Training "Aiki" with Dan Harden

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[rob_liberti]

I love the orginal topic of this thread. You have an innovative idea, share it, and look for criticism to make it better. I want to do similar types of things but I'm not yet ready. Thank you for sharing that idea.

Now, on to the topic that insipired me to decide to give up the only hours of sleep I may get for a few days and post.

Dan,Why don't you post a video showing the way you move? Then Chris can re-post his video, and we can compare the two side-by-side. Of course, if you're shy, perhaps Stan Baker and Cady could demonstrate --- after all, they've been studying with you long enough to get it, haven't they? :D

Jim

I'm conflicted about this. On one hand I want to respond "This is a good point." and on the other hand I want to respond "This has got to stop." So I'm responding with BOTH messages and then some.

A far as "this has got to stop" is concerned, let me make a fairly decent analogy... I truly wish I could have gotten along with Mike Sigman on these boards better. I absolutely love every single thing he ever wrote about internal connections, but our personalities just clashed. I disliked everything he wrote about anything OTHER than internal connections to the point that to me - the juice just wan't worth the squeeze. In a sense, I really feel like I was obligated to speak up when *I percieved* that he was bullying people just enough under the radar - becuase of that idea about how bad things happen when good people do nothing, etc. But I wasn't mature enough to do that like a gentleman and if I had a time machine, fixing this would probably make the top 50 things I would do.

Mr Sigman if you're reading, I wish I could have handled our online interactions better. I wish I could have attended your seminar. I'm sure it was incredible information that I missed out on.

Jim, in true spirit of friendship and respect, I'm hoping you're seeing where I'm going with this...

Regardless, in general terms, we all fight because something has offended our personal belief system. It is/was upsetting to have people say there is something missing in what aikido people are doing. It's such a broad generalization that it offends us very dedicated aikidoka who feel we found excellent instructors who offer the best aikido instruction available - given our personal preferred learning modalities.

At this point, I would be shocked to find out that any of my aikido teachers have the internal skills Dan is teaching me to the depth that Dan has them developed. But it's been my experience that my aikido teachers have SOME well developed internal skills and lots of success transfering SOME of that knowledge to others. How much more depth than they have is really NEEDED is debatable considering that they are doing some great aikido with the depth of internal skills that they have. Regardless, I have found that I'm just terrible at learning those particular skills from my aikido teachers and Dan's approach in this area speaks much more directly TO ME.

I do want to make an important point (I haven't read anyone else state this). There is a big difference between extremely developed internal aiki skills and some of the other aiki skills I have not seen anyone else do. I personally want to train all of them in a way that best works for me. For instance:

- Dan teaches in the best way FOR ME how to do internal training.

- Gleason sensei teaches in the best way FOR ME how to protect my agressor, drop my ego, manifest my true self. I just couldn't learn his internal skills from him as well as I can learn internal skills from Dan Harden. However, I will note that Gleason sensei and Dan are BOTH telling me extremely similar things. I just jive with Dan's approach better on the topic of directly training internal skills - and I love how he applies them to MMA.

- I think Saotome sensei's ability to move around attackers is NOTHING like what Dan shows us. I would like that skill too, but I haven't found anyone who can dumb it down enough for me to latch on to how to approach amazing ability of his. I don't even know if it is an INTERNAL skill! I just know it is a skill I would like to have for me to do the aikido I want to do. (I should say I believe that Pete Trimmer sensei and Marsha Turner both have done the disappear on me while I attacked them thing to the point that I remain hopeful that I can learn a little bit more of how this is done myself some day.)

On to the "this is a good point" aspect of what I wanted to respond to Jim's quote...

If I learn enough of the jo trick to demonstrate it, I will drive or take the train down towards your dojo and show you. I actually think that while I have no hope of being able to do the jo trick with 3 people pushing on it any time soon, I can probably show you what I can do enough right now to impress you with what I've learned since I met Dan - since you knew me and my power level before I met him.

In one sense I would love to see some big name UFC guy come to Dan's barn and fight him and have a video of it. On the other hand, I'd rather no one blieve that Dan has any ability what-so-ever so I can keep him focused on teaching me. Then some day some UFC fighter in his 20s can challenge me and I can be the big hero of internal arts meets MMA for all the world to see on you-tube! But probably, I'll just continue to learn and not worry to much about what anyone else thinks.

Here's my opinion on the whole thing. When my 4 year old attacks me, I am SO much more powerful than he is, that I can stop him from hurting me without hurting him at all. I truly believe that training what Dan (and probably what Mike and Akuzawa) train can make an adult SO much more powerfull than another fairly well trained ADULT that I should be able to stop him from hurting me without hurting him. To me that is what aikido as a martial art should be about and that's where I plan to take it. To do this I started having to do a lot of yoga, and the funny thing is even if I do achieve my goal in aikido, and I'll probably spend a lot more time as I get older just focusing on the yoga! There's something ironic about that but it's about 2:30 am and I can't quite work it out.

Thanks,
Rob Liberti

PS Stan Baker is a truth seeker and he has been putting the work in for as long as I have known him.

[rob_liberti]

I love the orginal topic of this thread. You have an innovative idea, share it, and look for criticism to make it better. I want to do similar types of things but I'm not yet ready. Thank you for sharing that idea.

Now, on to the topic that insipired me to decide to give up the only hours of sleep I may get for a few days and post.

Dan,Why don't you post a video showing the way you move? Then Chris can re-post his video, and we can compare the two side-by-side. Of course, if you're shy, perhaps Stan Baker and Cady could demonstrate --- after all, they've been studying with you long enough to get it, haven't they? :D

Jim

I'm conflicted about this. On one hand I want to respond "This is a good point." and on the other hand I want to respond "This has got to stop." So I'm responding with BOTH messages and then some.

A far as "this has got to stop" is concerned, let me make a fairly decent analogy... I truly wish I could have gotten along with Mike Sigman on these boards better. I absolutely love every single thing he ever wrote about internal connections, but our personalities just clashed. I disliked everything he wrote about anything OTHER than internal connections to the point that to me - the juice just wan't worth the squeeze. In a sense, I really feel like I was obligated to speak up when *I percieved* that he was bullying people just enough under the radar - because of that idea about how bad things happen when good people do nothing, etc. But I wasn't mature enough to do that like a gentleman and if I had a time machine, fixing this would probably make the top 50 things I would do.

Mr Sigman if you're reading, I wish I could have handled our online interactions better. I wish I could have attended your seminar. I'm sure it was incredible information that I missed out on.

Jim, in true spirit of friendship and respect, I'm hoping you're seeing where I'm going with this...

Regardless, in general terms, we all fight because something has offended our personal belief system. It is/was upsetting to have people say there is something missing in what aikido people are doing. It's such a broad generalization that it offends us very dedicated aikidoka who feel we found excellent instructors who offer the best aikido instruction available - given our personal preferred learning modalities.

At this point, I would be shocked to find out that any of my aikido teachers have the internal skills Dan is teaching me to the depth that Dan has them developed. But it's been my experience that my aikido teachers have SOME well developed internal skills and lots of success transfering SOME of that knowledge to others. How much more depth than they have is really NEEDED is debatable considering that they are doing some great aikido with the depth of internal skills that they have. Regardless, I have found that I'm just terrible at learning those particular skills from my aikido teachers and Dan's approach in this area speaks much more directly TO ME.

I do want to make an important point (I haven't read anyone else state this). There is a big difference between extremely developed internal aiki skills Dan has shown me so far and some of the other aiki skills (or maybe I should say aikido skills) I have not seen anyone else do other than Gleason and Saotome senseis. I personally want to train all of them in a way that best works for me. For instance:

- Dan teaches in the best way FOR ME how to do internal training.

- Gleason sensei teaches in the best way FOR ME how to protect my agressor, drop my ego, manifest my true self. I just couldn't learn his internal skills from him as well as I can learn internal skills from Dan Harden. However, I will note that Gleason sensei and Dan are BOTH telling me extremely similar things. I just jive with Dan's approach better on the topic of directly training internal skills - and I love how he applies them to MMA.

- I can not relate anything I have learned from Dan Harden to Saotome sensei's ability to move around attackers. I would like that skill too, but I haven't found anyone so far who can and will dumb it down enough for me to latch on to how to approach amazing ability. I don't even know if it is an INTERNAL skill! I just know it is a skill I would like to have for me to do the aikido I want to do. (I should say I believe that Pete Trimmer sensei and Marsha Turner both have done the disappear on me while I attacked them thing to the point that I remain hopeful that I can learn a little bit more of how this is done myself some day.)

On to the "this is a good point" aspect of what I wanted to respond to Jim's quote...

If I learn enough of the jo trick to demonstrate it, I will drive or take the train down towards your dojo and show you. I actually think that while I have no hope of being able to do the jo trick with 3 people pushing on it any time soon, I can probably show you what I can do enough right now to impress you with what I've learned since I met Dan - since you knew me and my power level before I met him.

In one sense I would love to see some big name UFC guy come to Dan's barn and fight him and have a video of it. On the other hand, I'd rather no one blieve that Dan has any ability what-so-ever so I can keep him focused on teaching me. Then some day some UFC champion in his 20s can challenge me and I can be the big hero of internal arts meets MMA for all the world to see on you-tube! But probably, I'll just continue to learn and not worry to much about what anyone else thinks.

Here's my opinion on the whole thing. When my 4 year old attacks me, I am SO much more powerful than he is, that I can stop him from hurting me without hurting him at all. I truly believe that training what Dan (and probably what Mike and Akuzawa) train can make an adult SO much more powerfull than another fairly well trained ADULT that I should be able to stop him from hurting me without hurting him. To me that is what aikido as a martial art should be about and that's where I plan to take it. To do this I started having to do a lot of yoga, and the funny thing is even if I do achieve my goal in aikido, and I'll probably spend a lot more time as I get older just focusing on the yoga! There's something ironic about that but it's about 2:30 am and I can't quite work it out.

Thanks,
Rob Liberti

PS Stan Baker is a truth seeker and he has been putting the work in for as long as I have known him.

[Ron Tisdale]

Excellent Post Rob,

And Best to you in your search,

Ron

[Mike Sigman]

Mr Sigman if you're reading, I wish I could have handled our online interactions better. Seriously, Rob... I don't think about those things at all, so please don't mention it.

If you show through your posts or personal interactions that these are the things you're really interested and can do, then we have a topic in-common. I'd welcome it. Anything else I tend to not want to go there, even though it's offensive (or not offensive; I'm just not engaged) to some people that I don't want to arbitrarily "join in". One of those things I've selfishly started to enjoy since I quit trying to be a member of any "groups". ;) I'm not sure that a Taoist ("Someone following the Way") really is a member of regimented groups, anyway. In fact.. I'm sure that's not the case. :straightf

Best.

Mike Sigman

[DH]

Deleted

[MM]

Deleted

That was a good post. :)

[DH]

I do want to make an important point (I haven't read anyone else state this). There is a big difference between extremely developed internal aiki skills Dan has shown me so far and some of the other aiki skills (or maybe I should say aikido skills) I have not seen anyone else do other than Gleason and Saotome senseis. I personally want to train all of them in a way that best works for me. For instance:

- Dan teaches in the best way FOR ME how to do internal training.

- Gleason sensei teaches in the best way FOR ME how to protect my agressor, drop my ego, manifest my true self. I just couldn't learn his internal skills from him as well as I can learn internal skills from Dan Harden. However, I will note that Gleason sensei and Dan are BOTH telling me extremely similar things. I just jive with Dan's approach better on the topic of directly training internal skills - and I love how he applies them to MMA.
In one sense I would love to see some big name UFC guy come to Dan's barn and fight him and have a video of it. On the other hand, I'd rather no one blieve that Dan has any ability what-so-ever so I can keep him focused on teaching me. Then some day some UFC champion in his 20s can challenge me and I can be the big hero of internal arts meets MMA for all the world to see on you-tube! But probably, I'll just continue to learn and not worry to much about what anyone else thinks.

Here's my opinion on the whole thing. When my 4 year old attacks me, I am SO much more powerful than he is, that I can stop him from hurting me without hurting him at all. I truly believe that training what Dan (and probably what Mike and Akuzawa) train can make an adult SO much more powerfull than another fairly well trained ADULT that I should be able to stop him from hurting me without hurting him. To me that is what aikido as a martial art should be about and that's where I plan to take it.
Thanks,
Rob Liberti


Hi Rob
I snipped some, but I think you made some interesting points regarding this method of training and a separate compelling argument for how they may be used in or out of Aikido. You expressed your opinion well in a public post-so, here's mine.

Training this way will change your body. Once that happens, everything else starts to change...forever. And the more you change, the more centered and powerful you get. As There are different ways to train that build on things gained The more powerful you get, the more your expressions of power are manifest in *all* your movements-regardless of style. So, the more powerful and precise you get-the more your waza changes. It never ends.
At this point in my life I can no more think of Aikido then I can think of Daito ryu or Koryu jujutsu, judo or MMA. Names and waza have become more or less meaningless and all blend together. Over time the power morphs the waza into something new, that is every bit a personal expression of you and your mindset. For some they may cease to care about peacefully ending things when their short in-close strike has the power to break bones or knock someone out and end it fast? When hitting, kicking, or controlling, become equal options of a far more viable sort than they previously knew or were capable of. It really becomes a matter of personal choice as you yourself change.
As George Ledyard clearly states, the totality of the expression in and for aikido has to be learned from within aikido to BE aikido. Anything else...just isn't aikido. These side trips to learn these skills will be nothing more than that.

Expressions
Your questions about applicable use from Aikido to MMA and back again as a possible personal quest was posted publicly but I chose to wait to “discuss” it with you in person. The proverbial picture meaning more than words.
What I was attempting to show you Saturday in the short time we had is-I believe- beneficial to address here in your post. I was attempting to demonstrate the potentials that can be expressed and perhaps more clearly define an answer to your previous post about direction and choice.
For folks here it was a demonstration that performed a wide ranging tactical approach in attacks- to a common resolution with not only internal power being used in response, but a limited in scope limited use throughout the range of attacks. In other words handling attacks of varied types with the outcome being expressed as applicable and identifiable "art specific" waza. Driven with internal power
We did.
Aikido; tenchi nage with two hands throwing you in a roll...away
Daito ryu's Aik-no-jutsu; one hand dropping you over your own center to land at my feet in a breakfall
Judo style throw resistance with no counter offered. Then the same with dumping you at my feet
Koryu jujutsu neck breaks and sacrifice throws with the same body-winding as the basis for the throw
To BJJ's in the mount, with exhibiting the same crossline body work with peng from the knee to hand to the crucifix, jujigatame and single hand chokes,
On to the one Rob asked about two years ago;
You mounting me and me hitting and throwing from me on my back.
On to boxing and the power and speed enhancement that are expressed with unified movement making the strikes and counters both hard to see yet expressing power without wind-up and retraction, thus garnering more openings.

Where will it take you or anyone who pursues this training
All of those examples were things done with simple and demonstrable commonality of movement expressing power. So where or how you end up using these skills are really your personal choice, and proclivities. Remaining in Aikido is great, though anyone will, in the end seriously, and permanently, change both the way you see the art and the way you perform it.
I hope what I am about to say doesn't anger George.
It is my view that your body will create waza you were never capable of exploring, and directions of use you would never have even *seen* without training this way. Further, it will inexorably alter the way you interact with anyone who tries to "do" a thing to you. In time, any waza folks attempt won't matter much either; locks, throws, and entries will start to seem rather insipid and amateurish to you. In the fullness of time your Aikido, will be something completely different than what you are doing now.
If you train this way and take it seriously, it will teach you and change you. The change is unavoidable.

Ukemi
I think you saw a very clear and renewed look at yet another far more profound question to be answered for a career in Aikido. One which will be revealed to all the new guys in time. That is
What will you do when you gain enhanced skills, in measure, and you can no longer BE thrown by just about anyone you will meet without tremendous effort?
How will the well-accepted aikido doctrine of cooperation that makes aiki-do's version of aiki be dealt with- when the vast majority have little to no ability to do much of anything to you at all?

And in the end, who will be judged as actually the one doing Ai-ki-do? Will the better abled be judged the heretic and marginalized? Will the other a less connected guy shouldering and muscling through waza with nary a clue or "blending" with everything be considered the truer model of Aikido?
As more men and teachers get stumped and then intrigued, will it change *just* them? or change the face of Ai-ki-do as it is being disseminated in the future? Again George Ledyard many posts address that.
Only those in Aikido can make that decision for Aikido.

That said I simply cannot see things remaining the same, stagnated like they are. this power is simply undeniably true and will present -in time-irresovable issues in the art. Issues it hasn't faced since Tohai walked away. Then, it could be ignored as Kissomaru did many times with its gloosed over history regarding Daito ryu and his recreation of modern aikido waza then Tohei's rise to power more similar to his dad.
Now the art is assailed on multiple fronts.
1. Global communication after people seeing and feeling and failing.
2. People gaining more real world approached to personal combatives {MMA)
3. Facing real aiki, real power and learning to express it from within the art of Aikido.
Should be an interesting and revolutionary ten years.

[rob_liberti]

Okay, first thing's first. Jun, I fear I've hijacked a thread. Would you please be willing to move my last post and Dan's response (and Mike's if you like) and the rest of this one to a new thread called "you say aiki, I say aikido, let's call the whole thing off" or something like that?

As George Ledyard clearly states, the totality of the expression in and for aikido has to be learned from within aikido to BE aikido. Anything else...just isn't aikido. These side trips to learn these skills will be nothing more than that.

This brings several ideas to mind. Sorry I don't have time to fully form this post.

1 - That quote doesn't seem to apply to how aikido was originally formed.

2 - Anyone read "Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century" ? The author discusses "conformity enforcers; the diversity generators; the inner-judges; resource shifters; and inter-group tournaments."

3 - It does not have to come FROM WITHIN aikido. It just has to get TO people looking to do no harm, drop their ego, and manifest their true selves to BE aikido. (As an aside - What's up with people picking on the "moral high ground"? I appreciate people choosing to NOT hurt me, myself!)

4- Somehow, this quote seems appropriate:
http://www.elise.com/quotes/a/marianne_williamson_our_deepest_fear_is_that_we_are_powerful_beyond_measure.php

5- Is Saotome sensei's ability to move around attackers and seemingly disappear really "internal power"? I'm starting to think it is related. But maybe that is my wishing to finally get some insight into that one.

I want to develop internal skills and use them to do aikido even if it means I have to take falls for people when it's my turn to take ukemi. I have to do that for many people now and I have terrible structure. The interesting question here comes from the fact that I take ukemi from people using the progressive resistance model to help teach them the nage side. After developing internal skills will taking ukemi in this cooperative model really help them do the nag side?

I eventually want to apply those skills to other fun things like MMA, BJJ, Arnis, Kung Fu, etc. I just don't want to destroy someone when I have a clear power advantage and there is really no need to do so. I do need to figure out how to better survive the MMA learning. Being thrown in aikido is easy to soften. Taking shots to the ribs from aiki power no matter how much it is being pulled back hurts. Getting tooled with aiki response while trying to punch is just terrible. Do I really want to destroy any more nerves in my arms? Seems like they were put there for a reason? Can't I just get some wonder woman like arm bands or something? :)

Rob

[DH]

As George Ledyard clearly states, the totality of the expression in and for aikido has to be learned from within aikido to BE aikido. Anything else...just isn't aikido. These side trips to learn these skills will be nothing more than that.

Rob states:
1 - That quote doesn't seem to apply to how aikido was originally formed.

Interesting point isn't it. Is the evolution fixed in place and time?
Is it a version of Daito ryu as it was taught and practiced in Ueshiba's dojo?
Is it Ueshiba's "Aikido" totally new and complete?
Is it not his- and was created out of Kissomaru's understanding of what his dad was tryng to do?
Why did so many -like Tohei and Shioda go and train elsewhere to get the goods?
In consideration of the above-What has changed?
So, in the end will Aikido best be served by changes stemming from knowledge outside, in order to effect change from within?
It appears George's posts agree with that, at least on one level.

[dps]

Why did so many -like Tohei and Shioda go and train elsewhere to get the goods?


Where did Shioda train elsewhere but in Aikido?

David

[DH]

Daito ryu- in the Kodokai

[Ellis Amdur]

There is no doubt that Shioda trained - a little - with Kodo Horikawa. It's not a secret either. I wrote to the Yoshinkan and had a very clear email exchange with one of the younger shihan. He said, essentially, "yes, everyone knows that." Horikawa came to the Yoshinkan and taught at least one open seminar, and then on several occasions (I've heard a few and up to ten or so), Shioda and some senior students met with him behind closed doors. I then wrote and asked if Shioda sensei's technique changed from that point. The young shihan said he would check with some who were there. He got back to me and said that Shioda sensei, per the senior shihan, did not change before and after. (Which could be true and could be not). I do have independent, first hand, confirmation that Shioda, himself, was somewhat discomfited when his association with Horikawa was made (sort of) public.
A couple of points - descriptions of Ueshiba, when he was NOT trying to do his "aikido" sound remarkably like Daito-ryu. Specifically, his demo at Kenkoku University in Manchuria, where Ohba Hideo, (Tomiki's 1st deshi) believed that he would be disrespectful if he didn't try to attack all in, trying to destroy Ueshiba. Ohba was highly ranked in judo, in karate and had extensive training in various weaponry as well.
“Since the Emperor of Manchuria was in an exalted position at that time like the Emperor of Japan I thought I should not take ukemi for Ueshiba in the way I usually did. If Ueshiba Sensei were a true master he could freehand handle a true punch, thrust or grab. Therefore, I decided to attack him seriously.
Tada Hiroshi stated:
My cousin, who is one year older than me, told me it was a fantastic demonstration. Apparently hardly anyone could take Ueshiba Sensei’s ukemi. They weren’t just being thrown, it was if they were being shocked by high-voltage electricity.
Ueshiba was furious with Ohba, because, he felt, he was not able to demonstrate what HE thought was important. Ohba recalled that Ueshiba stomped off the mat, yelling at him, "Omae wa baka."
He was mollified, however, when Sonobe Hideo, the most wonderful naginata sensei in Japan at that time ,approached him.
She said, ‘Mr. Ueshiba I have never seen more wonderful techniques than what you showed today. They were fantastic!’ Ueshiba Sensei, who had been in a bad mood, asked her what part she liked. He asked me to find a place where they could talk and we all went down to the basement of the Shimbuden and they discussed the theory of martial arts for two hours. While I was listening to their discussion Ueshiba Sensei asked her what she liked and she replied that she liked the ‘connections’ (tsunagari) between techniques. However, I didn’t understand these connections. I understood that the Dai Nihon Butokukai [Kyoto-based organization which governed Japanese martial arts] then was having a hard time trying to decide who they should choose as the best swordsman of that year and had asked Sonobe Sensei for her opinion. When I heard Sonobe Sensei tell Ueshiba Sensei that she had never seen such wonderful techniques even though she had seem him demonstrate often, I decided to learn Naginata in order to search for these ‘connections.’”
I highlighted the one section of the last quotation. She'd seen him and thought she knew what he could do - but he, unleashed, showed her something different. In other words, we very well could be making a mistake about Ueshiba simply basing things on his films, where he was showing what he "wanted aiki-do to be."
Which leads to a final point. Tenryu, the ex-sumotori, stated that Shioda was closer to Ueshiba's technique than anyone. Yet when we look at Shioda, we sometimes not this "sharp" and subtle technique which is, those in the know say, more Daito-ryu than Ueshiba's aiikido.
So maybe Shioda, too, was guilty of not doing Ueshiba's aikido ("That's not my aikido!"). But he very well could have been doing what he had actually learned from Ueshiba, something that Horikawa confirmed rather than it being new to him - whether or not Ueshiba himself wanted that to be his legacy.
The argument is not whether or not Shioda studied with Horikawa for a few classes - he did. The Yoshinkan states that openly. And further, I'm not denying the possibility that a few sessions with Horikawa somehow opened up a new world to Shioda. But one of the least attractive aspects of Daito-ryu society is how one teacher will claim another person as a student, after one or two lessons. Horikawa, himself, took six of his students to learn some DR jujutsu (he'd concentrated on the aiki with Takeda) from Sagawa, signed a book, and from that day forward, Sagawa stated, "Horikawa's my student."
In sum, then: No denial whatsoever that Shioda studied from Horikawa. But the evidence I've cited above suggests the strong possibility that Ueshiba could do that style as well - but he eschewed it for his own reasons.
Best

[Tim Fong]

Ellis,

Do you have any thoughts about Shioda's solo conditioning routines?

Best,
Tim

[Ellis Amdur]

Hi Tim - I don't have a clue. I know several people who lived at the Yoshinkan and none of them recall any solo training by Shioda, except the "tai-sabaki" exercises that everyone did.
Here's a puzzle though: he is also not known to have done the Misogi-kai exercises that Ueshiba made so important in his later years.
AND - furthermore, I've been told by a senior Kodokai instructor that the Kodokai, unlike Sagawa's branch of Daito-ryu, does not particularly have solo training either. This individual said that he personally developed some solo training to assist himself, but it was not part of their particular system. (Don't shoot the messenger - just what I was told - maybe, some will say, he was being dishonest to me, an outsider, and keeping a secret).
Regarding the "impossibility" of developing internal power w/o solo training - Kuroda Tetsuzan's Komagawa Kaishin-ryu has a number of solo and dual training exercises. He told me, however, that he made these exercises up. In the old days, he said, all they had was two person kata. But people then were willing to practice the kata 'til they sweated blood and furthermore, they had the willingness and the ability to allow the kata to "pervasively" influence them - it was all they thought of, felt and experienced. After awhile, drinking a cup of water was Komagawa Kaishin-ryu. Kuroda said that because modern people don't have the time or the willingness to give "everything" up, he needed to develop such training exercises as a short-cut.
Similarly Chen Village t'ai chi reportedly only practiced the form(s) at one point, but the present generation developed a set of "silk reeling exercises" to facilitate development.
I'm on a good respectful basis with Inoue sensei of Yoshinkan - when I'm next in Japan, I'll ask him directly about this.
Best

[Timothy WK]

Tenryu, the ex-sumotori, stated that Shioda was closer to Ueshiba's technique than anyone.
I was thinking about this the other day. For example, if you look at the old footage of Shioda at the start of [this video (0:00 - 0:45) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIowy89IXco)], and then re-watch the old 1935(?) "Budo" video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4_3TdHBAvA) of Ueshiba (starts at ~1:05), Shioda's movements are very reminiscent of Ueshiba. In particular, neither of them stays, err, "flat-footed", they they both run around a lot and have a certain "hop" they do when they're going straight into someone.

[Ron Tisdale]

Excellent Post Ellis! Awaiting the results of your conversation with Inoue Sensei eagerly. Very insightful comments.

Best,
Ron

[Aikibu]

Hi Tim - I don't have a clue. I know several people who lived at the Yoshinkan and none of them recall any solo training by Shioda, except the "tai-sabaki" exercises that everyone did.
Here's a puzzle though: he is also not known to have done the Misogi-kai exercises that Ueshiba made so important in his later years.
AND - furthermore, I've been told by a senior Kodokai instructor that the Kodokai, unlike Sagawa's branch of Daito-ryu, does not particularly have solo training either. This individual said that he personally developed some solo training to assist himself, but it was not part of their particular system. (Don't shoot the messenger - just what I was told - maybe, some will say, he was being dishonest to me, an outsider, and keeping a secret).
Regarding the "impossibility" of developing internal power w/o solo training - Kuroda Tetsuzan's Komagawa Kaishin-ryu has a number of solo and dual training exercises. He told me, however, that he made these exercises up. In the old days, he said, all they had was two person kata. But people then were willing to practice the kata 'til they sweated blood and furthermore, they had the willingness and the ability to allow the kata to "pervasively" influence them - it was all they thought of, felt and experienced. After awhile, drinking a cup of water was Komagawa Kaishin-ryu. Kuroda said that because modern people don't have the time or the willingness to give "everything" up, he needed to develop such training exercises as a short-cut.
Similarly Chen Village t'ai chi reportedly only practiced the form(s) at one point, but the present generation developed a set of "silk reeling exercises" to facilitate development.
I'm on a good respectful basis with Inoue sensei of Yoshinkan - when I'm next in Japan, I'll ask him directly about this.
Best

Thank you for your insight Ellis...I think your post goes along way towards clearing up a few misconceptions.

William Hazen

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi William,

Which mis-conceptions specifically?

Thanks,
Ron

[Aikibu]

Hi William,

Which mis-conceptions specifically?

Thanks,
Ron

Hi Ron,

"Solo Training" and OSensei's "Aikido."

Take Care :)

William Hazen

[Ron Tisdale]

Still not sure which mis-conceptions you are referring to.

a) are you saying Ueshiba didn't do solo-training?
1a) That is not what Ellis just said
b) are you saying related arts didn't do solo-training in an organized fashion?
1b) Absolutely agreed...which is why it is solo training...it is not surprising that the various groups of Daito ryu do not have organized solo training. Even the Sagawa-ha did not to the best of my knowledge. But what he did have was a routine of about 20 exercises that he himself did regularly. As did his senior student.

What Shioda did to build and condition his body is an open question. Same with Horikawa Kodo, and all of the other "premier" students of Takeda. From what Ellis has said, and from an article by Kuroda Sensei some years ago, he used his kata as his solo training. Rigorously, and over a long period of time.

Best,
Ron

[Aikibu]

Sorry Ron you're a bit off the mark in your assumptions...

A. What O'Sensei knew as opposed to what he taught

B. What "role" solo training played in "internal development."

My misperception of both A & B. Especially A.

Take Care,

William hazen

[Ron Tisdale]

Ah...please excuse any assumptions. That would be why I asked! ;)

Best,
Ron

[MM]

Ron and William,
Hey, I'm glad you both posted and clarified things. I wasn't sure what you meant either, William. But Ron beat me to the posts. :)

Thanks,
Mark

[Aikibu]

No worries my Aiki Brothers as Yoda would say....

"You still have much to learn." :D*

William Hazen

That would mean me of course....LOL

[Toby Threadgill]

Hello,

I'd like to add to what Ellis' said concerning Kuroda Tetsuzan.

I had dinner with him last summer in Tokyo and we discussed body dynamics for about 4 hours. The topic of solo kata came up as we have 8 of these as part of our Joden Mokuroku in Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu. Similar to Ellis's previous description, Kuroda sensei indicated that the solo exercises he teaches were not an original part of the Shishin Takuma ryu curriculum...that everything needed to develop the internal skills necessary to master Shishin Takuma ryu were contained in the paired kata. Although he didn't specifically describe his invention of these solo kata as a "short cut", he did give me the impression that these kata had a specific purpose associated with reinforcing and isolating movements already extant in the Takuma ryu paired kata.

(FWIW, I possess an advanced level Shinshin Takuma ryu jujutsu mokuroku in my collection of densho. It is from a different branch than that practiced by Kuroda sensei. I cannot find any mention of any solo kata or similar practice on this densho.)

Those who have felt Kuroda sensei's jujutsu waza in person will confirm that he is definitely employing an extremely sophisticated form of internal strength and body control consistent with that pursued in other Japanese and Chinese arts frequently identified as "internal".

All too often people in budo become rather myopic, forgetting there are many ways to train and many ways to access certain universally applicable skills. Just because one type of training provides you with a specific result doesn't mean similar skills are not achieveable by someone else thru a different pedagogy. Budo training can speak to each of us in very specific ways. Every once in a while an individual comes along with a unique set of keys to unlock skills we desire. The question is, can we be open minded enough to recognize these keys if they appear to be something we have already rejected or seem totally different than what we have come to expect?

Respectfully,

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

[Tim Fong]

Hi Ellis,

Thanks, that was very good info. I've always liked Shioda's movements, and felt they were the best model for someone with my build.

I've been thinking about this too-- for Tohei we know about the Tempukai, and for Ueshiba we know about the misogi. But Shioda, we don't know about. I believe you on the Kodokai bit.

Here are my thoughts:
We know that before he came to aiki, Shioda had some experience in judo (3rd dan) and kendo (I can't find a rank for this). It would be really interesting to know what his judo tokui waza was. Assmuing Shioda's 3rd dan came as a result of ability (which I think is a fair inference based on that time period and his age) then he would have had to stabilize his lower body.

From kendo , Shioda could have had to stabilize his upper body (cross) as well. He could have done it either through the regular kendo training, or from supplemental work. A friend of mine who spent a lot of time with his professional kendo instructor grandfather told me an interesting tidbit. He said that the senior students practiced something that looked a lot like shintaijiku-- walking with the bo across their backs.

Then he gets to Ueshiba, and has already developed some of the pieces. I would suspect that being uke for Ueshiba would have let Shioda feel the ''connection'' in his body, as Ueshiba snapped on his techniques. Once Shioda felt it in his body (over the years), he could have worked to replicate and strengthen that feeling. If his lower body and upper body were already pretty stable, then "all" he would have had to do is develop the feeling in his spine to connect the top to the bottom.

If Ueshiba was passing the force through Shioda in a way that accessed Shioda's spine, then he definitely would have felt it there.

As to Kuroda and the lack of solo training I can believe that as well. I read something you wrote a while back about the kata +gokui of a ryuha allowing a person to ''enter into" the experiences of the founder. I've thought about that a lot lately.

It seems that learning to feel various parts of the body about which one is not normall aware is an important part of internal conditioning methods. Then the task is learning to control/strengthen them. That is a difficult thing to show another person directly. How would one measure a feeling?

However if one could ''enter into'' the experience of someone who _had_ already undergone the process, then it would seem to me, a person could ''find'' the similar feelings, and then have a language with which to interpret the feelings and integrate them into a comprehensive worldview.

Best,
Tim

[Scott Harrington]

Besides the training with Kodo Horikawa, Shioda also had the opportunity to take uke for Takeda Sokaku once during one of his ‘visits' to Ueshiba's dojo. This is documented in "Aikido Shugyo" by Shioda (translated by Jacques Payet and Christopher Johnston.) So Shioda Gozo had a "feel" from the progenitor of Aiki, and two top proponents to help him on the path.

While Shioda was a small man (though he trained excessively for strength during his young years), he certainly had an aura of aiki around him. Payet sensei told a story to me once regarding his years as an uchideshi at the Yoshinkan hombu and the difference between strength and aiki.

Nearing the end of his life, Shioda started to physically weaken. A heavy gust of wind pushed over a flimsy folding screen, which struck the master and knocked him down. Of course, they rushed to pick him up. But then later on the mat, he tossed his younger, bigger, stronger students with ease. Certainly something to think about.

The trouble with aiki as I see it is the method of instruction, which is a) very secret or b) very difficult to teach or c) very poorly taught.

If it is very secret, then you have to join the proper ‘club.' This may exclude some of us geographically, monetarily, etc.

If it is very difficult to teach then perhaps you need natural talent or continue to practice for a long time (a gamble as I see it) or it can only be passed on directly. I may not have the talent nor live that long, nor known the right source (which means back to it is very secret.)

If it is just poorly taught then perhaps one must reexamine how it is taught. There are language barriers, metaphors that don't cross over, preconceptions that must be dropped. But perhaps it just takes an examination of what is out there (which surprisingly is a lot) and rearranging it into a lesson plan.

Is that what the Aunkai is doing? Unfortunately priorities have twice made me miss seeing what they have. But I have felt aiki and so am on the path.

Payet sensei of the ‘rigid Yoshinkan path did some things I must admit are outstanding. And at a recent Matsuoka seminar (Aikikai linked) I too felt this elusive aiki.

While training on moving against a two-hand grasp, the person I was latched onto just wasn't getting it (I wasn't either but did get some, very little some, later.) They tried, I tried, yada yada no go.

Matsuoka sensei, with his always smiling personality, comes over and takes hold of my partner's other arm (the one I wasn't latched on to) and gently moving his own body, all of a sudden I could feel a connection directly from him going thru one arm, one body and out the other arm to me latched on tight with two hands. Impressive!

Now getting an explanation, or reproducing it - another story. Is it just you need the long background first to understand tensor differentials or can it be put into words like, "Just do this," I have yet to figure out. Any help out there?

Scott Harrington
co-author of "Aiki Toolbox: Exploring the Magic of Aikido"

[Upyu]

Besides the training with Kodo Horikawa, Shioda also had the opportunity to take uke for Takeda Sokaku once during one of his ‘visits' to Ueshiba's dojo. This is documented in "Aikido Shugyo" by Shioda (translated by Jacques Payet and Christopher Johnston.) So Shioda Gozo had a "feel" from the progenitor of Aiki, and two top proponents to help him on the path.

While Shioda was a small man (though he trained excessively for strength during his young years), he certainly had an aura of aiki around him. Payet sensei told a story to me once regarding his years as an uchideshi at the Yoshinkan hombu and the difference between strength and aiki.
<snip>


Hi Scott,

There's similar stories about Sagawa (Takeda's longest Deshi, together with him since Sagawa was 12) and how he couldn't open a can of food to save his life during his 80's, but could toss around 100kg Judo gold medalists like they were babies.

My own personal take, from being able to do a tiny fraction of some of this stuff is that their ability to generate localized muscular power declines. Which it should, since you retrain your body to generate force in a different manner.

If you ask me, you can't get it through sheer repetition of techniques. Maybe you can, but it's "a slow boat to china" as Dan once said.

Which is why most styles have supplementary solo exercises to develop these skills. Fune-kogi, furi-tama, the 10,001 variations of Qi-gong exercises in CMAs, Suburi, Shiko (sumo stomping), the list goes on and on.

Sagawa mentioned once that
a) Aiki doesn't use power
b) but you need to physically train the body a great deal/condition it if you want to use Aiki
c) Once you realize how to do it, you don't need to train as much, since it's just there.

So what does it mean?

It probably means pretty much what he said.
You train something specifically in the body, operating it (actually "it" is several different things in the body, covered in posts recently and before by Mike, myself, Dan etc) differently from local muscular power, condition it, which strengthens it.
Once conditioned a part of "it" doesn't lose effectiveness over time. The current popular theory of the month, which I subscribe to myself since I'm able to feel it, is that the fascia gets conditioned. Once it's conditioned it doesn't really go away. Combine that with the ability to direct the weight of the body from the legs, and there's a number of "weird" things you can do.
(And that's leaving out other complexities involving the manipulation of the tissue in the middle, etc etc)

A lot of the "higher" levels of Aiki are probably dependent on having an extremely conditioned network of fascia.

Sagawa would train 6 hours or more a day, doing reps numbering th e hundreds with an iron spear that weighed 15-20 lbs, even when he was 80. But when asked, he said he didn't use "Power", and that you had to start light.

Problem is you have to be shown how to train it, unless you're an extremely clever day laborer that works heavy loads for a living ;)

Just some food for thought.

[Thomas Campbell]

Hi Scott,

There's similar stories about Sagawa (Takeda's longest Deshi, together with him since Sagawa was 12) and how he couldn't open a can of food to save his life during his 80's, but could toss around 100kg Judo gold medalists like they were babies.

My own personal take, from being able to do a tiny fraction of some of this stuff is that their ability to generate localized muscular power declines. Which it should, since you retrain your body to generate force in a different manner.

[snip]

Rob, if you happen to read this, in your (and/or Ark's), opinion, is the loss of "localized muscular power" an inevitable result or accompaniment to training of the type Sagawa's or Aunkai's methods teach? Or, to phrase the question somewhat differently, is there an inevitable conflict between training exercises to cultivate or maintain "localized muscular power" (bodyweight or weight lifting) and the internal body skills training of Sagawa's or Aunkai's approaches? I think it would be potentially confusing to attempt training using Aunkai methods, for example, while also maintaining a weightlifting regimen (free weights or machines), and I also recall that Ark mentioned he basically only trains now using the bodyweight methods of Aunkai.

I'd be interested in your thoughts. Thanks.

[dps]

The trouble with aiki as I see it is the method of instruction, which is a) very secret or b) very difficult to teach or c) very poorly taught.
"

No, it is the method of learning, aiki is very poorly learned. People tend to over think what they are being taught.

David

[Upyu]

Rob, if you happen to read this, in your (and/or Ark's), opinion, is the loss of "localized muscular power" an inevitable result or accompaniment to training of the type Sagawa's or Aunkai's methods teach? Or, to phrase the question somewhat differently, is there an inevitable conflict between training exercises to cultivate or maintain "localized muscular power" (bodyweight or weight lifting) and the internal body skills training of Sagawa's or Aunkai's approaches? I think it would be potentially confusing to attempt training using Aunkai methods, for example, while also maintaining a weightlifting regimen (free weights or machines), and I also recall that Ark mentioned he basically only trains now using the bodyweight methods of Aunkai.

I'd be interested in your thoughts. Thanks.

Training with weights is fine, once you've acquired a degree of skill. Otherwise you wouldn't see heavy weapons training emphasized with so much zest in both CMA and JMA. My own personal take is that the stone locks you seen in Shuai Jiao, or the weights in Okinawan Karate are done to strengthen certain components of the body, only after you're able to produce "jin/kokyu" and move with "jin/kokyu." If you can do these things its kind of a "duh of course" realization.

Doing a weight lifting regimen in parallel with the methods taught in the Aunkai, or most internal arts would most certainly slow down the acquisition of skill, would be the short answer ;)

[Upyu]

No, it is the method of learning, aiki is very poorly learned. People tend to over think what they are being taught.

David

I'd have to agree with Scott...in general its probably very poorly taught, if taught explicitly at all in most places. Hell the chinese, with all their detailed texts etc tend to be close-vested about this stuff.
(Not that I blame them, teach another "round-eye" a hand-waving form or the next technqiue/fighting app of the month and in rolls the cheese :D
Can't ask for an easier job than that.
If you ask me its the opposite problem, people tend to not think hard enough about some crucial points :rolleyes:
Most people, when their head hurts thinking about the mechanics they chalk mastery up to "timing, good positioning, leverage...its simple physics!"

[Erick Mead]

The trouble with aiki as I see it is the method of instruction, which is
a) very secret or

b) very difficult to teach or

c) very poorly taught. All three could stem from one common problem -- we have not adopted a coherent Western scheme of concepts that make this knowledge accessible in native terms to our culture. Thus, the terms in which it is taught seem, by turns:

a) too easily mocked by those who do not know it, so keeping the hoi-polloi out is understandable ;

b) too mysterious and "Speerchull" for the practically-minded, who may not have the patience to wait for the teaching to take hold and

c) difficult to put into words and functional principles that have a common foundation in our language.

"The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names."

That is something we have never done in the West in adopting these concepts. We have several big toolboxes we could use to tinker with them that we are not using because we have no proper names for them.

It really is one problem in three aspects. If we properly name "Aiki," and by extension "KI," in our terminology, these problems would tend to diminish. Training would improve, generally, with more ways to get at and unbundle the material for teaching and understadning what is taught. I think I am making some headway on that, although others may disagree with me. :p

[Allen Beebe]

About 37 years ago my dearly departed Dad gave me a book on Jujutsu for my birthday. This book contained pictures and instructions for performing, what in my opinion at the time were, fantastic feats. I was totally hooked on martial arts. My dad and I watched Kung Fu movies together and I checked out the one Karate and the one Kung Fu book that was available from the public library at the time. I studied every word and picture as meticulously as I possibly could and replicated every move to the best of my ability.

I had a friend at school that was as crazy about Martial Arts as I was and one day we agreed to bring our uniforms to school to show each other. I made a cool purplish/black belt from some strap that my mom had and packed it together with my bathrobe. When we got together and shared, I criticized my friend's outfit because his green belt was obviously all wrong. It was easily twice as long as it needed to be and wasn't nearly as wide as the ones I saw in the Kung Fu movies. He asked to see mine and upon viewing it suggested that we wait in the class as the other kids leave for the playground and show each other "our moves."

Our plan went off OK. (This was 37 years ago remember, teachers didn't have to be as vigilant as today.) Alone in the classroom I showed him forms that I had been practicing and shared the detailed rational that I had memorized from my books. My friend listened and watched politely and when his turn came he just asked me to punch or kick him. I was instantly sent flying into the nearby desks and chairs. My wounded pride and rising anger dictated that I re-double my efforts and experience the same embarrassing results. At that point It was painfully clear to my friend that I was all talk and no walk with regards to my Martial Arts training and experience. It was painfully clear to me that my friend could DO what I had only read about, conceptualized, self-engineered and dreamed of. He could do what I couldn't.

The difference that made the difference wasn't that he was older, wiser, or had better theoretical understanding of Martial Arts. The difference was he actually went and trained with somebody who showed him the theoretical understanding (My theoretical understanding!) in action and taught my friend how to do it.

I unfortunately lost a friend that day, but I did learn a valuable lesson. Not long afterward, I went and found someone who could do what I "understood" and who was willing to teach me to do it as well. I trained hard and found that soon I was able to do what my friend did . . . I even learned how to tie on one of those ridiculously long belts!

Epilogue: In time I wasn't entirely satisfied doing what I had initially read about. I continued to read and was captivated by stories of demur men (and at least one woman) that could perform, in my opinion, fantastic feats. I read the books, studied the pictures, explanations and instructions, sought out movies and constructed what I considered to be plausible rational explanations and theories (psychological and physical) for what I saw and tried them out . . . all the while keeping my eyes open for someone who could DO the fantastic feats and who would teach them to me . . .

. . . and so it goes . . .

[Walker]

Allen, this is why you are such a cool guy. Telling this kind of story on yourself to such a quixotic purpose is true compassion in action.
Proud to be your friend and student.

[Aikibu]

Great Story Allan!

Reminds me of the time I knocked myself out with my own nunchucks when I was about 12.

In front of the entire Dojo.:eek:

"Everybody was Kung Fu Fiiiighting... Those cats were quick as liiiighting..." :D

William Hazen

[statisticool]

Reminds me of the time I knocked myself out with my own nunchucks when I was about 12.


Oh god, (almost) ditto for me. That might explain my current drain bramage.