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abarnhar
12-20-2001, 10:29 AM
At the dojo last night, I paired up with an individual, whom I have never worked with before. After the standard instruction by our Sensei, we proceeded to begin practice. Throughout practice, he would offer advice that was contrary to what Sensei had just instructed. He also threw blows at me when I was the uke, and make contact with them.

This behavior was extremely distracting to my practice, and very disturbing. Would it be appropriate for me to approach my Sensei with this complaint, or should I accept the distractions and try to work through the practice?

Thanks!

shihonage
12-20-2001, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by abarnhar

This behavior was extremely distracting to my practice, and very disturbing. Would it be appropriate for me to approach my Sensei with this complaint, or should I accept the distractions and try to work through the practice?


Stuff happens. Adapt.
(Edited to maintain the G-rating).

davoravo
12-20-2001, 11:05 AM
I remember the first time I trained at a dojo where it was common practice to hit uke; upset me at first but it sure woke me up! See the positive that you can take out of this experience and use it. He may have thought you weren't maintaining your awareness.

As for the advice: your partner may have judged your level (incorrectly?) and tried to offer help that was more specific to you.

On the other hand you are under no obligation to listen to any instruction except from your sensei - a lot of mid kyu grades chatter endless bad advice and it's better to ignore it and silence them with a good nikkyo.

abarnhar
12-20-2001, 01:12 PM
David,
Thanks for your post. It answered a lot of the issue for me.

Shihonage,
Your post was neither appropriate or helpful. Maybe you can choose your words in a more intellegent style next time.

PeterR
12-20-2001, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by abarnhar
Shihonage,
Your post was neither appropriate or helpful. Maybe you can choose your words in a more intellegent style next time.
Its the difference between a cartoon and an oil painting. An oil painting uses a lot of paint to get an idea across the cartoon does the same with a minimal number of lines. A skill by no means trivial.

Shihonage is the cartoon of version of some good advice. Advice which David also touched on in his first paragraph.

We train with different partners just so we learn to adapt. You have a partner that makes your training uncomfortable - well don't cry about it - use it, learn from it. This isn't ballroom dancing.

guest1234
12-20-2001, 03:58 PM
I see my role as uke as time to a)improve my sensitivity to my partner/work on awareness/timing, and B) (MOST IMPORTANT) give my partner what he needs to fill his role as nage. So if I had a partner who was using what seemed to be excessive or overly aggressive atemi, I'd ask why. Do I need to do something different? I'd also appreciate it if I got hit, in my first dojo the first thing you said if hit was 'thank you' for the pointing out of flaws in your ukemi (sensitivity and timing keeps your face out of nage's reach).

Some uke's (not to be sexist, but the bigger ones, so often big guys---but I've seen women do it too) think their role is to charge full steam into nage, ignoring good maai and abandoning all responsibility for self protection. They tend to run into the hand I put up to keep their 200 pounds from careening into my 100 pounds. Most learn by the third time they fall down, some never do. So if you have significant mass, you might want to look at your vector in these situations.

Lastly, he could just be a jerk, or a nice guy having a bad day. I detest those who insist on teaching what they don't know, and that may be a clue that his aggression was just more of that ego coming through. In that case, your sensei sees it, he will either correct it or not as he sees fit. Consider the ego driven students as a chance to practice working with the socially impaired, or avoid them as you see fit. They have control over them acting like a jerk, you have control over how that affects you.

mj
12-20-2001, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by abarnhar
... he would offer advice that was contrary to what Sensei had just instructed. He also threw blows at me when I was the uke, and make contact with them.

This behavior was extremely distracting to my practice, and very disturbing. Would it be appropriate for me to approach my Sensei with this complaint, or should I accept the distractions and try to work through the practice?

Thanks!

I would say practice with this individual at every opportunity!

I understand you have been, in some way, offended by some of the answers here :mad:

Don't worry about it ;)
This person may possibly be the best partner you could have, for a long time.

Peter Goldsbury
12-21-2001, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by abarnhar
At the dojo last night, I paired up with an individual, whom I have never worked with before. After the standard instruction by our Sensei, we proceeded to begin practice. Throughout practice, he would offer advice that was contrary to what Sensei had just instructed. He also threw blows at me when I was the uke, and make contact with them.

This behavior was extremely distracting to my practice, and very disturbing. Would it be appropriate for me to approach my Sensei with this complaint, or should I accept the distractions and try to work through the practice?

Thanks!

I think all the advice you have received from other posts is very sound. But I am curious. Did you work with the same partner for the entire practice?

Whenever I instruct anywhere, I ALWAYS require a change of partners with each change of technique, sometimes during the same technique. I usually reckon on about 15 minutes per technique for a general class, especially if I am a visiting instructor, so someone would practise with around six different partners during a 90-minute training session. Sometimes, I intervene and decide myself who should train with whom for a particular technique.

I have always done this and have found by experience that it is much better than training with the same partner for a 90-minute class.

As I said, I am curious. Comments? Opinions?

Best wishes to all for 2002!

abarnhar
12-21-2001, 10:25 AM
We typically have hour long practices, and almost never switch partners. We also work on one technique the entire time.

PeterR
12-21-2001, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by abarnhar
We typically have hour long practices, and almost never switch partners. We also work on one technique the entire time.
Personally I would talk to the sensei about that rather than the individual. If you change partners every 10 minutes - no problem.

abarnhar
12-21-2001, 10:51 AM
I'll see what he thinks about it.

Thanks for the input!

Peter Goldsbury
12-21-2001, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by abarnhar
We typically have hour long practices, and almost never switch partners. We also work on one technique the entire time.

Wow. I don't think I have practised in this way in my entire aikido career.

Of course, it depends on numbers in a class and the relative levels of technical ability, but I have found it is not good for dojo morale to have people train with the same partners for the entire practice, even less good doing the same technique as well. Since the technique should work, no matter who is your partner, the best way to do this, in my opinion, is to train with the entire dojo population. This also tends to discourage the bad habits of training excessively with preferred partners, or avoiding non-preferred, partners.

We sometimes have workshop-style training in a group of up to six persons, where each member of the group shows a particular technique, or variation of the main technique. But we always change partners with each change of technique.

Best Regards,

Jon Hicks
01-09-2002, 06:34 PM
I also believe you should train with a different partner with each technique. Everyone`s Ki is different. It`s a great way to learn how people use their energy.
For example; a small older woman projects ki quite differently than a huge muscle man. It can really help in your understanding of Aikido.
As far as the partner who insists on teaching you. I just politely ask "are you the teacher"? I only do this if I don`t feel like being patient with that person. I consider it a form of Irimi :) Most of the time I just switch partners.

Take care

[Censored]
01-09-2002, 06:41 PM
As far as the partner who insists on teaching you. I just politely ask "are you the teacher"? I only do this if I don`t feel like being patient with that person. I consider it a form of Irimi :) Most of the time I just switch partners.

Speaking of patience, I have not yet seen the thread where the other partner complains "they always ignore my advice."

I wonder why. :)

guest1234
01-09-2002, 09:48 PM
Because those that just absolutely have to 'teach' in order to hear their own voice, don't really care what their partner is doing, nor are they any more likely to notice they are being ignored than they are to notice their advice is not wanted, or that they are contradicting the sensei. They don't CARE about their partner, they care about their own ego. And an ego that size can't conceive of someone not wanting/following their 'teaching'.

[Censored]
01-10-2002, 11:41 AM
Because those that just absolutely have to 'teach' in order to hear their own voice, don't really care what their partner is doing, nor are they any more likely to notice they are being ignored than they are to notice their advice is not wanted, or that they are contradicting the sensei. They don't CARE about their partner, they care about their own ego. And an ego that size can't conceive of someone not wanting/following their 'teaching'.

Ouch. :D

Here is a fun experiment to try. Take the greenest "student" in your school, slap a skirt on them, and have them teach an intro class to some new prospects. The normal "teacher" will put on a white belt and join the class as a "student".

Observe the normal teacher making valuable suggestions to their partners, and observe the generally resentful and unappreciative responses.

ego.]

Brian Vickery
01-10-2002, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by abarnhar
At the dojo last night, I paired up with an individual, whom I have never worked with before. After the standard instruction by our Sensei, we proceeded to begin practice. Throughout practice, he would offer advice that was contrary to what Sensei had just instructed. ...

Hi Adam!

There's a name for what you partner was doing, it's called "Shadow Teaching". This happens in every dojo and seminar I've ever been to, so it's just something that you eventually get used to. But that doesn't mean you have to like it, or that this an acceptable behavior.

A few years ago, Aikido Today Magazine printed a really good article on this very subject, it's in issue #54 and it's titled appropriately enough: "Shadow Teaching" by D. Kundan.

Every so often I post a copy of this article on the dojo bulletin board when I notice students doing this....works like a charm everytime! If you can get your hands on this issue of ATM, you might want to do the same and see what happens!

Regards,

guest1234
01-10-2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by [Censored]
[B]

Ouch. :D

Here is a fun experiment to try. Take the greenest "student" in your school, slap a skirt on them, and have them teach an intro class to some new prospects. The normal "teacher" will put on a white belt and join the class as a "student".

Observe the normal teacher making valuable suggestions to their partners, and observe the generally resentful and unappreciative responses.

ego.]

Actually, I have found that the good teachers, when they are students in other classes, do not indulge in mat teaching. As I've said before, those who do this generally are no where near as good as they think they are. So, while the 6th dans don't feel compelled to talk their partners to death, the 6th kyus through shodan do...wonder why that is ...might it be that 10 point word?

Erik
01-10-2002, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by [Censored]
Here is a fun experiment to try. Take the greenest "student" in your school, slap a skirt on them, and have them teach an intro class to some new prospects. The normal "teacher" will put on a white belt and join the class as a "student".

Observe the normal teacher making valuable suggestions to their partners, and observe the generally resentful and unappreciative responses.

I think you've got this one wrong. Beginners often take any advice they can grasp and hold on to. Good, bad, awful, they don't care.

Erik's modification:

One part intermediate student who can handle most falls.
One part sensei in new white belt and poor fitting gi.
One part dojo where no one knows sensei.

Enjoy!

[Censored]
01-10-2002, 06:16 PM
As I've said before, those who do this generally are no where near as good as they think they are. So, while the 6th dans don't feel compelled to talk their partners to death, the 6th kyus through shodan do...

I welcome the practice partner who tries to talk me to death. 90% of their advice is tedious nonsense, and 9% of the remainder is redundant, but that last 1% makes it all worthwhile.

Everyone wants to be correct, but not at the terrible expense of being corrected.

wonder why that is ...might it be that 10 point word?

There is no Aikido without ego. Put down your box of fortune cookies and Try Again. :)

Erik's modification:

One part intermediate student who can handle most falls.
One part sensei in new white belt and poor fitting gi.
One part dojo where no one knows sensei.

Good. Let's also have the sensei add in a few Bruce Lee-style yelps after each throw. Those poor people won't know who to worship :D

Thalib
01-10-2002, 06:37 PM
We have a saying, "Gold is still gold, even when it comes out of a pig's mouth".

One will learn, one way of another. One will learn from good teachers, and one will also learn from bad teachers. There is always a lesson to be learned in every situation.

Think about this, and learn it well.

guest1234
01-10-2002, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by [Censored]
[B]

Everyone wants to be correct, but not at the terrible expense of being corrected.



Instructors are there to correct. Students are there to train.

I would just prefer to do what the sensei is showing, rather than what the partner is rambling about...call me old-fashioned, but I come to class to practice what is shown. I nearly laughed out loud at a seminar where a black belt from a style not that of the instructor was loudly insisting I do the technique his way, rather than the way it was shown. The 7th Dan instructor walked over, let him finish, then looked straight at me and said 'you were right' and walked on.

You obviously like to teach your partners, I would prefer people shut up and train. We each have our own way of learning. Yours is not wrong, but it is not the only way.

Edward
01-10-2002, 11:30 PM
Hi All,

I have posted my opinion somewhere earlier but I will post it again.

The Germans say: " Wenn Reden ist Silber, Schweigen ist Gold". Meaning if Talking is made of silver, silence is made of gold.

I believe Sempais have the obligation to teach their partners in 2 cases:

1. The partner specifically asks for help.
2. The partner does not know what to do at all and would block the practice if not instructed what to do. (If Sensei is nearby, let him do the job).

In any other case, it is very impolite towards the teacher to start teaching your partner. If you really think that your partner is doing wrong, and you feel so benevolently compelled to correct his technique, when it's your turn to be Nage, just do the technique as correctly and as slowly as possible, and your partner will learn it from your action better than from your words. Or better call the Sensei and ask him if the technique is correct or not, and he will be very happy to explain it to both of you.

If you don't believe me, perhaps you would believe Osensei. I don't have the exact quote right now, but I will post it in a few hours. He says something like: Aikido cannot be grasped by words, so shut up and practice!

Cheers,
Edward

Edward
01-11-2002, 01:48 AM
Here are the actual verses of Osensei.

Aiki cannot be exhausted
By words written or spoken
Without dabbling in idle talk
Understand through practice


Cheers,
Edward

Arianah
01-11-2002, 07:52 AM
Aiki cannot be exhausted
By words written or spoken
Without dabbling in idle talk
Understand through practice

Hmm . . . I wonder if O'Sensei would disapprove of a forum where all we do is try to pick apart the concepts of Aiki with words written or spoken.:confused: :)

Arianah

[Censored]
01-11-2002, 12:29 PM
You obviously like to teach your partners.

Wrong. I don't like it at all. It is the 2nd worst thing I could do in class.

If you really think that your partner is doing wrong, and you feel so benevolently compelled to correct his technique, when it's your turn to be Nage, just do the technique as correctly and as slowly as possible, and your partner will learn it from your action better than from your words.

This only works if your partner has an eye for subtle changes.

Or better call the Sensei and ask him if the technique is correct or not, and he will be very happy to explain it to both of you.

Here in America, nobody likes a tattletale. :)

If you don't believe me, perhaps you would believe Osensei.

Who has spent all their time training with O'Sensei's method?

O'Sensei didn't.

Who has reached O'Sensei's level, by following his training method?

Nobody.

Erik
01-11-2002, 12:58 PM
Who has reached O'Sensei's level, by following his training method?

Nobody.

But, have they all hung from trees to try and grow taller?

I think not!

So how can you say that anyone has followed his training methods?

Or, could that be the point. ;)

PeterR
01-11-2002, 01:02 PM
At Shodokan Honbu you are taught to teach almost from the beginning.

The usual situation is a static senior line and a rotating junior line with sempai expected to help their kohai progress.

Every class there is a portion reserved for grading preparation where you tend to be matched with someone two grades above or below you.

Sure you get the talkers (I was one - go figure) but eventually you want to get some practice in yourself and learn that correct one or two things and then get down to it. for some it takes a little longer to figure out and strangely I have seen people getting called on for not correcting as much as overcorrecting.

The overall atmosphere has a very low level of chatter. Most of the correction is by example anyway.

Erik
01-11-2002, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
(I was one - go figure)


THAT IS UNBELIEVABLE!

I, on the other hand, will sometimes keep a running conversation going while bouncing around the mat but at 600+ posts we all know I'm a veritable fountain of wisdom. Or, at least a fountain of something....

PeterR
01-11-2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Erik
THAT IS UNBELIEVABLE!
:D
Well my only saving grace is the last time I was corrected over this by Shihan it was because I did not correct enough.

Erik
01-11-2002, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
Well my only saving grace is the last time I was corrected over this by Shihan it was because I did not correct enough.

To be more serious, that was one definite difference about my visit to the Tomiki folks. I was always paired off with someone. Most classes, in my experience, tend to be fumble around affairs where everyone runs to their favorites and trains. I've gone to some places as a visitor and wound up scrambling for a partner which interestingly is usually a beginner who also didn't jump fast enough.

Personally, I don't mind working with beginners, and I'm comfortable that I do more good than bad, but it seems more than a little bit strange that a dojo would entrust a visitor, whom they don't really know, with the most important part of their crop, so to speak.

And, the idea of learning to teach from the beginning is incredibly valuable.

Edward
01-11-2002, 09:19 PM
Hi Sarah,

I don't think he would mind, since we are doing this as over time on the top of our practice :)

Cheers,
Edward

Edward
01-11-2002, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by [Censored]

[b]If you really think that your partner is doing wrong, and you feel so benevolently compelled to correct his technique, when it's your turn to be Nage, just do the technique as correctly and as slowly as possible, and your partner will learn it from your action better than from your words.

This only works if your partner has an eye for subtle changes.



I like to believe that if my Kohai does not understand from me showing the example, this means that he's not ready yet for the technique. I have been in situations where no matter how many times my Sempai explained a technique to me, I didn't get it. And then one day, without any obvious reason, I just got it right. I think we all have had similar experiences.

Cheers,
Edward

akiy
01-12-2002, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Edward
I like to believe that if my Kohai does not understand from me showing the example, this means that he's not ready yet for the technique. I have been in situations where no matter how many times my Sempai explained a technique to me, I didn't get it. And then one day, without any obvious reason, I just got it right. I think we all have had similar experiences.
I don't know, really. I'm guessing that all of the prior experiences in "not getting" the technique always helps someone "get" the technique. I don't think there's ever a time when someone "gets" something they haven't "gotten" in the past without this kind of work.

I guess I'm agreeing with George Leonard sensei who says in his book Mastery that we all encounter plateaus in our training before progress. He says that progress can not happen without these plateaus. One example he uses is that for a person who is used to playing in the 90's in golf to get his game down into the 80's, he's probably going to have to play in the 100's while he's "improving" his game.

I think that all of the training that we've done so far, whether we "understand" it or not, comes into play when we're learning something. These "sudden" spurts of improvement, in my mind, wouldn't come without periods of not "understanding."

-- Jun

Edward
01-12-2002, 09:50 AM
Hello Jun,

In fact, your reply does not contradict my view on the matter.

We all pass by these plateaux for certain techniques, and no matter what we do, we need to wait for the technique to mature in our head before we are able to do it. The duty of the Sempai is to show the technique to his Junior as correctly as he can and as often as he can, sort of showing him the good example. If he does not get it right, insisting and pressurizing him would only lead to his frustration. Just letting things fall into place naturally would be better.

My opinion is based on my own personal experience. Probably there are some people who like to be verbally taught by their Sempai during class, but not me. I prefer the more subtle way of mute demonstration :)

Cheers,
Edward

unsound000
01-15-2002, 12:38 AM
Last week my game was in the 90's and now it's 100. I hope 80 rolls around soon:) It's really true what you say though. Right now, I'm not sure if my brain is figuring out what I was doing right or what I still need to do right. damn.

Originally posted by akiy


I guess I'm agreeing with George Leonard sensei who says in his book Mastery that we all encounter plateaus in our training before progress. He says that progress can not happen without these plateaus. One example he uses is that for a person who is used to playing in the 90's in golf to get his game down into the 80's, he's probably going to have to play in the 100's while he's "improving" his game.

I think that all of the training that we've done so far, whether we "understand" it or not, comes into play when we're learning something. These "sudden" spurts of improvement, in my mind, wouldn't come without periods of not "understanding."

-- Jun

jimvance
01-15-2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Edward
...we need to wait for the technique to mature in our head before we are able to do it. The duty of the Sempai is to show the technique to his Junior as correctly as he can and as often as he can, sort of showing him the good example.Isn't this primarily the teacher's job? Sempai/Kohai relationships are based on a heirarchy of ability, but that does not mean the Sempai necessarily knows what they are doing, or "showing the good example". Half the battle of doing correct things is leaving out what is incorrect. I don't think we need to wait for the technique to mature only in the head, that is one of the reasons for strigent anti-verbalization used in classical Japanese disciplines. An intellectual understanding of what we are doing is necessary, but that is not the goal of training on the mat.

Probably there are some people who like to be verbally taught by their Sempai during class, but not me. I prefer the more subtle way of mute demonstration.I don't want to sound impolite, but I find it very hard and much more subtle to convey instruction through correct verbiage than to simply walk through the technique. Sometimes "walking the talk" is hard because we have to know how to talk correctly, and know that we can do what we are saying. Don't forget that though you may be a visual or kinesthetic learner, there are those out there who must hear things in order to grasp them completely. I live in the Southwestern United States and that is a very common trait amongst Native Americans.
Do your best to emulate your teacher's ability and articulate what you can to those who feel it important to listen. Just remember Abe Lincoln's "it is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." I sometimes think that Westerners take the "silent treatment" a bit too far and use it as an excuse to show how wise they are.

Jim Vance

Edward
01-16-2002, 12:10 AM
Hi Jim,

My actual position on this matter is even more radical. I am against any tutoring at all by students. Practice time is sacred and most valuable and should not be wasted by talking. Our purpose is to practice not to teach. We just follow the Sensei's example and try to emulate his technique as good as we can. If he finds any substantial flaw, he will come to correct it, otherwise he will let you fine-tune your technique by practice.

I have a principle NEVER to teach my partner even when he's doing wrong. And I don't want anyone to teach me even if I'm doing all wrong. There is a teacher whose duty is this very task, so leave it up to him.

Now since some people feel a great urge to teach no matter what, I prefer that they teach by action and example. If they start to talk, I just say shut-up and practice. Of course it's not a silent movie, and the partner could say for instance: "Would you like to try it this way?" but that's just about all what I tolerate. Lengthy explanations are not welcome.

I leave the technical discussion and speculation for the beer session after the class.

Cheers,
Edward

Mares
01-16-2002, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by Edward
Hi Jim,

My actual position on this matter is even more radical. I am against any tutoring at all by students. Practice time is sacred and most valuable and should not be wasted by talking. Our purpose is to practice not to teach. We just follow the Sensei's example and try to emulate his technique as good as we can. If he finds any substantial flaw, he will come to correct it, otherwise he will let you fine-tune your technique by practice.

I have a principle NEVER to teach my partner even when he's doing wrong. And I don't want anyone to teach me even if I'm doing all wrong. There is a teacher whose duty is this very task, so leave it up to him.

Now since some people feel a great urge to teach no matter what, I prefer that they teach by action and example. If they start to talk, I just say shut-up and practice. Of course it's not a silent movie, and the partner could say for instance: "Would you like to try it this way?" but that's just about all what I tolerate. Lengthy explanations are not welcome.

I leave the technical discussion and speculation for the beer session after the class.

Cheers,
Edward

I actually like being taught by sempai. It gives a different perspective, and that's just my opinion.

Edward, what about during free training do you like to talk things through with your peers as u do techniques or do u guys just go at it hammer and tongs?

Regards

Edward
01-16-2002, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Mares


I actually like being taught by sempai. It gives a different perspective, and that's just my opinion.

Edward, what about during free training do you like to talk things through with your peers as u do techniques or do u guys just go at it hammer and tongs?

Regards

Hello Michael,

We all have different preferences and there is no right and wrong, just like or dislike.

Sorry but I didn't understand what you mean by free training. Do you mean Randori?
If yes, well it's rather the second option :(

Cheers,
Edward

jimvance
01-16-2002, 09:26 AM
Talking and teaching are not the same thing. Giving verbal "feedback" can be a stimulus to sempai as well as to kohai. Disseminating cultural idiosyncracy should not the goal of aikido be. I am not saying the Japanese model is flawed; it is Japanese. I am not, and neither are my teachers or training partners. My paradigm is radically different than the Japanese paradigm, but Aikido is a universal subject. Kind of like the finger pointing at the moon. I am not interested in what the finger looks like. Here is a good article that can be found on the Aikiweb.

http://www.aikiweb.com/teaching/clark1.html

Jim Vance

Edward
01-16-2002, 10:14 AM
This is an excellent article that I've already read previously, actually more than one time.

But it deals, I guess, with the teacher's approach, and in this respect, I have nothing to say. The teacher can explain any way he finds suitable, combining visual, auditory, kinesthetic...etc.

But the problem is when partners start teaching, this is where we disagree... :(

Cheers,
Edward

Erik
01-16-2002, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Edward
But the problem is when partners start teaching, this is where we disagree... :(


Teaching takes place in many forms. If you flub a technique and I don't fall I'm helping to teach you that you might have done something wrong. If I'm sempai in this case I've also got to scale my attack and intensity to a level that nage can handle and be pushed by. This is teaching. If you tap someone on the forehead when they leave an opening you are also participating in an act of teaching. Sometimes, just by being an obnoxious ass, a partner is teaching you how you don't want to be.

If they start to talk, I just say shut-up and practice.

I bet that if your partner has a bunch more notches on the belt you don't tell them to shut up should they offer you some advice.

There are some people that will talk you to death and I understand the pain inflicted in those cases. But to categorically deny feedback during a class just slows down your learning process. I've received more than a few gems from someone my junior in terms of rank. Often, the only way they can communicate that is through words. I want that feedback.

I don't know about anyone else but my purpose in getting on the mat, outside of having fun, is to learn and where possible to help others to learn. If that is done by someone talking then talk.

jimvance
01-16-2002, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Edward
...But it deals, I guess, with the teacher's approach, and in this respect, I have nothing to say.
But the problem is when partners start teaching, this is where we disagree...
Hypothetical: What happens when two teachers practice together? Let's make the point of saying they are of equal rank and have different strengths and weaknesses, but are basically technically equal. How do they progress with their practice?
The point I am trying to make is not intended to be litigious.
My point: From where do we receive our authority in our practice? If you are a junior student, a beginner, the teacher is the source of authority. At what point do we gain authority, and where does that authority come from? I know this is somewhat off the subject of the thread, but I think it relates to the initial post. Some people claim that all authority in Aikido comes from its founder, some make other claims. Do we become teachers when our teacher says that we can, or do we take authority in small bites, starting with ourselves? These are hypothetical questions that as a beginner I needed answered.
If you decide to practice a certain way, be sure that it serves a purpose, and is not detrimental to your progress or the progress of others. In the model given above, I doubt there would be a lot of "chatter" from the two high level practitioners. But I doubt they would tell each other to "shut up and train".

Jim Vance

Mares
01-16-2002, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Edward


Hello Michael,

We all have different preferences and there is no right and wrong, just like or dislike.

Sorry but I didn't understand what you mean by free training. Do you mean Randori?
If yes, well it's rather the second option :(

Cheers,
Edward

it's all good though, if everyone was the same this would be a boring world.

by free training I meant unofficial training or just stuff u do outside of class with other classmates, whether before or after class our any other time really.

Edward
01-16-2002, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Mares


it's all good though, if everyone was the same this would be a boring world.

by free training I meant unofficial training or just stuff u do outside of class with other classmates, whether before or after class our any other time really.

I see. Well, I myself rarely talk when I'm doing any kind of Aikido practice. But I must tell you that usually, my Thai classmates seem to do just the opposite, dissecting every move and holding long descriptions and comments about each part. They seem to favour this kind of learning.

Cheers,
Edward

Edward
01-16-2002, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Erik


Teaching takes place in many forms. If you flub a technique and I don't fall I'm helping to teach you that you might have done something wrong. If I'm sempai in this case I've also got to scale my attack and intensity to a level that nage can handle and be pushed by. This is teaching. If you tap someone on the forehead when they leave an opening you are also participating in an act of teaching. Sometimes, just by being an obnoxious ass, a partner is teaching you how you don't want to be.


Well this is the kind of partner I cherish the most.



I bet that if your partner has a bunch more notches on the belt you don't tell them to shut up should they offer you some advice.


Usually the Yudansha at my dojo are all a few years younger than me, so I have enough leverage on them to be able to do so ;) But please do not misunderstand me. Advice is always welcome. Long interventions are not.


There are some people that will talk you to death and I understand the pain inflicted in those cases. But to categorically deny feedback during a class just slows down your learning process. I've received more than a few gems from someone my junior in terms of rank. Often, the only way they can communicate that is through words. I want that feedback.

You are right, but I guess it depends on the situation. On some days, you are full of energy and you want to practice hard, and then you meet one of these philosophers who spoils your training. On others, you feel tired and have a few injuries, and such persons are suddenly a gift from heaven :)

Edward
01-16-2002, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by jimvance

I feel we are saying similar things but in different ways, emphasizing different aspects.


Hypothetical: What happens when two teachers practice together? Let's make the point of saying they are of equal rank and have different strengths and weaknesses, but are basically technically equal. How do they progress with their practice?

If it's a private practice or before or after class, I expect major discussions and analysis of techniques, which I have seen on several occasions during seminars and just watching this can be very educating. But during class, techniques are usually not discussed, just taught.

The point I am trying to make is not intended to be litigious.

In the countrary, it's a very interesting discussion.

My point: From where do we receive our authority in our practice? If you are a junior student, a beginner, the teacher is the source of authority. At what point do we gain authority, and where does that authority come from? I know this is somewhat off the subject of the thread, but I think it relates to the initial post. Some people claim that all authority in Aikido comes from its founder, some make other claims. Do we become teachers when our teacher says that we can, or do we take authority in small bites, starting with ourselves? These are hypothetical questions that as a beginner I needed answered.

In my opinion, we all have something to say no matter the rank or the experience. Authority is always earned and not given. I believe we get it by earning the respect not only of our teachers but also that of our fellow classmates.
I have seen teachers who enjoyed more authority than their seniors simply because students recognized in them certain technical and humane qualities which are higher than those of the seniors.

In the model given above, I doubt there would be a lot of "chatter" from the two high level practitioners. But I doubt they would tell each other to "shut up and train".

In my experience, those who explain the most are beginners. Eventhough I have encountered old aged high ranking Shihans who wouldn't stop teaching me during practice :) , but in this case, I am the one who should shut up and listen and feel grateful for the (undeserved)attention they are showing towards me.

Cheers,
Edward

unsound000
01-16-2002, 11:37 PM
No, you're all wrong (and you know who you are). Thalib is right. Osensei never says not to listen. You should understand at least why your partner has the wrong idea. How will you understand the great mistakes people make in life, if you can not understand the insignificant ones your partner makes in your dojo?


Originally posted by Edward
Here are the actual verses of Osensei.

Aiki cannot be exhausted
By words written or spoken
Without dabbling in idle talk
Understand through practice


Cheers,
Edward

PeterR
01-17-2002, 07:32 AM
I am often paired with sempai that have 5, 10 20 years more Aikido under their belt than myself. If I am doing something wrong, or a few words might clarify a point, I would hope they would speak up. There are even situations where a deshi is teaching the class and his sempai are taking it.

I have a problem with sempai doing something differently than what's being taught (thankfully rare) but a little well placed guidance by those who went before is not to be ignored or complained about.

Erik
01-17-2002, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by PeterR
I am often paired with sempai that have 5, 10 20 years more Aikido under my belt than myself.

Peter, I have to ask, what are your sempai doing under your belt?

If you ask me, I think you should be keeping better track of it.

PeterR
01-17-2002, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Erik


Peter, I have to ask, what are your sempai doing under your belt?

If you ask me, I think you should be keeping better track of it.

Ouch - my rampant ego getting the best of my self absorbed - self.

Corrected.