place 10 am till 4pm. Twelve to fourteen different marts demonstrated throughout the day plus much more - great day - lots of fun and excitement - great people donating their skill, experience and time free - all proceeds to Cancer Research UK. Say hi - i'm the old bloke with the microphone and maybe a flurry of activity later in the day.:)

Thanks Peter, unfortunately am at work that day for the whole day :(
wish could go and check it out.
There's also SENI08 on the 26/27th. more than likely will be going on the 27th ;)

[ChrisHein]

"Skateboarding is an activity in which you move quickly over hard surfaces. It can lead to injuries that range from minor cuts and bruises to catastrophic brain injury. Each year in the United States, skateboarding injuries cause about 50,000 visits to emergency departments and 1500 children and adolescents to be hospitalized. (Source: AAP, March 2002. )



How many kids skate? a million? How many of those 1500 lead to death? I'm not disputing that skateboarding is dangerous, and I'm not saying that Aikido can't kill. I'm just saying it's not likely. Just like it's not likely you'll bump your head on a table corner and die, possible but not probable.

[Cyrijl]

There is just the fundamental flaw in the OP thinking which I see in every thread like this.

If you can't control your technique because they are so deadly then you have a problem since everytime you hrow someone they would die. I mean, even beginners get thrown who do not know how to fall properly.

You should have no problem sparring someone under an MMA ruleset since many MMA-ers also take judo, wrestling or other grappling type of training.

You see many hard throws all the time without many deaths.
And, after my experiences with that, and just my thoughts on Aikido in general, i can't get away from the thoughts of how deadly Aikido really is. I mean, in sparring with other martial arts, you hit, punch and kick them to make your point (and yes you can do that as well with Aikido),
You can kill with punching as well. But you would hope that you'd be able to determine the level of force necessary to repel the threat without going (clearly) over the line.

but with our chosen Martial Art, if you spar with someone else from another MA, I believe that the only way to really win (by using Aikido) would be to severely injure them.

This is why you need a certain level of control. (But, this is no different than Judo.) If I get you in an arm bar, are you not going to give up until I break something? If so, you are either foolish or a jerk, if not, then why do you assume the other person won't admit defeat? Both sides need to respect the tap.


I just don't see a standing submission happening too often in sparring, they wont want to give up, you would have to really crank something on them and break something to win, that, or throw them to the floor; but even with that, you can most certainly, and probably would injure them.
Most standing locks can be gotten out of by falling. On the other side standing guillotines are done quite often. The bigger issue is training with people who do not respect the idea of tapping to a submission. But those people end up getting hurt and in some ways deserve it. We have a guy at our gym who is out with some rib problems and a bum arm because he refuses to tap even though people have warned him.

That is an issue with the practioner not the art. I ran into the same problem in aikido.

[Ron Tisdale]

Remember that match where Karo P. kept throwing the other guy on his head? Like 5 times...sssslllllammm!!!!!

Other guy won the fight.

Best,
Ron

[Lyle Bogin]

Yeah, but Ron, come on dude. I would drop freakin' dead from that.

Anything done with enough force and enough bad luck can be deadly. I think in aikido techniques we see the echo, the implication, of the original techniques from which they were derived. And it's kinda scary.

[Cyrijl]

I didn't want to post this because of the recent death but:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/04/18/cheerleader_hurt_in_contest_dies//

This is a story about a recent death in cheerleading. I mean, you can do anything and die from it. But we don't make generalizations from the exceptions. The OP gives the sense that even trying to spar with aikido would result in such a tragedy. That may not have been his intent, but that is how I interpreted it.

[Ron Tisdale]

Hey Lyle, yeah, I might not die, but I can guarantee I wouldn't have won that fight! :D I wouldn't have lasted 3 rounds, K Man would have eaten me like a trout! ;)

But that's not my point really...the fact is, there are people (even untrained ones) who can take unbelievable pressure to unbelievable places. This is not to say that bad things can't or don't happen. Sure they do and can...but it is dangerous to count on it.

It reminds me of going to train in a dojo as a white belt (not to fool anyone, just to be polite as I got familiar with the environment...the teacher knew my rank). One student was put off by how hard I was to throw with shiho...I took the falls, but really slowly...under my own control, and he knew it. His response was "I can rip your shoulder out with this throw". My response was "oh really??" ;)

And someone else's response to me saying the same thing would be just like my response to that shite. In other words, sure, shiho can be used by SOME people against SOME other people to rip someone's shoulder out...but WHO is doing the ripping is really up to the two individuals involved. That particular individual was not going to be doing any ripping. :(

But shiho can be deadly...right? ;)

Best,
Ron

[Walter Martindale]

May i ask what exactly you were trying to say by this?

rei,
-morgan

This is taking the thread back a bit...

I'm not sure, because I'm not Mr. Tao, however, I've been itching to post something about the difference between "learning" and "training" and "practice" on one of these forums... I'm not going to refer to the first part of Mr. Tao's post, but to the latter.

To my mind, "learning" is when you're sorting out some of the basic movements and principles - where you're in a "cognitive" or "associative" phase of learning a movement - you're still thinking, and probably working a little slower than "real" speed. Breaking down movements, putting them together, identifying weak spots, strengths, etc. As the "learning" progresses, things smooth out, you reduce co-activation of antagonist muscles (for example, when "cutting" downwards, your arm flexor muscles aren't fighting against your arm extensor muscles), and you need to think less to execute a movement, movement principle, or technique.
"Training" - once something is learned, "training" is essentially putting in mileage. Here in Kiwi they call it the "hard yards" - piling up the volume. Or - Where a "learning" session might be 45 minutes long with breaks to stop, review what you've done, try something else, question how to do things better, a "training" session is continuous, no breaks, for up to 90 minutes, in an aerobic activity, or "intermittent" with bits of "go very hard for anywhere between 60 and 600 seconds, take time off to recover" where recovery time is dictated by the energy system being trained and the intensity of the work, expressed as a percentage of maximum.

In an aikido context - at one dojo, we had the possibility of training up to 3/day - I attended 3/week in the evenings, sometimes 2/week at lunch, and sometimes 1-2 on weekends. That's the closest I ever got to "training" in Aikido. We had a fellow who attended 3/day 3/week, 1/day the other days, for a couple of months. Progress? Heaps of progress.

Training also involves some cross training - extra sessions devoted to aerobic fitness, strength, flexibility, other skills development.

Still another aspect of training is planning - people who are seriously training, plan their week, their skill development, their fitness development, so that their recovery and loading are timed appropriately to some end goal. If it's not planned, then it's not training, it's "regular exercise" or "an addiction" or something, but it's not "training". (incidentally, as a staff person for a national rowing federation, I see people training 3 times M and T, twice W, 3 times Th and Fr, and racing Saturday, with Sunday off, with racing in Europe through June, with the ultimate goal of performance at the Olympics - some are about 1/3 of their way through preparing for the London 2012 Olympics, while others may retire after Beijing.

One other aspect of "learning vs. training" - the folks who write our coaching manuals dig up interesting research (sorry, not going to cite authors) on how people "master" anything they try to learn. Essentially, whether it's musical instrument, language, sports skill, or martial art, it takes about 10,000 hours of deliberate practice to master what they're learning. By deliberate practice, one means practice where you're switched on, paying attention to the feel, flow, movement, thought, etc., of the skill being practiced - not where you're doing rote repetition. How many years, practicing 3-4 times per week with 90 to 120 minute sessions, will it take for a beginner in Aikido to put in 10,000 hours of deliberate practice? Subtract, of course, the time you spend warming up, stretching, and going through the same-old, same-old exercises (or, are you switched on during those exercises, and actually developing something while doing them) - How many dojo sensei, and how many posters on this forum have actually put in their 10,000 hours? I know for sure that I haven't, but then I won't claim to be a sensei, and probably won't consider claiming that as long as I live, which may not be long enough to attain 10,000 hours.

Currently, I "practice" up to 2/week - that's when our dojo has time available and when I'm in town on a practice day. I "exercise" by doing some rowing (on a machine, unfortunately, don't own a skiff), some bicycling, some weights, and some target practice - not that target practice does much for the fitness. Much of what we do in Aikido, unfortunately, falls into this "practice" and "regular exercise" category... Why are/were the Japanese shihan so good? They LIVED aikido for years and years, getting their 10,000 hours of deliberate practice, and then continuing, probably for 10,000 more..

Will any of this "practice" or former "training" that I've done ever work in a "situation" - I'd rather not find out, but I sure hope so.

That's a brief summary of my thoughts about what's training, Aikido, the Martial Art was the start of this thread... I hope I haven't wandered too far OT.
W

[mickeygelum]

:eek: ....:confused: .....evileyes

[Ron Tisdale]

Come now Mickey, tell us what you REALLY think...
:D

b,
r

[dragonteeth]

I agree with a lot of what has been said, but going back to Morgan's original post, I can really see where he's coming from too. It's pretty obvious when you're sparring in karate if someone is pulling a punch. We've all been hit, we all know what that hit would do, and unless we are going all out full contact for the KO we count that as a point and go on. It's harder to do that with an aikido throw if someone from another art doesn't comprehend what is being pulled for safety reasons. If I'm going to shiho someone that I like, I'm going to keep the hand closer to the shoulder and the elbow at about a 45-90 degree more acute angle than I would if I were doing it "for real." Even if I really get their center and take them down, a judo/bjj practitioner is going to be well into "so what" land if they don't comprehend the damage potential of the not-so-warm-and-fuzzy version. The only way around that is to open the angle up a little and let them feel a little tweak in the shoulder. However, that could really have a very bad ending if either the aikidoka has poor technique control or if the non-aikidoka tries to roll out to the side and chooses the wrong direction.

What would be really cool is to have a reactive body suit that would limit motion in joints and muscles that would have been damaged as a result of a technique or serious strike. That way you could throw them using the kid glove version but they'd still have the limitations of motion that would come if you had done the iron fist one.

[eyrie]

I just didn't think it was very relative to what i was saying and asking. It is far more relevant than you can possibly realize... ;)

As others have already noted, Aikido is no more or less brutal or devastating than any other martial art. I don't want to take the discussion down this track because the fundamental issue with your question is the inherent differences between 2 incompatible training methods and a situation where someone is really trying to hurt you.

Firstly, Aikido waza is primarily a learning/training method - just as kata is to karate. The purpose of which is to change the way you move and respond, as well as being a mnemonic template of sorts, for knowledge transmission.

Sparring is a training/practice method - primarily for the purposes of exploration of such concepts, as ma-ai, timing, and more importantly, suki (yours and theirs), in a dynamic format. This is no different to point sparring (non/semi/full contact), except for differences in rules and the rationale for having those rules.

It is the presence of rules, points and scoring (which implies winners and losers), which make sparring/submission grappling/wrestling, and other similar pursuits, a sport adaptation of simulated combat. In aikido waza, the implied winner and loser is an arbitrary distinction - strictly for teaching and learning purposes.

However, it is an entirely different proposition, when faced with a situation where someone is really trying to hurt you - there are no rules, no points, no winners and losers, in self-defence. You do what you need to do to evade, escape or worse come to worse, defend yourself. I'm not talking about NHB/Octagon "rules" here. I'm talking about the real possibility that you may end up dead, or worse yet, in a vegetative comatose state from having your head kicked in. And if you're talking about "fighting" then someone is going to get hurt... and that someone might well be you.

The point is, waza is not sparring, sparring is not fighting, and fighting is not self-defence. Aikido is not about winning and losing. It's not about point scoring and it's certainly not about squaring-off and fighting toe-to-toe. The difference is, in a life or death situation, you'd want to avoid any sort of conflict at all costs, and extricate yourself at the earliest possible convenience, or if all else fails, end the conflict as quickly as possible. Fighting toe-to-toe, hoping to apply a standing or ground submission is a foolhardy proposition.

Learning is one thing. Training is another. Practice is bringing it together. Application is what you do when you need to.

Can Aikido be a deadly and effective martial art? You betcha.... but so can anything else that you have learnt, trained in, practiced and know how and when to apply.

Does that make it clearer?

[mwible]

I agree with a lot of what has been said, but going back to Morgan's original post, I can really see where he's coming from too. It's pretty obvious when you're sparring in karate if someone is pulling a punch. We've all been hit, we all know what that hit would do, and unless we are going all out full contact for the KO we count that as a point and go on. It's harder to do that with an aikido throw if someone from another art doesn't comprehend what is being pulled for safety reasons. If I'm going to shiho someone that I like, I'm going to keep the hand closer to the shoulder and the elbow at about a 45-90 degree more acute angle than I would if I were doing it "for real." Even if I really get their center and take them down, a judo/bjj practitioner is going to be well into "so what" land if they don't comprehend the damage potential of the not-so-warm-and-fuzzy version. The only way around that is to open the angle up a little and let them feel a little tweak in the shoulder. However, that could really have a very bad ending if either the aikidoka has poor technique control or if the non-aikidoka tries to roll out to the side and chooses the wrong direction.

What would be really cool is to have a reactive body suit that would limit motion in joints and muscles that would have been damaged as a result of a technique or serious strike. That way you could throw them using the kid glove version but they'd still have the limitations of motion that would come if you had done the iron fist one.

Thank you for understanding what i was trying to say/ thinking, and explaining it better than i did :D

[marky musashi]

o'sensei said aikido is 99% atemi. having said that strikes to the throat can def. kill a person. you can crush the larnyx . so yes dan the video that you posted shows tecniques that can be deadly if atemi is applied. ...even your 1st 5th kyu requirement technique , shomenuchi ikkyo shows many openings for atemi. uke attacks shomen, nage extends from center meeting ukes arms, right there ukes whole rib cage , liver, kidney, groin, neck, head etc, are all wide open for strikes, technique continues nage twist from the hips extending uke arm and shoulder down toward the mat, again the head neck liver are all exsposed. ....i've always been a striker when fighting, especially on the streets. ive been studying aikido for a couple of years now. i realise if aikido is 99% atemi, then i need to practice atemi just as much as everything else. ..

[Mary Eastland]

Do you think that any of the throws in the folowing video clip would be deadly if the ukes did not know ukemi?

http://www.aikidoedintorni.com/Video/m_tissier_bercy_08.htm

David
The throws in this video would never happen if the ukes didn't know ukemi.
Mary

[dps]

The throws in this video would never happen if the ukes didn't know ukemi.
Mary

Why not?

David

[mickeygelum]

The throws in this video would never happen if the ukes didn't know ukemi.

Mary Eastland

Ms. Eastland, you are correct. An untrained individual will have quite a different result. Train well...:)

Why not?

David Skaggs


Even though Tissier Shihan is a great aikidoka, the lull to insure a safe recovery for his uke(s), he can not complete the technique realistically.

Taisabaki to kuzushi, is validated in the movement of ukes' body. Yet, that small lapse between kuzushi and ukemi, is the safety valve for practice. I am of the opinion that too many people believe kuzushi is ukemi. When in fact, ukemi is the result of kuzushi. Nage/tori is in complete control, poorly or greatly executed ukemi is upon the experience of both nage and uke in this particular instance.

Being my student, I am surprised that you asked this question.

Mickey

[dps]

An untrained individual will have quite a different result....Taisabaki to kuzushi, is validated in the movement of ukes' body. Yet, that small lapse between kuzushi and ukemi, is the safety valve for practice. I am of the opinion that too many people believe kuzushi is ukemi. When in fact, ukemi is the result of kuzushi. Nage/tori is in complete control, poorly or greatly executed ukemi is upon the experience of both nage and uke in this particular instance.

That is my point. An untrained uke most likely won't get back up.

David

[eyrie]

With all due respect, an untrained uke would neither attack in such fashion nor respond in such manner as demonstrated in the video. And the "nice" dojo demonstration techniques would look nothing like that. Therefore, to presume that such techniques (as demonstrated) are "deadly" if an opponent does not know how to receive, is at best, a hypothetical conjecture.

For starters, the demonstrated throws require a certain level of complicit cooperation and confidence on uke's part to complete. So any discussion of the lethality of such throws, as demonstrated, is based on an erroneous assumption that an opponent is going to play the same way, much less fall down and not get back up in any way.

These throwing techniques, in particular, would have to be modified in ways that would result in bodily "destruction", either prior to the throw down or on being thrown. Whilst, the more experienced practitioner might be able to "see" where and how these might occur, I would suggest that this is not plainly obvious to the novice and uninitiated.

By "modified", I don't mean radical modification that turns such techniques into something other than aikido. The modifications, I speak of, are firmly based on the fundamental principles of aikido, and a rudimentary working knowledge of human physiology and kinesiology. As Lori alluded to above, sometimes a slight change in body angle (yours or theirs) makes all the difference.

So, to me, any discussion regarding whether Aikido techniques can be or have to be brutal is moot. IMHO, there is no "technique" in Aikido that does not have an equivalent or similar counterpart in some other martial art. The fundamental issue is whether one has the ability and working knowledge of the basic principles to apply an "effective technique" in any given situation. And given the situation, whether to apply it in such a manner as to result in injury or fatality is largely dependent on circumstances, situational context and the ability to pull it off.

[Michael Douglas]

Quoting this -again- because I like it : A good example is the kotogeshi. Every time I have used this in bjj my opponent does not take a front flippy breakfall. Instead, he flops out to the ground to take pressure off the wrist. A lot of aikidoka see the kotogeshi as a hard dangerous fall when really they are escaping the wrist lock by jumping into a nice breakfall for effect.

If anyone is in the Sunderland area (north east england) on Sat the 26th april 2008. please call in to The Seaburn Centre where the Sunderland Int Festival of Martial Arts 8, is taking place 10 am till 4pm. Twelve to fourteen different marts demonstrated throughout the day plus much more - great day - lots of fun and excitement - great people donating their skill, experience and time free - all proceeds to Cancer Research UK. Say hi - i'm the old bloke with the microphone and maybe a flurry of activity later in the day.:)
Might be able to make that one ...

[gregg block]

Jrry Teo wrote "The best thing about Aikido is, at its highest level one is able to control his opponent without inflicting injury on the opponent.I suppose ultimately this is the goal that all of us hope to achieve."

This would depend on the opponent. This would not be possible against a skilled opponent. We should not have delusions of grandure. It is unlikely to completely avoid injury in an actual fight. This includes yourself as well as your opponent. Often even the winner loses.

[philippe willaume]

I have only studied Aikido for 2 years (i have prior training in other MA too), but i study diligently and i train hard. So please judge my post accordingly.

Now, for my question and my reason for making a post:

I have thought a lot recently about sparring in general and its affects with Aikido; and YES i have sparred other MA practitioners, including MMA guys (just to experiment). And, after my experiences with that, and just my thoughts on Aikido in general, i can't get away from the thoughts of how deadly Aikido really is. I mean, in sparring with other martial arts, you hit, punch and kick them to make your point (and yes you can do that as well with Aikido), but with our chosen Martial Art, if you spar with someone else from another MA, I believe that the only way to really win (by using Aikido) would be to severely injure them. I just don't see a standing submission happening too often in sparring, they wont want to give up, you would have to really crank something on them and break something to win, that, or throw them to the floor; but even with that, you can most certainly, and probably would injure them.

I am not saying that Aikido is meant to be brutal and hurtful, I'm just saying that from my point of view, that is how it would have to end up if someone was really trying to injure you, or if your only objective was to win at any cost necessary.

I'm just trying to see if anyone see's my point of view as flat out wrong, or if anyone feels the same way as I do. That Aikido is a very deadly and effective martial art.

Rei, Domo,

-Morgan
hello
Well, being an aiki urukai I would side with the shodothugs.
Waza as we practise have safety built in and the human body is quite resilient

That being said you do have valid point; those techniques can be made so that they are quite dangerous and the nasty side can be found by accident when sparring.
The more experience you have in aikido the less likely it will be.
In the meantime you and you partner can surely agree with a safe point, where he agree that you have him, stop there let him catch up/set himself and continue.
Like that you can practice the before and the after in a relative piece of mind.

phil