Daito Ryu's Aiki

[Please visit our sponsor:]

[DH]

Doesn't work? Anyone who understands it and is doing it right can stop very substantial aggression and power in its tracks, and toss em, or down them and hit like a Freakin truck with any part of their body.
I think the answer is to stop doing Aikido and learn to do Aiki...do, the way it was supposed to be done. Its holds tremendous promise in the hands of the right people.

[stan baker]

Aiki power is the way of the future

stan

[Aikibu]

Doesn't work? Anyone who understands it and is doing it right can stop very substantial aggression and power in its tracks, and toss em, or down them and hit like a Freakin truck with any part of their body.
I think the answer is to stop doing Aikido and learn to do Aiki...do, the way it was supposed to be done. Its holds tremendous promise in the hands of the right people.

This has been my experiance. The purpose of the Aiki Arts is to develop this kind of "power" Aikido uses it for a different "result" than Aiki-JuJitsu. I would prefer to see the exact opposite.... Practice Aikido as much as you can.... with all the effort you can muster...If you do this you... like some others here...may have a good chance at discovering and experiancing the "secret" to Aiki,,, which by the way... is hiding in plain sight....

The problem lies not with "doing Aikido" but in how one does "it"

As I have mentioned a dozen times If it appears that your Sensei does not understand this "secret" or cannot demonstrate it. Time to move on.

WIlliam Hazen

[stan baker]

William,

Which sensei are you refering to

stan

[Aikibu]

William,

Which sensei are you refering to

stan

Stan,

If you had as much experiance as I do then you would know whom.

William Hazen

Back on my ignore list you go....

[DH]

This has been my experiance. The purpose of the Aiki Arts is to develop this kind of "power" Aikido uses it for a different "result" than Aiki-JuJitsu.
Hmmm.. Actually I'd say that the aikido I have seen only uses part of the power of the aiki of Daito ryu. And that mainly to cast away or project. Daito ryu has distinct training to either *draw* people across their body lines or to draw them in-in ways I have not ever seen used in aikido. With the exception of Shioda. And he was trained by Kodo.

Practice Aikido as much as you can.... with all the effort you can muster...If you do this you... like some others here...may have a good chance at discovering and experiancing the "secret" to Aiki,,, which by the way... is hiding in plain sight....
WIlliam Hazen
Well I think we have pretty much seen the result of sixty years of training with all the effort you can muster. The Aikido seen today is the result of that. And most of the Aikido practiced today IMO...is broken, and desperately needs to be fixed.
I would be interested in seeing, or meeting, with anyone in Aikido who can model the power I have been discussing with any clarity and consistency under stress, and to do so with polish *outside* of their waza. In fact with no waza at all. Just to see if they had anything in their bodies.They should stand out like a beacon against all the budo wall paper out there.

Secret of aiki hidden in plain site?
Actually I don't agree that the secret of aiki is hidden in plain sight, and never did. Rather the *result* of training aiki has been shown in plain sight, and it was THAT which was withheld from most students; either through Intent, or through incompetence. In the end, most people have had to be introduced and shown just what to look for-in plain site- as they didn't have a clue what they were seeing.
Anyway, who cares, in the end it is by and large-absent today. The real task is not even in finding who has it. Who cares! It's finding who can and will take pity on all the students and actually teach it.:cool:

[Ketsan]

Really the effectiveness of "your" Aikido is down to the quality of of your centre.

Right now my centre is grumbling, my ki is weak. French toast is the answer!

:D

[stan baker]

William,

I have more experience in aikido then you do, you should read what

Dan said and stop wasting time, then you should beg to go see him.

stan

[Kevin Leavitt]

There must be a huge waiting list, if not, it sounds like there will be very soon!

[Aikibu]

There are folks here who will vouch for Dan Hardin's practice so I don't doubt his abilities.

His opinions however are like mine... Blunt with a taste of the Irish....

I am not fond of "hero" worship and Stan indirectly brings up a good point actually. If Dan is such a good teacher Where are the students?

Who out here on the West Coast has Dan taught? Why aren't there more Seminars, Exhibitions, and Videos?

I have been there and done that in spades brother and I have personally met a number of the posters on this board Watched them practice taken Ukemi from some of them

What good is Dan's "enlightenment" if he chooses only to share it with a "priviledged" few? That is not the Bodhisattva Way...

I say this with respect and the same questions can be asked of me. However I do not have folks like Stan running on the various Aikido Forums touting Dan as an Aiki-God and my experiance in Aikido can be replicated by hundreds and thousands of folks who choose to practice hard.

O'Sensei made Aikido availible to everyone... Some his students took it and and did fantastic things with it. That is the way it should be...I personally know 5 of Nishio Shihan's Senior Students who have the ablities Dan talks about. The "Hiding in Plain Sight" analogy was something Tanaka Shihan ( he's featured in Shoji Nishio's videos) told me years ago. I have experianced the kind of Aiki Dan talks about and you would be surprised what this fat old man can do...LOL I have seen this essence in Robert Nadeau and some other Senior Teachers of the old Hombu style. It's there right in front of you. Do you have what it takes to grasp it? And if you do... will you be corrupted by it... or will you follow O'Sensei's path and share it with the world???

So back at ya Dan and Stan....I think it's just wonderful the two of you understand Aiki but unless something changes soon (and you both know what I am talking about) It will mean nothing when you both turn to dust.

I have been or am a member of a number of "Elite Super Adventure Clubs" I have walked with giants. and the one thing I have noticed and understand from all the "Super Adventures" I have had???

They follow the Bodhisattva Way....That is the way of Aiki my friends...Everything else is just your hungry ghost.

William Hazen

[stan baker]

William,
I have trained with some of those guys on the west coast, their aikido is pretty good, they are just not on the level of what Dan is talking about, instead of making excuses go check it out for your self.

stan

[Aikibu]

William,
I have trained with some of those guys on the west coast, their aikido is pretty good, they are just not on the level of what Dan is talking about, instead of making excuses go check it out for your self.

stan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy...

William Hazen

[Kevin Leavitt]

Wow, aikido apparently does work in a fight! RLTW!

[Aikibu]

Wow, aikido apparently does work in a fight! RLTW!

ALL THE WAY SIR!!! :D

William Hazen

[Cady Goldfield]

Seminars? Videos? Exhibitions? Are these trappings required to "prove" that someone has skills worth learning? Why not do as Stan suggests? Makes sense to me.

And, why do you have to ask where his students are? Do you expect them to walk around with advertising sandwich boards?There are quite a few people -- some of whom post on AikiWeb and have rank in an established aikido system, and so who are qualified to make judgements on what they experienced -- who have met and trained with the man. Some of them have written on AikiWeb about it. In fact, I think there is a lengthy thread, or maybe even two threads, on just that, over in the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum. But each and every person who wrote about this set of skills, and who all agreed that it is definitely important, and definitely what aikido should be but overwhelmingly is not, was blown off and ignored, as though they had written nothing of consequence. The silence was deafening. I'm curious as to why that is.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Cady,

It's not the skills, its the messianic tones post most everyone has issues with.

[Robert Cowham]

On a visit to Boston last year I was able to train with Dan for a day and I'd like to say how much I enjoyed the experience. He was very open and welcoming, and I came away with lots of material for personal study. I look forward to future visits.

Thanks also to Cady (for the intro and the lift!).

[Cady Goldfield]

It's not the skills, its the messianic tones post most everyone has issues with.

I hear ya. No one likes feeling they're being preached at. But, sometimes people are just better able to communicate their passions and beliefs pleasantly in person, and amicably make their points on the mats or over beers, than in one-dimensional Internet forums. It's a tough medium.

C

P.S. Hi Robert. Still doing the holiday house-swapping? Coming back to New England again?

[Kevin Leavitt]

Yes it is a tough medium to communicate in. It has been my experiences that most people are much different than how you perceive them on the internet.

[Aikibu]

Seminars? Videos? Exhibitions? Are these trappings required to "prove" that someone has skills worth learning? Why not do as Stan suggests? Makes sense to me.

And, why do you have to ask where his students are? Do you expect them to walk around with advertising sandwich boards?There are quite a few people -- some of whom post on AikiWeb and have rank in an established aikido system, and so who are qualified to make judgements on what they experienced -- who have met and trained with the man. Some of them have written on AikiWeb about it. In fact, I think there is a lengthy thread, or maybe even two threads, on just that, over in the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum. But each and every person who wrote about this set of skills, and who all agreed that it is definitely important, and definitely what aikido should be but overwhelmingly is not, was blown off and ignored, as though they had written nothing of consequence. The silence was deafening. I'm curious as to why that is.

You completely mis-read my post... Let me clarify...

1. I do not for a second doubt Mr. Hardin's Waza
2. He is free to doubt mine...
3. His Waza is not the only one that has the kind of power he suggests Indeed I have experianced it several times myself.
4. A good practice is one where in order to keep it One must give it away aka the Bodhisattva Way. Hence the line about Students Seminars and videos...
5. A man like Dan who is this good should get out more. :)
6. In my experiance the two threads you mentioned are important and our Aikido already teaches these skills however since in Dan and Stan's Case both 1 and 2 apply so why bother?
7. I am not "worried" about the fact "Mainstream" Aikido does little to teach these skills since "Mainstream" Aikido is moving towards our Philosophy of Waza... Simply put Our Aikido MUST (not should) work against other Waza in order to be considered a Martial Art...
8.Dan has nothing to prove to me and all Stan is doing in my opinion is diluting Dan's credibility with his endless Fan Boy Adulation...

My Aikido Sensei's are some of the best Martial Artists I have ever experianced and my "experiance" goes back to 1967 when I was a boy...That being said the only thing that has been "lost" among most folk is the fact that the Martial Arts and Aikido are only as "effective" as to what you put into them...

I feel no need to tout the "Awsome Aiki Power" of some of my Sensei's... What I need to do is to learn from them.... understand the deeper meaning of thier Waza.... and then pass on what I have learned to the best of my limited abilities.

They can speak for themselves...and at the end of my life (as they have taught me). It is what I have done with Aikido that folks will remember me by... not so much what I said...Nishio Shihan's words would be meaningless without the history of his Aikido and Japan thought enough of his contributions to award him thier highest civilian honor before he passed away.

That is the kind of man whose Aikido I wish to emulate not just someone whose figured out how to use his own mojo. I know PLENTY of those folks.

Bowing down to you Cady...

William Hazen

[stan baker]

William,

I think your view is not quite correct, Nishio sensei did not have the type of aiki power that we are talking about. I think fanboy is alright if we are not so attached,I want to be proven wrong,so we can see more clearly.

stan

[Aikibu]

William,

I think your view is not quite correct, Nishio sensei did not have the type of aiki power that we are talking about. I think fanboy is alright if we are not so attached,I want to be proven wrong,so we can see more clearly.

stan

Thank you Stan. this post speaks for itself.

For further emphasis see item number #8 in my last post

William Hazen

[Ewan Wilson]

ALL THE WAY SIR!!! :D

William Hazen

why do you sign your name after posting? your posts have your name to the left anyway.

[stan baker]

William
The problem is that your more interested in being right like most people out there instead of realizing something more profound.

stan

[Aikibu]

William
The problem is that your more interested in being right like most people out there instead of realizing something more profound.

stan

Thanks for for sharing your profound thoughts Stan. :)

William Hazen

[Aikibu]

why do you sign your name after posting? your posts have your name to the left anyway.

Habit I guess.:)

William Hazen

[Dewey]

This thread is like a zombie....the only way it'll die is if you destroy the brain and/or sever the head....if not, it just keeps coming back!

You must kill the brain...if not, they'll keep coming back! The zombies...

Seriously, of course Aikido works in a fight, it all depends upon how you train.

That's all.

[Ecosamurai]

William
The problem is that your more interested in being right like most people out there instead of realizing something more profound.

stan

Yes because it can only be profund if he agrees with you Stan.... obviously.

Well, now that Jun has dumped this down in the troll pit I'd just like to say that perhaps you should consider that your bizarre hero worship of Dan that borders on being a fetish isn't really reflecting well on him, nevermind yourself.... that said, you're going back on my ignore list now, laters.

Mike

[stan baker]

Mike

It is not about hero worship it is about who has high level internal and
what that really means, if there is someone that can handle Dan send them, I am sure we would love to train with them.

stan

[MM]

Mike

It is not about hero worship it is about who has high level internal and
what that really means, if there is someone that can handle Dan send them, I am sure we would love to train with them.

stan

Oooh! Can I bring popcorn and a digital camcorder? Cause it's never valid unless it's on YouTube. :D Maybe we can have a seminar, because it's never valid unless the really good people are out doing seminars. :rolleyes: But, oh, wait! I forgot! (slaps head like the V-8 Commercials). They are already doing this stuff. :hypno:

(For those who have Emotopixelations Disease, what I wrote above is heavily dripping in sarcasm)

Mark

[DH]

Oooh! Can I bring popcorn and a digital camcorder? Cause it's never valid unless it's on YouTube. :D Maybe we can have a seminar, because it's never valid unless the really good people are out doing seminars. :rolleyes: But, oh, wait! I forgot! (slaps head like the V-8 Commercials). They are already doing this stuff. :hypno:

(For those who have Emotopixelations Disease, what I wrote above is heavily dripping in sarcasm)

Mark
Interestingly a camcorder hasn't been needed yet. I have a basic trust in the nature of most budo guys. While I think they are indeed a weird bunch; usually (not always) when you tune-em, they admit it. Of course it helps to have about ten people in the room watching. ;)
As for you tube and all the nonsense of demanding video? It serves no real value to help someone get it. Hands on, and at home training is the only way.
I think Williams comment about seminars is somewhat valid except that he doesn't acknowledge that I am doing so on a somewhat regular basis these days aren't I? And that-for free! I see no reason that I am to be compelled to some standard set by others, disrupting my own life for the -benefit- of others. I do what I can and I think I am making a small contribution as I am able.
These are interesting times in that folks are traveling, sometimes from me to Ark, or from Mike to me, and training with all three repeatedly to compare notes, Even considering that the material covered is usually just basics, they are getting hands on and feeling power, sensitivity and sometimes practical delivery from all of us and comparing notes on movement, things taught. That they are willing to take it home and really work things through says allot I think. No doubt some will settle for a method that suits them. Once folks move along and improve their observational skills will improve and so will their judgements about various guys and their method of teaching. Of course that will be augmented by who will do the actual work at home to progress.
Suffice to say the skills are there, and I would encourage folks-as I always have- to go meet and test everyone and do your own research. Its your life and your training. Don't rob yourself.

As for William's teachers and Mike Haft on the other thread already doing these things or knowing folks who do-you guys will find out in the end. I maintain it is rare, and few have any real skills. One thing is for sure. Anyone who has it who is in a public arena or some sort, should be known for it. They should stand-out instantly. They would be noted for it somehow in some venue or another outside of waza. Why? Its not natural and most (no, not all) will not confuse your power with natural strength and waza.
In arts like Aikido it should be all the more prevalent, as you would not be able to be thrown or locked unless you chose to allow it. You would most likely have to shut-off, and anyone would have a terribly difficult time handling you on any basis.

[Aikibu]

I think Williams comment about seminars is somewhat valid except that he doesn't acknowledge that I am doing so on a somewhat regular basis these days aren't I? And that-for free! I see no reason that I am to be compelled to some standard set by others, disrupting my own life for the -benefit- of others. I do what I can and I think I am making a small contribution as I am able.
These are interesting times in that folks are traveling, sometimes from me to Ark, or from Mike to me, and training with all three repeatedly to compare notes, Even considering that the material covered is usually just basics, they are getting hands on and feeling power, sensitivity and sometimes practical delivery from all of us and comparing notes on movement, things taught. That they are willing to take it home and really work things through says allot I think. No doubt some will settle for a method that suits them. Once folks move along and improve their observational skills will improve and so will their judgements about various guys and their method of teaching. Of course that will be augmented by who will do the actual work at home to progress.
Suffice to say the skills are there, and I would encourage folks-as I always have- to go meet and test everyone and do your own research. Its your life and your training. Don't rob yourself.

Gee you just described my life in Budo since about 1967 when a wee pup... I am glad we agree on something...

As for William's teachers and Mike Haft on the other thread already doing these things or knowing folks who do-you guys will find out in the end. I maintain it is rare, and few have any real skills. One thing is for sure. Anyone who has it who is in a public arena or some sort, should be known for it. They should stand-out instantly. They would be noted for it somehow in some venue or another outside of waza. Why? Its not natural and most (no, not all) will not confuse your power with natural strength and waza.
In arts like Aikido it should be all the more prevalent, as you would not be able to be thrown or locked unless you chose to allow it. You would most likely have to shut-off, and anyone would have a terribly difficult time handling you on any basis.

It's ok to question those you don't know Dan...Not knowing anything of your history... Not seeing any visual proof I am content enough to rely on the word of others here. I'll also assume you've been to Japan and China and experianced Aiki in all it's forms or visited the Shaolin Monks when they toured The East Coast or watched Bruce Lee in his prime expand on the Waza of no Waza.
I have been a lucky man Dan. Not everyone Dan wants to be known...Some are content to live humbly and focus on thier practice. If you somehow think you're one of the few with the gift of Aiki Well you had to learned it from somewhere and how famous were those folks??? LOL Get my point...If they choose NOT to be known for it.... well....Does it deminish the fact they know it? Heck as I mentioned the is an entire Monestary devoted to Aiki in China...They tour the country as a group. Does anyone in the West know thier individual names except a blessed few??? Reknown is not a part of thier culture...Only here in the West is reknown such a big deal...The same with Japan even if you don't personally believe it. It's funny how you seem to be the only one you know. LOL

Don't think so...Alas I am at an end point with this....unless of course I get the opportunity to practice and learn from you. Until then I've got a side bet going with some of the folks here on how many Fan Boy Posts Stan will impose upon us touting your God Like Skills and insulting everyone elses practice in the process....

I hope I am wrong but I bet at least a 100.

Bowing down to you Dan. :)

William Hazen

[akiy]

Hi folks,

Likewise, here. Can you all just please drop all of the personal stuff? It's unnecessary here and I'm frankly sick and tired of seeing it all.

-- Jun

[Aikibu]

Hi folks,

Likewise, here. Can you all just please drop all of the personal stuff? It's unnecessary here and I'm frankly sick and tired of seeing it all.

-- Jun

Sorry for my part in this Jun...I think I'll just bail for a while. Got too much to do.

William Hazen

[Mark Jakabcsin]

I hear ya. No one likes feeling they're being preached at. But, sometimes people are just better able to communicate their passions and beliefs pleasantly in person, and amicably make their points on the mats or over beers, than in one-dimensional Internet forums. It's a tough medium.


Girl, you speak the truth here. When I think of the times my passions got the better of me on this medium and how poorly I communicated I generally give an embarrassed little chuckle or half-snort of disapproval. Tough, tough medium but it has been educational.

The strange thing about the threads going on right now, is the negative and overly defensive tone has gotten worse not better. This is a surprise to me as I expected once folks started reporting back the tone would change for the better. Miss judged that one....perhaps I shouldn't buy that Enron stock I have been thinking about.

MJ

[Mike Sigman]

Then, too, there's this gem from Chas Clements on rma:

"A bunch of martial artists get together and a fight breaks out. Quelle surprise." ;)

[Cady Goldfield]

The problem is, Mike, that the fight here never actually breaks out. People just whine and borch and get in a snit, then go home and pout.

Cofightus interruptus.

I'd rather see a knock-down-drag-out where some of these jamokes get on the mats together, aiki the living snot out of each other, then go for beers. Resolution and peace at last, and maybe a rip-snortin' hangover for all. :D

[Mike Sigman]

The problem is, Mike, that the fight here never actually breaks out. People just whine and borch and get in a snit, then go home and pout. Some of that is inevitably going to happen, Cady. On all sides. Depends on whose Al gets Gored. ;)
I'd rather see a knock-down-drag-out where some of these jamokes get on the mats together, aiki the living snot out of each other, then go for beers. Resolution and peace at last, and maybe a rip-snortin' hangover for all. :D I wouldn't like to see that. I really think that what needs to be done needs to be done at the level of exertion of Tohei's ki-tests and then gradually expanded to logical extensions of the particular skills. As I've pointed out a number of times, it's possible to have *some* jin skills while being too muscular and ultimately that's also a dead-end.

I remember a guy who did judo and bragged about how good his muscular "push hands" was. He even got a lot of teaching gigs, based on his judo/wrestling approach to "Tai Chi". He wanted to meet up with me, but not enough to come visit, so he insisted that I come to New York City and try it out. Well, I wasn't going to fly to New York from Colorado, but I suggested that he meet up with my pal John Carlo, the ex-UFC guy. Of course, we all knew that John Carlo (who could bench about 450 pounds, IIRC) would slap him around.... in other words, John Carlo would "win" any engagement between the two, so my challenger backed away quickly. But think about it. Suppose John Carlo had met up with my challenger and whupped him good.... would that mean that John Carlo in fact had really great Tai Chi and "internal skills", just like the other guy was claiming? Of course not.

Getting together on the mat and seeing who can kick whose butt is probably not a great suggestion. People should get together, but it needs to be kept fairly clinical or the outcome of the discussion will never be accepted by everyone.

My opinion, FWIW.

Mike

[Cady Goldfield]

snip
The strange thing about the threads going on right now, is the negative and overly defensive tone has gotten worse not better. This is a surprise to me as I expected once folks started reporting back the tone would change for the better. Miss judged that one....perhaps I shouldn't buy that Enron stock I have been thinking about.

Not so surprising, when you realize that the defensive reactions and deafening silences are coming from the camps with the most to lose in confidence and self-defined status, were they to discover that in fact, these skills being discussed are what made Ueshiba's skills so remarkable --- and that they are largely lacking in their own aikido.

Safer to think you "have it all," and that anyone who says otherwise must be an outsider with unauthetic "outsider" skills that are not Ueshiba's and are not aikido.

[Cady Goldfield]

Getting together on the mat and seeing who can kick whose butt is probably not a great suggestion. People should get together, but it needs to be kept fairly clinical or the outcome of the discussion will never be accepted by everyone.


I was being facetious, Mike. Too many heavy, pouty threads make for unpleasant, tense reading. In the absence of the ability to upload softcore porn or "Opus" comic strips into this forum, I opted for light humor to break things up a little. :hypno: :crazy: :freaky:

:)

[DH]

Girl, you speak the truth here. When I think of the times my passions got the better of me on this medium and how poorly I communicated I generally give an embarrassed little chuckle or half-snort of disapproval. Tough, tough medium but it has been educational.

The strange thing about the threads going on right now, is the negative and overly defensive tone has gotten worse not better. This is a surprise to me as I expected once folks started reporting back the tone would change for the better. Miss judged that one....perhaps I shouldn't buy that Enron stock I have been thinking about.

MJ
Hi Mark
What do we measure the contention by?
1.The hundred or so who have gone out to meet Ark, Mike and I?
Or
2.A few frustrated posters that appear occasionally on a forum?

Heres another thought
3. How about the twenty or so I have met who have told me they were very pleased at all the discussion and were delighted that aikiweb let it come to light.
Since none of these people -including those training with Ark and Mike-seem to be backing off, rather their numbers are growing, at what point will we arrive in the near future with so many saying (like Ellis has in past) "Aiki web was where all the interesting discussions were at."

In the fullness of time I believe many others will echo Ellis's comment and will thank Jun for his generosity and tolerance. Hell they already have.

I agree with the idea of "passion and this being a tough medium." it is very diffcult to breakthrough with this idea of training. But I can't but help agree as I look at the amount of hits and thread counts, as well as the aforementioned people spending time and money to travel that it has indeed been looked upon as " educational."
I guess I am more optimistic now-I wasn't before. Most who have felt it, want it for themselves.I think a few are actually going to attain it, and they will teach others.
It should NOT go unoticed that all..dare I repeat...ALL have come back with reports of the teaching being very open, a positve experience, that moved folks forward and laid out things in simple terms and walking away with some beneficial training tools.
There was NO contention. I think its been a very positve step.

[Ketsan]

Seriously, of course Aikido works in a fight, it all depends upon how you train.

That's all.

I think it's slightly more than that. Good training produces good technique but techniques are just tools and frankly if my Sensei handed me the best hammer and chisel ever made it wouldn't automatically make me the next Michelangelo.
I think you need an experience base and with Aikido I think the only real way to get that experience base is to go and get mugged and assaulted a lot.
I'm sure Kevin can back me up when I say there's a difference between a soldier who is highly trained and a soldier who is highly trained AND has combat experience.
History is repleat with highly trained but green armies, often with superior technology, getting their ass handed to them by bearly trained, poorly equipped, but highly experienced armies. If that makes sence. Isandlwana stands out in my mind as the perfect example of this.
As good as we make our training, it is still training. Even if we take a training exercise like sparring, make it full contact and hand out prizes for winning it, we're stil not providing the student with anything like real world experience.
Like it or not despite being highly trained most of us are green as can be and the people we're training to deal with are probably quite used to violence and have tons of real world experience.

Also I think that the most important self defence skills are just the kind of things you just can't teach, or at least can't fully teach. Can you teach someone to be creative and to adapt? Can you teach grit and aggression?
Again I'll use an example from the military: If we want a special forces soldier we have to go and look for them in the regular army, you can't just grab anyone and train the kind of qualities into them that the special forces want.

So maybe the important question isn't "Does Aikido work?" or even "Does my Aikido work?" so much as "Do I and my Aikido work?"

[stan baker]

William.

If I meet someone good I give them credit , Dan is not the only one,but he is the only one that teaches for free,

stan

[Kevin Leavitt]

Sure combat does grant us a certain amount of wisdom that can only be garnered in that environment, and that experience is invaluable.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that you cannot approximate it "good training"...to a degree that allows for effective simulation of the conditions that you incur in combat.

Notice I used the word Wisdom in the first sentence....in Knowledge Management circles you have Information, Knowledge, and Wisdom. Wisdom represents a synthesis of Information, and Knowledge that is pretty much gained through real life experiences. It is hard to gain that wisdom in any other way really.

You CAN retain Wisdom institutionally to a degree. That is, we can learn or archive wisdom in the institution through those that have "been there,done that". It is possible to take the "lessons learned" and transfer that knowledge to others. Note I said Knowledge, not wisdom.

I think that Martially, we can learned a great deal from the experiences of others through various training regimes and methodologies.

The key to it is to as Brian Dewey wrote, "It all depends on how you train".

Synthesis or Wisdom occurs somewhere down the line when you strike out on your own and put your skills to test in some fashion.

A great deal of wisdom has been learned in the UFC type venues in the last few years. It has changed much about how we view martial arts and training.

Same with Police Officers and Soldiers that take experience various situations on the street.

As well as civilians that find themselves in various situations.

I can remember my first "real fight" many, many years ago....Years before I ever trained in martial arts. I took home the lesson that "there really was no such thing as a fair fight!"

That in itself is Wisdom! Learning intrinsically without the help of formalized martial arts training!

Wisdom also teaches you things like, "Don't come to a knife fight empty handed, come with a gun or don't come at all!".

Wisdom also teaches you things like Matt Larsen like to say "The winner of a hand to hand encounter is the guy whose buddy shows up first with a gun!".

Anyway, Fights are tricky beast! The few that I have been in, I am not sure how much technically my training really did for me, or in the future how much it really will help.

Wisdom kinda works that way. You learn that luck plays a big part, The guy who has the information first (the jump), and who has the most buddies, and/or the better weapons, and of course Size matters!

Budo and martial training matters too, of course. Not so much maybe in the technical skills you gain, but in the esoteric stuff I think, more so. Dammit, I gotta say it again...Musashi!

Not saying that technical skills don't matter, they do...given all else equal....and that may count for alot!

Anyway, back to the main point of the subject...Wisdom.

It seems to me to be illogical to study any empty handed art for any prolonged period of time simply to gain Wisdom to win a fight based purely on technical skills. I kinda covered it in the few "axioms" of offered above. Empty handed arts simply are inefficient in teaching the range of things that you might need in a fight, and again if the guy gets the jump and the monkey is on your back...well it just may not be your day!

So why bother studying this stuff?

Because there is much wisdom to be gained in the study of Budo type arts that can help you.

We have another thread hot right now on "Budo Prepares you to Die". Stuff like that thread is why it is important. The wisdom gained to help you when it is your day, and also when it is not your day!

[Kevin Leavitt]

On "green armies":

it is not so much the issue of "poor training of the soldiers", that is the technical training or martial training of them that causes them to not be effective.

It is the institution that fails the soldier, not the fact that they are "green". Sure there are many cases in history when "poorly trained" armies have been defeated.

However most of the time, it is the institutional knowledge/wisdom of the army that fails...also known as Organizational Leadership.

A seasoned army with poor leadership will almost always lose to a poor army with good leadership.

I think Sun Tzu covers some of this in his book right? Know yourself and know your enemy.....

Anyway, how does this relate to Aikido and Fighting.

I think it is possible to train people outside of the experience of fighting and approximate the conditions through appropriate methodology without them actually having to be in a fight.

What is important is the methodology and the institutional
experience/wisdom of the organization, AND that they can effectively transmit that information/knowledge to the person.

So, you can employ a "green army" in combat for the first time, and have them do remarkably well, IF they have been trained properlly AND they have Proper Leadership.

It is not forgetting the lessoned learned in the past.

Our problem many times in Martial Arts is that our various arts, over time, forget the lessons learned, and we simply end of doing "Dead Kata".

Know yourself and Know your enemy!

To thine ownself be true!

[Mark Jakabcsin]

snip

Not so surprising, when you realize that the defensive reactions and deafening silences are coming from the camps with the most to lose in confidence and self-defined status, were they to discover that in fact, these skills being discussed are what made Ueshiba's skills so remarkable --- and that they are largely lacking in their own aikido.

Safer to think you "have it all," and that anyone who says otherwise must be an outsider with unauthetic "outsider" skills that are not Ueshiba's and are not aikido.

Cady,
It is surprising to me, if not to you. I understand what you are saying I just do not have a frame of personal reference for it. Frankly the more I have drank from the fountain, especially in the last two years, the more the fountain has become a fire hose. The potential seems to grow exponentially as compared to what I learn. So little time and so many possibilities. I guess I can see how that would intimidate some, but for me it is exciting.

Take care,

Mark J.

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Hi Mark
What do we measure the contention by?
1.The hundred or so who have gone out to meet Ark, Mike and I?
Or
2.A few frustrated posters that appear occasionally on a forum?


I hear ya, Dan but these last few threads have still been a bit of a surprise to me. You know I've been on the forums for a fair number of years and I predicted those that didn't get the first hand experience would have had the sense to quiet down until they did. Silly me.


Heres another thought
3. How about the twenty or so I have met who have told me they were very pleased at all the discussion and were delighted that aikiweb let it come to light.
Since none of these people -including those training with Ark and Mike-seem to be backing off, rather their numbers are growing, at what point will we arrive in the near future with so many saying (like Ellis has in past) "Aiki web was where all the interesting discussions were at."


Oh please do not get me wrong, I have been generally happy with the discussions, once the.......(how to put this nicely)..........unnecessary stuff has been scrapped away. Over the years, having been a part of the unnecessary stuff many times myself I do my best to be tolerant. (Before anyone feels the need to flame me on that comment it is not directed at anyone specifically at this time…..however if that changes I will let you know!) Honestly I have hopes that the discussion will continue for a long time to come and there will be many more posts to provoke thought, discussion and heated debate. Your recent posts on E-budo have been great, more, more, more. :)

Take care,

MJ

[Aikibu]

The problem is, Mike, that the fight here never actually breaks out. People just whine and borch and get in a snit, then go home and pout.

Cofightus interruptus.

I'd rather see a knock-down-drag-out where some of these jamokes get on the mats together, aiki the living snot out of each other, then go for beers. Resolution and peace at last, and maybe a rip-snortin' hangover for all. :D

Where I come from we call it putting your money where your mouth is. I have had the pleasure of meeting several posters here who have come to our little neck of the woods to check out our Aikido.I gone to a few seminars myself and met allot of folks from AikiWeb. So in my experiance folks do check you out. I have family in Boston and have no qualms about paying Dan a visit while I am there and learning from him.

The thing that bugs me about the 'internets" is the tone of Argumentum Ad Authoritum. Where folks automatically posture as experts on a givin topic Not that anyone here has done that.:rolleyes:

Which is also silly considering some folks here have never been in a fight! LOL

As was just mentioned in the Combatives Thread one has to love Cognative Dissonance if one wants to understand "the internets"

Me being the trusting guy I am will take you at your word Until the Big Amigo upstairs gives me the blessed opportunity to experiance if the walk... matches the talk....and folks.... I have no fear of that being as good for the goose... as it is for the gander. :D

We have something we call rule 62 and I try to live by it.

"Don't take yourself to darn seriously." :)

Peace Out Brothers & Sisters

William Hazen

PS Hopefully folks know that I have the greatest respect for all and that means everyone no exceptions.

[Jim Sorrentino]

Cady,I'd rather see a knock-down-drag-out where some of these jamokes get on the mats together, aiki the living snot out of each other, then go for beers. Resolution and peace at last, and maybe a rip-snortin' hangover for all. :DYou may recall that I invited Dan to do something like that a while back, but he declined. ;)

How are you doing with the jo trick? :)

Jim

[Howard Popkin]

Since this thread is labeled "Daitoryu Aiki" I thought I would take this time to give a completely shamless bump.

Okamoto Sensei will be in the US:
NY April 19,20
Florida - April 22,23
NC April 26,27

Please contact me for details.

Thanks !

Howard Popkin

[DH]

Jim
I considered meeting you a waste of time for me then, and I still do. However, I am glad *for your students* and applaud the fact that you have invited others to come and take the time to show you the beginning basic steps of aiki-do...as it was supposed to be done. Good luck in your training.

[Mike Sigman]

I considered meeting you a waste of time for me then, and I still do. However, I am glad *for your students* and applaud the fact that you have invited others to come and take the time to show you the beginning basic steps of aiki-do...as it was supposed to be done. Good luck in your training.I tend to agree with Tohei's approach (and others, although they're not as explicit about an "approach", but they separate ki training from Aikido, too) that the ki/kokyu skills can and should be worked separately from the waza and other technical aspects of full-blown Aikido.

Now although I technically and officially studied Aikido somewhere between 7 and 8 years, I consider that I don't really know proper Aikido in any complete sense. What I know is a moderate amount about some of the ki/kokyu training. What I'm getting at is that in my perspective no one in these discussions is a full-blown expert in Aikido. Maybe some people are ahead of others in certain aspects, but that's the way it happens. What's bothersome is if anyone starts pretending that they are at some advanced level in Aikido where they can point to someone from lofty heights and say "beginner". It's a little irritating, frankly.

I'd suggest that everyone try to keep the conversations open and candid and that people clinically recognize that this is a multi-faceted corpus of knowledge which at any one time, someone will know more about some things than others, but no one is clearly more of an expert in Aikido than anyone else.

Personally, I'm trying to keep the playing field pretty level. While jin/kokyu basics are important, I'm trying to be sure that fairly accurate information about how the body works, the breathing exercises, and other aspects are getting out there offline at a level that goes beyond some of the other approaches to training that I'm hearing about. And admittedly I'm selective about who I'll show it with, but some of that selectivity has to do with me wanting to be sure that no one is really out ahead of anyone else. I've seen too many times, in my experience, what happens when the game of "I know more than you" starts getting played. It benefits no one.

My opinion.

Mike Sigman

[Mike Sigman]

In a true example of "Non-Aikido Martial Arts", let me offer the below-styled example of an offer to debate on the QiJin forum. Based on a (in my opinion) rather supercilious post on E-Budo by Nathan Scott, I have offered Mr. Scott a chance to defend his comments made in a post on E-Budo on a forum-sector of QiJin. If Dan or someone who appears, in my estimation, to be fairly conversant in the skills of ki/kokyu or who represents an reasonable sector of the Daito-ryu community wants to be involved, please let me know and I'll be glad to offer that limited access. Although the debate is not purely Aikido, in the sense that it involves many of the core principles of Aikido (and many/most Asian arts in general, if someone really knows the subject), it's germane to both Aikido and Daito-Ryu Aiki-jujutsu.

Posted on QiJin in the Off-Topic forum:

There is an interesting post on E-Budo which, IMO, reflects the common understanding of a number of well-ranked "instructors" in various arts, including Daito-Ryu (but not limited to that art). It's interesting to read the fairly direct put-downs (even though they're supposed to be somewhat oblique, everyone knows that Mr. Scott is referring to Dan Harden) indicating that if someone is not well-accredited in an art they can't understand the art. The post in question is at the URL:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost...0&postcount=12

The interesting point is the indication of Mr. Scott's knowledge, in and of itself, about the raw core point involving kokyu/jin power, which quite obviously Dan Harden has referred to for some time.

My interest is in seeing the repeated assertion/contests of power and position within the current martial-arts hierarchies when challenged by an outsider (in this case, Mr. Harden) about what is essential to general Asian arts.

Anyway, it's worth reading and discussing. To be fair, I have extended an offer for Mr. Scott to engage in the debate, if he cares to, although in my personal opinion I have seen little to indicate that Mr. Scott has any real idea about the very basics which are being discussed beneath his nose. But I could be wrong. That's what debate, etc., is for, though.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Regards,

Mike Sigman
mikesigman@earthlink.net

[Aikibu]

My chosen practice for last night's class...

Kokyu "Power" Basics...

By the way Mr. Sigman I have met and practiced with Sensei Scott and He and one of his students came to one of our beginners classes. He 's a good Hombre. :)

William Hazen

[Mike Sigman]

My chosen practice for last night's class...
Kokyu "Power" Basics...
You should start a separate thread that outlines your general approach to this topic, Bill. ;)

Best.

Mike

[Blake Holtzen]

Hmm, maybe this thread lost focus ? Daito Ryu's Aiki ?

Anyway, let me throw out this thought. I am a late comer to the game and I just finished reading Stanely Pranin's wonderful text, "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters." Here are my thoughts:

1) It seems that only several of Sokaku's students really "got it" as far as aiki (Sagawa, Horikawa, and maybe Hisa)

2) Most seemed obsessed with techniques. Lots of techniques. Like Eight levels of various numbered techniques. So...many...

3) I found no mention of any extra "body training". So, me wonders, either those that "had it" got it through their waza or they didn't want to mention it.

Therefore, I am curious, did Sokaku have a systematic way of training aiki body skills or was it taught through waza?

If this post is too far off topic, please ignore me...

-Blake

[Ron Tisdale]

It's pretty far behind in terms of general understanding...

My suggestion is to read the posts in Non-Aikido Martial Traditions by Dan Harden and others. Sagawa apparently prized the solo body work highly. In English you can find the work of his top student on his time with Sagawa. In Japanese, his text on "Clear Power" is supposed to be excellent. You might also go by e-budo and check out the archive in the aiki-jujutsu section.

Best,
Ron

[Aikibu]

You should start a separate thread that outlines your general approach to this topic, Bill. ;)

Best.

Mike

Someday soon perhaps...Sadly I am not as articulate as some here on the subject and since I am representing the teachings passed down to me by some very esteemable men in Soto Zen, Tai Chi, Yoga, and Aikido I will have to survey them all to get a good idea on how to explain the teachings and my personal training regimen.

Aiki is like an vain of gold. No matter how much you uncover there is an endless amount of riches waiting to be discovered. :)

Namaste Mike :)

William Hazen

[Timothy WK]

I just finished reading Stanely Pranin's wonderful text, "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters." ... I found no mention of any extra "body training". So, me wonders, either those that "had it" got it through their waza or they didn't want to mention it.

Therefore, I am curious, did Sokaku have a systematic way of training aiki body skills or was it taught through waza?

I am confident that Sokaku taught breathing techniques (at least), which is a type of "body training". Hakuho-ryu contains a number of breathing exercises, but I'm not sure if Okabayshi-sensei learned these from Hisa or from Tokimune (or both).

[Blake Holtzen]

It's pretty far behind in terms of general understanding...

My suggestion is to read the posts in Non-Aikido Martial Traditions by Dan Harden and others. Sagawa apparently prized the solo body work highly. In English you can find the work of his top student on his time with Sagawa. In Japanese, his text on "Clear Power" is supposed to be excellent. You might also go by e-budo and check out the archive in the aiki-jujutsu section.

Best,
Ron

Thanks for the suggestions Mr Tisdale. However, my point was that (besides Sagawa) why is there no written info confirming a systematic training method for aiki? Every reference to it is either in the context of waza,waza,waza or some veiled cryptic tidbit like "push when pulled" and other nonsense.

Appartently no-one would even know about this body training had it not been for Dan Harden telling people. (and Rob and Mike, but I am talking the context of daito ryu/aikido.

So if I really am soo far behind in general understanding, then where is all the people that know about this and why arn't more training it??

-Blake

[DH]

Daito ryu has the same issues as many Koryu. Finding those who get it, is a case by case basis. Rank and style are no indicators of skill. Further DR is not subject to "style" differences in the same way Aikido is- where they pretty much still all look alike. In DR they are very distinct in syllabus and level of aiki. And just saying that. Stating it openly, will create denial and trouble.
All-in-all you have about as much chance of getting a DR guy to discuss details regardless of what he knows, as you would of any other Koryu adept openly discussing their art. Ain't gonna happen. Go ask a student of KSR-if you can find one- how the spear is trained in their art? You'll get used to the sound of crickets real fast.

To place it in context I'll tell you a true story in the koryu community.
There was a koryu guy who reached a high level in an art. He was a personal friend of the head guy and trained for twenty plus years. He started openly teaching and morphing waza without permission. They booted him. A few years later, when someone asked the head guy about this man, his former friend, he replied. "Who? I don't know anyone by that name."
So, good luck. While the art can demonstrate tremendous power, I see no chance of getting information openly. Further finding anyone who has taken DR internals and worked it in modern fighting formats such as Judo, wrestling and MMA, is rarer still, almost unique. Upon questioning the typical response is going to be "If you want to know the art-go study."
I've no problem with that. It appears there is little merit in discussing details of things on the net anyway.

As for breath techniques and or solo waza. Yes they exist, and you can recite major honcho's who have extensive solo regimens. They are just not openly discussed. And just about all the big guns discuss breathing techniques or "breath-power." It is known term in the art. And there are specific exercises to connect the body through breathing with aiki-in-yo- ho. That said, at a point you can have the connections and the breath training is not critical in the same way. Hence, Sagawa's probable comment.
Anyway, good luck in your attempts to get Koryu people to yak with you about their stuff. And poking fun at folks who really don't get it, yet are convinced they do is sad as it really isn't their fault. On the other hand, some truly do know things but will not talk about openly anyway.

E-budo thread
Curiously, that thread generated an unprecedented hit count and a readership of dozens of people in DR from all branches, from all over the world.. More interesting were the private correspondence! Those telling interesting stories and expressing frustrations, agreements, some knowing they were not being taught “the real deal” many questions and requests for meeting and a general dismay at the closed attitude prevalent in the art. En example would be I was present when one Aikido teacher from N.Y., amazed at the power in DR, asked a Japanese DR shihan "Why don't you teach more and let people know this stuff?" His reply was (paraphrased) "They don't need to know. I don't care if they know. If they want to learn-they come train.
Cricketts………

[DH]

I wanted to add that for some...watching another Daito ryu demonstration would be about as much fun as watching paint dry. Still others who have seen it, and felt it, would rather stay with Aikido. One fellow said "I dunno, felt aikido to me. Where's the power." And said as much to the teacher.
So, again, DR is all over the map and if you are looking for true power-just like in any other art-there is no guarantee.
The beauty, the greatness of Daito ryu aiki is not in the one-step kata training that is seen. Rather it's in it's body method. Formless, and techniqueless

[gdandscompserv]

Rather it's in it's body method. Formless, and techniqueless
And might I dare add; wordless...cricketts...

[Blake Holtzen]

I wanted to add that for some...watching another Daito ryu demonstration would be about as much fun as watching paint dry. Still others who have seen it, and felt it, would rather stay with Aikido. One fellow said "I dunno, felt aikido to me. Where's the power." And said as much to the teacher.
So, again, DR is all over the map and if you are looking for true power-just like in any other art-there is no guarantee.
The beauty, the greatness of Daito ryu aiki is not in the one-step kata training that is seen. Rather it's in it's body method. Formless, and techniqueless

Cool. So could I come train with you? I am eager to see and learn this in person. One can only learn so much from reading everyone's posts and Sigman's videos...

-Blake

[DH]

Cool. So could I come train with you? I am eager to see and learn this in person. One can only learn so much from reading everyone's posts and Sigman's videos...

-Blake

Blake
I got your emails. Let me talk to my guys and see what I can put together.

[Ron Tisdale]

Thanks for the suggestions Mr Tisdale. However, my point was that (besides Sagawa) why is there no written info confirming a systematic training method for aiki?
I think one reason is because if you have a very valuable pearl, and you are walking in a poor neighborhood, the wise man hides the pearl under his shirt, out of sight.

I also think that if you take the time to look at arts throughout asia that specialize in like skills, you will find they all have extensive solo training. Even in aikido, you have people using suburito to train the skills in question.

Every reference to it is either in the context of waza,waza,waza or some veiled cryptic tidbit like "push when pulled" and other nonsense.

A) perhaps you should at least consider the idea that it is not "non-sense"
B) See my statement above...

Appartently no-one would even know about this body training had it not been for Dan Harden telling people. (and Rob and Mike, but I am talking the context of daito ryu/aikido.

I disagree...my own teacher in aikido has stressed "know your body", and I believe that he refers to solo work when he says that. One method for this is yoga...

So if I really am soo far behind in general understanding, then where is all the people that know about this and why arn't more training it??

People are where they are...and they do what they do. Take care of yourself, first. Then worry about others...

Best,
Ron (oh, please call me Ron, Mr Tisdale is my dad, and Mr. T is an actor) ;)