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David Yap
02-29-2008, 02:52 AM
Hi all,

George Ledyard sensei wrote about Aikido being in danger of losing any connection with what the Founder taught and did himself. I believe this has already happened. In most dojo websites we may find homage to the Founder, his biography and his creation of Aikido (or some may call it a re-invention or watered-down version of Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu) based on his personal philosophy and religious belief. Any good martial artist (not necessary in skill but in conviction) will know the differentiation of one martial art from another lays at core of the philosophy of its founder or initiator. In aikido websites, the art is always promoted as a unique martial art -- a martial art of benevolence, the art of peace.

A highly skill martial artist will acknowledge that aikido is a deadly art. A Daito-ryu practitioner will not look at aikido as a watered-down version of his art -- fundamentally, there is little difference between the two. Without the pollution factor, water is water whether in China or in India. What make these arts safe to practice is the art within the art itself -- the art of ukeme. Similarly in karate, while its practitioners train with kime (an explosive attack to the target using appropriate technique and maximum power in the shortest time possible), they are also required to perfect the art of sundome. In a sparring match where a punch or kick has penetrated a defense, what stops an injury by the punch or kick is practice of sundome -- stopping 3 centimeters from the intended target. Karate's sundome is an act of benevolence; similar to ukeme it has to be perfected -- 3 centimeters (circa) and no more.

Equivalent to a highly skilled stunt driver stopping his fast moving vehicle just inches in front of a brick wall, the act of benevolence by a martial artist requires perfection of his techniques. Can a swordsman avoid cutting a person if he cannot control his cuts? Can percussion martial artist avoid hitting vital organs if he cannot even aim his strike and kick?

Perfection of techniques can only be acquired by continuous training and repetition of the same core basic techniques.

What has happen to the connection to Founder? How/when/why did the connection cease? I can only put forth this analogy.

My eleven years old daughter brought home three of her mates to do a class assignment; baking a cake, just a simple butter cake. They are not required to show the cake in class just write a report as to how they did it and how the cake would turn out, comment on its taste and texture, etc. With the help of my wife who assisted with the required ingredients, instructions on kneading of dough, temperature of the oven, etc. the cake turned out pretty well. Not knowing the specifics of the assignment, my wife told the kids that they could decorate the cake with some icing and couple of them gleefully said, "Let's, let's do it!"

Again, my wife showed them how to make the icing and to spread it on the cake with a spreading knife. Then one of them, "Can we put some writing on it" So my wife mixed a coloring to some remaining icing, put the mixture into a icing gun and squeezed on the cake to form the letters of my daughter's name. "Cool" they exclaimed and each of them took turns to put their names using different colored icing on the cake. Next someone said, "I got some jelly beans, let's stick them on the cake". So they covered the cake with decorations until there wasn't any space left on its surface. "This is so cool", said my daughter, "Let's call Hazel, Jacky and Kit and we will do it again tomorrow"

And, so the next morning in the kitchen there were six more mates and three more cakes to be baked and decorated. The girls had a wonderful time in the kitchen and the cakes were taken home to show their parents. As for the assignment…"what assignment?"

At some dojo, the only connection to the Founder is the photograph of him and perhaps a copy of his calligraphy of Ai-Ki-Do written in kanji hanging on the dojo wall.

What has happened to his aikido? Well, you can say it has evolved, enhanced or should I say "decorated". The objective for training has changed -- students want to have a wonderful time; they are not interested in aiki principles. Students are awed by performance of the techniques -- not in the mechanics of the techniques. The teacher-student relationship of the old has become a vendor-buyer relationship and even a performer-audience relationship. There are teachers who have lost focus and strayed from the correct path but then there are others who have diverged from the path intentionally. In either case, they took along with them their ignorant and awe-struck students. Sad thing is that they are still identified with aikido.

Why do some people hate aikido? The answer to this thread is that the seasoned martial artists and intellectuals just could not reconcile the literature they have read on aikido and it's Founder with the teaching or the lack of it in these MMA Clubs.

Some people have pointed out what are lacking in present day aikido compared with the Founder's and that of early generations of deshi. They are asking what has happened to the plain simple cake; a cake so good that you can eat it on its own. I fail to see why certain people are so upset with this observation.

FWIW

David Y

d2l
02-29-2008, 05:19 AM
A highly skill martial artist will acknowledge that aikido is a deadly art. A Daito-ryu practitioner will not look at aikido as a watered-down version of his art -- fundamentally, there is little difference between the two.

Dave, I whole heartedly agree. My school teaches both the "do" and "jutsu". We look at it like you can not have one without the other. Very good post!

Chris Parkerson
02-29-2008, 05:54 AM
Hi all,
What has happened to his aikido? Well, you can say it has evolved, enhanced or should I say "decorated". The objective for training has changed -- students want to have a wonderful time; they are not interested in aiki principles. Students are awed by performance of the techniques -- not in the mechanics of the techniques. The teacher-student relationship of the old has become a vendor-buyer relationship and even a performer-audience relationship.
FWIW
David Y

Hi Dave,

A well written post. I am very interested in your thoughts.
I was trained as a theologian and the process of (1) finding the historical Jesus and (2) interpreting the meaning of the early church pastors is obviously of great importance to maintaining a consistent orthodox tradition as history moves on, and as Christianity spreads to different cultures. I am also raised in the U.S. and speak from that perspective as others will likely speak from their personal background in responding to this post.

Thesis

As times change, as time speeds up, as cross cultural influences impact a globalized Aikido, a trajectory must occur when reading the words of Founder. The trajectory takes the "intent" of the author and interprets it for a specific generation, culture, etc.

Challenge

How would you create and maintain an Aikido orthodoxy? Should it maintain a direct connection with Asian teaching methods? Asian thought processes? Should Americans (being pragmatists), for instance, find ways to shorten and improve the process to answer the challenge of how so few people have the kind of time to devote to the art like people did 60 years ago? Can Aikido have a family-bonding element that may not have been addressed by Founder?

Your thoughts would be most appreciated.

Nick P.
02-29-2008, 06:35 AM
Good read, and thank you.

Simply put, why did O-Sensei choose to name his art Aikido, and not Aikijutsu or Aikibudo? The answer, I think, is pretty clear.

More importantly, who really cares what others do or do not do?

As long as you think what you are doing is what the founder said to do, then just do it. Others may come around and say "Yes! This is what O-Sensei meant!", great.

If they come around and say "Whoa! That is not Aikido!" that is fine too. It should not change your perception of O-Sensei's teachings. It should stimulate within you some curiosity, which might lead to a change in your perception, but not immediate change.

I have always maintained that if you were a student of O-Sensei the day before he attained his enlightenment, or the first month of his Aikido, or the first 5 years of his Aikido, or the last 2 years of his Aikido, in each of those time-frames you probably would not have been seeing the same thing. Yes, some basic principles likely remained the same, but just look at the pre-war videos and pictures, and compare those to just before his passing. Very, very different, in my eyes.

To minimize the polution over time, only train directly under his students, which raises a host of other issues. I attended a seminar given by Chiba sensei, and a couple of months later, Hagihara sensei. In my limited perception, one spoke to me far more than the other, yet they are both direct students. Go figure.

So, which Aikido are we talking about? I think we are talking about the one that speaks the most to you.

*NOTE* All above references to "you" are not aimed at Mr. Yap. It is the more generic "you."

dps
02-29-2008, 07:36 AM
MMMMMMM jelly beans!!!!!

Scrape the frosting off the cake, save the jelly beans.

David

gdandscompserv
02-29-2008, 09:36 AM
Oh, get on with your bad 'ole killer self's.:D

CitoMaramba
02-29-2008, 09:56 AM
If Mickey Mouse Aikido Clubs do Mouse Aikido, do Secret Squirrel Aikido Clubs do Squirrel Aikido? How about Rocky and Bullwinkle Clubs? Squirrel and Moose Aikido?:D
I shudder to think what Donald Duck and Goofy Aikido are like... :p

dps
02-29-2008, 10:06 AM
If Mickey Mouse Aikido Clubs do Mouse Aikido, do Secret Squirrel Aikido Clubs do Squirrel Aikido? How about Rocky and Bullwinkle Clubs? Squirrel and Moose Aikido?:D
I shudder to think what Donald Duck and Goofy Aikido are like... :p

Whatever the style of Aikido whether it is Mickey Mouse, Squirrel, Rocky & Bullwinkle, Donald Duck or goofy it is still basically Aikido. And if you scrape of the frosting (practice) you will find the cake. Save the jelly beans for me.

David

CitoMaramba
02-29-2008, 10:32 AM
Whatever the style of Aikido whether it is Mickey Mouse, Squirrel, Rocky & Bullwinkle, Donald Duck or goofy it is still basically Aikido. And if you scrape of the frosting (practice) you will find the cake. Save the jelly beans for me.

David

Sometimes the frosting gets scraped away to find that there's no cake underneath. Oh well... :D

ChrisMoses
02-29-2008, 11:02 AM
Simply put, why did O-Sensei choose to name his art Aikido, and not Aikijutsu or Aikibudo? The answer, I think, is pretty clear.

Just a point of clarification, Osensei didn't name the art "Aikido" he called it a few different things including "Aikibudo". :)

He accepted the term and ran with it, but didn't actually choose that name.

Nick P.
02-29-2008, 11:27 AM
Just a point of clarification, Osensei didn't name the art "Aikido" he called it a few different things including "Aikibudo". :)

He accepted the term and ran with it, but didn't actually choose that name.

Thats not how I understand it at all; Aikido was the name he chose for his art...
1. "Ueshiba decided on the name "Aikido" in 1942 (before that he called his martial art "aikibudo" and "aikinomichi")." from http://www.aikidofaq.com/history/index.html

2. pick any from here...http://www.aikiweb.com/general/

Also, running with the cake analogy, some would argue that if the cake was made using 3.5 eggs instead of 4, or worse, tofu instead of eggs, than it is no longer the same cake...or even considered cake at all.

Me? I'll eat whatever tastes tasty. Heated in an oven or not ;)

ChrisMoses
02-29-2008, 11:43 AM
From this article (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=87) on AJ:

I believe you played major role in the name-change from aiki budo to aikido when you were a representative of the Kobukan Dojo to the Dai Nihon Butokukai (see side bar).

I was the Director of General Affairs of the Kobukan beginning around 1942 and I helped out Ueshiba Sensei in daily matters. “Aikido,” rather than being a specifically selected name, was the term used to refer to “Butokukai-Ryu” aiki budo within the Dai Nippon Butokukai. The headquarters of the Dai Nippon Butokukai was located in Kyoto and Butokuden centers were set up in all prefectures. Tatsuo Hisatomi from the Kodokan, and Shohei Fujinuma from kendo, were close friends of mine. The Butokukai was an independent, umbrella organization for the martial arts, and it also was in charge of martial arts in the police departments.

It was very difficult to create a new section in the Butokukai at that time. Mr. Hisatomi proposed the establishment of a new section including arts for actual fighting based on jujutsu techniques. The techniques of yawara (an alternate term for jujutsu) are comprehensive and also include the use of the ken and jo. I also made a number of suggestions and Mr. Fujinuma and Mr. Hisatomi understood my ideas. However, had I insisted on these things nothing would have been decided.

There was discussion within the Butokukai about the choice of a name for this new section. It was discussed many times in meetings of the Board of Directors, and particularly in the judo and kendo sections. We had to consider all of the different individual arts encompassed when we tried to come up with an all-inclusive name. It was decided to select an inoffensive name to avoid future friction among the different martial arts.

Mr. Hisatomi argued for his proposal energetically and explained that “aikido” would be a better name than aiki budo for this new section, because it would be better to stress the idea of “michi” or way. He proposed that the name “aikido” be used as term to designate an all-inclusive budo and I agreed with him.

In other words, the term “aikido” was a cover-all term that could include other things as well. Mr. Hisatomi’s idea was to intentionally select a name that would not be opposed by kendo or other martial arts, but rather an inoffensive, comprehensive term to group together all of the yawara schools. In the end, no one opposed this proposal.

Of course, this was certainly a big problem at the time. I can’t say anything more specific about it. Everyone should follow the path they believe in.

phitruong
02-29-2008, 11:54 AM
If Mickey Mouse Aikido Clubs do Mouse Aikido, do Secret Squirrel Aikido Clubs do Squirrel Aikido? How about Rocky and Bullwinkle Clubs? Squirrel and Moose Aikido?:D
I shudder to think what Donald Duck and Goofy Aikido are like... :p

I don't believe mickey, rocky, bullwinkle, donald duck and goofy have ever study martial arts much less aikido. on the other hand, there were strong evidents that daffy duck has studied various koryu, is an accomplished ki master. daffy has demonstrated kokyu power on a number of occasions along with a version of, possibly Iwama linage, aiki jo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehqaRvlo5pg

daffy also joined a new religion headed by porky pig the monk who has shown to be a hidden master of ki that can stop a direct attack with just a tooth pick.

Chris Parkerson
02-29-2008, 12:24 PM
The essential question remains for me...

What is the core of Aikido that will still be recognizable in another 60 years.

Will your dojo survive a major recession or serious depression?

Will your dojo survive a war that goes beyond terrorism and morphs into a war over things like "usable water"?

If Founder's ideas and practice went through changes before and after WWII, does it even matter that your's might as well?

What will there be that keeps it integrally "Aikido".

Nick P.
02-29-2008, 12:48 PM
@ Mr Moses,

Compelling, but would we not interpret that to mean the choice the Butokukai chose to give it?
"A modern Japanese martial art developed by Morihei UESHIBA incorporating joint-lock and throwing techniques applied in self-defense with the intent of not injuring or causing only minimal damage to the attacker. The techniques of aikido derive mainly from the DAITO-RYU AIKIJUJUTSU of Sokaku TAKEDA. Philosophically, Ueshiba was greatly influenced by the views of Onisaburo DEGUCHI, leader of the OMOTO RELIGION. The art evolved gradually during the late 1920s and 30s under various names. Its modern name was officially adopted in 1942 as a result of the reorganization of Japanese martial arts by the DAI NIHON BUTOKUKAI. Its emergence as a major martial art and its spread outside of Japan took place after World War II." from http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=18

Regardless, the difference between what name was chosen (aikibudo) or what name was relented to (aikido) by O-Sensei is, in my mind, rather small. The difference, not my mind.... :)

I am almost certain I have seen a quote, somewhere, by Ueshiba Kisshomaru quoting his father as saying he had decided on this name...but at the moment am at a loss to produce it.

ChrisMoses
02-29-2008, 12:51 PM
Regardless, the difference between what name was chosen (aikibudo) or what name was relented to (aikido) by O-Sensei is, in my mind, rather small.

I perhaps miss your earlier point then, it seemed that you were drawing attention to OSensei's choice to move away from bu in his art?

Ron Tisdale
02-29-2008, 02:19 PM
Nick, Chris is correct. Very well documented. It may not be a huge difference in your mind, but since you brought up names like aikibudo, which he did choose at some point, and contrasted the two...an important difference.

Best,
Ron

David Yap
02-29-2008, 09:47 PM
Whatever the style of Aikido whether it is Mickey Mouse, Squirrel, Rocky & Bullwinkle, Donald Duck or goofy it is still basically Aikido. And if you scrape of the frosting (practice) you will find the cake. Save the jelly beans for me.

Sometimes the frosting gets scraped away to find that there's no cake underneath

…So, which Aikido are we talking about? I think we are talking about the one that speaks the most to you…
…Also, running with the cake analogy, some would argue that if the cake was made using 3.5 eggs instead of 4, or worse, tofu instead of eggs, than it is no longer the same cake...or even considered cake at all.

Me? I'll eat whatever tastes tasty. Heated in an oven or not

Hi gentlemen,

Precisely, the analogy is about how we practice the art. Most importantly, it is about the "shidoin" /"sensei" and his/her charges (students). It is said that Aikido means different things to different people. The key point is what it means to the "sensei".

I perhaps miss your earlier point then, it seemed that you were drawing attention to OSensei's choice to move away from bu in his art?

I think this is one of the reasons for the disconnection. Some people have the impression that O Sensei has moved away from the bu in his art. They think that his techniques are watered down versions of the ones he learned before. Perhaps this thinking caused them to add back frosting and icing. Dropping the kanji "bu" does not mean that he has moved away. He had said and his son had said, "Aikido is budo". IMHO, The key to "bu" is "aiki", hence "aiki" is "bu", hence aikido=budo. BU is always there.

Some think that aikido is not a martial art. In a sense, they are right -- "incomplete" aikido is too dangerous to be called a martial art. There is benevolence in all martial arts. The act of benevolence is art itself. Benevolence must be sincere then the resulting ukeme will be sincere and martial form will appear. "Incomplete" aikido are sometime viewed as a dance.

Everyone have the impression that O Sensei led the way, then his son and now his grandson. Then what are roles of the "shihan", "shidoin", "sensei" and the "senpai"?

Aiki Do is like a coin, it has two equal sides -- Bu and Do. The thing about coin is that you can view one side/face at a time; the only time that you can view both sides is when you put it in front of a mirror -- now that is reflection (pun intended). Another thing about a coin is that some prefer the view of one face more than the other face - that happens after knowing that there are two sides to a coin. Coins are just coins; you receive and dispense them with all their sides/faces in tact.

It is also said that one judges the quality of the teacher by the qualities of his/her students. If one professes to have the skill and qualification to teach or ‘sell' his art to others, then by all means pass on the art /skill in totality regardless whether the students choose to accept or not. One cannot give away half a coin or one cannot give away a coin that one does not possess in the first place. Lately, I have been receiving some "one-sided" coins from senior students with years of experience. So, where indeed did these coins come from?

Unlike cakes, coins cannot be decorated.

FWIW

David Y

David Yap
03-01-2008, 03:52 AM
Challenge
1. How would you create and maintain an Aikido orthodoxy?
2. Should it maintain a direct connection with Asian teaching methods? Asian thought processes?
3. Should Americans (being pragmatists), for instance, find ways to shorten and improve the process to answer the challenge of how so few people have the kind of time to devote to the art like people did 60 years ago?
4. Can Aikido have a family-bonding element that may not have been addressed by Founder?


Hi Chris,

To answer your questions:

1. I am not qualified to say what is or isn't the Founder's Aikido, let alone can create and maintain Aikido orthodoxy. As an aikido student, I am many generations remote from the Founder. Though my current teacher was a deshi at Hombu dojo in the 60s, he doesn't talk about the spiritual aspect of the art. He is a very reserve person, like his aikido, he is plain and simple. As for his waza, I would say that it's a kind that taste good on its own. Of course, for some who love "decorations" might find it bland..
As for Aikido orthodoxy, it is already existing -- lineages from Hikitsuchi, Shirata, Shioda, Saito and most of the first generation shihan in North America and Europe.
My latest musing about the state of aikido comes from my 37 years of martial art practice. As a "connoisseur", I can tell that some of the Aiki flavor and even Do flavor are gone due to over "decorations and icing".

2. Perhaps. I put it down to an EGO thing pertinent to martial art and the pitfall of the concept of Shu-Ha-Ri. During the night, some "sensei" may wake up to think that they have acquired satori and a purpose to re-invent the art. Some create MMA dojo and some, just McDojo. I wonder which are better dojo. [MMA dojo for definition are legitimate but most do not have direct supervision of a shihan or a specific lineage. Hence, the techniques and syllabus for grading are the dojo-cho's own creations]

3. My musings of aikido is from a small community in Malaysia. In Asia, we concede that all the superlatives are in America -- including ego. I believe there are more MMA Clubs in USA than anywhere else.

4. Aikido like all martial art already has the family-bonding element (I guess you mean the fraternity element). It is evident here in Aikiweb. In fact, my musings here can result in my death on the mats.

Thanks for listening.

David Y

CitoMaramba
03-01-2008, 04:05 AM
David, can you give concrete examples of the "frosting and icing"? Without naming names of course.. wouldn't want to cause your "death on the mats"!

David Yap
03-01-2008, 05:40 AM
David, can you give concrete examples of the "frosting and icing"? Without naming names of course.. wouldn't want to cause your "death on the mats"!

Hello Cito,

Well, let say a simple pin technique that requires 3~4 steps to complete, MMA will add in 3 more. Probably 2 atemi to the face and one shuto to the elbow or ribs.

For a simple irimi nage, say a tenkan version. as uke come up from the floor, nage atemi uke in the face instead of tilting uke's head to execute the throw. Uke now turns away from the atemi and do a forward roll/flip (normally a ushiro ukeme is done)

Just image using the following diagrams:

A technique that normally requires 3 steps :circle: :triangle: :square:

Add in a few atemi or turns you can create :triangle: :circle: :circle: :triangle: :circle: :circle: :square:

The practice is not geared towards prefection of the waza. The ukeme is not just to avoid injury but designed to make the nage looked good. There is a element of chereography but be careful though, the nage might changed his routine half way the technique and smacked some extra atemi into uke's face or throw uke in a different way or angle. In a way it is martial but inconsistent. "This is how you fight in a real world" claimed a senior. Somehow, you get the feeling that you are preparing to do a public demo on aikido. A lot flips and swirls of the hakama. Nage will sometime "assist" with flow of Uke's hakama, for example,.in a kotegaeshi as just uke is flipping over, nage yank nage's arm upwards thus providing a spectacular lift up into the air for uke to decend downward.

The truth of the matter is that in a jiyu waza or nanin-gake, The nage will be crobbled by one uke while giving the extra atemi or turns or twists to the other

Because of the inconsistency, there is no immediate trust between the uke and nage. Trust is built up after familiarization with nage's behavior. Horsing around during and after class is common and so is injury.

So, Cita, anyone can do decorations. In Shoriji Kempo it is called "Embu" - prearranged sparring. When properly co-ordinated, Bu is present and when it is not, Do is absent.

FWIW

David Y

CitoMaramba
03-01-2008, 07:19 AM
Hi David,
Thanks for the examples.
I agree that inclusion of unnecessary atemi is "frosting and decoration". Note that I said "unnecessary" because I subscribe to the following dicta:
1. In Aikido the outcome should be decided in the moment of contact
2. Throws and pins are done with the rhythm and feeling of atemi

In the example you gave, the atemi in the face is unnecessary and actually creates a "suki" (opening) for uke to counter the irimi-nage (with sankyo, for instance).

What I am also concerned with is people doing a form of Aikido that is all frosting and no cake beneath... It has the outward appearance of Aikido but has absolutely no martial intent or application.
Have a look at this video for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20-4zDQSO9k

David Yap
03-01-2008, 08:27 AM
Hi David,
...What I am also concerned with is people doing a form of Aikido that is all frosting and no cake beneath... It has the outward appearance of Aikido but has absolutely no martial intent or application.
Have a look at this video for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20-4zDQSO9k

Bad example, Cito.

Those were kids in yellow belts (9th kyu??). Show me two adults with black belts and wearing hakama doing the same thing and I will agree it is frosting with no cake.

Cheers

David Y

crbateman
03-01-2008, 08:42 AM
I am almost certain I have seen a quote, somewhere, by Ueshiba Kisshomaru quoting his father as saying he had decided on this name...Not flaming here, but this doesn't make it so. With all due respects, Kisshomaru Doshu also chose other things (and people, too) to be "selectively" remembered and forgotten.

David Yap
03-01-2008, 08:48 AM
Hi Cito,

This is a continuation of my last post:
From my last post, you didn't notice from the diagrams as to why the Nage could manage to execute those extra steps. Did he not break Uke's balance and posture? Or, did he lost control and allow Uke to regain his/her posture? Aikido is about intent. Did Nage intend to neutralise Uke's aggression in the shortest time or was it his intention to toy with the Uke? In the same context, where's the cake?

Cheers
david Y

gregg block
03-01-2008, 09:00 AM
ok

CitoMaramba
03-01-2008, 09:00 AM
Bad example, Cito.

Those were kids in yellow belts (9th kyu??). Show me two adults with black belts and wearing hakama doing the same thing and I will agree it is frosting with no cake.

Cheers

David Y

Well I remember a 10 year old boy at my first club who was failed during his first grading... but he showed more martial intent during his exam than the two children in the video..

It's never too early to impart the core of Aikido as a Budo.. but that's just my humble opinion :D

CitoMaramba
03-01-2008, 09:13 AM
Hi Cito,

This is a continuation of my last post:
From my last post, you didn't notice from the diagrams as to why the Nage could manage to execute those extra steps. Did he not break Uke's balance and posture? Or, did he lost control and allow Uke to regain his/her posture? Aikido is about intent. Did Nage intend to neutralise Uke's aggression in the shortest time or was it his intention to toy with the Uke? In the same context, where's the cake?

Cheers
david Y

Hi David.
Just to make things clear, let me say right away that I agree with you :) .
Now that that is out of the way..

If Tori did not break balance (kuzushi), then he/she did not follow Dictum 1 (see my previous post). The same, if Tori lost control of Uke.
If Tori was toying with Uke then that is ego at work which has no place in budo practice
Those extra steps are potential suki which can be used by uke to counter tori (in a real situation).
Any change (henka-waza). should be in response to a real change in uke's intent / aggression / etc. Any change just to "look good" is again just ego at work and a potential suki in a real situation.

Cheers,

Cito

CitoMaramba
03-01-2008, 09:20 AM
I don't believe mickey, rocky, bullwinkle, donald duck and goofy have ever study martial arts much less aikido. on the other hand, there were strong evidents that daffy duck has studied various koryu, is an accomplished ki master. daffy has demonstrated kokyu power on a number of occasions along with a version of, possibly Iwama linage, aiki jo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehqaRvlo5pg

daffy also joined a new religion headed by porky pig the monk who has shown to be a hidden master of ki that can stop a direct attack with just a tooth pick.

Any one who can use a Green Lantern Power Ring must have strong ki! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suaN8Ed3KDo

Dan Rubin
03-01-2008, 12:07 PM
I am almost certain I have seen a quote, somewhere, by Ueshiba Kisshomaru quoting his father as saying he had decided on this name...but at the moment am at a loss to produce it.

My understanding is that soon after the name "aikido" was given to a division of the Dai Nihon Butokukai, O Sensei decided to give the same name to his art.

Nick P.
03-01-2008, 01:47 PM
Not flaming here, but this doesn't make it so. With all due respects, Kisshomaru Doshu also chose other things (and people, too) to be "selectively" remembered and forgotten.

1. If I am going to be flamed, might as well be by you, someone who I respect.
2. Are you telling me that people, even Doshus, have selective memories? Whats next, that I cant believe everything I read? Point taken.

Perhaps the point I was trying to make, now that I think about it, was that I understand O-Sensei to have not only moved through different arts (apparently mastering some), but also kept the name, and focus, of his art evolving. It would stand to reason that his goals, like everyones, shift and change over time, but I believe that one of the messages he left us with was that his art was "..not a technique to fight with or defeat the enemy. It is the way to reconcile to world and make human beings one family."
I am still not clear, and maybe never will be, on how much of the cake is bu, and how much is do.

On the point of what O-Sensei called his art, I guess I stand corrected, but do have a couple of questions on this point, but the most important would have to be: what would he have called it during, say, the last year of his life? Would his answer have been one to not cause confusion, or have been one that he felt in his heart best described it?

FWIW.

Pehaps this merits it's own thread, and sorry for the jacking.

crbateman
03-01-2008, 03:21 PM
I am still not clear, and maybe never will be, on how much of the cake is bu, and how much is do.I think this depends on who (and when) you ask. O-Sensei evolved, and his Aikido evolved. There were others who didn't go exactly the same way.

What would he have called it during, say, the last year of his life? Would his answer have been one to not cause confusion, or have been one that he felt in his heart best described it?I wasn't there (sure wish I was), but the impression I get from my reading and the people I have discussed it with, is that his later years were spent in reflection and refinement of his ideas. Much of his musing was cryptic, or at least very much open to individual interpretation. I don't see anything that would lead me to believe he was profoundly interested that his ideas be completely understood by others, but simply wanted to be true to his beliefs. But this was after his retirement, and while there was no occasion to deal with the politics (or the headaches) of running his organization. I have also heard nothing about his having expressed any late-life misgivings about the name of the art.

Nick P.
03-01-2008, 04:38 PM
My questions, to some degree, are aimed at O-Sensei directly; of course it is all conjecture on our parts, but the ideal scenario would have been to ask him, directly, in the last couple years of his life..."Sensei, why are we training? What is the direction/goal our training should take?"

Failing that, seek out his direct and most recent students, and attempt to apply what (7th, 8th, and 9th dans, yeah right!) are trying to show/tell you.

I am thankful to have been educated by this thread on the beginnnings of the term aikido, but after reading the quote supplied by Mr. Moses, am left with the image that there is a collection of arts that share the name "aikido", but likely share little resemblence to what we collectively think of when we say aikido, and probably, and I mean no disrespect, lead a relatively obscure existence.

David Yap
03-01-2008, 08:58 PM
My questions, to some degree, are aimed at O-Sensei directly; of course it is all conjecture on our parts, but the ideal scenario would have been to ask him, directly, in the last couple years of his life..."Sensei, why are we training? What is the direction/goal our training should take?"...snip

Hi Nick,

Perhaps this article can be of assistance, it made reference to Akira Tohei shihan, one of O Sensei's deshi.

http://www.aikidobarbados.com/Tokuiku_Taiiku.pdf

The article was written by Dr. Hiroaki Izumi.

Cheers

David Y

Steven
03-01-2008, 09:02 PM
Bad example, Cito.

Those were kids in yellow belts (9th kyu??). Show me two adults with black belts and wearing hakama doing the same thing and I will agree it is frosting with no cake.

Cheers

David Y

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9OqMLzVKAJs

David Yap
03-01-2008, 09:10 PM
It's never too early to impart the core of Aikido as a Budo.. but that's just my humble opinion :D

Hi Cito,

Couldn't agree with you more.

Cheers

David Y

David Yap
03-01-2008, 09:30 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9OqMLzVKAJs

Thanks so much, Steven.

I haven't laugh so much reading the comments shown on the video. They should have put in some music in it. I can see the cake but there were too many fruits on cake.

The aikido bashings posted there are outrageous.

David Y

lbb
03-02-2008, 06:44 PM
Thanks so much, Steven.

I haven't laugh so much reading the comments shown on the video. They should have put in some music in it. I can see the cake but there were too many fruits on cake.
I found many of the comments to be homophobic, along with the title of the video (and your comment isn't exactly what I'd call enlightened either).

David Yap
03-02-2008, 07:27 PM
I found many of the comments to be homophobic, along with the title of the video (and your comment isn't exactly what I'd call enlightened either).

Mary,

I laughed at the comments appearing in the video clip. My laughters are not on the other posts commenting about it. I agree with you that the comments about the video clips are mostly homophobic.

I posted that I can see the aiki principles (the cake) applied and there were too many fruits (decorations). Perhaps my post wasn't explicit enough.

The fruits create suki (openings) allowing application of kaeshi waza. There was an intention why these guys came up with this routine - to show their artistic talent, chereographic skill and whatnot. The point is that it was recorded and the video was downloaded to a public domain for all and sundry to comment. People who don't do aikido would get the wrong impresssion of the art. Even people who do aikido do not even see their intention. Similarly, there were a lot of negative comments about Watanabe shihan's comical no touch aikido routine at the annual aikikai demos but people who know Watanable shihan know his aikido is very martial.

Would you use this video routine in your regular practice? I wouldn't but I would use this video an educational tool for the students to explain the purpose of kaeshi waza.

FWIW

David Y

crbateman
03-02-2008, 09:47 PM
David, I think Mary was referring to your use of the word "fruit", which is often used as a derogatory reference to gay people. Sometimes, cultural and language differences create this type of misunderstanding.

David Yap
03-02-2008, 10:25 PM
David, I think Mary was referring to your use of the word "fruit", which is often used as a derogatory reference to gay people. Sometimes, cultural and language differences create this type of misunderstanding.

:o Oops

Point taken. Thank you

David Y

ChrisMoses
03-03-2008, 08:33 AM
I am thankful to have been educated by this thread on the beginnnings of the term aikido, but after reading the quote supplied by Mr. Moses, am left with the image that there is a collection of arts that share the name "aikido", but likely share little resemblence to what we collectively think of when we say aikido, and probably, and I mean no disrespect, lead a relatively obscure existence.

Just Chris please. :)

That does seem to have been the intent, although other than some of the Korindo Aikido (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korindo) groups, most systems that use the term Aikido, trace themselves back to Ueshiba Morihei. Some lines of Daito Ryu have also gone by "Aikido" at times (Takumakai for example), although they began their study of DR under OSensei.

(Not making a point, just filling in more detail 'cause I'm a nerd.)

crbateman
03-03-2008, 10:16 AM
Another "Aikido" usage that claims it's lineage directly from DRJJ (not Takeda), and without influence from O'Sensei, is the Nihon Goshin Aikido system, as currently taught in NYC by Richard Bowe.

David Yap
03-03-2008, 11:25 AM
Another "Aikido" usage that claims it's lineage directly from DRJJ (not Takeda), and without influence from O'Sensei, is the Nihon Goshin Aikido system, as currently taught in NYC by Richard Bowe.

Hi all,

FYI, my thread refers to the Aikido linked to Ueshiba only. Do dojo under the Korindo Aikido group and the Nihon Goshin Aikido system link their lineages to Ueshiba and hang photographs of his likeness in their dojo walls? These groups have the least linkage (perhaps zero) at all.

Is there a possibility that MMA style would not have evoluted if the names like Aikijutsu and Aikibudo, etc. have been maintained? When Bruce Lee created Jeet Kune Do from his base art Wing Chun Kuan, we can still see some Wing Chun moves in his new art. Bruce Lee could walk the talk and talk the walk - he talked about his philosophy on JKD.

When an aikidoka wants to do the same with aikido, can he still practice under the name of aikido even if he/she has diverted from its path (whatever Ryu)?

FWIW

David Y

crbateman
03-03-2008, 02:25 PM
...can he still practice under the name of aikido even if he/she has diverted from its path (whatever Ryu)?Can he? I suppose so. It's done every day. Should he? That is another matter altogether.

Ketsan
03-03-2008, 07:17 PM
Thanks so much, Steven.

I haven't laugh so much reading the comments shown on the video. They should have put in some music in it. I can see the cake but there were too many fruits on cake.

The aikido bashings posted there are outrageous.

David Y

It's actually performance art. The same vid is posted some where else on youtube with a full explination.

Damn I love arguing on that threat though. :D

Erick Mead
03-03-2008, 08:08 PM
My questions, to some degree, are aimed at O-Sensei directly; of course it is all conjecture on our parts, but the ideal scenario would have been to ask him, directly, in the last couple years of his life..."Sensei, why are we training? What is the direction/goal our training should take?" Terry Dobson has recounted that in ten years of training with O Sensei, he only ever asked him one direct question . The question is unimportant, the answer is not. He answered, " Find out for yourself."

David Yap
03-03-2008, 08:29 PM
Terry Dobson has recounted that in ten years of training with O Sensei, he only ever asked him one direct question . The question is unimportant, the answer is not. He answered, " Find out for yourself."

Perhaps he meant to say, "To find yourself".

Sometimes, cultural and language differences create this type of misunderstanding:D

Rgds

David Y

Robyn Johnson
03-03-2008, 10:45 PM
I thought this thread was really about Mickey Mouse doing Aikido.

If this attached picture shows, it's an actual foreign Disney stamp of Mickey and Donald doing Aikido that someone put a magnet on the back. Bought it years ago off of E-bay and it's on the fridge now. :)

Robyn :D

Peter Seth
03-04-2008, 06:09 AM
Hi Everyone.
Havnt posted for a while - interesting thread this. Ive skimmed over the posts and it seems the interest lies in not losing or diluting O'sensei's art. Its a good thing to have a baseline, a set of roots to develop. Saying that, I believe aikido/budo whatever is 'organic' it should naturally grow and develop into a rich and even diverse art with the varied input of good hearted people. We are all different and interpret things differntly, no one has the right to say that is/is not aikido. Keeping basic principles and adding to them can only be a good thing.
pete

Ketsan
03-04-2008, 06:24 AM
I thought this thread was really about Mickey Mouse doing Aikido.

If this attached picture shows, it's an actual foreign Disney stamp of Mickey and Donald doing Aikido that someone put a magnet on the back. Bought it years ago off of E-bay and it's on the fridge now. :)

Robyn :D

Pft. I'd definately describe his technique as mickey mouse. :D

crbateman
03-04-2008, 07:05 AM
I thought this thread was really about Mickey Mouse doing Aikido.

If this attached picture shows, it's an actual foreign Disney stamp of Mickey and Donald doing Aikido that someone put a magnet on the back. Bought it years ago off of E-bay and it's on the fridge now. :)

Robyn :DRobyn, here (http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3129) is an article I wrote a while back about your stamp, in case anyone is interested or wants to find one. It is the only bona fide postage stamp to date that depicts Aikido.

Lyle Bogin
03-04-2008, 07:01 PM
It was O'sensei himself that began this so called process of dilution. He realized that only in a less directly martial form could his art reach the larger population. I don't think this is a weakness, rather I think it to be one of his more important and radical contributions to budo.

Those of us who are lucky enough to get the full old school treatment shoud stop whining about other people's "weaker" practice and forgive those who train with less vinegar. We should instead keep true to O'sensei's wish that aikido should be an art for everyone.

David Yap
03-09-2008, 09:49 PM
It was O'sensei himself that began this so called process of dilution. He realized that only in a less directly martial form could his art reach the larger population. I don't think this is a weakness, rather I think it to be one of his more important and radical contributions to budo.

I don't think he actually began the process, he might have had endorsed it. When he chided his deshi, "You are not doing my aikido.." - was his anger directed at the dilution or vigorousity of the technique?

Those of us who are lucky enough to get the full old school treatment shoud stop whining about other people's "weaker" practice and forgive those who train with less vinegar. We should instead keep true to O'sensei's wish that aikido should be an art for everyone.

The gist of my thread is whether we keeping true to his wish and at the same time keeping the art as intact as it could be. IMHO, we should be steadfast to the objective of Shu Ha Ri.

Just my thoughts

David Y