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Mike Haber
01-08-2002, 11:06 AM
Could someone please explain what the omote and ura versions of iriminage look like? The two ways that come to mind are the omote form that Steven Seagal uses almost all the time with its direct entry and cut down of uke with no turning of the body and the ura form for which I have seen Isoyama do on his video clip from aikido journal and Saito do as well in his video clip from aikido journal.

If anyone on here could please look at the video of Isoyama from 1983 on aikido journal and look at about the 3rd throw, is that ura iriminage and is the omote form what you see Seagal doing?

TomW
01-08-2002, 12:12 PM
If anyone on here could please look at the video of Isoyama from 1983 on aikido journal and look at about the 3rd throw, is that ura iriminage and is the omote form what you see Seagal doing?

Basically, yes.

Regards,
Tom Wharton

Greg Jennings
01-08-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Mike Haber
Could someone please explain what the omote and ura versions of iriminage look like?

In the Iwama way of naming things, I don't think that there are "omote" and "ura" forms of iriminage. They are all "ura": nage always enters behind uke.

There is a "henka waza" or maybe "tenkan" version where, after entering into shikaku and taking uke's center, nage steps back with his front foot and snaps his hips. This rather than stepping forward with his back foot and snapping his hips.

I hesitate to show this because I can see about 50 mistakes I make, but here is an animated GIF of me throwing my instructor iriminage henka.

http://66.168.242.247/fun_stuff_archive.html

Regards,

akiy
01-08-2002, 01:44 PM
The omote version of iriminage that I know about is very "whirlpool" like. It's probably the easiest done in response to yokomenuchi...

-- Jun

Erik
01-08-2002, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Mike Haber
If anyone on here could please look at the video of Isoyama from 1983 on aikido journal and look at about the 3rd throw, is that ura iriminage and is the omote form what you see Seagal doing?

I would classify that as ura. What I've seen done on tests where omote is requested is a movement directly in front of uke that from the way I learned wouldn't even be called irimi nage. The Greg Jennings clip shows a fairly typical finish. Thing is, I've seen the initial blend get done all kinds of ways and nary a blink from those giving the tests.

From what I've seen of Seagal he does 2 things. One is a pure entry movement using extension which is almost a strike. If I had to classify that I would call it an omote movement because it tends to enter in front of uke although it doesn't have to and so is probably either at times. The other thing he does is what he did in the beginning of Above The Law and I would call that an ura movement. It's been awhile but I seem to recall that he enters to the outside although it's a shorter movement than most.

Greg Jennings
01-08-2002, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by akiy
The omote version of iriminage that I know about is very "whirlpool" like. It's probably the easiest done in response to yokomenuchi...


Would that be "the scarf" deal where uke's striking arm ends up wrapped around their face/neck?

Regards,

Peter Goldsbury
01-08-2002, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings


Would that be "the scarf" deal where uke's striking arm ends up wrapped around their face/neck?

Regards,

Yes. I remember doing it this way in Boston from a katate-dori hold. From gyaku-hamni you would enter forward and to the side, much as you would in shiho-nage. Kote-gaeshi can also be done in a similar way. In ai-hamni, Kanai Shihan usd to spin uke round quite sharply and there was little need to throw. I was taught the form Steven Seagal uses as the basic form; the taisabaki is icing on the cake.

Best regards,

Mike Haber
01-08-2002, 05:20 PM
Is the style of iriminage that Seagal does an omote or irimi form and the way that Isoyama does it in the video on aikido journal the ura form?

guest1234
01-08-2002, 05:51 PM
Hi Mike,

If you haven't figured out by all the lively 'discussions' on various topics, there is pretty much no really hard and fast, right answer (no matter what everyone who is disagreeing says). I have seen the same technique called different names by different styles, and the same name used for completely different techniques by different styles.

Some would instead describe the irimi nage (or kokyu nage) by what you are doing to get uke where he is going (e.g., michibiki irimi, hantai tenkan, ude mawashi, etc), some go w/ omote or ura, some with irimi and tenkan...but you know what? what REALLY matters is what your sensei calls it (I'd ask him or a senior)...unless you are talking with someone from a different style, then you end up doing what we do here, compare notes on what is being done where by whom, until you both go 'Ohhhh' and exchange names for what you are talking about.:D

Mares
01-08-2002, 08:35 PM
Greg,

I actually posted this on another thread but I don't know if you'll find it there, so here it is again.

I understand that you Iwama Style Aikido, please correct me if I'm wrong. But in relation to this, have you seen or know of Saito Shihan doing the direct entry irimi nage 'Seagal Sensei' style? Is this a variation Saito Shihan teaches or shows?

Regards

guest1234
01-08-2002, 09:38 PM
I am not Greg, nor have I spent a lot of time in an Iwama style dojo, nor am I certain I know what Segal Sensei teaches...however...

If you can find a copy of Saito Shihan's Takemusu Aikido Vol. 2 I think the version of irimi nage you are asking about is found on pages 130-131 (from shomenuchi) and on pages 146-147 (from tsuki---this seems to be closest to what everyone is refering to as Segal Sensei's version)...

hope that helps.

Peter Goldsbury
01-08-2002, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Mike Haber
Is the style of iriminage that Seagal does an omote or irimi form and the way that Isoyama does it in the video on aikido journal the ura form?

Well, remember that the names were coined by the deshi of the Founder and not by the Founder himself and the variety might indicate that each deshi either had a different focus, or simply used a different part of the complete technique as a label.

As I said earlier, for me the basic form is where you step behind your partner and throw, without any taisabaki. Is it irimi? Yes. You do enter deeply. Is it omote? Well, you do go behind your partner, but, on the other hand, you throw hin in the direction from which he has come.

I would expect someone examining for a dan grade to know all the various forms discussed in this thread and would call one form 'omote' and other 'ura' only as a label, not as a way of defining the technique. Sometimes the omote / ura distinction is more trouble than it is worth.

Best regards,

Chocolateuke
01-08-2002, 10:59 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike Haber
[B]Could someone please explain what the omote and ura versions of iriminage look like?

Omote is basicaly entering and Ura is basicly going around in the simplest terms

Omote Shionage is going inder the arm while entering while ura is going around the arm get it?? its kinda hard to expain.

Would that be "the scarf" deal where uke' striking arm ends up wrapped around their face/neck?

Yes, in Shizenkai we call this iriminage ura.

Erik
01-08-2002, 11:34 PM
All the irimi nage you could want.

Saito Sensei
http://www.aikidofaq.com/video/saito1.mpg

From an Iwama dojo - Classically done
http://home.att.net/~kona1/4th_kyu/shomen_uchi_iriminage.avi

One Possible Seagal Version (2nd throw) - I would call this omote.
http://www.doshinokai.com/Videos/MOV4.MPG

Seagal - I would call this ura
http://www.aikidofaq.com/video/seagal1.mpg
http://www.aikidofaq.com/video/seagal2.mpg

Scarf Version (third throw, more or less) - This was hard to find - BIG FILE
http://www.aikidofaq.com/video/vks_taigi2.mpg

Just for fun
http://www.aikidofaq.com/video/tissier3.mpg

And one more
http://www.aikidofaq.com/video/goldsbury_backtriangle.mov

wildaikido
01-19-2002, 03:01 AM
Okay according to Kisshomaru Ueshiba in his book Aikido, Omote Irimi nage is done with just irimi tai sabaki and using your HAND on ukes chin. Next, Ura Irimi Nage is done with irimi and tenkan tai sabaki, this time using you elbow at ukes chin. So the omote is the way you see O'sensei do his irimi nage in his old books and Ura is the "standard" way you do Irimi Nage.

Greg Jennings
01-19-2002, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Chocolateuke
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike Haber
[B]Omote is basicaly entering and Ura is basicly going around in the simplest terms

In the way we think of them Omote does not mean entering and Ura does not mean "going around".

Irimi is entering. Turning is something more like "kaiten", although I don't think that is the right translation.

Omote roughy means "that which can be seen" and ura means "that which cannot be seen" or something like that.

Generally, it breaks down into omote techniques are done to uke's front while ura techniques are done to uke's rear. Our syllabus is rather structured and is consistent in this regard.

Originally posted by Mares:
I understand that you Iwama Style Aikido, please correct me if I'm wrong. But in relation to this, have you seen or know of Saito Shihan doing the direct entry irimi nage 'Seagal Sensei' style? Is this a variation Saito Shihan teaches or shows?
Do I practice Iwama style? Now that is an interesting question! I guess the answer is a qualified yes. Having never been to Iwama, I'd hate to just say "yes".

Feel free to e-mail me off-list if you're interested.

I have absolutely seen, first hand, Saito Sensei do the direct entry Iriminage a'la Seagal Sensei and Isoyama Sensei. Ten guesses where Isoyama Sensei is from????

As Colleen points out, that variation is shown in "The Manual", Takemusu Aikido.

Best Regards,

Erik
01-19-2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
Do I practice Iwama style? Now that is an interesting question!

I've been out with a nasty shoulder injury for the last few months. So, yesterday, for the first time since August I was at the dojo and on the mat.

I had a lot of catching up to do.

Greg Jennings
01-19-2002, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by Erik


I've been out with a nasty shoulder injury for the last few months. So, yesterday, for the first time since August I was at the dojo and on the mat.

I had a lot of catching up to do.

Eric,

Sorry to hear that you've been injured. Glad to hear that you're back on the mat.

Best,