Very Disturbing news about Clint George [Archive] - Page 2

Buck

05-04-2008, 02:51 PM

Because of the sensitivity and its impact of a subject of this kind where an adult targets a child for a relationship. And because, I read what I said in quotes and I don't like how it sounds I want to put it in better words.

In better words, I feel girls who are targeted by manipulator abusers are tricked into compliance by the abuser. If a young girl is being manipulated and "groomed" for abuse because they are still growing and developing emotionally, and susceptible emotionally to "grooming" might benefit from understanding that no matter what someone says having a relationship with an older man is wrong for them and will be damaging. If there is trouble at home for such a young girl there are better and safe ways to get what they need then being tricked by some older man to manipulate them into something completely wrong, completely unacceptable for them as young girls.

I am not fooling myself in thinking any preteen or young teen would be reading this thread in Aikido or not. But maybe someone close to them is and will help them avoid a terrible situation in or not in Aikido.

1. There is no reason for a kid being close, spending special time with a Sensei. As much as some Aikido dojos have a family or friendly atmosphere it couldn't include the sensei or others to have close contact with kids, or private/individual contact or attention. No more then what they get in a normal and proper school class room instructional contact. A sensei should never be alone with a child. There should not be a special emotional relationship between kids and the sensei; no big brother/sister or mother/father figure.I think the sensei should never go beyond these types of boundaries. It is for their safety and professionalism. It keeps kids from those who want to target them for abuse. I judge a good sensei who knows the boundaries and doesn't cross them.

2. Parents and dojo community if they notice anything odd should step up to the plate and enforce rules/boundaries that limit the contact a sensei has with a child, and outlines professional behavior of the sensei. If red flages go up the parents and dojo community has a responsibility to intervene.

A friend of mine who studied another art was faced with finding out a high ranking person from another dojo had a sexually a minor during a kumite tournament that her dojo was hosting. Being a kyu rank and being young herself at the time she went to the assistant sensei of her dojo (a Japanese adult who had nothing to do with the incident), and explained the situation. She was told not to say anything to anyone or bring it to the attention of the sensei because it would upset the sensei and the tournament.

Being conditioned to the dojo's protocol and culture, she complied, but was greatly upset. As young as she was, she didn't want to upset the apple cart and have it on her shoulders. That is the feeling she got from the assistant sensei. She couldn't keep that knowledge to herself. She told a few other students(young) the situation and what she was told. The too kept silent. They were young and feared authority. She regretted not telling the sensei, a parent or calling the police.

Years later when she retold the story to a group of us, she wept in guilt. As far as she knows the abuser got away with it. She feels that if she would have said something he wouldn't have had gotten away with it. She feels even after all these years a victim is out there in pain, without justice because she didn't tell someone.

3. Dojo education on how abusers operate and manipulate. Learn the signs. Know what action to take. Know how to prevent and stop abusers. Take the responsibility and spread the word. Education can help avoid a bad dojo as well. Prevention and avoidance is the point.

Partly why abusers get way with what they do is because of silence when the red flags go up. If people are not vigilant, set rules, don't get involved when those flags go up they have abandon their morality and responsibility. No matter how close or important the abuser is. They are making it easy for an abuser if they don't put boundaries and rules in place and take them seriously. It doesn't have to be the target's parents who are the only ones who abandon a child to an abuser.

The dojo might be owned and run by the sensei, it doesn't mean they have a blank check to act unlawfully, immorally, or unethically. For that fact, apply it to anyone else whose a part of the dojo no matter what the rank or involvement.

It isn't hard make a dojo a safe place for everyone and should be a priority of the sensei. It is easy when the dojo comes together and puts up obstacles, boundaries, rules to insure the dojo is a place which will keep abusers out of the dojo. We all have an obligation of everyone to protect children as parents or members of the dojo. By not supporting the means they use to attract and abuse a child by knowing the signs of an abuser to prevent harm, no child in a dojo should be abused. Awareness, education, and vigilance will avoid Hindsight 20/20. A hard place to be when it is too late, a lesson I learned from my friend.

Buck

05-04-2008, 03:06 PM

There is a whole bunch of energy put it to the aftermath of the situation of abuse.

It might be helpful to put out info that will help avoid and prevent, expose a pedophile. Oh yea, and help people identify what type of child a pedophile is looking for in a complete info package.

gdandscompserv

05-04-2008, 03:47 PM

It might be helpful to put out info that will help avoid and prevent, expose a pedophile. Oh yea, and help people identify what type of child a pedophile is looking for in a complete info package.
Good luck.

CitoMaramba

05-05-2008, 08:23 AM

Despite this, from what I have read, "compensated dating (http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/men/name_brand_beauties_on_sale.htm)" (enjo kosai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enjo_k%C5%8Dsai)) between school-age girls and older men is quite common in Japan. Harsher forms of teenage prostitution also exist in in India (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2008/04/14/noindex/wvirgin113.xml) and elsewhere in Asia (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D01E4D91139F937A25757C0A960958260&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=1).

Child prostitution is in the West as well:

U.S. 'sex culture' driving child prostitution (http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=77444)

UK 'has 5,000 child prostitutes' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6960232.stm)

Charles

05-05-2008, 09:21 AM

Good luck.It's easier than you might think. When I'm not on the mat I'm a youth worker in my Church. In order to work with any child or youth we have to undergo a background check and a day's worth of training around this issue. And the training has to be re-done every five years.

We joke that the training is about how to not get caught and I've been through good sessions and bad. But the first was very good and helpful. Aside from the rules of the road we were taught some things to look for in both the victimizer and the victim. And we were taught how to comply with the required reporting laws in our state.

It was all very helpful but the single most important part is that no adult should be left alone with an un-related child.

lbb

05-05-2008, 10:20 AM

I agree with you Mary that probably no child of 13 has the life experience to enter into an informed relationship with an adult. They need to be protected by whatever means we can afford them.

Actually, that wasn't what I said. I said that the inability to give informed consent is the rationale behind age of consent laws. This may sound like a picking of nits, but it isn't.

gdandscompserv

05-10-2008, 02:10 PM

I found this interesting:
http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/may1998/kids-m16.shtml

reisler

05-15-2008, 02:38 PM

It was all very helpful but the single most important part is that no adult should be left alone with an un-related child.

or even (sometimes) related......:grr:

Marc Kupper

07-09-2008, 01:04 PM

It appears Clint George still has issues with setting and recognizing boundaries. See http://www.helenair.com/articles/2008/07/09/local/80lo_080709_aikido.txt

The article says he used to own Last Chance Aikido implying it's been turned over to others.

jennifer paige smith

07-09-2008, 01:09 PM

Innocence Lost. On many accounts.

B.J.M.

07-09-2008, 03:43 PM

Wow.

I met Mr. George in Shingu, Japan when my previous teacher was doing research for a book on O-Sensei.

Nice guy.

It is heart breaking to hear this though. It is painfully obvious that Mr. George needs to be seeing a professional and immediately. He needs serious assistance.

Keith Larman

07-09-2008, 05:07 PM

Astounding. That about puts the last nail in that coffin... Gonna be really hard for him to put on any defense for the first charges he's out on bond for now.

Sad, sad, sad.

dragonteeth

07-09-2008, 09:46 PM

Mark Uttech

07-10-2008, 04:03 AM

Good grief!

In gassho,

Mark

Mary Eastland

07-10-2008, 06:14 AM

Okay, I have to ask the stupid question. Since the initial arrest, the girl has had contact with him not once, not twice, but four times. Where in the name of Heaven are her parents? Of all the times in the world to become overprotective, having a child in this situation with the accused abuser out on bond is definitely the right time!

I hear you....and having raised 2 female offspring... I know that 13 can be a difficult age to know where your children are at every moment. Teenagers can be very determined to live their own will.

Mary

aikidoc

07-10-2008, 08:21 AM

A very concerning situation to say the least. Sad. It makes one wonder if there are other casualties that we do not know about. Has this been the only incident?

Dewey

07-10-2008, 09:44 AM

It is my sincere hope that those active members of this forum who happen to have the ear of any Aikikai shihans here in the US to impress upon them the urgency of "suggesting" to Hombu Dojo to take the important & necessary gesture of formally revoking Clint George's rank. I believe Saito Sensei did as such with another individual some years ago under very similar circumstances. Just my opinion.

akiy

07-10-2008, 10:01 AM

Hi folks,
It is my sincere hope that those active members of this forum who happen to have the ear of any Aikikai shihans here in the US to impress upon them the urgency of "suggesting" to Hombu Dojo to take the important & necessary gesture of formally revoking Clint George's rank.
Before we start impressing upon such actions to such people (if we start doing so at all), I think people might want to wait until the verdict of the law is passed upon Clint. Despite all of the evidence given to us by the Helena Independent Record, he has not, to my knowledge, been convicted of any crimes.

Please note that I in no way condone the type of actions reported to us by the Helena Independent Record that Clint may have taken. However, I need to make sure that this thread nor this website does not turn into any sort of place for "character assassination." According to the law, Clint is still innocent until proven guilty.
I believe Saito Sensei did as such with another individual some years ago under very similar circumstances. Just my opinion.
The case to which you are referring is an interesting one. I believe that all charges were dropped against the person in question, but the person's rank was still revoked.

Best regards,

-- Jun

lbb

07-10-2008, 10:59 AM

Um, yeah, what Jun said. Particularly in light of the other case cited. Certainly it doesn't look at all good for Clint George, but a damning appearance is still not the same as guilt.

bkedelen

07-10-2008, 11:00 AM

Keith Larman

07-10-2008, 11:08 AM

Not to make the situation more complicated, but as someone who lived in Helena for 18 years, I can assure everyone here that the Helena Independant Record is something of an inside joke to Helena residents. Even though it is the city paper, it is held in the lowest regard as a source of factual and/or well researched information.

That may be the case, but this sort of reporting of easily researched factual information (person A arrested while on bond for offense B) is a gold mine for lawsuits. What they cover, how they choose to cover it (or not), etc. may all be a joke. But this sort of thing isn't often gotten wrong in even the worst of papers.

If you simply remove everything but factual statements we will have him arrested for felony sexual assault an additional time with the same victim.

And in the that other "famous" case, no, no verdicts were ever reached. But the allegations of sexual abuse went back for years with multiple victims. There were all sorts of legal reasons apparently why he was not convicted. However, there was no doubt left that he had a slew of victims in his wake...

Of course wait for any sort of thing like revocation/hamon until things work themselves out.

But it is still pretty damning at this point.

jennifer paige smith

07-10-2008, 11:20 AM

Not to make the situation more complicated, but as someone who lived in Helena for 18 years, I can assure everyone here that the Helena Independant Record is something of an inside joke to Helena residents. Even though it is the city paper, it is held in the lowest regard as a source of factual and/or well researched information.

Thanks for the info, Benjamin.
Yet, somehow, that isn't the slightest bit reassuring.

And so as not to come across as a simple contrarian ( for I am a complicated contrarian), one can't simply trust what they read. And since we aren't, as an online community, advocating any kind of action toward the defendant, legally or professionally, it is reasonable to discuss and consider all the information at hand. Including how aikido communities have delt with this before, what are potential legal ramifications, what kind of pro-active moves we can make in our own homes and dojos, how to promote aiko (loving protection) in our members, and how we feel when this topic comes up.

This kind of conversation reassures me.

bkedelen

07-10-2008, 11:33 AM

I am not telling anyone what conclusions to draw, simply providing some potentially pertinent information.

Aikido4all

07-10-2008, 11:50 AM

What disturbs me the most -even more the the topic on hand- is what everyone is saying. What has given you all permission to make assumptions and justifications of Mr. George's actions? Especially since all the information you have has come from the Helena Independent Record! I have read over all the posts... all of them... and I have to say; I am fairly disappointed in the Aikido community and how they are handling this.
Revoking his rank?!? We all know how hard and how much sweat and tears we must put into our training. We all have experienced difficulties, mistakes, and... the mistakes of others. What would give us authority to talk -or think- of revoking rank? The love of Aikido is all that matters... not the rank the holder has.
Do not slam or look down upon Clint George. He has helped all of us in one way or another... even if it was just by sharing his love for Aikido. He supported you. Now, it is your turn to support him. I am not saying that his actions were right. But, lets not make opinions on his morale and motives, until we get actual, factual information.
---Rebecca
:::Failure is the key to success; each mistake teaches us something.- Morihei Ueshiba:::

Ron Tisdale

07-10-2008, 01:06 PM

What has given you all

a)permission to make

b)assumptions and

c)justifications of Mr. George's actions?

d)Especially since all the information you have has come from the Helena Independent Record!

a) No one. No permission required in a free society. I will speak my mind where I see fit.

b) I haven't made any. I've stuck with the facts presented, and where warrented, even changed my opinion about related issues.

c) I haven't made any. Those that did were appropriately taken to task, in my opinion. They had the right to speak, and we had the right to object.

d) Quite a few of us have been privy to other information. But you wouldn't know, since you didn't ask.

Best,
Ron

Dewey

07-10-2008, 01:17 PM

Hi folks,

Before we start impressing upon such actions to such people (if we start doing so at all), I think people might want to wait until the verdict of the law is passed upon Clint. Despite all of the evidence given to us by the Helena Independent Record, he has not, to my knowledge, been convicted of any crimes.

Please note that I in no way condone the type of actions reported to us by the Helena Independent Record that Clint may have taken. However, I need to make sure that this thread nor this website does not turn into any sort of place for "character assassination." According to the law, Clint is still innocent until proven guilty.

The case to which you are referring is an interesting one. I believe that all charges were dropped against the person in question, but the person's rank was still revoked.

Best regards,

-- Jun

I sincerely apologize, Jun...and to all, for my comment. This issue hits a bit too close to home for me (see my earlier posts in this thread)...and it just got the better of me. I formally retract my statement.

Um, yeah, what Jun said. Particularly in light of the other case cited. Certainly it doesn't look at all good for Clint George, but a damning appearance is still not the same as guilt.

Yes, Mary, you're right. I find myself jumping to conclusions when I shouldn't. Again, my apologies to all.

Michael Hackett

07-10-2008, 03:20 PM

Meeting privately with your alleged victim several times while out on bail is often referred to by the legal community as "felony stupid"!

Marc Kupper

07-10-2008, 04:23 PM

Thanks for the info, Benjamin.
Yet, somehow, that isn't the slightest bit reassuring.

And so as not to come across as a simple contrarian ( for I am a complicated contrarian), one can't simply trust what they read. And since we aren't, as an online community, advocating any kind of action toward the defendant, legally or professionally, it is reasonable to discuss and consider all the information at hand. Including how aikido communities have delt with this before, what are potential legal ramifications, what kind of pro-active moves we can make in our own homes and dojos, how to promote aiko (loving protection) in our members, and how we feel when this topic comes up.

This kind of conversation reassures me.

The reassuring to me part is that we don't have this conversation very often. For the most part it seems either potential trouble sources are spotted and weeded out and/or that they are very rare to start with. One troubling aspect is that it seems with each of the dojo related abuse situations I've heard about that there were long standing situations that at least made people uncomfortable. People may not have known exactly what was happening but could tell that something was amiss. Adults are usually better at locating a third party, aikiweb's anonymous forum (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=52) comes to mind, to at least sound out "does this seem right?" Children and teenagers seem to have or know of fewer resources. I'll have to ask around with some friends who'd know about this sort of thing about if there are things we can do to improve the chances of a child or adult coming forward with their concerns while also not triggering Salem style witch hunts.

Marc

aikidoc

07-10-2008, 04:24 PM

Um, yeah, what Jun said. Particularly in light of the other case cited. Certainly it doesn't look at all good for Clint George, but a damning appearance is still not the same as guilt.

Very true. However, being caught in her presence again without other adult supervision definitely shows concern about a lack of judgement. Not a good move.

jennifer paige smith

07-11-2008, 11:29 AM

The reassuring to me part is that we don't have this conversation very often. For the most part it seems either potential trouble sources are spotted and weeded out and/or that they are very rare to start with. One troubling aspect is that it seems with each of the dojo related abuse situations I've heard about that there were long standing situations that at least made people uncomfortable. People may not have known exactly what was happening but could tell that something was amiss. Adults are usually better at locating a third party, aikiweb's anonymous forum (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=52) comes to mind, to at least sound out "does this seem right?" Children and teenagers seem to have or know of fewer resources. I'll have to ask around with some friends who'd know about this sort of thing about if there are things we can do to improve the chances of a child or adult coming forward with their concerns while also not triggering Salem style witch hunts.

Marc

I appreciate your thoughts and post.
Your springing off of the word, reassuring, is poetically reasonable but out of previous context. No biggie.

In my classes I outline for students who to go to when having uncomfortable situations with dojo members. This is includes someone other than me if they are having a problem when it comes to me. Helps everybody stay clean.

Dan Rubin

07-11-2008, 03:19 PM

Clint George has lost his dojo and his reputation. I'm guessing that, for him, that is everything. Now he's met several times with the same victim, in the same community, in public; self-destructive behavior, certainly.

Meeting privately with your alleged victim several times while out on bail is often referred to by the legal community as "felony stupid"!

It's only "felony stupid" if you don't want to be caught.

Michael Hackett

07-11-2008, 04:51 PM

Dan,

Are you suggesting that this was a figurative suicide by cop? You think he wanted to get caught? I've certainly seen stranger behavior.

Dan Rubin

07-11-2008, 05:03 PM

Michael

That is my thought, that he wants to be stopped and he wants to be punished, and that if the State won't do it soon, he might do it to himself.

This is just conjecture on my part. I have no expertise in sex crimes and I don't know Clint George, but, like you, I've seen plenty of self-destructive behavior that's dismissed as stupidity.

Dan

Ellis Amdur

07-11-2008, 06:07 PM

As always, the caveat. I am not commenting specifically on C. George's reported/alleged behavior.
The nature of some perpetrators is astonishing, and can include a number of components.
1. Compulsiveness - for some, the behavior seems to fall in the obsessive-compulsive spectrum. Consider someone who has a compulsion to cleanse their hands from the bacteria they are convinced must be on their hands. Despite evidence to the contrary - and DESPITE knowing it is not true, they will washing their hands over and over until they've scrubbed the skin off. For some individuals, the desire for the victim-chosen sexual activity - is so compelling and it's deprivation so anxiety producing that they will pursue the activity despite the consequences.
2. Some research shows that many molestors of children could be termed "sectored sociopaths." What I mean by this is that within the realm of molestation of children, they function just like a psychopath (different word, same meaning), even though, unlike the classic sociopath, this doesn't "leak" out in the rest of their lives. One hallmark of this is called "duping delight." what this means is that the biggest thrill is doing the crime under other's eyes. Examples are a man - a church youth leader - who successfully molested a child in the back seat of the car that the parents were driving. Another is a man who successfully molested a child in the waiting room of a court while waiting for his sentencing for a sex crime. There is the added delight of being so powerful that one can manipulate the victim, once again, under everyone's eyes. "I can make him/her do whatever I want."
Coupled is duping delight is the sociopath's grandiosity. Fundamentally narcissistic (the only thing that matters is me and I'm the most special person in the universe), the individual truly believes he's smart enough to get away with the crime, and others too stupid to catch him.
I think of a case I was involved in - a father molested his daughter from age two, the child disclosing at age four. he terrorized her. (Long story, details unnecessary). During his first interview with the detectives, he said, "You know, all these clothes we have on are barriers. You with your suits and guns - it puts you at a distance from me. Tell you what - we should take off all our clothes and do this naked." BTW - he was not successfully convicted, though all parental rights, at least, were terminated.
So, in essence, you have several poles. "I gotta have it." to "I CAN have it."
And the terrible truth is that the success rate is high enough that the grandiosity and confidence is merited. The skilled perp is able to manipulate the child so that he or she "volunteers" more contact - using a variety of strategies.
Concluding caveat - compulsive behavior and sociopathy are NOT diminished capacity. Such traits cannot and should not be considered "illnesses" that make the person not responsible for what they do.
Final component - stalking. there are various types of stalkers. Sociopaths, who do it for the pleasure of the terror they create - (rare, but real). Relational - inadequate persons who cannot accept that the person broke off with them, because they conceive of themselves only in context of that relationship Psychotic - a delusion that the person is their Obsessional - the person fixates on another person, and any evidence to the contrary is discounted or ignored. Apparently, the obsessive stalker has many of the same components of their brain activated that an animal does in stalking - fixed attention, and ignoring of extraneous details that would distract from the hunt. (Cats, for example, are functionally deaf at the moment of final stalk before attack. The brain shuts off the auditory nerves).

lifeafter2am

07-11-2008, 06:23 PM

Ellis,

I would like to see your research to show that some molesters fall into the obsessive-compulsive spectrum? Is there research to support this case or is this mearly conjecture on your part? While this seems interesting I have not seen any research in this area.

Also, and this is just personal, I hate the terms psychopath and sociopath .... I have yet to see any professional association (APA etc) come out with any literature that operationally defines these terms. Could you point me in a direction to show me otherwise?

:)

(FYI, I am doing my Thesis work right now for my PhD in Psychology, hence my research focus)

Ellis Amdur

07-11-2008, 06:57 PM

"seems to fall..." in other words, looks like. I want to be clear that I am not equating OCD - the clinical dx - with the compulsive behaviors of some sexual predators." However, I would recommend the work of Anna Salter in this area. Listed on the book list on my website.
I, on the other hand, LOVE the term psychopath, because the equivocations of Anti-social personality disorder do not do justice whatsoever to the behaviors of the individuals. The APA is at least a decade behind current research. It is my understanding that the next version of the DSM will have a psychopathic subset to anti-social personality disorder (this latter term is, in essence, a criminal - whereas the psychopath, be they the serial killer or the corporate raider like Ken Lay, is something quite different).

I'm on the road, so don't have my library close at hand. But the best work on psychopaths is that of Robert Hare. Hare is able to show, thru a fascinating exam with a PET scan a brain organization in children as young as four years old that is uniquely psychopathic (in short, the individual remains in the visual cortex, no matter how violent or pathological the images they are exposed to, whereas the non-psychopath shifts to limbic system reactivity when exposes to horrible images).
The terms psychopath and sociopath reflect a debate of nature vs. nurture, where the reality is that it is both. So the terms, for most, are synonymous. The controversial Lykken, however, uses psychopath for those who seem born that way, and sociopath for those primarily a product of a pathological culture/environment.
P.S. This is a brief response to your questions. The thread could easily get hijacked - so if you would like more discussion in this vein, feel free to PM

lifeafter2am

07-11-2008, 07:50 PM

Buck

07-11-2008, 11:35 PM

Among the many communicative exchanges we have with people through out our lives at different places, different time periods, under a myriad of situations and conditions we hear but often don't listen. Because we don't listen we lose the ability to communicate effectively, we lose our awareness to communicate. We lose focus and all the details and all the senses are ignored and we pull into to listen to our internal thoughts shuting off the external world. We block out what we are hearing because we are not interested, or a word is said the hurls us into that space of conscience, or it takes us by surprise. We don't pick up one subtle clues buried in the conversation, the body language or gestures that help us communicate better. We zone out.

How long we zone out on something carring on with our own internal dialog when we should really be paying attention varies, but what is really more of a concern is when purposely don't want to communicate and choose to zone out ignoring the clues and the gestures. When we are awaken out of our slumber we are shock, or it is business as usual we listen for a moment to check if we are able to fall back into our slumber.

Clint George isn't the only guilty one here.

Concerning the victim, a young girl who has some that listens, who (as she interprets) pays attention, communicates, offers to her (as she sees it) things she is lacking that she should be getting else where, like feeling safe, being protected, taken seriously, loved. That is a strong bonding agent to get what you need emotionally if you are lacking it. There is too many to count ways and reasons for it happening. When such a bond is formed, and it is usually an normally in an acceptable way like a person her initial age as a first crush or love it is very powerful, so powerful many incidences (normal that it) some people go to there grave still crushing, still loving that first person. Humans are suspectable to first impressions made upon them for better or worse, for survival too. These impressions can be things like a first love or relationship or a tragic event, or image etc. And if we see it as positive impression we cling it, we see it out, at all costs, either blind to all the signs if it is negative, or have not developed enough to know what the signs are.

If we are not developed enough to understand the dynamic that a negative impression exists often masked in a positive impression we then are more vulnerable misinterpreting the situation or the dynamic at a face value positive when the negative impression is misleading, masked in as a positive impression. The need is so great for the positive experience which is held up as a screen, and if held up over a long period of time, it is almost impossible in a short period of time to correct the situation.

What is most troubling. The individual(s) who put up bond- more than likely out of hope, and for innocent until proven guilty in a fair trial, convinced out of good will- find out guilt the hard way. How devastating to those individuals.

What I think would be most devastating to Clint George would be the young girl realizing through the result of maturity realizes that she too has been had, and moves on to truly gets what she needs and deserves in a healthy manner. That she sees that the flame she is drawn to is deadly and it isn't the type of light she should be drawn too.

Sadly it seems she has no one to guide her, or no one strong enough to prevent her from meeting Clint George.

Agreed, if religions of thousands of years old practice can't do it, turn evil into good, what makes us think Aikido can do it. There is no psychological evaluation process from the start in Aikido to i.d. those who will are not good people, a who are- in some cases you can tell of the bat those who are not decent people, but those like Clint George are much tougher to i.d. they work to gain everyone's trust, and respect. Therefore, can they work undetected, unnoticed, and in secrecy. This is what makes it more painful.

Marc Kupper

07-12-2008, 01:15 AM

Clint George isn't the only guilty one here.
I strongly disagree with that. When it comes to adult/child relationships the responsibility is *very* much on the adult and even more so when the adult is in a position of authority such as a martial arts instructor.

Buck

07-12-2008, 09:06 AM

You're right. I should have explained that better. If the young girl is going back to meet him, no blame on her like I explained already, it shows others not her who are co- guilty by enabling the tragic situation to continue. She has been greatly impressed and fooled into thinking/feeling such a relationship is true, real, and pure. It is something she believes is right. She does need that, she needs the right impression and proper resulting relationship having her needs, properly fulfilled and not by someone unbalanced 4-5 times her age. Someone isn't properly attending to make sure that young girl moves to the understanding the situation where Clint George took advantage and exploited her is extremely wrong. If she is still having contact with Clint George someone is guilty as well.

Buck

07-12-2008, 11:31 PM

Really, at this point I can't see how anyone can be neutral or give the benefit of doubt to Clint George. My previous criticism of the media being inaccurate at the start imply guilt still stand, but the recent article even in its inaccuracy, it can't be completely off base. There is some pretty heavy truth to the article. I am waiting for the trial to take place to get a accurate and complete picture, before I take a final stand.

It is hard to watch someone who presented themselves in a likable and positive manner and yet have a whole otherside to them.

Clint George isn't the only guilty one, like those who are enablers to the crime. Those people who never cared to pick up on the clues and the signs of what was happening, those who saw and did nothing, but ignore the situation because of who he was etc. All of those who assisted him directly and indirectly to continue his exploits of a innocent child are guilty.

The young child isn't the only victim. There are those who he hide from and they became victims too. The ones he fooled well, the ones he manipulated and exploited too. The ones who trusted him out of their good nature and love. Clint George by seeing the child after he was told not to indicates his single disregarding focus for anyone but himself and his own needs.

He didn't get Aikido, he lied about it. He pretended and fool those close to him, those who love and respected him. He learned nothing from Aikido, and he taught nothing to his students but a lie. I will say he defrauded many. I will not get into what he has done to his family.

George S. Ledyard

07-14-2008, 01:06 AM

The case to which you are referring is an interesting one. I believe that all charges were dropped against the person in question, but the person's rank was still revoked.

Best regards,

-- Jun

Actually, no charges were filed. The parents of two girls who had been molested went to the police when they found out what had happened. It was two years, if I remember correctly, after the incidents in question. That fact, coupled with the fact that the two girls were friends caused the police to hesitate about filing charges because they didn't feel the case was strong enough.

When the Aikido community was contacted by the parents, a meeting was held to discuss things and it turned out that there were a number of other victims, all mutually unaware of each other. These abuses had gone on for ten years. Several times he had been found out, but in each case he had been able to talk his way out by admitting to a momentary lapse and promising that nothing like it would ever happen again. His lofty position as the senior American student of one of Aikido's great Sensei's caused people to cut him slack which they never would have done for someone else.

So the perpetrator had his Aikido career ruined but did not do jail time and now works for a corporation which gives him opportunity to travel overseas. I heard he especially like the trips to Thailand...

Misogi-no-Gyo

07-14-2008, 08:54 AM

Perfect post which goes a long way to prove the maxim (of my own creation) "Stupidity runs in circles"

Really, at this point I can't see how anyone can be neutral or give the benefit of doubt to Clint George.

"...Anyone...?" It's called patience and the ability to separate oneself from the emotional attachment to judging another when it is not our job to do so.

...I am waiting for the trial to take place to get a accurate and complete picture, before I take a final stand.

Apparently, not.

It is hard to watch someone who presented themselves in a likable and positive manner and yet have a whole other side to them.

Who do you think you know well enough to say that everyone (unlike yourself, of course) is any different?

Clint George isn't the only guilty one...

You have proved yourself absolutely correct!

The ones he fooled well, the ones he manipulated and exploited too. The ones who trusted him out of their good nature and love. Clint George by seeing the child after he was told not to indicates his single disregarding focus for anyone but himself and his own needs.

You seem very attached. Unhealthily so, in fact.

He didn't get Aikido, he lied about it. He pretended and fool those close to him, those who love and respected him. He learned nothing from Aikido, and he taught nothing to his students but a lie. I will say he defrauded many. I will not get into what he has done to his family.

...all I can say is, "WOW!" Perhaps, you should turn in your belt, and dogi and give up martial arts immediately. I do believe there is an opening in the priesthood now that Warren Jeffs is otherwise, detained. The world needs another prophet right about now, given how far from perfect we all are.

Oh, by the way... what was it that you learned from Aikido, again? Better yet, "From who have you been learning Aikido?

.

akiy

07-14-2008, 10:08 AM

Hi folks,

Let's please stay away from personal discussions. Thank you.

-- Jun

giriasis

07-14-2008, 11:08 AM

I'm sorry Ledyard Sensei, but I would like to address some points with what you just posted. Just to let you know, for that past 2.5 years I have been working at a law firm that specializes in representing childhood victims of sexual abuse - so I'm just not pulling my comments from out of the air.

I'm also stating this with the usual caveats...opinion is being expressed, but not legal opinion. All facts referenced are alleged facts and I am not referring to the current person at the topic of this thread because I do not know all the facts in this current case. (I can only guess based upon my experience though.) (But Jun, I ask that you keep this comment in this thread.)

Actually, no charges were filed. The parents of two girls who had been molested went to the police when they found out what had happened. It was two years, if I remember correctly, after the incidents in question. That fact, coupled with the fact that the two girls were friends caused the police to hesitate about filing charges because they didn't feel the case was strong enough.

Two years from the time of incident? That's no big deal actually. I don't think that would have been beyond the statute of limitations -- even in criminal law. And in many states, the statute of limitaitons is tolled until three years AFTER the victim reaches the age of majority - 18 years old. Depending on the year the two girls came forward, this may have been the case.

And, just because the police didn't file a report doesn't mean the abuse didn't happen. The police didn't file a report because they called into question the girls credibility. However, there should not have been a problem with their credibility as I discuss in my next comment.

When the Aikido community was contacted by the parents, a meeting was held to discuss things and it turned out that there were a number of other victims, all mutually unaware of each other. These abuses had gone on for ten years. Several times he had been found out, but in each case he had been able to talk his way out by admitting to a momentary lapse and promising that nothing like it would ever happen again.

Since members of the aikido community had found out several times over the previous 10 years they knew about the pattern of behaviour and when "these two girls" came forward the aikido community should have known better and charges should have been filed. They had the responsibility to report this known behavior to the police that this has happened before -- several times. Those facts in addition to the two girls coming foward should have given the police the grounds to file a report. It is truly unfortunate that a report was never filed.

I also feel this way for the following reasons -- I allege that since the school failed in its duties to protect these two girls and that because he has never been arrested or charged he is not on any sexual predator registries. And so as a result the community at large (not just the aikido community) is still not on notice that this particular person is a sexual predator. You see, the abuse can still happen. And given the repeat history, I am of the opinion that it most likely has and will happen again.

His lofty position as the senior American student of one of Aikido's great Sensei's caused people to cut him slack which they never would have done for someone else.

This should be a lesson to us all -- that no one is beyond reproach and just because someone is a sensei, priest, teacher -- well known or respected otherwise they should not be cut some slack.

Do you realize that the perpetrators are using this trust against you? That the trust that was violated was not just the trust between the student and the sensei but the sensei and the dojo; the sensei and his aikido organization; and the sensei and the greater aikido community.

So the perpetrator had his Aikido career ruined but did not do jail time and now works for a corporation which gives him opportunity to travel overseas. I heard he especially like the trips to Thailand...

I feel no sympathy for the perpetrator's aikido career, especially when people in his community KNEW ABOUT IT for over ten years. And these were not false claims because these claims were apparently validated when he admitted to it and promised not to do it again. Other people did not ruin it. The several victims who came forward over a ten year period did not ruin it. The "two girls" who came forward did not ruin it. Those who kicked him out of his organization did not ruin it. He did that to himself.

The lives that are ruined are the victims. Now, they will suffer and have to seek out psychological treatment for the rest of their lives. Some suffer so badly that they commit suicide or worse continue the cycle of violence and become abusers themselves - emotional, physical and, yes, sexual.

***********

Please folks, I implore you, no sensei, teacher, instructor, assistant instructor, Priest, Pastor, Minister, Rabbi, Imam, Monk, yogi, guru, other spiritual leaders, youth group leader, or any person in good standing in any community is beyond reproach.

Sexual Abusers are not creepy looking monsters lurking in dark allies. Unfortunately, they lurk in your churches, schools and dojos posing as the really nice priest that comes to your house for dinner, as the teacher that all the kids love and as the well-respected sensei of the of the dojo.

Just like self-defense -- you just have to be vigilant and aware not paranoid. Trust your instincts, if you think something "not right" is going on then pay attention and ask some questions. If you know something is wrong notify someone in authority (at the dojo, call an abuse hot line, call dept. children and families and call law enforcement). And finally, if a student/child comes forward please do not dismiss them. Investigate and do what needs to be done.

Buck

07-14-2008, 07:49 PM

Please folks, I implore you, no sensei, teacher, instructor, assistant instructor, Priest, Pastor, Minister, Rabbi, Imam, Monk, yogi, guru, other spiritual leaders, youth group leader, or any person in good standing in any community is beyond reproach.

Sexual Abusers are not creepy looking monsters lurking in dark allies. Unfortunately, they lurk in your churches, schools and dojos posing as the really nice priest that comes to your house for dinner, as the teacher that all the kids love and as the well-respected sensei of the of the dojo.

Just like self-defense -- you just have to be vigilant and aware not paranoid. Trust your instincts, if you think something "not right" is going on then pay attention and ask some questions. If you know something is wrong notify someone in authority (at the dojo, call an abuse hot line, call dept. children and families and call law enforcement). And finally, if a student/child comes forward please do not dismiss them. Investigate and do what needs to be done.

Worth repeating

BKeesler

07-22-2008, 04:35 PM

Lets look at this from a perspective I have to yet to see posted.. and that is of a parent. First off I am not a learned scholar, I don't have multiple PhD's after my name hell I'm not even well read. What I am though is a devoted loving caring father of 4 three girls and boy, ages 16,12,4,17months respectively. So when someone posts that it is presumably more acceptable)for a 40yr old man to seduce and coerce a 16yr old child into a sexual relationship than a 13yr old makes me want to vomit! ("if she were 16 would we even be talking about this"God forbid if this were to happen to one of my children, they would have to lock me up for his safety. I don't know this man nor do I care to, I don't care if he was gods gift to the martial arts world, the president of the united states, or found the cure for cancer by his very actions both prior to his arrest and after are inexcusable and haneous. By his own admission he sexually assaulted this girl by fondling her and this is reprehensable behavior. What's sad is just how common this is, its sad that a show like To Catch a Predator could be run every day 365 and not have a rerun and what's worse is that scum bags in Thailand and Asia black-market children to sick bastards and dont't think twice about it. Do I sound outraged to you? Well I am and so should you! If you have kids when you tuck them in to bed tonight and give them a kiss and let them know that they are safe that mommy and daddy's here imagine what it would be like if what happened to this girl and millions of other girls and boys around the world every day happened to your loved one. I bet you would want to rip his still beating heart from his chest and if you don't then shame on you. I am certain that this will anger many of you so be it I don't really care. what is sad is that your anger and outrage should be pointed at those that prey on children maybe not yours but your cousins, your sisters/brothers, hell even your best friends kids because they are out there. They are on the net, in your stores, churches,dojos they are the ones closest to you and your child. Be alert and be careful and above all watch over your children like their life depends on it because it does.

The record speaks for it self:

On Saturday, a search warrant of George’s Helena home was executed. His phone and computer were seized.

Police found 85 emails exchanged between the two.

The content of the emails and times they are being written related to the ages of the individuals involved did appear to be inappropriate,” court documents note.

During an interview Saturday, George told police that the relationship with his student of two years started with hugging and “petting” and had progressed in the last three months, the documents say. The two began inappropriately touching each other through their clothes, he told police

Say it again 85EMAILS I dont email my own kids that much or even my wife of 18 yrs. Remember when you first started dating your significant other.............HMMM sounds about right doesnt it

And again the legal documents presented before the judge have him admiting to inappropriately touching each other through their clothes which we all know would have only escalted had he not been arrested.

My daddy always told me "Son now matter how its dressed if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck its a duck"!

Massimo Maddaloni

07-23-2008, 04:55 PM

Well, fellows aikidoka, do a search for:

aikido
missoula
George
girl

There are news. There's no such a thing as too much zanshin. Regards
Massimo Maddaloni

jennifer paige smith

07-23-2008, 05:13 PM

Well, fellows aikidoka, do a search for:

aikido
missoula
George
girl

There are news. There's no such a thing as too much zanshin. Regards
Massimo Maddaloni

I believe this is the link that was referenced above.

http://www.helenair.com/articles/2008/07/09/local/80lo_080709_aikido.txt

Marc Kupper

09-01-2008, 05:19 PM

Does anyone know when this will go to court? When will someone know the outcome of the case?

Is this case being covered by the local media?

It's my experience that most criminal arrests don't seem get followed up on by the news unless there's one or more individuals agitating to the press.

Some courts have on-line calendars and so you may want to look into if the Helena area courts have such a thing. For example http://www.mtd.uscourts.gov/calendar.htm but Clint George is not listed (that calendar does not seem to support scanning the past/future). That may not be the right court or George's case is not in the time-window that's visible.

I see that Montana has a prisoner locator at http://app.mt.gov/conweb/ and there's a Clinton Percy George jailed for larceny, theft, other state from 19-FEB-82 to 12-APR-87. I have no idea if this is the same person.

aikidoc

09-01-2008, 05:25 PM

That does not appear to be him: blond and 1942 birth date.

Marc Kupper

09-01-2008, 05:42 PM

That does not appear to be him: blond and 1942 birth date.

I remembered the original news article had Clint George's age. You are correct. The former prisoner's DOB is reported as 10-21-1942 while the Clint George this thread is about was born in 1958 meaning it's quite unlikely to be the same person. Hair color and description seems less reliable as a way of matching, or not matching someone.

giriasis

09-01-2008, 05:42 PM

Some courts have on-line calendars and so you may want to look into if the Helena area courts have such a thing. For example http://www.mtd.uscourts.gov/calendar.htm but Clint George is not listed (that calendar does not seem to support scanning the past/future). That may not be the right court or George's case is not in the time-window that's visible.

It's not the right court. That's the link for the U.S. District Federal Court. Clint George's case would not be listed there because he did not commit a federal crime. The appropriate State Court would be the Clerk for the Lewisi and Clark County. Go to Montana Courts (http://montanacourts.org/crt_records/default.asp) Then scroll down and click on FAQ to see what is and is not public record.

Currently, they do not have their court docket available on line, but you can contact the clerk at:Lewis and Clark County (Dist. 1) Clerk (http://montanacourts.org/locate/dist1.asp)

Jared Hunter

09-25-2008, 09:32 AM

An update on this case:
Clint George entered a plea of guilty to his charges on sept 18th. His sentencing date will be Oct 23rd.

aikidoc

09-25-2008, 06:47 PM

I looked for the article in the paper referred to above but could not find it. What is the source?

Joe McParland

09-25-2008, 11:31 PM

Idle chatter. Get back to practice!

Jared Hunter

09-26-2008, 07:30 AM

I got my information by calling the county attorneys office and clerk of the court. Was also told federal charges are possible since internet was used for communication between the two. Seems its like using the US mail.....a federal offense.

Keith Larman

09-26-2008, 08:36 AM

Idle chatter. Get back to practice!

No. It is important information that should concern all who teach or work with children.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. And the world of Aikido (like many communities when it comes to this sort of behavior) has a sad history of ignoring and turning away from unpleasantness in its own midst.

aikidoc

09-26-2008, 08:49 AM

No. It is important information that should concern all who teach or work with children.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. And the world of Aikido (like many communities when it comes to this sort of behavior) has a sad history of ignoring and turning away from unpleasantness in its own midst.

I agree. To see someone of such obvious talents fall is a concern to us all, especially with children's programs often being the heart of many dojos.

Joe McParland

09-26-2008, 10:11 AM

No. It is important information that should concern all who teach or work with children.

I agree. To see someone of such obvious talents fall is a concern to us all, especially with children's programs often being the heart of many dojos.

Ridiculous.

Don't you both already know not to form inappropriate relationships with minors? Do you need the detailed disposition of this particular man's case to convince you?

You have your periodic and unfortunate reminder not to do bad things. That should be sufficient to keep you sober.

As a secondary matter, do we still confuse and entangle a man's talents with his flaws? Who put this man on a pedestal in the first place? Idols don't fall; the people who worship them do.

ChrisMoses

09-26-2008, 10:14 AM

As a secondary matter, do we still confuse and entangle a man's talents with his flaws? Who put this man on a pedestal in the first place? Idols don't fall; the people who worship them do.

Yes, thus the need for this kind of discussion. Stuff like this has been swept under too many rugs.

Ron Tisdale

09-26-2008, 10:42 AM

Joe McParland

09-26-2008, 11:19 AM

There really is no need for us to get personal, suggesting that individual posters need such reminders. Or what is or isn't sufficient for them...

Individual posters insist the community needs such reminders, yet none of Clint George, the victim, any of their family members, or any of their local community or the Aikido community in general is abstract or impersonal.

I agree that the matters you raised---that this is a possible dojo problem and that there are preventative steps that can be taken to maintain awareness and to reduce the risk of such problems arising---are worthy of discussion and that they can be discussed dispassionately and impersonally...

... maybe even in page one of a new thread instead of page 13 of a thread with title "Very Disturbing news about Clint George"?

aikidoc

09-26-2008, 11:38 AM

Ron Tisdale

09-26-2008, 11:50 AM

Individual posters insist the community needs such reminders, yet none of Clint George, the victim, any of their family members, or any of their local community or the Aikido community in general is abstract or impersonal.

The victim is not named, Clint George did the crime, so he's up for public review, the local community can be helped by this discussion, as can the Aikido community. Makes it worth while in my opinion.

I agree that the matters you raised---that this is a possible dojo problem and that there are preventative steps that can be taken to maintain awareness and to reduce the risk of such problems arising---are worthy of discussion and that they can be discussed dispassionately and impersonally...

... maybe even in page one of a new thread instead of page 13 of a thread with title "Very Disturbing news about Clint George"?

Hey, you create the thread, maybe I'll post. But this thread exists by the Grace Of Jun, so I'll post to it as I see fit. With or without gratuitous personal commentary... ;)
Best,
Ron

Ellis Amdur

09-26-2008, 12:26 PM

Fine lines. Abstract commentary is well and good. Here's the problem. Psychiatrists, psychologists, teachers, etc. all get explicit training on what constitutes a boundary trespass, and what is abusive behavior. Yet such happens with astounding frequency. Which leads to the question of why? Why is training and information not enough?
Particularly if we are talking about children, it is almost always the case that the perpetrator gravitated to the profession because of the opportunity it provides. Child abusers become scout leaders, church youth group leaders, and most obscenely, work with vulnerable homeless or abused children. (We need, therefore, to learn to recognize the behaviors of predators, how they hide and how they manipulate).
When we are talking about adults, the same can apply. Some predators favor vulnerable men and women as their victims. On other occasions, an apparently psychologically intact and balanced individual is somehow infatuated, intoxicated by the adulation offered by the client/student, etc., and out of an inadequate narcissism, is quite willing to believe it. (Bring this to aikido - in microcosm, without the sexual predation, this is a similar mechanism to the sensei who has a bunch of dive-bunny ukes, who flip-flop at a gesture, and the teacher honestly believes that he or she is powerful. Not sorry if that offended anyone either - it is the same mechanism. Narcissism feeds on inadequacy, not the light of truth). - (We need to learn, again, about predators, but now we also need to learn how people manage to use their own desires as "proof" that this situation is different - "it's not abuse here, because my feelings are special.)"
So let us come to the most difficult. Abuse of a teenager - biologically becoming an adult or even an adult in body - but definitely not psychologically. What kind of abuse occurs here? All of the above. From some predators, that is their victim of choice. Others are like the latter type, intoxicated and infatuated by the adulation and their own desires. Desire justifies itself.. But what makes it more complex are the following points: 1) the adult has an intellect. They know that this is an immature child, they know that this is illegal, they know that this is a violation - and they do it anyway. They rationalize past it - but they know it. 2) The individual who is drawn to immaturity is, by definition, profoundly inadequate. They can only feel powerful and complete with the weak. Can you see how the line, therefore, between the purely predatory and the inadequate breaks down? Both desire weak vulnerability to "feed off." In sum, then, there are no two "types." There are gradations of a single type, people who see sexuality as a means of nourishment, to take from a vulnerable other - by whatever means necessary - what they want. In ALL cases, the core drive is narcissism - the only thing that really matters is me. The distinction is one of comfort with the evil - of pure selfishness. The more purely predatory is absolutely at home with this. The more "inadequate" has some level of human feelings and they find psychological tricks to work on themselves to make it alright.
All of this leads to my final point. With due respect and protection of the victim in any such incident, there is more to understand than "don't do bad things." Only by understanding why someone does such can we protect against it. It is a fascinating thing that perpetrators of abuse use as "camo," a kind of charm. The same ability to seduce and get under the defenses of the victim is a skill to reassure the protectors that nothing is going on. The best predator is not some shambling, foul smelling beast that lurches out of a sewer. The best predator is a flower, a Venus flytrap, that people want in their garden.
In any such case, one must ask, "What did I not see? What did I see and not perceive? What did I discount?" I do NOT mean that C. George's "case" is tried here, unless some member of the dojo was to get on and say, "Here's the way this man conned me. I recognize now these set-ups were his forte." But in general, one can only learn about what are probably the most skilled criminals in the world, people who do their violations right in front of other people, when we understand how they do what they do.
Best

George S. Ledyard

09-26-2008, 12:40 PM

Narcissism feeds on inadequacy, not the light of truth). - (We need to learn, again, about predators, but now we also need to learn how people manage to use their own desires as "proof" that this situation is different - "it's not abuse here, because my feelings are special.)"

It would seem to me that there is a direct relationship between what you are saying about sexual predation and the issue of violence in the martial arts setting. I think that a huge number of people come to martial arts because they feel afraid on some level. I think they often have the mistaken idea that if they could just get enough power, to have the ability to defeat any opponent, that they won't feel afraid any more. They constantly keep trying to prove to themselves that they are powerful by hurting others, they try to show themselves that they aren't afraid by having others be afraid of them. Certainly, a guy like Klickstein had both the sexual abuse and the physical abuse going on in his dojo. Anyway, I would think that the root causes of these issues would be similar.
- George

Dan Rubin

09-26-2008, 12:44 PM

... maybe even in page one of a new thread instead of page 13 of a thread with title "Very Disturbing news about Clint George"?

There is (was) such a thread: "Abuse of Authority in Aikido," http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14158

SeiserL

09-26-2008, 02:58 PM

But in general, one can only learn about what are probably the most skilled criminals in the world, people who do their violations right in front of other people, when we understand how they do what they do.
Professionally I have to second Sensei Amdur's informative statements and thank him for it.

Dan Rubin

09-26-2008, 03:39 PM

In addition to understanding how the predator operates, I think it is also important to know how the state (in this case, the State of Montana) deals with the predator (which justifies keeping up with the status of Clint George's case). When prevention has failed, when we feel that our personal power cannot protect us, our only recourse is the power of the state. Without knowing the details surrounding Clint George's behavior it will be hard for us to judge the appropriateness of the state's response, but it's all we have.

salim

09-26-2008, 07:26 PM

makuchg

09-26-2008, 08:40 PM

People like that are a threat to society. They are terrorist in disguise. Sort of a Sethian Omniscient Satan!

I have three daughters and this news makes me cringe. He should get the electric chair for destroying a child's life. We should have no piety on individuals like him.

Thank you Salim, I couldn't agree more. As a father of two daughters I can say that incarceration is the safest place for these people (term used very liberally). We spend a lot of time focusing on how these people get this way or what makes them do this or that....truth is I don't care. I care about the victim. I care that my daughters are never one.

I lived in Saudi Arabia and the one thing they did well was deal with child molestors-your first offense was your last. There was no rehabilitation, no group sessions, no sex offender lists. There was however a very public punishment with a very sharp scimitar. Not to start a discussion on capital punishment, but some things definitely deserve it!

Marc Kupper

09-26-2008, 09:02 PM

I lived in Saudi Arabia and the one thing they did well was deal with child molestors-your first offense was your last. There was no rehabilitation, no group sessions, no sex offender lists. There was however a very public punishment with a very sharp scimitar. Not to start a discussion on capital punishment, but some things definitely deserve it!That statement makes me realize that Aikido does not seem to have the concept of punishment for past actions. We train for what's happening now. Is it within the scope of Aikido to punish someone for a past action or to take action because a person may be a threat to either ourselves or someone else in the future?

Buck

09-26-2008, 09:25 PM

I have been very vocal about this situation. I see the need not to sweep this under the Aikido rug. And those who see the situation in terms of separating the man from the art. I see those who felt others are more liberal in terms of how this issue is/was treated and not too quick to judge for a shelf full of reasons. And those who like myself judged quickly and where not as delicate on how see seen the situation. Of yesterday another concern came to life of why this issue shouldn't get attention.

We as humans have a need to communicate, maybe its part of our survival skills. Look, we created the internet, telephones, letters, smoke signals...etc all to communicate more effectively and faster. We as people understand communication among our family, tribe, community etc, is part of survival of those groups. In our modern times we call it news. The tsunami that struck Thailand on Dec 26, 2004 was the result of lack of communication that killed so many people. It is the lack of communication that allows criminals to work effectively. It is the efforts of communication that keeps crime down. It is communication that provides freedom, it frees people from all sort of oppressions.

It is communication that must continue.

salim

09-26-2008, 10:12 PM

That statement makes me realize that Aikido does not seem to have the concept of punishment for past actions. We train for what's happening now. Is it within the scope of Aikido to punish someone for a past action or to take action because a person may be a threat to either ourselves or someone else in the future?

Would you LET the DEVIL into your home? A person like that is EVIL beyond words. There is no forgiving. They should be destroyed to prevent further harm.

We're talking about destroying the life of a child, who can't make certain decisions about their own life. Who doesn't have the aptitude to know right from wrong fully.

Aikido is not the law that governs human sanctity, a child's life is not a means to be philosophical.

It's because of statments like that, I can't accept Aikido religion. Unbelievable.

Keith Larman

09-27-2008, 01:41 PM

Ridiculous.

Don't you both already know not to form inappropriate relationships with minors? Do you need the detailed disposition of this particular man's case to convince you?

You have your periodic and unfortunate reminder not to do bad things. That should be sufficient to keep you sober.

Classy.

Thank you, no, I don't need the reminders. As a matter of fact it is virtually inconceivable to me how it is that these things happen. Which is in part why I *need* to discuss how this stuff happens. I find it hard to believe that they happen both as an instructor of children but also as a father of a daughter. My, god, what a horrible thing to do to a young psyche. I just can't understand how a grown man can do that.

So, Joe, thank you for your insight but I don't need the reminders. Not at all. I find the behavior inconceivable. There has to be a huge disconnect in someone's head to somehow think it is okay to get involved in this way with a 13-14 year old kid. So why then does it happen? And why has it happened *AGAIN*!

It has to be discussed. It has to be understood. It has to be something everyone is cognizant of so they can hopefully act when something seems wrong. I find it inconceivable that someone could do that kind of thing. Which has made me realize that I need to keep my eyes and mind open and learn something otherwise how will I ever notice if it *is* happening somewhere within my sphere of experience? It happening to someone close to me without my noticing is even more terrifying to me.

Mr. Amdur referenced a book earlier which I read (and passed on to some other instructors). Predator or something like that. Scary book, but insightful.

I teach kids. I have a handful in the 14-16 year range who are struggling with that difficult transitional time into young adulthood. And they should not have to deal with this sort of thing and we as a community need to be aware of how insidious these things are and then guard against them.

It has happened before Mr. George. In one famous incident the perpetrator had committed multiple acts of abuse over a long span of time. He'd even been caught multiple times. But because he was so respected and because he was so apologetic each time, each time he was given a pass. And because no one wanted to talk about this uncomfortable topic he went on to abuse many more children over the years.

And here we are now debating yet again whether we should even talk talk about it...

I find having this very debate as difficult to fathom as the abuse of a minor in the first place. How can you not want to bring it into the light, try to understand, then make bloody sure you do everything to guard against it happening again? We as a community don't seem to have a very good track record thus far...

Joe McParland

09-27-2008, 07:47 PM

Keith,

That was a very impassioned essay. Clearly you spent a good deal of time considering your response and writing it. There is no doubt about your sincerity at all...

But while you spent all of this time recording what harm *could^ befall your daughter, where was she?

salim

09-27-2008, 11:08 PM

Extremist always find and use religious philosophies to commit evil. In this case it was Aikido's religious apparatus use to commit evil.

Joe McParland

09-27-2008, 11:21 PM

Would you LET the DEVIL into your home? A person like that is EVIL beyond words. There is no forgiving. They should be destroyed to prevent further harm.

Extremist always find and use religious philosophies to commit evil. In this case it was Aikido's religious apparatus use to commit evil.

What else do extremists think, Salim?

Keith Larman

09-28-2008, 01:08 AM

Buck

09-28-2008, 01:15 AM

Aikido preaches love, and I have debated my feelings about that. I don't think O'Sensei when he used the term love, here being a symbol for Aikido's religious system, to have anything to do with this issue. The idea of love should be carefully looked at. It shouldn't go beyond the original intentions( I feel ) for a new social platform that points to a society that is in opposition to the past violent feudal society of the past- where people treat people each other with greater respect, responsibility and reverence. Aikido's idea of love certainly should not apply to Clint George for his behavior. Aikido's idea of love is about rescuing lost kittens from trees, or rescuing lost puppies.

He is a sick individual that must come to terms with his actions and his distortions and all those close to him he has hurt. By doing it shows he has taken responsiblity, he then will acted in love to no longer harm others and work to heal those he hurt. He has not done this, and thus, he should not be afforded any love, but rather the disappointment and anguish of his behaviors. In which he must exercise responsibility to her family, his family and friends as well as those he hurt, those are the ones that love should be focused on.

He choose his path, he must walk it.

Joe McParland

09-28-2008, 01:46 AM

Playing Monopoly with my wife in the other room...

A very good answer. All that could be better is if you were there too instead of responding to me... After all, who am I? I'm just a pile of words on the Internet :rolleyes:

My daughter is 11. My son is 8. I teach kids too---homeschoolers, with parents present (and participating). I also was involved in Cub Scouts and had to take related training and abide by a lot of sensible rules around the kids. My wife works with the girl scouts---same thing. I am not unsympathetic to the issues...

I do the best I can as a dad. I do the best I can as the instructor for our club. What more can we reasonably do?

This story, like others, serves best as a cautionary reminder to stay alert when your kids are concerned and to keep an eye on your peers in positions of authority to help them and your organizations stay on the straight and narrow.

Life is simple(r) this way.

Keith Larman

09-28-2008, 02:02 AM

A very good answer. All that could be better is if you were there too instead of responding to me... After all, who am I? I'm just a pile of words on the Internet :rolleyes:

True, and what does that have to do with the issue at hand other than implying I neglect my daughter. Lovely.

My daughter is 11. My son is 8. I teach kids too---homeschoolers, with parents present (and participating). I also was involved in Cub Scouts and had to take related training and abide by a lot of sensible rules around the kids. My wife works with the girl scouts---same thing. I am not unsympathetic to the issues...

I do the best I can as a dad. I do the best I can as the instructor for our club. What more can we reasonably do?

Make sure it doesn't happen. Obviously you've done all you should do and are quite comfortable with it. Cool. However, these sorts of things have happened before and continue to happen. And often right under the noses of others who either are not paying attention or who are choosing to ignore the uncomfortable reality.

This story, like others, serves best as a cautionary reminder to stay alert when your kids are concerned and to keep an eye on your peers in positions of authority to help them and your organizations stay on the straight and narrow.

Life is simple(r) this way.

Yes, and we should be talking about like we are right now to make sure everyone out there in a position of authority takes that hard look. This very thread got me reading some books on the topic including one Mr. Amdur recommended. I learned a lot. And all this caused discussion in our dojo. Which resulted in some tweaking of our policies on adults, instructors, assistants, and parents. Because we discussed it.

Because we didn't just shut up and train.

And I'm going to bow out now because I've said my part. And I must say I truly do not appreciate the irrelevant digs you've put into your posts. You do not know me. You certainly don't know anything about how I raise my daugther. So this is *really* a good time for me to walk away from this discussion.

salim

09-28-2008, 04:27 AM

What else do extremists think, Salim?
Is OK to harm CHILDREN Joe? Is that extreme Joe? What should happen to people who harm children Joe?

Joe McParland

09-28-2008, 10:47 AM

Is OK to harm CHILDREN Joe? Is that extreme Joe? What should happen to people who harm children Joe?

The glow of the fire and the smell of the brimstone nearby... Someone has let the devil into his home...

ChrisMoses

09-28-2008, 11:06 AM

The glow of the fire and the smell of the brimstone nearby... Someone has let the devil into his home...

Please don't feed the trolls.

jennifer paige smith

09-28-2008, 11:08 AM

Joe,
I read your essay entitled Hypocrite (which has since been removed from the archives of the internet, although you can find the site where it used to be ) about your feeelings regarding Clint George Sensei's fall from grace after you attended an inspiring workshop he offered in your dojo. The essay was previously to be found on your blog, Aiki in Seattle. It expressed exactly the same feelings and emotions that people are expressing here in a different, but related forum.

Your essay was insightful and accurate to my experience of this incredible tragedy and to the way it has hit many people.

I regret that you are no longer posting on your aikido blog forum. I also regret that you made that choice in considerably close proximity to the time that you wrote the essay about Sensei George. Please respect that others have chosen not to abandon the discussion. By all appearances you don't seem to be done with it either. From my perspective that points to the healthy elements of this discussion and our needs to 'get it out'.

But, If you really mean 'shut up and train', well , "One finger forward and three fingers back" on the hand that points.

I hope we can all settle into our training together and move forward, or backward, with good information.

Peace,
Jen

Joe McParland

09-28-2008, 11:32 AM

If everybody did just shut up and train---which is to say that, when teaching, the teacher just teaches; when in class, the student just learns; and so forth---the odds of such events occurring should decrease.

How can this be?

When you are in tune with what pure teaching is, you are more likely to recognize what it is when a teacher is not purely teaching, but may have other intention. When you know what it is to purely learn as a student, you are more likely to recognize when a student is not purely learning, but may have other intention. And when you know that no person may be entirely pure, you will be less likely to believe---out of want, out of idolization, or out of habit and complacency---that someone is.

There is no need to live suspecting that everyone you see is a child molester. There is also no need to live giving anyone the benefit of the doubt that he or she is not. Approach every situation with a clear mind and act according to the circumstances of situation.

Aikido is one path that teaches this.

So, there is the root of the advice, "Shut up and practice."

Mark Uttech

09-28-2008, 11:33 AM

Onegaishimasu. "Aikido is communication" is a common theme of Mary Heiny Sensei's teaching. The internet, being still new, pushes emotional buttons that many of us didn't know we had. My father taught me a basic 24 hour rule: "write your reply using all the emotion you have; but don't send it for 24 hours." That rule has stood me in good stead through many emotional twists and turns.

In gassho,

Mark

jennifer paige smith

09-28-2008, 11:43 AM

Joe McParland

09-28-2008, 11:49 AM

Joe,
I read your essay entitled Hypocrite (which has since been removed from the archives of the internet, although you can find the site where it used to be ) about your feeelings regarding Clint George Sensei's fall from grace after you attended an inspiring workshop he offered in your dojo. The essay was previously to be found on your blog, Aiki in Seattle. It expressed exactly the same feelings and emotions that people are expressing here in a different, but related forum.

I am not that person, Jen. I was one of the respondents to that blog and had a nice conversation with the fellow. The follow on exchange happened on my own blog back in march here:

http://inexhaustiblethings.blogspot.com/2008/03/fallen-heroes-shattered-delusions.html

Blog postings, AikiWeb postings, and such are all ways to practice the balancing and harmony-restoring principles of Aikido. Hand-holding, head-patting "there, there" tenkans are not the only means in the art. Irimis and atemis are offered with the same respect among fellow practitioners.

So, with respect as always,

jennifer paige smith

09-28-2008, 12:12 PM

Blog postings, AikiWeb postings, and such are all ways to practice the balancing and harmony-restoring principles of Aikido.

So, with respect as always,

A virtual mat.

Joe McParland

09-28-2008, 12:15 PM

I'm glad you have also been taught well.

Alas, that I may have been taught well does not mean that I always do so well :(

So, I do the best I can---and I screw up with the best of 'em! ;)

Be well!

jennifer paige smith

09-28-2008, 12:45 PM

Alas, that I may have been taught well does not mean that I always do so well :(

So, I do the best I can---and I screw up with the best of 'em! ;)

Be well!

Along with the rest of us;).

Thanks and well, I be.

B.J.M.

09-28-2008, 12:53 PM

What happened to the actual subject of this thread? It is about Clint George. Some how it has become a venue for verbal sparring.

Joe, it seems that you are picking fights with people on this thread and taking things extremely personal and I wonder why. Why do you feel the need to guard your opinions so strongly that you write things that are particularly rude? It simply doesn't warrant that kind of response.

True, the subject matter should be discussed. However, I think that it is starting to get a little personal and way off topic.

akiy

09-28-2008, 04:28 PM

Hi folks,

As I've asked before:

Let's try to steer the discussion back to being directly pertinent to aikido and the original topic. If you wish to discuss a more general topic, please do so in the Open Discussions forum.

As before, please let's keep the discussion regarding this news item respectful and civil. Thank you.

Thanks,

-- Jun

gdandscompserv

09-29-2008, 11:07 AM

salim

09-29-2008, 11:16 AM

Tougher punishment on criminals who commit these barbaric crimes may deter many. If you know that you are going to lose your life if you commit such a crime, you may think twice.

crbateman

09-29-2008, 11:26 AM

Tougher punishment on criminals who commit these barbaric crimes may deter many. If you know that you are going to lose your life if you commit such a crime, you may think twice.I wouldn't bet on it. Deterrents are most effective on rational people, and people who commit predatory crimes against children are already predisposed to not thinking about their futures. If becoming a shamed societal outcast does not deter, I don't think anything else is likely to, either.

Marc Abrams

09-29-2008, 12:40 PM

I dare say that none of the 'profiling' done in this thread is going to enable anyone the skills to catch a predator. However, as several folks have mentioned, there are methods to reduce the risks to old and young alike. Several youth groups have very well developed prevention policies, and yet, sometimes, things still happen.
About two months after I was hired as a youth computer lab administrator for the Army, my boss, the guy who hired me, was charged with sexual crimes relating to one of the teenagers at the youth center where we worked. When the incident first was reported, some thought that I was involved because I was the only other male working in the facility. Some thought we must be in it together. How could we work so close together and me not know? I can tell you, that is a very scary position to find oneself in. My work computer was immediately seized along with my bosses. Why? Mostly due to mass hysteria. And also because it is easy for your employer to seize your computer. No warrant, no permission, just done. It was a bad time. I was eventually exonerated after being interrogated by the sheriffs department. This whole thing made me reconsider my career choice and I eventually left the youth center. I am very cautious when working with youth now. Did that whole experience enhance my ability to spot a predator? Naw, I don't think so. Has this thread enhanced my ability to spot a predator? No. Has this thread raised my awareness of a problem inherent in our society? No, I was already painfully aware of the problem. Has this thread allowed many people to vent their frustrations? Yes. So carry on my good friends.
:)

One of the reasons that I cautioned people not to talk about this issue in terms of good vs. evil was well illustrated by Ricky's comment. Ellis and other professionals (myself included- I also happen to specialize in forensic psychological evaluations) have pointed out certain personality trait groups that these people can fall into (eg. narcissistic, sociopathic, ....). The REAL problem is is that those same personality trait groupings can be enacted in what we would consider socially successful manners. Just think of the charismatic industry leader who loves the power and money. That person might seem truly concerned when this leader acts to help the company and axes 10,000 jobs.

We can identify personality trait grouping, but we CANNOT predict, based upon those trait groupings, how they might be enacted in a person's daily life. History is still the most accurate predictor of future behaviors. If we don't know of the past, or the behavior has not occurred before, then how are we to guess? Should we be suspicious of every charismatic person who happens to work well with children or teenagers?

The sad truth is that there is a sector of people in this country who have interfered with educating children about appropriate boundaries in relation to body parts because it falls under the rubric of sex education. Educating our children about these issues is an important safeguard that has helped. Children have come forward and reported on adults based upon this type of education.

The other sad part has been that parents are so eager to drop their children off at one activity after another, never staying to watch or becoming involved, thinking that this is good parenting. The other important safeguard is the parent's involvement (of course assuming that the parent is not the abuser- which I have had to deal with as well in a professional capacity).

This discussion has been fruitful. Despite being a psychologist, with a post-doc in child psychology, I would not allow anybody to just assume that this is some key to safety. I opened a discussion in my dojo with all of the parents about this issue in our community. We have set rules regarding my interaction with the children in all areas. Parents gained some appreciation as to why I have encouraged them to remain and watch the classes and to even participate with their children. Participating with the children has been a wonderful way for a parent to spend meaningful time with their children. Having other adults present also serves as a safeguard to me in case some accusations were to ever be made against me.

The sad fact is that there are abusers in our communities and we have not yet found a way to proactively identify them in order to prevent these acts from occurring. Until we reach this point in time, it is up to all of us to appropriately prepare our children to be as safe as they can and for all of us to be aware of our children and their friends when we are responsible for their care.

Marc Abrams

Buck

09-29-2008, 09:00 PM

I am not sure here, is the concern of potential mass hysteria out weighing a crime? Are we more concerned about the potential of mass hysteria than the crime Clint George pleaded guilty too?

I don't see mass hysteria going on with the crime he committed! I don't see any of the things that seem to be scaring people in looking the other way out of fear they might be accused. From what I know only Clint George was accused which he plead guilty. The law didn't accuse anyone else, or invade anyone else's privacy, or a Janet Reno full court press witch hunt.

The case has moved on, it is at the point where Clint George has plead guiltily. I really think we are past that Janet Reno thing, and I don't think reviving it is realistic in this matter. I also think it is wrong to imply what happens in one instance to one person is ia global catastrophe that will effect everyone. I think we watch and take the news too seriously and have been condition by them as they scare us with huge doses of over-sensationalism and hyper-exaggeration just to get our attention so we will listen to them -this is the real mass-hysteria and not the instance Ricky Wood talked about concerning the fear everyone will be accused.

An actual news teaser, " Man dies of natural causes in accident, a killer is on the loose, don't be next. Watch super new xx." .

Clint George being caught and pleading guilty has had no Janet Reno witch hunt, no mass media attention, or all the other things that would incite any type of mass-hysteria that seems to be a concern. What it has done is taken off the rose colored glassed, it has been a dose of old water reality, and shown a need for everyone to be vigilant at all times to insure, if you are going to work with children in Aikido, or allow your children to take an Aikido class, that a child isn't abused by anyone in the class. That isn't mass-hysteria, that is common sense, it is putting the word out, it is putting a stop to the "See no evil, ear no evil and speak no evil." in the dojo. And you do this, for example, by not ever allowing a child student to ever be alone at anytime with an adult student or sensei. In addition to putting down standards and rules for the the whole dojo, and the dojo and parents to follows and enforce them. No matter who that person is.

I have and still am against teaching kids Aikido. The situation we are discussing is my number one reason against teaching kids Aikido or any martial art for that.

Again I want to keep things in perspective, there isn't and wasn't any mass-hysteria or a Janet Reno full court press witch hunt of any kind, nor mass media hype coverage giving cause for panic (just one article in a local paper. I think this is the only board that is discussing Clint George) to give anyone any cause to be concerned that anyone one else other than Clint George was accused when Clint George was being accused. This concern in Aikido with Clint George is by no way even close to the issue in the Catholic Church. Let's not say it is. But I am sure some can argue fringe parallels in terms of ignoring the issue, maybe.

No need to be hyper-sensitive or concerned and creating something that isn't or will not happen; mass-hysteria or witch hunt. We are past that phase now as Clint George has plead guilty. The next phase of this disturbing news is the details of the trial, sentencing, and how it will effect those who teach Aikido to kids (if any, that is the bread and butter I feel so many people feel the need to protect. And that should also be equally disturbing ).

Buck

09-29-2008, 09:35 PM

Are parents who take their kids from event to event (one of which Aikido) are to blame? That shouldn't even be an issue we should not shift the blame. I don't think shifting the blame from Clint George and on to parents who shuttle their kids to events is part of the situation. Why wouldn't parents assume a trust with their kids, Aikido is kid friendly. Aikido is the art of peace and love, and not about violence. So bringing in parents is something that shouldn't even come into play when discussing the Clint George situation. Let's not shift the blame off of Clint George and on to parents who are told near and far Aikido is kid friendly, and kid safe.

Honestly, parents should never have to worried about people like Clint George. If you want to put a blame on someone it should be on the society that we all elected to build, For example the movie, "Towelhead." There are reasons for taboos, and some that should never be played to us to wear down our stands against such things making them taboo, no matter what. What something to blame, blame those who want to wear down the resistance to things that are unacceptable main stream behaviors i.e. taboos (such as pedophilia) to make them acceptable behavior via entertainment.

Here again Clint George's actions are disturbing. Not that some parents shuttle their kids robotically from venue to venue, it isn't distrubing news and shouldn't be.

Buck

09-29-2008, 10:15 PM

Many readers might think I was directing my comments at Marc's comments in his post. I was rather spring boarding from Marc's comments. After reading Marc's comments, and what seems almost automatic in many situations where children are involved the parents become scape goats and some of the blame from a perp is sluffed off on to all parents for global bad parenting of parents.

I wanted to point that Aikido because of it's tenets of love, peace, anti-violence appeals to parents who want something active for their kids. I agree with Marc some of those parents use Aikido as a baby sitting service. Though I don't think parents no being involved and watching their kids should have to worry about their kid being abused or harmed. Nor take any blame for abuse or harm just because they are not as involved as they should be. This is different then those parents who offer their kids to the likes of Wacko Jacko. Or those who ignore their kids completely, emotionally, etc.

The 13 year old girl parents if any are to share blame of serious neglect. But even so, they should not be blamed for the action of the dysfunction of Clint George. Again, I don't think they offered their child up to Clint George. Yet, if they did, then they are to blame to what happened to their child. But that is as far as it should go in scope. My point is once again indicating there is no witch hunt or mass hysteria. Unless it is started by someone who take the blame off of Clint George and places it on all parents.

Aikido shouldn't teach kids, as it was once done. This would eliminate Aikido as a baby sitting service, all the ills of bad parenting, evils against children, and attract those who would do harm to children.

Kevin Leavitt

09-29-2008, 10:24 PM

Actually is you follow policy and procedure such as the Boy Scouts of America developed, it pretty much protects both the adults running the program and the kids.

Heck even in the Army Training Commands, we have pretty good guidelines to ensure you are not put in a awkward situation with students.

You can choose to blame whom ever you want, and list all the would of should of stuff..... but at some point, the guy that actually committed the act is responsible....period.

Mary Eastland

09-30-2008, 06:37 AM

Marc Abrams

09-30-2008, 08:13 AM

Phillip:

I am sorry that you have mistaken what I said for blaming parents. We grew up in times where children were left in carriages outside of grocery stores. I would hitchhike to town when I was 9 y/o.

The sad reality is that it is a very different world. Parents are the guardians of the next generation. Common sense guardianship and involvement are needed today to help our children navigate our society while growing up to be responsible members of the next generation. There are real dangers out there that we cannot yet preventively identify. This should lead us to take common sense precautions. I do strongly disagree with you regarding teaching children Aikido. I see this as a venue to make a meaningful contribution towards raising children who can handle potential conflicts without having to resort to a win-lose paradigm.

Marc Abrams

gdandscompserv

09-30-2008, 09:09 AM

I would encourage anyone who does not believe in teaching aikido to children to do exactly that. Don't do it. They would know you weren't sincere anyway and it would not be a constructive relationship. I do teach youth and enjoy it very much. There is nothing like seeing a grandfather roll with his grandson on the mat. The bonding that takes place in that kind of interaction is very powerful and beneficial. I am a strong advocate of having parents participate in class, no matter how small their role. If they can't participate, they should at least stay and watch.

SeiserL

09-30-2008, 10:58 AM

IMHO, its not about mass hysteria or paranoia, its about mass ignorance. Too many people are using diagnostic terms for something and someone they know nothing about. When you get into the personality disorders, it a hard call because often they are the ones who do the job the best. Unfortunately, they also don't think the lines apply to them. So well meaning organizations, parents, and society can have everything in place and these people will waltz through and do what they want, without conscience.

Its not about the child, the parents, the organization, or the society. Its about them. They are the one who committed the crime. They are the one's responsible. Explanation are not excuses.

I am glad that many people have a strong reaction to crimes against children/minors. IMHO, that proves some level of health. Compliments for being willing to have these conversations. Yet, it may be more fruitful to get away from the personality and onto the issues of training and living in loving protection.

There will always be sheep. There will always be wolves. There will always be sheep dogs. Which are you?

jennifer paige smith

09-30-2008, 11:06 AM

There will always be sheep. There will always be wolves. There will always be sheep dogs. Which are you?

A sleepy dog who needs a shepherd called aikido, not 'Master'.

The art is pure, people are flawed, let's remember that order for the exact purpose of loving protection.Perhaps as Lynn said so beautifully above.

I don't have the answers here, for sure. Maybe the lessons of triangle, circle, square can be helpful:
Parents and children and teachers enter the dojo, (triangle), we look to common practice for wellness ( circle), structure our techniques of protection well ( square).

I hope everyone heals well from this.

Best for now,
Jen

Keith Larman

09-30-2008, 11:12 AM

...Aikido shouldn't teach kids, as it was once done. This would eliminate Aikido as a baby sitting service, all the ills of bad parenting, evils against children, and attract those who would do harm to children.

I'm sorry, that's just silly. Tossing out the baby with the bathwater as they say.

We have a robust, fun kids program. Heck, we had a class last week with 20 kids rolling around. Tons of kid energy. And since I get to teach the advanced kids (i.e., the ones who've come up through our kids program who are now pushing into and in the teenage years) I get to see exactly what the benefits are. Confident kids who have an intuitive grasp of body mechanics, movement, balance, etc. The power these kids can generate when they want to is incredible. And ideally we've added tools to their toolbox for dealing with confrontations and stresses of daily life that are a bit more nuanced than fight or flight.

I am a firm believer of Santayana's comment about learning from history. We must acknowledge, discuss and understand what has happened. And work to tweak and improve how we do things to ensure we're doing things right. Learn from the mistakes made. Identify the vulnerabilities. Then make sure those things are being actively addressed in your own sphere of influence. There needs to be a balance struck between shrieking and the wringing of hands on one side and the shoving of one's head even deeper into the sand.

Fudo-Myoo. Instructors are necessarily both teachers and protectors. We have both obligations. And we all need to live up to that higher standard.

So I very much like Lynn's analogy. I've often commented to my wife (who trains and shows herding dogs) that I feel like I'm the border collie in the kid's class. A little bit of protection and a little bit of herding but mostly a watchful eye as they figure it out for themselves...

Dan Rubin

09-30-2008, 11:39 AM

We grew up in times where children were left in carriages outside of grocery stores. I would hitchhike to town when I was 9 y/o.

What caused it to become different today?

Fred Little

09-30-2008, 11:57 AM

What caused it to become different today?

Freedom of movement, cheap gasoline, suburbanization, and the effects of these three elements on geographically compact communities which had dense internal networks of long-standing family, economic, and civic relationships.

And in the latter phases of the process, the personal sound system revolution that started with the Walkman and is now into the iPod phase didn't help either.

Best,

FL

Dan Rubin

09-30-2008, 12:08 PM

So does that mean that there are no more predators today than there ever were, just that in the past it was more difficult for them to ply their trade (or perhaps that they had to keep their activities within the family, literally)? Might it also mean that in the past it was equally taboo to be a predator and a victim, so that such abuse was never reported, and so in the past it was just as dangerous as it is today to leave an unattended baby carriage or for a youngster to hitchhike?

Marc Abrams

09-30-2008, 01:05 PM

Dan:

Trying to answer "why" in the past is not where we should be putting our attention (my opinion). Focusing in on how we can make our society a safer, saner, more peaceful place to live in is where I like to focus my attention. Teaching Aikido to people of all ages is just one small contribution that I try to make towards achieving that goal.

Marc Abrams

Buck

09-30-2008, 01:14 PM

Phillip:

I am sorry that you have mistaken what I said for blaming parents. I do strongly disagree with you regarding teaching children Aikido. I see this as a venue to make a meaningful contribution towards raising children who can handle potential conflicts without having to resort to a win-lose paradigm.

Marc Abrams

I guess I wasn't really disagreeing with you as much as I was spring boarding to the idea that some might use your post to argue that it is ok to blame all parents and not the perp of such things. Maybe it didn't come-off so well.

Though I do think that by not teaching kids, you eliminate the concern with the points you made about parents. You eliminate the opportunity for those, like Clint George to abuse children, among the risks good people take teaching kids. Teaching kids is a difficult area with allot of potential problems all the way around. I understand the benefits kids might get, but they can get those benefits else where in activities created for kids under professional direction and by those individuals trained professional to teach kids. Where in the proper professional environment all the things needed and the boundaries needed to teach kids are in place and exercised. If that isn't in place the risks to the kids are high, and as a result we are talking about the fall out of those risks.

Those who suspected Clint George and didn't act on it, would have possible acted sooner if professional trained to deal with kids. Aikido really was and is set up for adults. Trying to tweak Aikido to be kid friendly isn't the same as having trained professions in the field of kids. For example, you don't need a license to teach kids like you do if you do for teaching them, or caring for them- i.e. daycare. Any one can open a dojo and teach kids, placing kids a high risk situation. Clint George was well respected and liked in the Aikido community, and thus people trusted him...well we know the rest of the story. Aikido really in all tense and purposes is for adults.

Jen,

I have dated a 13 year old girl...we went bowling with her and her family when I was 13 years old. Well, sadly the relationship only lasted a short time. She moved. Does that count? :)

I am not sure what you are saying Jen. But, I don't approve of adults getting involved with children, I think it is sick on the adults part. A 13 year old is not fully mature and is highly impressionable, plus all the other things at that point in life. Really, I think that is why we call them children, kids, teenagers.

I don't have kids. I may not understand all the dynamics involved but I think I am smart enough to recognize a situation that shouldn't exist for kids. I don't treat them like adults, I don't let underaged kids drive my car, I recognize when a child is in danger, etc. I am smart enough not to criticize parents too much. Just if the parent hangs their kid over a balcony of a 4 story building. Or leaves them in a car of a bar's parking lot to freeze to death because they when inside for a drink. Or decide to punish them to death. Or, let them play in a street at 5, etc. The obvious major stuff. And enough sense (IMO only) to know Aikido is for adults and not kids, just like driving a car is.

Marc Kupper

09-30-2008, 01:17 PM

The sad reality is that it is a very different world.I would disagree with that. I was raised in a large part by a grandmother and so had a "diet" of stories from her generation in the early 1900s, stories from my parents/and their generation (in laws, etc.), the lives of people in my own generation (myself included), and now the childrens' lives. My observation is that the overall awareness and behaviors are relatively unchanged over the past 100, and probably more, years.

I am interested in an earlier comment on this thread
Actually is you follow policy and procedure such as the Boy Scouts of America developed, it pretty much protects both the adults running the program and the kids.

Heck even in the Army Training Commands, we have pretty good guidelines to ensure you are not put in a awkward situation with students.Is this the policy/procedure for the Boy Scouts? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_Protection_program_(Boy_Scouts_of_America)

"Army Training Commands" appears to not be the correct term. Can someone point me to a web site or source for the military guidelines? I suspect these would have less relevance to a dojo setting but knowing the overall guidelines may be of use.

What about public school teachers and others that work with children?

Overall, with one reported incident of serious abuse in a dojo every ten years or more so I don't think drastic changes are needed in how we do things but that having a well known set of guidelines can serve to improve on awareness. With Clint George it seems from the first news article, http://www.helenair.com/articles/2008/03/11/top/55lo_080311_assault.txt, that the system worked. Someone was concerned, contacted a parent who in turn called the police. The guidelines would be there to improve the odds of detecting other Clint Georges and preventing some future occurrences as potential predators would realize the odds are they will get caught and choose to just think about it rather than acting.

Dan Rubin

09-30-2008, 01:18 PM

Marc (Abrams)

My thought is that it might help us deal with the dangers of the present if we know why circumstances were safer in the past.

Buck

09-30-2008, 01:33 PM

Jen,

I just got done talking to a co-worker about how some 13 year old girls can be "wild" and "confused" to say the least. It can be contributed such actions of a kid can be attributed to the parent(s). I don't think Aikido can fix that. And yes, maybe the parent(s) of the victim can be blamed, maybe. I can't blame them since I know nothing of them, or the personality of the girl. Is this what your getting at?

Marc Abrams

09-30-2008, 01:54 PM

Dan:

Post-hoc reasoning always seems to be 20:20... Go figure. Looking at large scale situations results in us trying to parse out the multitude of variable, loading for each variable and the interaction effects.....

We can certainly learn from past events. We are certainly trying to deepen our superficial understanding of human behavior. Our predictive abilities simply stink at this point in time. As I said previous, past behaviors are the single best factor towards predicting future behaviors.

I have survived three adolescents (now 31, 28, & 25- one girl, two boys). I have one adolescent to go (14 y/o boy). I now have a one year old granddaughter. Parenting is a VERY difficult task at best. A lot of the work that needs to go in to preparing our children to handle their own lives needs to have been done before they become teens. You know you have done a good job when a parent comes up to you and says: "I just have to tell you that you have the most polite and respectful teen that I have seen in a long time......" You as the parent, turn and look behind you, thinking that they are talking to somebody else! Your teens typically display that "good" behavior for other adults and save the "best" for you.

Finding a good balance between monitoring your teens behaviors and allowing them to experience the consequences of their choices is a very fine line. The more involved parents during the earlier years typically have a better line of communication with their teens and the monitoring tends to be more effective. This is always an "interesting" feedback loop when dealing with teens emerging sexual identities.

Until our society becomes more mutually aware and protective our those around us, then we as parents are left with a daunting task. The more involved (appropriately so) you are in your child's life, the easier this task will be.

I cannot help but wonder how many classes the parents of the 13 y/o girl watched. I wonder who, if anybody, picked up on the vibes that something did not feel right. These questions are heaped in the bunch of "famous last words" because the damage has been done. Moving forward, I hope that we as teachers and parents remain alert and aware.

Marc Abrams

Dan Rubin

09-30-2008, 02:04 PM

Freedom of movement, cheap gasoline, suburbanization, and the effects of these three elements on geographically compact communities which had dense internal networks of long-standing family, economic, and civic relationships.

And in the latter phases of the process, the personal sound system revolution that started with the Walkman and is now into the iPod phase didn't help either.

The more involved parents during the earlier years typically have a better line of communication with their teens and the monitoring tends to be more effective.

Fred and Marc

I think that you have answered my questions. Thanks.

SeiserL

09-30-2008, 05:43 PM

IMHO, predators and pedophiles have existed throughout history. With the media coverage in the information era, we may just be more aware and informed of it. This is a good things. We are out of denial. We cannot protect ourselves (families and children) from anything we won't admit is there. Always be willing to look evil in the eye. That;s the courage and the discipline.

BTW, most predators (that includes pedophiles) find their marks (victims) through their fears and insecurities. Watch National Geographics, they don't go after the strong ones in the herd.

So what can we do to build stronger more secure children? How can we give them permission to respect and challenge authority?

Buck

09-30-2008, 07:35 PM

Jen,

Let me add after several conversations with co-workers and friends from a variety of backgrounds, countries, ethnicity, economic background etc. from a wide range of parenting styles and beliefs not all 13 year old girls (not that you implied that) are "difficult, or lost souls." Not all parents should be stereotyped for seemingly common actions and behaviors I guess. It is a case by case situation.

I think there is a pocket of society who has lost touch with rasing kids and they run a high risk of their 13 year old daughter running amok-ending up on the Maury Povich Show, or becoming suspectable to criminals with the dysfunction of the likes of Clint George, and others, or living on the streets, etc.

Your not going to tell parents how to raise their kids, I think the focus should be on those who prey on kids, lets not worry so much on what the parents did or didn't do in rasing their kid, that is secondary, lets focus on the primary, on how society doesn't concern its self with those like Clint George as much as it does with paying taxes, or Wall Street.

Hope that answers your question.

jennifer paige smith

09-30-2008, 08:01 PM

Jen,

I have dated a 13 year old girl...we went bowling with her and her family when I was 13 years old. Well, sadly the relationship only lasted a short time. She moved. Does that count? :)

I am not sure what you are saying Jen. But, I don't approve of adults getting involved with children, I think it is sick on the adults part. A 13 year old is not fully mature and is highly impressionable, plus all the other things at that point in life. Really, I think that is why we call them children, kids, teenagers.

I don't have kids. I may not understand all the dynamics involved but I think I am smart enough to recognize a situation that shouldn't exist for kids. I don't treat them like adults, I don't let underaged kids drive my car, I recognize when a child is in danger, etc. I am smart enough not to criticize parents too much. Just if the parent hangs their kid over a balcony of a 4 story building. Or leaves them in a car of a bar's parking lot to freeze to death because they when inside for a drink. Or decide to punish them to death. Or, let them play in a street at 5, etc. The obvious major stuff. And enough sense (IMO only) to know Aikido is for adults and not kids, just like driving a car is.

Buck,
It's time to slow down a little bit.

It is Mary Eastland's post you are reacting to.
And she asked you whether you had Parented a 13 year old , not dated one.

Please read my posts again and respond in a PM if there is something that you still care to discuss.

Jen

.

Buck

09-30-2008, 08:59 PM

Buck,
It's time to slow down a little bit.

It is Mary Eastland's post you are reacting to.
And she asked you whether you had Parented a 13 year old , not dated one.

Please read my posts again and respond in a PM if there is something that you still care to discuss.

Jen

.

Slow down in scrolling due to all the posts, yes. It's a long thread. I read yours and then Mary's and the rest is history. No, I don't have anything to discuss or repond to your comments. I already mixed you up with Mary once and wagged my finger unjustly at you because I mixed up you and Mary already once. It seems I did it again. I mix up women all the time, it takes only two beers :hypno: . Sorry.

I wish I could correct the problem, and replace your name with Mary's. But like mixing up two women once that mistake is made there is no way it will ever be fixed. Thanks Jen for bring that to my attention.

jennifer paige smith

10-01-2008, 11:04 AM

I wish I could correct the problem, and replace your name with Mary's. But like mixing up two women once that mistake is made there is no way it will ever be fixed.

Yeah, but I'd still be Jen and gosh that would be confusing...

jennifer paige smith

10-02-2008, 12:33 AM

Yeah, but I'd still be Jen and gosh that would be confusing...

A little help. Anyone?

Mark Uttech

10-02-2008, 04:50 AM

Onegaishimasu. Confusion is not always bad. It means an encounter with some new situation.

In gassho,

Mark

Guilty Spark

10-06-2008, 09:35 AM

There will always be sheep. There will always be wolves. There will always be sheep dogs. Which are you?

The shepherd ;)

lmj59601

10-22-2008, 11:43 PM

Clint George did not have an angry ex girlfriend. He had a wonderful wife and children that he has destroyed as well as the victim. There is absolutely no justification for his behavior. It makes me really sick to my stomach to read people write about young girls in other countries marrying when they are underage. We do not live in a third world country. He is a 49 year old grown man and she was 11 when she started aikido classes. He was a wonderful teacher and touched many people's lives, including my own and our family. He also has torn them apart and there is no going back. No excuses. Men are not legally or morally supposed to be with underage children in this country. My 13 year old took private lessons from him and I was very scared that something may have happened. He is very lucky it did not. Please stop with the justifications and the excuses. He is human, but what he did was completely and utterly wrong. He lost everything in his life and then did it AGAIN. He is a sick person.

L\

Thank you , Mary.
I agree that we tend to jump to conclusions when dealing with this type of discussion because it hits so close to home with so many of us. I am a father. It brings tears to my eyes to think of these things because I know how I would feel if it were my child this was happening to. I have seen the effects of sexual abuse in two very close members of my family. It changes people sometimes to the point that they can no longer function in a real, trusting interpersonal relationship with another human being. It can literally steal someones life by crippling every relationship they have or will ever have. And in my mind ranks it right up there with murder. I also agree that it is nonsense to say that a 13 year old girl can be even partially responsible for something like this taking place. To argue that line of thinking is like trusting someone to train your dog, learning that while under the care of this person he died from severe organ failure caused by the ingestion of antifreeze, finding out that he was purposely and methodically poisoned and then blaming the dog for drinking the antifreeze. A child is not equipped to decide for themselves whether or not to enter into a sexual relationship with anyone any more than a dog is capable of knowing that antifreeze will kill him. So, horse hockey.

When I said that Mr. George could very well be the victim it was not meant to imply that any of the blame be placed on the young lady involved. What I meant was that we have so little knowledge about what actually happened that, for all we know, this could have been started by the girl's uncle who just so happened to be a local law enforcement officer who, also happened to be the ex-husband of George's present girlfriend, who being bitter about the details of his divorce decided to abuse his authority to get back at his ex and Mr. George by fabricating a story of alleged abuse of his position in the dojo to have an inappropriate relationship with one of his underage students. I doubt that I am even close to what really happened but then again no one really knows.

I'm with Mary on this guys. As many people have noted here, whether he did it or not, his life as he knew it will never be the same and I'm betting for the worse. I'm sure we can all see how devastating something like this is to someone's life; guilty or not. How would you feel if you knew that the majority of the Aikido community were reading a thread about an article in the newspaper accusing you of some heinous crime and being powerless to tell your side - especially if you were innocent! I'm glad its not me and I don't mean that in a malicious way.

I am really interested though, to hear more of everyone's thoughts on this. Specifically, how to guard our children from predators and more literature on the subject. Thank you all for the input.
Jason

Marc Kupper

10-24-2008, 02:32 AM

Clint George gets a 20-year sentence, with 15 of those years suspended, on charges of felony sexual assault for inappropriately touching a 13-year old former student at the Aikido studio he owned in Helena. http://www.helenair.com/articles/2008/10/23/top/52lo_081023_aikido.txt and also a much larger article with pictures at http://www.helenair.com/articles/2008/10/24/top/top/50lo_081024_aikido.txt

aikidoc

10-24-2008, 08:45 AM

Sad destruction of one's life.

Peter Goldsbury

10-24-2008, 09:31 AM

Sad destruction of one's life.

No, John.

Consider The Shawshank Redemption.

Best,

PAG

10-24-2008, 02:04 PM

Buck

10-24-2008, 11:22 PM

Well I guess the court and other support his type of "love." :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck:

It shames me to be an Aikidoka. :(

LLY

10-25-2008, 02:48 AM

Phillip- Maybe you are ashamed to be a human being also???
It is just weird to me that you would say because of what Clint has done, that you are now ashamed to be an aikidoka.

I have not read every single post of this thread, but have gotten a good feel of the majority of the feelings here.
What comes to mind is that classic Bible story that is played around Easter or Christmas on TV and I guess also in the scene from the movie The Last Temptation of Christ, where the townspeople are throwing rocks at the prostitute and Jesus steps up to defend her...And asks if all the rock throwers are so perfect and never done anything wrong in their lives?
I am not wanting to make excuses for Clint's actions but in no way also feel I know all the facts of the story to even try to judge him. I have met Clint and taken seminars with him and have always respected and admired him for who he was and what he had accomplished in life as an aikidoist spending alot of time in Japan.
He made a mistake, had wrong judgement yada yada yada...Who are we to pass judgment on him? I am sure he is going thru his own process and it must be hell.
One of the important messages that I think aikido is about is polishing one's own stone and concentrating on one's own life and how to perfect it, make it better, making the world better.
One of my pet peeves on the mat is when partners I am practicing with, feel the need to correct me instead of just concentrating on their own practice and allowing me to explore or be with whatever I am working on and thru.
Is this like a western male ego phenomenon??? (Sorry, usually it is a male who feels the need to correct.)
My very first aikido teacher was Sensei Katsuharu Nakazono in Santa Fe, NM in the 80s and he made it very clear that students were not to correct each other on the mat, because he was the sensei and teacher and also the possibility that you did not even know the 'correct' way and would thus be showing someone it the wrong way. Basically, concentrate and pay attn. to your own stuff, not on other's mistakes or your interpretation of. Or just don't interfere with their process.
Anyways, back to Clint and to tie my male ego mat story to my point about Clint....Who Made Us The Judge? Are our lives so perfect and proud that we can judge him?
I am amazed how many people have cast judgment on him. Yeah, he should of known better or he was the adult or he abused his teacher status...
Yes, agreed but we are all humans and make mistakes. Mistakes happen and we hopefully learn from them.
Is there someone here, who can say that they never did anything horribly wrong that they wished they could of taken back? Anyone with no regrets, zero mistakes in their past, anyone truly perfect and on their way to becoming a God?
Hey, even Gurus falter, afterall they are human too.
My opinion has not changed about Clint since this incident. What has upset me is how so many people condemn him and liken him to a predator now. I question whether the true sense or philosophy of aikido is really grasped at all.

Charles Hill

10-25-2008, 03:43 AM

Hi Loni,

First of all, I basically agree with most of what you wrote.

With that in mind, with all due respect to you, are you not judging others here?

Also, a court of law has decided that yes, Mr. George is a sexual predator. He will now have that label the rest of his life. He will have to register with local law enforcement anytime he moves into a new area and his name will be made available to the local citizens. This was likely all taken into consideration by that court of law. Do you think the "system" has failed Mr. George?

In the early 90's I contemplated moving to Shingu to train and asked around about it. The consistent response I got was that Clint George is a standup guy, a wonderful person. I, too, think the Biblical story is appropriate. I also see that a court of law decided that Mr. George made some very bad decisions and worries that he is capable of making them again.

sincerely
Charles

gdandscompserv

10-25-2008, 08:23 AM

I hope Clint writes a book.

gdandscompserv

10-25-2008, 08:27 AM

What is really sad is not that he destroyed his own life, but that he has irrevocably damaged the lives of innocent people and their families. Adding insult to injury is the suspension of 15 years of the sentence.
I think that probably happened as a result of him cooperating with law enforcement officials.
He still has a life sentence as a "sexual predator" in the eye of the public though.

Buck

10-25-2008, 10:38 AM

I am ashamed of that fact that now the court has slapped him on the wrist. Why do we have such laws that are suppose to protect children? But yet a shoplifter who steals clothing or food doesn't go to rehab, they go to jail. Like the 80+ year old lady who keep a football thrown in her yard gets arrested and thrown in jail. Or the 7 year old child who pushed another kid on the play ground gets arrested and is convicted of assault and battery. Yet a 50+ year old man who is a child molester gets nothing more than a finger shook at him.

He is a well know Aikidoka, who was convicted of a crime, and darn nears walk out free. Should I jump up and down in joy, like those in the Michael Jackson case? O'Sensei when he talked about love, I doubt very much he meant that criminals should go with out being punished properly.

Lest we forget O'Sensei was Japanese in Japan. He was not a hippy smoking dope and having "love ins" rebelling against the 1950's social structure of the American way of life on Height and Height. He was a martial artist, in mist of a Japanese social change, he was not a Yukio Mishima visionary; that is what O'Sensei was trying to change, and not the America.

He used Aikido in a shameful and disgusting way to exercise his crime against a child. He abuse Aikido as well. Because of his position, he high level profile and involvement in Aikido he puts a stink now on Aikido. Aikido isn't about a place where child molestation is acceptable, O'Sensei's idea of love about child molestation. I am not proud that someone has done such things, this isn't why I started Aikido. I don't not want to be associated with such a disgusting crime or in any way show my approval. Or support the court turning a blind eye.

Btw, you don't think Clint George will try and resume this relationship any chance he gets...until she is "too old that is." Then it will be someone else's child?

Cynrod

10-25-2008, 10:38 AM

I really don't know Clint personally and I really don't know what happened? I am speechless and I don't know what to say.

Buck

10-25-2008, 03:46 PM

O'Sensei's idea of love about child molestation.

O'Sensei's idea of love isn't about child molestation. Is what I meant.

It seems there are enablers in this case, including the court. I want to make clear that I am not an enabler. My sympathies go out to the victim, the victim's family, the people in Clint's life that had no idea what was going on. The Aikidoka that looked up to him and had no idea what he was hiding.

He is clearly sick, and needs professional help, but he also needs to serve a good amount of time for his crime- maybe not the maximum sentence.

By serving time it is letting him and others know society doesn't tolerate his actions. That society (at least in theory should) protects its children.

Love is protecting kids for harm and from predators. Love is being honest in your marriage and to your kids. Love is being honest to your friends and those who look up to you. Love doesn't mean having an inappropriate relationship between a 50+ year old man and a 13 year old girl calling it love. Why isn't these things associated to love when Aikido love is talked about?

Joe McParland

10-25-2008, 04:47 PM

With that in mind, with all due respect to you, are you not judging others here?

Stepping into the muck with you and showing you the way out? That's a tenkan.

Standing on the side of the tar pit and yelling, "Hey! Look at yourself! You're late for practice!!" hoping you'll pull yourself out? That's an irimi.

AikiWeb, a dojo constrained to using words, seems to have a natural preference for the verbose tenkan as well as an aversion for the succinct irimi.

Also, a court of law has decided that yes, Mr. George is a sexual predator. [...] I also see that a court of law decided that Mr. George made some very bad decisions and worries that he is capable of making them again.

Clinten Jay George, who was 49 at the time of the incident was designated a "tier one" sex offender, meaning that he is considered unlikely to reoffend.

"Offender," not "predator." Wasn't there something in the more detailed news releases saying that the fellow does not display predatory or pedophilial tendencies?

Words are powerful things. Use them with care.

Buck

10-25-2008, 07:01 PM

"Offender," not "predator." Wasn't there something in the more detailed news releases saying that the fellow does not display predatory or pedophilial tendencies?

Words are powerful things. Use them with care.

Yes, words are very powerful, they can take something very serious and make it sound if it was really nothing at all, the art of double speak comes to mind. For the best example of this, that I can think of is Journalism. Many professions have double speak such as corporate moguls trying to explain themselves under testimony why they ruined the economy. And the Micheal Jackson interviews.

Yes, words are very powerful, they can make a horrible act like child molestation and make it sound so romantically innocent to persuade others it is a normal thing and nothing wrong happened. eventhough it also is intended to discredit and dehumanize the victims. Thus, allowing evil (no religious connotations*) people to escape blame and responsiblity for their unlawful actions. Like the Micheal Jackson interviews and his trial, and all his enabling supporters.

*someone will jump on it am sure.

No one can persuade me that Clint George didn't commit a crime and got a finger wagged at him for it. Or that there are enablers out there supporting him because he was well known in the Aikido community. If anyone should be supported besides the victim, (in double speak the "incontinent ordnance", the "collateral damage.") is his wife and family. See how that double speak works.

Joe McParland

10-25-2008, 09:05 PM

No one can persuade me that Clint George didn't commit a crime and got a finger wagged at him for it. Or that there are enablers out there supporting him because he was well known in the Aikido community. If anyone should be supported besides the victim, (in double speak the "incontinent ordnance", the "collateral damage.") is his wife and family. See how that double speak works.

I do not know what is and what is not true in this case.

I do not know what led to the situation, I do not know what went into the judgment, and I do not know what will come from it all.

No belief to defend. No agenda to drive me. No need to raise images of Michael Jackson, corporate moguls destroying the economy, collateral damage, or anything else to make a point. Life is easier this way.

Try it. Or, don't.

Charles Hill

10-25-2008, 11:21 PM

No belief to defend. No agenda to drive me. No need to raise images of Michael Jackson, corporate moguls destroying the economy, collateral damage, or anything else to make a point. Life is easier this way..

And yet you post here. Was there no belief, no agenda compelling you to post?

The court saw fit to sentence Mr. George. How could that be if those involved thought he was unlikely to reoffend?

What is your definition of "predator" vs. "offender"? Not a newspaper reporters definition, yours.

Personally, I find your use of metaphors, nominalizations, personifications, sentences without clear subjects and objects seems to rob your words of any power. But then again, I am not even sure to whom you are addressing. (How's that for a verbose tenkan!)

Charles

Joe McParland

10-26-2008, 12:39 AM

And yet you post here. Was there no belief, no agenda compelling you to post?

I breathe without an agenda, too.

The court saw fit to sentence Mr. George. How could that be if those involved thought he was unlikely to reoffend?

Mr. George did what he did. The court did what it did. I do not know the mind of either, so why ask me?

What is your definition of "predator" vs. "offender"? Not a newspaper reporters definition, yours.

These are legal and psychological terms; they are not defined by me. The legal system classified the man as a sex offender, and, if I recall correctly, a psychiatrist or a psychologist involved in the sentencing decision noted that the man was likely neither a predator nor a pedophile. These items were recorded by a reporter and published by a newspaper. I'm sure you can find the references if you find these matters are important to you.

Personally, I find your use of metaphors, nominalizations, personifications, sentences without clear subjects and objects seems to rob your words of any power. But then again, I am not even sure to whom you are addressing.

You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you.

By the way, your sentence, "But then again, I am not even sure to whom you are addressing," has a grammatical mistake.

(How's that for a verbose tenkan!)

Verbose---alas, no tenkan.

Buck

10-26-2008, 11:44 AM

It is evident with the sentencing of Clint George, a once illustrious Aikidoka who has been convicted of a crime against a child, has now fallen into infamy. It was something that has shocked, saddened and heart-breaking for a ton of people. A distressing thing that let down so many because he wasn't what he said he was at all. He lied and hid his illness to so many that loved, liked and trusted him. His selfish immoral actions go beyond the minor errors and ills experienced by most.

Despite my objections to his sentencing-I think is far too light for his crime-there really is no need to continue on with this thread.

Maybe a new thread should be started about his criminal sentence, rehab and other disputes.

Joe McParland

10-26-2008, 12:13 PM

A distressing thing that let down so many because he wasn't what he said he was at all.

Is it that he is not what he said he was---assuming, for the sake of argument, that he ever made such a statement---or is it that you believed he was something other than he was?

This is a simple question. To some it relates directly to a core objective of aikido training: masakatsu agatsu.

observer

10-26-2008, 02:19 PM

observer

10-26-2008, 04:09 PM

Hmm .. I am sorry. "A few years ago", of course.

Buck

10-26-2008, 05:14 PM

Is it that he is not what he said he was---assuming, for the sake of argument, that he ever made such a statement---or is it that you believed he was something other than he was?

This is a simple question. To some it relates directly to a core objective of aikido training: masakatsu agatsu.

I don't believe/believed. Therefore there is no question simple or complex. Their is no objective to throw around in a romper-room that bounces abstracts around like a college philosphy 101 class.

This thread is dead.

ChrisMoses

10-27-2008, 11:02 AM

The best, what we can do, is to stop to talk about the case, and forget the person forever. It was a very similar case, a view years ago, than a very known instructor intentionally hurt his partner during a public event.

No, that would be the WORST thing we could do. Don't talk about it? Forget? This is exactly why I started this thread, because not talking about it and forgetting the person is NOT the right way to handle this.

gdandscompserv

10-27-2008, 12:27 PM

Ron Tisdale

10-27-2008, 03:38 PM

Hi Loni,

Do you have kids? Would you let your kids train with him, knowing what you know now?

If not, that would be a judgement, wouldn't it?

Best,
Ron

Keith Larman

10-27-2008, 04:22 PM

No, that would be the WORST thing we could do. Don't talk about it? Forget? This is exactly why I started this thread, because not talking about it and forgetting the person is NOT the right way to handle this.

Absolutely.

Those who talk about religious parables like "he who is without sin" miss the point. This isn't about tossing rocks at Mr. George. This isn't about asking to personally whack him with a bokken. What it is about is raising awareness of how these sorts of things come about. How they can and do happen. And how they so often happen in some sense at least in plain sight. So we can hopefully be better able to prevent it from happening again.

It has happened before this. It will happen again after this. The question is whether we close our eyes, plug our ears and bury our collective heads in the sand saying "we should just train and judge not..." or if we're going to closely examine ourselves and the world around us to make sure it won't/can't happen in our own corner of the world. It is an ugly thing, uncomfortable to talk about, difficult to deal with. But there is more peril in ignoring it or waving it away with pontifications or worse yet the bizarre non-sequitors by a few who post.

Joe McParland

10-27-2008, 04:57 PM

Absolutely.

Those who talk about religious parables like "he who is without sin" miss the point. This isn't about tossing rocks at Mr. George. This isn't about asking to personally whack him with a bokken. What it is about is raising awareness of how these sorts of things come about. How they can and do happen. And how they so often happen in some sense at least in plain sight. So we can hopefully be better able to prevent it from happening again.

Hmmm...

Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Misnomer or non sequitor?

Keith Larman

10-27-2008, 05:06 PM

Speak of the devil...

observer

10-27-2008, 06:12 PM

No, that would be the WORST thing we could do.
No, that man never has existed in our akido community. We do not have instructors who hurt their students. This discussion is over. Please do not try to convince us that we do not care about a healthy environment around us. It is paranoia. Isn't it?

Fred Little

10-27-2008, 07:13 PM

Mark Uttech

10-27-2008, 07:44 PM

Onegaishimasu. The title of this thread alone tells us of news that is disturbing. And as the discussion went, it was. The subject still is. When things like this make us more aware, this is something good.

In gassho,

Mark

observer

10-27-2008, 08:56 PM

If you ever had in mind the subject, that is a problem. Be aware. This is my point.

Buck

10-27-2008, 10:01 PM

If you ever had in mind the subject, that is a problem. Be aware. This is my point.

My I.Q. isn't 125. So correct me if I am misunderstanding you. is your point that if we discuss child molestation, i.e. Clint George's actions, we are thus thinking about it, and therefore, it is the same thing as what Clint George did?

Or that people who think like Clint George, indulging mentally in the same actions, are a problem?

:confused:

observer

10-27-2008, 11:52 PM

You missed my point. I am sorry.

Ron Tisdale

10-28-2008, 04:25 PM

Yah, we know we missed it...

We are asking you to explain it, if it wouldn't be too much trouble...

Best,
Ron (can't believe I'm with Phil here, but hey, it happens...;))

ChrisMoses

10-29-2008, 12:14 PM

No, that man never has existed in our akido community. We do not have instructors who hurt their students. This discussion is over. Please do not try to convince us that we do not care about a healthy environment around us. It is paranoia. Isn't it?

The problem is that there is an assumption in many Aikido circles that the seniors in that group are better and more moral human beings because of their senior role in Aikido. That means that many things that might send up red flags in another setting are ignored, forgiven or simply not noticed in the context of the dojo (Aikido certainly isn't unique here, just see the clergy scandals, a very similar situation). This seems to be especially true with newer students, younger students and parents. No one is saying this is going on everywhere. I think many of us are saying that this is quite obviously something that *can* happen anywhere and so as parents and students it's up to each of us to be aware. Not paranoid, not on a witch hunt, just aware that it's possible.

This thread is not about casting stones, it's about raising awareness so that this kind of thing is a little bit less likely to happen in the future.

Demetrio Cereijo

10-29-2008, 11:07 PM

johnbrandt

12-15-2008, 09:10 PM

Christian Moses wrote:
"
The problem is that there is an assumption in many Aikido circles that the seniors in that group are better and more moral human beings because of their senior role in Aikido."

I couldn't agree more. Let us remember that even Mr. Ueshiba was just a man. His achievements in martial arts may not have made him worthy of the hush tones of reverence that I have heard many employ when discussing him.

While we all admire great achievement, we must maintain perspective to the end of disallowing any abuse by one in a position of power, regardless of how they attained that power.

LLY

12-19-2008, 02:24 AM

Hi Loni,

Do you have kids? Would you let your kids train with him, knowing what you know now?

If not, that would be a judgement, wouldn't it?

Best,
Ron

Hi Ron,
Yes, I do have a daughter. She is 20 now. When I first started aikido, she came with me many nights to the dojo with me as I was single mom-ming it.
Yes, I would let her train with him, knowing what I know now. But she has no interest in aikido or martial arts.
Yes, I myself would still train with him on the mat.
I don't feel like my experience of Clint is any different. Yes, he made a huge mistake and bad error in judgement.
I think to some degree we all have our stuff or karma to work out in our current lifetime this time around.

SmilingNage

12-19-2008, 08:39 AM

I 've followed this thread since its inception, but couldn't find the words to match the general disgust I have for what has transpired. With that being said, time and time again during this whole poor unfortunate event, Mr George has continued to show his inability to exercise restraint or any form of judgement but bad judgement. I am perplexed and find it almost inconceivable that anyone would trust their daughter to train with this individual. Forgiveness is one thing, but to be blind by the obvious facts that Mr George's behavior ,to date, has shown he cant be trusted with young woman when alone with them, I just cant find any other word other than reckless. I "might" be able to forgive him, but trust him with a young woman never, ever, ever, ever. Its just not worth the chance, and I find hard to believe that anyone would place themselves or their daughters, or their loved one in harm's way on purpose. The man has a problem, don't allow a false sense of confidence, familiarity or borderline bravado cloud your judgement. He needs to be away from teaching, away from contact with young woman. There isnt any rationale argument that would possibly defend allowing a young woman to be alone in his presence again.

Guilty Spark

12-20-2008, 07:18 AM

Hi Ron,
Yes, I do have a daughter. She is 20 now. When I first started aikido, she came with me many nights to the dojo with me as I was single mom-ming it.
Yes, I would let her train with him, knowing what I know now. But she has no interest in aikido or martial arts.
Yes, I myself would still train with him on the mat.
I don't feel like my experience of Clint is any different. Yes, he made a huge mistake and bad error in judgement.
I think to some degree we all have our stuff or karma to work out in our current lifetime this time around.

Wow. Give your head a shake.

George S. Ledyard

12-20-2008, 09:06 PM

Yes, he made a huge mistake and bad error in judgement.
"Error in judgment" is what they call it when they get caught. The error was in thinking / hoping they wouldn't. I am sorry... when someone manipulates the balance sheet of a company, lies about doing it, costs people their savings and their jobs he always says he made an "error in judgment". As if that mitigates an intentional act of a criminal and harmful nature. It's not an error in judgment, it's an intentional criminal act.

Now there might be some debate about the "intentional" nature of the crime in question. Some would say that a compulsion such as this isn't really intentional, that it is a from of mental illness. George Sensei has a great wife and child as well as step child. He had a group of people who attempted to help him after the first incident. He kissed it all off and violated the terms of his bail agreement. Intentional or not, it wasn't an "error in judgment". There was no judgment at all involved. To say so minimizes the seriousness of what has occurred.

Terms like this can be insidious. We all make "errors in judgment". Saying Clint George has made an "error in judgment" makes it seem that he is just like us or that we are like him. But the fact is that most of us do not commit acts that are both illegal, harmful to a minor victim, and destructive to our friends and family. Sure we are all flawed beings. But there are lines you do not cross. Most of us never cross them nor is it particularly difficult not to.

I think to some degree we all have our stuff or karma to work out in our current lifetime this time around.

Yes, we are all working out our karmic inheritance. But part of that "working out" is dealing with the consequences of our actions. When someone is in denial about the seriousness of his actions and can't really comprehend the damage done to those who love him, the "working through his karma" is experiencing the results of his actions. That can be jail time, it may mean estrangement from his family, the loss of a lifetime practice, virtual shunning by his community of peers.

As I have said before, Clint was a friend of mine. I am vastly distressed by his actions. But it is a misunderstanding of the idea of "karuna" or compassion to forgive the actions and go on as before. That is exactly how Bruce Klickstein got away with abusing minor girls in his Aikido classes for a decade or so. He too was confronted at various times and each time he pleaded "error in judgment" and promised never to do it again. The victims piled up over ten years until they finally became aware of each other. The folks that had been so compassionate and forgiving had to deal with the fact that their forgiveness had allowed him to continue predating. Now THAT was an error in judgment.

I have expressed my sorrow that this has happened. I am very sorry that he has to go through this and have told him so. But he does have to go through it. No one else brought this on him. It is his karma and he will work through it or not. I can have compassion for him but I cannot keep him from the consequences of his actions nor do I wish to. It is the people who have loved and supported him only to be devastated that I would keep from all of this but I can't even do that.

If Clint has been working through his old stuff, he has just created a mass of karmic consequences which will carry him through to the next lifetime I would expect.

B.J.M.

12-21-2008, 10:38 AM

Well said Ledyard sensei.

Very well said.

lmj59601

01-01-2009, 11:54 PM

It might help to look up the definition of sexual predator, because that is what the actions Clint has done define him as. Mistakes made when we are careless or distracted or desparate....not when we are teachers of young children. He made choices, over and over again, to violate the law, the trust of his students and family and friends, and of the community. These are not mistakes......we have to protect our children...a 13 year old is a child, not a mistake.

Keith Larman

01-12-2010, 08:35 AM

As a summary and as a follow up to this, Clint George is out of prison and now in Missoula, Montana. If you search the Official Montana Offenders database ( http://www.doj.mt.gov/svor/search.asp ) his record shows his sentencing date as 10/28/2008. Conviction was for one count of Sexual Assault. Victim age is listed as 13 at the time of the assault.

Original article about the arrest: http://www.helenair.com/news/article_9b763737-3478-5db9-81ae-6b46f7853cc4.html

Story about contact with the victim after the arrest: http://www.helenair.com/news/local/article_ad7cf46a-b1a2-5cab-9c13-77c09502541f.html

Story about his sentence: http://www.helenair.com/news/local/article_c3ff9bea-f787-5f44-ae12-e29fb9787a7d.html

aikidoc

01-12-2010, 09:05 AM

He had a 20 year sentence of which 15 was supsended and he's out already? Must be good behavior. My concern-recidivism rate on pedophiles is extremely high.

Keith Larman

01-12-2010, 09:21 AM

He had a 20 year sentence of which 15 was supsended and he's out already? Must be good behavior. My concern-recidivism rate on pedophiles is extremely high.

According to the news stories the examining psychologist felt his likelihood of repeating was low (hence his status in the database as an unlikely repeat offender). However, that position strikes me at best as odd when you consider George reportedly met with the girl a number of times after his arrest in violation of court order.

But yeah, 20 year sentence, 15 suspended, 1 year served.

aikidoc

01-12-2010, 09:57 AM

I agree. He's already demonstrated recidivism after being ordered to stay away. At least 4 times according to the girl.

Marc Abrams

01-12-2010, 02:04 PM

According to the news stories the examining psychologist felt his likelihood of repeating was low (hence his status in the database as an unlikely repeat offender). However, that position strikes me at best as odd when you consider George reportedly met with the girl a number of times after his arrest in violation of court order.

But yeah, 20 year sentence, 15 suspended, 1 year served.

Keith:

Your observations and opinions are one's that I share. The examining psychologist spoke of some kind of profile for a pedophile. There simply is no good research that indicates a "profile" of a pedophile. Mental health professionals do not have any special predictive capacities. Simple fact is that the best predictor of future behavior is a pattern of past behaviors. The examining psychologist spoke of Mr. George as being "immature." As a fellow psychologist, I find that description lacking in multiple areas.

Based upon his history, I think that it is safe to say that he should not be around and/or communicate (any medium) with pre-teen girls and older without some responsible adult oversight. Prison time is not going to "cure" what ails him, nor will it help him become more "mature." The consequences of his actions have certainly caused well-deserved havoc in his life. For what ever the reason(s), the judge decided to give him essentially a slap on the wrist. The stigma of being a convicted child sex offender will follow him around for the rest of his life. The threat of finishing out his sentence is another incentive to fix his life. All and all, it is a sad chapter in the life of someone with a lot of promise in our world. Hopefully, all involved can experience some genuine healing from this horrible incident.

Marc Abrams

aikidoc

01-12-2010, 03:12 PM

Immature! At 51? Perhaps living in Japan under a different culture retarded his maturity socially and psychologically. I do hope he doesn't relapse.

gdandscompserv

01-12-2010, 03:40 PM

I don't get the 'fascination' people seem to have for pedophiles in general and Clint in particular.

Rob Watson

01-12-2010, 05:05 PM

I don't get the 'fascination' people seem to have for pedophiles in general and Clint in particular.

Got any children? Not fascination but great concern. Aikido is for the development of better folks with mature personalities. Given the history of Mr. George one wonders if this case proves aikido to be a complete failure.

I've got a pedophile living around the corner and I am not fascinated but concerned and keep a good look out.

Keith Larman

01-12-2010, 06:13 PM

I don't get the 'fascination' people seem to have for pedophiles in general and Clint in particular.

Let's see... Nine year old daughter at home. I teach Aikido to children. I'm on an advisory board for my daughter's school for student safety. And I've seen the effects of childhood abuse on more than one close friend.

Fascination? I'm glad it's not something you need to worry about. But it isn't some sort of salacious interest. It is something of great concern to some people.

David Maidment

01-12-2010, 06:24 PM

I don't get the 'fascination' people seem to have for pedophiles in general and Clint in particular.

I'll second that. But for the reason of there being no shades of grey in peoples' minds where it concerns 'paedophiles' (I find it very annoying for example, that someone who has consensual sex with a teenager just under the age limit is tarnished with the brush of a predator who abducts and abuses every child who isn't locked safely away). Someone who had an inappropriate thing for one individual is not automatically an unstoppable rapist.

David Maidment

01-12-2010, 06:36 PM

Keith: Sorry, I saw your post before it was gone. Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about this case. Just in general.

aikidoc

01-12-2010, 06:46 PM

Concern because they have a very high repeat rate.

lbb

01-12-2010, 08:42 PM

I don't get the 'fascination' people seem to have for pedophiles in general and Clint in particular.

I think it's because they cross a line that, for most people, is an unthinkable taboo.

(with that said, and not to open another can of worms, we are encouraging a certain amount of built-in craziness by referring to people who are 17 years and 11 months old as "children" -- and we certainly do, when it suits our purpose. Our current model of age-of-consent laws allows no real graceful transition from the official status of "immature person who is not ready for sexual relationships" to "person who can give consent to anything, woohoo!". If we want to solve a bunch of problems, some day we really oughta rethink that)

01-12-2010, 09:52 PM

No law can ever quite cover all the grey areas of life, but some shading is possible.

Here in Canada, the legal age of consent was recently raised from 14 to 16. Also, a 12 or 13 year old can consent to sexual activity with someone no more than two years older and 14 and 15 year olds can consent to sexual activity with someone no more than 5 years older.

As a side note, the legal age of adulthood in Canada (at least in Quebec) in 18. That is the age you can vote, sign contracts and drink alcohol (in Quebec at least).

I think it's because they cross a line that, for most people, is an unthinkable taboo.

(with that said, and not to open another can of worms, we are encouraging a certain amount of built-in craziness by referring to people who are 17 years and 11 months old as "children" -- and we certainly do, when it suits our purpose. Our current model of age-of-consent laws allows no real graceful transition from the official status of "immature person who is not ready for sexual relationships" to "person who can give consent to anything, woohoo!". If we want to solve a bunch of problems, some day we really oughta rethink that)

Keith Larman

01-12-2010, 11:14 PM

Keith: Sorry, I saw your post before it was gone. Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about this case. Just in general.

No problem.

Keith Larman

01-12-2010, 11:52 PM

Michael Fitzgerald

01-13-2010, 01:24 AM

I just can't resist.
it is a travesty.

Marc Abrams

01-13-2010, 09:13 AM

WRT age of consent...

That is an area that will never find full resolution. With emotional and physical development being so varied from one person to the next there will obviously be variation and times when the rules will "not be fair". However, society does have a vested interest in protecting minors and as such has to set boundaries legally to allow for redress for bad behavior. As already noted many jurisdictions have rules that are "flexible" depending on the relative ages of those involved. anyone here want to argue for an exception for 13-year-olds with 49-year-olds? Heck, there are girls who don't even start puberty until 12 or 13.

Obviously there will *always* be an arbitrary aspect to "drawing a line". But society needs to draw those lines because of things like this. Yes, we hope our police and prosecutors will use good judgement (which is not always guaranteed) and various jurisdictions have flexibility in the laws with respect to relative ages of the participants. And of course there is the point that a girl that's almost 18 is legally off limits but a day later things change completely. Of course that's not how her emotional development works. And of course things will get difficult if you have an older person hooking up with a mature 17-year-old. But again we're getting into what we used to call the "muddy middle" areas.

But all that said, all those exceptions and considerations are totally irrelevant in this case, neh? She was 5 years shy of 18. Not a few months. Not a year. It's not even considered late for a girl to start puberty at 13. And he most certainly wasn't 18 or 19. He was 49. 36 years older.

So sure, I agree that there is a difficult question involved in these type of policy issues. And I would argue that there is no solution that would work in all cases. But in *this* case, I don't see much grey area at all.

Anyway... I revived the thread with the idea of posting something indicating the closure of the topic. Others said and I agreed that we should tread softly in this particular case as we were not privy to all that had happened. But now we have a record of the newspaper articles as well as the public record available on-line.

He was convicted of sexual assault. One count. The victim was 13 at the time. He was 49. He was sentenced to 20 years, 15 suspended, served 1. Currently living in Montana.

All those facts are a matter of public record.

I will add that the good thing that happened as a result of this were some serious discussions at our headquarters. And some revisions and tightening up of our attitudes and policies. Always have two adults in classes. No one needs to be alone with a child for everyones' protection. And remember that the person who does bad things isn't necessarily the creepy guy hiding behind a tree. Sometimes the absolute worst offenders are the last people you'd suspect which is why they are some of the worst -- they can get away with it and they'll always have their defenders who just can't fathom that they could do such things.

None of this means you treat everyone like a child molester. But it does mean that you keep your eyes open and pay attention.

Keith:

As a result of this incident and an incident with Stephen Toyoda, my school drafted a tight policy as well. Parents are actually given a copy of the policy so that they are aware that this policy is in place to protect both the children and the instructors.

I conduct psychological evaluations for the courts on a full-time basis. I was particularly disturbed by the characterization and findings of the evaluating psychologist that Mr. George was being "immature" and used the relationship with a minor to prop up his "self-esteem." Heck, I have no problem and actually enjoy acting "immature" with my friends without having low self-esteem or the desire to engage in such a grossly inappropriate type of relationship. That is a FAR CRY from engaging in the kind of conduct that he engaged in. How is it that a husband and father, who served as a representative for some organizations and was held in high esteem by the Aikido community (in general) needed to have a relationship with a minor in order to build up his self-esteem?

As you correctly noted, this girl was not some "mature", "older-looking" 17 year old girl. This was a 13 year old girl who had been in his school training under him for a while. We simply need to speak to any 13 year old child and note the gross disparity in maturity between us and any child of that age. Calling somebody "immature" and in need of propping up their self-esteem is simply a cop-out in my book that minimizes the truly pathological nature of his actions.

There are numerous people who deserve some real healing as a result of this incident. I for one, would not want Mr. George to be around ANY girls without appropriate "mature" supervision. Recidivism is high because of the entrenched psychopathology that typically underlies these types of behaviors. Simply "growing-up" and becoming "mature" will not minimize the danger of him engaging in this type of conduct again.

Marc Abrams

01-13-2010, 09:48 AM

lbb

01-13-2010, 10:03 AM

However, society does have a vested interest in protecting minors and as such has to set boundaries legally to allow for redress for bad behavior.

That's fine, but if all you've done is create a punishment system for transgressors, you have at best solved half the problem. If society "protects" minors until the day they turn 18, but does nothing to prepare them for adulthood (and sexual relationships are only one aspect of this), you're simply leaving them high and dry the day that legal "protection" runs out.

As already noted many jurisdictions have rules that are "flexible" depending on the relative ages of those involved. anyone here want to argue for an exception for 13-year-olds with 49-year-olds?

Don't go building a strawman -- you know that that's not what I was talking about.

Marc Abrams

01-13-2010, 10:24 AM

Hi Marc
One thing always nags at me with these things. I don't care if the girl was 13 or 16. I have seen girls at 16 or 17 who wanted to explore their sexuality and them being drawn to an older guy (20's and early 30's) and going after them. Now let's add in adult women who are drawn to men with powerful positions in their business circles.
To me the burden is on the the older person or the one with power to have the capacity to understand the situation and quite simply control themselves for the benefit of the other. It seems to me that there is a fundamental lack of caring, a total disregard for the person in the younger or junior role. I don't know where the psychological profile fits in, or even if there is one, but the undercurrent of selfishness, or cold blooded predator like focus (I want, what I want) that bothers me the most.
One friend of mine was seduced by a young secretary and I upbraided him, not only for bragging about it, but for getting involved at all. I told him if he got fired not to come looking to me for support.

I think there is a reason these rules are in place, and it is about placing the personal responsibility looking out for the welfare of others on to the perpetrator. Thus the perp mitigating it with the oldest excuse in the world-"She was mature for her age" fails from the start.
The law recognizes the common good and that the one most able should be the one most responsible doesn't it? Thus placing the burden on them to care for both. None of this is just about sex-I think it is far deeper than that and expresses a foundational lack of caring for anyone but themselves.

Cheers
Dan

Dan:

We do live in a narcissistic society where personal responsibility seems to end with what feels best for my own benefit. I sadly feel that some days we seem to be dinosaurs who truly believe in looking out for the greater good of society.

As a father and grandfather (daughter and grand-daughter - second grand daughter is 1/2 way baked and still in the oven!), the irrational part of me longs for "frontier justice." I do the best I can to help raise a family of caring, morally-responsible individuals, while looking out and helping to protect the community that I live in. These incidents sadden and anger me in that we have a LONG WAY to go in order to help our society do a better job at developing healthier, morally-sound individuals.

As an Aikido instructor, I truly look at budo from a macro perspective. The healthiest and most connected community is the one that is best protected from the inside out. I express this concern and desire regularly in class and have the dojo practice this culture of healthy caring. We just celebrated our third anniversary last weekend. I was delighted to see how the dojo has gelled as a community both inside and outside of the dojo, and was very happy with the amount of food that we collected that I anonymously donate to the local food bank. I hope that my students impact those around them in a similar manner so that we can develop into a healthier society. Unfortunately, I am not holding my breath on that one.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Keith Larman

01-13-2010, 10:27 AM

Mary, I wasn't building a straw man -- no intention whatsoever. I agree it is a complex issue. And I agree we as a society are completely bonkers with respect to most issues sexual. I also agree that we need to do a lot more to ensure our children grow up to be strong, confident, educated, etc. As a society we have done very poorly on these things on many fronts.

The only point I was making on the legal side (which is a very narrow issue in the midst of a much larger problem) is that even though it is very difficult to draw lines that make a lot of sense, they still need to be drawn.

gdandscompserv

01-13-2010, 11:04 AM

Recidivism is high because of the entrenched psychopathology that typically underlies these types of behaviors.
Marc,
Perhaps this is why the subject fascinates people. Would you please expound upon this comment?
Ricky

PShttp://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/01/12/scotus.sex.offender.law/

akiy

01-13-2010, 11:08 AM

Hi folks,

Let's try to steer the discussion back to being directly pertinent to aikido and the original topic. If you wish to discuss a more general topic, please do so in the Open Discussions forum.

Thanks,

-- Jun

OwlMatt

01-13-2010, 11:20 AM

What has given you all permission to make assumptions and justifications of Mr. George's actions?

I'm not assuming; I'm just reading:
On Saturday, a search warrant of George's Helena home was executed. His phone and computer were seized.
Police found 85 emails exchanged between the two.
"The content of the emails and times they are being written related to the ages of the individuals involved did appear to be inappropriate," court documents note.
During an interview Saturday, George told police that the relationship with his student of two years started with hugging and "petting" and had progressed in the last three months, the documents say. The two began inappropriately touching each other through their clothes, he told police.
Unless our source here is entirely making up police reports and court documents out of nowhere, Mr. George is guilty of some very serious crimes and some very serious abuses of his position. Period. No assumption is needed.

I suggest, though, that, rather than judging and condemning a man many of us have never even met, we allow Mr. George to teach us one last lesson: that no level of mastery, no amount of authority, and no number of good intentions will make us morally invincible. Serving as a moral guide for others does not relieve us of the duty to keep an eye on our own moral compasses. Let us not make Mr. George's mistake of becoming blind to our own foibles. Morality, like aikido, is a journey and not a destination; if we are not travelling forward, we are travelling backward.

01-13-2010, 11:30 AM

For the record, my post was meant to show an example of how grey areas can be legislated. Clint's behavior crossed the legal line where he lived, the legal line here and any line I would personnally establish for this type of case.

mathewjgano

01-13-2010, 12:34 PM

I was particularly disturbed by the characterization and findings of the evaluating psychologist that Mr. George was being "immature" and used the relationship with a minor to prop up his "self-esteem."
How is it that a husband and father, who served as a representative for some organizations and was held in high esteem by the Aikido community (in general) needed to have a relationship with a minor in order to build up his self-esteem?
...Calling somebody "immature" and in need of propping up their self-esteem is simply a cop-out in my book that minimizes the truly pathological nature of his actions.

Was this evaluation in any way mitigating the idea that Mr George should be held accountable (such as suggesting he somehow be punished to some lesser extent than allowable by law)? Unless he was somehow developmentally delayed, I don't see how a lack of maturity could be excusable...of course I'm not a lawyer though. Any crime could be viewed as a lack of maturity, couldn't it? Self-esteem issues affect even the most successfull of people, and I believe there's no better way of describing Mr George's behavior than "immature," but I'd be shocked to find out that somehow could provide basis for leniency.

C. David Henderson

01-13-2010, 12:55 PM

mathewjgano

01-13-2010, 01:18 PM

Matt,

Reading between the lines of the article on sentencing Keith attached, it appears the evaluation led to the defendant being adjudged a "tier I" offender, i.e., unlikely to reoffend. That conclusion probably had a big influence on the suspension of 15 years.

cdh

Thanks, David. I didn't scroll back far enough to see that. I believe that's a real shame he seems to have been treated so kindly by the court system. I don't believe jail is the best rehabilitation, but I also believe certain crimes deserve very strict punishment. In my opinion it doesn't sound like Mr George was given the sentence he deserves.

George S. Ledyard

01-13-2010, 01:35 PM

I suggest, though, that, rather than judging and condemning a man many of us have never even met, we allow Mr. George to teach us one last lesson: that no level of mastery, no amount of authority, and no number of good intentions will make us morally invincible.

In point of fact, it is usually quite the opposite. While the spiritual path is admirable, it is not in any way a "normal" one. When a young person gets that focused, that early in life, it does not result in a fully developed.person. Virtually every major spiritual system that came over from the East had major problems with scandals. This was true in the Zen, Tibetan Buddhist, and Yoga communities as well as the martial arts community.

Jack Kornfield, one of the senior Vipassana teachers in the US, talked in one of his books about the fact that when he came back from his years of training in the forest monasteries of SE Asia, the first thing he needed to do was do ten years of therapy. The high level spiritual insights gained from the training did not mean that he had dealt with childhood issues or become an integrated personality. He had relationship problems, etc. just like any other person.

Joko Beck,one of the amazing female Zen teachers here in the states wrote about the lack of connection between "enlightenment" and being a well integrated and balanced personality. You simply cannot assume one leads to the other. I think that people have not really understood this well. Her believe is that the training should perhaps incorporate some work that would address this issue.

Not only does an Aikido teacher get NO training in ethics, transference, etc in preparation for being in his or her exalted position (as any doctor, lawyer, mental health practitioner or other professional, even a massage therapist) but often, the roles models upon whom he might base his behavior were bad. Ellis Amdur writes about this in his book Dueling with O-Sensei at length.

People need to look at their teachers for what they are and no more. Don't assume that just because the person has mastered a certain degree of technical proficiency, this has much bearing at all on his proficiency at being a human being. Don't assume that just because the teacher is a fantastic human being, their Aikido is very good. Technical expertise does not in any way equate to wisdom nor does wisdom necessarily infer technical expertise. Only occasionally do we find a teacher who has both.

Folks need to look at themselves and understand how they try to make their teachers in to something they badly want them to be but really are not. Aside from the devastation when the teacher turns out not to be what you had constructed in your mind it simply isn't good for your own training to put anyone above you in that way. It leads to an acceptance of being below them, technically and as a person. No matter how amazing ones teacher is, the entire point of your own training is when you are going to decide to be amazing yourself...

So, explanations are not excuses but they are needed to understand what and why something happens. That understanding is needed to be able to see what is before you and what is inside you. Only in that way can one not get caught up in the whole web of delusion which causes these types of problems.

thisisnotreal

01-13-2010, 01:55 PM

^^ Extraordinary post. Thank you.

Joko Beck,one of the amazing female Zen teachers here in the states wrote about the lack of connection between "enlightenment" and being a well integrated and balanced personality. You simply cannot assume one leads to the other. I think that people have not really understood this well. Her believe is that the training should perhaps incorporate some work that would address this issue.

This is fascinating.
Wondering aloud: What then is its promise?

Marc Abrams

01-13-2010, 03:30 PM

Not only does an Aikido teacher get NO training in ethics, transference, etc in preparation for being in his or her exalted position (as any doctor, lawyer, mental health practitioner or other professional, even a massage therapist) but often, the roles models upon whom he might base his behavior were bad. Ellis Amdur writes about this in his book Dueling with O-Sensei at length.

George:

A teacher's conference/seminar would be a wonderful idea that could emerge from this topic. Teaching methodologies, technical classes and other areas could be offered along with classes in ethical responsibilities and conduct as a teacher of martial arts. States, including New York State, have come close to licensing martial arts instructors because of patterns of misconduct, unethical, illegal and immoral behaviors. It is a shame that we do not do a better job at educating and monitoring the teachers within our arts.

Marc Abrams

Josh Reyer

01-13-2010, 05:13 PM

This is fascinating.
Wondering aloud: What then is its promise?I would argue that true enlightenment is having a balanced and integrated personality, and if you don't have the latter, you don't have the former. With the further caveat that "enlightenment" is not a switch that gets turned on at one singular point, but a continual process until death.

gdandscompserv

01-13-2010, 05:24 PM

George:

A teacher's conference/seminar would be a wonderful idea that could emerge from this topic. Teaching methodologies, technical classes and other areas could be offered along with classes in ethical responsibilities and conduct as a teacher of martial arts. States, including New York State, have come close to licensing martial arts instructors because of patterns of misconduct, unethical, illegal and immoral behaviors. It is a shame that we do not do a better job at educating and monitoring the teachers within our arts.

Marc Abrams
Ahh, legislating ethics and morality huh? Not usually effective. Mostly, those kinds of things can only be affected at a grassroots level, I think.

Keith Larman

01-13-2010, 05:24 PM

George:

A teacher's conference/seminar would be a wonderful idea that could emerge from this topic. Teaching methodologies, technical classes and other areas could be offered along with classes in ethical responsibilities and conduct as a teacher of martial arts. States, including New York State, have come close to licensing martial arts instructors because of patterns of misconduct, unethical, illegal and immoral behaviors. It is a shame that we do not do a better job at educating and monitoring the teachers within our arts.

Marc Abrams

The very sort of thing that would be best run by trained Psychologists (subtly looking your way). And I hear Mr. Amdur has some experience in this as well... Hmmmm.... (cough). Nudge, nudge, know what I mean?

Yes, something like that would be a marvelous thing to come from something so ugly.

Pat Togher

01-13-2010, 07:07 PM

Ahh, legislating ethics and morality huh? Not usually effective. Mostly, those kinds of things can only be affected at a grassroots level, I think.

Actually, we do this all the time. Doctors, lawyers, architects, engineers, and many other professions are licensed and regulated. Professional ethics is a component of at least some of these licensures. Professional licensure may not catch all the bad apples, but at least there is some mechanism for getting rid of them if they are caught. It's better than having no dog at all watching the sheep.

Pat

dalen7

01-14-2010, 05:36 AM

People need to look at their teachers for what they are and no more. Don't assume that just because the person has mastered a certain degree of technical proficiency, this has much bearing at all on his proficiency at being a human being. Don't assume that just because the teacher is a fantastic human being, their Aikido is very good. Technical expertise does not in any way equate to wisdom nor does wisdom necessarily infer technical expertise. Only occasionally do we find a teacher who has both.

I give you the "FaceBook" thumbs up... :)

- dAlen

gdandscompserv

01-14-2010, 06:36 AM

Actually, we do this all the time. Doctors, lawyers, architects, engineers, and many other professions are licensed and regulated. Professional ethics is a component of at least some of these licensures. Professional licensure may not catch all the bad apples, but at least there is some mechanism for getting rid of them if they are caught. It's better than having no dog at all watching the sheep.

Pat
i thought that's what aikiweb was for.:D

Larry Feldman

01-14-2010, 03:55 PM

It never ceases to amaze me that people think because I can teach them to do shihonage, that I am qualified to advise them on any number of life issues...

gdandscompserv

01-14-2010, 04:34 PM

It never ceases to amaze me that people think because I can teach them to do shihonage, that I am qualified to advise them on any number of life issues...
Excellent point Larry.

Keith Larman

01-14-2010, 05:55 PM

It never ceases to amaze me that people think because I can teach them to do shihonage, that I am qualified to advise them on any number of life issues...

Which is a problem faced by most people in a teaching relationship because the reality is that some *do* think that way. Some will idolize you. Some will also respect you. And maybe someone might even think they're falling in love with you. Of course you may or may not deserve these things. Sometimes it is the very nature of the teaching relationship, a person of ability, doing "amazing" things, being "strong", doing whatever that thing is that is the attraction. The very teaching situation creates a relationship of sorts. One of teacher/student. One of hierarchy. Which can be abused. Or can itself create complications.

So from your "amazes me" comment I'd assume that means you have noticed that it happens regardless of our wishes. That doesn't mean you have to become their therapist, but it might help to know how to deal with that clingy student. Or the student whose infatuation is growing. Or the type of situation where what psych folk call counter transference occurs... There is a reason why most professions require their "professionals" to have some training in those areas. Because it happens.

Teachers of adults, well, I really don't have much of an issue there. If everyone in the room is a grown up by all means do whatever you want. Not the best idea IMHO (I've seen infatuations turn into romances that turned into freaking ugly situations with adults as well in this area), but whatever floats your boat. If everyone is an adult, fine, such is life.

But if you teach children and/or teenagers it might be a good idea to have some idea of how these things happen and how to deal with them if they do.

Or we could just focus on prosecuting the folk who cross the line after the fact and say that's the best we can do.

Pat Togher

01-14-2010, 06:33 PM

i thought that's what aikiweb was for.:D

Indeed ;)

Pat

yankeechick

01-16-2010, 10:52 AM

Keith:

As a result of this incident and an incident with Stephen Toyoda, my school drafted a tight policy as well. Parents are actually given a copy of the policy so that they are aware that this policy is in place to protect both the children and the instructors.

I conduct psychological evaluations for the courts on a full-time basis. I was particularly disturbed by the characterization and findings of the evaluating psychologist that Mr. George was being "immature" and used the relationship with a minor to prop up his "self-esteem." Heck, I have no problem and actually enjoy acting "immature" with my friends without having low self-esteem or the desire to engage in such a grossly inappropriate type of relationship. That is a FAR CRY from engaging in the kind of conduct that he engaged in. How is it that a husband and father, who served as a representative for some organizations and was held in high esteem by the Aikido community (in general) needed to have a relationship with a minor in order to build up his self-esteem?

As you correctly noted, this girl was not some "mature", "older-looking" 17 year old girl. This was a 13 year old girl who had been in his school training under him for a while. We simply need to speak to any 13 year old child and note the gross disparity in maturity between us and any child of that age. Calling somebody "immature" and in need of propping up their self-esteem is simply a cop-out in my book that minimizes the truly pathological nature of his actions.

There are numerous people who deserve some real healing as a result of this incident. I for one, would not want Mr. George to be around ANY girls without appropriate "mature" supervision. Recidivism is high because of the entrenched psychopathology that typically underlies these types of behaviors. Simply "growing-up" and becoming "mature" will not minimize the danger of him engaging in this type of conduct again.

Marc Abrams

I totally agree. This is a case of pedophilia, in my opinion. It seems to me that the over-arching issue here, is how to "regulate" instructor behavior, such that students (in this case chilren) are not abused, violated and preyed upon. Some couple of weeks ago, I posted some questions about a student's concern about unwanted (and possibly) inappropriate sexual attention for an adult.

While an adult is a different issue, the overall issue about putting boundaries around instructor behavior is the same. In this case, the lack thereof, resulted in a criminal behavior and permanent psychological (and emotional) damage to a child. People want to be "non-judgmental" and "even-handed" to the offender, so to speak. However, when one witnesses the damage done to the victim - there are only the facts to contend with.

To respect Jun's request that this be specifically related to aikido, I'll offer this:

One of the major promotional points about aikido, is that it says to protect all involved from what I'll call negative aggressive activities. Also, that aikido is supposed to foster some tiye of beneficent spiritual character or enlightenment, etc. that cannot happen without an HONEST and full discussion about the mindsets, behaviors, disfunctions of the people (in general) and accountability in the dojo.

As a children's sports coach and mentor, this man should NEVER AGAIN be alone with a child. He is a pedophile, period. I believe this protects them both, although my primary consideration is for the child.

In all dojos there should be no less than two "mature" adults (a man and a woman), in the dojo when teaching minors (I'll broaden the age range to include teenagers).

My opinion is a rather strong one, I know. But I've seen the damage these things cause, I've seen how offenders get off because people are simpathetic to them, more than the victim; and the set of circumstances that arose to provide the opportunity for this behavior is NOT corrected.

Too often damaging behavior is not sufficiently dealt with in the dojo (or life situations, if one wants to take it in that direction) because the person is liked or popular, he or she is "a good guy/girl", he or she teaches great techniques, therefore this must be a singular incident. This sets the stage for more damage.