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JAMJTX
04-03-2008, 02:33 PM
This thought is something that has been bouncing around in my head for some time. It came to surface again, triggered by a thread on a Yoshinkan board.

The thread described a seminar by a senior teacher who demonstrated a technique where atleast 2 uke picked him up. He then began to project his ki downward ("made himself heavy" as I call it). The uke could no longer hold him up and fell themselves. As was discussed in that thread, this type of thing is not generally taught in Yoshinkan.

It does appear to be something carried over from Daito Ryu. I have seen Okamoto Sensei do similar things in his DVD.

This is generally described as being a "secret technique". Which is something that will be taght only to very advanced seniors who have been training for a very long tim.

I haven't tried this exact technique yet, but I will soon. I think that with only 2 uke I can probably make it work based on things that I learned in Taichi.

My thought is that, in a number of cases, the "secret techniques" and "advanced principles" of Aikido and Daito Ryu such as this, are often found in the more fundamental teachings of Taichi.

Which makes me wonder why some still use the term "secret technique". It's not a very goo dsecrete if it's the foundation of an art that millions of people outside of your school are practicing.

Joseph Madden
04-03-2008, 08:32 PM
It's not a secret technique, but rather a trick. Anybody can do it. The trick lies in getting the uke to move the way you want them to. One minute they can pick you up. After they stop and put you down you then ask them to try it again. This has an effect on uke at an unconscious level by altering how they have perceived you. When they go to pick you up a second time they are unable to do it. Its the same fundamental as the straight arm bend.:freaky:

Joseph Madden
04-03-2008, 08:37 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DT-a33A7Aa8

Here's a link to the trick.

MM
04-04-2008, 06:42 AM
It's not a secret technique, but rather a trick. Anybody can do it. The trick lies in getting the uke to move the way you want them to. One minute they can pick you up. After they stop and put you down you then ask them to try it again. This has an effect on uke at an unconscious level by altering how they have perceived you. When they go to pick you up a second time they are unable to do it. Its the same fundamental as the straight arm bend.:freaky:

Joseph,
The exercise isn't as you described above. Reread the original post. The exercise is that someone is held up already by 2 people. Then, that person makes themselves heavy and the 2 people find that they cannot hold him/her up any longer.

But, I do agree it isn't an advanced technique. I tried this with two people and could get it to work -- once. :) They lifted me and were like, okay, he's heavy (I'm 190 pounds) but manageable. Then I worked at "getting heavy" and things changed. They said I felt like I tripled my weight and they couldn't hold me up for long.

For me, as I was in the air, I initially felt disconnected from the ground. Then, I realized I could actually "ground" myself through the two of them. Sort of like treating each of them as one of my legs. Then I worked to bring the ground and my center together. Sort of something like that. Hard to explain.

Mark

MM
04-04-2008, 06:47 AM
This thought is something that has been bouncing around in my head for some time. It came to surface again, triggered by a thread on a Yoshinkan board.

The thread described a seminar by a senior teacher who demonstrated a technique where atleast 2 uke picked him up. He then began to project his ki downward ("made himself heavy" as I call it). The uke could no longer hold him up and fell themselves. As was discussed in that thread, this type of thing is not generally taught in Yoshinkan.

It does appear to be something carried over from Daito Ryu. I have seen Okamoto Sensei do similar things in his DVD.

This is generally described as being a "secret technique". Which is something that will be taght only to very advanced seniors who have been training for a very long tim.

I haven't tried this exact technique yet, but I will soon. I think that with only 2 uke I can probably make it work based on things that I learned in Taichi.

My thought is that, in a number of cases, the "secret techniques" and "advanced principles" of Aikido and Daito Ryu such as this, are often found in the more fundamental teachings of Taichi.

Which makes me wonder why some still use the term "secret technique". It's not a very goo dsecrete if it's the foundation of an art that millions of people outside of your school are practicing.

Jim,
Yes, there is a youtube of Okamoto sensei doing this very thing. Only he has quite a few uke under him. :)

It's not really that far fetched to think that some Yoshinkan people are doing this. After all, Shioda studied Daito ryu under two teachers and this is something that you see in Daito ryu.

The reason, IMO, that it's called secret is because they are working with "aiki" as taught by Takeda down through his students. And Takeda told them not to teach it to everyone. Takeda was tough and scary. I really don't think his students wanted to upset him all that much, so they did what they were told. Hence, secret and advanced.

If you find it in taichi, that's great. Personally, I think it's not commonly taught in taichi either. But, that's just my opinion.

Mark

Blake Holtzen
04-04-2008, 09:49 AM
Jim,
Yes, there is a youtube of Okamoto sensei doing this very thing. Only he has quite a few uke under him. :)

It's not really that far fetched to think that some Yoshinkan people are doing this. After all, Shioda studied Daito ryu under two teachers and this is something that you see in Daito ryu.

The reason, IMO, that it's called secret is because they are working with "aiki" as taught by Takeda down through his students. And Takeda told them not to teach it to everyone. Takeda was tough and scary. I really don't think his students wanted to upset him all that much, so they did what they were told. Hence, secret and advanced.

If you find it in taichi, that's great. Personally, I think it's not commonly taught in taichi either. But, that's just my opinion.

Mark

It seems to me that the heavy weighted thing is a specialty of shioda. Many of his dvds show him simply touching a student then a small sudden "heavy weighting" and student faceplants.

As far as this skill being prevalent in taichi, I think it is also quite rare, in as far as it is demonstratable and not just lipservice. Millions of people practice taichi, but not real (martial) taichi. It is more like old man's exercise with no structure and certainly no internal mechanics.

While at a seminar, I remember Fong Ha (Yang style taichi) asking me to push him on the chest as hard as I can while he stands in a normal feet parallel stance. I am quite strong but of course I could not move him a nudge. And to further insult my pride, he let me push on him for about a min or so while he explained to the class what he was doing and what I was doing wrong.

Interesting to say the least.

Take Care,

-Blake

ChrisMoses
04-04-2008, 10:51 AM
This is pretty common in Tohei influenced schools too. There's a number of ways to do it. I could do it years ago when I really didn't have a clue. :)

Upyu
04-04-2008, 10:56 AM
And here we come full circle yet again...

Murray is right, it's a skill that needs to be developed...and it's one anyone should be able to do if they've trained properly for a year or so.

Blake:
The feet parallel thing is difficult, but its more a matter of conditioning and skill. I can do it and handle a certain degree of pressure before my connections can't take it anymore, but the skill involved isn't that high a level. It's simple grounding/peng path/kokyu skill whatever you want to call it ;)

JAMJTX
04-04-2008, 01:35 PM
Thanks for your input and comments.

I don't think I can do it as well as Okamoto Sensei with his gang of uke. But I will try it with 2.

I have done it with one, having him pick me up first and then take a better stance and try again. This is always day one with new taichi and aikido students. It's pretty simple. We then use the same principle to prevent the application of a "full nelson", which brings in some real world self defense.

If I can get it to work with 2 uke I'll consider posting a video to youtube and of course put myself in for that 10th Dan, Ki Master certificate from the local soke board.

Chris Parkerson
04-21-2008, 11:13 PM
This is pretty common in Tohei influenced schools too. There's a number of ways to do it. I could do it years ago when I really didn't have a clue. :)

chris,

I too am a bit too heavy and broken up to play with this technique. But I do believe simple physics gives us the foundation and Daito arts gives us the method. Please advise if you resonate with the following from your experience.

Daito throws are often accomplished not by lifting an uke as seen in Quito Ryu/modern Judo. Many techniques are accomplished by "weighting" uke's spine by relaxing your body sequentially. Sequenced relaxation builds momentum within your body.

When uke's spine is compressed, you now have a connection to his center of gravity. Small shifts of your center can make uke's compressed spine become unstable. Once unstable, the load, (your relaxed mass) moves his center outside he base and he falls.

Multiple-uke Daito throwing and throwing with portions of your body (other than your hands) is a necessary prerequisite. Finally, you learn to do it in a prone position rather than a standing one.

It is just physics. Relaxation. And a smidgen of mental focus points.

Mike Sigman
04-22-2008, 09:10 AM
I think it's angular momentum. :D

Or not!

MIke

tuturuhan
04-22-2008, 10:39 AM
"Quote: The reason you haven't been taught what to do with your qi when you
fajing is that fajing breaks the qi connection as the jing is emitted.
It's a matter of store and release. You store the jing and qi and then
lose them for a second when you emit them until you can store them
again. This is why I don't consider "fa"-ing anything to be more than
intermediate level. IMO fajing, etc. isn't high level stuff." by the "Wonderous Channel" Dave Chesser (Formosa Neijia Blog)

The Eye of the Strike

On a very very basic level, this is the corkscrew of the reverse punch (e.g. karate punch). The beginner punches with his arm. The intermediate punches with his wrist. The advanced guy knows how to punch with his palm and finger tips. Fa jing is being emitted.

However, without this level, one can never learn to fight. The focus of the punch, its accuracy and its speed of delivery allow the karate man to fight within six months. Most gung fu men take at least ten years before they figure out how to fight.

At a series of intermediate levels (and there are many many levels of intermediate and just as many levels of high quality) one begins to understand the idea of "natural resources". You learn that using your punch "full force" all the time depletes energy. So, you begin to punch with just the appropriate power necessary to accomplish the purpose of taking out your opponent. Next, you start to learn that "going too fast and too hard" must be unlearned if you want to be "more efficient". You start to understand the circle and how energy is recycled. It's then that you become capable of going incredibly fast or powerful if need be.

At higher levels, you being to tune yourself to your nervous system and your opponent's electrical and hydraulic systems. You begin to employ knowledge of mirroring neurons and how the three brains control the body and how the fourth brain in the stomach communicates messages. This all becomes intuitive. The spirits speak to you.

Then you take the simple which has become complex and simplify. Over the years you discover that the process is endless. It spirals over and over from simple to complex, from complex back to simple.

As such, the adept throws his "simple punch" and to the "many leveled intermediates" it looks like the punch of a beginner. Only when the intermediate learns to give up his beliefs and complexity does he begin to develop "the eye" for recognizing the adept.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-22-2008, 10:49 AM
You begin to employ knowledge of mirroring neurons and how the three brains control the body and how the fourth brain in the stomach communicates messages. This all becomes intuitive. The spirits speak to you.Man, this stuff is harder than I thought. Where's my mirror and how do you use it on a neuron????

:p

tuturuhan
04-22-2008, 10:54 AM
Man, this stuff is harder than I thought. Where's my mirror and how do you use it on a neuron????

:p

Mike,

Its right in front of you. Its called confronting your insecurities.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Chris Parkerson
04-22-2008, 01:21 PM
It seems to me that the heavy weighted thing is a specialty of shioda. Many of his dvds show him simply touching a student then a small sudden "heavy weighting" and student faceplants.
-Blake

I tend to call this "heavy Hands" but it is really not about the hands. It is about sequential relaxation and letting gravity take over. Direction is placed with intent and mild body directioning. Thus, I use a sequence as said before, that the mind directs the body and (when uninhibited by tension) momentum/Ki follows.

Here is a clip of heavy hands dropping uke while he is in motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsYgtrcu1E4

It is a bit harder to do it when uke is static. I have had a lot of success with it over the years and have even developed a form of "vibrating palm" striking from in the process.

I will do a video of it this week if you like. The problem with videoing it is that you have to make the circle so small to accomplish the task that it isn't picked up on video and people will not believe it.

But you can begin the process with a simple small-circle Daito-style throw.

Lightly grasp the two lapels of uke. Relax your body and let the direction come out of your arms like a sword cut. Do not force it. Cut through butter in your mind. I demonstrated this on Sensei Ledyard at Oberland seminar when we were one-on-one and free speaking. (He is certainly a true gentleman.)

Once relaxed, you will feel the compression of the joints. Then move your lower body with a focus on uke's center moving to one of the known throwing points in his posture. Then drop more weight there with your body and your mind. Do not force it, let gravity do it.

Do not watch for the Ikkyo Curve. This is something different as Ikkyo Curve is about a connection the upper torso that places direction with a larger Aikido-style circle. Go directly to the pelvic girdle with compression and then give it direction. Now you are in the small Daito circle. You might see that the shoulders do follow the Ikkyo curve when you do this. But concentrate on this pelvic girdle connection.

You may find that your hips have to "wiggle" in order to accomplish this throw. But the wiggle must effect uke's hips.

In time, you can make this throw so small that you simply drop your hand on a shoulder or lightly place your hand on the shoulder and the whole process occurs. You touch the uke and he falls down.

I will cut some video this week of several stages of the process, unless I start to get blasted by the critics again.

Upyu
04-23-2008, 08:25 PM
"Quote: The reason you haven't been taught what to do with your qi when you
fajing is that fajing breaks the qi connection as the jing is emitted.
It's a matter of store and release. You store the jing and qi and then
lose them for a second when you emit them until you can store them
again. This is why I don't consider "fa"-ing anything to be more than
intermediate level. IMO fajing, etc. isn't high level stuff." by the "Wonderous Channel" Dave Chesser (Formosa Neijia Blog)

On a very very basic level, this is the corkscrew of the reverse punch (e.g. karate punch). The beginner punches with his arm. The intermediate punches with his wrist. The advanced guy knows how to punch with his palm and finger tips. Fa jing is being emitted.


Why don't we talk about the actual mechanics that drive that "basic" but "proper" punch. What's the actual difference between the beginner who uses shoulder, and a bit of a hip drive with leg twist, and the more advanced practicioners?
How does the arm connect to the middle? How do the feet initiate and immediately transfer through the pelvic girdle (kua) up through the middle etc.
How is the back involved in the punch?
Why does the punch itself corkscrew?
What's the difference between simply punching with Jin/Kokyu, as opposed to using "Fa" Jin/Kokyu? ;)

I think if we go down this avenue we could have a more informed debate on matters.

On another note, I'd mention that I know a bunch of Polish dudes doing a northern CMA system from the mainland that would probably not fit into your stated category about gung fu guys.
Only reason "most gung fu" guys can't fight is because
a) They aren't being taught the real mechanics or reason behind their training/conditioning system
b) They don't really fight,(Not to spout matt thornton'S tired old tirade on alive training), and even if they do, since they aren't being taught a) they never progress beyond craptastic kick boxing.

We got guys over here in tokyo who have increased the perceived "weight" behind their strikes enormously in under a year. Simply because they know how and what to train. Fighting is a different story though, using advanced body skills under pressure is a whole study onto itself :D

Chris Parkerson
04-23-2008, 08:48 PM
Fighting is a different story though, using advanced body skills under pressure is a whole study onto itself :D

Howdy,

Good to connect with you again. As the old addage says, "Who can be calm until the first blow is struck?"

The path of relaxation is a road less travelled. It often takes someone skilled in wae-gong to really make use of nei-gong.

But, I do believe that intent and a bit of soft relaxed motion trumps fa-jing. Momentum can be developed in a variety of ways. I have tight hips but I can blast someone with my own style of generating momentum. In reality, it is my intention that is doing 90% of the work.

There are a variety of ailments that can hinder the 101A structure study. A club foot, fused disks in the spine, scoliosis, amputations, etc. Yet, each challenged body can find a way to develop internal power.

What say you??

Chris Parkerson
04-23-2008, 09:21 PM
=Robert John;203150]And here we come full circle yet again... Murray is right, it's a skill that needs to be developed...and it's one anyone should be able to do if they've trained properly for a year or so.

Can you describe how Tohei and Okamoto do their "heavy body"
technique that collapses multiple uke that are holding him up in the air?

Does training for a year in "structure training" as you do make this skill easy to do?

What is your "building block" process? I shared mine and will supply a video to support my thesis this weekend.

tuturuhan
04-23-2008, 09:31 PM
mechanics, to physics, analog to digital, particle to wave

Upyu
04-23-2008, 10:52 PM
Can you describe how Tohei and Okamoto do their "heavy body"
technique that collapses multiple uke that are holding him up in the air?

Does training for a year in "structure training" as you do make this skill easy to do?

What is your "building block" process? I shared mine and will supply a video to support my thesis this weekend.

I don't think Tohei ever did the multiple uke collapse gimmick, but the principle is still the same.

Training for a year in "structure" training certainly makes you "heavier" to the touch, simply because the body begins to understand some more fundamental concepts of balance etc.
One "instant results" trick I like to show occasionally, is where you have someone lift you up from the chest.
The first time, they're not aware of the upper center and easy to lift up.
The second time, you have them put a little bit of relaxed tension in the upper center (in the sternum) and maintain an opposed top to bottom tension (but still relaxed). They become immediately harder to lift up, because they're maintaining the upper center stability.
If you start to put in lower center/dantien usage etc, then they become even harder to lift. (basically its an easier version of tohei's unliftable body)

This directly correlates to okamoto's parlor tricks.
The overall idea is that you don't manipulate Uke themselves.
Rather since the Uke are holding you up, you and them are essentially one "unit." This means that you can access the "ground" through them and place your "jin" force whereever you want. In this case you place it in a "hole" in one Uke (best place is perpendicular to the feet), destabilizing the entire ring of Uke, causing them to collapse. To them if feels like you suddenly became heavier, but that's because their balance is completely shot without them realizing it.

The "building block" process is outlined on the website, and I think Tim Fong did a good general overview of our approach on the aikido journal website
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=699

I say "our approach", though really its not "original" in a pure sense.
Its simply an "approach" to developing qi/jin skill.
Plenty of other CMA use similar theory/approach in developing these skills ;)

Chris Parkerson
04-23-2008, 11:16 PM
great article. I am hoping to attend his seminar but a project in SF might interfere.

Regarding the technique.... Wiggling or wrything without structural heaviness can make a group collapse some of the time.
structural heaviness alone can make a group collapse some of the time.
to do it 100% of the time requires Dairo-based kuzushi skills. I agree with your term "destabilize". I used it two months ago on a different topic. Kuzushi, to me, has several aspects that must be isolated and studied. Raising the center of gravity is one aspect of destabilization. But it is often misunderstood as if uke must be lifted. There is yang where yin is present. Two sides of a coin. Of I weight the front side of uke's torso(yin), his center raises along his back (yang). Side to side is the same. Of course, messing with the "four levels" is the simple method of festa ilization. Kuzushi ultimately includes the loss of balance. Balance and stability are two different things. Both are part of taking kuzushi. Reduction of someone's base is also part of kuzushi.

tuturuhan
04-24-2008, 12:38 AM
I don't think Tohei ever did the multiple uke collapse gimmick, but the principle is still the same.

Training for a year in "structure" training certainly makes you "heavier" to the touch, simply because the body begins to understand some more fundamental concepts of balance etc.
One "instant results" trick I like to show occasionally, is where you have someone lift you up from the chest.

I say "our approach", though really its not "original" in a pure sense.
Its simply an "approach" to developing qi/jin skill.
Plenty of other CMA use similar theory/approach in developing these skills ;)

Do you have a video of the skills you are talking about. I would love to get a visual interpretation.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Upyu
04-24-2008, 03:30 AM
Do you have a video of the skills you are talking about. I would love to get a visual interpretation.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Hi Joseph,

I don't have vids demoing those specific circumstances, but the skills being used are the same ones used to make kicks/punches heavier with less effort.

Best reference would be some of Ark's vids which are floating around on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAJVQMCWeOA

I have a craptastic one of myself from almost 2 years ago here doing kicks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk-HLVl9LNo

tuturuhan
04-24-2008, 08:05 AM
Robert,

Excellent interpretations...as to taking the "force" and transferring it to the leg or to the fist. Most "recreational" martial artists never reach this level.

However, the box has many limitations. From what I see there is an external fa jing (influenced by chinese martial arts...this has taken place for over 1000 years). Though the "box" is certainly uniquely japanese in thought, motion and application. The ability to fluidlly adapt gives one the mobility to be "water".

In other words, by taking "form and shape", one must be aware of the weaknesses of the "form" one takes. The architecture though seemingly "beautiful and strong" has weaknesses hidden by the skin (culture, belief, application) of the building. Essentially, the method you and the other martial artist are performing is still essentially external martial arts. (Of course, from my perspective/opinion/experience...yin/internal/energy martial art is the "grand ultimate fist"). As such, the internalist, "blends, grasps and manipulates by aborbing the "force" of his opponent and then "emits" with focus, rather than "unleashing" his strikes.

Though, there is no doubt in my mind you can "fight". You have gone from traditional, to honing the skill, to incorporating other influences and than applying to MMA. The physical and the intellectual are no doubt the components that have brought you to your current level. The physical, the intellectual and the spiritual still have many lifetimes to congeal for you and for the rest of us.

But, to incorporate the nuances that lead to jin (small explosive power), the "big structure" must be "parted with" (at least for now). In your leg technique you are using "dead weight" to increase the power and velocity of the strike to the point of contact. It is a bit like a "chain and ball". Yet, the rest of the body is stuck in the structure of the "box". The hope is to make the entire body unified and yet disconnected at will. The hope is to regulate the strike. Instead, of using full force every single time...one should adjust to use only "necessary and appropriate" force so as to recycle one's natural resources (e.g. I don't need to thrust with the knife, I can simply use the razor of the blade to gently slice)

Thank you for the interaction. Very nice technique.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Upyu
04-24-2008, 07:07 PM
Robert,

Excellent interpretations...as to taking the "force" and transferring it to the leg or to the fist. Most "recreational" martial artists never reach this level.

However, the box has many limitations. From what I see there is an external fa jing (influenced by chinese martial arts...this has taken place for over 1000 years). Though the "box" is certainly uniquely japanese in thought, motion and application. The ability to fluidlly adapt gives one the mobility to be "water".
<snip>

But, to incorporate the nuances that lead to jin (small explosive power), the "big structure" must be "parted with" (at least for now). In your leg technique you are using "dead weight" to increase the power and velocity of the strike to the point of contact. It is a bit like a "chain and ball". Yet, the rest of the body is stuck in the structure of the "box". The hope is to make the entire body unified and yet disconnected at will. The hope is to regulate the strike. Instead, of using full force every single time...one should adjust to use only "necessary and appropriate" force so as to recycle one's natural resources (e.g. I don't need to thrust with the knife, I can simply use the razor of the blade to gently slice)

Thank you for the interaction. Very nice technique.



Hi Joseph,

Thanks for the feedback.
A couple of things, and I hope you realize I'm not dismissing what you said, since I do value advice given by people with more practical experience than myself.

Anyways couple of things,

First quibble:
While I hate to get into debates over language in a topic about body skills,
"Jin" doesn't mean, and never has meant, from my experience, nor does it logically mean "small explosive power."
"Fa" means explosive. "Jin" is simply power. In this case power of a different sort which is typically differentiated from "Li."
In essence Fajing typically refers to a "store-release" type of power generation, and I wasn't using any kind of "storing" in my power generation.
Even though the chinese will use jin in various expressions, "Fa-jin", "An jin", "Liu jin" etc etc, from my experience they still refer to only "one" jin, and simply refer to the different uses of that jin.

Feel free to correct me if you think the above interpretation is out of whack.

2nd:
I'm not using "dead weight" at all. Either that or our definitions of "dead weight" are different.
I was using very little power at all to achieve the affect shown, and it only had that much of an effect because my partner was used to "bracing" against the kicks.
Moreoever I was only demonstrating the importance of keeping an opposing "top - to - bottom" and "side to side" contradiction of forces in place as you move (in reality there should be six, but I didn't want to get into that).
There was no manipulation of the middle occurring, nor any use of the koshi/small of the back etc.

Maybe you could elaborate on how you train six directional forces?

3d:
Maybe we should clarify our definitions of "jin."
Mine is that it's a connection to the ground that is originated in the feet (partly manipulated by it), largely manipulated by the lower middle (or can be manipulated by the upper middle/chest area) and expressed through the extremities.

Simple expression of Jin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKxmKQqR1cU

Maybe you'd like to take a stab at explaining how the guy in grey is able to hold the guy in "black" down, and what's being worked on?

I mean, we both know what's going on here, but for the benefit of the rest of the board it would be good to have a more senior perspective on what's going on.

Chris Parkerson
04-24-2008, 08:50 PM
Robert John wrote:
This directly correlates to okamoto's parlor tricks.
The overall idea is that you don't manipulate Uke themselves.

This is a new idea to me. But perhaps I mis interpret you.
Most of my Aiki study has been exactly in the area of how every little thing I do specifically effects uke in the following ways:

(1) stability
(2) balance
(3) reduction of his or her base
(4) dropping my weight through one of the throwing points in uke's stance.

Good Daito can be performed slowly, even the aiki-no-jitsu techniques. In fact, I have done two things in my demonstration videos:

1) I make the circles I use larger than I normally do so that people with a good eye can see how my movement effects uke frame-by-frame

2) I demonstrate the technique slowly first and then at a normal speed. I go slow so that the trained eye can see that, just like basic push hands, I do not break my "sticky connection" until it is time to complete the throw.

The baseline Aiki-Daito strategty is that as soon as you touch me or I touch you, you pay a price. I command your balance and stability. From there, I can play with your base and decide how tightly (how small or at what point in space the pivot point will be) I want to throw you or whether I just want to keep you unstable and punish you with atemi or koppo.

Bottom line, I must be relaxed enough to "read" your body from the get go and continue to read your body like a good masseur or chiropractor would. Every jig or jag must be read and responded to like water filling a gap. Smooth and immediate. Not going faster or too slowly, but at the same speed as your body responds to my movement.

So what exactly do you mean when you say, "The overall idea is that you don't manipulate Uke themselves?"

HL1978
04-24-2008, 09:16 PM
So what exactly do you mean when you say, "The overall idea is that you don't manipulate Uke themselves?"

My understanding is that you and uke are to be considered a single body, not two separate independent bodies. (think of a man with four legs, two arms, with the centers connected together.

Mike Sigman has posted a figure of this somewhere which demonstrates it visually/

Chris Parkerson
04-24-2008, 09:56 PM
My understanding is that you and uke are to be considered a single body, not two separate independent bodies. (think of a man with four legs, two arms, with the centers connected together.

Mike Sigman has posted a figure of this somewhere which demonstrates it visually/

So, how does this model work for you? Are you having some success with it? It is certainly a traditional teaching.

Language is always so difficult to describe body stuff. Let me offer this approach as an alternative model that works for me.

For me, center means "center of gravity". This is very different from many who consider that the center remains inside the pelvic girdle like a 5 gallon can of beans and noodles. A center of gravity has no weight or mass. It is like a quark. And it can move outside the body. Joining centers of gravity is likely an impossibility in Newtonian physics. One center will displace the other quite naturally when the come too close together. When you can feel this activity happening through the connection, techniques are quite light. You are not fighting uke's strength or mass. You are pushing his quark.

(1) My imagery is first to "connect" to the center by way of light compression or extension of uke's joints. In time, we discover that torsion both compresses and extends. But I try to keep people away from torsion until they develop the sensitivity to "read" how linear compression and extension connect to the center. When they feel this, they see how little is really needed. When they are finally introduced to torsion, they do not overdo it. You can over torque and miss the center all together quite easily.

(2) Once connected, I see my center as pushing uke's center from behind. Pulling a center has a bevy of problems related to it. Reducing a long diatribe into one simple idea, when you push uke's center, you can keep his structure moving all at once and you can avoid his strength.

Chris Parkerson
04-24-2008, 10:03 PM
Only in one technique would I actually "join centers" like you have said. That is Nikyo. There, I do not wish to push uke's center very much..... only enough to attain instability in his spine. Then my weight is dropped down the center of the "bridge" that is made between his and my arms. 255 pounds come crashing softly into the middle of the bridge. If I reduce his base and play with his balance, he will likely not get the full fury of my Nikyo. Once the Nikyo pressure crumbles uke's posture, base and balance like an anvil, I then push his center. It is really a whole different type of technique in the Aiki taxonomy.

tuturuhan
04-24-2008, 10:07 PM
Robert,

Definitions do us little good. My definition of water is different from your definition is different from "his" definition. Further, the context of said definition today is different from the definition in context of the 16th century.

The best we can do is observe with our limited sight, hearing that is distorted by other noises and feeling that is restricted by one's ability to be sensitive.

That said, your definitions are probably closer in "text" than my definition of "jin" based on dreams. As such, I concede to your greater knowledge of the language and current definition.

Now as to the tape. My "stab" is the following. The man on the right has displaced the "linkage" of energy, hydralics and communication. The uke cannot use his arms because they have been placed at a less than 80 degree angle. The wrists are also at less than 80 degree angle. Both the elbow angle and the wrist angle block off communication to muscle connection and energy connection. As such, he is helpless.

Finally, notice the "lean" which is typical in Wu style tai chi. He is using gravitational force or "dead weight" to maintain pressure and thus keeps his opponent in limbo.

Ah that was a fun test. More...my friend.

I do beg to differ with you as to your explanations as to your kicking and the disconnect based on your "sword" japanese structure. And of course, given your knowledge of chinese IMA definitions you have certainly been influenced in your current training. My 2 cents is that you must be careful of the "bridges" structurally between chines IMA and japanese martial arts. Most people do not understand that "mixing" techniques, styles, and philosophies is not so simple as it seems.

Though, the man in the first tape is certainly going in a good direction.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriolas

Upyu
04-25-2008, 12:29 AM
Finally, notice the "lean" which is typical in Wu style tai chi. He is using gravitational force or "dead weight" to maintain pressure and thus keeps his opponent in limbo.



So what if I told you that the guy on the left could release his hands, and the person on the right would not pitch forward. Would that still mean he's using dead weight? :)

I agree that definitions can raise a conundrum, but the funny thing is that so far most any chinese guy I've met that has the "skills" hasn't quibbled on the definition of Jin that I presented earlier. Most of them end of describing it in a similar fashion from practical experience. Japanese guys with the skills also define that particular power in a similar manner even without access to the traditional CMA texts ;)

Maybe at some point you could post video of yourself doing something similar? :)

Chris Parkerson
04-25-2008, 05:06 AM
Help me out here Robert John. We appear to be approaching the elephant from opposites polar ends.
This conversation might really begin some great synergy. Liike I said earlier:

Most of my Aiki study has been exactly in the area of how every little thing I do specifically effects uke in the following ways:

(1) stability
(2) balance
(3) reduction of his or her base
(4) dropping my weight through one of the throwing points in uke's stance.

Good Daito can be performed slowly.

Bottom line, I must be relaxed enough to "read" your body. Every jig or jag must be read and responded to like water filling a gap.

So what exactly do you mean when you say, "The overall idea is that you don't manipulate Uke themselves?"[/QUOTE]

Michael Douglas
04-25-2008, 06:33 AM
Simple expression of Jin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKxmKQqR1cU

Maybe you'd like to take a stab at explaining how the guy in grey is able to hold the guy in "black" down, and what's being worked on?
Guy in grey is leaning forward more than black and his arms are straight.
If black pushes more he's just going to push himself back over.
In this example Grey needs NOTHING MORE than his lean and straight arms to keep black back.
Now, if you have a vid of Grey not leaning and with bent arms, and Black leaning more with straight arms, and Grey being able to push Black then post it cos that's the one I'd closely study!

Michael Douglas
04-25-2008, 06:36 AM
So what if I told you that the guy on the left could release his hands, and the person on the right would not pitch forward. Would that still mean he's using dead weight? :)
Yes.
As long as when Black releases Grey can hold his balance behind his toes he'll be fine. That's because we have feet which are long and not 'points' to stand on.

tuturuhan
04-25-2008, 08:30 AM
Robert,

Better yet, let's look at what is behind the skill. Let's use an object to demonstrate the extention of the mind through the connectedness of the object. Watch for the subtle use of the fingers which than produces the moving of the mass connected to the staff. This represents the "five bows" theory:

bow theory 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mMCgafwQYE

bow theory 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NzlruG_q8o&feature=related

bow theory 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfaKasOCFr4&feature=related

The tapes give a visualization of how one can knock one's opponent across the room. They show how "stored energy" can be acquired in the body and than "sprung" on one's opponent. I give you this example because it is quite "practical". The "empty force" tapes always leave something to be desired. You must always question if the guys who "emit" can use their "stuff" in an actual combat.

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

tuturuhan
04-25-2008, 08:38 AM
[QUOTE=Robert John;204464]So what if I told you that the guy on the left could release his hands, and the person on the right would not pitch forward. Would that still mean he's using dead weight? :)

I agree that definitions can raise a conundrum, but the funny thing is that so far most any chinese guy I've met that has the "skills" hasn't quibbled on the definition of Jin that I presented earlier. Most of them end of describing it in a similar fashion from practical experience. Japanese guys with the skills also define that particular power in a similar manner even without access to the traditional CMA texts ;)

Robert,

This quote is from the Formosa Neijia Blog and the Wonderous Channel Dave Chesser. Perhaps, you can quibble with him about interpretating chinese:

"QUOTE: Thoughts on translation
April 24th, 2008 · 9 Comments · CPL taiji

After translating the Chen Pan-ling form names, I was left puzzled by a few of the quirks I encountered. Here they are:

1. 撇身pie shen — what exactly does “pie” mean here? This is a fairly rare verb.

2. 如封似閉 rufeng sibi — seal and close. This one seems a little odd, too. What is being sealed and what is being closed?

3. 進步 jin bu (step in) and 上步 shangbu (step up) both get translated as “step forward.” Are we perhaps missing a nuance there?

4. 拗步倒攆猴 aobu daonian hou — twist step and repluse (drive out) the monkey and 順步倒攆猴 shunbu daonian hou — same side step and repulse (drive out) the monkey shows something i’ve never seen discussed in IMA before — same side (shunbu) vs. twist step (aobu) power. This is a really important topic in IMA, yet I’ve never seen it mentioned. Curious.

In the CPL taiji form, repulse monkey is done in both shunbu and aobu forms, the only taiji form that I know of that does this. This allows the twist step and same side step versions to be contrasted in terms of power and technique. Where does the power come from in a twist step? How does doing the technique in a same side step change the applications? Lots of things to uncover in a topic like this.

(Please note that 繞步 raobu and 拗步 aobu are different. I translated both as twist step but they are different. Raobu is really twisting while aobu uses a type of cross power. If you fully twist aobu it becomes raobu.)

Robert, your water is different than my water, is different than "his" water. So, what does jin mean again?

Sincerely,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-25-2008, 08:56 AM
Just a comment to note that those examples have almost nothing to do with the five-bows theory. I have no idea whether Rob John knows what the five-bows theory is (it's a Taiji term, for the most part), but actually, Rob John and his teacher use some of the mechanics involved in the so-called "five-bows" mechanism. I happen to know what the five-bows description is about fairly well and that stuff on the videos is not it.

I'm beginning to get curious what style of Taiji you're claiming to have studied for so many years, Joseph. What you've been showing as Taiji, from the push-hands to the "five-bows" is not traditional Taiji and it's not even good Taiji... and, not surprisingly, most of your examples are not from Taiji at all, but from downstream-arts based on southern Shaolin trapping and bridging. Is your Taiji something you've more or less developed yourself?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
04-25-2008, 09:07 AM
[QUOTE=Robert John;204464]So what if I told you that the guy on the left could release his hands, and the person on the right would not pitch forward. Would that still mean he's using dead weight? :)

I agree that definitions can raise a conundrum, but the funny thing is that so far most any chinese guy I've met that has the "skills" hasn't quibbled on the definition of Jin that I presented earlier. Most of them end of describing it in a similar fashion from practical experience. Japanese guys with the skills also define that particular power in a similar manner even without access to the traditional CMA texts ;)

Robert,

This quote is from the Formosa Neijia Blog and the Wonderous Channel Dave Chesser. Perhaps, you can quibble with him about interpretating chinese:

"QUOTE: Thoughts on translation
April 24th, 2008 · 9 Comments · CPL taiji

After translating the Chen Pan-ling form names, I was left puzzled by a few of the quirks I encountered. Here they are:

1. 撇身pie shen — what exactly does "pie" mean here? This is a fairly rare verb.

2. 如封似閉 rufeng sibi — seal and close. This one seems a little odd, too. What is being sealed and what is being closed?

3. 進步 jin bu (step in) and 上步 shangbu (step up) both get translated as "step forward." Are we perhaps missing a nuance there?

4. 拗步倒攆猴 aobu daonian hou — twist step and repluse (drive out) the monkey and 順步倒攆猴 shunbu daonian hou — same side step and repulse (drive out) the monkey shows something i've never seen discussed in IMA before — same side (shunbu) vs. twist step (aobu) power. This is a really important topic in IMA, yet I've never seen it mentioned. Curious.

In the CPL taiji form, repulse monkey is done in both shunbu and aobu forms, the only taiji form that I know of that does this. This allows the twist step and same side step versions to be contrasted in terms of power and technique. Where does the power come from in a twist step? How does doing the technique in a same side step change the applications? Lots of things to uncover in a topic like this.

(Please note that 繞步 raobu and 拗步 aobu are different. I translated both as twist step but they are different. Raobu is really twisting while aobu uses a type of cross power. If you fully twist aobu it becomes raobu.)

Robert, your water is different than my water, is different than "his" water. So, what does jin mean again?

Sincerely,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola Joseph, please do us a favor and make it clear where your quotations begin and end and who exactly is speaking, not just where you copied the material from.

Dave Chesser was on the QiJin forum for a while, BTW, and I doubt that he has much quibble about the way "jin" is translated. Rob is correct; you're not.

In regards to the terms in the discussion (like "sealing and closing", the movements with twist step, etc.) those are pretty straightforward. Why not just discuss with Rob instead of trying to always dominate and pretend that you're "advanced" when it's pretty obvious to most of the older hands that you're not. Didn't you run into these kinds of problems on EmptyFlower, already?

If you want to assert things without anyone questioning you, maybe it's easier to do it to your "students". Making statements about common classical concepts seems to lead us always back to the idea that you don't need to explain and anyone who questions you must assuredly be far below you in skills. Seems like a low-percentage bet for you to try that, unless you think everyone you encounter was just born yesterday. :)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

tuturuhan
04-25-2008, 09:11 AM
[QUOTE=Mike Sigman;204493][QUOTE=Joseph Arriola;204489]

Mike,

Let's stick to the technique. Do you have something to offer? Or do you just want to start arguements about "words"?

Several tapes have been put up. Let's try to keep our insecurities out of this.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Upyu
04-25-2008, 09:16 AM
Help me out here Robert John. We appear to be approaching the elephant from opposites polar ends.
This conversation might really begin some great synergy. Liike I said earlier:

Most of my Aiki study has been exactly in the area of how every little thing I do specifically effects uke in the following ways:

(1) stability
(2) balance
(3) reduction of his or her base
(4) dropping my weight through one of the throwing points in uke's stance.

Good Daito can be performed slowly.

Bottom line, I must be relaxed enough to "read" your body. Every jig or jag must be read and responded to like water filling a gap.

So what exactly do you mean when you say, "The overall idea is that you don't manipulate Uke themselves?"[/QUOTE]
Hi Chris

It means more or less what Hunter said.
You're the controlling side of one "four legged animal", and as such you simply manipulate "yourself" in order to get an effect on your opponent, at least in the beginning. It also means that no matter what happens, you never respond using local force, and for the most part the transmission of "kokyu/jin" starts in the legs.

From what I've heard, dropping the weight in the manner you've mentioned etc isn't expressedly used in Sagawa's DRAJJ that I've heard of.
Think of it this way...if you weighed half of what you weigh now, and still had to affect Uke's that were twice as heavy as you, could you get away using the weight transfer method you've mentioned?

Mike Sigman
04-25-2008, 09:16 AM
Let's stick to the technique. Hey, you're the one using the "words" like "five-bows". If you're going to use the words, I would suggest that it might be worthwhile to learn what they mean. Take any concept you showed on those videos and tell us how it represents the "five bows", Joseph. You're the one that started the conversation... it seems that you suddenly want to change the conversation when it gets warm. Go ahead and give us an explanation. Just one "technique" from your videos.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Upyu
04-25-2008, 09:24 AM
Robert, your water is different than my water, is different than "his" water. So, what does jin mean again?



Hi Joseph,

Actually I prefer Volvic over Perrier. The bubbles give me gas :D
Joke, no offense intended.

But seriously, you've been around the CMA community long enough, maybe its time you stopped pulling our legs ;)
Jin is Jin no matter who you goto who has skills.
I dont think its any coincidence that I goto a guy that learned a Hakka style of home-brewed internal (to put it crudely) and still gets more or less the same results and descriptions as the "pure bred" chen dudes when it comes to Jin.

If you can do Jin there's no quibbling over that particular definition.
And I haven't seen even Chesser quibble about the definition of Jin.

All MA guys that have "skill" have this basic "skill," be it Japanese, Chinese or whatever. How they manipulate it, use it, train it is where the "my style is better than yours! nyah!" arguments start.

Upyu
04-25-2008, 09:29 AM
Guy in grey is leaning forward more than black and his arms are straight.
If black pushes more he's just going to push himself back over.
In this example Grey needs NOTHING MORE than his lean and straight arms to keep black back.
Now, if you have a vid of Grey not leaning and with bent arms, and Black leaning more with straight arms, and Grey being able to push Black then post it cos that's the one I'd closely study!

True, but I'll bet you dinner and a whole round of drinks that you could lean on me in the manner that "Grey" does and I'd still be able to push you back. (Assuming you only outweigh me by about 20lb or so, there's a limit to these skills, they don't make you superman!)
Sure the lean is a slight additive but he's not resting his weight on him
(shameless plug for the DC seminar: any naysayers about this can try it at the seminar :D ).

Maybe you missed what I said, but black could release his hands and Grey would NOT pitch forward, ie, he's not committing his weight even if it looks like it.
You could mimic the position and not get the same result.

tuturuhan
04-25-2008, 09:39 AM
Robert,

We have in common our quest to "see what others do not". I learn from this process and I thank you for the interaction.

Best,
Joseph

Chris Parkerson
04-25-2008, 09:41 AM
Think of it this way...if you weighed half of what you weigh now, and still had to affect Uke's that were twice as heavy as you, could you get away using the weight transfer method you've mentioned?[/QUOTE]

Weight dropping to me is simple physics. I can catch a bowling ball pretty well if my posture is stable (structure) and if my hands are close to my center of gravity. I cannot do it if (1) I am unstable and/or (2) I try to do it with my hands outstretched (far from my own center of gravity).

Dropping weight has nothing to do with applying force. It is about letting gravity take over.

You ever heard the joke about the midget who went into the bar, picked out a fellow and said, "do you want to fight me buddy?"
When the guy responded willingly, the midget pointed to a really giant fellow and said, "well, there's me buddy."

I have five buddies. They are my big brothers. Gravity, momentum, centripital force, centrifugal force and friction. The more you get out of the way and let these big brothers do the job, the lighter the technique becomes.

But, if it was just about joining centers and heaviness, four legged tables would not be stable. They would fall down if you placed weight on them. There is a lot more to discuss here. What causes instability? Can it be isolated and tauht independently from technique and style much like you study your own personal structure.

You have to place some form of stress on the structure so that uke buckles at some point. Not muscular force. Muscular force can tip off uke and he will fortify the area being stressed.

In another strand I talked about using the visualization of cutting through butter. After making a specific study of how the body buckles, you just drop weight like you are dropping a men cut with a wsord and trust that gravity will drop your weight through the vulnerable area.

I hope to include these ideas in this weekend's video.

tuturuhan
04-25-2008, 09:44 AM
Chris,

You go...man. Put your stuff up!!!

Sincerely
Joe

Chris Parkerson
04-25-2008, 09:58 AM
Robert John wrote:
Hi Chris
Think of it this way...if you weighed half of what you weigh now, and still had to affect Uke's that were twice as heavy as you, could you get away using the weight transfer method you've mentioned?

The answer is Yes. Resoundingly so. This is the core truth about the Ju in Jujitsu and it even becomes more specifically true when a Jujitsu man begins to learn Aiki. I would like to raise the bar on the saying "four ounces can move a thousand pounds". Why quibble over two or four. Can we do it with one ounce? I think so and herein lies an essential difference in Tai Chi versus Daito secrets.

IMO, most Tai Chi focusses on bouncing and uprooting with fajing. Aikijujutsu focusses on kuzushi (the set up) before the throw. In reality, throws are an anti-climax if "The big guy has been placed at the edge of the cliff". I also noticed and felt a Chen Man Cheng style teacher do the same. It really impressed me. He had set me up with kuzushi before he bounced me. It was very smooth. I mentioned this before and got blasted by the critics for suggesting that Chen Man Cheng's style was what I was working toward.

The trick is that folks who study structure (Tai Chi guys, wrestlers, etc) are pretty sensitive to what your touch is doing to them (the set up). I use a variety of ways to "trick" uke in the set up phase. Most are internal techniques. Getting decent at them as well. But I claim no mastery of it. I have seen the masters at play. I have a ways to go.

DH
04-25-2008, 10:08 AM
Most of my Aiki study has been exactly in the area of how every little thing I do specifically effects uke in the following ways:

(1) stability
(2) balance
(3) reduction of his or her base
(4) dropping my weight through one of the throwing points in uke's stance.

Good Daito can be performed slowly.
Bottom line, I must be relaxed enough to "read" your body. Every jig or jag must be read and responded to like water filling a gap.
So what exactly do you mean when you say, "The overall idea is that you don't manipulate Uke themselves?"

Chris
The types of movement you typically describe are basic jujutsu. Nothing more. I'm not critisizing you for it-not by a long shot. Its just how I see it.
Often there is a common misconception when folks see some subtle jujutsu "techniques" and call it aiki. It isn't aiki and it isn't internal. Moreover it will often fail as a means of moving against the type of training Rob is describing. I would beg to differ with Robs assessment of only working with a limit of a 20lb advantage, as I've seen these things work against a 100lb advantage. Meaning, the type of movements and those types of manipulations you describe can be gotten around or gone through with proper body training-not too mention just good fighting skills.

I'm no fan of subtle "waza" as anything meaningful in combatives. "Subtle" can fly right out the window under stress. That said, if your goal is to get to a higher level with more powerful, capturing and consistent movement- then concentrating on trying to "do things" to people is the wrong direction to go. What Rob was laying out for you is the first step into a deeper level of understanding. Which on any other day should really be a fist-step for everyone. That is you learning to manage and carry-you. To make it simple rising energy or sinking energy is happening in you. Your opponent encounters it and is controlled by you moving you- not him. And that is just two, simple examples. Other, more definitive actions, even a simple pivot can control on contact and are still a manipulation of your own body that control him. The fun starts after developing power-the use of it in a myriad of ways.
Even something as simple as a strike can be different. A full power strike can off-balance you an internal strike doesn't and delivers more mass. As an examples of mimicing- there is a way to cheat and use the scapulars and do a soft *wave* strike from the heels up that mimics internal power-but it isn't.

Your mention of "Good Daito" is no promise of anything. Daito ryu schools are as dismissive of each others efforts by way of Aiki as anyone else-and just as open to inane and perfectly useless aiki-waza as anyone else. You have to really search to find someone with power and skill.
Yes good jujutsu can be done slowly, but that statement is meaningless as any defining differentiation between Daito ryu, or jujutsu, or aiki. Subtle "technique" and movement can be an excellent mask to allow people to completely miss the mark. Good waza, is just more good waza. So what.

The same thing happens when folks see the various types of "Aiki-sword" and think it has anything to do with real weapons work and mistakenly call it koryu. Your videos on that other thread showing your movements with the sword looked more like those modern, California "aiki-contrived" re-creations and not a Koryu. Further there were many openeings in it and a bleeding of energy. It's not a use of weapons I'd subscribe to.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Good luck in your training

Chris Parkerson
04-25-2008, 10:12 AM
Chris,

You go...man. Put your stuff up!!!

Sincerely
Joe

Joe and I are coming from different backgrounds and studies in the arts. His use of words and mine are also divergent at times and convergent at times. But if anyone takes tyhe time to "feel" his touch, you know he has depth.

When I attended my first class with him, I tried to empty my cup..... even though my cup overfows with some very precise language. I tried to do what he taugh and "mimic" his movement. By the third class, Joe mentioned how much I had grown.

Part of that growth was his excellent teaching style. Other was my becoming confortable that some of what he taught, my body knew from my own studies and my own language. The non-verbal communication was what makes me want to continue to train with him. He has stuff I really want to include in my own path.

I suspect Joe has learned much of his stuff from visions and dreams as much as what he got from his path of teachers. If this is anywhere correct, he has also tapped into the atavistic mind in a way that is superb. Language often gets in the way of what we instinctively know. Studying the logic of Aristotle is great study but so is the study of the work of a village shaman.

Chris Parkerson
04-25-2008, 10:46 AM
Dan Hardin wrote:
I'm no fan of subtle "waza" as anything meaningful in combatives. That said, if your goal is to get to a higher level with more powerful, capturing and consistent movement- then concentrating on trying to "do things" to people is the wrong direction to go.

Personally, I love my path and am doing well with it. I am able to self correct and work long periods without visits to my Renshi. But I do respect your path as well.

What Rob was laying out for you is the first step into a deeper level of understanding. Which on any other day should really be a fist-step for everyone. To make it simple rising energy or sinking energy is happening in you. Your opponent encounters it and is controlled by you moving you- not him. And that is just two, simple examples.

In good "Process Philosophy" fashion, nothing happens except that it effects both parties. We do not act upon uke expect that the action changes us as well.

Concerning a two person push hands, I could emit fajing, but without connecting to the center of gravity by way of linking up bone structure, the energy will not uproot uke; will it? That is why we often have to bypass the forearms and humerous when pushing hands with a Tai Chi Man, we have to go directly to the rib cage as their soulders are and remain loose and suple in the play.

A full power strike can off-balance you an internal strike doesn't and delivers more mass.

Agreed, but losing balance is not uprooting or falling down. They are very different processes. If I take someones balance without effecting his stability (even with a powerful punch), he just "trides it" by taking a step and creates a new base. And you are right, I use a wave when striking of bouncing people. It works and does not hurt my old broken up body.

Your mention of "Good Daito" is no promise of anything. Daito ryu schools are as dismissive of each others efforts by way of Aiki as anyone else-and just as open to inane and perfectly useless aiki-waza as anyone else. You have to really search to find someone with power and skill.

In truth, Yanagi is in this context, a subset of the Daito family. My stuff on Youtube has gotten the attention of several Daito instructors. I have only shown the tip of my technical iceberg out of respect for my Koryu. I have gotten some pretty good comments from the Daito guys.

Yes good jujutsu can be done slowly, but that statement is meaningless as any defining differentiation between Daito ryu, or jujutsu, or aiki. Subtle "technique" and movement can be an excellent mask to allow people to completely miss the mark. Good waza, is just more good waza. So what.

I am all about improving waza; making my movements smaller and more subtle while getting more effect. To me, the Daito was like today's nuclear secrets. Feudal Japan spent a lot of time and money developing their military capabilities in this respect. I am pretty sure that they stole, reverse-engineered, and even self-developed as well as modern Japan does the same with electronics other forms of manufacturing.

They are, as a culture, sticklers for detail. I like what I have discovered so far and have a pretty focussed path. But as I said before, Dan, I would love to get together and feel what you are talking about.

tuturuhan
04-25-2008, 11:51 AM
Mike,

I know the meanings. Do you? That's the test.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

tuturuhan
04-25-2008, 11:59 AM
Joe and I are coming from different backgrounds and studies in the arts. His use of words and mine are also divergent at times and convergent at times. But if anyone takes tyhe time to "feel" his touch, you know he has depth.

When I attended my first class with him, I tried to empty my cup..... even though my cup overfows with some very precise language. I tried to do what he taugh and "mimic" his movement. By the third class, Joe mentioned how much I had grown.

Part of that growth was his excellent teaching style. Other was my becoming confortable that some of what he taught, my body knew from my own studies and my own language. The non-verbal communication was what makes me want to continue to train with him. He has stuff I really want to include in my own path.

I suspect Joe has learned much of his stuff from visions and dreams as much as what he got from his path of teachers. If this is anywhere correct, he has also tapped into the atavistic mind in a way that is superb. Language often gets in the way of what we instinctively know. Studying the logic of Aristotle is great study but so is the study of the work of a village shaman.

Scholar/Lawyer Yu Piao

In the late 1970's Lawyer Yu Piao was my roommate in San Francisco. He was already a licensed lawyer in Taiwan. But, he had decided to attend the Univerity of California, Hastings College of the Law to complete his legal education...

One day he approached me and said "I don't get you Americans. If you are bad you are baaaad, meaning good. But, if you are good you aren't bad...which is it?" We both laughed heartily.

Etymology is a funny thing. As time passes words evolve. Many times those words become fractured from their original "accepted" meaning. Sometimes, they become the opposite of what they were meant to be.

Likewise, when I first read the first of many "translations" of the "Book of Five Rings"...I didn't have "context". I hadn't trained in the use of deadly weapons. As such, I couldn't understand the meanings of many of the "words much less the phrases".

Later, I realized that the few who were "translating" did not have "adept" martial training, much less any kind of weapons experience. Further, the context of present and historical past could only truly be viewed from "present eyes". As such, I learned to filter everything I read, saw, heard and felt. (I realized that accepted "definitions" are simply made by popular vote and are not necessarily the truth)

Fortunately, I also realized that the "translator/concuit/channel" was nontheless transferring something...

Chris,

You hit "him" in the nose. You can't really tell until you have "experienced" it. I also think this is what ROBERT JOHN is saying. You can't tell the technique from the "words or sight of the videos". You must to feel it. So, I am careful in my words of critique of Robert's videos because "I don't really know...until I feel it."

Though, from the end "result" 1) did the guy writhe in pain 2) was there nothing he could do in defense 3) was he helpless to the techinique 4) was there utility/practicality; from the results I can make an educated guess.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-25-2008, 12:02 PM
Mike,

I know the meanings. Do you? That's the test.
Well, good... I asked you to define and describe and once again we get no answer. This seems to be your M.O., Joseph. You assert things and then when questioned you try to take it to the questioner as having a problem. I asked a simple question... it deserves a simple answer. And BTW, if you look in the archives, I've done a number of posts where I explain in detail a lot of things and even draw diagrams. So I've paid my dues.

On a second point, let me say something that needs to come up on every martial-arts blog occasionally. Techno-martial-babble. Often we see someone try to take a discussion of hard-to-explain ideas like "ki" into the "Quantum Mechanics Techno-Babble" area. It's part of the old saying of "if you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit" approach. I.e., try to say something so obscure and with such pretended understanding yourself that no one will question you. The Quantum Mechanics approach invariably reaches an embarrassing problem when it turns out that a couple of guys on the forum happen to be physicists and they either point out the impossibility or they ask embarrassing questions.

Same thing with using martial-babble like "The Way" inappropriately to get out of a hard question, or "spirits", or "the Dantien Brain" and all that stuff. It's babble-speak. It almost invariably is someone trying to justify himself by appeal to mysticism. If someone really knows a subject they don't need to attack or to babble-speak.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

tuturuhan
04-25-2008, 12:18 PM
Mike,

I have invited you to show your tapes. I have shown mine. Let's get back to the videos. Let me hear your analysis. Let's go beyond your emotional outbursts and talk technique.

Best
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Ron Tisdale
04-25-2008, 12:23 PM
Just for the record, I for one, do not find Mike's postings to be emotional outbursts.

I am much less experienced in these areas, but I share Mike's viewpoint, and also wonder why the simple questions seem to be so hard to answer.

Best,
Ron

Mike Sigman
04-25-2008, 12:24 PM
Again, no answer, Joseph. I asked a number of simple questions; always no answer. You want to have some sort of pecking order contest, but I don't want to play. If you don't know what the "five bows" are or why no real push-hands pattern lets go, why not just say so, rather than trying to make it a personal contest?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

tuturuhan
04-25-2008, 12:29 PM
Again, no answer, Joseph. I asked a number of simple questions; always no answer. You want to have some sort of pecking order contest, but I don't want to play. If you don't know what the "five bows" are or why no real push-hands pattern lets go, why not just say so, rather than trying to make it a personal contest?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike,

Come to one of my classes and bring your red envelope. I don't teach internet bullies. I have no obligation to you. Certainly, you know more about me than I do of you. But, then from the few tapes I have seen of you...I suppose I don't need too. My tapes speak volumes if you understand the language.

I have invited you to comment. Please do. But, again tell me what you think the 5 bows theory means.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-25-2008, 12:39 PM
Come to one of my classes and bring your red envelope. I don't teach internet bullies. I have no obligation to you. Certainly, you know more about me than I do of you. But, then from the few tapes I have seen of you...I suppose I don't need too. My tapes speak volumes if you understand the language.

I have invited you to comment. Please do. But, again tell me what you think the 5 bows theory means.This is why we keep the QiJin forum closed, Joseph. A lot of the explanations from the old Neijia List wound up being used as talking points and baffle points by "teachers" who really didn't know their subject as much as they pretended to. So we limit who gets on the QiJin forum in order to not wind up giving information to people who only speak to impress others and have little interest in learning the arts. I think it's obvious to everyone what you know about the "five bows", which you yourself brought up as a baffle-point.

"Bully"? Odd how anyone who questions you has some sort of personal problem or is too far below you for you to respond. Wu De might be another good term for you to look up.

Regards,

Mike sigman

Chris Parkerson
04-25-2008, 12:51 PM
Jim McCoy;203108]This thought is something that has been bouncing around in my head for some time. It came to surface again, triggered by a thread on a Yoshinkan board.

The thread described a seminar by a senior teacher who demonstrated a technique where atleast 2 uke picked him up. He then began to project his ki downward ("made himself heavy" as I call it). The uke could no longer hold him up and fell themselves. As was discussed in that thread, this type of thing is not generally taught in Yoshinkan.

It does appear to be something carried over from Daito Ryu. I have seen Okamoto Sensei do similar things in his DVD.

This is generally described as being a "secret technique". Which is something that will be taght only to very advanced seniors who have been training for a very long tim.
I haven't tried this exact technique yet, but I will soon. I think that with only 2 uke I can probably make it work based on things that I learned in Taichi.

My thought is that, in a number of cases, the "secret techniques" and "advanced principles" of Aikido and Daito Ryu such as this, are often found in the more fundamental teachings of Taichi.

Which makes me wonder why some still use the term "secret technique". It's not a very goo dsecrete if it's the foundation of an art that millions of people outside of your school are practicing.

Chris Parkerson
04-25-2008, 12:58 PM
This thought is something that has been bouncing around in my head for some time. It came to surface again, triggered by a thread on a Yoshinkan board.

The thread described a seminar by a senior teacher who demonstrated a technique where atleast 2 uke picked him up. He then began to project his ki downward ("made himself heavy" as I call it). The uke could no longer hold him up and fell themselves. As was discussed in that thread, this type of thing is not generally taught in Yoshinkan.

It does appear to be something carried over from Daito Ryu. I have seen Okamoto Sensei do similar things in his DVD.

.

The original thread started here was a specific question regarding the Daito approach to performing this technique. It included teachers like Okamoto, Shioda, etc.

Here is where I get a bit confused..... even by the title of the thread. Dan Hardin suggests that Daito kuzushi practices and Tai Chi-style internal stuff is fundamentally different. I tend to agree with this statement.

But the sound bite many folks are getting is that the Chinese internal stuff is what makes tis daito technique work. Are you folks saying that Okamoto and Shioda employed the Chinese internal practices to make their traditional techniques work?

A second question; are we morphing the idea Kokyo breath techniques as practiced by the Japanese into a Chinese thing? Kokyo/Ki seems to be a construct that is being filled with Chinese meaning rather than a Japanese one as portrayed by the Daito and Yanagi that I have learned. I have Kokyo in every throw I do. But Dan would tell me that it is an external thing I am doing. Nevertheless, I suspect that what I am doing is very close if not nearly exactly the same thing Okamoto and Kondo are doing, only at a less proficient stage.

Mike Sigman
04-25-2008, 01:07 PM
Dan Hardin suggests that Daito kuzushi practices and Tai Chi-style internal stuff is fundamentally different. I tend to agree with this statement. I don't know if Dan suggested that or not, but there is no fundamental difference. No more than "Ki" and "Qi" are different. But the sound bite many folks are getting is that the Chinese internal stuff is what makes tis daito technique work. Are you folks saying that Okamoto and Shioda employed the Chinese internal practices to make their traditional techniques work? Chinese, Schminese. The original body-technology is almost undoubtedly from India via Buddhist training methodologies (although it's probable that this is in ancient Hindu practices, too). Who cares where it came from, though? The question is who does it, and Shioda obviously knows how to do these things. He also used the "held up by students and then make them fall down" trick. It's the same principle of "aiki"... just a variation of it. A second question; are we morphing the idea Kokyo breath techniques as practiced by the Japanese into a Chinese thing? Kokyo/Ki seems to be a construct that is being filled with Chinese meaning rather than a Japanese one as portrayed by the Daito and Yanagi that I have learned. I have Kokyo in every throw I do. But Dan would tell me that it is an external thing I am doing. Nevertheless, I suspect that what I am doing is very close if not nearly exactly the same thing Okamoto and Kondo are doing, only at a less proficient stage.Watching what you do, I'd bet with Dan, but I'm always willing to feel it in person before I venture a final opinion... so my opinion stands as an opinion only.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Dan Austin
04-25-2008, 01:11 PM
Mike,

Come to one of my classes and bring your red envelope. I don't teach internet bullies. I have no obligation to you. Certainly, you know more about me than I do of you. But, then from the few tapes I have seen of you...I suppose I don't need too. My tapes speak volumes if you understand the language.

I have invited you to comment. Please do. But, again tell me what you think the 5 bows theory means.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Hi Joseph,

Sorry to chime in here, but this is too rich. From the outset of these discussions, your immediate response to even the hint of anyone questioning your expertise is to talk about your fighting ability, as if any adults care about that, and as if that says anything about your knowledge of specific arts. If I can fight, am I automatically a master of any art I claim? Even to a non-CMA person, pushands is obviously a contact sensitivity exercise, which leads to the obvious question of how that can work if you break contact. YouTube is replete with videos of acknowledged Tai Chi grandmasters doing pushhands, and not only do they maintain contact, but in terms of pattern and every qualitative aspect they are completely different than what you are showing. You may have a nice personal system, but when you claim expertise in particular arts you are fair game.

I now see all three of the acknowledged internal guys, whom many board members have met and verified, essentially showing that what you call internal is something of your own devising. None of them has ever to my knowledge mentioned quantum mechanics or other nebulous handwaving. The interesting thing is that in one of your videos, you commented that a student may only get 60% of what a teacher shows, a student of that student may only get 20% and so forth, indicating that it's easy for things to get lost as they are passed down. This is a theme the internal guys would obviously agree with, but the thought that this may apply to you as well causes you to be belligerent and condescending. It's difficult to imagine how it could have been put so diplomatically as not to cause such a reaction from you, but in any case the only bullying tone evident here is your own. If I want to learn anything of the internal, your videos and comments here have convinced me where I should go for real information.

Budd
04-25-2008, 01:17 PM
Qi/Jin . . . Ki/Kokyu . . . I've gotten my hands on more than one person that talks about these things in concrete terms and can demonstrate these things (both folks with backgrounds in Chinese and Japanese arts) in a very physical manner -- though with different levels and different concentrations . . . there seems to be a fundamental concentration and similarity on The Basics . . . and it seems that, like in many disciplines . .. you can't do the really cool stuff until you've got The Basics . . . which also reasonably seems like being able to have a discussion around The Basics (which on this forum especially, in the archives section, it seems like people from different backgrounds have already been able to do) . . .

None of this is meant to discourage discussion -- it just seems to me that before you can intelligibly have a "This is MY take on it" line of discussion, you ought to be able to bring that logically forward from, "This is The Basics as I understand and demonstrate them". Again, not singling or stifling . . . just pointing out something that I think is rather reasonable.

DH
04-25-2008, 01:19 PM
Dan Hardin suggests that Daito kuzushi practices and Tai Chi-style internal stuff is fundamentally different. I tend to agree with this statement.

Chris
You more or less stated the exact opposite of what I hold to be true.

But the sound bite many folks are getting is that the Chinese internal stuff is what makes tis daito technique work. Are you folks saying that Okamoto and Shioda employed the Chinese internal practices to make their traditional techniques work?

A second question; are we morphing the idea Kokyo breath techniques as practiced by the Japanese into a Chinese thing? Kokyo/Ki seems to be a construct that is being filled with Chinese meaning rather than a Japanese one as portrayed by the Daito and Yanagi that I have learned. I have Kokyo in every throw I do. But Dan would tell me that it is an external thing I am doing. Nevertheless, I suspect that what I am doing is very close if not nearly exactly the same thing Okamoto and Kondo are doing, only at a less proficient stage.

I think where you and I go astray from understading each other is that you assume I agree with your findings in DR and Yanagi.
I don't.
The rest of your confusion of my points is based on your assumption that Yanagi and ALL DR is the same
It isn't
For you to make a statement that Kondo and Okomoto are doing the same thing tells me allot about you. No offense intended.
Think of it like this.
If I were to say to you that "The TKD at the inner city mall is the same as Aikijujutsu in the Sagawa dojo because they both hit!" What would you think of the understanding behind that statement?
I honestly do not think you can grasp what I am talking about unless we play for a while.

tuturuhan
04-25-2008, 01:26 PM
Dan,

Yes, I am belligerent. Yes, I defend my standards. If I didn't I wouldn't be teaching people "how to defend themselves".

I have simply asked the recognized experts (by popularity vote) to demonstrate how you use their stuff to teach other "how to defend themselves".

Now, you can critique the tapes I have put up. You can say they are bad or good. The results speak for themselves. Do my opponents react to my technique? Are they in pain? Are they fearful? Am I hitting them with little or no external power?

This is sticking to the analysis and not reacting emotionally.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Chris Parkerson
04-25-2008, 01:38 PM
Chris
You more or less stated the exact opposite of what I hold to be true.

I think where you and I go astray from understading each other is that you assume I agree with your findings in DR and Yanagi.
I don't.
The rest of your confusion of my points is based on your assumption that Yanagi and ALL DR is the same
It isn't
For you to make a statement that Kondo and Okomoto are doing the same thing tells me allot about you. No offense intended.
Think of it like this.
If I were to say to you that "The TKD at the inner city mall is the same as Aikijujutsu in the Sagawa dojo because they both hit!" What would you think of the understanding behind that statement?
I honestly do not think you can grasp what I am talking about unless we play for a while.

I can really only speak about my own path. I have displayed much of my technological descriptions of how I make techniques work. And I am no slouch at it. My circles are getting smaller and I am getting better at dropping people with a light touch....even from stasis.

Yet, I do not have "IT". I have been told so by Mike and Rob. Well, I am in large part using my teachers terms and method. He helps me reverse engineer Okamoto's movements regularly. Perhaps he does not have "IT" either but he can do and he can teach me Okamoto's stuff. So does Okamoto have "IT". Does he need "IT" to make his stuff work?

DH
04-25-2008, 02:36 PM
Hi Chris
I'd say with your mindset YES! you'd most certainly get it. You are a searcher, and It doesn't appear your all stuck to one idea. If you read back to a whole bunch of other folks looking at this topic you'll see what I mean. Do I think you have it No, not really no. And with 4 bucks and my opinion you can get a decent cup of jo. I do think if you go and train with somone who will teach you this stuff you would not only have a blast, you'd most likely eat it up and work it to death. You appear to have a good work ethic. It will change and enpower all that soft jujutsu you keep talking about -and that- without you having to alter everything you know. Anyway, I've enjoyed talking with you here and there because you always are at least open to ideas.

Okomoto uses this stuff to make his waza work. To what extent he has it ingrained, to what level before it failed martially? I dunno. Who cares. It's just obvious he has worked the body method- to the degree he needs it. But it's not a competition. Everyone needs to pursue it for themselves with the best methods they can find, to use in whatever venue they want to use it in. Aiki games, or fighting.. As for reverse engineering it. Thats the source of the problem. It doesn't work that way. Let me put it another way. When shown Roppokai waza by a student of Okomoto, I can do them. I don't know them, But I can do them. Why? How? Did I engineer them?
Its in the body bud, not in the movement. they come after.

Trying to get to and learn the body training through any arts waza that has these skills at the core is the source of all the slow, loooong, learning curves. To each their own
Good luck to you

Chris Parkerson
04-25-2008, 03:30 PM
Hi Chris
I'd say with your mindset YES! you'd most certainly get it. You are a searcher, and It doesn't appear your all stuck to one idea. If you read back to a whole bunch of other folks looking at this topic you'll see what I mean. Do I think you have it No, not really no. And with 4 bucks and my opinion you can get a decent cup of jo. I do think if you go and train with somone who will teach you this stuff you would not only have a blast, you'd most likely eat it up and work it to death. You appear to have a good work ethic. It will change and enpower all that soft jujutsu you keep talking about -and that- without you having to alter everything you know. Anyway, I've enjoyed talking with you here and there because you always are at least open to ideas.

Okomoto uses this stuff to make his waza work. To what extent he has it ingrained, to what level before it failed martially? I dunno. Who cares. It's just obvious he has worked the body method- to the degree he needs it. But it's not a competition. Everyone needs to pursue it for themselves with the best methods they can find, to use in whatever venue they want to use it in. Aiki games, or fighting.. As for reverse engineering it. Thats the source of the problem. It doesn't work that way. Let me put it another way. When shown Roppokai waza by a student of Okomoto, I can do them. I don't know them, But I can do them. Why? How? Did I engineer them?
Its in the body bud, not in the movement. they come after.

Trying to get to and learn the body training through any arts waza that has these skills at the core is the source of all the slow, loooong, learning curves. To each their own
Good luck to you

Dan,

That was a very kind and respectful answer. Thank you for both your sensitivities to my previous hours of sweat and pain as well as your honesty.

I really have few boundaries when it comes to learning from qualified people..... whatever their special skills are. I just ask that they be not gods or bullies.

I look forward to meeting up with you sometime soon.

When we do, I will empty my cup and absorb your teaching, and later evaluate its value to my path.

Regards,

Chris Parkerson

Mike Sigman
04-25-2008, 04:38 PM
I really have few boundaries when it comes to learning from qualified people..... whatever their special skills are. I just ask that they be not gods or bullies.Hmmmmmm.... I just glanced back at a number of posts with "godlike" references to obscure and often wrongly used terms that seem to imply "godlike" and "advanced" understanding of the arts. I also noticed a number of continued intimations about "can you use it in a fight" which were strangely like the intimidation of "bullies". I guess it's all in how you interpret a word. Sort of like "Swiftboating", now a verb, which means on the one side a verb that connotes lies and slander, but on the other side indicates inconvenient truths which the people yelling "Swiftboating" would just as soon that people not learn about. ;)

I dunno.... once I catch on that someone is posturing in order to catch students and/or attention, I tend to not want to show any of the little I know to them. Not to punish them, but more out of seeing the obvious... these people will turn around and use what I show them to further try to impress people or collect students, even if they only have a few pieces of the puzzle. It's those students I worry about. Granted, that doesn't seem to matter to most people, but I'm odd that way.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Chris Parkerson
04-25-2008, 04:55 PM
Chris
The rest of your confusion of my points is based on your assumption that Yanagi and ALL DR is the same
It isn't
For you to make a statement that Kondo and Okomoto are doing the same thing tells me allot about you.

Just a quick reply...

I am in complete agreement that not all DR is the same. And Yanagi as I am being taught it is quite different in nature. Only in the context that Yoshida Kotaro was a daito teacher and that many small koryu aided to the whole was I making that statement.

Yanagi, as I am taught, is quite focussed on legs and lower body doing 95% or more of any technique. Much Baqua footwork and tai Chi posture work.

As a contrast, here is a clip of Sensei Goldberg from 200 Years of Jujitsu. I trained with him about two years after this tape so it provides a major difference for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V62idLMZve8

Regarding Kondo and Okamoto, I have some suspicions that the holistic art was divided intentionally. The outer shell of technique remains in the Kodokai and the Roppokai teaches the internal process by way of games and exercises.

Splice the two together and you can figure out how tori can place uke in such convoluted positions. It just doesn't work well as an external waza unless you have the internal stuff to make it work.

That is how we practice in Yanagi, a blend of both. But this is just my opinion and I mean no disrespect to anyone by it.

Howard Popkin
04-25-2008, 05:27 PM
Who is that skinny guy at 3:47 ????

He falls well for a white belt :)

Howard Popkin

Howard Popkin
04-25-2008, 05:31 PM
and who is the uke in this one ??? about 2:09

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBE-xKdTq6Q&feature=related

Howard Popkin

Chris Parkerson
04-25-2008, 08:00 PM
Who is that skinny guy at 3:47 ????

He falls well for a white belt :)

Howard Popkin

This tape was before my time. In fact, it was this tape that got me interested in Sensei Goldberg (if I remember correctly). I had moved to Connecticut on a bodyguard contract and looked him up. I had to convince him that I really wanted to train with him. I drovve from Connecticut two times a week (when I was in town and not travelling with my client).... 3 hours round trip.

I think I remember they white belt guy though from my 1990-1991 days at Sensei Goldberg's basement dojo. He was yudansha in another jujitsu system as were many of Goldberg's students.

If you interpret the clip as I do, the black belt uke was not from his crew and had enough of Goldberg's hard and tight throwing style. Then he picked one of his guys to demonstrate on....the white belt.

I can attest to his ability to throw back then. The first time he clipped me with one of those, I was literally climbing over his body to keep my shoulder and elbow from dislocating and the fall was not pretty.

I would love to see him again and see where he has gone with his art. It was a wonderful thing to feel even 16 years ago.

Mark Jakabcsin
04-25-2008, 08:55 PM
Regarding Kondo and Okamoto, I have some suspicions that the holistic art was divided intentionally. The outer shell of technique remains in the Kodokai and the Roppokai teaches the internal process by way of games and exercises.



Ahh, what does this have to do with Kondo Sensei?

MJ

Mark Jakabcsin
04-25-2008, 08:57 PM
Who is that skinny guy at 3:47 ????

He falls well for a white belt :)

Howard Popkin

Kinda hard to tell as the footage is a little blurry but he seems to be a pain wussy on the joint lock. :) hehehehe

Take care,

Mark J.

DH
04-25-2008, 09:45 PM
Chris
You're talking to a couple of guys who both spent time in that basement dojo and either slept on the tatami in the spare room or upstairs next to the Kitchen.

Chris Parkerson
04-25-2008, 10:07 PM
Chris
You're talking to a couple of guys who both spent time in that basement dojo and either slept on the tatami in the spare room or upstairs next to the Kitchen.

I onlky wish my contract had lasted longer than two years. That was great training.

Howard Popkin
04-25-2008, 10:48 PM
Mark,

Not only is that guy a wussy, be he seems to have put on a few these days.

Chris,

That's me :)

Have fun !

Howard Popkin

Chris Parkerson
04-25-2008, 10:54 PM
Mark,

Not only is that guy a wussy, be he seems to have put on a few these days.

Chris,

That's me :)

Have fun !

Howard Popkin

I figured as much once Dan warned me and I reread the context.
Do you remember Frank Gallagher? I introduced him to Sensei Goldberg just before I left.

DH
04-25-2008, 10:54 PM
he seems to have put on a few these days.

Hmmm...
Too much fishin
Too much beer
Sound familiar?
Then again is there ever too much....:D

Howard Popkin
04-25-2008, 11:12 PM
Never too much fishing.

I don't drink all that much these days, but I talk a good game.

Be well,

Howard

Howard Popkin
04-25-2008, 11:13 PM
Sure I remember Frank, but its been a very long time.

I think I left there sometime early 93. Memory could be off though.

Howard

Chris Parkerson
04-25-2008, 11:24 PM
Sure I remember Frank, but its been a very long time.

I think I left there sometime early 93. Memory could be off though.

Howard

eye ended up working for Kissinger and Associates and could not continue. Became Director of Se urity there. Then in 2003, Kissinger recommended him to run security for L Paul Bremer in Iraq. I worked with him there for a while on a parallel contract. Then I read Bremer's book. He mentions Frank in it.

Chris Parkerson
04-25-2008, 11:26 PM
Sure I remember Frank, but its been a very long time.

I think I left there sometime early 93. Memory could be off though.

Howard

He ended up working for Kissinger and Associates and could not continue. Became Director of Security there. Then in 2003, Kissinger recommended him to run security for L Paul Bremer in Iraq. I worked with him there for a while on a parallel contract. Then I read Bremer's book. He mentions Frank in it.

tuturuhan
04-26-2008, 08:48 AM
[QUOTE=Mike Sigman;204536]
"Bully"? Odd how anyone who questions you has some sort of personal problem or is too far below you for you to respond. Wu De might be another good term for you to look up.

Mike,

Let me be clear. When I used the term "Bully" I was referring to you bullying others into believing you are an expert.

Let's see your tapes. Let's keep the discussion to skill and ability in martial practice.

Sincerely
Joseph

Mike Sigman
04-26-2008, 01:52 PM
Let me be clear. When I used the term "Bully" I was referring to you bullying others into believing you are an expert. Oh, Joseph... you and your big-city ways! Go back and read my posts where I've said a couple of times (at least) that I'm a beginner. An amateur. I admit it. You're the one saying how "advanced" you are. So figure it out using the non-sticking push-hands which you didn't know about and the "five-bows" which you don't know about. There is an amateur who apparently knows more than you do, yet you're claiming to be advanced. How does that work? One of us must not be what he's claiming to be.

However, I assure you that I am an amateur. But in some ways, I am a smart amateur because I know something that most amateurs don't really appear to know.... I *know* I am an amateur and I'm smart enough to admit it. The reason I know I am an amateur is that I compare myself to a few of the really advanced people I know and I see how much they know and can do that is beyond my skills.

So I think to myself that sure I can do enough impressive tricks to fool other amateurs and below, but would I fool a real expert? The answer is "no". So I don't bother pretending that I am something that I am not... because I'm smart enough to know that the charade would not stand up to scrutiny if a real expert was around. I would have thought that similar thinking would be the rule by most people, but I've found over the years that so many people are interested in being someone, in making money, etc., that they decide to go for the pose that they are advanced that they forget common sense. Let's see your tapes. Let's keep the discussion to skill and ability in martial practice. Well, who is going to judge me, if I posted some tapes? You? Heck, you don't even know what real push-hands is or how to do real ti fang or what the "five bows" mean.... would you suggest that you're going to judge me? ;)

Maybe you should go visit Dan, too! I can see that you like bridging and trapping, and you've obviously worked on some iron-palm training. Are you a coconut-breaker, too, like Chris? And hey, you know how to move your middle for certain applications, but you're not at the level where you control your body with your middle and you go to pure arm/shoulder usage a lot, which is short of real internal power usage. But all those areas would be greatly improved if you can find someone like Dan who is willing to work with people. You should give it a try. :D

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Ron Tisdale
04-26-2008, 03:02 PM
As an observer, let me be clear...Mike has done no bullying in this thread.

I also love it when the name dropping ends up with two long time participants of the dojo in question in attendance. Keeps the story telling to a minimum. :D

Best,
Ron

Kevin Leavitt
04-26-2008, 04:05 PM
Joseph Arriola wrote:

Yes, I am belligerent. Yes, I defend my standards. If I didn't I wouldn't be teaching people "how to defend themselves".

I have simply asked the recognized experts (by popularity vote) to demonstrate how you use their stuff to teach other "how to defend themselves".

As far as self defense goes..

What is the main focus of your self defense training?

What is the general profile of the people you teach? (civilians, military, police etc.)

What are the main risk or situations that your self defense training seeks to mitigate?

What are the top 5 situations that you would say you teach your students to defend themselves against?

How do you intergrate internal skills into those situations?

Just trying to get an idea of the context in which you are training self defense. I am trying to integrate internal skills into my training and I am always curious how others see it being implemented.

thanks!

Dan Austin
04-26-2008, 04:50 PM
Dan,

Yes, I am belligerent. Yes, I defend my standards. If I didn't I wouldn't be teaching people "how to defend themselves".

I have simply asked the recognized experts (by popularity vote) to demonstrate how you use their stuff to teach other "how to defend themselves".

Now, you can critique the tapes I have put up. You can say they are bad or good. The results speak for themselves. Do my opponents react to my technique? Are they in pain? Are they fearful? Am I hitting them with little or no external power?

This is sticking to the analysis and not reacting emotionally.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

You admit you are belligerent (you forgot condescending ;) ) and yet you accuse Mike of being the bully in this thread, which is clearly not the case. You mentioned fighting, he didn't. Now that you're being called on it, you want to talk about technique - except you want Mike to talk about it first even when you brought it up.

Now here you take a swipe at Mike, Dan, and Rob, and the whole board by saying their expertise is by "popularity vote". In other words we are all too amateur in your eyes to be able to judge our fellow martial artists, even though many people here possess decades of experience and have felt what these gentlemen do as compared to what hundreds of other martial artists of their experience do. Your stated 35 years of training is a) unverified, b) immaterial even if true, and c) doesn't automatically impress anyone else. All combined the people posting on this thread may have hundreds of man-years of experience in varied arts - it's not a roomful of rubes here who will mindlessly cheer every video and bit of wisdom you deign to share. Insulting the audience isn't going to impress them.

When asked a pointed question like how pushhands can properly break contact, you get belligerent, yet when called on your attitude now you want to talk technique. OK fine, so why then do you break contact in pushhands when no acknowledged Tai Chi masters do, and why does what they as acknowledged experts do look so different than what you do?

Jim Sorrentino
04-26-2008, 05:11 PM
Greetings All, I would love to see him again and see where he has gone with his art. It was a wonderful thing to feel even 16 years ago. Goldberg-sensei will teach a workshop at Aikido of Northern Virginia on June 13 and 14. Please see the announcement at http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14341.

There are reviews of two of Goldberg-sensei's previous seminars at http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12336 and http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9373&sid=51727033624e029a598ac58e09696827.

Jim

tuturuhan
04-26-2008, 06:37 PM
Connect and Disconnect in Push Hands

I've answered Mike's question several times. ("why do you disconnect" I will answer again. In Tai Chi Chuan you "blend, grasp and manipulate".

You blend by becoming one with your opponent. You grasp your opponent by keeping contact. Then you break the connection without him knowing the connection as been broken. You do so...to strike, joint lock, pressure point and grapple.

Watch this tape done at a Seminar in Rome, Italy. I break connection rather dramatically:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvwuw6ctjlo

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-26-2008, 07:02 PM
Then you break the connection without him knowing the connection as been broken. You do so...to strike, joint lock, pressure point and grapple. You know, Joseph... you really have no idea about what jin is or what taiji really is. I think the idea for you is that if you don't know, nobody knows. You need to take some lessons from a reputable instructor. It's not a case of "cup being too full"... I think it's a case of "blinded by one's own self's brilliance".

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Chris Parkerson
04-26-2008, 07:46 PM
Greetings All, Goldberg-sensei will teach a workshop at Aikido of Northern Virginia on June 13 and 14. Please see the announcement at http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14341.

There are reviews of two of Goldberg-sensei's previous seminars at http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12336 and http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9373&sid=51727033624e029a598ac58e09696827.

Jim

Yes Jim,

I saw your post on that. Thanks. I am hoping to attend that as well as the Akuzawa seminar. My issue is that I have a major contract in San Francisco about the same time and I am dependent on the client deciding the actual date on a last minute basis. Playing it by ear and hoping to get in at the last minute if there is still room.

tuturuhan
04-26-2008, 08:29 PM
Quote: Oh, Joseph... you and your big-city ways! Go back and read my posts where I've said a couple of times (at least) that I'm a beginner. An amateur. I admit it.

Mike,

How do you know about "jin" if you are a beginner? What do you tell your seminar attendees to entice them "as a beginner". No...I am sure you are an intermediate.

But, I'm a bit tired of asking you to show your videos (push hands, sparring, staff, knife, 3 sectional staff, or for indications of your vast audience of believers).

So, as an intermediate, how can you judge my skills if you are a beginner? Try not to be so insecure.

Now, since you've judged me...why do you waste your time asking me questions? Is it because you feel I am a danger to the public. Well, let me assure you I have a profession. I am a lawyer. I am married to a lawyer and I have two great kids. I have a bit of money in the bank and I have quite a properous life. You don't need to worry about me bamboozling the public.

Why don't you let me say my 2 cents and ignore me. If I am someone of no reckoning you should "tell eveyone and just let it go". But, I don't think your insecurities will let you do that.

But, if after you finish your tirade, some people are interested in coming to my classes and seminars great. Know...there is enough room for all of us. Obviously, you have your camp of believers. Though, I'm still kind of amazed given the fact you are a beginner.

Here is another tape to analyze: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKJlPnQyeIE

Can you see the Tai Chi Chuan here? Again, I prefer to talk with people who are interested in the analysis.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-26-2008, 08:47 PM
How do you know about "jin" if you are a beginner? Surely you don't think "jin" is an advanced or intermediate topic, Joseph? I thought you were knowledgeable? What do you tell your seminar attendees to entice them "as a beginner". No...I am sure you are an intermediate. Except I don't do seminars for any real part of my livelihood, Joseph, so I don't "entice" anyone. Occasionally I do workshops IF I am invited and IF I decide I want to do them. I'm not trying to set up an empire with sub-teachers in the Bay Area. But, I'm a bit tired of asking you to show your videos (push hands, sparring, staff, knife, 3 sectional staff, or for indications of your vast audience of believers). Even an amateur should know that Taiji and the related arts are part of the 18-weapons traditional systems. Three-sectional staff? Are you serious? Well, let me assure you I have a profession. I am a lawyer. I am married to a lawyer and I have two great kids. I have a bit of money in the bank and I have quite a properous life. You don't need to worry about me bamboozling the public. How does any of that preclude you from trying to bamboozle the public? Anyone can decide to promote themselves as more than they are. Why don't you let me say my 2 cents and ignore me. [snipo] But, if after you finish your tirade, some people are interested in coming to my classes and seminars great. Know...there is enough room for all of us. Obviously, you have your camp of believers. Though, I'm still kind of amazed given the fact you are a beginner. Actually, I happen to see the martial arts as something other than a contest to see who can be worshipped, Joseph. I'm not sure you will understand that, though.

Here is another tape to analyze: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKJlPnQyeIE

Can you see the Tai Chi Chuan here? No. Neither the movements or the approach has anything to do with Taiji, Joseph. You are lost in a world of techniques, not Taiji.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Kevin Leavitt
04-27-2008, 02:28 AM
Chris wrote:

Yes Jim,

I saw your post on that. Thanks. I am hoping to attend that as well as the Akuzawa seminar. My issue is that I have a major contract in San Francisco about the same time and I am dependent on the client deciding the actual date on a last minute basis. Playing it by ear and hoping to get in at the last minute if there is still room.

Hope you can make it, I will be at both of them and would like to meet you in person if you can make it!

Chris Parkerson
04-27-2008, 04:48 AM
Chris wrote:

Hope you can make it, I will be at both of them and would like to meet you in person if you can make it!

I feel the same way Kevin. Looking forward to (1) being there at the 2 seminars and /or (2) meeting you.

I love your posts and cannot wait to meet you.

tuturuhan
04-27-2008, 07:08 AM
Mike,

What do you do?

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-27-2008, 09:50 AM
What do you do?
I am a Trophy Husband.

Dan Austin
04-27-2008, 12:42 PM
Mike,

What do you do?

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

I'll let you and Mike get on with your lovefest, but this question always fascinates me. In America it's common to ask this on meeting someone, while in many other countries it's considered extremely rude. If you think about it, it's no less a "how shall I label you" question than asking everyone immediately what their ethnic background is. It really has no bearing on having a conversation about economics, current events, your last vacation, or your hobbies - unless of course you wish to assert your superior social status and imply that your opinions should therefore have more weight. On a basic human level, I have to agree that it's a fundamentally rude question to ask.

Mike Sigman
04-27-2008, 01:02 PM
I'll let you and Mike get on with your lovefest, but this question always fascinates me. In America it's common to ask this on meeting someone, while in many other countries it's considered extremely rude. If you think about it, it's no less a "how shall I label you" question than asking everyone immediately what their ethnic background is. It really has no bearing on having a conversation about economics, current events, your last vacation, or your hobbies - unless of course you wish to assert your superior social status and imply that your opinions should therefore have more weight. On a basic human level, I have to agree that it's a fundamentally rude question to ask.

Odd you should say that, Dan. The way I was raised, it is considered an extremely rude question to ask someone. And I'm always surprised when someone just comes out and asks me. Unless of course it is some gold-digger in a singles bar. ;)

But I'm glad to hear someone else suggest the idea that it's rude to inquire (unless of course you are on familiar terms and/or friends to some extent) boldly about someone's personal business. I'd begun to think I was some sort of atavism from Victorian times. :)

In case you get frustrated with the level of discourse, though, always remember the old saying: "The lord must really love the common man; he made so many of them."

Best.

Mike

G DiPierro
04-27-2008, 02:16 PM
But, I'm a bit tired of asking you to show your videos (push hands, sparring, staff, knife, 3 sectional staff, or for indications of your vast audience of believers).

So, as an intermediate, how can you judge my skills if you are a beginner? Try not to be so insecure.

When Mike says he is a beginner he is not comparing himself to any US taiji teachers but to a handful of guys in China who have been training in taiji several hours a day since they were 6. I don't think any of them read this forum anyway so I don't think he has anything to worry about.

The reason he and other beginners like me (and I don't have anywhere close to the level of knowledge about taiji that Mike does) can judge your skills is that we have seen and felt people who are real taiji experts and it's obvious that you are not one of them. Your response to this is that your skills are so advanced that us mere mortals are simply unable to comprehend them. However, I am willing to bet that if the reaction to your videos had been more favorable that you would have had no problems with our qualifications to judge your skills. It is only because we did not rate them favorably that you suddenly have decided that we are unqualified to judge you.

Remember that you were the one who posted your videos on the internet and then came to this forum asking for comments on them. We didn't come to you asking to see your videos. When it turned out that those comments were not what you were expecting you got upset and told us that we don't know what we are talking about. If that's what you think then why do you continue to frequent this forum? Surely there must be other places you could go where people appreciate your skills as much as you do and will tell you the kinds of things you want to hear about your videos.

Kevin Leavitt
04-27-2008, 03:29 PM
"What do you do"...I also don't like that question, I never know how to answer it, I do so much and in so many different ways.

I try really hard to not ask the question, but sometimes not asking it seems to be rude when having conversations with people on airplanes. I always try and ask it in a different way such as, so what do you do for your career or profession/trade.

My personal philosophy is it is wrong to assume that someone is defined by their career or profession. People are so much more than that.

tuturuhan
04-27-2008, 03:44 PM
Mike has secret knowledge eh...I can acknowledge that.

But, it would be nice to expand on his knowledge a bit. Especially if you want me to accept his "beginner's" critique of my skills.

I usually judge the veracity of a man's statements by his lifestyle, his occupation, his successes in life. But, I guess this is secret knowledge. If we were in court he would be asked "to swear under penalty of perjury". Sadly, this is the wild west internet where people can say anything they want and not back it up.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-27-2008, 04:05 PM
I usually judge the veracity of a man's statements by his lifestyle, his occupation, his successes in life. Oh, stoppit. You're on the verge of insulting a lot of people with that sort of off-topic elitism. Weren't you the one on the verge of running amok when you speciously began howling about "prejudice" against Pilipinos?

Is it possible to get back on topic? Drop some more pearls on us about Taiji and the "internal" mechanics. Once again, let me ask you what style of Taiji you claim to have studied for some many years. Certainly if you're going to expound on how your Kali is somehow "Tai Chi", you can support it something more tangible than the fact that you are a lawyer?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

HL1978
04-27-2008, 04:08 PM
Mike has secret knowledge eh...I can acknowledge that.

But, it would be nice to expand on his knowledge a bit. Especially if you want me to accept his "beginner's" critique of my skills.

I usually judge the veracity of a man's statements by his lifestyle, his occupation, his successes in life. But, I guess this is secret knowledge. If we were in court he would be asked "to swear under penalty of perjury". Sadly, this is the wild west internet where people can say anything they want and not back it up.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

I don't think Mike's background, or just about anyone else who post's here on aikiweb's background is secret knowledge. We all have posting histories, where we have provided some personal details/knowledge etc, plus from the way someone discusses/explains etc online, you can gather some insight into what knowledge they posses/career etc.

If you are curious, just read through some older posts, or checkout the baseline skillset threads (all 50+ pages), and you can see some hints of what various posters know, or are prodding people in the right direction. Don't be some sort of internet stalker, but it is one way to track a changing understanding of knowledge in these skills (I can look back on my own experience over the years and see how its changed).

Mike, Rob, Dan, and various other people don't really play "buzzword bingo" when discussing these internal skills, and none of them really care about being any sort of grand pubah either. They are more concerned about what is at the core of these skills, any usually make any sort of judgment that they can in an online context in terms of how one explains how to generate/manipulate various forces within the body.

Now here is the wierd thing, to someone who might not be moving in a manner similar to Mike, Rob, Dan and others (some with CMA, some with JMA, and some with a mix) ; once they have had the chance to touch hands etc, even if they are using different vocabularly to express these concepts (or suddenly the exisiting vocabularly makes sense in why you do wha you do/the real purpose of various exercises), the way in which they explain it using simple terms changes. Its not like it is a secret code (the buzzword bingo i refered to), more the way in which they converse about them.

Id prefer to get back on topic discussing the skills/movement, rather than who someone trained with, or what they do.

Kevin Leavitt
04-27-2008, 04:49 PM
Joseph wrote:

I usually judge the veracity of a man's statements by his lifestyle, his occupation, his successes in life

Sweet...so if I told you I as a ass kicking U.S. Army Infantry Airborne Ranger trained in 50 different ways to kill a man with bullets, knifes, and empty hand...then that would qualify me to be able to judge you martially?

Just asking....you seem to ignore my question I asked early concerning self defense. I assume you dismissed them as not interesting or not relevant to the conversation....

But since we are now dropping occupations as a qualification or judgement of a man's abilities, skills, knowledge or character....

Kevin Leavitt
04-27-2008, 04:51 PM
On a serious note....

I personally have not found Mike to keep much of anything a secret...in fact the exact opposite. He has gone out of his way to share his knowledge with me.

One reason I have been so quiet with him lately is that I haven't exactly lived up to my end of the bargain as well as I should be on doing the exercises that he taught me to do to start getting on with this stuff.

Mike has been very forth coming with information, knowledge, and teaching.

G DiPierro
04-27-2008, 04:53 PM
I usually judge the veracity of a man's statements by his lifestyle, his occupation, his successes in life. But, I guess this is secret knowledge. If we were in court he would be asked "to swear under penalty of perjury". Sadly, this is the wild west internet where people can say anything they want and not back it up.Well we certainly aren't in court, but aikiweb isn't exactly the wild west of the internet either. This isn't 4chan. People here post under their real names and many people have met and trained together in real life. Mike's met up with a lot of people on this forum and demonstrated his skills in person. Read through the archives.

In a court of law, jurors who are not domain experts have to judge conflicting testimony based on relatively brief exposure to a witness, so lifestyle issues often become a easy rule-of-thumb for credibility. Psychologists call this the fundamental attribution error. On the internet, you can actually judge someone's level of knowledge by the strengths of that person's arguments and counterarguments in a forum populated by domain experts.

I consider Mike a knowledgable source on taiji because the more I have learned about the art, the more I have been able to verify that his opinions are accurate. In contrast, I do not consider him a credible source on politics because I do not find his arguments on that subject at all compelling compared to what I have encountered elsewhere. However, neither of these judgements have anything to do with his lifestyle, personality, or choice of career. I have never met him and have no idea what he does for a living, nor do I consider that a particularly relevent matter in formulating these assessments.

tuturuhan
04-27-2008, 08:51 PM
Joseph wrote:

Sweet...so if I told you I as a ass kicking U.S. Army Infantry Airborne Ranger trained in 50 different ways to kill a man with bullets, knifes, and empty hand...then that would qualify me to be able to judge you martially?

Just asking....you seem to ignore my question I asked early concerning self defense. I assume you dismissed them as not interesting or not relevant to the conversation....

But since we are now dropping occupations as a qualification or judgement of a man's abilities, skills, knowledge or character....

Kevin,

My personal view is that any man that "puts a roof over his family's head and food on their table is a "success" and a real man in my book.

So how do we determine who is real is real and who is not? If they have not accomplished the above, we are left with the following when it comes to real marital arts:

1) technique: Can the teacher fight. Can he beat
99% of those who walk in his doors. With his hands,
with his mind, with a telephone or pencil and paper;
can he take out his opponents?

2) conceptual: Can he apply his "success and
prosperity" in the ring, to his life. In other words,
does he put food on the table and a roof over the
heads of his family? Can he excel in his career? Is
he an expert in other areas? (e.g. the best flower
arranger, the best ditch digger, the best checker
player)

3) spiritual: Does he lead his life in the big and
the small? Is there contentment and the desire to
achieve, managed and balanced all throughout his life.
Does he see death as the natural progression of life?
Today, sadly "mastery" is a popularity contest. If
you get enough backers, who buy into "your" story, you
are dubbed a master. As such, I judge a person by the
generalized parameters set forth above.

You sir, I respect as a father, a husband, and as a leader of men.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Kevin Leavitt
04-27-2008, 11:08 PM
Thanks for taking the time to explain further your position.

TAnderson
04-28-2008, 09:44 AM
Which makes me wonder why some still use the term "secret technique". It's not a very good secret if it's the foundation of an art that millions of people outside of your school are practicing.

Hopefully getting back on topic here....

I think the "secret" really has more to do with one's understanding of the principle and how to use it across a wide range of applications. For example, from Jim's original post, an understanding of Tohei's "Keep Weight Underside" principle (or a combination of Extend Ki, Keep Weight Underside, Keep One Point, etc.) could be applied to pull off that technique, trick, etc. Without feeling the person its hard to say what principles were at play.

Anyway, my point is this stuff is out there so I don't think the term secret can be applied. However, the most efficient way to ingrain (how one trains) and apply these principles is more the secret. I will say it is starting to look like one martial arts secret is another's basics. Aikido would do well to look at and train these things as basics so higher levels can be achieved by practitioners. Fortunately, some instructors are trying to do just that.

Best,
Tim Anderson

tuturuhan
04-28-2008, 11:42 AM
IMO...one of the secrets is taking what you know and "playing" with others.

"Quote: So your remarks about the aikido not crossing over
to other martial pursuits, etc. seems accurate to me as well." by the Wonderous Channel Dave Chesser agreeing with Ed. "Formosa Neijia Discussions on Google Groups"

In the mid 1960's Tohei first came over to the United States. He stopped in Hawaii and gave a demonstration. He asked if any members of the audience would like to participate in his demonstration.

This is quite remarkable because Tohei had to know he was taking a risk. He would be going against an unknown. He would be potentially going against someone who would not be compliant.

When Tohei made the challenge, a man in the audience pointed to a second man and said "he will accept your challenge". That second man was my teacher's teacher the legendary fighter of "death matches" Floro Villabrille.

Tohei did a technique and Villabrille countered the joint lock. Tohei then countered the counter. When the exhange was over, Villabrille asked "lets choose weapons and do it for real".

Tohei simply replied "Your technique is good".

Instead of the sectarianism that Dave talks about, back then, each martial artist knew how to blend to and adapt their methods. They knew and studied the other man's game until the other man's game was added to their arsenal.

Today, most are locked in their own boxes...pretending that others do not exist. Like Tohei, we must have the courage to make challenges to test our skills...to hone rather than rust.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-28-2008, 11:57 AM
Today, most are locked in their own boxes...pretending that others do not exist. Like Tohei, we must have the courage to make challenges to test our skills...to hone rather than rust.

Chen Xiaowang workshop in San Francisco, Oct 4-5, 2008.
Contact: Tony Wong 415-378-8661

He does real Taiji.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Chris Parkerson
04-28-2008, 12:16 PM
Joe Arriola wrote:
When Tohei made the challenge, a man in the audience pointed to a second man and said "he will accept your challenge". That second man was my teacher's teacher the legendary fighter of "death matches" Floro Villabrille.

Tohei did a technique and Villabrille countered the joint lock. Tohei then countered the counter. When the exhange was over, Villabrille asked "lets choose weapons and do it for real".

Tohei simply replied "Your technique is good".

Wow, that story was what true ecumenism is about. Display technique, discuss technique, turn the spear (bu) that comes from anger, fear or pride. Allow all people respect and compliment their good points. An old Kungfu saying:

"Do not strike a man on an old wound or ridicule him about a past disgrace"

Who knows who might have won... Villabrille or Tohei. That they did not fight was a treasure to us all. If they collaborated, how much more of a treasure.

tuturuhan
04-28-2008, 12:17 PM
Chen Xiaowang workshop in San Francisco, Oct 4-5, 2008.
Contact: Tony Wong 415-378-8661

He does real Taiji.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Folks,

Here is a tape of Chen Xiaowang. I wonder how much of this "you" want to learn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE

Lots of pushing. Lots of disconnection. Do we see 4 ounces moving 2000 pounds? Can "they" use chin na (joint technique)? Can they cavity strike? Can they use the "one touch kill"?

How different is this from two 6th graders getting into a shoving match? Where is the finesse, the softness, the "empty force of qi"?

I put this tape up not to denigrate. I put this tape up simply to compare and contrast. Yes, I question "teachers, linages and mythology". We should all question. The analysis is important.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Ron Tisdale
04-28-2008, 12:21 PM
I thought the expression was "4 ounces deflecting a thousand pounds"?

I really don't know anything about Taiji, but that is the expression as I heard it.

Best,
Ron

HL1978
04-28-2008, 12:23 PM
Folks,

Here is a tape of Chen Xiaowang. I wonder how much of this "you" want to learn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE

Lots of pushing. Lots of disconnection. Do we see 4 ounces moving 2000 pounds? Can "they" use chin na (joint technique)? Can they cavity strike? Can they use the "one touch kill"?

How different is this from two 6th graders getting into a shoving match? Where is the finesse, the softness, the "empty force of qi"?

I put this tape up not to denigrate. I put this tape up simply to compare and contrast. Yes, I question "teachers, linages and mythology". We should all question. The analysis is important.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Actually in that video, I didn't see CXW (who I believe is the one in long sleaves) do much of anything, rather the other guy was pushing a lot.

Chris Parkerson
04-28-2008, 12:29 PM
Folks,

Here is a tape of Chen Xiaowang. I wonder how much of this "you" want to learn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE

Lots of pushing. Lots of disconnection. Do we see 4 ounces moving 2000 pounds? Can "they" use chin na (joint technique)? Can they cavity strike? Can they use the "one touch kill"?

We should all question. The analysis is important.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Perhaps we are seeing the whole rather than the particles within.
To separate or not to separate is not the real question. Perhaps the key question is when can we separate and when we cannot.

If you have stuck and caused an opponent to begin into a "path of action" however large or small, and if you have placed your body in a position that he cannot intentionally or accidentally hit you, then you are in control and you may choose whether to perform a sticky attack or a percussive strike that may first require a separation.

Surely we all do that is a freeform rondori or scrimmage.

Michael Douglas
04-28-2008, 01:04 PM
I am a lawyer. I am married to a lawyer and I have two great kids. I have a bit of money in the bank and I have quite a properous life. You don't need to worry about me bamboozling the public.
I had to laugh.
I thought bamboozling was primarily what lawyers did for a living?

(Please learn to use the quote function properly, it will keep conversations clearer)

Michael Douglas
04-28-2008, 01:09 PM
I usually judge the veracity of a man's statements by his lifestyle, his occupation, his successes in life.
Occupation?? for most people their occupation is undertaken to pay the bills. You some kind of bigot? (Rhetorical)
You can't even write properly.

Michael Douglas
04-28-2008, 01:19 PM
...But, if after you finish your tirade, some people are interested in coming to my classes and seminars great. Know...there is enough room for all of us. Obviously, you have your camp of believers. Though, I'm still kind of amazed given the fact you are a beginner.

Here is another tape to analyze: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKJlPnQyeIE

Can you see the Tai Chi Chuan here? Again, I prefer to talk with people who are interested in the analysis.
Stop messing with the floppy guy's arm.
He's in a seminar.
You just told him to relax, then proceeded to push him, jerk him and mess around with his arm.
He isn't even socially permitted to tense up much less resist your fumblings!

Did he get his money back?

Michael Douglas
04-28-2008, 01:23 PM
Here is a tape of Chen Xiaowang. I wonder how much of this "you" want to learn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE

Lots of pushing. Lots of disconnection.
I've seen that video before, I really enjoyed it.
An real angry push-hands contest. CONTEST. Not drill, not training, not seminar.
One of the extremely rare instances of something actually contentious above beginner level.
Thanks for reposting that one.

Haowen Chan
04-28-2008, 01:59 PM
I've seen that video before, I really enjoyed it.
An real angry push-hands contest. CONTEST. Not drill, not training, not seminar.
One of the extremely rare instances of something actually contentious above beginner level.
Thanks for reposting that one.

I don't know the specifics of the video but it looks like a simple demo to me, not a contest at all. Chen Xiaowang does not reply with his own attacks but simply invites the pushes and neutralizes them. Liao Bai is trying to find an opening for a straight-in push (you see in the beginning of the video Chen actually gestures and tells him what kind of attack to attempt: "two handed push, straight on the chest"), Liao tries several times quite powerfully, but cannot find any flaws in Chen's stance.

Michael Douglas
04-28-2008, 02:23 PM
Haowen, what does someone shout at the end? I was wondering. (Maybe it's just "stop"?)

I had no idea Chen was suggesting the attack to try, I thought from the activity he was defending from a rather keen contender without himself making any offensive moves. It was certainly non-compliant if it was a demo.

Mike Sigman
04-28-2008, 02:43 PM
I don't know the specifics of the video but it looks like a simple demo to me, not a contest at all. Chen Xiaowang does not reply with his own attacks but simply invites the pushes and neutralizes them. Liao Bai is trying to find an opening for a straight-in push (you see in the beginning of the video Chen actually gestures and tells him what kind of attack to attempt: "two handed push, straight on the chest"), Liao tries several times quite powerfully, but cannot find any flaws in Chen's stance.Actually, I heard about that one, since I could see that CXW was inviting the other guy to "go ahead and try" but he wasn't replying himself (him letting other people "try" without him responding is something he's known for). Turns out that CXW was giving a workshop on Taiwan and the guy who was supposed to take him for lunch suddenly said something like, "Oh, let's run upstairs in this building for a minute so you can meet some friends of mine." So CXW followed along and lo and behold it was a setup with a room full of guys, a video camera and this moron Liao Bai. Given the number of gangsters on Taiwan, CXW stayed placid and did that "oh, go ahead and try thing". And not knowing if one of these idiots had a gun, he kept the excitement level in the low numbers. But notice that he didn't bother to reply to Liao Bai. I know of one similar contest where CXW met with a guy 3 times and never replied until the last one. Then he said, "OK you have met with me 3 times and tried your best. Now I will try so prepare yourself." And then he put the guy through the wall.

However, it's interesting in this video to watch CXW set himself up, his position, etc., when he's dealing with someone trying to honestly hurt him. I learned a lot from that.

I think Arriola's snide remarks teach us something, too, though.

FWIW

Mike

TAnderson
04-28-2008, 02:59 PM
Folks,

Here is a tape of Chen Xiaowang. I wonder how much of this "you" want to learn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE

Lots of pushing. Lots of disconnection. Do we see 4 ounces moving 2000 pounds? Can "they" use chin na (joint technique)? Can they cavity strike? Can they use the "one touch kill"?

How different is this from two 6th graders getting into a shoving match? Where is the finesse, the softness, the "empty force of qi"?

I put this tape up not to denigrate. I put this tape up simply to compare and contrast. Yes, I question "teachers, linages and mythology". We should all question. The analysis is important.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Ok, so here is Tohei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpoT-Kzxr4c

Based on what you said how is the Tohei video different. I think you should consider context a little more.

Tim Anderson

Erick Mead
04-28-2008, 04:26 PM
You know, Joseph... you really have no idea about what jin is or what taiji really is. In an effort to let Joseph know that there is more than disputatious personality involved in Mike's critique of the movement, (as to what it is) let me point out that Mike and have I disagreed (at laborious length, See: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11629 ) on categories and concepts involving these things. He both doubts my bona fides and mocks my concepts openly (in this very thread earlier) and I demand that he use physical concpets accurately and not metaphorically, and so here we are: (Angular Momentum + Moment, Mike -- don't forget moment).

But plainly what he can be seen doing in other videos around, and what Joseph can be seen doing are not the same things, nor is what Joseph shows the same thing as what Ark is doing in the push-hands. I have no brief for Mike, Dan or Rob.

Joseph, in my terms, is using linear momentum by lunge and collision, where as Mike in things I have seen is poising (yes, Mike) moments and angular momentum (potential and actual rotations) to affect the body in wave-like ways. "Fa-jin", as I see it, and again in my terms, is making the fist (or whatever makes contact) deliver into the target what the cracking whip delivers into the air.

They will likely not agree with any of the following but I will attempt to draw correspondence between what they have related of their understanding of structural dynamic and mine -- from a purely mechanical basis .

I will suggest a related answer to Rob's earlier question "Why does a punch spiral?" Neither the arm nor the whip can intersect itself like the fluid in a wave can, so the spiral is the minimal energy shape [see here: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/MinimalSurface.html ] for a linearly linked structure getting out of the way of its own momentum/moment.

The minimal surface of the helicoid spiral ( http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Helicoid.html) is the minimal surface for linear limb segments rotating in space. It may be used for structurally dissipating into other axes applied moments ( whihc at contact are always in a given plane - another minimal surface). The third minimal surface is a catenoid, (See here: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Catenoid.html ] roughly the shape of a nuclear cooling tower. In cross section it is the shape of two catenaries head to head.

The catenary (hanging chain) is the shape of tegatana. It is the shape of Rob's description of upper and lower arches, as in Aunkai's structural understanding. If you take a step in either the left or right axis in Aunkai's understanding those arches ( or any such arch) form traverse a catenoid, skewed in this case because of the eccentricity.

The catenary is also is the shape of the transverse limb of the "upper cross" -- understood as an sort of horseshoe arch formed by joining the two tegatana in tension across the shoulder girdle. It is also the shape of the lordosis curve of the lower back which Ark uses to great effect in the push-hands kuzushi. Half a catenary is still a catenary, so Mike can also find his five bows in there, somewhere (leg, leg, spine, arm, arm).

The catenary as a special case of generic "funicular" loads, (weights on a rope), also relates to the adjustment of the shape of the arm to bring the most forward moment to the front of the elbow, (hiriki -- in Yoshinkan)

Dan doesn't conceptualize his work, more power to him, so I cannot speak to his terms since I am not getting up to Mass. anytime soon. :p

I won't belabor our differing categories beyond that. In those terms, however, what Joseph shows is not fa-jin. It is not a minimal structural-energy movement.

Yes, Dan, Rob and Mike, I know that as to my understanding, you want demonstrables in your terms, but I have my path and it moves me along, so let's leave that all as read, shall we.

But I have eyes and my own means of comprehension too, and the differences of what is shown here are quite obvious, and the criticism toward Joseph seems in good faith.

akiy
04-28-2008, 04:55 PM
Hi everyone,

I don't appreciate the rather personal tone that's being exhibited by some here in this thread. Please watch your tone. Let's try to address the issues, folks.

-- Jun

Mike Sigman
04-28-2008, 09:47 PM
Mike and have I disagreed (at laborious length, See: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11629 ) on categories and concepts involving these things. He both doubts my bona fides and mocks my concepts openly (in this very thread earlier) and I demand that he use physical concpets accurately and not metaphorically, and so here we are: (Angular Momentum + Moment, Mike -- don't forget moment). I think that sums up the crux of your argument, Erick. You insist that description of ki and kokyu adapt to your own understanding of what they are. But this is old territory. "Fa-jin", as I see it, and again in my terms, is making the fist (or whatever makes contact) deliver into the target what the cracking whip delivers into the air. True, in your terms you see "fajin" as you will. This is why I encourage you to get out and see/experience more. Half a catenary is still a catenary, so Mike can also find his five bows in there, somewhere (leg, leg, spine, arm, arm). I suppose I could go on at length and explain why this idea of yours is simply superficial and wrong, but the problem is that I'd have to establish a groundwork that is too extensive and tenuous in practicality. Let me just say that the idea of "five bows" is not that simple. If it was that simple, it wouldn't be worth noting. Anyone can imagine the bowing and storing of normal "energy" in the 4 limbs and the spine.... but unfortunately it implies something more sophisticated than that, so all caternaries are swallowed by the dog. ;)

But back to the question at hand... other than superstrings, quantum mechanics, Brownian movement, and angular momentum, how would you practically coach someone to do what the OP asked?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Erick Mead
04-28-2008, 10:57 PM
You insist that description of ki and kokyu adapt to your own understanding of what they are. Physics is not my invention.

True, in your terms you see "fajin" as you will. Not only aikidoka suggest this is the proper course -- Sagawa does, too.

... how would you practically coach someone to do what the OP asked? Thing is, I already have, several times on this forum in fact -- in exactly these terms -- arches, chains, and mechanisms exploiting angular momentum. The OP did not specify, but I presume that the lift was by the arms, one to each uke. If so, it is a modification of unliftable body, in which the opponent tries to push up on a slack chain -- that is falling on him.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=187327&postcount=1548
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=163293&postcount=435
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=155911&postcount=43

There was also a video of a DTR man, (Kondo, perhaps) knocking down about six or so who had him lifted up in the air, which I also analyzed but I cannot find it now. He used a wave of mass transfer (the same mechanism of an effective punch) to domino the whole assembly down under him. He basically undulated, using angular momentum to project his mass just off their base of support. They couldn't coordinate to hold him at such a length from the collective base, and they all fell over. (Sort of a vertical version of the same mechanics as are in the "jo trick.") Akira Hino ( I think) was also posted in a video a while back.demonstrating something similar, and it may have been his that I analyzed here, but I saw both of them.

Just because I get the mechanics of it does not diminish significance of the art and feel in doing it.

Dan Austin
04-28-2008, 11:27 PM
Just because I get the mechanics of it does not diminish significance of the art and feel in doing it.

Erick,

You're obviously a bright guy, if a bit too proud of yourself for it, but how does after-the-fact analysis help anyone to replicate what Mike is talking about? This unliftable body stuff is obviously a parlor trick of sorts, and a parlor trick by definition can be done by anyone who knows the secret. Clearly it wouldn't take years of training to condition the body a certain way and ingrain particular mechanics to do something that only requires knowing a trick. I think your physics analysis could be useful if you had the ability to do the things talked about. Then you can optimize and say, well, the knee joint doing X has effect Y and so the hip should do Z, and you'd probably find it to be exactly what's been found through hundreds of years by trial and error anyway. But at least then it could be a help. Until you actually gain some degree of proficiency, it's all a lot of blackboard physics masturbation. Step 1 is meeting one of these gentlemen and discovering that you haven't the foggiest idea of how to actually do what they do.

Erick Mead
04-29-2008, 12:33 AM
... how does after-the-fact analysis help anyone to replicate what Mike is talking about? This unliftable body stuff is obviously a parlor trick of sorts, and a parlor trick by definition can be done by anyone who knows the secret. Well, it was the parlor trick the OP asked about and Mike asked me to respond to.

Clearly it wouldn't take years of training to condition the body a certain way and ingrain particular mechanics to do something that only requires knowing a trick. You don't know any talented magicians then, I take it. The trick is no substitute for seamless action arrived at by dedicated practice -- like anything else. Somehow, I think you would agree with me on that.

I think your physics analysis could be useful if you had the ability to do the things talked about. Yes, I find it useful.

Then you can optimize and say, well, the knee joint doing X has effect Y and so the hip should do Z, and you'd probably find it to be exactly what's been found through hundreds of years by trial and error anyway. But at least then it could be a help. But that is not quite what it is useful for. And the results of trial and error methods can only be obtained by -- repeating the trial and error - streamlined a bit, maybe some old rabbit trail closed off for sure, but the basic trial and error remains if that's the technical foundation your working with. As a matter of obtaining the feel and the art there is no substitute. As a matter of refining it, there may be other ways to guide the training along more rigorously.

Until you actually gain some degree of proficiency, it's all a lot of blackboard physics masturbation. Step 1 is meeting one of these gentlemen and discovering that you haven't the foggiest idea of how to actually do what they do.See, that's why I haven't touched a blackboard in years -- I mean, who knows where those things have been ?!? :eek:

You don't know me. I know nothing about you, and do you the same courtesy of assuming nothing about you without evidence. And lack of evidence is not proof of anything. And I might just suggest that my project and the observations stem from from things that I do with fair regularity and the basis for which has been too foggy for my liking. It is an effort to unfog my ideas about it in an objective arena, and deciding who is better than whom is not part of that. Read what Sagawa has to say about teaching and training aiki and you will understand me better.

Jim Sorrentino
04-29-2008, 08:02 AM
Chris, I figured as much once Dan warned me and I reread the context.
Do you remember Frank Gallagher? I introduced him to Sensei Goldberg just before I left. It seems to me that you have been down this road before, on Aikido Journal's Daito Ryu Technique forum: http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5409&sid=4ad4c1ae0d136835c7804e0b27205f8e. (Alas, it appears that Dan Harden has deleted his post(s?) from that thread. ;)) Of course, now we have the benefit of streaming video.

Jim

Mike Sigman
04-29-2008, 08:21 AM
Well, it was the parlor trick the OP asked about and Mike asked me to respond to.

My mistake. I should never have asked; we're back into the same old territory. Erick, as Dan Austin and a number of others have suggested in the past, you need to get out and find someone who is perhaps still willing to show you these things.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Michael Douglas
04-29-2008, 09:02 AM
I don't appreciate the rather personal tone that's being exhibited by some here in this thread. Please watch your tone. Let's try to address the issues, folks.
-- Jun
I apologise for my nasty post 121, I can't edit it at the mo.
Feel free to remove the last line, infact please do so if that's possible.
I was way too rude for this forum.
Thanks for the sensible moderation.

Michael Douglas
04-29-2008, 09:11 AM
This unliftable body stuff is obviously a parlor trick of sorts, and a parlor trick by definition can be done by anyone who knows the secret. Clearly it wouldn't take years of training to condition the body a certain way and ingrain particular mechanics to do something that only requires knowing a trick.
If only eastern martial artists would stop doing theatrical parlour tricks in their Demonstrations!
I think they will continue as long as the demonstrator is himself deluded into believing their veracity by over-helpful or gullible students.
I believe in his late years Ueshiba was affected by this

You don't know any talented magicians then, I take it. The trick is no substitute for seamless action arrived at by dedicated practice -- like anything else.
Yes! Good parlour tricks are hard to do! Takes training and cunning.

Different topic ;
...
However, it's interesting in this video to watch CXW set himself up, his position, etc., when he's dealing with someone trying to honestly hurt him. I learned a lot from that.
I learned more from that Video than from ALL the other push-hands vids I've ever seen. (I don't practice push-hands by the way).

Mark Jakabcsin
04-29-2008, 09:58 AM
However, it's interesting in this video to watch CXW set himself up, his position, etc., when he's dealing with someone trying to honestly hurt him. I learned a lot from that.

Mike

Mike,
While this is not directly related to the topic at hand I am wondering if all push hands are done with the students facing each other. Is push hands ever trained with the students say, side by side, at odd angles or say on stairs? Something to change it up. Also are there ever any multiple person push hands? Say one guy in the middle and with one in front and one behind? Or say all three facing each other? I am just wondering how far out of the traditional face off this training goes. Thanks.

Mark J.

Mike Sigman
04-29-2008, 10:35 AM
Mike,
While this is not directly related to the topic at hand I am wondering if all push hands are done with the students facing each other. Is push hands ever trained with the students say, side by side, at odd angles or say on stairs? Something to change it up. Also are there ever any multiple person push hands? Say one guy in the middle and with one in front and one behind? Or say all three facing each other? I am just wondering how far out of the traditional face off this training goes. Thanks.Well, push-hands is traditionally delayed until someone has developed some jin/kokyu skills, because push-hands is then the start of learning to use those basic skills in relationship with a partner. If you think about it, Tohei's style has *some* cognates... i.e., the Ki-Society approach (not that I think they're all that successful) doesn't first teach a lot of waza and then try to go back and put ki/kokyu skills into them; they try to not waste time like that.

So anyway, push-hands traditionally starts off with a series of patterns. Those patterns teach moving constantly and unbrokenly with jin/kokyu-skills and they also teach the basic 4 responses in Taiji. Those are the teaching methods of push-hands. However, the success of those teaching methods can usually be seen at a glance, if the results are poor enough, or with a feel (if there is some question). The point to bear in mind is that push-hands is a training methodology to teach jin/kokyu skills and basic technique; it is not fighting.

What happens on the popular front is that push-hands becomes a contest. A form of pretty safe competition. By far and away, most "push-hands competition" is not real or good push-hands but is in effect simply a safe venue to play domination games. In real Taiji, there is a lot of emphasis on throws, locks, and enormous power-releases. In China, during push-hands competitions, the Chen-stylists are not allowed to use the "shaking power" because the other styles aren't trained in it and it is too potentially damaging. So one of the major weapons of Taiji is removed from official contests. If you extrapolate further, you can see that angles and numbers of attackers are simply offshoots of this very basic and clever training methodology.

What we saw on the Liao Bai videotape was sort of interesting. When I first sas the tape, I knew immediately that it was not a push-hands contest, so I put out feelers to see what happened (I posted it previously). So think about it. This guy Liao Bai, instead of approaching Chen Xiaowang legitimately, set up a trap for Chen Xiaowang. But it's immediately obvious that Liao Bai wanted to have a contest in a sort of push-hands mode because it would be safer for him. Pretty soon it's obvious that Liao Bai's main claim to fame is his apparent sudden power release (which appears to be White Crane in origin, but possibly it's a Northern Mantis variety). So what he wants is a voluntary push-hands range so he can use it to try and illegally strike using his power release. Bad ju-ju and knavery, to say the least.

So that was not push-hands ... it was a hokey way of trying to use a push-hands format to inflict damage. And it was also an obvious show that Liao Bai didn't have the nerve to make an official challenge and meet privately for a fight.

Your main question seems to be about the utility of push-hands for practicing "real fighting" scenarios. The answer is that it has limited utility and they do a lot of other practices for real-fighting scenarios. If you run into someone who thinks Taiji fighting is somehow closely related to a push-hands variation, then you know you're talking to an amateur. ;)

Best.

Mike

Mark Jakabcsin
04-29-2008, 10:52 AM
Your main question seems to be about the utility of push-hands for practicing "real fighting" scenarios. The answer is that it has limited utility and they do a lot of other practices for real-fighting scenarios. If you run into someone who thinks Taiji fighting is somehow closely related to a push-hands variation, then you know you're talking to an amateur. ;)


Mike,
Thanks for the interesting response.

Actually my reason for asking the question was not about real fighting scenarios but about changing the elements of a drill to change the experience and potential learning opportunities. While the concepts remain the same, the ability to apply them change (for a time) as the drill is altered from optimum (opponents facing each other) to uncomfortable positions. It all comes down to understanding how the body (yours and your opponents) operates and changing things up a bit can lead to learning....or not. I was just curious if you had seen anything similar. Thanks again.

Take care,

Mark J.

G DiPierro
04-29-2008, 12:22 PM
Actually my reason for asking the question was not about real fighting scenarios but about changing the elements of a drill to change the experience and potential learning opportunities. While the concepts remain the same, the ability to apply them change (for a time) as the drill is altered from optimum (opponents facing each other) to uncomfortable positions. It all comes down to understanding how the body (yours and your opponents) operates and changing things up a bit can lead to learning....or not. I was just curious if you had seen anything similar. Thanks again.There is a freestyle form of push-hands where it is possible to explore other positions and insert spontaneous steps. I have seen this done where the participants were essentially facing the same direction and walking together while remaining connected at the hands. As for uncomfortable positions, within the Chen-style fixed-pattern training is a position called da lu (http://www.martialenergy.com/taijipushhands.jpg) which I would say is fairly uncomfortable (although impossible would be the more accurate term for most people).

I think stairs would be kind of a stretch because it would be too difficult to make it work logistically. But if you had something like a landing or place where there is a step down between two levels of floor you could probably do it. As far as multiple-person push-hands, I suppose you could theoretically do a three-person pattern with one person doing a single-hand pattern simultaneously with 2 partners. I've never seen either of those done, though.

Like Mike explains, push-hands training has a specific purpose, and that is to teach the basic ways to respond to and control attacks in a structured but still somewhat spontaneous format. Although the general pattern of movement is typically fixed, the fact that you don't know exactly how I am going to push means that you have to feel my movement and choose your response based on that, and this trains a level of sensitivity in taiji that I find lacking in the much more rigid training of aikido.

When you break connection, as Liao Bai does in the video posted here, you are no longer doing push hands. The reason CXW had so much difficulty in this video is that he was trying to do push-hands while also being ready for the other person to break connection at any time and try an explosive push to the chest. This is quite difficult to do and doesn't make any sense in the logic of either push-hands or actual fighting.

Dan Austin
04-29-2008, 09:51 PM
You don't know any talented magicians then, I take it. The trick is no substitute for seamless action arrived at by dedicated practice -- like anything else. Somehow, I think you would agree with me on that.


Actually, I do. Been to magician-only lectures at the Magic Castle a number of times. This point is an attempt to distract from the fact that you obviously don't know this stuff. If you can't do it, then your explanations are not useful for gaining skill. Which means they're not useful for much of anything other than filling a page with words. You're still not fooling anybody.

Mike Sigman
04-29-2008, 09:57 PM
The reason CXW had so much difficulty in this video is that he was trying to do push-hands while also being ready for the other person to break connection at any time and try an explosive push to the chest. This is quite difficult to do and doesn't make any sense in the logic of either push-hands or actual fighting.Actually, the way CXW set up classically and it was interesting to watch. But if you cut to the chase, what he did was exactly what "aiki" is, although granted he was doing at against a sudden, large power release done from a very close range. Other than that, his response goal was simply to do "aiki" in response to an attack.

FWIW

Mike

G DiPierro
04-29-2008, 11:49 PM
Actually, the way CXW set up classically and it was interesting to watch. But if you cut to the chase, what he did was exactly what "aiki" is, although granted he was doing at against a sudden, large power release done from a very close range. Other than that, his response goal was simply to do "aiki" in response to an attack.

This might be true, but I'm not sure how it pertains to my post. All I meant in the section you quoted was that it makes no sense to engage in push-hands with someone who is going to try to break the connection and attack you with a sudden push to the chest, unless, of course, you are trying to do the same thing in response. If you are just going to remain passive and stay in the push-hands pattern waiting for the other person to attack at a time of his choosing, I think you are giving away a significant advantage.

How else do you the explain the fact that CXW is pushed off-balance at the 80 second mark, and by a relatively light push at that? I would assume that you don't think that Liao Bai could have pushed him there if they were just doing normal push-hands without the threat of LB suddenly breaking the pattern and attacking him.

Mike Sigman
04-30-2008, 09:00 AM
How else do you the explain the fact that CXW is pushed off-balance at the 80 second mark, and by a relatively light push at that? I would assume that you don't think that Liao Bai could have pushed him there if they were just doing normal push-hands without the threat of LB suddenly breaking the pattern and attacking him.Well, LB got in an off-angled attack at about that time, but it was meaningless and only made CXW step back slightly. BRW, there's longer version of that tape somewhere that shows more pushes, IIRC. This editted version doesn't show Liao Bao getting knocked backwards spectacularly a few times and losing his glasses on the final push.

CXW is not trying to initiate any push to Liao Bai. He is trying to make LB's pushes result in LB getting knocked back. So CXW has to be on a hair trigger edge to be able to do that.

Best.

Mike

G DiPierro
04-30-2008, 09:43 AM
Well, LB got in an off-angled attack at about that time, but it was meaningless and only made CXW step back slightly. BRW, there's longer version of that tape somewhere that shows more pushes, IIRC. This editted version doesn't show Liao Bao getting knocked backwards spectacularly a few times and losing his glasses on the final push.How was this video edited? I don't see any breaks in the continuity (watch the on-screen clock), so unless there was more action either before CXW shows him how to try to push or after the third person stepped up at the end to intervene I don't see what could be missing. The video does contain the final push where LB's glasses are knocked off, but it looks like CXW's hands just come up as he is receiving the push and accidentally hit the glasses. CXW does seem to get in a couple of decent counter-pushes using his hands way, but I would not characterize any of them as spectacular. Although the attack at the 80 second mark might not be particularly explosive, it was a clean push. Liao Bai did not break connection to do it, and it clearly off-balanced CXW enough that he fell out of connection and had to take a step back.

Mike Sigman
04-30-2008, 10:10 AM
How was this video edited? I don't see any breaks in the continuity (watch the on-screen clock), so unless there was more action either before CXW shows him how to try to push or after the third person stepped up at the end to intervene I don't see what could be missing. The video does contain the final push where LB's glasses are knocked off, but it looks like CXW's hands just come up as he is receiving the push and accidentally hit the glasses. CXW does seem to get in a couple of decent counter-pushes using his hands way, but I would not characterize any of them as spectacular. Although the attack at the 80 second mark might not be particularly explosive, it was a clean push. Liao Bai did not break connection to do it, and it clearly off-balanced CXW enough that he fell out of connection and had to take a step back.For some reason when I was playing it this morning, the vid stopped early, so I thought it was editted (truncated). At the 80 second mark (1:20) there is a slight but meaningless off-angle attack that also leaves LB with no power.

Incidentally, I hope you don't think the rule is to never be moved, BTW. It's a finer point than that. You want to retain your position in order to respond, but if an opponent gets a firm push/hit in you are supposed to "hop like a sparrow" rather than just absorbing the hit/push. If you watch a lot of Honk Kong, Fujian, etc., push-hands matchs, those guys way over-do the hopping (seems like if their teacher looks at them hard, they hop). But a move back is preferable to just standing there like a stone.

I frankly had a little trouble getting much in the way of strong feelings about this video because it doesn't show much of anything. Obviously, with the occasional smiles and the fact of wearing street clothes and CXW not initiating any attacks, it's not meant to be very serious in terms of anything.

FWIW

Mike

G DiPierro
04-30-2008, 11:05 AM
For some reason when I was playing it this morning, the vid stopped early, so I thought it was editted (truncated). At the 80 second mark (1:20) there is a slight but meaningless off-angle attack that also leaves LB with no power. It looks to me like this is because he is afraid to commit, and I think the reason for this is that on a couple of his earlier pushes CXW did a powerful counter-push by raising his hands and catching LB with the rebound. After that LB seemed more conservative and reluctant to go in too far, even to the point of sometimes trying to jump back himself after pushing to anticipate the response and avoid the counter-push. On that particular push, though, his position was good enough that CXW couldn't counter, and if he had committed to it more fully rather than jumping back I think it would have been much more powerful.

Incidentally, I hope you don't think the rule is to never be moved, BTW. It's a finer point than that. You want to retain your position in order to respond, but if an opponent gets a firm push/hit in you are supposed to "hop like a sparrow" rather than just absorbing the hit/push. If you watch a lot of Honk Kong, Fujian, etc., push-hands matchs, those guys way over-do the hopping (seems like if their teacher looks at them hard, they hop). But a move back is preferable to just standing there like a stone.I don't see any problem with CXW taking a step back on the harder pushes, and it seems to me that he more or less kept his balance well enough on every push except that one.
I frankly had a little trouble getting much in the way of strong feelings about this video because it doesn't show much of anything. Obviously, with the occasional smiles and the fact of wearing street clothes and CXW not initiating any attacks, it's not meant to be very serious in terms of anything.I'd agree with that. It's fun to look at just because it's so rare to see someone of his level out of his comfort zone and to have that recorded on video, but it's obvious that he's letting the other try whatever he wants without responding as he normally would.

aikispike
04-30-2008, 12:30 PM
Folks,

Here is a tape of Chen Xiaowang. I wonder how much of this "you" want to learn:



Actually, I found this video of Chen Xiaowang very interesting. the short sleeves guy seemed quite intent in knocking over the guy I believe is Chen. He was being attacking with some intent and deflected those attacks with, what looked like, ease. I actually felt a certain amount of excited tension watching the exchange -- kind of like how I feel watching Takeno Sensei doing aikido. It left me interested in learning what they were doing.

On the other hand, the videos posted by m0chamonkey make me a bit embarrassed for the star - who I believe is you. The strikes are slow and obvious. Sure you have to train like that when you are a beginner and learning the movements, but I don't see any real strikes in anything you posted. Don't you have any uke who can attack? What I have seen in about 15 of the 50 videos on Youtube is, to me, fairly basic. If you are good, I recommend you post something that shows it. The video of the knife attack on the trees was not bad though.

Granted I know nothing about what you all are doing or talking about, but you've got Yoshinkan in the subject so I figure it's fair game since I do know something about that.

Spike

Erick Mead
04-30-2008, 04:50 PM
... This point is an attempt to distract from the fact that you obviously don't know this stuff. If you can't do it, then your explanations are not useful for gaining skill. Which means they're not useful for much of anything other than filling a page with words. You're still not fooling anybody.Who am I trying to fool, exactly? You plainly don't get me, but seem compelled to make judgments about me. Why, exactly? What does that accomplish? It was a rhetorical point that mere recognition of the "trick" in any skill does not replace needed practice to increase perception and command of the hidden reality that makes it a "trick" until it is perceived. What is a "trick," after all, but something real that one person perceives and that another person does not?

We do not address what we perceive in remotely the same terms. Therefore, you do not know how to judge me according to your terms. Therefore, you dismiss my observations as unreal or a "trick," because I do not fit your way of framing your perception, or your standard of judgment.

By your standard of judgment I should shut up unless I have touched you, and since I haven't touched you or anyone you would vouch, then I must not know what you are talking about. But if that were true, and since you haven't touched me, then plainly you could not know what I am talking about. But since you make the judgment lacking any personal physical contact basis with me -- you yourself say that makes my judgment tenuous and invalid. Your judgment of me is thus equally tenuous and invalid -- by your standard. So what, then, is your point?

Dan Austin
04-30-2008, 09:55 PM
Who am I trying to fool, exactly?


You're trying to fool the board into believing that your endless analyses and claims that "it's helping you" mean that you know anything substantive about the skills Dan and Mike possess which you obviously don't. No amount of pedantic circumlocution will cover that, but no doubt you'll keep on grinding away at it.

Erick Mead
05-01-2008, 01:53 PM
You're trying to fool the board into believing that your endless analyses and claims that "it's helping you" mean that you know anything substantive about the skills Dan and Mike possess which you obviously don't. No amount of pedantic circumlocution will cover that, but no doubt you'll keep on grinding away at it.I will not respond in kind. I find it interesting how some respond when their own perspective is not reinforced. As I would, like others, laughably lack any personal knowledge of the people so presumptively judged, I do not intend to be the judge of anyone else's "substantive skills" one way or the other through this medium. There is useful discussion of physics and biomechanics to be had in regard to the principles and skills involved in effective aiki in whatever nominal art it occurs. I intend to have that discussion with anyone who is interested, and if you deem it to be of no interest or value to you -- then pay no attention to it.

I am not here to have my thoughts reinforced, but challenged, questioned and examined. Whether opposed me or cooperated with I learn something useful in the engagement -- which is what I am here for.

What are you here for?

DH
05-01-2008, 02:43 PM
I am not here to have my thoughts reinforced, but challenged, questioned and examined. Whether opposed me or cooperated with I learn something useful in the engagement -- which is what I am here for.

What are you here for?

Hi Eric
You maintain and steadfastly enter into threads about these skills wherever they pop up. This thread is a case in point. Have you done these arts? You donlt seem to describe or contribute anything to the discussion that we recognize as having value. I have honestly read most everything you have written. Your descriptions make absolutely no sense whatsoever regarding what I do. Not that there's anything wrong with that. You are respectful and even handed, and for the most part a gentleman when you debate. You just don't have clue what you’re talking about when it comes to these skills. This is obvious, first by the written word and I suspect not by physical skill either. Anyone with these skills by any degree will stand out and known in any jujutsu type venue. They will feel unusual and not be able to be handled.
Since you want to participate in these discussions why not participate in a venue anywhere where Rob, Mike, Ark, or I are present. Barring that anyone who has trained with us. Wait, I think Howard has a school down your way maybe you can go try your ideas on Howard. I'd take his review of you.
Why not Eric?
At some point there is something driving you to speak with those who don't want to talk with you and challenge your ideas. Now you say you like the challenge. Does that mean you like a written debate as long as it doesn't involve vetting?
What's that motivation about?
Wouldn't it carry over to wanting to have a physical discussion to compare notes? No waza, or art stuff just testing of theories in a non confrontational good time...then, dinner and drinks..
Come on bud. Have your "ideas" meet the real world and be challenged for their veracity. I mean we're not talking philosophy, we're talking physical skills. Your "ideas" are as valid as your ability to manifest them. Come on out some where- or let some guys come in and play. Most everyone I have read stated they learned quite a bit had allot of fun in the process.

Howard Popkin
05-01-2008, 03:33 PM
HHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYY,

How did I get dragged into this ?

I'm a simple fisherman, who apparently likes Newcastle Brown Ale :)

Howard

Erick Mead
05-01-2008, 04:03 PM
Since you want to participate in these discussions why not participate in a venue ...Why not Eric?
Come on out some where- or let some guys come in and play. Most everyone I have read stated they learned quite a bit had allot of fun in the process.No doubt. It is quite simple, really. One, you are the ones who demand "vetting", not me, and ideas rise or fall on their merits, not mine. Two, I've got time to train, raise kids, build houses, read, think and discuss these and other things as a relief from the closer thinking required of me for litigation, and still pay for it all with the practice of law. Vacation is not on the short list, especially not since coming to see you or them would cost me far more in my hourly rate than I would willingly wager for the privilege.

Any competitive desire is not what I train for and even this soft version of yaburi has no interest or use for me. Without the satisfaction you and others apparently desire to say you have vetted me, you are left with the ideas to deal with, or not, as you please. Since the ideas themselves are the reason I am here, and engaging in physical practice in this venue is impossible, that is just the way it ought to be.

I will not allow myself to be the issue, positively or negatively. If you were merely satisfied that I met your test you would disregard the ideas as being merely your own in different language, or if not satisfied you would simply disregard the ideas as from an unworthy source. Problem is, they are not my ideas. I am not the source, I am merely the reporter who gives you some facts that I uncover in this context, and reasonable conclusions drawn from them informed by my observations and experience. You are free to doubt the latter but then you need to substitute other conclusions based on differing experience to rebut or qualify mine. -- An argument isn't just saying, "No. it isn't"

-- Yes, it is.

-- No, it isn't

... Your "ideas" are as valid as your ability to manifest them. ... and you are still not dealing with them, which is your prerogative. That old non-sequitur does not fly. Were the pocket-protector guys with the horn-rim glasses that got the astronauts to the moon (and back again, more critically) clueless because they did not actually go there? Jim Lovell didn't think so. Do you doubt that we went to the moon because you haven't touched moondust? I just don't feel any real need for you or anyone to punch my moon-ticket. Why does that seem bother you so much that you have to keep asking?
I mean we're not talking philosophy, we're talking physical skills. The name for physics used to be "natural philosophy." Do you really think that a better understanding of the physics does not help to improve or even to innovate physical skills?

Kevin Leavitt
05-01-2008, 04:13 PM
Erick wrote:

Vacation is not on the short list, especially not since coming to see you or them would cost me far more in my hourly rate than I would willingly wager for the privilege.

With to date 1254 post with an assumed average of 5 minutes per post that would add up to 6,270 minutes of posting time. (that is not including the time reading the thread, you probably read fast though).

Anyway, if you bill as a lawyer at $200 per hour that (I am not sure what a good lawyer would make per hour, but that seems reasonable to me!) that would add up to $20,900 in time spent on aikiweb.

At $1000.00 for a round trip ticket, and a weekend off, it seems like you could take your whole family to a cool place, spend a few hours training, have a decent family weekend...and still come out better than $20,900....way better I would think.

I am not a very smart guy...and yes I am trolling a little bit.....

But I thought it was interesting that your time is so valuable that it would not be worth the risk, yet it is worth spending "man hours" having intellectual debates on aikiweb.

Sorry Erick, couldn't resist.

MM
05-01-2008, 04:43 PM
HHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYY,

How did I get dragged into this ?

I'm a simple fisherman, who apparently likes Newcastle Brown Ale :)

Howard

You must have hooked onto something big, then. :D

DH
05-01-2008, 04:53 PM
No problem
To clarify, I'm not making it about you -its only about your theories and ideas. And I mean every comment to be non-adversarial in nature. You made the discussion about your ideas every time you brought those ideas into the discussion. As has been pointed out to you-you spend an incredible amount of time writing out ideas and theories that have been unilaterally rejected by all parties concerned with the topic. Yet you continue to write to audience that rejects you now out of hand. It was for that reason that I thought you'd be interested to have-this is important- your IDEAS and theories vetted. It is the only logical next step. Without it, the ideas you present have been dismissed, the theories dismissed, so your massive writing is reduced to a masterbatury exercise in the presence of those not listening.
I was trying to be helpful. If I arrive in Florida would you welcome me to compare notes. It would only be for day in a family vacation but I think, scratch that... I am convinced, it will be the best new starting point in your life. We can even talk in P.M. and no one will know I came and went.
What do you think

gdandscompserv
05-01-2008, 06:01 PM
I was trying to be helpful. If I arrive in Florida would you welcome me to compare notes. It would only be for day in a family vacation but I think, scratch that... I am convinced, it will be the best new starting point in your life. We can even talk in P.M. and no one will know I came and went.
What do you think
I'm hurt Dan. You'll go to Florida but you won't come to California. We have sunshine too. ;)

Mark Jakabcsin
05-01-2008, 06:31 PM
It would only be for day in a family vacation but I think, scratch that... I am convinced, it will be the best new starting point in your life. We can even talk in P.M. and no one will know I came and went.
What do you think

Heck, I'll put a bid in for some of that action. How does camping on a secluded 6 acre lot with a 1/2 mile of shore line on a private, limited acess 300 acre lake sound? Canoeing, kayaking, sailing (soon), moutain biking and as much wood as you can chop. The really good fishermen tell me the fishing is great and one of the best kept secrets in SC. Personally I haven't had much success but then I grew up on small stream trout fishing.

Oh and the best part is some quality time with ME. :)

What do you think?

Mark J.

Howard Popkin
05-01-2008, 08:07 PM
Oh sure,

I didn't get the fishing invite.

What's up with that ???????????

:)

DH
05-01-2008, 08:27 PM
Oh sure,

I didn't get the fishing invite.

What's up with that ???????????

:)
Hey
You stayed in the art.
I'm the prodigal son:cool:
Leave a decrepid, dodering old man, a little something. I'm fragile.
Kill the fatted calf!!
Kill a fish.
It's all fresh meat to me

Mark Jakabcsin
05-01-2008, 08:42 PM
Oh sure,

I didn't get the fishing invite.

What's up with that ???????????

:)

Oh not true Howie, not true. I seem to recall you picking your nose up at 'small' fresh water fish. Something about you want to catch the fish that EATS a 5lb bass.

Howard Popkin
05-01-2008, 08:46 PM
Mark,

You got me :)

But I would bring light tackle :)

Be well,

Howard

Howard Popkin
05-01-2008, 08:47 PM
Dan,

I will let you know when we have a good tuna trip. Its no joke :)

Take care,

Howard

Erick Mead
05-01-2008, 10:00 PM
No problem
To clarify, I'm not making it about you -its only about your theories and ideas. And I mean every comment to be non-adversarial in nature. You made the discussion about your ideas every time you brought those ideas into the discussion. For what it is worth, I chimed in to this one to forestall some definitely adversarial noises and to agree, from a non-partisan position, with Mike that what I saw Joseph doing and what I have seen him doing are not the same things. It is what it is, and was plainly not meant to be adversarial in that sense, quite the contrary.
... writing out ideas and theories that have been unilaterally rejected by all parties concerned with the topic. Yet you continue to write to audience that rejects you now out of hand. Yeah, why is that? Perhaps because I believe that an adversarial process (in the formal sense) is useful and thus, why would I engage people who might already agree with me?

... the ideas you present have been dismissed, the theories dismissed, ... not listening. By you maybe. Lessee, I hadn't looked until you brought it up, but the count seems to be 7997 views, one post 6th in overall rank of views and nearly 2500 views on that post alone, so -- maybe not. But I don't want validation, sound facts validate me all that I need.
I was trying to be helpful. I genuinely believe that. I genuinely mean to be the same.

If I arrive in Florida would you welcome me to compare notes. ...
What do you thinkI've never turned an honest soul from the door yet. And we have the whitest beaches in the world -- as long as you dodge the odd hurricane. I'll revert to Moriyama Sensei's rules and say "bring beer" for afters.

Dan Austin
05-01-2008, 11:03 PM
if you deem it to be of no interest or value to you -- then pay no attention to it.

Done and done.


I am not here to have my thoughts reinforced, but challenged, questioned and examined. Whether opposed me or cooperated with I learn something useful in the engagement -- which is what I am here for.

What are you here for?

I learn quite a bit. Also for sport and as a general public service, I like to call people on their ego and related nonsense. There's far too much of it in the martial arts.

Dan Austin
05-02-2008, 11:24 PM
I've never turned an honest soul from the door yet. And we have the whitest beaches in the world -- as long as you dodge the odd hurricane. I'll revert to Moriyama Sensei's rules and say "bring beer" for afters.

I don't believe for a minute that that visit will happen. However, if you can describe the physics of what Dan does differently such that it aids anyone's practice or understanding even a little, I'll be among the first to sing your praises.

DH
05-03-2008, 12:30 AM
Hi Dan
One stipulation. Once Eric can DO...what I do, I'll listen. Not until then. I've had any manner of men-who can't do what I am doing try and tell me WHAT I was doing. This has included three structural engineers-one award winning, as well as DR and Chinese internal martial artists who couldn't do any thing, but had reams of information on what TO do. Things that they were either partially or completely inept at doing themselves.
So this really isn't anything new.
It's why I say "Your understanding is in your hands. Not your art. Not your teachers reputation. You are responsible for you. On that day you either can do, or you cannot. No waza, not technique, lets see your level of power and understanding.'
Its when you account for your years of training.
Most men fail. I've seen senior men well up in tears and get emotional once they realized...after all this time...they had missed it.
But hey, The good news is its teachable and with hard work people can change their bodies and use the mind/body connection. It isn't like learning an art where you can fail to get it or have it hidden from you.,Train it and you will get it.

Mike Sigman
05-03-2008, 09:32 AM
One stipulation. Once Eric can DO...what I do, I'll listen. Not until then. I've had any manner of men-who can't do what I am doing .....I'm not sure all the I, I, I, I is necessary. If someone shows by their conversation or deeds that they have a reasonable foothold into these skills, they're worth listening to. In fact, even on this forum there have been instances of people who didn't know each other falling easily into generic conversations about the ki/kokyu skills. What people can do in comparison to others' skills is a secondary point. BTW, this happens in other forums, too, not just AW.

To date, it's been fairly obvious that Erick simply isn't on board yet and the topic is simply worn out.

My question would be more or less along these lines: As Dan Austin points out, the incidence of ego-centrics is pretty high in the martial-arts. There are some pretty good examples in this very thread, if you look at some of the claims and breeding-displays. But let's say there are two or three guys who claim all sorts of credentials and yet they don't have a real entre' into understanding the basis and logic of the ki/kokyu skills. My question is.... why would anyone show them? This goes to the whole idea of "secrets".

As an aside, I'm personally for a certain level of basics being open to the public, but beyond that there are other issues that have to do with how hard someone works, their personal ethics, and so on.

If someone is a proven ego-centric who appears to be doing a lot of martial arts for the status, the students, the recognition, or some other form of self-aggrandizement, who is really served by showing them even a little bit of the doorway, ahead of more deserving people, into these things? Given how long it takes to get any good at these skills and given how probability indicates that some teachers are really more into themselves than into their students, what public service is performed by giving some of these people an entre? It's a question worth thinking about. Some people take a little bit of knowledge and parlay it into a lot of self-absorption... and as Dan Austin notes, we don't need a lot more of that.

I'd probably happily meet with Dan Austin and a number of others that I see making logical, ego-free posts, but there are others that I think would take whatever little I can show them and they'd parlay it into more ego and empire. So I'd be reluctant to get involved.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

gdandscompserv
05-03-2008, 10:19 AM
If someone is a proven ego-centric who appears to be doing a lot of martial arts for the status, the students, the recognition, or some other form of self-aggrandizement, who is really served by showing them even a little bit of the doorway, ahead of more deserving people, into these things? Given how long it takes to get any good at these skills and given how probability indicates that some teachers are really more into themselves than into their students, what public service is performed by giving some of these people an entre? It's a question worth thinking about. Some people take a little bit of knowledge and parlay it into a lot of self-absorption... and as Dan Austin notes, we don't need a lot more of that.

I wonder if O-sensei was this way with prospective students? Did he turn away many? Did he deem some worthy of instruction and others not? I don't remember much about him turning people away.
I have always felt that those with the real goods are eager to teach it. Those with the egos will simply not learn it. No need to attempt to discern up front. Besides, every once in a while, one of those with a big ego will humble himself and want to learn. You can share allot, you can share a little, or you don't have to share at all. It's completely up to you. I know I have learned allot from your postings. I have read some of your articles and found them very informative so you have obviously shared. If you were nearby I would try to learn from you. But it would be your choice whether or not to teach me. It may be your loss, or it may be mine. It's hard to tell. There are so many paths.

Mike Sigman
05-03-2008, 10:34 AM
I wonder if O-sensei was this way with prospective students? Did he turn away many? Did he deem some worthy of instruction and others not? I don't remember much about him turning people away.To use a classic case to make my point..... did Tohei learn his ki/kokyu skills from O-Sensei's openess or did he have to go somewhere else to learn the skills?

I visited a school in San Francisco one night that taught Yiquan. It took only a few glances to understand that the teacher had some bona fide skills (of whatever level; that's not germane to the story). He had a group of students, but to my eye none of these people had basic jin/kokyu/qi skills. Yet after the class, the teacher proudly introduced some of these people as having studied with him for twenty-years and thereabouts. Going back to your mention of O-Sensei.... what would be your impression of a teacher that kept students in a school but who didn't really show them everything? You see the point, I'm sure. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

gdandscompserv
05-03-2008, 11:16 AM
To use a classic case to make my point..... did Tohei learn his ki/kokyu skills from O-Sensei's openess or did he have to go somewhere else to learn the skills?

I visited a school in San Francisco one night that taught Yiquan. It took only a few glances to understand that the teacher had some bona fide skills (of whatever level; that's not germane to the story). He had a group of students, but to my eye none of these people had basic jin/kokyu/qi skills. Yet after the class, the teacher proudly introduced some of these people as having studied with him for twenty-years and thereabouts. Going back to your mention of O-Sensei.... what would be your impression of a teacher that kept students in a school but who didn't really show them everything? You see the point, I'm sure. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Of course I see the point. You are suggesting that O-sensei 'held out,' for whatever reason. I don't know. But it is my feeling that knowledge has limited value if it is not shared. If a teacher deems one not worthy of his knowledge, that student may go elsewhere. The teacher may have held his progress back or he may have propelled it. Iwao Yamaguchi sensei was not my first MA instructor, but he certainly was my best. It is alway best to find the appropriate match for ones own training. Sometimes it is best to train 'solo' as well. Mike, you obviously have unusual knowledge and skills. It is completely up to you whether to share it or not. I prefer that you do.
:D

Mike Sigman
05-03-2008, 12:35 PM
Of course I see the point. You are suggesting that O-sensei 'held out,' for whatever reason. I don't know. But it is my feeling that knowledge has limited value if it is not shared. Depends on who you share it with. For instance, if some Asian grand-poobah teaches his students all he knows, what is poobah's son going to do for a living? And besides, everyone has an idea of who is "worthy" in terms of personal character, demeanor, integrity, humility, athleticism, and so on.... it's only logical to have those factors affect who you're going to be open and friendly with. If a teacher deems one not worthy of his knowledge, that student may go elsewhere. I think the term "worthy" is too vague. Let's face it, there are criteria for who gets taught what and some of those criteria revolve around practical details. For instance, if I think someone has a totally disorganized life, they're shallow thinkers, or etc., any of many factors that simply mean there's almost no probability they can think their way through these things, then I know it would be a waste of time spent to teach them. I.e., it's better to pick and choose so that there's a better chance that your time won't be wasted.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not speaking from any lofty heights of skills and excellence... I'm just talking from experience. This stuff is a lot more complex and harder to train/learn than any of us thought. Most of us thought this "ki" stuff was osmotic. It's not. It takes a mind that is always thinking and looking. Heck, it takes a certain amount of ego (as do most things, if people really want to excel)... but not too much ego. And so on. It's an iffy thing and there are no hard and fast rules; just general approaches.

FWIW

Mike

Dan Austin
05-04-2008, 12:06 PM
Hi Dan
One stipulation. Once Eric can DO...what I do, I'll listen. Not until then. I've had any manner of men-who can't do what I am doing try and tell me WHAT I was doing. This has included three structural engineers-one award winning, as well as DR and Chinese internal martial artists who couldn't do any thing, but had reams of information on what TO do. Things that they were either partially or completely inept at doing themselves.
So this really isn't anything new.

Hi Dan,

Yeah that's about what I figured. Trust me I'm not holding my breath. ;)

But hey, The good news is its teachable and with hard work people can change their bodies and use the mind/body connection. It isn't like learning an art where you can fail to get it or have it hidden from you.,Train it and you will get it.


Sounds good, but the opportunities to really train these things seem few and far between. How much hands-on does it require with basic solo exercise #1 before one could make solo progress?

DH
05-04-2008, 03:07 PM
Oh gosh. That's all over the map, Dan.
Everyone is different. you have each persons talent, brains, and then how much they actually train. I pay more attention to me than to them. I don't teach. I just give them a place to train and work on their own shit. They own their own progress, I may offer to help where they aren't getting something or other, but make no mistake I have no art I am representing or vested interest in growing. They're on their own. If I ever did decide to teach I would change things completely. In the mean time I just crack jokes and have fun while working on my own shit, with others along for the ride. I can't tell you how many times over the years I would get up in front of a room full of people and say "We're going to work on some stuff tonight that I can't do. Don't ask me to help, I can't do it either." Newer folks would look at each other an scratch their heads. Its remains a standing joke here that when someone asks me how to do something I say "I dunno I can't do it either."
Teaching was never on my top priority list, wasn't even in my radar. Maybe its a coincidence but it appears that people who train here seem to get something or other after a year, with a real jump happening about three or four years in. I got a 26 yr old who goes out to MMA schools now and then and who handles visitors with ease. But maybe that's just the country air.

Dan Austin
05-04-2008, 10:40 PM
Oh gosh. That's all over the map, Dan.
Everyone is different. you have each persons talent, brains, and then how much they actually train. I pay more attention to me than to them. I don't teach. I just give them a place to train and work on their own shit. They own their own progress, I may offer to help where they aren't getting something or other, but make no mistake I have no art I am representing or vested interest in growing. They're on their own. If I ever did decide to teach I would change things completely. In the mean time I just crack jokes and have fun while working on my own shit, with others along for the ride. I can't tell you how many times over the years I would get up in front of a room full of people and say "We're going to work on some stuff tonight that I can't do. Don't ask me to help, I can't do it either." Newer folks would look at each other an scratch their heads. Its remains a standing joke here that when someone asks me how to do something I say "I dunno I can't do it either."
Teaching was never on my top priority list, wasn't even in my radar. Maybe its a coincidence but it appears that people who train here seem to get something or other after a year, with a real jump happening about three or four years in. I got a 26 yr old who goes out to MMA schools now and then and who handles visitors with ease. But maybe that's just the country air.

Dan,

Fair enough, but where did you learn this stuff? My point is that unless you happen to have someone nearby you can visit with fairly frequently, it sounds like it would be pretty hard to get far. There don't seem to be a lot of guys running around teaching this stuff, at least not openly. I guess my question is, since most of the training is solo, how many times per year minimum would it be necessary to visit someone who knows what he's doing such that your solo practice could be in the right ballpark? I realize everyone is different, but assuming reasonable talent and coordination.

MM
05-05-2008, 09:01 AM
I can't tell you how many times over the years I would get up in front of a room full of people and say "We're going to work on some stuff tonight that I can't do. Don't ask me to help, I can't do it either."


LOL! That's a lot like what I said after coming back from training with you. "Hey, we're going to work on some stuff that I can't do, but it's really amazing when you can do it." I'm really thankful that I had some people training with me who went along with no proof at all that what I was explaining could be done. They trained with me on just what I was telling them.


Maybe its a coincidence but it appears that people who train here seem to get something or other after a year, with a real jump happening about three or four years in.

Hmm ... yeah, I think I made a jump about a year into things. Least to me it seems like a small jump. Can't wait for the next few to see how things progress. :)