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Shizentota
02-12-2008, 07:33 AM
It seem that many people donīt know difference between this two techniques, I have review some aikido books and for me isn't still clear.

If anybody can tell me, how to perform well this technique I will be grateful.

Thanks

Ron Tisdale
02-12-2008, 08:27 AM
This is a very good question, but I doubt many people will be able to give you a good answer over the internet. I suggest asking your instructor, then carefully note his answer. Take those notes, and check that understanding with someone who is known for having good access to the physical skills of jin / aiki / kokyu. That should get you on the correct path.

Best,
Ron

John Matsushima
02-12-2008, 08:46 AM
I would think that the main difference is that sumi otoshi utilizes the forearm in an outward and down circular motion that results in the uke doing a breakfall. Also, as the name implies, sumi otoshi is applied in diagonal angles relative to the uke's direction.
Kokyu nage leaves little to be described technically, but is executed by solely relying on musubi, blending, timing and distance. A kokyu nage done from the stance you described would be make use of the flow of uke's energy forward, I believe, instead of a diagonal direction.

Shizentota
02-12-2008, 09:02 AM
Instead of applying ki to Uke's center, you applies ki to the arm looking for a corner direction, that's what you mean?
:confused:

John Matsushima
02-12-2008, 09:30 AM
I'm afraid I'm not sure how to describe it in those terms, but let me suggest that you practice sumi otoshi and kokyu nage each in different ways. For example, practice your ushiro ryote tori kokyu nage and yokomen uchi sumi otoshi; both are very different in their application. Find what makes each one work, then come back to this question, and I think you will see it more clearly.

xuzen
02-12-2008, 09:17 PM
It seem that many people donīt know difference between this two techniques, I have review some aikido books and for me isn't still clear.

If anybody can tell me, how to perform well this technique I will be grateful.

Thanks

My version of these two are as such:

Kokyu-nage - circular and gradual. (NB: Kokyu -nage is a very generic term, it usually means anything that is not of the official technical syllabus but yet able to get uke's ass on the floor)

Sumi-otoshi - circular and a with sudden sharp change in direction.

Some images of sumi-otoshi from the internet:
Kodokan version (notice it starts from grappling range)
http://judoinfo.com/sumi.gif

Shodokan version (notice it starts at arms-length)
http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/images/sumi.gif

Boon.

Joe Bowen
02-13-2008, 02:00 AM
(NB: Kokyu -nage is a very generic term, it usually means anything that is not of the official technical syllabus but yet able to get uke's ass on the floor)
Boon.

I like that explanation....:)

xuzen
02-16-2008, 12:19 AM
I would like to comment on the two gif pics I link up earlier...

Pls note that the pics are shown in kihon manner, i.e., the uke are totally compliant and going with the flow to demonstate the technique per se.

In randori/shiai/deathmatch nage have to create kuzushi, in the case of judo.. by pulling, pushing grip fighting. I think shodokan people will rely more on tai-sabaki, timing and seizing the opportunity.

Boon.