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jacksharp73
02-06-2008, 08:27 PM
:confused: i love aikido,i just wish that we could all come together and stop the insanity of training in your underwear!!!! the black belt should be enough people,it is in all the other MAs the hakama is a part of OUR AIKIDO suit so why in hells damnation can't those of us with overgrown hyperinflated selfabsorbed egos just get over it and let everyone wear the proper uniform for our training,both physically and spiritually?i say again that i love aikido i do not like at,the rudeness in our aikido family!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

Aristeia
02-07-2008, 02:45 AM
at least by restricting hakama to yudansha newbies don't have to fork out for one until they know they're serious.

happysod
02-07-2008, 03:08 AM
training in your underwear

Internet fable #10 - A dogi is not bloody underwear, please, let's kill this one once and for all
hakama's suck big time and the only reson anyone ever wants to wear it is either "it looks cool, see me flow" or "I look like I know what I'm doing and look at the respect I'm getting"

Fellow aikidoka, become free and burn your hakama with me. Let us remove the cullots which hamper our liberty and martial effectiveness and joyfully hit each other in the face, ribs and groin the way it's meant to be.

petra
02-07-2008, 03:08 AM
Wearing a hakama (usually in our dojo after grading 4th kyu, and at seminars after grading 2nd kyu) means you can take care of yourself during a technique. You know what is going to happen and you know how to break your falls. I am always much more careful with people without a hakama (that I don't know from the dojo's I train at) because they may not know what's coming.
Furthermore, hakama's are expensive if you are, for instance, a student on a very small income. So better make sure you are serious about aikido before buying one.
But I can also understand some of the confusion about wearing hakama's at different dojo's in different countries. Some wear them from day 1, others after 2nd kyu, some after 1st kyu, some after black belt... and my personal favorite, different rules for men and women (I really don't get that one)
I also noted some confusion about wearing a black belt after grading shodan (or higher), some do others don't and I know of 1 guy who's belt colour depends on what's in the laundry.
Anyone, any thoughts on that?

Demetrio Cereijo
02-07-2008, 04:55 AM
Wearing a hakama (usually in our dojo after grading 4th kyu, and at seminars after grading 2nd kyu) means you can take care of yourself during a technique.
...
Anyone, any thoughts on that?

I always believed tori's mission was to take care of uke, regardeless of rank or clothes they're wearing.

On topic:

I think there is some people who show too much attachment to transient things like grades, hakama wearing , keikogi fabric/label/colour... however, if these things make them happier, i'm happy too.

gdandscompserv
02-07-2008, 05:33 AM
Internet fable #10 - A dogi is not bloody underwear, please, let's kill this one once and for all
hakama's suck big time and the only reson anyone ever wants to wear it is either "it looks cool, see me flow" or "I look like I know what I'm doing and look at the respect I'm getting"

Fellow aikidoka, become free and burn your hakama with me. Let us remove the cullots which hamper our liberty and martial effectiveness and joyfully hit each other in the face, ribs and groin the way it's meant to be.
Hear, hear!
:D

lbb
02-07-2008, 06:33 AM
hakama's suck big time and the only reson anyone ever wants to wear it is either "it looks cool, see me flow" or "I look like I know what I'm doing and look at the respect I'm getting"

Hear, hear. I got my fill of hakama in jodo. They're a big PITA, and I'm hoping to never have to wear one in aikido.

phitruong
02-07-2008, 06:56 AM
you folks are missing the major point with the hakama. you know how we use parachute to decrease terminal velocity? same thing with the hakama. middle ranking folks (sort of like middle managers) tend to spend fair amount of time air borne and axed at the same time.

gdandscompserv
02-07-2008, 07:27 AM
But I look soo sexy in one.
:D

DonMagee
02-07-2008, 07:49 AM
I will never wear a hakama. Too much effort to wear and fold. Never going to happen.

As a side effect, if my aikido teacher ever decides to grade me (not likely as we have an verbal agreement), he can never grade me to brown belt as his rules require a hakama, and that means I could not come to class.

Will Prusner
02-07-2008, 08:45 AM
Fashion. :rolleyes:

I like practicing Aikido, I'd do it in a pair of tighty-whiteys.
Who cares whether they're wearing the "fancy" pants or not?

If my technique is so smoking hot that I can't for the life of me figure out how to progress any further in that area, then, maybe I will really start to focus on improving my martial fashion sense.

However, if my Sensei were to request I wear a Hakama, I'd do it, His House, His rules.

W.

p.s. - I'm sure it happens, but, I rarely here about a similar controversy from students of other arts. I have a pal who practices Ninpo, I have never heard him say anything along the lines of: "Oh man, I can't wait till I'm allowed to wear the fancy toe seperating ninja socks (tabi)!!!!!"

Ketsan
02-07-2008, 09:04 AM
Hear, hear. I got my fill of hakama in jodo. They're a big PITA, and I'm hoping to never have to wear one in aikido.

My relationship with my hakama degenerated to the point that it tried to murder me in Iaido.

gdandscompserv
02-07-2008, 12:47 PM
My relationship with my hakama degenerated to the point that it tried to murder me in Iaido.
funny
:D

CarrieP
02-07-2008, 02:49 PM
you folks are missing the major point with the hakama. you know how we use parachute to decrease terminal velocity? same thing with the hakama. middle ranking folks (sort of like middle managers) tend to spend fair amount of time air borne and axed at the same time.

Hee! Got a chuckle out uof that one. Thanks.

Amir Krause
02-07-2008, 03:21 PM
One of the funnest things is watching a new shodan, wearing his Hakama for the first time, starting zemp Ukemi (rolls) and discovering he has to relearn it. I still remember the shock, almost a decade after.

I have seen more Shodans tryig to wiggle out of wearing Hakama, then beginers wishin to wear one.

The only thing Hakama is good for, is Iai practice. Oh, and don't forget getting your feet and others stuck in the middle of movement\roll.

Amir

Demetrio Cereijo
02-07-2008, 03:56 PM
you folks are missing the major point with the hakama. you know how we use parachute to decrease terminal velocity? same thing with the hakama.

I've read in another forum the tale of a guy surviving a motorbike accident because the parachute effect of his hakama... seriously, i swear.

SentWest
02-07-2008, 04:53 PM
at least by restricting hakama to yudansha newbies don't have to fork out for one until they know they're serious.

Hallelujah, more money for weapons.

Nelson Bricker
02-07-2008, 07:20 PM
I've read in another forum the tale of a guy surviving a motorbike accident because the parachute effect of his hakama... seriously, i swear.

But did he fly off the bike because of the same reason??

Now my hakama and me have a love hate relationship depending on the week, but it definitely gives you a new feel at times and if you actually take the time to tie it tight it feels really good and together. My dojo lets you get a hakama after you pass your first test and prove you can take ukemi well enough though so I can't comment on the big egos, but I also don't test often.

eric_lecaptain
02-17-2008, 01:45 PM
i dont wear one as i am new but from my prospective, they look really cool.
however, from a practical stand point, they are completely useless.

Aikibu
02-17-2008, 02:14 PM
After 20 Years I still don't know how to fold one and other than perhaps learning how to someday LOL I never give my Hakama another thought.

It's just another pair of pants.

WIlliam Hazen

Dan Rubin
02-17-2008, 10:11 PM
After 20 Years I still don't know how to fold one

"How to fold a hakama (Japanese technique)"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spMuosO7VR0&feature=related

Demetrio Cereijo
02-18-2008, 02:32 AM
I don't fold it.

The time time my yudansha partners spend folding theirs I spend telling the kyudansha how much are they progressing, answering their waza related questions (if i know the answer, of course) and encouraging them to train. Then I throw the magic pants in the bag so they learn themselves how to blend with the keikogi.

Pauliina Lievonen
02-18-2008, 02:51 AM
My hakama folds itself...:cool:

kvaak
Pauliina

mathewjgano
02-18-2008, 03:20 PM
hakama's suck big time and the only reson anyone ever wants to wear it is either "it looks cool, see me flow" or "I look like I know what I'm doing and look at the respect I'm getting"


nuh uh! I look cool all by myself, my mom said so:cool: ! And if I burn my Hakama what excuse will I have when I trip over my own two feet?!
...er, not that this happens to me...I have this...uh...friend, though.:D
On a less serious note though, I do enjoy the little meditative moment at the end of each training session in which I fold my hakama.

Kevin Leavitt
02-18-2008, 04:19 PM
Uniforms, traditions, customs and courtesies.

They are both good and bad.

They establish heritage, order and discipline, that is necessary for the sustainment of an organization.

At the same time, they can inhibit growth and learning, and become the central focus.

Moderation as in anything is key.

happysod
02-19-2008, 04:18 AM
I nominate Kevin for the "aikiweb Dad" spot for his disgustingly reasonable responses (and can I borrow the card Thursday?)

ramenboy
02-19-2008, 02:02 PM
...the black belt should be enough people,it is in all the other MAs:rolleyes:

so we get rid of our hakama, and that will get rid of over-inflated egos?

there's as many people in other MAs wearing black belts who have hyperinflated egos as there are people in aikido who wear hakama.

Ron Tisdale
02-19-2008, 02:25 PM
Hyperinflated bellies, too... :D

B,
R

ramenboy
02-19-2008, 02:55 PM
Hyperinflated bellies, too... :D

B,
R

hahahahaa
:p

mari
02-19-2008, 03:34 PM
i love my hakama, most of the time.. :D when practicing without it, I feel like i have lost my pants and that is not a good feeling :D :D :D

Keith Larman
02-19-2008, 06:06 PM
Wear 'em, don't wear 'em, big deal... Anyone who is serious who's been training long enough quickly forgets about that crap. You work hard for years to get that black belt then you work hard for more years trying to figure it all out. The belt, hakama, keikogi, etc. just don't matter in the long run. That includes if you wear them or if you don't.

As an aside, I visited a friend's BJJ school. Lots of "camo" grappling shorts. Seemed to be the "official" pants of the school. I just kept thinking how useful camoflauge grappling shorts were in the ring... "Ooooh, where did he go?"

Everyone wears their uniform of one type or another. Be it their clothes, be it communicated through relationships, be it by authority, be it whatever. Every group has its ways of doing things. The social aspect shows itself eventually. Contrary to protestations there are always signs of hierarchy, authority, ego, and on and on... They just dress differently at each place... ;)

You stay long enough you get to know everyone. You stay long enough you get to see people start and quit. Those who stay know each other and things like belts, hakama, etc. become meaningful only as the outfit you put on to go train. The rest is what you learn on the mat.

I just want a velcro one for when I'm running late. And the mythical self-folding hakama... that'd be nice...

So in many ways... they're just pants. And part of the tradition. We wear 'em from nikyu on in Seidokan. And who really cares if some numbnuts attaches too much significance to the things. People are entitled to their delusions, I'm too busy working on understanding my own... ;)

So just train more.

It seems to me to be an issue *waaaaay* down at the very bottom of the priority scale...

Taliesin
02-21-2008, 10:15 AM
For me I'm with Ian & Amir

What I'm trying to get my head around is the uber-sadistic idea of getting Kyu grades to wear the bl***y things.

Although even I have to admit they are incredibly good at crushing whatever pretensions to expertise I may have had. (nothing shrinks an ego like tripping over your Hakama)

jacksharp73
02-22-2008, 04:18 PM
:) hey guys i really appreciate evryones thoughts on the subject,it has really helped me wrap my head around the subject.its just that i ahve been to a few other dojo here in seattle and was told that only shodan and up wear that hakama and when i said that i dont feel comfortable without mine on the yodan said i couldn't train at that dojo then,i was hurt and very sad.why not allow a visitor from another dojo where their hakama to the session and should they decide that they want to join that dojo then as has been said "their house their rules".or am i TOTALLY in the wrong for my approach on the whole thing?
thanks alot guys you all are one heck of a help to me,
jack

Pauliina Lievonen
02-22-2008, 05:45 PM
why not allow a visitor from another dojo where their hakama to the session and should they decide that they want to join that dojo then as has been said "their house their rules".
If you came to visit my house, I'd ask you to take your shoes off. What would you do? Would you tell me "I'm sorry, but I don't feel comfortable without my shoes"? Would you find that at all rude?

kvaak
Pauliina

ChS_23
02-22-2008, 06:36 PM
If you came to visit my house, I'd ask you to take your shoes off. What would you do? Would you tell me "I'm sorry, but I don't feel comfortable without my shoes"? Would you find that at all rude?

Let me try another example:
Would you ask a girl with a headscarf, to take it of while in your house?

Bronson
02-23-2008, 10:18 PM
Would you ask a girl with a headscarf, to take it of while in your house?

If it is my house I have that right. She can take it off or sit outside. My house, my rules.

Bronson

p.s. And before anybody asks "why would you make her take it off", I don't need a reason. Iit's my house and I said so is reason enough.

jacksharp73
02-23-2008, 11:09 PM
i completely understand all of what you guys say however i must agree with bronson his house his rules and thats that,but hey we can still be friends even if we disagree right? i would also like to add that i will be taking and with all hopes passing my first 3rd kyu test so please everyone wish me luck i have been training really hard for the past few months and i think i finally got the footwork up to mediocre :)

jacksharp73
02-23-2008, 11:10 PM
oh by the way i thought we were suposed to take our hats off indoors :)

jacksharp73
02-23-2008, 11:43 PM
This is jack's wife...

I think there is one basic fallacy in the "shoes in the house" argument...and that would be that there is a practical reason for removing shoes indoors, especially if you have tatami or (like us) a crawling toddler..cleanliness for all concerned.

Whether someone trains in long white cotton underwear or hakama, on the other hand, will not affect the state of the dojo's socks or hasten the necessity for floor cleaning.

Just a thought, between endless rounds of running the vacuum.

Aristeia
02-24-2008, 02:00 AM
There is a practical reason for asking jack to take of the hakama. In *that* particular dojo it's got a particular meaning attached to it. By the sensei, by the students. How do you think the other students would react to someone breaking one of their strong cultural tennants? Would they think it's fair. To go to someone elses house and say "hey I understand this is the way you and everyone else here does it but it makes me uncomfortable so I don't wanna" and then complain when you're told that will exclude you from participation seems....odd. If the hakama really doesn't mean anything why not just take it off when local rules dictate? And if it does mean something - then respect the meaning given by that club and take it off. Either way, take the damn thing off and train, or go down the road. Simple imo.

Aristeia
02-24-2008, 02:03 AM
the yodan said i couldn't train at that dojo then,i was hurt and very sad.why not allow a visitor from another dojo where their hakama to the session and should they decide that they want to join that dojo tyep totally wrong imo. I personally would find it very rude for a visitor to express a desire to flout the rules I have laid down for my students. If it applies to my students who give me loyalty and are there every night- why would I be lax for some drop in? Are you suggesting that visitors should be able to pick and choose what rules they follow in a dojo based on their comfort?

ChS_23
02-24-2008, 07:19 AM
If it is my house I have that right. She can take it off or sit outside. My house, my rules.
According to:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=196407&postcount=16
I would say you are as much wrong, as you are right...

ChS_23
02-24-2008, 07:27 AM
There is a practical reason for asking jack to take of the hakama. In *that* particular dojo it's got a particular meaning attached to it. By the sensei, by the students. How do you think the other students would react to someone breaking one of their strong cultural tennants? Would they think it's fair.
No...
...life isn't fair. So deal with it!
Or you have to keep the rest of the world out and live in a bubble. No visitors, no risk of confusion...

Aristeia
02-24-2008, 10:00 AM
or...you expect your visitors to have the decency to follow your rules once they're politely explained. Those that refuse to you may likely be better off without.

You don't have to live in a bubble - thankfully the *vast* majority of visitors are happy to go along with the etiquette in a dojo they are guests in - so no problem.

This isn't a case of confusion, this is a case of a visitor expecting the hosts to *change* their rules to suit them.

ChS_23
02-24-2008, 10:23 AM
This isn't a case of confusion, this is a case of a visitor expecting the hosts to *change* their rules to suit them.
I hope that the term of "diplomatic immunity" can help you to see the difference.

The visitor does not want to change the dressing of the hosts. He just wants to keep his own dressing.

No rule without exceptions...

P.S.: hope I didn't confuse salad and clothes ;-)

Aristeia
02-24-2008, 10:29 AM
exactly- he wants to change the rules for himself. What if someone came to your dojo and said that where he comes from people train in black belts from day one so he would like to wear his despite only having 3 months training? would your club say "sure" or would you chuck him one of the spare white belts.

There is no valid reason for expecting an exception to the rule here. Either take off the hakama and demonstrate you're prepared to follow the rules or take your leave.

If I was the instructor I would be concerned about such behaviour from a visitor and likely be happy to see them leave. If they want to make an exception to the rules on this - what other rules may they want to import from their dojo onto my mat? If they're prepared to be arrogant and rude enough to want to insist on their way rather than my way in my dojo, how are they likely to treat their partner? It raises a host of questions....

Aristeia
02-24-2008, 10:42 AM
and of course diplomatic immunity does not apply to tourists. If doshu shows up and wants to do something different, sure he can knock himself out.

Aikibu
02-24-2008, 12:03 PM
"Crying?" "You're Crying!!?!!" "There's no Crying in baseball!"

Your Hakama Koan for the day gentleman. :)

William Hazen

Aristeia
02-24-2008, 12:11 PM
:d

ChS_23
02-24-2008, 01:06 PM
What if someone came to your dojo and said that where he comes from people train in black belts from day one so he would like to wear his despite only having 3 months training? would your club say "sure" or would you chuck him one of the spare white belts.
We would say "sure". Maybe we would offer him a spare white belt, if he wants one, but the basic statement would be:
"Sure, be our guest! You are welcome as you are. Nice that you are here. Lets have a great training."

Treat others as you want to be treated...

The point is changing if he wants to join the club as a member.

Aristeia
02-24-2008, 04:06 PM
Treat others as you'd want to be treated? Well I'd be happy to accept the rules of a club I'm visiting so maybe that's the difference.

Keith Gotschall
02-24-2008, 05:15 PM
I'm with Michael here.

In my original dojo, hakama was "awarded" with your black belt. I was cool with that and looked forward to the day when I had really earned it.

However, I moved, and my current sensei has asked me to wear hakama even though I am still mid-kyu level. It felt a little weird at first, because of my attachment to this whole earning it thing. I also feel strongly that what sensei says goes. His dojo, his rules. So, I am wearing hakama, but only in our dojo. When I go to train at any other dojos, I show up in white belt. That's it. As a visitor it is the obliging thing to do. It doesn't really matter what color your belt is right, the training is the important thing. So the idea of wearing hakama at a different dojo, when it isn't worn by aikidoka of the same grade there, is kind of laughable to me.

When your visiting another dojo, you show respect to them for letting you train there by playing by their rules. You wouldn't think of showing how "you" do shihonage would you? No, you follow the technique being shown by the sensei. If asked then you share a different technique, if asked to wear your hakama, only then do you wear it. My opinion anyway.

Keith

raul rodrigo
02-24-2008, 07:13 PM
HI:

A person who in another dojo wasn't willing to take off his hakama or wear a white belt would likely be also unwilling to change the way he does waza or accept the instruction of the sensei. Some are saying its just clothing and should make no difference either way. If it is just clothing, then I for one tend to be very wary of those who insist on a hakama, because they will probably insist on other things, many of them not conducive to good keiko.

R

ChS_23
02-24-2008, 08:43 PM
If it is just clothing, then I for one tend to be very wary of those who insist on a hakama
...or who insists on no hakama...

Everyone who insists on something tends to stand on the wrong side...
...and there is every time an "altera pars"...

I think its worth to repeat:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=196407&postcount=16

dragonteeth
02-24-2008, 08:43 PM
Our dojo's kinda odd in that you may wear one before shodan, but you must wear one after earning your black belt, and also must wear one if it is "discovered" that you actually have one sitting in the closet. That happened to me - our dojo founder remembered that I had one from practicing a different art over a decade ago, and threatened me with 48 hours of unrelenting yonkyo if I didn't wear it.

Honestly I don't really mind. I think I might be one of the few people who actually enjoys the feeling of wearing one, and oddly enough one of my teachers can actually see a difference in the quality of my technique when I don't wear it. Go figure. Maybe it's a "dressing the part" subconscious thing, or maybe the way I have to move to get out of the way of all that cloth makes my movements naturally more circular. It also keeps the bottom of my white belt from smacking me in the face when I take a back fall and widens the color selection for lacy unmentionables on practice days (friends don't let friends wear red thongs under a white gi!).

I think our dojo founder would have required everyone to wear it but for the cost of acquiring one. His opinion (as relayed to me) is that if it mattered enough to O-Sensei to make every one of his students wear one even if it was made from recycled futon covers, then he should honor that by doing the same. But we do have a wide range of economic conditions amongst the students in our dojo, and he doesn't want someone to have to leave practice because they cannot shuck out $200 for uniform parts.

That said, I still respect the rules of any dojo that I visit concerning uniforms, or anything else for that matter. Heck there are other rules in different dojos that are much harder for me to deal with than that. We tend to be a chatty group when practicing for instance, discussing the technique as we practice, occasionally even cracking jokes, and in general following the "practice with a vibrant and joyful spirit" commandment with a hefty amount of gleeful zeal. Trust me when I say keeping my mouth shut in a different dojo is infinitely harder for me than keeping my hakama in my bag! Nevertheless, I am not going to let it stop me from visiting other dojo or going to seminars and doing my best to do as the Romans do while in Rome. After all, it's just another blending exercise from a different perspective.

Oh, and as for the difficulty folding bit, my teacher had the perfect answer - make it a testing requirement. Every student has to be able to fold a hakama correctly for their second test (which is 6th kyu for us). In fact we tend to get pretty testy with any of our sensei if they even think about folding their own!

Have a great week!
Lori

raul rodrigo
02-24-2008, 09:05 PM
...or who insists on no hakama...

Everyone who insists on something tends to stand on the wrong side...
...and there is every time an "altera pars"...

I think its worth to repeat:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=196407&postcount=16

But even in the example you cite, it's the host's job to put the guest in the seat of honor, if he so chooses. A guest who puts himself there unprompted is just asking for trouble. The Japanese way is to be self-effacing. If you go to a dojo and insist on your old habits, because you believe it is your entitlement as the guest, then in my neck of the woods, there are quite a few yudansha willing to issue attitude adjustments.

Bronson
02-24-2008, 10:14 PM
Agreed Raul.

It is the individuals responsibility to conform to the established group conventions.

If I visit a dojo I ask the Sensei what is the prefered uniform for visitors and then I wear what I'm told to wear. If I'm told to wear my normal stuff I do. If I'm told to wear a white belt that's fine too. It's really very simple.

Bronson

jacksharp73
02-25-2008, 12:09 AM
i think the next time im in europe i'll go to germany where i'll be welcome and stay the heck outta auckland :) i wasn't trying to pick a fight i honestly expected more hospitality than i got and had you heard the tone and the inflection of the senseis words then i think you would rethink yours,that was hatefull and you know what,no i wont go back to his dojo but should we meet at seminar then hey lets train and be friends its up to him be pompouse not me!!
i do understand bronsons points and am greatful to find a bunch of really cool people,thanks guys and for those hwo understand me,AWESOME,and those hwo don't,TRY HARDER!!!
JACK

David Yap
02-25-2008, 01:44 AM
Hi Jack,

In most of the aikikai dojo that I have attended, the wearing of hakama for ladies start at 5th kyu level (or even earlier if they can afford one) and for men when they obtain shodan. For the ladies it could be a matter of modesty after all, we don't like our lady folks to show off their white pyjamas in public.

However, there are some sensei who permit men to wear hakama even if before they attain shodan. The trend is that they are "instructed" to wear hakama once the sensei feel they can take reasonably good ukeme. The take of these sensei is that students who have come this far will eventually wear hakama, so why not let start them sooner. After all, any visitors will be impressed by the number of "high" ranking students and by swirling and flowing hakama in the dojo. I have experienced training with one such student in a seminar who could do fantastic koshinage techniques but was absolutely blurred with a just simple ikkyo technique.

Like you, Jack, he told me that he would be uncomfortable without his hakama.

I believe him.

David Y

David Yap
02-25-2008, 02:24 AM
By the way, Jack,

You are welcomed to wear your hakama at our dojo...so long as you can do a simple basic shihonage ;)

David Y

Keith Larman
02-25-2008, 10:46 AM
its just that i ahve been to a few other dojo here in seattle and was told that only shodan and up wear that hakama and when i said that i dont feel comfortable without mine on the yodan ...

Why are you so hung up on wearing the thing? Is all your ability really just stored in your magic hakama? I don't get it.

What your hakama means where you started is obviously different from where you're visiting. To be blunt, get over it, suit up the way they ask, and get out there and train. It hurts your feeling to be asked not to wear your hakama? Geez, they're just a pair of pants. It's not like they're asking you to wear a tiara along with a giant pink sash saying "total noob". They're simply asking that you dress according to the style they practice at that school. Wearing a hakama in that school is reserved for those at a certain rank. Why would it hurt your feelings - you don't have that rank. Heck, I've been in a hakama for a lot of years but I have visited other schools and on two occasions stepped onto the mat in my gi, white belt, with no hakama. Frankly its kinda nice to occasionally go without the "magic pants of aikipower"...

ChrisMoses
02-25-2008, 10:57 AM
To be blunt, get over it, suit up the way they ask, and get out there and train. It hurts your feeling to be asked not to wear your hakama? Geez, they're just a pair of pants.

THIS! We mostly train in (offensive) t-shirts and sweats these days. It really doesn't matter what you wear. Just train.

It's not like they're asking you to wear a tiara along with a giant pink sash saying "total noob".

Hey, now THERE'S an idea! Neil, we could really use this for seminars... :D

Keith Larman
02-25-2008, 11:03 AM
Oh, and I should add that if you truly got a "hateful" response, well, why would you want to train there? There's no reason one cannot be polite.

But honestly if someone asked me about it given our conventions I'd smile and suggest that unless they are at Nikyu or higher (where we do that stuff) it is probably best they didn't wear it. The simple reason being is that is when folk in our style start wearing them. And so others on the mat will have some preconceptions of your ability and I'd hate to see a visiting person get tossed into something they weren't equipped to handle.

Vanity is a silly thing to get injured over.

Keith Larman
02-25-2008, 11:16 AM
Hey, now THERE'S an idea! Neil, we could really use this for seminars... :D

For you guys or for the visitors? Fluffy aiki bunnies... ;)

We have some kids classes and one boy in particular kept forgetting his belt. So he comes running in with his gi flopping around. So each time I'd have to scrounge around and find a smaller white belt so he could train. Finally I took an old white belt and died it bright pink. Next time the kid came in (sadly with his belt on) I took him in back and proudly showed him that we had a new belt made specifically for kids who forget their belts. He never forgot his belt again...

But this all reminded me... I'm was going to put a few "hello kitty" patches on it too just in case I ever need it again...

Of course one problem is that we have a few kids that would probably like it... ;)

Ron Tisdale
02-25-2008, 11:26 AM
attachment.

Best,
Ron

Walter Martindale
02-25-2008, 11:49 AM
I'd been schooled that pre WW2 everyone in Aikido wore hakama, but I haven't seen a lot of archival film to confirm or dispute the idea - and I don't think it's important enough to get worked up about. However, about the time of WW2, mudansha in Japan were allowed to NOT wear hakama due to shortages of black fabric (blackout curtains were rather important at the time, prompted by the consequences of Pearl Harbour and other offenses). That became tradition after the war ended for economic reasons - hakama being rather expensive.

Hakama are traditional Japanese outer trousers. What we wear in Aikido are far less fancy than the ones you see at ceremonies.

I've been told, also, that when I started wearing hakama at 5th kyu (different dojo, different rules, I didn't wear one from 3rd kyu to shodan because of different dojo different rules), my footwork and movement improved - possibly teleologically - if my footwork and movement didn't improve, I'd be tripping all over the hakama.

Just my $NZ0.02 worth..
Cheers,
Walter

Karen Wolek
02-25-2008, 12:16 PM
Of course one problem is that we have a few kids that would probably like it... ;)

My daughter would forget her belt EVERY class! :D

Keith Larman
02-25-2008, 12:36 PM
My daughter would forget her belt EVERY class! :D

Yeah, I've been trying to figure out the appropriate approach for the girls. I showed the pink belt to my 7-year-old and she asked if she could wear it around the house as a sash...

Leslie Parks
02-26-2008, 04:26 PM
When I go to train at any other dojos, I show up in white belt. That's it. As a visitor it is the obliging thing to do.
When your visiting another dojo, you show respect to them for letting you train there by playing by their rules. You wouldn't think of showing how "you" do shihonage would you? No, you follow the technique being shown by the sensei. If asked then you share a different technique, if asked to wear your hakama, only then do you wear it. My opinion anyway.

Keith

Ditto, this is what I have always been taught. Pack your usual, but always, always pack a white belt and abide by the house rules.

sanosuke
02-26-2008, 08:36 PM
tell you the truth, wearing hakama is just fun at the beginning, the 'coolness', the 'samurai' look or whatsoever, just lasting for a few moments only. afterwards, comes the pain. (tripped during shikko/ukemi, uneasy feelling when seiza, not to mention it often drops bcos my belly is somewhat hyperinflated :-D).
However, bcos the hakama,along with the belt, was awarded to me by my sensei after i pass the grading. i don't have the heart to abandon it at home. So, i guess i have to blend with it.
to everybody with so called 'hakama syndrome' (if any,don't mean to offend). I tell you man, wearing hakama is not as cool as it looks.

gdandscompserv
02-26-2008, 10:32 PM
I rarely wear my hakama anymore.

d2l
02-27-2008, 12:18 PM
As far as the issue of wearing the Hakama, it is my opnion that the Hakama is merely a piece of clothing. While I do wear the Hakama at times, it is usually for demonstration purposes so that others can not disect the technique. We are all very well aware that the Hakama tends to hide foot and leg movment. However it should be noted that the Hakama is part of traditional Japanese dress. My Sensai has no problem with me, in particular, wearing it. I have only been studying for 3 years. Does that make me qualified? That is a question in the eye of the beholder. For me, the Hakama tends to be more of a hinderance at times. But it does feel good to get back to the roots of tradition on occasion. :)

Jennifer Yabut
02-27-2008, 12:20 PM
Why is wearing/not wearing a hakama even an issue? Isn't it proper etiquette for a visitor to simply abide by the dojo's rules, and *not* try to impose what *you* do at your home dojo? If I recall correctly, some Yoshikan aikidoka don't wear the hakama until sandan (someone please correct me if I'm wrong!)

At my dojo, only blackbelts wear a hakama; everyone else wears a white belt. This other dojo I visited, the instructor asked me to wear a hakama (I have one for Iaido), since his students start wearing hakama when they reach 3rd kyu. I didn't wear it the first time - and *everyone* tried correcting my technique, though I was a "higher kyu". The next visit I wore my hakama, and their treatment was *much* different. Kinda interesting how differently I was treated, because I wore a skirt. ;)

Seriously, though...wearing a hakama usually *does* imply a certain level of "skill". There is a danger in this assumption, because since different dojos have different rules regarding the hakama (e.g., wearing one from the beginning, at 5th kyu, 3rd kyu, etc), this could cause some confusion at seminars. Of course folks *should* be somewhat cognizant of uke's skill level - regardless if uke is wearing a hakama or not - and *not* immediately throw someone through the mat. I worked with a couple older women (both black belts) at a seminar last fall, and both admonished me for trying to throw them "too hard". I also trained with a number of hakama-wearing students - who clearly were *not* blackbelts and kept deferring to me (maybe because I looked like I knew what I was doing - lol).

Bronson
02-27-2008, 12:21 PM
...so that others can not disect the technique. We are all very well aware that the Hakama tends to hide foot and leg movment.

Sorry Anthony but it's time for you to hit the internet and do some research. Hiding foot movements was never the reason for the hakama.

Bronson

saha
02-27-2008, 01:32 PM
Did O sensei wear hakama?

Ron Tisdale
02-27-2008, 01:39 PM
Yes. He actually insisted on it for everyone during pre-war training. Things loosened up a bit post war...but he always wore one, from what I understand.

Best,
Ron

Bronson
02-27-2008, 01:41 PM
Did O sensei wear hakama?

Yes

And he also bowed.

Bronson

ramenboy
02-27-2008, 01:43 PM
...Isn't it proper etiquette for a visitor to simply abide by the dojo's rules, and *not* try to impose what *you* do at your home dojo?...

hey jen
i agree...i think we all do. and this goes beyond 'what not to wear' but also in practicing as a guest at the dojo. i was taught that when visiting a dojo, the style might be a little different, so try to do that style. i come across visitors saying 'in the dojo i'm from we do it this way'. or 'in my old dojo, we did it like this' .. jeez. go back to your dojo then.

its been said a few times in this thread and others, 'their house, their rules.'

CitoMaramba
02-27-2008, 01:45 PM
What a question! O-Sensei wore hakama even when he was getting "lei'd"!
http://www.aikidohawaii.org/history/koa_kimura/03_01.jpg

Will Prusner
02-27-2008, 02:19 PM
"Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within."

-The Man, Himself

CitoMaramba
02-27-2008, 02:20 PM
Yes. He actually insisted on it for everyone during pre-war training. Things loosened up a bit post war...but he always wore one, from what I understand.

Best,
Ron

Not quite "always" apparently :D
http://pics.livejournal.com/dangayan/pic/0005f6sa

Ron Tisdale
02-27-2008, 02:39 PM
YIKES!

Hmmm...I shower corrected...uh, I mean STAND, I stand corrected...

Best,
Ron :D

phitruong
02-27-2008, 03:44 PM
few days ago, we baited (with the promise of food and beer) Howard Popkin Sensei (daito ryu) to teach at our dojo. He said we wanted us to see his feet so he didn't wear the hakama. None of us wore our hakama and we all had good time. None of us gave much thought on the thing. Most of our focus were on sensei teaching, which was where it should be. A few days later, we hosted another group, Systema. The folks shown up wore various kind of camo outfit (must be a Russian thing). The camo didn't bring out the color of my eyes so I opted for sweat pants and t-shirt. I felt naked without my gi and hakama. However, when a bunch of big, nasty looking guys shown up, that feeling went away very quickly. We had great time with the Systema folks who didn't bow or high-five or any other things, other than genuinely enjoy practicing their art, and we, in turn, genuinely enjoy learning new and unusual ways of doing things.

I wondered if somebody have made camo hakama.

ChS_23
02-27-2008, 03:51 PM
If I invite someone to visit me in my house (OK, I have no house, but lets stick to this picture :-), I wouldn't want to speak the whole evening about myself...
...maybe I'm a selfish host wanting the guest to carry the outside world in the living-room, when he just wants to observer this house...
...Shoshin should be a term to both sides...

But lets try a matrix where "open mind" will lead to:
Visitor | Host
-------------------
No | No => Disaster
No | Yes => Visitor may be PITA to Host; Host can learn, Visitor not
Yes | No => Both can have a great time; Visitor can lern, Host not
Yes | Yes => That's the world, I'm dreaming of...

gdandscompserv
02-27-2008, 04:00 PM
The only way I can get my oldest son in the dojo is if he doesn't have to wear a gi. No problem there. My youngest son seems to like his gi. No problem there. When we go to aikido seminars we always show up in a gi. Sometimes I wear my hakama, sometimes not. Personally, I don't care what I'm wearing as long as I'm training.

CitoMaramba
02-27-2008, 04:07 PM
I wondered if somebody have made camo hakama.

Yup.
http://www.jp-stores.com/welt/shop/we60138/images/QOXm3F1163493768.jpg

ChS_23
02-27-2008, 04:14 PM
I wondered if somebody have made camo hakama.
Coming from snow-camo:
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/3806/snowcamo5cr.jpg
I hope you can accept cow-(camo)-hakama:
http://fy.chalmers.se/~frtae/aikido/jubileum/history/history1.jpg

Demetrio Cereijo
02-27-2008, 05:13 PM
O Sensei without hakama:

http://aikido-sakaki.com/FOTOS5/9AMPLI.jpg

Aristeia
02-27-2008, 05:36 PM
for those hwo understand me,AWESOME,and those hwo don't,TRY HARDER!!!
JACKI wonder if this is part of the problem?

Jennifer Yabut
02-27-2008, 08:52 PM
Yup.
http://www.jp-stores.com/welt/shop/we60138/images/QOXm3F1163493768.jpg

Oh my...isn't that...special. Almost as "attractive" as this "American-style" one: :yuck:

http://www.karatekorner.com/images/pictLarge/25570l.jpg

d2l
02-27-2008, 11:20 PM
Well, I suppose I'm wrong then about the Hakama being used to hide foot and leg movement. Next time my Sensai "spars" with me while wearing a Hakama, and I catch a knee to the gut, I'll know it didn't have anything to do with the Hakam hiding his stance.

Bronson
02-28-2008, 12:36 AM
Well, I suppose I'm wrong then about the Hakama being used to hide foot and leg movement. Next time my Sensai "spars" with me while wearing a Hakama, and I catch a knee to the gut, I'll know it didn't have anything to do with the Hakam hiding his stance.

I'm not saying it doesn't hide the feet; I'm just saying that hiding the feet wasn't the purpose for the thing.

Kinda like me taking a Benadryl when I can't sleep. It does make me drowsy but making people drowsy isn't what it was meant for :D

Bronson

Walter Martindale
02-29-2008, 07:38 AM
hey jen
i agree...i think we all do. and this goes beyond 'what not to wear' but also in practicing as a guest at the dojo. i was taught that when visiting a dojo, the style might be a little different, so try to do that style. i come across visitors saying 'in the dojo i'm from we do it this way'. or 'in my old dojo, we did it like this' .. jeez. go back to your dojo then.

its been said a few times in this thread and others, 'their house, their rules.'

My version of this is - well - that's different from how I'm used to doing it and boy do I feel clumsy...
More exposure to different ways of doing things fills your "toolbox" with lots of "tools".. While doing this I hope not to be too much of a "tool" myself... :D
W

ramenboy
02-29-2008, 10:12 AM
My version of this is - well - that's different from how I'm used to doing it and boy do I feel clumsy...


hi walter

i agree. i've got that clumsy feeling all the time!!!! :P

like you i try to do the technique the way the instructor shows. some don't, and that's where my beef is.

but i digress :P

back to topic...

dps
02-29-2008, 10:53 AM
I don't have a haukuma not can I spell It.

David

ramenboy
02-29-2008, 12:30 PM
I don't have a haukuma not can I spell It.

David

too much ukemi :P

Stefan Stenudd
03-02-2008, 03:22 PM
I think that the hakama helps to improve your posture, among other things.

The white keikogi and the black hakama meet at the center. From the center and downward is the flow that gives you balance and stability, illustrated by the hakama, and from the center and up is what you create, such as aikido techniques, illustrated by the white keikogi.

So the white and the black are like heaven and earth, and your center is in the very middle of that universe.

Also, as many others have said - it looks cool :)

Carl Thompson
03-02-2008, 05:40 PM
One thing I find interesting is that the hakama is not just a military garment. It's formal wear and includes many varieties of which the aikido hakama is just one. It seems to have strong associations with education. For example female schoolteachers in the Meiji era wore hakamas based on those worn in the Imperial court. That probably had very little to do with combat and a lot more to do with being a traditional form of smart clothing. A style called the onna-bakama was worn by female students in the Taisho era. You can also see them worn in shrines and on many formal occasions such as weddings and coming of age ceremonies. Music teachers often wear hakama when teaching traditional instruments and at a graduation ceremony I attended on Sunday, all of the female sensei with graduating classes wore hakama.

I was asked to wear an andon-hakama (without the divided legs) late last year while presenting a moon-viewing party for international students in Mito. They all seem to promote "strong hara" and give an authoritative image (I got told I was "shibui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibui)" while wearing the andon-hakama by the way). In Japanese culture, romantic notions like go-rin (the five morals of Confucianism) are often associated with the five front pleats while chū-kō (loyalty and fidelity) get assigned to the box-pleat at the back. (By the way, the onna-bakama my colleagues wore had four pleats at the back, but I suspect that that had something to do with the bustle of the kimono obi underneath -- or maybe women are more virtuous than men).

It's interesting to see how the hakama fits into Japanese culture and aikido in particular. A sensei once told me that the hakama is worn for other people to see so I'd go with whatever fits the learning environment. Depending upon the level of formality and the culture in your dojo, the hakama could even have no pleats like this one…

http://flypaper.bluefly.com/MCHammer.jpg
STOP! …Hakama time!

jacksharp73
03-08-2008, 01:23 AM
well i quite aikido,im tired of the division,im goin back to KARATE, atleast there i can train for advanacement in technique and rank and not train for some pants that some people have put WAY to much on.remember what the Osensei said "aikido is for everyone". well not if the fairness and equallity he preached is warped for someones vanity!belts are belts and pants are pants! when i was in tokyo i went to a judo dojo and those folkd called themslves players.sure there was senority but the whole ranking thing had no bearing on them atall!i had soooo much fun,however it is hard to have fun when there is the pretension of hey your dressed wrong! like i said I QUITE AIKIDO BECAUSE OF MY EXPERIENCES WITH 5 DOJO'S AND NONE WHERE CONSISTENT WITH THE OTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jacksharp73
03-08-2008, 01:29 AM
If You Are Gonna Do It,do It Right! Make The Rules Universal.!!!! That Way There Is Peace Love And Harmony,not,segregation, Vanity And Ill Will.one World One Rule One Word..........peace

Bronson
03-08-2008, 02:44 AM
one World One Rule One Word..........

Fascism?

Bronson

Nafis Zahir
03-08-2008, 04:30 AM
I think that the hakama helps to improve your posture, among other things.

The white keikogi and the black hakama meet at the center. From the center and downward is the flow that gives you balance and stability, illustrated by the hakama, and from the center and up is what you create, such as aikido techniques, illustrated by the white keikogi.

So the white and the black are like heaven and earth, and your center is in the very middle of that universe.

Also, as many others have said - it looks cool :)

I'm still waiting for them to come out with the Hakama that has velcro straps that you don't have to tie! I hope the sound of the velcro doesn't bother too many people! LOL!!!

Keith Larman
03-08-2008, 08:50 AM
well i quite aikido,...

All because you *couldn't* wear your precious hakama in a dojo that reserves them for higher ranks? It seems to me the ego and vanity are firmly and solely yours.

Jennifer Yabut
03-08-2008, 08:34 PM
well i quite aikido,im tired of the division,im goin back to KARATE, atleast there i can train for advanacement in technique and rank and not train for some pants that some people have put WAY to much on.r

WHOA...hold it right there. If I recall correctly, *you* were the one who was complaining about not being able to wear your hakama at a certain dojo, because you didn't have the required rank. So who *really* is the one who is placing too much stock into wearing a hakama?

And what makes you think that karate (which is a *broad* term for several different striking arts) is less divided? Not to mention how many folks place WAY too much emphasis on colored belts.

No matter which art you choose to train in, you *will* have to follow rules that you may *not* like. And you will also find that different schools have different rules - even within the same style.

Chris Lacey
03-08-2008, 10:12 PM
Hyperinflated bellies, too... :D

B,
R

It's not hyperinflated....I am inhaling.....really... :D

ramenboy
03-09-2008, 06:27 PM
All because you *couldn't* wear your precious hakama in a dojo that reserves them for higher ranks? It seems to me the ego and vanity are firmly and solely yours.

seems that's pretty much it.

all because he couldn't wear a skirt he swore he could care less about.

good luck on your endeavors in other martial arts.

please don't "quite" them too, if a dojo tells you you can't wear a coloured belt belt until you've achieved one. although i've heard there are some schools that actually only wear a white belt until you've achieved shodan. uh oh..... :P

lbb
03-11-2008, 05:35 AM
well i quite aikido,im tired of the division,im goin back to KARATE, atleast there i can train for advanacement in technique and rank and not train for some pants that some people have put WAY to much on.
If I were to go back and start training again at my old karate dojo, I'd be wearing a white belt until sensei told me otherwise. In the meantime, no doubt I'd have to put up with a certain number of people who joined after I left treating me as a newb. Just to let you know, so you don't get any rude shocks when you go back to KARATE.

Jennifer Yabut
03-11-2008, 10:01 AM
please don't "quite" them too, if a dojo tells you you can't wear a coloured belt belt until you've achieved one. although i've heard there are some schools that actually only wear a white belt until you've achieved shodan. uh oh..... :P

Coming from a Tae Kwon Do background myself, it took me some time adjusting to the whole "everyone's a white belt until shodan" concept. I couldn't figure out how folks knew who was "sempai" amongst the kyu ranks. After spending some time training, I found that one instinctively...knows...who is "senior" - simply by watching how the other executes techniques, takes ukemi, etc. Now...I prefer just having white and black belts. If anything else, it saves me the extra expense of buying a new colored belt after every test... ;) :p

SentWest
03-12-2008, 01:22 PM
One thing I find interesting is that the hakama is not just a military garment. It's formal wear and includes many varieties of which the aikido hakama is just one.

Good that you brought this up. Hakama arguments seem somewhat like necktie arguments. Sometimes the bottom line comes down to "I dunno, it's just what's worn."

I think both hakama and neckties are rather cool looking, and I'll stand by that argument when all else fails.

ramenboy
03-12-2008, 01:45 PM
...After spending some time training, I found that one instinctively...knows...who is "senior" - simply by watching how the other executes techniques, takes ukemi, etc...


hey jen, i came from tkd myself! in fact, our dojo was the exact place i 'd studied years earlier!

anyways, i guess our dojo is one of the few that actually does have coloured belts. its just something our chief instructor put into place. there was a short time after he passed away that we did go to all white except for yudansha, and the big argument from many members was how they'd know who was what rank...well, if you were a member, you'd know from practicing with the other members. and if you were a visitor, again, you'd know either by how we lined up, or by practicing. kind of a mute argument.

but you nailed it on the head. the rank isn't in the colour of the belt, so to speak, its in the caliber of that person's aikido. or karate. or krav maga, or jujutsu, or whatever...

wideawakedreamer
03-17-2008, 11:00 PM
All because you *couldn't* wear your precious hakama in a dojo that reserves them for higher ranks? It seems to me the ego and vanity are firmly and solely yours.

:D lol he quit because he couldn't wear his hakama until he got a higher rank? Sounds pretty childish to me.

erikmenzel
03-21-2008, 08:13 AM
I like wearing a hakama so that is good enough an excuse to me.

I know there several ways to put it on but the one way that always amazed me the most is the way where the straps are wrapped around the belt in such a way that the colour of the belt is obviously and very visible...and I never saw someone wearing a white belt doing this...go figure

Ron Tisdale
03-21-2008, 01:20 PM
I don't know, I intertwine my himo so that the belt helps to hold the darn thing up. I make no claims to this being a traditional way to wear the darn thing...it just stops it from dropping down around my ankles! :eek: Believe me...nobody wants to see that!

Best,
Ron :D

erikmenzel
03-21-2008, 04:36 PM
Yeah, I know what you mean, I also wrap the himo around my belt.

However on seminars I sometimes see people that have their hakama tide around their belt such that the ends of their belt realy real realy stick out (wearing a big sign with the text "look I have a black belt" in neon letters would probably be the next step in subtilety).

Anyway back on topic: One reason I like wearing the hakama and all other kinds of japanese things is because in using them I have a kind of ritual that allows me to leave the worries and thoughts of everyday life in the dressing room and help my focus on nothing but the training during training. Maybe I am weird in that , then so be it but I dont want my dojo to be normal everyday life...certain things I wanna leave behind before entering and focus on the "dojo-y" things (hmm I think I just invented a new word..dojo-y...anyone with a better alternative please let me know)

Ron Tisdale
03-22-2008, 01:51 PM
I'm right there with you on that one, Erik.

Today I headed to morning keiko, got a call from my finance about an idiot at pep boys who was giving her a hard time, diverted to clean up that mess, then headed back to keiko. After keikio I had a WAN upgrade in another state (working on the back up over frame relay now), so I had a lot on my mind and was late to boot.

The ritual of getting changed enabled me to settle and get back on track.

Best,
Ron

dragonteeth
03-26-2008, 12:19 PM
In my old dojo, I had to wear a hakama. In my new one, I wear one for iaido, then take it off for the aikido practice immediately afterwards. Do I feel naked without it? Yes. Can I tell a difference in my movement, especially my footwork? Yes. But is it worth going without the hakama to train with this particular teacher at this particular time? Definitely yes!

Besides, if by some chance I ever have to do this "in real life" I probably won't be wearing my hakama, so maybe it's good for me to train a while without it.

Sad thing is now I have to go buy another one even though I'm wearing it less. My aiki-koshita gets in the way of some iaido movements (sayabiki), so it's time to get a regular one. 3rd kyu will come soon enough, but it's into the mothballs with this one for now.

mriehle
03-26-2008, 06:39 PM
I'm still waiting for them to come out with the Hakama that has velcro straps that you don't have to tie! I hope the sound of the velcro doesn't bother too many people! LOL!!!

http://www.newschoolaikido.com/hakama.php

:D

mriehle
03-26-2008, 06:40 PM
It's not hyperinflated....I am inhaling.....really... :D

Well, mine is Ki Storage. :p