Ultimate fights expand to include kids

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[Jennifer Yabut]

Is anyone else remotely disturbed about this new trend: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080327/ap_on_re_us/ultimate_fighting_kids;_ylt=AizmjMr_I0C4LZU5bwlu0tdH2ocA

I don't really care for MMA or the UFC, because of the general "brawler" mentality they invoke. I'm also concerned that this hard mat training would *not* be very good for a growing child.

[Buck]

Smells of a child abuse case.

Parents have been charged with child abuse for less.

Creepy is the way the father is living through his kids. Where is the Mother? Is she in the stands eating popcorn?

I can't believe people really think MMA (jujitsu techniques) isn't harmful to a child's joints. That Orand, what a smart guy by saying it's the only real way kids can defend themselves. What a single minded businessmen looking to make a buck anyway he can. He knows that kids bring in the money.

I think any parent who lets their pre-teens do MMA- buying into Orand's sales pitch- definately have been skipped by evolution.

[wideawakedreamer]

I dunno... I took judo when I was nine and I grappled with other kids and nobody complained. I've watched kiddie taekwondo tournaments and nobody complains about those. How is this any different? They're wearing gloves, they have the protective gear, there's a referee, safety rules, etc.

As for the hard mat training not being very good for a growing child - maybe. I don't know whether to agree or disagree because I'm no doctor. But then again, what about all those other martial arts like the ones I mentioned? What about wrestling and boxing? And what about all other kinds of physical sports like soccer and basketball? What is it specifically about MMA training that makes it bad for children?

[wideawakedreamer]

So when is it safe to learn jujitsu techniques? How old do you have to be? I'm asking out of curiosity because I've never taken up jujitsu.



I can't believe people really think MMA (jujitsu techniques) isn't harmful to a child's joints.

[wideawakedreamer]

Yeah, I cringed when I read that part.

That Orand, what a smart guy by saying it's the only real way kids can defend themselves. What a single minded businessmen looking to make a buck anyway he can. He knows that kids bring in the money.


btw, how is this child abuse? Don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand. What makes something like this (training and competing in a martial sport) child abuse?

[Buck]

When I talked to a pediatrician some years back about my kids doing judo, which included Aikido, and jujutsu btw, he recommended kids wait until they are 20 years ideally. He said that when most males stop growing at around that age.Their joints are fully formed and durable to take the stress and resist injury better. He mentioned the new Olympic age rule for girls to compete in Women Gymnastic because of the mental stress what hurting them, the toll it took physically in injuries resulted in a older competing age. He said, why do I want my kids to put their bodies at an added risk at this young age, what is the rush? Do you really want to see me more often, than you do now?

All doctor don't share the same opinion. I am passing on what mine said. I think the best advice is to talk to an Othopedic specialist, as well as other speicalist to get a full education on the subject. Then decide for yourself. After all your kids welfare dependents on you the parent.

[Buck]

Yeah, I cringed when I read that part.

btw, how is this child abuse? Don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand. What makes something like this (training and competing in a martial sport) child abuse?

I understand, it is a good question. Here in the US we have made a shift toward how we should and shouldn't treat our children. In the past we where not very kind, we were cruel to our children. When my parents and grandparents where kids it was a continued Victorian mentally that didn't see kids to have much worth, or any rights. You can search our history of child labor laws to get a big picture. The greatest change has happened in the last 10 years on how we treat kids. For example, my grandparents got beatings with a tree branch until they got welts, among other torturous punishments for just speaking to an adult at the wrong time. My parents got spanked with a belt or stick for back-talking an adult. If caught cussing they got their mouths washed out with bar soap and other similar unpleasant experiences. I got spanking from my parents open hand a punishment or sent to my room. My kids got time out. That example represents the change in society over the years. We are kinder now to our kids then we have been in the past. We recognized that kids are human, they have human rights and should be honored.

Putting kids in MMA can be seen as abuse. They pit kids against each other to hurt each other in a way that is brutal and not necessary.

[Kevin Leavitt]

My 8 year old son trains in Judo and with me in BJJ and grappling from time to time.

You must look at the rules, which I will have to dig up, they are typically constrained to things that are age appropriate.

Under competent instruction and supervision it is not bad.

As emotional as it may seem to have kids doing MMA, I don't think it is any more harsh than parents that push their kids into competitive Gymnastics, Horseback Riding, Ice Skating or many other sports. I personally cringe watching young girls do some of the things they are made to do with their bodies in Gymnastics. I'd submit that it is every bit as hard on the body and mind as MMA.

MMA becomes very emotional because of the percieved violence that it seems to be directly related to.

parents that object have no issue with their kids watching violence on TV, taking "Soft" violent arts like Karate, TKD, and even aikido. At least in MMA they are being honest about it!

Anyway....just a different perspective.

[Bronson]

When I talked to a pediatrician some years back about my kids doing judo, which included Aikido, and jujutsu btw, he recommended kids wait until they are 20 years ideally. He said that when most males stop growing at around that age.Their joints are fully formed and durable to take the stress and resist injury better. He mentioned the new Olympic age rule for girls to compete in Women Gymnastic because of the mental stress what hurting them, the toll it took physically in injuries resulted in a older competing age. He said, why do I want my kids to put their bodies at an added risk at this young age, what is the rush? Do you really want to see me more often, than you do now?

All doctor don't share the same opinion. I am passing on what mine said. I think the best advice is to talk to an Othopedic specialist, as well as other speicalist to get a full education on the subject. Then decide for yourself. After all your kids welfare dependents on you the parent.

If we all followed this advice our children would be kept from doing anything physical in their early developmental stages and would end up with physical, sensory integration, and mental development delays. Children have developing proprioception and vestibular systems that need to be challenged. Not to mention muscular development and movement patterns that need to be formed and integrated. This idea that keeping children stagnant keeps them safe is ridiculous. Kids NEED to get out and move and they need to move in a wide variety of ways that take full advantage of their available ranges of motion.

Thousands of kids play football, baseball, soccer, hockey and a whole host of other sports with no adverse effects. Yes there are injuries but with proper instruction, age specific rules, and competent coaching and refereeing most kids should be able to participate in sports and expect a pretty reasonable level of safety. I see the bigger problem being immature, over competitive parents who push their children beyond what is safe or reasonable.

Just my take.

Bronson

[RonRagusa]

Two of the kids interviewed in the video:

"... get in there and get it over with and beat up some kid."

and

"I can punch people and not get in trouble."

Pretty much speaks for itself.

[Jennifer Yabut]

I'm also concerned about the "hard training" MMA and "ultimate fighting" entails. Most "striking arts" like Tae Kwon Do don't utilize joint locks. If I recall correctly, Judo doesn't use many joint locks either, right? And don't most (if not all) Aikido dojo have a *minimum* age for children to start training? Not only that, aren't they usually just taught the *basics*, and none of the "harsher" joint locks? I've also heard that joint locks can be harmful to a growing child's body.

However, my main concern can be summed up thusly:

Two of the kids interviewed in the video:

"... get in there and get it over with and beat up some kid."

and

"I can punch people and not get in trouble."

Pretty much speaks for itself.

...and *that* is my biggest problem with children doing "ultimate fighting". I'm all for children learning the martial arts - but only to learn *self-defense*, *self-discipline*, and *self-control*. NOT so they can learn to beat up other kids better.

[d2l]

I kind of disagree with this little kid M.M.A. I find it rather disgusting that people would stand to profit from this. I'm all for little kids learning to defend themselves and even sparring. I guess I just look at it like someone is going to try and capitalize on this in due time.

It is one thing for a grown man or woman to consent to get their faces smashed in, and another for LITTLE kids.

B.T.W., I'm all for corporal punishment with kids. When I was growing up, if I back talked the belt came out before I could shut my mouth. If I didn't like what was for diner, I didn't eat. If I lied, soap was on the menu.

It seems our society has it's priority's backasswards. Whatever you do, don't smack your kid for being bad, and possibly keep him/her out of prison because they will understand that there is consequences to being bad. But it's o.k. to let them brawl as some kind of spectacle? W.T.F.? :confused:

[Josh Reyer]

Wow!!! Those videos were seriously slanted! The WBZ Boston one, especially. No objectivity, and no understanding of mixed martial arts. The AP video was better, but still ridiculous, referring to the sport as "human cock fighting" and referring to it as "bare-knuckle fights."

And the quotes from the kids? Quick soundbites, with no context at all. How often have we joked on these forums about applying nikyo to people, or taking out our frustrations on uke? What were those kids asked? What did they say before, what did they say after? The first kid in particular sounded like it was cut out of a larger sentence.

Despite commentary making it seem like these kids were engaging in "cockfighting", when I watched the video all I saw was children engaging in adult-supervised, low impact wrestling with all the joint-stress of an ikkyo, and heavily-padded sparring, just like you would see in any family karate or tae kwon do dojo. The video, of course, made no attempt to ascertain the grade levels and differences in training depending on age. They just made it seem like 6 year olds jump right in and start the ground and pound.

I'm beginning to think that the "Octagon" was just the wrong idea. It's given people an entirely wrong image. MMA may be paying for that now. Still, no excuse for such a hachet-job of journalism.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I personally find it hypocritical that we put kids in arts like TKD, reframe elbow smashes, axe kicks, and all that stuff to "Kata" and then put them in the ring and pretend that it is something else other than what is being done in the context that these kids are doing.

At least they are being presented with an honest look at what they are doing.

Can parents and kids loose focus about sportsmanship, respect, and what it is really all about? Certainly...it happens in all sports. This one is no different.

It simply has alot of emotional context to it that some people have a hard time with and certainly it gives the media something to sell.

I'd recommend that you go first hand to one of these events and see what is really going on before dismissing it into a category of it's own separate from all the other sports and arts that are seemingly benign, yet offer the same issues.

[Gregory Pinkerton]

I'm going to have to agree with Kevin on this. Kids compete in wrestling, tae kwon do, kendo, judo, jujutsu, and a number of other 'contact' arts. (I belive in Muay Thai that kids tend to start at an early age, but I may be mistaken as I've no experience with that particular art.)

Dangerous, sure, if there's no one supervising.

(Not having seen a children's mma program in person, it's hard for me to judge. However I doubt someone that's teaching it is going to be let the kids injure themselves that much.)

I'd consider horse riding to be a bit more dangerous as a children's hobby/sport to be honest.

I think it would be worthwhile talking to other children's instructors (in and outside of Aikido) on this discussion. (For those out their teaching children Aikido, do you teach them any joint locks? If so how do you make sure they don't injure each other?)

[edtang]

If I recall correctly, Judo doesn't use many joint locks either, right?

I have no idea if they're taught in a children's Judo curriculum, but the joint locks popular in MMA (like arm bars) are all definitely derived from Judo (which Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was derived from).

When I was at Seattle Dojo (the first Judo dojo in the states) trying out a class, there were two girls around the age of 13 giggling as they were practicing collar chokes with an instructor. It's part of the sport, and IMO no different than that aspect of MMA training. Why would it okay in sport Judo but not elsewhere?

[edtang]

As for the "hard training" worries....

Is anyone else remotely disturbed about this new trend: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080327/ap_on_re_us/ultimate_fighting_kids;_ylt=AizmjMr_I0C4LZU5bwlu0tdH2ocA

I don't really care for MMA or the UFC, because of the general "brawler" mentality they invoke. I'm also concerned that this hard mat training would *not* be very good for a growing child.

It's quite obvious you have no first hand experience with any sort of that training.

We do MMA training at my BJJ academy. The BJJ component, as I noted before, is very much derived from Judo (and my academy, as well as the Judo schools around here, either has offered or offers Children's classes). Children's Judo and BJJ is perfectly acceptable, isn't it?

The takedown portion of the class is taught by a wrestling coach. That's wrestling as in elementary/ middle / high school wrestling, which is percieved as very, very common and perfectly acceptable, depending on your school district.

The striking training (kick boxing) is not too dissimiliar to any striking training that involves protected contact (like forms of Karate, TKD, or Muay Thai) that involve younger folks all the time.

It's very hard for me to see why a hybrid curriculum, under proper supervision and with a good teacher, is so bad at all if the separate components are all acceptable, just because it's called "Mixed Marital Arts."

[Buck]

I saw a national TV report on this. I gotta tell ya. It really disturbed me to see those kids fighting in a cage beating on each other. Seeing one 5-6 year old kid do a firemen's carriage and throw the other kid head first to the ground was not pleasant to see. All I thought was broken neck.

The Reporter came on after that and said there are rules to protect kids. Oh my gosh, they missed that one. The rules are by adults and supervised by adults, and poor supervision, poor rules, equals injury for kids. Poor adult supervision and lack of adult concern for the welfare of kids over the sport isn't only in MMA, it's across the board. And I think do we really need more of this?

The Reporter after that said it isn't as bad a football, or wrestling. Then they cut to the older kids fighting, oh I guess the age was about 9 -12 years old where one was on top of another really beating away on the kid on the bottom. Reminded me of a school yard fight when I seen as a kid. It is where the bully is enjoying beating up on the weaker kid, throwing a flurry of punches. I can't help to think what MMA for kids does to them psychologically.

Traditional contact sports are so hard on kids mentally and physically because of the parents, and because of the sports they are designed for adults. We see parents lose it and do horrible things because they are too wound up over their kids and kid sports all of the time.

Kids taking martial arts may not have such screwed up parents, but they do suffer serious injury, and even death from sparring. I don't like sparring or randori for young kids. Kata is all they should be doing untill 18 years olds. I haven't heard a good reason to have kids spar so young.

There is no proof starting young will make you a champion. Sumo has kids starting all the time and not all kids become Champions, and not all Champions started when they were kids.

If a parent feels the need to make their kid a MMA champion, they can have them wrestle (better sport on joints), learn karate (kata), learn judo (at least teaching falling). When an adult, they can incorporate jujutsu skills. Of what I have seen of MMA fighters many learn jujitsu skills within 6 mos of training every day to be effective. The other thing I see is in the UFC they match ground fighters with ground fighters, and stand up fighters with stand up fighters often. Parents grooming and training their kids to fight, the parent has a choice for their kid to be a ground fighter or a stand up fighter. The really don't have to start with MMA training first.

I am not against MMA. MMA is for adults ya know. As it stands now most states don't permit kids fighting in tournaments. Maybe it isn't really something kids should do, or really need to do. More discussion is needed.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Then don't have your kids do it.

I personally would be happy if they would stop showing the news in the restuarants like Applebees which I find highly unsuitable for young kids, but I guess I can take my kids elsewhere if I don't like it.

[Gregory Pinkerton]

Kids taking martial arts may not have such screwed up parents, but they do suffer serious injury, and even death from sparring. I don't like sparring or randori for young kids. Kata is all they should be doing untill 18 years olds. I haven't heard a good reason to have kids spar so young.


This is the first I've heard of death during sparring. Would you please share any articles you have on the subject.

[Buck]

Some years ago, my sister-in-laws kid's dojang had this kid about 17 years old K.O.ed a 15 year old to the head with a hard round house. Supposedly, the 17 year olds foot got up under the poorly worn head gear, and made contact to the 15 year old's head. The 15 year old dropped unconsciously to the floor, and then died latter in the hospital. The 17 year old wasn't supposed to hit the other kid. He was supposed to pull the kick during sparring. My sister-in-law was there. Don't know if it was reported in the local news. Sad matter of events upsets me just writing about it. How tragic.

I remember when my kids where young and the got a head injury the doctor told up us to watch them for 24 hrs. Kids are more susceptible to head injuries that can result in death.

Read this completely http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic929.htm Because I don't have a news paper article of the accident. And because the risk of death that kids face when being pounded in a battery of punches from atop by another kid. And why for me one of several reason I don't recommend or approve of sparring for kids until 18 years old, when asked. Nervous Nelly, yes I am.

[Buck]

Then don't have your kids do it.

I personally would be happy if they would stop showing the news in the restuarants like Applebees which I find highly unsuitable for young kids, but I guess I can take my kids elsewhere if I don't like it.

It is more of an issue of society then a personal one, such as choosing a place to eat. I am not saying your kids can't do MMA. I am saying am with many states that have laws against kids MMA events. Many states have helmet laws. All states don't let kids drive a car under the age of 16 alone on public roads- excludes farm licenses which have limits and not every kid gets one. How disastrous would it be to have 6-14 year olds driving on the freeway. I shutter to think if there was no law for it.

Should I move out of the US to some other country where my kid can drive at 6 -14 years old? Or do I stay in the US and have my kid wait until he is 16 years old, or older to drive? I think it is a good law not to let kids drive until they are old enough to be responsible and able to do it safely.

[dps]

I think the more important aspect of children participating in contact sports where physical injuries are likely is the cumulative effect that many injuries will have on these children as they grow older. At the age of 53 the many injuries I had as a child and young adult are haunting me. The short term enjoyment of these physical activities can turn into long term physical problems.

David

[Kevin Leavitt]

Phil,

Thanks for explaining your position more.

I think there is a difference between this argument and a helmet law designed to protect people.

If your argument is that MMA should not be allowed for kids because it is dangerous, then I say it is illogical because it completely ignores all the other things and sports that are as or more dangerous for kids

I played contact football growing up from the time I was 8 years old. Knowing now what I know about sports medicine (limited) and kinesiology, I would choose to not let my kids play. having an 8 year old wear an oversized heavy helmet that has probably not been properly sized, that his neck and spine cannot support, then crash into another kid of the same condition is absurd I thiink.

We won't ban that though, even mentioning it can make your patriotism be questioned!

(BTW, it appeared that the kids were wearing protective gear in the MMA stuff).

I could come up with more examples.

Anyway, the point is this, I don't think it is so much an issue of genuinely wanting to protect kids as much as it is an emotional or ethical/morality argument.

Helmet laws are good I think, as they do indeed protect people against their own ignorance, and more importantly they prevent society in carrying the cost economically.

However when we enter the realm of emotion, that is legislating morality or ethics...it becomes more complex.

Should we allow cockfighting? No I don't think so.

MMA for kids? I think it depends on how the events are conducted. Certainly there needs to be a great deal of supervision and adequate rules which cover ethics.

However, once we start applying those ethics to MMA, we need to look at all the sports that kids participate in from football, to soccer, to TMAs or sport/contact Karate, Judo, Gymnastics, whatnot.

If we do not apply the same judgement and criteria sans the emotional issues to them...then we are hypocrites.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Oh, I should probably add that I would probably choose to not have my kid participate in this style of MMA (where striking is involved).

I also do not allow him to play with toy guns or approve of roleplaying that involves him harming another human being.

I don't allow him to watch TV much except for shows that are very mild with no violence.

I think there is too much in the world.

These are choices that I make for him at 8 years old.

He does do Judo, and we do grappling based sports, not involving strikes at this time.

We talk about violence, the cause and effects of it and how our actions and words can be important.

I think eventually we will work on striking...when he is ready to mentally and physically deal with it. I have a personal philosophy that 8 year olds are pushed to hard to compete and to grow up too fast.

So, you will see that probably my personal position on the MMA issue is closer to your own.

I am simply pointing out that if the problem is going to be tackled correctly, it should not be directed at MMA specifically as if it presents some new level or horror of unprecedented nature. The same issues it presents have been sugar coated by kata, goal post, and high bars.

If we are genuine about helping make better kids in society, then we should attack the issue at the root..not having our governments establish more legislation that targets specific things (moral legistlation).

[Buck]

Kevin after reading what you said it seems I made a mistake with helmet laws. Maybe wearing seat belts and car/booster seats for kids, and adults would have been better. A safety measure brought about by all the car accidents with deaths and injuries when not using them.

The way you said you treat your child, with the great attention you pay to their safety is because you are trained. But that isn't the norm. What about the parents that don't have a martial arts back ground. The parents who are recklessly and irresponsible parents what their kid to be like the parents favorite UFC fighters live vicariously through. Parents who think it is cool to watch their kid beat the snott out of another 6 year old kid. Don't we have enough of that in other sports?

What is wrong with having kids wait until they are adults to do MMA, and sports you already pointed too?

We have kids wait to do all sorts of things. Let me list a few, drive, to buy booze, to buy adult materials, to shoot own a gun, to get married, to work, etc. all for good reason. Why? Well it is to protect them and to protect them from bad parents. Here is an example of some types, the irresponsible, careless, ignorant knuckle-headed, exploitive, reckless, abusive, idiotic.

It is a parents drive and not the kids drive to do MMA.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Phil wrote:

What is wrong with having kids wait until they are adults to do MMA, and sports you already pointed too?

Nothing as long as we apply the "rules" for the right reasons and that criteria applies to all sports for the same reasons.

AND the reasons are based on sound, founded, and logical basis.

[statisticool]

At least they are being presented with an honest look at what they are doing.


The modern MMA fad started out with UFC and their 'no rules' campaign, as well as Rorian's belief that it was 'as close as you could get to a street fight' and that it would 'finally determine which martial art is best'.
(not exact quotes)

None of those things are honest to begin with.

[Jennifer Yabut]

The way you said you treat your child, with the great attention you pay to their safety is because you are trained. But that isn't the norm. What about the parents that don't have a martial arts back ground. The parents who are recklessly and irresponsible parents what their kid to be like the parents favorite UFC fighters live vicariously through. Parents who think it is cool to watch their kid beat the snott out of another 6 year old kid. Don't we have enough of that in other sports?

Speaking of other sports, weren't there a rash of stories about parents behaving badly during youth soccer games?

And how many parents out there *are* living vicariously through their children's accomplishments - whether on the football field, on the wrestling mat, in the ring, and so on?

And Kevin...absolutely, we should apply the same standards across the board. I also have reservations about pee wee football and wrestling for similar reasons.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Justin,

Your missing the point, it is a relative position to other martial arts in general.

[wideawakedreamer]

When I was in high school, it was the parents who got into fights during inter-school basketball games - their kids just played basketball.

Speaking of other sports, weren't there a rash of stories about parents behaving badly during youth soccer games?

And how many parents out there *are* living vicariously through their children's accomplishments - whether on the football field, on the wrestling mat, in the ring, and so on?

And Kevin...absolutely, we should apply the same standards across the board. I also have reservations about pee wee football and wrestling for similar reasons.

[statisticool]

Justin,

Your missing the point, it is a relative position to other martial arts in general.

I'm not sure if you've read the MMA magazines Kevon, or have familiarity with any MMA related programming, and have compared them to other martial arts. Just take 5 minutes to see how they market, advertise, etc. It is primarily aggression, testosterone, T&A, etc. Contrast that with say a magazine on aikido.

Night and day. :)

[Mark Uttech]

Onegaishimasu. Sigh. Even Systema is beginning a children's program. This is nothing but the "market mentality". They may point to this or that benefit, but entertainment and dollars drive the idea.

In gassho,

Mark

[Kevin Leavitt]

No, Justin... I know absolutely nothing about MMA.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I am betting that systema for kids looks alot like judo for kids, aikido for kids, or gymnastics for kids.

Sure kids programs bring in $$ to the dojo, but I think the kids get something out of it as well. Most kids programs concentrate on gross motor skills, balance, and coordination.

Not so much the development of fine motor skills and internal skills.

The main thing I think is to get kids out of the house and interacting with other kids doing something that is using the body and mind at the same time.

[Keith Larman]

As a parent, a children's aikido instructor and with a wife in the medical field... It is a bit of a minefield.

First of all, I've seen and heard of some horrific injuries kids have suffered doing all sorts of things. Everything from organized sports (football, baseball, basketball) to "pseudo-martial arts" like school wrestling to just the things kids do because they're kids ("let's play tackle football on the street!" -- Hey, I thought it was a great idea at 14 -- the concussion I ended up with later was a bit of an eye-opener (or closer -- ha!)).

Anyway... Our kids program is about teaching kids to move mostly. Lots of things like elbow drops, gentle versions of shihonage and kotegaeshi emphasizing kuzushi rather than "locking up" their joints, etc. Most of the time we want the kids to get their hands up, protect themselves, get off the line, and get safe. But the larger picture is teaching them body awareness, how to move, balance, confidence, interacting in a group with other kids, recognition of authority and structure, keeping calm, not resorting to violence first,... All things most any program for kids will work on regardless of what it is.

But.. Having seen kids that have stayed over the years mature in extremely talented Aikido practitioners I also recognize the deeper value of what they're doing. As they get older, start hitting that adult age and size, then the intensity can go up. And they can quickly ratchet it up themselves because they're already got a core set of ability long fine-tuned. They are much better at the taking away balance, moving, sliding, and slipping through. Because they've had it so firmly ingrained into their bodies that it is easy for them. And their aikido as adults benefits from it greatly.

All that said, sure, we don't do yonkyo's with 7-year-old. But I might introduce it once or twice in a year with my 15 and 16 year olds. I figure it's going to take them a few years to figure the bloody thing out anyway. I let them feel it a few times then let them try to apply it to me. I take the brunt of the punishment, especially when they power through it because they can't seem to find it. Then they do. Loverly... ;)

With respect to other arts, well, I can't really say much. But I can easily see any children's program instilling exactly the wrong ideas, practices and "tone" with their programs. I can easily see someone getting way too aggressive with aikido training in kids doing damage. And I have known people with kids in other arts (other friends of mine) including jujutsu arts with well adjusted kids having a wonderful time. I can only speak as a guy who remembers being a kid -- grappling is fun! Judo as a kid was a blast! So was soccer, football, baseball, ... And I've got a bum knee due to soccer as a kid. But I wouldn't change a thing if I could do it over again myself.

Anyway, I guess my point is that it isn't so much the art, sport or activity that is the issue. It is how it is taught. And how cognizant participants are to safety and the "larger" picture of the development of kids. So I wouldn't use something like this to condemn the art or even the idea of a kid's MMA program. I could see that being just as useful, enriching and worthy as most any other kids program out there. It's all about how it is taught and presented.

Enough rambling for me...

[Keith Larman]

I should also say that we have basic kids classes where the kids start. As they get better (which doesn't always equate with age or time) they may find themselves invited to an advanceds kids class. And they can also start participating in some of the adult classes on a limited basis. So we have a sort of "path" for working with kids that tries to adjust the training accordingly to their age, ability, and particular needs. That includes awareness of their developmental level physically and emotionally. So they're not tossed into the "octogon of jiu waza death" right away. We give them some time first before we do that... ;)

And I should also mention that while I almost destroyed one knee playing soccer as a kid, I screwed up the other one pretty badly playing tennis. As a kid.

Aikido doesn't help things nowadays at the ripe age of 44 -- I certainly feel those old injuries and I've certainly done a lot to aggravate them. But no one would ever question tennis lessons. Or Soccer games.

Context, context, context...

And also... ;) most kids don't stay all that long. They discover ballet, or football, or tae kwon do, BJJ, or chess club, or flower arranging, or water polo, or cricket ("really, where do they have a league playing that in Southern California?"), etc. Kids flutter from one thing to another. A few hang around longer. Some a long, long time. And training needs to be done in accordance with that long term view. There is no rush with a kid as long as you can keep them challenged and interested. And as they develop and can take more, well, you can give them more.

[edtang]

I'm not sure if you've read the MMA magazines Kevon, or have familiarity with any MMA related programming, and have compared them to other martial arts. Just take 5 minutes to see how they market, advertise, etc. It is primarily aggression, testosterone, T&A, etc. Contrast that with say a magazine on aikido.

Night and day. :)

You do realize that the marketing of the events and brands are not the same as the tone of the actual training or the demeanors of many of the athletes, right?

[Buck]

You do realize that the marketing of the events and brands are not the same as the tone of the actual training or the demeanors of many of the athletes, right?

From what I understand it is part and parcel now. Especially, with the popularity of the UFC and amateur adult events as models for the kid events. I wouldn't be surprised if they served beer to the parents, and everything else to emulate the adult venue. They already have the cage.

[statisticool]

You do realize that the marketing of the events and brands are not the same as the tone of the actual training or the demeanors of many of the athletes, right?

Not the same, not causation, but an awful high correlation in MMA's case for sure.

[Kevin Leavitt]

....and your correlation is based on what facts and assumptions?

[chuunen baka]

I'm also concerned about the "hard training" MMA and "ultimate fighting" entails. Most "striking arts" like Tae Kwon Do don't utilize joint locks. If I recall correctly, Judo doesn't use many joint locks either, right? And don't most (if not all) Aikido dojo have a *minimum* age for children to start training? Not only that, aren't they usually just taught the *basics*, and none of the "harsher" joint locks? I've also heard that joint locks can be harmful to a growing child's body.
My jujutsu instructor also teaches juniors and to quote him from another board: locks taught to under 18's should be to position only, not to pain. In other words, move the hand / elbow / shoulder etc to the correct position to apply the lock, which is generally the limit of natural movement, but not to apply the necessary pressure to take it beyond that point and cause pain.
And that would only be in an embu context, not randori. Do they have submission locks in that junior MMA?

[Kevin Leavitt]

NAGA Rules.

http://www.nagafighter.com/naga_rules.asp

IFBJJ:

http://www.ibjjf.org/rules.htm

two common set of rules. I prefer BJJ rules for kids as they are more about positional dominance, which is more important anyway.

Don't know where you find striking rules since this is new...but the grapplling rules would probably follow NAGA somewhat.

Keep in mind that in all cases it is kids against kids in the same weight classes.

Most of the safety comes from the referree supervision. A good referee knows what to watch for and will stop things when they become dangerous. The key is "good" referee.

Most venues know that if they don't have good refs then they will not last long because people will stop coming.

Cavet Emptor.

[edtang]

Not the same, not causation, but an awful high correlation in MMA's case for sure.

Have you trained at ALL at a dojo/gym/academy that offers MMA training, or alongside fighters?

[edtang]

From what I understand it is part and parcel now. Especially, with the popularity of the UFC and amateur adult events as models for the kid events. I wouldn't be surprised if they served beer to the parents, and everything else to emulate the adult venue. They already have the cage.

You do realize that if you are going to have a MMA match, a cage is much, much safer than a ring, right?

And, honestly, I can't believe the wildly ignorant and unfounded assumptions that some people are spouting out here on the board. If it's just a gym or dojo, there's no possible way they'd be serving alcohol to parents. You've got to be kidding me if you honestly believe that (even just for legal reasons).

[edtang]

My jujutsu instructor also teaches juniors and to quote him from another board: locks taught to under 18's should be to position only, not to pain. In other words, move the hand / elbow / shoulder etc to the correct position to apply the lock, which is generally the limit of natural movement, but not to apply the necessary pressure to take it beyond that point and cause pain.
And that would only be in an embu context, not randori. Do they have submission locks in that junior MMA?

That's not just juniors. That's how I've being trained right now in BJJ. my teacher is stressing to take it easy with torquing on other's joints, because we're all friends and we're training for mutual benefit; learning about proper positioning is much more important that actually applying the lock.

[DonMagee]

I'm not worried about joint locks and children. I've watched many kids bjj matches and not seen nearly as many injuries as kids judo (which does not allow joint locks). I am more worried about striking. I personally do not think kids should be in striking arts until their teens. Grappling is something kids do naturally for fun, striking is something they do in anger. Most kids can not disassociate anger from strking.

[Buck]

Ed, let me say that you know and I know that kids MMA tournaments are wrong as they are being handled. I would hate to see some drunk Yahoo parent climbing into the cage.

I understand your concern, I am not saying MMA isn't good. I am saying it is part of the adult world way too intense in many ways for kids. Why should that adult world include kids?

What are the real benefits for kids to fight. I don’t see short moments of victory, injury both mentally and physically as any benefit. There are no college scholarships. They can get self-esteem, discipline, and all of those other things in a host of activities geared to kids to maximize those benefits. Now think about the benefits of having kids do MMA and put it up against the benefits all the adults involved will get. It is pretty unfair to the kids.

MMA for kids is bad for the kids, just like underage drinking and other adult activities are bad for kids. Kids are not mini-mes, they are developing young humans who need and dependent on adult parents. To put them in a cage that is just like the adult fighters, or like fighting cocks says oodles on how this MMA kid thing is being handled. It is adult exploitation of kids. Cock fighters wait until their bird is mature enough to fight. You don’t see them putting in hatchlings. Kids emulate adults, is it really beneficial to kids to have to emulate a MMA fight?

My kid took chess. At a chess tournament you might think doesn't have the same intensity of parents found at popular sport games. Wrong. Parents are just as intense, and most tournaments don't allow the parents to watch the play, for that reason. I have seen allot of parent exploit their kids. The difference is the kids are playing chess and not trying to physically beat each other to submission. No kid in chess walks away physically injured. No swollen lips, no bruises, no blood. No tears from painful injuries.
That is the only thing that makes chess a better activity.

We are not Sparta. That is what I am saying. Let them be kids, they will be adults soon enough.

Don makes a good point about striking too. I am sure there is a whole bunch of other things like that, that haven't yet been brought up.

[edtang]

I will ask again, how is this different than kid's wrestling, kid's karate, or kid's judo? Or are you equally bothered by that?

[Kevin Leavitt]

Edward Tang wrote:

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Not the same, not causation, but an awful high correlation in MMA's case for sure.
Have you trained at ALL at a dojo/gym/academy that offers MMA training, or alongside fighters?

You might ask him the same question about his experience in aikido as well. (I didn't because I already know the answer).

[Buck]

I will ask again, how is this different than kid's wrestling, kid's karate, or kid's judo? Or are you equally bothered by that?

Real quickly I liked to ask, why can't kids wait? What is the rush?

Yes, I am. More bothered by MMA for kids. Sparring/Kumite completely out until 18. The mentality etc. of each activity is different from each other. Each then has a result that is different on kids from 6-18 years old.

For many parents like me, having kids do MMA isn't going to put adult MMA in a good light. You might see more of a resistance to MMA then other contact activies the day one kid is seriously injuried or dies. The younger the kid's age I think the greater the back-lash is going to be against MMA.

I think there is only one state that allows kids MMA events. That makes a majority of parents who don't favor kids MMA.

I am not trying to persuade you, or anyone. If you think your kids need to be in MMA, their your kids.

[Jennifer Yabut]

I'm not worried about joint locks and children. I've watched many kids bjj matches and not seen nearly as many injuries as kids judo (which does not allow joint locks). I am more worried about striking. I personally do not think kids should be in striking arts until their teens. Grappling is something kids do naturally for fun, striking is something they do in anger. Most kids can not disassociate anger from strking.

That is a very good point you made about striking. Again...I'm all for children learning martial arts, but only to learn *self-defense* - not so they can learn to *hit* another kid better.

[edtang]

Real quickly I liked to ask, why can't kids wait? What is the rush?

Yes, I am. More bothered by MMA for kids. Sparring/Kumite completely out until 18. The mentality etc. of each activity is different from each other. Each then has a result that is different on kids from 6-18 years old.

For many parents like me, having kids do MMA isn't going to put adult MMA in a good light. You might see more of a resistance to MMA then other contact activies the day one kid is seriously injuried or dies. The younger the kid's age I think the greater the back-lash is going to be against MMA.

I think there is only one state that allows kids MMA events. That makes a majority of parents who don't favor kids MMA.

I am not trying to persuade you, or anyone. If you think your kids need to be in MMA, their your kids.

Hi Phillip,

Actually, I really liked your thoughtful reply. I'm not 100% convinced that the idea of children's MMA matches as an exhibition is a good idea either, although I don't see the problem at all with the training and in very rare cases supervised sparring. Would I send my child to an academy that offered children's MMA? If it were practiced in a safe and ethical manner (and that is, of course, possible), then perhaps, but in terms of a full blown match? Probably not. But I'm never going to have a MMA match either, despite training in it.

I still feel that there's been a great deal of undue sensationalism in the reporting and response to the mainstream story about this children's MMA. I just watched half a dozen videos puporting to be children's MMA, including one exhibition in front of an audience in a cage. I have yet to see any sort of actual, intense match. If you think it is, it's because you've never really watched it. It looked very much like friendly sparring every clip I've watched so far. I've definitely seen youth wrestling, football collisions, and kid's acting out professional wrestling video clips that much more intense and much much more dangerous than the videos. I earnestly think that the response has been overblown and ignorant (although I understand where it's coming from).

As a general note, I am seeing that too many people around here expressing that Mixed Martial Arts are all about "brawling" or "cockfighting" or being "locked in a cage" (no one's being locked in cage. this isn't the same as locking up two chickens with blades attached to their legs. Let's get real here. These are trained athletes in a highly regulated environment, and Japan - the birthplace and cultural origin of Aikido - eats it up as popular entertainment for males and females of all ages) and are far too dismissive of the reality that training in those associated arts or sports takes just as much discipline, genuine humility and work as Aikido does.

Yes, it can be uncomfortably violent for some people. It's not for everyone. I don't think it should or can be for everyone. Yes, I understand there's philosophical and cultural underpinnings to the pursuit of Aikido that hold great meaning to some - I appreciate Aikido, I really do -

- but from someone with more first hand experience than most of you, there's no "brawling mentality" in my fellow MMA or BJJ practitioners (and there are some fighters alongside me, yes), no one's "chest thumping" or bragging they beat up an Aikidoka next door, and no one's learning those skills because they want to "prove their art better than yours" or anything like that. (I've read all of those quotes on this board since joining). They're just like Aikido in the sense of a having good spirit for training, self improvement and exploration, and everyone working for mutual benefit.

[Jennifer Yabut]

- but from someone with more first hand experience than most of you, there's no "brawling mentality" in my fellow MMA or BJJ practitioners (and there are some fighters alongside me, yes), no one's "chest thumping" or bragging they beat up an Aikidoka next door, and no one's learning those skills because they want to "prove their art better than yours" or anything like that. (I've read all of those quotes on this board since joining). They're just like Aikido in the sense of a having good spirit for training, self improvement and exploration, and everyone working for mutual benefit.

Thanks for sharing your first-hand experience with MMA. However, although the "chest-thumping" and "my art is better than yours" attitude may not be prevalent in your school, it *has* been expressed in other fora (especially in a *certain* MMA-dominated forum which delights in bad-mouthing most everyone who *doesn't* practice MMA) and all over YouTube. With all honesty, it gets tiresome after a while (personally, I just ignore those sites and YouTube comments) - and yes, it doesn't exactly help paint a positive picture of MMA to those of us "from the outside looking in". And you know what they say about first impressions... ;)

Seriously, though...do you understand where some of us are coming from?

[Kevin Leavitt]

Many form an opinion about aikido too. Aikibunnies, aikifruties, and all that other wonderful stuff come to mind, based on youtube, websites, and things that people post.

Participating in both areas, MMA/BJJ and Aikido I fail to see the validity of both arguments and find it quite senseless to let ignorant, immature people that represent the minority of both arts dominate and rule the judgement of these arts at large.

[Red Beetle]

MMA should not be promoted to children.
I think that ameture boxing, wrestling, judo is fine to promote to children, but I think MMA is far too violent to be pushed upon children. Not to mention the trashy culture that goes along with MMA: tattoos, wild-party mentality (drinking/recreational drug culture), promotions to/and glamorization of pornography (Tito Ortez's obviously staged "relationship" to porn-whore Jenna is the prime example of this, but there are others), advocation of steroids (MMA has done more to promote steroid abuse to youngster than any other sport today--can we even see a MMA event today on the tube that doesn't sport a bunch of juiced out retards?), and the list can continue and does continue. I don't want a society of children looking up to these punks, who have the wrong idea of what it means to be a man.

Children need to be taught that a real man marries a woman, stays devoted to his wife, takes care of his family, and studies to improve himself. Real men don't need recreational drugs to have a good time. They don't need anabolic steroids to get the job done.

People forget that MMA is simply the attempt to make one-on-one street fighting into a sport. It fails because there are no rules, judges, padded floors, and refs. There is no surety that multiple people will not enter into the equation; no certainty that a plethora of weapons will not enter the theatre; and no guarentee you won't go to jail, prison, or the grave when it is all said and done. Another aspect that MMA fails to produce that a real street fight often provides is the element of actual anger and/or wrath. Someone untrained, yet enraged and fighting for a cause he believes in, can be near impossible to stop, even for an expert fighter. Those who have been in some real vicious fights don't look at fighting as a joke; they look at MMA as a joke when compared to an actual fight.

[Jennifer Yabut]

Many form an opinion about aikido too. Aikibunnies, aikifruties, and all that other wonderful stuff come to mind, based on youtube, websites, and things that people post.

Oh yes...and the one website that shall remain nameless even had an "Aikido sucks!" month. :rolleyes:

Participating in both areas, MMA/BJJ and Aikido I fail to see the validity of both arguments and find it quite senseless to let ignorant, immature people that represent the minority of both arts dominate and rule the judgement of these arts at large.

Unfortunately, it just takes a few "bad apples" to spoil the fun for everyone. I don't know much about MMA, but I really don't care for the attitudes I saw in some of its practitioners. One MMA instructor even called me a "LARPer in denial", because I didn't advocate free sparring with bokken. :rolleyes:

[RonRagusa]

I will ask again, how is this different than kid's wrestling, kid's karate, or kid's judo? Or are you equally bothered by that?

None of the aforementioned kid's sports permit beating on of a competitor who has been taken to the ground and "mounted". Nor do they permit choking, stomping upon a downed competitor or joint locks intended to submit a competitor.

[dragonteeth]

I'll start by saying I have mixed feelings about this. But since other folks have already said the things against it that I might, I think I'll share some of my thoughts in favor of it.

With all due respect, the safety argument is full of holes. Compare boxing, which normally starts kids at this age, with MMA. Boxing, accoring to this article in EJMAS, http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_a_0700.htm, has had over 1400 recorded deaths. MMA has had exactly one, Sam Vasquez from Texas, RIP. According to this article from the Journal of Sports Science and Medicine, http://www.jssm.org/combat/1/18/v5combat-18.pdf, fewer than half of professional MMA fighters (with no protective equipment, who generate exponentially higher forces than those of amateur children) had injuries at the end of a fight. Of those, almost half were facial lacerations, another roughly 6% were blunt facial injuries (black eye, busted nose, etc.), and fewer than 3% were to joints. The correlation between age and injury showed that the incidence of injury rose with age.

So let's look at other things kids could be doing. In 1998 (according to this fact sheet http://www.wwgh.com/search/webpages/facts/bike.htm) nearly 362,000 kids were injured on a bicycle seriously enough to warrant a trip to the ER. 226 of those kids died, 200 of which were struck by a motor vehicle. Another study done in Norway cited here http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;105/3/659 showed that 81% of adult soccer players had mild to severe defecits in memory, cognition, and attention compared to non-soccer playing controls. Hmm, maybe Eli Lilly should sign up as a soccer tournament sponsor...?

My point is this - yes you can get hurt doing MMA. However, there are a lot of other things kids do that get them hurt on a very regular basis (or even killed, which doesn't seem to happen in even in pro MMA very frequently). If your reason for being against kids doing MMA is safety, then there are a great many things you should also be against. At what point do you draw the line between the risks of any sport and the benefits of participation?

What are the benefits? The father who was interviewed on CNN this weekend about his children participating in MMA competition said that the teacher was very careful to teach the same moral principles about limiting technique to the mats and to emergencies that were taught in the kids' previous dojo (or dojang, as I think he said they did TKD before this). To me that is the crucial role that the parent plays - finding the Mr. Miyagi in a sea of Kreese Senseis. Choose well, and your kid can get the same self-esteem/self-control/self-defense benefits he or she can get in any other martial art at that age.

That plays into another point - what about the violence? Someone quoted one of the MMA kids talking about being able to punch someone without getting into trouble. He could have said, yeah it's cool cause I can go to school and beat everybody up. But to me, what he said and how he said it reflects an underlying understanding that this is only for the ring, and no where else. We have all seen that kids who train at quality martial art schools tend not to be bullies, despite popular (ignorant) public belief. They also tend not to be the bullied, for that matter. How many kids have we seen in highly publicized cases kill younger kids with moves they learned watching WWE or playing Mortal Kombat? Is it not worth thinking that if these kids had been in a dojo learning some sort of martial art including MMA which gave them both moral training and an appropriate outlet for aggression, maybe that would not have happened?

Okay, I'll grant you that there are other martial arts which may be more age appropriate. However, the other martial arts are now fighting a public opinion fight. We've seen over and over ad nauseam how folks will come on here and say how much better MMA/BJJ is than aikido in a "real" fight. They go on the karate, TKD, judo, etc boards and say the same thing. When dad's kicked back on the sofa watching Spike TV or surfing the net thinking about what martial art he wants his kid to learn so he doesn't get knocked around in school, MMA is right there waiting for him in all its obviously effective gory...er I mean glory. It's gritty, hard core, and just what his son needs to win any fight he comes up against. Plus it will give him a leg up on high school wrestling down the road.

Or maybe he's thinking about his daughter. He's visited several schools in the area, but none of them seem to offer her any defense if she ends up on the ground. BJJ/MMA is a very obvious choice to him as an anti-rape defense. Yes, there are many other martial arts that would offer his kids as many if not more options in a fight than those two (and without the need to go into the ring). Unless mom and dad know about them though, they'll pick what they think works best of the ones they do know.

So am I going to enroll my young son in MMA? Probably not. Kung fu is probably where we will start, moving to ju-jitsu and then aikido once he is cognitively ready for it. Yes, I did say ju-jitsu first because he does have the makings of a very talented wrestler. But if he decides later on his own that he wants to try MMA, then I'll find the right teacher and make him a good mouthguard.

Okay, sorry for the long post. Please flame away. :o

[Ron Tisdale]

I have to say I really liked the posts in this thread. I first heard about this on Friday night, and was pretty horrified at first thought. But after reading this thread, I've decided my first instinct was incorrect. With the right instructor, in the right setting, and the right ruleset, there's probably no reason why not. Just like the judo rules for kids, or wrestling (which I used to do).

Of course the media has all kinds of hype for the new fad. But from what I've seen of MMA, it will be here long after the hype is gone, and if so, you can bet kids will be doing it. Prefferably in a gym/dojo, with a qualified instructor, yada yada yada.

As for the screaming parents...oh well. You know parents... :D

Best,
Ron

[Buck]

I pray for the kids who don't have a good instructor, with good parents behind them, and in the gym having good kids and their parents. Ideally, the kids getting all the proper

For the less ideal conditions, it sure will weed out the "weak" kids. Those who can't take it. Because if you think about it, you really have to condition those kids mentally to stay in it for the long run- 6 mos.

My new tag: Why start them so early, what is the rush?

[Buck]

Good point to bring up the media. It is a very powerful tool. If I remember the media played a pivotal role in public opinion in the Viet Nam war.

Most parents are not conditioned to the intense brutality of the UFC then upon seeing a fight, you think they are going say, yea, that is what my kid is going to do. Most parents are going be reject the idea that their kid is going to do such a thing. Parents by the score are going to avoid putting their kids in a "cockfight."

The adult MMA association of violence of a fight shown on TV I think would be enough to scare parents away in some places for fear of child abuse charges faced for putting their kids in MMA. Key in to the association of, and the sensitivity and little tolerance many states have for the mistreatment of a child.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Just last night I watched a parent chew out one of my son's Judo Yundansha Sensei because her son worked hard and deserved a yellow belt!

Son was standing right next to the mom and sensei when this went down.

Sigh!

[Kevin Leavitt]

Some of you act like you are throwing a untrained kid in the ring to the wolves!

Keep in mind that most of these kids want to do this. They have proper training, and coaching. They are put in there with a ref, and a another kid at the same skill level, age and weight appropriate, there are rules.

This is not a cockfight.

It would be if you simply took your scared 8 year old to the ring, told him to suck it up, he needed to be a man, then threw him into the cage against another kid equally scared, no rules, people yelling kill him, kill him, and then told them that the only way out was to render the other kid unconscious or unable to fight.

That is a cockfight, this is not what we are talking about.

[dragonteeth]

I'm beginning to think that maybe I've become a little more immune to violence than I thought I was. The last three UFC pay per views that I've seen seemed no more "brutal" to me than the last five boxing matches that I've watched, nor for that matter more than the last several professional hockey matches. We won't even go into the staged dramatic brawling that goes on in WWE these days... Now the original UFC stuff before they toned it down to gain state sanctioning was over the edge, especially when it was still controlled in part by Rorion Gracie. Vale tudo is and always has been very brutal, but that is not the same as what MMA/UFC fighting is today. MMA hasn't been vale tudo really since UFC 28, which was the first bout sanctioned by Nevada under the new rules.

Nor is it the same as what these kids are doing. In vale tudo there was no regard for weight, size or skill, nor rules concerning illegal strike zones and techniques. That would definitely be a terrible thing to allow a child to do. But again, that is not what these kids are doing. They seem to be following a rule set that is even more protective than the state sanctioning board rules tend to be. Take a look at the rules from Missouri's governing board here - http://www.sos.mo.gov/adrules/csr/current/20csr/20c2040-8.pdf, while keeping in mind that the kids matches involve more protective gear than what is allowed for the adults.

My guess is that any ref and any organization who wants to keep from having their pants sued off is going to err on the side of caution when calling kids matches. However, if they and the instructors are like most of the martial arts folks that I know who work with children, they really care about the kids they instruct. While most might see the occasional bloody nose or black eye as a learning experience, they'd be utterly mortified to even think about something serious happening to one of the youngsters on their watch.

[Josh Reyer]

None of the aforementioned kid's sports permit beating on of a competitor who has been taken to the ground and "mounted". Nor do they permit choking, stomping upon a downed competitor or joint locks intended to submit a competitor.

Are you 100% kid's MMA does? Or are you just assuming that kids are doing exactly what is shown in the UFC?

I think there is a good, fruitful discussion to be had about safety in kids' MMA. Just as in Little League, wherein children do not (or should not) play in the exact same manner as Major League Baseball, by no means should kids be in the same conditions as Pride or the UFC. So, yes, by all means, talking about what should be allowed at what age is absolutely important.

However, that discussion cannot be had if one's idea of MMA is of "juiced up retards", "brutally" fighting in a "bare-knuckled" "human cockfight". Anyone with such an idea of MMA is not informed enough to participate in the discussion. To be sure, the American MMA community (specifically the UFC) is largely responsible for the grievously distorted view many hold of the sport (and art). But that doesn't absolve others from being properly informed if they want to hold an informed opinion. The newscasters in the clip above were derelict in this, and they should be ashamed of themselves.

[Buck]

Some of you act like you are throwing a untrained kid in the ring to the wolves!

Keep in mind that most of these kids want to do this. They have proper training, and coaching. They are put in there with a ref, and a another kid at the same skill level, age and weight appropriate, there are rules.

This is not a cockfight.

It would be if you simply took your scared 8 year old to the ring, told him to suck it up, he needed to be a man, then threw him into the cage against another kid equally scared, no rules, people yelling kill him, kill him, and then told them that the only way out was to render the other kid unconscious or unable to fight.

That is a cockfight, this is not what we are talking about.

Fair enough, lets see this through Soccer Mommy Public's eyes, with a vague understanding of martial arts; McDojos where kids are doing acrobatic dance.

Kids want to ride bike, drive cars, hang out with friends, bullies want to hurt other kids. Kids should study to go to college. Kids should do nice sports like soccer, tennis, sports that are acceptable at school. The kind of sports where I won't see my child get thrown head first to the ground, or sat upon and punched by another.

Then have her watch UFC, she will be horrified. Then tell her that her husband wants their kids to do it.

In her eyes, MMA is a cockfight.

There are some parents who will push their kids into MMA, there are few who will guide their kids, whereas others will regret it.

What emotional and psychological price will kids pay for being a MMA kid fighter? Sure it depends on their parents, and society. Your views are based on you and your experience in martial arts. That makes you the minority parent. But what about the rest of the parents that are not like you?

Did you hear how third graders plotted to kill a teacher. They were well organized and had weapons. Do you think there is enough violence that kids are exposed in life? My goodness they are 3rd graders. You think MMA is going to accepted with open arms by Soccer Mommy Public? How comfortable do you think the public is going to be about kids being MMA kid fighters?

I am wondering if anyone will answer this, why can’t kids wait to do MMA until they are adults? Is kids MMA like spinach and put hair on their chests? Will it make men out of them?

[Buck]

They seem to be following a rule set that is even more protective than the state sanctioning board rules tend to be.

Heck, they might as well just wrestle, it's all there, no controversy like MMA. If they are good enough they can go to the Olympics. Or they can get college scholarships.

I have another question, what is the parents goal who put kids into MMA, is it only because the kids "want it?" This is a question I think many parents do and will ask?

I would hate to be the first or any parent for that matter that has to face a judge for putting my kid in MMA. Or be the first or only MMA parent to have my kid seriously injured for life or have to bury. Yes, this goes for other contact and violent sports.

[RonRagusa]

Are you 100% kid's MMA does? Or are you just assuming that kids are doing exactly what is shown in the UFC?

Not at all sure. I am sure that those techniques are not permitted in the sports mentioned by edtang. Is there a standardized rule set for kid's MMA bouts? If so perhaps someone could provide a link.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Phil,

So you are saying that MMA would lead kids to commit further acts of violence?

W that psychological state is being instilled into kids by MMA?

Hitting is bad? Where do you draw the line?

Tae Kwon Do is okay? What is the distinction between TKD striking at MMA striking? What delinates it.

I heard almost the same argument when the city built a skateboard park in our neighborhood, the neighbors did not like it because they percieved it would bring in all kinds of bad things and encouraged kids to do drugs etc.

Same was said about rock and roll in the 50s.

Is the argument because we cannot identify with a culture of people that do not wear plan white GIs and do things the same way as suburban America?

Boxing in inner cities has done wonders to keep kids off the streets and give them meaning a purpose.

Just because kids wear dyed hair, mohawks, and grapple and strike around in rash guards and board shorts...meaning they are not like other martial artist, does not necessarily mean they will organize or turn towards committing violence.

I think we have to make sure, again, that we are looking at the arguments against it rationally and logically without emotion and judgement.

I still see alot of this being injected into the thread.

[Ron Tisdale]

You think MMA is going to accepted with open arms by Soccer Mommy Public?

Well, thank god I don't look to what Soccer Mommy Public (what ever that is) for my opinions about what is right or wrong. I see no reason for that to determine the bounds of this discussion. At least, no one has made a convincing case for it yet.

How comfortable do you think the public is going to be about kids being MMA kid fighters?

Again, the public doesn't determine what I think is right. They may determine what is legal, or under what conditions it is allowed, etc. Their comfort level?? Not my issue.

I am wondering if anyone will answer this, why can't kids wait to do MMA until they are adults?

I'm sure many have, and many will. Most of the top competitors in MMA either wrestled, boxed, did TMA, or some other contact sport in their youth. But just like there are jr. wrestling leagues through out the country, there may be jr. MMA leagues. Unless there is a convincing difference between the two, I can't see a logical reason not to have both for the families that choose to participate. Someone brought up a fireman's carry move earlier...I'd been doing that and having it done to me for years as a kid in wrestling. A similar waza exists in judo, and most forms of jujutsu. Kids have been doing on their own in school yard fights for centuries.

Is kids MMA like spinach and put hair on their chests?

Now you are just being silly.

Will it make men out of them?

Are you sure you don't post on e-budo?

Best,
Ron (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39469)

[dragonteeth]

Phillip, I hate to tell you, but a large number of "soccer mommies" think that we're all violent sociopaths, no matter what martial art we do. The question I have for you is this - are you making the decision about whether kids should or should not do MMA based on actual knowledge of what they are doing, or on the basis of public opinion?

Here are a couple of hypothetical answers to your question about why start MMA as a kid. I'm sure that the answers will be different for every family that has made the decision.

1) "My kid tried tae kwon do first, but got really bored after a year or so. He's really interested in trying this, so we are giving it a trial run."

2) "My son really likes to play video games, and it's hard to get him to exercise. This is the only thing we could talk him into trying."

3) "My child gets bullied a lot in school. We tried another martial art but we like this one because it teaches him to maintain mental control during a fight and to think on his feet."

4) "There have been several teenaged girls raped in our community this year. The karate school in town really doesn't teach the girls what to do when someone has them on their backs, but this one does."

5) "There are only three martial arts schools in our rural town. The aikido school doesn't teach kids, and the tae kwon do school is very commercialized. We like this instructor and we feel safe allowing our son to train here. He won't be competing until we feel he's ready."

(note to the TKD and karate folks - just had to put something there, not intentionally picking on you...)

Moving on to the wrestling question.... Many localities outside of the Midwest do not have youth league wrestling that feeds into the high school wrestling programs. Most small cities and towns don't have judo or jujitsu schools either. MMA could be a good way to give a child with a serious talent for grappling an early start, giving them a leg up on the competition later on which could lead to championships and scholarships. Alternatively, the youngster could be a girl with an interest in grappling. Many localities still bar females from wrestling. Finally, 22 years after a group of us asked to join the wrestling team in high school, my alma mater has its first female wrestler. Or again a kid could have an interest in grappling, have no judo/jujitsu resources, and either attend a private school with no wrestling option or be home schooled. Last, the kid could have an interest in wrestling, but the parents are concerned he might develop an eating disorder (sounds like a stretch, but I know two families that barred their kids from high school wrestling for that very reason).

I could go on and on, but my real point is two-fold. First, things are right or wrong on their own merits, not because the opinion of an uneducated public deems it so. If you really want to know whether this is a good or bad thing, go there and see for yourself before you judge. Don't let the garbage that the inflammatory press spouts out be your only source of information. Second, allowing a child to participate in a sport after investigating with due diligence the safety measures, the instructors, and the activity itself does not constitute child abuse just because other people don't agree that it should be a childhood activity. If that were true, the NRA would have ended its youth shooting programs long ago. Parents have the right and the ability to choose what is best for their children in their unique set of circumstances. If you don't feel parents should have the right to choose whether their child participates in MMA and you live in Missouri (where this is taking place), then feel free to gather your relevant statistical research and present it to your legislator.

[Buck]

Let’s step outside our own personal worlds. I don't want to be argumentative it serves no purpose. You may be for MMA for kids, but society as a whole isn't. That doesn't mean society will not warm up to it someday. If they do they will change it to fit what society wants. There are more parents against MMA and MMA for kids then there are for it. Those parents for it are a minority demographic group.

MMA fights at first got a blockade of rejection and to be accepted changed to be more accepted. Even though changes where made MMA became more popular, but the general population still isn't crazy about it. How then are the going to be open to MMA kid fighters, or MMA when their kids can take more established actives with a whole different purpose. What is the purpose behind MMA, we know what it is. Will that purpose change for kids MMA. No, it will not.

I am still waiting for my question to be answered of why can't kids wait to do MMA?

I will answer that question, there is no reason why kids can't wait. And so they should. The reason they don't wait is because of the parents, for the parents' reason.

Then how long will it before the government gets involve in regulation, or is that something the government wants to do. The government due to public pressure may have no choice because of all the adults who are not the best. Adults not interested in the welfare of the kids, like they should. The government then needs to step in and regulate.

The public will never fully accept it. Unless they change the purpose, the goal, increased safety, and the point of kids MMA. Then if you do all that you end up with wrestling. Take in consideration how the public feels about protecting kids. In some states you can’t spank your kid that is considered abuse. Countless schools don’t allow bullying of any type. What school doesn’t take fights as a serious offence, and depending on the law and state, and age of the kids, can face charges. We don’t live in “Happy Days” where the Fonz is cool. This isn’t “Back To The Future” with Biff the bully.

Society is much more sensitive to violence to kids and kids committing violence. Can society live without MMA for kids, yes it can. Can parents live without their kids being in MMA, yes they can. Can kids live without being in MMA, yes they can. Do we need to encourage kids to beat on each other, do we need to exploit them in a model of sport that is for adults. Yes, they can. What good mother can stand to watch her kid intentionally in engage in a MMA match where the point is to beat up or get beat up. We spend an enormous about of time, effort and worry in protecting our kids, as parents-good ones. Why be hypocritical by placing them in harms way, even though we put limited safeguard on MMA for kids. We can’t put total safeguards in MMA if you did that there wouldn’t be any point?

You really have to step out side of your box and look at how society sees it. Our opinions here don't carry much weight. Many see it as a child cockfight, no matter how much padding is worn.


Dudes, I am winded. That was way too long. I got to cut back.

[Kevin Leavitt]

So MMA equates to violence.

Good mothers would not let their kids participate in MMA.

Kids can wait to particpate in MMA.

Government should decide what is acceptable.

It is harmful to kids.

Kids need to be protected from MMA.

Just want to make sure I understand your positions on this topic.

I would still like you to delineate the where you draw the line between what is acceptable martial arts for kids and which one are not.

All arts involving any striking at all? that is with fist or weapons? That would eliminate TKD, Karate, Fencing, and many others.

Which ones are acceptable. Where do we say this is violence and this is not?

We know how to define pornography I guess...so where do we delineate between acceptable violence and non-acceptable violence?

[RonRagusa]

Where do we say this is violence and this is not?

When one child mounts another and proceeds to, as they say, ground and pound, raining down hammer fists and elbows on the downed kid's face & head I'd say that qualifies as violence.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Even for adults, the rules call for referee stoppage once a fighter is downed and no longer demonstrates the ability to defend him/herself.

I agree that fights should be stopped once you get into this scenario.

Ron, so anything up to this point would be okay?

I wish we had a reference to the rules that we might be discussing as being unacceptable.

[RonRagusa]

I agree that fights should be stopped once you get into this scenario.

Ron, so anything up to this point would be okay?

Hi Kevin,

Well, not really. I'd like to see the referee be required to stop a match with the successful demonstration of any of the following: full mount, any choke, arm bar, leg bar, heel hook or any triangle involving the head.

Further I'd ban completely any blows to the head of a kid taken to the mat. That includes fists, elbows or knees. No stomps to a downed opponent.

In general I would like to see a shift in attitude from winning at any cost to skillful application of a variety of techniques representative of the different arts that comprise MMA.

The UFC should really step up here and take the lead in establishing a strict set of rules governing kids training and competition in MMA. They are, after all, the premier organization in the sport and in an excellent position to dictate how kids should be trained and compete.

Ron

[DonMagee]

None of the aforementioned kid's sports permit beating on of a competitor who has been taken to the ground and "mounted". Nor do they permit choking, stomping upon a downed competitor or joint locks intended to submit a competitor.

Actually, in judo and bjj well before the age of 16 you can choke. Armbars in judo however require you to16. In bjj/sub grappling you can choke and armbar/kneebar/whatever at very young ages, but they also have positional only divisions and other restricted divisions for worried parents.

Again, I see no problem with sub grappling at any age. My biggest worry is at what age kids can disassociate anger and violence from striking. Punching someone hard in the face is a very life changing experience. I know many adults who can not disassociate hate, anger and wanting to kill from striking. They go into the ring hating their opponent and wanting to hurt him, not wanting to win a fight with good sportsmanship. I would think that young kids (under 16) would have the same problems. Now think of the emotional content of say sitting on someones chest and striking them. Think of the primal emotions that inspires. Now as adults we are able to overcome this (well most of us). We can see it is just a sport, we can compete and thank our opponent afterward. The question is at what age is it possible for people to do this, and if the child can not do this, is it healthy?

[Ron Tisdale]

There are more parents against MMA and MMA for kids then there are for it. Those parents for it are a minority demographic group.

What do you base this on? So far you have provided NO evidence that this is the case. Other than your words, that is.

I am still waiting for my question to be answered of why can't kids wait to do MMA?

I answered it. Unless you have me on ignore... :D

Best,
Ron

[Marc Abrams]

This has been a fascinating thread to watch evolve. It has made me sit back and think beyond my initial reactions to the posters before I felt settled enough to offer an opinion. I started in martial arts and fighting sports as a pre-teen, have coached and ref'ed sports beginning in my teens, am a parent, grandparent and have specialized training in child psychology This is the "backdrop" with which I view this topic (I am a big fan of MMA).

Violent competition is common with many male, species. Dominant, male position within animal groups is apparently an evolutionary process allowing the "best" male genes to replicate. Watch a discovery show, animal kingdom show,..... and the level of violence can be quite astounding. The human species has a long, storied history of violent interactions within and against other social groups. This supports the claim among some, that violence may be "hard-wired" from an evolutionary perspective, particularly in males.

Human's have "evolved" to the point where we can sublimate our violent urges in more socially-acceptable forms. That level of "disconnect" between the impulse and behavior has both positive and negative ramifications. Within our culture, we have such "wonderful" sublimated activities such as football, lacrosse, hockey, ..... Thirty years ago, basketball had very little physical contact involved. Look at the level of violent contact today.

Parents can easily delude themselves into thinking that it is okay for their "Johnny" to go out and render the opposing quarterback unable to continue to play, and not see themselves encouraging their child to be very violent. How many times have we seen little league parents fight, pop warner football parents yelling for their children to leave bodies on the ground, soccer parents to encourage their children to take out a good player. That seems to be more acceptable to the general public than a parent encouraging their child to win in a mma, judo, or karate match. We simply excuse this by saying that the parents are just "over-reacting."

There is a level of direct-connect between what a child learns in MMA, judo, karate,.... between violent acts and their consequences. A good teacher helps a child to understand that connection and the tremendous responsibility contained in that. My discomforts exist not in allowing children to participate in these arts and fighting sports. Well-regulated and supervised practice and competition can be a positive experience for children. My discomforts lie elsewhere.

1) I have a strong disagreement with those teachers and schools who "sell" what they are doing as teaching the children "conflict-resolution skills." This is a very common pitch in my community. I do not consider "selling" children the idea that the good resolution of conflict comes from the successful utilization of more efficient, effective and violent physical actions to be "ethical" responsible and honest. The skill sets learned are relevant to that particular fighting sport/art, with carryover to self-defense situations. Children, particularly young children (which is why I strongly object to martial arts programs for tots) are not cognitively capable of genuinely parceling out where stylized violence begins and ends. A good teacher can continuously reinforce the boundaries for children and the children to learn that.

2) My biggest concern has to do with the forces that young, developing bodies are exposed to. This applies to not only martial arts/fighting sports, but to football, baseball.... Today, parents are so concerned with creating uber-children. Children are pushed, prod, and trained a such young ages to excel in the sport chosen by the parent. Children's bodies (through late adolescence into early adulthood) are going through profound growth changes. In order for the body to allow that to happen, the bones and connective tissue tend to be softer than an adults body. A perfect example of this is that my 13 year old son is recovering from a fracture of his growth plate on the top of the tibia from having landing with stiff legs and knees after going off a small ski jump in a ski school. From an evolutionary perspective, the human species is growing in height and weight at quite a rapid pace. Parents are allowing their children to do weight training and young ages, protein supplements, hormones,..... pushing the body to it's growth limits. However, the bones and connective tissue are not hardening any earlier. The amount of rotator cuff injuries in preteens playing baseball have doctors aghast. The number of blown out knees from football in young children also has doctors worried. The pressures and torquing that these young bodies are receiving are significant and do carry with them consequences.

I would not be comfortable putting my children (and I did not) into the kinds of activities where in their latency years, their bodies would be subjected to high degrees of impacts, torques, strikes, ..... My youngest son (now 13) started karate when he was five. BUT, there was and is minimal sparring, which is highly controlled. The emphasis is on form and control. He is now also an Aikido student of mine. I do not teach the young children any significant torquing techniques. I teach Ikkyo, kote-gaeshi, and shiho-nage in a manner that relies on unbalancing the person and not excess torquing of a joint.

Strikes to the head, no matter how heavily padded the heads, hands and feet are, cause a particular movement of the brain inside the skull that is not desirable (look at Ali- The rope-a-dope, created a genuine neurological dope). I do not see any advantage of advocating frequent head banging at any age (does somebody believe that 100 headers a day with a young child in soccer is not causing the brain to bounce back and forth?). That is another concern when examining what I would want my child to be exposed to.

I have no problems with children being in these sports and arts, as long as there is some degree of responsible limits placed upon them. There is always in inherent risk in any aspect of life. Reasonable (what is reasonable is an unanswered question) amounts of torque, impact, aggression,... are not bad things, but good things that the body and person learns to grow from. This can range for developing good reflexes, core body strength, agility, control of ones own impulses,..... I find the artificial separation of how people choose to look at these activities to be somewhat disturbing. A parent would have no problem wanting to ban mma for children but not insist that their child wear a helmet skiing, biking, skateboarding.... That same parent might be proud of how hard their child decked another child on the football field.

We as parents, have a responsibility to make the important decisions as to what activities our children engage in, and are exposed to. Frankly, I am more comfortable with Kevin as a parent. He carefully limits the amount of violence that he child can watch, while allowing his child to train in a safe atmosphere in which violent acts are controlled and the sense of responsibility is always paramount.

Our societies "outrage" against MMA serves as a pathetic backdrop to our societies support of questionable wars, indifference towards starvation and mass murders/genocide in Africa (before that, eastern europe). We want to "protect" our children from being exposed to MMA while they can look at the papers and see dead bodies, go to the theatre and see a pg-13 movie with enough deaths to exceed both hands. Who are we kidding? At least the child who learns MMA, Judo, ..., has a direct experience between acts of violence and their consequences, what anger and fear does to one's own body and ability to think straight. Of course their are risks involved. Then again, so is stepping outside in the morning and getting the paper. Are we honest about those risks? MMA is not a sport where someone is going to be able to compete in for 20 years and not expect some permanent consequences. Heck, my wrestling, soccer, karate .... days still have daily reminders on my body that I cannot wish away. I do not regret those experiences, but everything does come with some cost.

I have spent my life as a parent, and now grandparent to help educate my children to be able to weight decisions based upon some analysis of benefit and cost. When they were young, those decisions were the responsibility of both my wife and I. As they aged, we helped them to look at how and why we made those choices (it was still not open to their choices in many areas), teaching them to hopefully make their own good choices in their lives. If I had a young child today, I would still not allow the child to take MMA, but NOT because I believed that it was unnaturally violent or taught children to be violent. My choice is based upon my life experiences and concerns about healthy physical development. Another parent might view that differently and I respect that decision as well. The only decisions I would not support, would be based upon wanting a child to be the most effective, efficient instrument of violence that a parent could aspire in that child. That has NOTHING to do with training in MMA.

Marc Abrams

[Ron Tisdale]

Excellent post Marc!
Best,
Ron

[Kevin Leavitt]

Yes Good post Marc.

Ron. Personally, I agree with your concept of rules to be honest.

It is somewhat along the rules of Modern Pankration, which I think is a good bridge between grappling and full out UFC.

Check it out. http://teamusapankration.com/rules.html

[Buck]

It is disheartening all the violence in the world. We as parents all have a choice. We can act like animals, or not. We can teach our kids to be animals or not. If it is believed that we "hard-wired" for violence then how do you explain those men such as O'Sensei? How do we explain kids who don't want anything to do with violence? On the other hand, how do we explain parents making and turning their kids violent. The film, "Heavy Metal Jacket" really dealt well with how you turn someone violent. Those kids who do become violent we treat them differently in society. They get help to deal with their violent behavior or they become punished, or both. Even though society loves violence, we don't tolerate it from kids. The crazy thing is that society greatly influences kids with drowning them in violent forms of films, books, games, and TV.

All the great and powerful warring societies knew to be effective in making a warrior you had to condition the kids early to be warriors from an early age. Japan was a great example of that. Throw in Sparta too. There are lots of examples of that in countries today too. Then they become adults influence society to continue acceptance of violence and the cycle of violence continues. Water it down to tolerant levels and Volia! There you have it our modern culture of contact sports.

I don't think humans are like swine. Where in one or two generations apart from domestication, the animal turns feral. That to me is "hard-wired." We can be conditioned for violence from a very early age.

I agree it is hypocritical to have parents support that and reject MMA. But MMA is real, not choreographed like pro-wrestling, it isn't football, and it isn't hockey. There are many parents in society who don't have their heads screwed on right. A reason I don't think we need MMA for kids, either.

However screwed up some parents are as parents, or one-sided the media is against MMA for kids, or MMA, the majority of society as it stands now is against MMA for kids as it is.

For society to be more accepting of MMA even though it loves violence, MMA has to have bigger paydays, and a Don King. It would also have to change it rules some more to eliminate blood, and have a point worthy of a virtual violent society besides beating the other guy bloody. Maybe there needs to be a ball thrown in and a goal of some sort.

I don't think society needs another contact sport for kids. There is no good reason why kids shouldn't wait until adulthood. Each parent who wants their kids in MMA should realize they face an uphill battle, unless things change to fit society. Denial of this fact isn’t going to change things as they are now.

[Marc Abrams]

Buck:

You can wish all you want, but we simply are animals. Much of us is genetically setup and hardwired in. All of your hopes and attempts at conditioning will not rewire what we were born with. At best, we can make adaptations to the base. O'Sensei changed significantly over his lifetime- adaptation to the base.

We all maintain the right the guide our children in the directions we think are best for your children. For you, MMA is not right for your children and I respect that decision. I would not respect it if you wanted to impose that decision on everybody else.

Marc Abrams

[Kevin Leavitt]

Buck wrote:

All the great and powerful warring societies knew to be effective in making a warrior you had to condition the kids early to be warriors from an early age. Japan was a great example of that. Throw in Sparta too. There are lots of examples of that in countries today too. Then they become adults influence society to continue acceptance of violence and the cycle of violence continues. Water it down to tolerant levels and Volia! There you have it our modern culture of contact sports.

So is not aikido a watered down form of violence? What makes it any diferent from modern contact sports?

I agree it is hypocritical to have parents support that and reject MMA. But MMA is real, not choreographed like pro-wrestling, it isn't football, and it isn't hocke

so I would imply that from this that you consider that Pro-wrestling is Okay because it is "not real"?

I have issues with what pro wrestling represents. I have no issue with my son watching UFC. I do have issue with him watching pro wrestling with all the anger, and deception, and violence that it represents real or unreal.

However screwed up some parents are as parents, or one-sided the media is against MMA for kids, or MMA, the majority of society as it stands now is against MMA for kids as it is.

As screwed up as some parents may seem, and I agree there are many that don't hold the same values that I do. The U.S. is founded on personal liberties that allow them to be as screwed up as they want to be. I don't believe it is up to us to impose our own sense of values or beliefs.

The only argument that i think you can present is one based on harm. That is, demonstrate that a harm is being done to someone by another. It can be physcial or mental.

If harm is not being done, then government does not have the right to interfere.

No one has presented an argument that holds water based on harm. No studies showing that MMA activities are more or less dangerous than other contact sports.

No studies showing that MMA activities/sports present mental harm more than PG-13 (or some G rated!) movies today.

For every argument presented that says MMA is bad, you can find an example of a permissiable activity that presents the same thing.

So, so far, I have only seen it as an emotional argument.

Legistlation based on emotions, beliefs, or religion is dangerous ground. It allows erodes the civil rights of others.

It is not about the majority or popular opinion, but about civil liberties and rights.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Okay, that is my ACLU approach to this.

The reality as to why it won't happen is we are also a very litigious society.

Go ahead and try and insure or sanction a MMA event that allows NHB UFC rules for kids. Most states and insurance organizations will say NO.

I think once you look at the risk involved that most governments will only allow rules that mitigate alot of danger.

Hence, we you see rules as outlined by Pankration.

This is an argument based on mitigating risk, not based on emotion.

[Buck]

Buck:

You can wish all you want, but we simply are animals. Much of us is genetically setup and hardwired in. All of your hopes and attempts at conditioning will not rewire what we were born with. At best, we can make adaptations to the base. O'Sensei changed significantly over his lifetime- adaptation to the base.

We all maintain the right the guide our children in the directions we think are best for your children. For you, MMA is not right for your children and I respect that decision. I would not respect it if you wanted to impose that decision on everybody else.

Marc Abrams

It isn't important to me to debate to terms and labels. We are all living creatures. What was saying is that we have a choice in our behavior. We can act like animals, or regress to our animal behavior, or we don't. We don't have to be violent. There are people who are born more violent then others. Some people change over time or quickly to one side or the other. We don't need to teach our kids violence to exist, like an animal fighting over mating rights, or fighting off other males in a marked territory. Humans are able to function differently.

We think we have that right. It isn't true. I don't know who would say it is a right to teach their kids to be cannibals. I don't know who would agree that we should work our kids in coal mines 12-15 hr. days. Take racism as an example too. Laws direct us toward what society expects. We do live in a society.

People who want to put their kids in MMA should not expect the red carpet treatment. These parents should be prepared for the reality that society isn't going to be happy with MMA for kids.

I asked a question that hasn't been answered. It is a question in my mind that needs to be answered. Critical above any of the rhetoric said here in support of kids doing MMA. I understand why the question of why kids can’t wait until they are 18 has not been answered.

I can’t really respect any parent’s decision to place their kids in harms way. To pit kids against each other in a violent match, for all the obvious reasons. I don’t know any good reason for MMA for kids, do we really need something even more designed for pitting kids against each other in a modern gladiator contest. Really, to do that is for the parent(s). It is not fair to say you don't respect parents who will not put their kids in harms way. It isn't fair not to respect parents who argue we have way too much violent stimulus, and violent sports influencing kids already. Who these are they looking out for that don't support MMA for kids, or another violent contact sport?

We need to really need to stress the positive influences and stimulus in kids lives.

[Buck]

I was reading a current MMA magazine. I do follow it like many other people. I read that Elitexc and Elitepro both being MMA entertainment companies are pushing MMA for kids in Los Angeles, CA. school systems in inner-cities, and disadvantage youths. The marketing campaign is to use Bobby Jones and new sign of either being Lombar or Alverez to promote MMA to kids in school. From what I read, they want kids to start young to pool new fighters. Some of the rhetoric is it gives kids a way out of the ghetto. You think kids in the ghettos experience enough violence, then having MMA brough into the schools. Yea, Boxing did wonders for Mike Tyson's criminal record. It kept him out of trouble.

EliteXC (EliteXC and CBS are doing the MMA on primetime) and ElitePro are behind this, do I need to say more.

[Gregory Pinkerton]

From what I read, they want kids to start young to pool new fighters. Some of the rhetoric is it gives kids a way out of the ghetto. You think kids in the ghettos experience enough violence, then having MMA brough into the schools. Yea, Boxing did wonders for Mike Tyson's criminal record. It kept him out of trouble.

Do you know what magazine and issue this was from?

As for Mike Tyson, I don't think Boxing as... a 'martial art' led to his criminal record. If I recall correctly Cus D'Amato was a very strong father figure in his life and his death possibly may have contributed to what led to Tyson's criminal record. Other possible speculations are boxing organizations, his later manager, and his own personal decisions. Or some combination of the above.

So are you stating that boxing or MMA is a possibility of making children commit criminal acts in the future? Or the organizations that run them? What about bad managers/coaches?

I know of one particular individual who I believe has started training at a relatively early age. (Maybe not as a kid, but probably in his early teen years.) From what I've seen he is quite honestly one of the most polite, gentlemen I've ever had the pleasure of meeting.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Phil Wrote:

Some of the rhetoric is it gives kids a way out of the ghetto. You think kids in the ghettos experience enough violence, then having MMA brough into the schools. Yea, Boxing did wonders for Mike Tyson's criminal record. It kept him out of trouble.

False Correalation I believe. If it were true, then you'd see a direct porportion of crime linked to inner city boxing programs. Actually I think you'd see the exact opposite. Any program that provides kids leadership, purpose, meaning, and structure are good. Nothing unique about boxing I think, simply that it gives kids something that they can connect too.

Along that logic, we should close down Seven Eleven Stores as they seem to cause a great deal of robberies.

Again, you seem to equate MMA to violence, which is certainly an opinion you are entitled too, not one everyone shares.

[Al Gutierrez]

As for Mike Tyson, I don't think Boxing as... a 'martial art' led to his criminal record. If I recall correctly Cus D'Amato was a very strong father figure in his life and his death possibly may have contributed to what led to Tyson's criminal record. Other possible speculations are boxing organizations, his later manager, and his own personal decisions. Or some combination of the above.

Whatever happened to the idea of personal responsibility?

I think Mike Tyson, and his decisions alone are responsible for his criminal record. If D'Amato was a "father figure" then Mike not only dishonored and disgraced himself, the organizations, and the sport he represented, he also disrespected D'Amato his legacy and his memory, by his actions. Tyson's behavior was shameful.

Al Gtz.

[Buck]

Kevin,

I think MMA is violent. You are correct, and I agree it is my opinion. Some are more tolerant of violence, their bar for what is violent and what isn't is lower due to over saturation. My bar is high. Especially for kids it is even higherr. Kids don't need to see violence too much of it and too graphic, does effect kids.

My kids and their younger cousins are disturbed by what they see in a MMA fight. All the blood and violence disturbs them, they don't like watching it. I can't help to think what young kid wouldn't be bothered by watching it. I can't help to think what type of teenager would be excited by watching it.

Now CBS and EliteXC put more rules in place to make their fights less brutal, more palatable to the audience. In this case if no blood is drawn, like many boxing matches, then maybe more kids and teenagers will watch it. Or at least make it more kid friendly. That is what is disturbing to me also, the pandering it to a younger audience.

We know why they are maketing it to kids, $$$$$$. If CBS looking to cash in, is successful in toning the violence down to make it tolerable for kids and parents, say PG-13 then you will see toy action MMA figures for pre-teen kids. And other merchandise as well to all age groups of kids. If MMA takes to primetime, then the EliteXC then is building a greater pool to feed the MMA industry that will keep EliteXC in money.

It is all about money. That is unsettling too.

[Buck]

Whatever happened to the idea of personal responsibility?

I think Mike Tyson, and his decisions alone are responsible for his criminal record. If D'Amato was a "father figure" then Mike not only dishonored and disgraced himself, the organizations, and the sport he represented, he also disrespected D'Amato his legacy and his memory, by his actions. Tyson's behavior was shameful.

Al Gtz.

I don't remember the magazine, I read it on the racks yesterday amoung all the other ones. I read at least about 4.

My Tyson comment. Boxing has long unofficially said it is a way out for kids. Maybe in the 1930s it was. Boxing didn't do good by Mike Tyson. He was exploited, and he didn't escape his troubled youth.

Basically, what I am saying MMA isn't really a way out for kids as they promote. The true way out is education. We don't want kids dropping out of highschool because of MMA dreams. It would be better if they finish highschool and got a college degree first. Look at Chuck Liddell, educated first, didn't do MMA as a kid, and he is a top MMA fighter. And if the dream doesn't work, then they have something to fall back on. It isn't fair to the kids or society other sports already do that.

[Buck]

I am not against MMA. I am a fan. I watch it. I have mixed feelings about it.

What I am against is MMA for kids. I see no reason why kids can't wait until they are adults.

Kids are saturated with violence all around them, it is acceptable and the media keeps pushing the envelope. Kids can be expose to violence early on, and their is no restriction to age. Kids can watch a graphic brutal, bloody, high intentsity fight on TV almost at birth. On the other hand kids are not allowed to watch explicted sexual content of an equal graphic nature like that of a MMA fight. We work to prevent out kids from having sex too young, but we allow them to participate in violent sports and activities.
Yes, I pulled the sex card.

I don't think kids really need to have sex as kids or do violent sports; MMA included until they are adults.

If Joe MMA wants to put his kids in MMA fine. It isn't against the law. I can't debate that, it's his kids. It is a different story when you pander it to everyone's kids, especially those kids who don't come from good homes or in a ghetto who may have God awful parents that don't care about their kids because of drug use or other illegal street activity. That is why EliteXC and ElitePro are targeting low income populated public schools. These kids are more suspectable to the MMA marketing, advertising and commerical recruiting going at school! Especially when the companies tell them it is a way out. That is the problem. Not adult MMA.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Phil,

No issue with your position, especiallly as it relates to your own children. I think you and I agree on an individual level concerning what is right and appropriate for our own children. I make many of the same choices you do for mine. In fact, my 8 year old was asking to watch the Indiania Jones movies yesterday. I discussed it with my wife, and he is not ready for them. Another 8 year old might be, but not my son and in my family.

does not mean that I think they should be banned on promote violence or will lead to kids to create acts of violence. Certainly over exposure to constant violence without mindfullness is not healthy. I can't remember how many simulated and real acts of violence the average kid is exposed to, but I agree, it is way too many.

My issue is not with your personal choice, just not equating categorically things like boxing into that category for all.

Same with MMA done and trained properly.

I think they can serve as good links to help our children understand the power of violence and what it really means to use it.

We can't shelter our kids from it.

I am more prone to let my kid (in moderation) participate in martial arts in a gentle and guided fashion and explore this human element...rather than sit in an observer mode and watch it or play it in a video game.

[Ron Tisdale]

It isn't important to me to debate to terms and labels.

But that is all you do. You use labels like "violent" and "MMA" and "society" and "kids". Then, as Kevin said, you use emotional arguements, not logical ones, to present your opinion as the "high ground" (oops, another label). ;) Some (or many) of us just don't buy it.

I asked a question that hasn't been answered. It is a question in my mind that needs to be answered. Critical above any of the rhetoric said here in support of kids doing MMA. I understand why the question of why kids can’t wait until they are 18 has not been answered.

Asked...and answered...

I'm sure many have, and many will. Most of the top competitors in MMA either wrestled, boxed, did TMA, or some other contact sport in their youth. But just like there are jr. wrestling leagues through out the country, there may be jr. MMA leagues. Unless there is a convincing difference between the two, I can't see a logical reason not to have both for the families that choose to participate. Someone brought up a fireman's carry move earlier...I'd been doing that and having it done to me for years as a kid in wrestling. A similar waza exists in judo, and most forms of jujutsu. Kids have been doing [it] on their own in school yard fights for centuries.

Anyhoo, looks like Samurai Jack lives. Oh boy...

Best,
Ron (it shouldn't be hard for the admins on both boards to check the IPs involved)

[edtang]

None of the aforementioned kid's sports permit beating on of a competitor who has been taken to the ground and "mounted". Nor do they permit choking, stomping upon a downed competitor or joint locks intended to submit a competitor.

Ugh.

Stomping is not allowed under the unified rules of MMA. It was allowed in Japan for several years yes, but nowdays it's not allowed there either. Everyone recognized that stomping (and soccer kicking, and up kicks to the head from the ground) take, well, not a whole lot of skill to pull off. So they were banned. You're much more likely to take serious crushing damage to your rib cage from kiddy football than you are in MMA.

Choking, as another poster has mentioned (and me myself mentioned repeatedly), is part of the pre-adult Judo syllabus, as well as joint locks like armbars. (I find the complaints about joint locking fascinating coming from Aikidoka).

Just because you're mounted doesn't mean that the fight is over if you're trained. I spent 15 minutes last night drilling escapes from being mounted. The body mechanics of that are not a whole lot different than Judo newaza or Wrestling. And if it's obvious that the mounted participant isn't able to defend himself, the referee immediately stops it before serious damage occurs. You'd know that if you watch MMA.

Ugh ugh UGH. I forgot why I gave up on this thread and made the mistake of wandering into this vortex of unfounded assumptions.

[Ron Tisdale]

(I find the complaints about joint locking fascinating coming from Aikidoka).

While I basically agree with your post, the sentence above caught my eye. It's not that aikidoka are against joint locks (that would be funny, wouldn't it), it's that scientific evidence suggests that growth plates in young bodies can be damaged by certain activities. Weight lifting at too young an age may be one of those activities. Joint locks when too young may be another. Most aikido programs for youth are VERY carefull in this area, so as not to cause harm to the participants.

But I agree, with the proper safety requirements (refs, work to position and securing the lock then tap, etc) there should be no real impact on MMA any more than in judo, wrestling, etc. I've seen some HORRIFIC accidents in wrestling (had my own shoulder seperated in college)...but I wouldn't ban that either.

Best,
Ron

[edtang]

While I basically agree with your post, the sentence above caught my eye. It's not that aikidoka are against joint locks (that would be funny, wouldn't it), it's that scientific evidence suggests that growth plates in young bodies can be damaged by certain activities. Weight lifting at too young an age may be one of those activities. Joint locks when too young may be another. Most aikido programs for youth are VERY carefull in this area, so as not to cause harm to the participants.


Totally understood. The general sentiment is still odd to me though.


But I agree, with the proper safety requirements (refs, work to position and securing the lock then tap, etc) there should be no real impact on MMA any more than in judo, wrestling, etc. I've seen some HORRIFIC accidents in wrestling...but I wouldn't ban that either.

Best,
Ron

To be honest, the only points in which I got close to seriously hurting myself in BJJ/MMA training was during the wrestling training (to those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, it's the same wrestling you find at a typical Middle/High school in the US), because the falls that one takes in drilling wrestling takedowns can be extremely awkward, fast, and don't lend themselves to Aikido/Judo ukemi easily.

[Ron Tisdale]

Totally understood. The general sentiment is still odd to me though.
The general sentiment of caring for young bodies? ;)

To be honest, the only points in which I got close to seriously hurting myself in BJJ/MMA training was during the wrestling training (to those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, it's the same wrestling you find at a typical Middle/High school in the US), because the falls that one takes in drilling wrestling takedowns can be extremely awkward, fast, and don't lend themselves to Aikido/Judo ukemi easily.

Bingo...I've seen concussions, heard of damage to the spinal column, seen elbows completely hyperextended due to people reaching back as they fall...wrestling can be brutal...

Best,
Ron (and fun as all get out...but still brutal)

[RonRagusa]

Ugh.

Stomping is not allowed under the unified rules of MMA. It was allowed in Japan for several years yes, but nowdays it's not allowed there either. Everyone recognized that stomping (and soccer kicking, and up kicks to the head from the ground) take, well, not a whole lot of skill to pull off. So they were banned. You're much more likely to take serious crushing damage to your rib cage from kiddy football than you are in MMA.

Choking, as another poster has mentioned (and me myself mentioned repeatedly), is part of the pre-adult Judo syllabus, as well as joint locks like armbars. (I find the complaints about joint locking fascinating coming from Aikidoka).

Just because you're mounted doesn't mean that the fight is over if you're trained. I spent 15 minutes last night drilling escapes from being mounted. The body mechanics of that are not a whole lot different than Judo newaza or Wrestling. And if it's obvious that the mounted participant isn't able to defend himself, the referee immediately stops it before serious damage occurs. You'd know that if you watch MMA.

Ugh ugh UGH. I forgot why I gave up on this thread and made the mistake of wandering into this vortex of unfounded assumptions.

First off, let's remember we're talking about children here, not adults.

As to your assertion that kiddie football is more likely to result in rib cage injuries than kiddie MMA I say let's wait until kiddie MMA has been around awhile before making unfounded assumptions regarding comparisons of the two sports.

My reference to joint locks, chokes and the like carried with it the caveat 'intended to submit an opponent.'

Ground and pound should be banned from kiddie MMA, period. There's no reason for it. I've watched plenty of UFC bouts where the referee stops the fight only after the guy on the bottom gets his head caught between elbow and mat or fist and mat many more times than necessary. Even with protective head gear a child's brain and spinal column are going to take more punishment than is healthy. Again, to what end?

That said, I have no objection to kids training in MMA any more than Id object to kids training in any martial art.

With regard to kids competing in MMA fights I'll repeat what I posted to Kevin a while ago:

"I'd like to see the referee be required to stop a match with the successful demonstration of any of the following: full mount, any choke, arm bar, leg bar, heel hook or any triangle involving the head."

Waiting for a tap isn't necessary. By then serious damage can occur that may not be evident until later. What can you possibly object to in erring on the side of caution when kids are involved?

Ron

[edtang]

As to your assertion that kiddie football is more likely to result in rib cage injuries than kiddie MMA I say let's wait until kiddie MMA has been around awhile before making unfounded assumptions regarding comparisons of the two sports.

This is not an unfounded assumption. This is from my from my own experience being tackled hard on a field and training / sparring. I, unlike those of you who haven't done the training, am not making assumptions without the certainty that I know what I'm talking about.

I have no problems with caution. I actually don't really disagree with you fundamentally about erring on the side of caution when it comes to ground and pound or stopping submissions early. However, I vehemently disagree that attaining full mount is the same as getting into perfect position for a triangle or armbar (because sure, yes, that's enough cause to stop things). If you've trained you'd know. It simply isn't. Period.

[edtang]

I hasten to add this caveat to my posts - I'm not 100% sure myself that there should be kid's MMA for exhibition (i'm strongly leaning towards no), even though, like I've said, I feel that it's been blown completely out of proportion. Given the facts (without the sensationalist rhetoric and assumptions), I feel that it's hypocritical to be against it and not against other forms of competitive martial arts / sports practiced with just as high if not higher documented injury incident rates than comparable components of MMA that are commonplace activities. I completely understand and can very much empathize with the viewpoint that kids have no business training in it or doing it if the same standards are applied across the board to other competitive activities. I'm simply not convinced that a kid's elbow joints are any safer in football or wrestling as they are having an armbar applied to them with a referee or coach watching them and stopping it when appropriate. And that's from having had hard falls/tackles with accidents nearly happening and having had dozens of armbars applied to me.

But fundamentally, the discussion about it in the news have been overblown. It's not like the vast majority of state athletic commission would ever allow it (for a mix of many valid or invalid reasons), or the UFC would attempt to legitimize it (they're refusing to consider promoting women's MMA at the moment as it is), and that's totally fine by me.

[dragonteeth]

I think from a woman's perspective it's really hard to understand why someone would not want to teach a young person how to escape a full or half mount, especially a girl. Can you honestly say that you have given any young female adequate self defense training without teaching them how to escape from a down/rape position? Aikido does not lend itself to this very well at all, not that I have seen or heard anyway. Yes, it's great for avoiding getting down on the ground in the first place, but anyone this side of O Sensei can get jumped before they realize it (especially kids). I still think two of the biggest things that this could teach kids are what to do when someone gets you on your back, and how not to freak out when someone is nailing the crap out of you. Those two skills in combination could very well have the power to save someone's life.

Whether you allow a kid to compete in MMA is one thing, but I still think the study of it is definitely something I could support under the right conditions.

[Ron Tisdale]

I'll say this...some of the women's fights on tv were the best I've seen...gutsy, technical, good match ups...too bad there aren;t more of them.

Best,
Ron

[edtang]

I think from a woman's perspective it's really hard to understand why someone would not want to teach a young person how to escape a full or half mount, especially a girl. Can you honestly say that you have given any young female adequate self defense training without teaching them how to escape from a down/rape position? Aikido does not lend itself to this very well at all, not that I have seen or heard anyway. Yes, it's great for avoiding getting down on the ground in the first place, but anyone this side of O Sensei can get jumped before they realize it (especially kids). I still think two of the biggest things that this could teach kids are what to do when someone gets you on your back, and how not to freak out when someone is nailing the crap out of you. Those two skills in combination could very well have the power to save someone's life.

Whether you allow a kid to compete in MMA is one thing, but I still think the study of it is definitely something I could support under the right conditions.

There's a similar discussion happening elsewhere on the Internet today...

I've had first hand experience with some women's self defense instruction, and from a purely physical mechanics standpoint there was some emphasis on training wrist lock escapes (which makes sense) and striking (which I understand the reasoning behind but am less sure about)... but not nearly enough grappling as I see it. After the first few week of Jiu Jitsu drilling mount escapes and armbars/triangles from the guard I thought the exact same thing about it's very pragmatic applicability to women's self defense (I'm aware this isn't unique to BJJ, just speaking from what I know). However, I think I can understand that the very close-in physical element to that training makes a lot of people justifiably uncomfortable.

[Buck]

Phil,

My issue is not with your personal choice, just not equating categorically things like boxing into that category for all.

Same with MMA done and trained properly.



I understand that point and Marc mentioned it as well. I have thought about it. It doesn't seem fair to accept football and reject MMA for kids. But with the current public anger toward incidences of teen violence, I can't see any arguement in favor of MMA for kids to win parents over who have their kids in contact sports or other martial arts. Holding up a mirror in front of these parents isn't going to work. I do see the point you and Marc are making.

[Buck]

Can you honestly say that you have given any young female adequate self defense training without teaching them how to escape from a down/rape position? .

I agree. Kudos. I see the positive elements for women. I think it is great to cross train to cover all your bases for self-defense. Women looking for self-defense need a well rounded program, it is important.

With the popularity of MMA (after all it means different martial arts used) women now have to learn how to deal with that. The mount now has become amore sophisticated attack then what it was before, the elementary school yard bully fighting method. And it is well known by abused women know about the mount as they are pinned on their back or stomach and beaten. Prior to BJJ popularizing the mount, good women's self-defense classes have delt with that. Women always ask what they can do if the guy is on top of them (mount). That is a standard question in women's self-defense classes. I think all woman should know how to deal with the mount, when in a bed, on the floor, in a car by men who are heavier, stronger, bigger, and now who have some training in MMA.