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lbb
03-18-2008, 09:06 PM
Mise en scene: uke and nage are facing the same direction (how they got there is left as an exercise to the student). Both have their inner foot forward. Uke's inner arm is (more or less) extended across nage's inner arm, which is (more or less) extended forward; nage's other arm is on top of uke's arm near the wrist, so nage's two arms act like a lever. Nage extends forward and down, throwing uke, who rolls.

Can anyone tell me what this is called?

TIA,

akiy
03-18-2008, 09:20 PM
Hi Mary,

That sounds like tenbin nage, otherwise also known as hiji nage and mae otoshi. You can find other names by which this technique is known in the AikiWiki:

http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Techniqueschart

Hope that helps,

-- Jun

mickeygelum
03-18-2008, 10:34 PM
Shodokan/Tomiki it is Mae Otoshi....for the descriptive, it is known as " Wind Over The Mountain''.

It is an application on a failed or compromised Shihonage.

Train well,

Mickey

darin
03-19-2008, 01:37 AM
In yoseikan its called tenbin nage.

Bronson
03-19-2008, 02:27 AM
In Seidokan we would probably call it zenpo nage.

Just to add more confusion :D

Bronson

CitoMaramba
03-19-2008, 03:28 AM
In both Nishio Sensei's video and Yamada Sensei's book it is called udekime-nage

Flintstone
03-19-2008, 04:17 AM
It looks like an Aikikai Ude Kime Nage or a Yoseikan Tenbin Nage. But there's a difference in the tenbin arm position...

Aristeia
03-19-2008, 05:21 AM
My old school used to call it juji nage- not to be confused with juji garame

lbb
03-19-2008, 12:25 PM
Thanks, y'all -- ude kime nage it is! I may have heard the name before, I forget, but the best I could come up with last night when sensei asked me was, "That thing where you go like this and then do that." Not very good, I know.

Ron Tisdale
03-19-2008, 12:29 PM
hijiate kokyu nage in Yoshinkan parlance.

The references to ude garame and juji nage are incorrect, at least in yoshinkan, if I read the description correctly. Uke's arms are not inter twined, correct?

Best,
Ron

Flintstone
03-19-2008, 01:42 PM
The references to ude garame and juji nage are incorrect, at least in yoshinkan, if I read the description correctly. Uke's arms are not inter twined, correct?
Right, but notice that tori's and uke's arms form a cross (not in Yoseikan), hence the name juji nage in some styles.

Ron Tisdale
03-19-2008, 02:00 PM
Gotcha, that makes sense.

Best,
Ron

mickeygelum
03-19-2008, 02:03 PM
The references to ude garame and juji nage are incorrect, at least in yoshinkan, if I read the description correctly. Uke's arms are not inter twined, correct?

Ron Tisdale


You are correct, Sir. Also, the same in Shodokan....:D

Aristeia
03-19-2008, 04:15 PM
yeah ron the style I used to train in called this juji nage and the arms entwined version juji garame.

Don_Modesto
03-20-2008, 03:13 PM
I trained in one dojo where it is called SUMI OTOSHI, which I usually understand to mean a throw coming from inside UKE rather than the outside position of NAGE in HIJI NAGE. Anyone else call it this?

akiy
03-20-2008, 03:21 PM
Hi Don,

For me, sumi otoshi in Aikikai parlance targets the inside of the elbow to the outside corner. If nage's inside hand/arm is going under uke's arm while maintaining, basically, the rest of the body-to-body relationship as in sumi otoshi, I've heard this technique called soto musou (外無双). Others may (and probably will) have other terms for the technique, though.

-- Jun

aikidoc
03-20-2008, 04:58 PM
I'd call it ude kime-nage or ude hiji-nage. I have seen some call it kokyu nage.

Aikibu
03-20-2008, 05:54 PM
In both Nishio Sensei's video and Yamada Sensei's book it is called udekime-nage

Concur...Nishio short form Kime-nage...

Kime-nage is Often times an Atemi with Pin then throw executed with an "uncooperative" Uke and can be done "inside of" quite a few techniques...most of them Ai-Hanmi and can be executed with a Bokken or Jo as well.

William Hazen

Aikibu
03-20-2008, 06:06 PM
I thought this vid was a good basic version of Kime-Nage

Enjoy

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qwa4aETVjJY&feature=related

William Hazen

Flintstone
03-20-2008, 07:56 PM
I thought this vid was a good basic version of Kime-Nage

Enjoy

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qwa4aETVjJY&feature=related

William Hazen
I think this way gives uke a good direct kaeshi waza. It's a big no-no in Yoseikan.

Carl Thompson
03-20-2008, 08:14 PM
hijiate kokyu nage in Yoshinkan parlance.

Also heard that used in Iwama. Also tenbin nage in Seifukai (Japanese Yoseikan). Do we have enough names for it yet? :)

Aikibu
03-20-2008, 10:37 PM
I think this way gives uke a good direct kaeshi waza. It's a big no-no in Yoseikan.

I agree... If Nage is dumb enough to execute Kime Nage this way without Atemi and as a stand alone technique.

I think the Sensei was just showing the students what Kime Nage is and the only reason I would teach it this way is as a forward rolling exercise to warm up the class...

I more than likely would put a bokken in Nage's hands too... Just to make sure Uke executed a good forward roll so they don't get thier shins smacked. :)

William Hazen

Flintstone
03-21-2008, 03:26 AM
I more than likely would put a bokken in Nage's hands too... Just to make sure Uke executed a good forward roll so they don't get thier shins smacked. :)
You are evil, Mr. Hazen! :D

charyuop
03-25-2008, 05:00 PM
I think around this technique there is a lot of confusion, or maybe different student of O Sensei gave it different names. My Sensei calls it Sumi Otoshi (I think it can be seen as the Ura version of the more traditional Sumi Otoshi which is clearly Otome).
Talking to my Senpai I told him that I had seen many people calling it Ude Kime Nage, but he said that he had always heard of it as Sumi Otoshi.

sakumeikan
03-26-2008, 03:11 AM
[QUOTE=Mary Malmros;202037]Mise en scene: uke and nage are facing the same direction (how they got there is left as an exercise to the student). Both have their inner foot forward. Uke's inner arm is (more or less) extended across nage's inner arm, which is (more or less) extended forward; nage's other arm is on top of uke's arm near the wrist, so nage's two arms act like a lever. Nage extends forward and down, throwing uke, who rolls.

Can anyone tell me what this is called?
Hello,
From my interpretation of your description it seems to be Juji nage.Juji [cross] x shape] means throwing the partner by forming an x shape on the arm/ with your own arm, then projecting your partner forward.The waza is also called udekemi nage.

Hope this helps, Joe Curran

sakumeikan
03-26-2008, 03:16 AM
Mise en scene: uke and nage are facing the same direction (how they got there is left as an exercise to the student). Both have their inner foot forward. Uke's inner arm is (more or less) extended across nage's inner arm, which is (more or less) extended forward; nage's other arm is on top of uke's arm near the wrist, so nage's two arms act like a lever. Nage extends forward and down, throwing uke, who rolls.

Can anyone tell me what this is called?

TIA,Hello,
Following on from my earlier blog I realise a spelling error.Ude kime nage not as I have earlier written.Just woke up hence the lousy spelling. Cheers, Joe.

charyuop
03-26-2008, 12:36 PM
Now you are messing me up too LOL.
I knew this one is Juji Nage (http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=QkCpjRHY6Rw)

While this one is Ude Kime Nage (http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=gMXSaA7BzwA)

And this is Sumi Otoshi (http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=FR4F8e2-xo4)

(Even tho in our dojo the last 2 are both known as Sumi Otoshi).

mickeygelum
03-26-2008, 02:16 PM
Now you are messing me up too LOL.
I knew this one is Juji Nage (http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=QkCpjRHY6Rw)

While this one is Ude Kime Nage (http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=gMXSaA7BzwA)

And this is Sumi Otoshi (http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=FR4F8e2-xo4)

(Even tho in our dojo the last 2 are both known as Sumi Otoshi).

Mr. Pizzuto, you are absolutely correct....the UdeKimeNage is also called Mae otoshi in other systems, and that is the one that was original described by Ms. Malmros

Asiatic Budoka
03-27-2008, 09:25 AM
Greetings every one, I'm new here but would like to add my 2 cents to the discussion.

Fumio Toyoda Sensei referred to it as sumi otoshi.

Yamada Sensei refers to it as ude kime nage.

Chiba Sensei, from what I understand, refers to it as juji nage.

Hope that helps.

Shareef Muhammad
"In order to change our condition, we must first change our way of thinking...it is actually thought that changes us."

Don_Modesto
03-27-2008, 06:49 PM
For me, PAG trumps all the terminological angst by pointing out that his Jpn students have no a priori knowledge of what a name means even though they are native speakers of the lingua franca of aikido, i.e., it's largely a matter of convention.

rob_liberti
05-18-2008, 11:01 PM
Sorry almost a zombie thread now...

Doesn't sumi otoshi mean sliding and dropping? Can someone explain why this would apply?

Rob

Flintstone
05-19-2008, 03:47 AM
Doesn't sumi otoshi mean sliding and dropping?
It actually means "corner drop".

dalen7
05-19-2008, 11:58 AM
Fumio Toyoda Sensei referred to it as sumi otoshi.

Yamada Sensei refers to it as ude kime nage.

Chiba Sensei, from what I understand, refers to it as juji nage.

In our dojo udekime nage is different than juji nage.
The former is locking the arm and throwing and the latter is more of a neck lock from what i remember from last years seminar.

Udekime nage is required for our 5th kyu test... juji nage for later kyu.

Peace

dAlen

dalen7
05-19-2008, 12:02 PM
Now you are messing me up too LOL.
I knew this one is Juji Nage (http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=QkCpjRHY6Rw)

While this one is Ude Kime Nage (http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=gMXSaA7BzwA)

And this is Sumi Otoshi (http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=FR4F8e2-xo4)

(Even tho in our dojo the last 2 are both known as Sumi Otoshi).

Yes, that is how we do udekime nage.
Doesnt look like how we do juji nage though...however it has been a year since I did that technique.
and Sumi...I dont remember.

Peace

dAlen

senseimike
09-27-2008, 01:39 PM
Sorry to bump and old topic, and also sorry to throw more names into the confusion, but I've always known the original technique to be called Hiji Ate. Just more to swirl around in your head.