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unsound000
01-01-2002, 10:10 PM
Recently, I bruised my knee in practice by falling on it. A shodan came over and placed it his palm on it. He explained that he was just holding it and extending his ki. My knee got pretty warm after a couple minutes but there was little bruising later. I think it would have bruised a lot more if he had not done this.
So, does anyone have similar stories or a medical explanation? It seems like the same as applying a heat pack. I've read that heat is a sign of their being ki but it is not ki itself. I think the heat did the trick, ki or not. Any opinions?

shihonage
01-02-2002, 01:29 AM
After all is said and done, and this thread grows to 500 messages, all you will be left with is your own experience and beliefs.

daedalus
01-02-2002, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by shihonage
After all is said and done, and this thread grows to 500 messages, all you will be left with is your own experience and beliefs.

Yep.

Anat Amitay
01-03-2002, 10:18 AM
Hi!
Actually, I have some stories on this subject:
First, there was this show on TV here a few monthes ago, on strange things around the world.
One thing was a chinesse doctor that heals with ki. He has been studying Chi Knog and could radiate heat from his hands. To show it was no frod, they pictured him with an ultra red camera and that showed very hot temperatures projecteing! Not like a ray but as a spreading warmth that intensifies.
As for me, I had an experience with my teacher. I've studied natural medicine (partly, hope to continue it later on in life) and after one training, my teacher had a bad lower back pain. So he lied on his stomach and I just put my hands on his back. All I actually did was think of flowing ki into him, but not like in training, but I thought of a healing power, a warm, soft, healing flow of ki. I just knelt there with my hands over his back. It was about 5-10 minutes, but at a certain point I felt warmth coming from within me to my hands and flowing out. Later on my teacher told me he felt it too.
I do believe that there is something there, but it's not easy to reach or use at will (maybe I just don't have enough training at it).
Hope I've been able to help :)

Anat

Sid
01-03-2002, 01:22 PM
Interesting. You might wish to look into kiatsu( ki massage from "Ki" Aikido) and reiki. I have some experience in reiki, and it is a good adjunct to aikido training, IMHO.

Your hands basically get very hot, and the person you are treating gets very relaxed. As for medical benefits, there is some research that has been done, and it seems positive.

Sid

ze'ev erlich
01-03-2002, 02:24 PM
Hello,
at our dojo we practice at the end of every class a special meditation called NANSOU.
Koyama Sensei in Kyoto lets his students do too.

Information on Nanso you can read at:
nanso meditation link (http://members.tripod.co.uk/aikikan/nanso.html)

please let me know what you think.

Erik
01-03-2002, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by unsound000
I think it would have bruised a lot more if he had not done this.

Interestingly, my first thought was that you had an injury that would not have bruised much. You seem to discount that possibility. The why of that might make an interesting study for you.

Erik
01-03-2002, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by shihonage
After all is said and done, and this thread grows to 500 messages, all you will be left with is your own experience and beliefs.

If that was all he wanted. Experience and beliefs actually don't prove very much by themselves. Regrettably, it's probably the most incomplete way of studying this sort of thing. Sort of makes you feel fallible doesn't it but then ask 10 people what they saw at a car crash and you'll get 10 different stories.

What improves upon this is evidence and study and in the case of Ki Healing should be relatively easy to do. If they can prove that a medicine achieves a certain result, a certain percentage of time, in a certain type of person, then Ki Healing ought to be able to do the same.

If significant evidence were to come along I would gladly accept it but I think we'll be waiting a really long time for it.

Abasan
01-03-2002, 09:55 PM
The medical community is not known for its receptiveness to modern things, especially if it cannot be benefited by the large pharmaceutical companies that provides it with funding.

You guys heard of Essiac? Its a cure for cancer that originated from India but revived by a canadian nurse in the 20's or 30's.

Although she has managed to help hundreds of ppl, the medical community still resisted her cure, till today i think.

Some ppl are just too cynical to believe in anything. Btw Sid, I'm into reiki too (level 1). It doesn't seem to work though. tsk tsk. Not that I'm a sceptic. I rather rely on a trained art such as qi gong to train my ki for healing rather then this abstract-anyone-can-do-it type which reiki is.

Erik
01-04-2002, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by Abasan
The medical community is not known for its receptiveness to modern things, especially if it cannot be benefited by the large pharmaceutical companies that provides it with funding.

You guys heard of Essiac? Its a cure for cancer that originated from India but revived by a canadian nurse in the 20's or 30's.

Although she has managed to help hundreds of ppl, the medical community still resisted her cure, till today i think.


Ah, the old government conspiracy strikes again.

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2000/04/cure-all2.htm

unsound000
01-04-2002, 03:02 AM
My knee was beginning to discolor. It had been hurting some throughout the night from dropping on it. We were practicing a certain technique where you jump up with your back parallel to the ground and throw uke by the neck. Then you land on your knee and foot. Anyways, I didn't want to stop cuz I was learning a lot with this big guy so I did it for about an hour. Anyways, the last time I did it, I landed on it and turned it accidentally. It really hurt to straighten it and I had to sit down.
I think it would have left a bruise. The next day it was just a little pink.

Originally posted by Erik


Interestingly, my first thought was that you had an injury that would not have bruised much. You seem to discount that possibility. The why of that might make an interesting study for you.

Erik
01-04-2002, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by unsound000
I think it would have left a bruise. The next day it was just a little pink.

But you see, that's the point. You think, you don't know. That's why the testing process for drugs is so intense and involved. It's incredibly difficult to provide legitimate statistical evidence that a drug or practice works or doesn't work and that it has no side-effects. The most profound change in my thinking on this has been because I've gone back and revisited statistics. It's helped me understand why this stuff propagates the way it does and most importantly that flukes are more normal than we think.

I also wonder how many Ki Healers have ever considered the possibility of side effects? Suppose that Ki Healers could actually heal injuries? Would there be an increase in cancer? Would there be an imbalance in some other area of the body? Remember, they've just tweaked your body, in what is potentially a pretty major way and your body will respond to this and probably do so in unexpected ways. The body is incredibly complex. Of course that never happens in the new age health world. It's all side effect free which is also potential evidence that it's all effect free as well.

Anyways, I actually don't discount this stuff outright. I just want it to be legitimately tested in the light of day.

L. Camejo
01-04-2002, 07:03 PM
Hi all,

Jon, let me first of all congratulate you on creating a thread that is very interesting to me anyway.

I have been exposed to learning a few different energy healing systems, including Reiki, Tai Chi Qigong and some forms of Healing Qigong among others. A new system created by an Aikidoka and monk called Tao Shiatsu has recently perked my interest.

I think what you experienced was a basic example of energy healing, i.e. localised ki transfer to a specific area. Generally the body's entire physical, thought and energetic system is interlinked via the chakras and meridians that are used in acupuncture and practices of the sort. Detailed information about these linkages can be found in any good Shiatsu manual.

The heat you felt is the same as the heat that is generated whenever atoms are stimulated and begin rubbing together. The heat probably helped on a sensory level, but unless the person's hands generated the levels of heat found in your typical heat pack for a similar period of time that one would use a heat pack, the heat from his hands probably did not do the trick by itself.

It has been said that all matter, when broken down into its simplest form is pure energy (Einstein?????). If this is true then one should be able to affect matter for better or worse at a level of pure energy, right??

As far as heat and ki extension goes, I also saw the documentary that Anat alluded to earlier. In that same documentary, sound waves were detected to be leaving the Qigong master's hands at a rate of 6-8 hertz. These were detected by ULF microphones.

The fact is, we already use sound waves to generate heat... it's called a microwave :)

Funny how the same concept is met with question marks when people generate heat by projecting ki (a.k.a. light/sound vibrations???).

In the case of things like Reiki, this form of healing seems to be the most powerful from my experience, however, like the others, the success of the treatment is directly linked to the patient's knowledge of what is being done.

For all we know, when the person placed their palm on your knee, the most important healing element may have been telling you what he was doing. This could have triggered an entirely psychosomatic response to the injury.

I may have raised more questions than answers here, but this is just a sillhouette of my true feelings on the subject which will be too much to bore you with.

Peace to all.
L.C.:ai::ki:

Jim ashby
01-05-2002, 01:46 PM
Sorry but microwaves are not sound.They are electromagnetic radiation. Sound waves are pressure fluctuations.(Don't you just hate engineers)
Have fun.

Sid
01-05-2002, 01:58 PM
Hi all,

Firstly, anyone who goes to a "Ki healer" before a proper doctor ought to have their head checked out, BUT it cannot hurt to try Ki healing after a medical check up.

"It has been said that all matter, when broken down into its simplest form is pure energy (Einstein?????). If this is true then one should be able to affect matter for better or worse at a level of pure energy, right?? "

Yeah - thats what E = M * C * C means.


"I also wonder how many Ki Healers have ever considered the possibility of side effects? Suppose that Ki Healers could actually heal injuries? Would there be an increase in cancer? Would there be an imbalance in some other area of the body? Remember, they've just tweaked your body, in what is potentially a pretty major way and your body will respond to this and probably do so in unexpected ways. The body is incredibly complex. Of course that never happens in the new age health world. It's all side effect free which is also potential evidence that it's all effect free as well. "

Erik, I think that one has to differentiate between a guy who says that he is going to heal an injury after doing some weekend course in reiki, and a guy who has trained in Qi Gong for thirty years, and is showing you an exercise in energy meditation. Also, from what i have understood about Ki healing, most of it is meant to treat "imbalances", and not acute injury. Which brings me to my next point - Ki healing, in my limited experience, is most suited to chronic things like headaches.


Abasan, again I think that one should differentiate between a weekend course in something that will grant you miraculous healing powers, and a long term thing like Qi Gong or Tai Chi. For example, in Japan, reiki is something that you learn over a long period of time, with daily practice, whereas in the West, it is a weekend thing.

Great post guys,
Sid

unsound000
01-06-2002, 07:10 PM
Yeah, we understand each other. I talked to a doctor friend of mine and he said most likely I was experiencing some severe cramping in the knee. The warmth and relaxation helped it. Usually, I believe the simplest explanation is the best. Those are good questions you ask too.


Originally posted by Erik


But you see, that's the point. You think, you don't know.
I also wonder how many Ki Healers have ever considered the possibility of side effects? Suppose that Ki Healers could actually heal injuries? Would there be an increase in cancer? Would there be an imbalance in some other area of the body? Remember, they've just tweaked your body, in what is potentially a pretty major way and your body will respond to this and probably do so in unexpected ways.

unsound000
01-10-2002, 01:01 AM
Now, to me though, making someone relax and using energy (warmth)from your own body is ki. At least, it was to me. I don't know what others think.

jimbo
01-10-2002, 08:17 AM
Don't know if it helps much, but at your local library, you might be able to find an interesting series on audio or videotape by Bill Moyers called (I believe) "Healing and the Mind." In the series he looks at and attempts to understand Chi or Ki and its uses in healing. Typical of his work, it is very interesting and very informative, even if it can provide no definitive answers.

--jimbo

Erik
01-11-2002, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by unsound000
Now, to me though, making someone relax and using energy (warmth)from your own body is ki. At least, it was to me. I don't know what others think.

In a pure sense of the word, at least to my limited understanding of it, I could buy into this statement. The problem is that there is a big difference between a literal description and calling what you do ki-healing. One implies a very simple basic practice without any mystical qualities. The other implies a magical force and so becomes much more susceptable to disingenuity (that a word?).

[Censored]
01-11-2002, 06:58 PM
If significant evidence were to come along I would gladly accept it but I think we'll be waiting a really long time for it.

It's kinda like mountain climbing. Three types:

One is out climbing now, and thus unavailable for comment. :(

One was out climbing, and fell down. He is also unavailable for comment. :(

One has never been up the mountain, but has heard the stories and seen the pictures. She is usually available, but her comments are misleading and uninformed. :(

Abasan
01-12-2002, 11:17 PM
It's kinda like mountain climbing. Three types:
One is out climbing now, and thus unavailable for comment.

One was out climbing, and fell down. He is also unavailable for comment.

One has never been up the mountain, but has heard the stories and seen the pictures. She is usually available, but her comments are misleading and uninformed.

you missed out the last one...

one who has done it, came back alive and available for comment.

tedehara
01-13-2002, 10:12 AM
Hi all,

I finally revised the Chicago Ki Society Annex (http://www.geocities.com/tedehara). This is a portal for all things :ki: Ki.
http://www.geocities.com/tedehara
Thanks to FrontPage, I've fixed most of the links. You can use the website search engine to find what you want, or go to the Views of the Life Force in the various categories like: Ki Society, Japanese culture, Chinese culture or New Age, and click your way through the different pages.
http://www.geocities.com/tedehara
There are articles about Ki in healing. There is also a Skeptic's Corner for those who don't believe in Ki.

Enjoy,