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ivan
01-05-2002, 09:07 AM
when attacked with a swift jab or punch,i find it is hard to escape using tenkan, i do it too slow and also it is hard to think which side should i turn in a split second. Is there any other offensive i could use which is practical and effective...
THANK YOU
ivan

PeterR
01-05-2002, 11:04 AM
There are some schools of Aikido thought that consider tenkan a non-starter probably for the same reasons you brought up. Best defense against a swift punch is correct ma ai.

One of my students was a boxer. I thought my ma ai was good and my intent was to execute taisabaki followed by irimi. I said hit me and he proceeded to do just that following my taisabaki with his fist. OK so I adjusted ma ai and bleeding lip and all - did what I intended to do initially this time remembering that a boxer can change the direction of his punch.

So there was no tenkan in the story just an example of the importance of ma ai against swift punches. Shodokan Aikido does have a tenkan like movement but it is given not nearly the predominance you see in Aikikai for example. In fact it is more of a cutting movement.

Chuck Clark
01-05-2002, 02:50 PM
Peter,

The trick is in being sensitive to the puncher's "pre-movement body shifts" and then making your turn with the proper timing. Every punch has a point just before impact where the direction or real nature of the punch can't be changed. It takes lots of correct practice to get to where you can stay motionless (fudoshin) and wait until the right time to move.

Too many aikidoka are trained as uke to continue to attack where the tori "was" even if the tori moves too soon. This is bad practice. There must be a feed back loop in our practice that gives us good info. Of course this all depends on the level of practice we are engaged in.

We do a lot of this sort of thing with the nidan and up folks at the Jiyushinkan. Learning to not get hit is a desensitization and then resensitization process that takes about two years or so to get where it is pretty dependable. Hard, fast punches right to the face.

Regards,

PeterR
01-05-2002, 03:28 PM
Hi Chuck;

Are you saying that a tenkan like movement is workable in this situation? The short fast jabs are usually delivered without the attacker unbalancing himself I would expect. I tend to agree with the original post in that the movement is too slow. I just have visions of turning right into the punch.
Originally posted by Chuck Clark
The trick is in being sensitive to the puncher's "pre-movement body shifts" and then making your turn with the proper timing.

Chuck Clark
01-05-2002, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
Are you saying that a tenkan like movement is workable in this situation? The short fast jabs are usually delivered without the attacker unbalancing himself I would expect. I tend to agree with the original post in that the movement is too slow. I just have visions of turning right into the punch.


Hi Peter,

The act of sticking your arm out quickly with intent to load weight at the end will not off-balance you if you get to complete it as planned.

However, if tori turns at the proper time (when uke can not change the punch)and takes up part of the uke's space by entering (irimi) into a fraction of the space uke intended to use to keep a solid base with a well timed and positioned parry, uke's own force and automatic attempt to regain balance will cause beautiful kuzushi to take place.

Because this is predictable, tori can then continue the connection and apply a secondary directional kuzushi that causes uke to fall right into whatever waza "fits" the situation.

It is hard to write about but I can show it to you in short order. VHS tape works too, if you'd really like to see it.

Regards,

PeterR
01-06-2002, 11:07 AM
Thanks Chuck I was experimenting with that last night. What seemed to work best was tsukuri (irimi) followed by the tenkan. I got caught up in the tenkan that seems to be practiced in the Aikikai dojos I have visited here - the same form where when I was executing a tenkan like movement at Honbu Nariyama yelled at me "Old man Aikido". Still smarting from that.

Brian H
01-06-2002, 11:30 AM
I have never had much success working against any single jab. They are to short, to fast and uke is rarely anything but well balanced. The only success I have had is moving irimi to the side jabbing and then dealing with the follow up jab from the other side (after all who would not use repeated jabs in a fight). Since I am now further from the follow up, Uke must cross his body and extend himself to reach me allowing me an opening.

JPT
01-06-2002, 07:19 PM
When I was in the Phillipines we trained with a single uke, defending against boxing style attacks, Uke wearing a pair of 16 oz gloves. The attacks were very fast and I found it very difficult to apply any techniques. Mostly I got hit! but I did get a bit better with time. I found that the jab attacks were too fast to go straight into an tenkan or irimi tenkan.
However one of the things that I was shown seems quite suitable for the jab. Basically you have to have one hand of the guard high (unbendable arm just above face level) and as the jab comes in pat it (i.e. hit it hard with the palm of your hand) out of the way using a very fast downward motion. The hand either returns to the guard position or if nage is quick enough can then be followed up by, further knocking or patting the arm out of the way with the other hand and then a back hand/fist atemi to uke's face by the first hand (continued from the downward motion of the first pat & entering slightly to make up the distance). After the back hand atemi or either pat (providing the arm has not been withdrawn) you should be able to do some sort of irimi tenkan technique.
:square: :circle: :triangle:

L. Camejo
01-06-2002, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by ivan
when attacked with a swift jab or punch,i find it is hard to escape using tenkan, i do it too slow and also it is hard to think which side should i turn in a split second. Is there any other offensive i could use which is practical and effective...
THANK YOU
ivan

Hi Ivan,

An option that I've used against jabs is a combination of what Peter R and Chuck spoke about above.

For jabbers and people with sharp, quick knife thrusts I tend to lead them into me by very very slightly leaning or stepping back. This makes the person overextend the jab slightly more than their initial intent. I then sidestep to the outside. The slight overextension on the part of Tori gives uke a fraction of a second more time to enter quickly with Irimi, applying tegatana to maintain a connection with the jabbing arm/wrist.

As the jabbing arm is recoiled almost to Tori's body, I take hold of it with both hands (shihonage ura style) and enter deeply, pushing the hands across Tori's body, adding to his backward momentum, causing kuzushi. As the Toris' arm relaxes to a bit to regain balance I sink my weight onto the arm and tenkan (circular gedan no kuzushi for us Shodokan guys).

Ending technique tends to be a kotegaeshi or gyaku gamae ate (sokumen irimi nage).

This took a while to understand after being shown to me by my sensei. It is something I use extensively in Randori and is VERY effective, but a bit complex to grasp at first.

Hope my explanation was clear enough to help.

Oh, and Peter, I wouldn't worry about that "Old man Aikido" statement. In my experience (which is no way comparable to yours :)) "Old man Aikido" tends to mean "very effective Aikido."

L.C.:ai::ki:

P.S.: Ivan, To predict the direction and timing of a jab or punch, keep an eye on the neck and shoulder muscles of the striking hand, they tend to tense very slightly, telegraphing the coming movement, giving enough time to do even a slow avoidance like tenkan if you're alert. Takes practice though :)

PeterR
01-07-2002, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by L. Camejo
Oh, and Peter, I wouldn't worry about that "Old man Aikido" statement. In my experience (which is no way comparable to yours :)) "Old man Aikido" tends to mean "very effective Aikido."
Trust me that's not the way Nariyama meant it. :(

[Censored]
01-07-2002, 12:51 PM
The trick is in being sensitive to the puncher's "pre-movement body shifts" and then making your turn with the proper timing. Every punch has a point just before impact where the direction or real nature of the punch can't be changed.

What if that point is placed inside your body?

Chuck Clark
01-07-2002, 06:38 PM
That's the trick then, isn't it. There's no such thing as free lunch...

It all depends on who can take the initiative and keep it.

Regards,

nikonl
01-12-2002, 10:06 AM
Does anyone know where to see video clips of defense against jabs instead of words? :)

unsound000
01-13-2002, 02:57 AM
You could just kick them in the shin or knee cap as hard as you can in the street. In the dojo,just practice......practice ....... practice...............then you can do both:)


Originally posted by ivan
when attacked with a swift jab or punch,i find it is hard to escape using tenkan, i do it too slow and also it is hard to think which side should i turn in a split second. Is there any other offensive i could use which is practical and effective...
THANK YOU
ivan

Jonathan
01-22-2002, 01:11 PM
As one person noted, keeping your hands covering your centerline is very helpful in dealing with jabs, etc. Many of my students have seen video tape of shihan doing ran-dori and have assumed that, like them, they do not need to "put up their dukes". They quickly realize, by way of a few rounds of randori, that they haven't the experience or the understanding to perceive or emulate correctly what these shihan are doing. This is usually after getting a punch or two in the face or ribs.

Having a blending mind is also important. I find in randori that those of my students who have just come from other MA reflexively try to block everything and consequently remain squarely in front of, and in close proximity to, their attackers. Yielding and keeping good ma-ai is much better.

mj
01-22-2002, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by ivan
when attacked with a swift jab or punch...

There is another kind of punch???