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Anonymous
01-21-2008, 03:21 PM
Person A has serious reasons, not to be touched by person B, so she's not able, to train with him anymore. Would this be possible in wour dojo, or would she have to train with everybody or leave ?

SeiserL
01-21-2008, 04:02 PM
You would have permission to train with who you want. If there was a problem I would want to be informed. But, no one, in or out of the dojo, should be allowed to touch you without your expressed permission.

Anonymous
01-21-2008, 04:21 PM
I really hope, that my Sensei thinks the same way. I didn't dare to talk to him by now, because I don't want to tell him details. I want to go back to the dojo, but it is not very easy.

Janet Rosen
01-21-2008, 04:25 PM
In most dojo I've been member of, while it is ok to not partner w/ somebody, SOME kind of explanation to the chief instructor would be expected for refusing to partner w/ an individual. However, I would hope that simply saying "I don't feel safe training with that person" followed by "I'd prefer not to go into details:"would suffice.
Note that some instructors however, feeling very responsible for what goes on in their dojo, would ask for more detail to make sure that the individual in question was not also posing a threat to other members besides you, and that is a valid concern for an instructor.

Anonymous
01-21-2008, 04:37 PM
I've talked to some friends about what happened, and everybody told me, that this man would be so dangerous for me, that I should stay far, far, far away from him.
He did abuse me sexually (oral) and most of all behaved like a complete disturbed (crazy ? sorry for my english), as if he where not himself and had not even contact to that "other" person and where not responsible for him.
He is my Sempai, I know him for nearly three years now, always trusted him absolutely and I cannot believe, that the short-time-monster is more important than my "old" Sempai. So I want him to explain, what it all was about. So, I THINK he is dangerous for every female person, but I FEEL that this is not true.

Anonymous
01-21-2008, 05:22 PM
He is a danger for people and himself, has been banned from the dojo for 6 months (for threatening somebody) and came back recently. But aikido is for educating people who have problems with violence, isn't it ? what he did to me, was outside the dojo and I still can't understand it. So I really don't know, if there is danger for me - surely not on the mat.

Angela Dunn
01-21-2008, 05:35 PM
I am going to throw my own thoughts into this arena and say if your not comfortable training with person B then do not. If your Sensei knows the circumstances around what happened and why you do not wish to train with him then he should respect that. I would just have a quick chat with him, after all if he was banned before then I assume he does know the circumstances around it.

I would like to think if this did come up then a solution could be reached. If you really do not want to train with person B then don't.

Laurel Seacord
01-21-2008, 05:45 PM
If you cannot tell the chief instructor the reason in detail why you cannot train with this person, I STRONGLY suggest you confide in someone else you can trust in the dojo. If you remain in the dojo with this person, whether you allow him to touch you or not, you run the risk of condoning his actions. By telling someone else you have at least taken some action on your behalf and on behalf of the other women training there.

Fred Little
01-21-2008, 05:49 PM
He is a danger for people and himself, has been banned from the dojo for 6 months (for threatening somebody) and came back recently. But aikido is for educating people who have problems with violence, isn't it ? what he did to me, was outside the dojo and I still can't understand it. So I really don't know, if there is danger for me - surely not on the mat.

There are never enough facts in anonymous inquiries like this to enable anyone reading to give much in the way of a useful response, and additional facts tend to make the inquiry increasingly less anonymous.

That said, I would observe the following:

Aside from the fact that very few dojo operators are trained psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, or certified social workers.....

Someone asked him to leave and someone let him back in.

Someone has implicitly taken responsibility for him.

You should talk with that someone directly. Information regarding your experience outside the dojo may change that individual's view of the situation. Or it may not.

But observing the way that individual deals with the information you provide and deals with your concerns will go a long way to letting you know whether this dojo is the right place for you.

If you don't feel you can talk with that individual, that tells you something important too.

Good luck,

FL

FL

Anonymous
01-21-2008, 06:10 PM
It's only because I don't want to tell any man details and the dojocho (who IS a psychologist) once mentionend, that in a case of rape there is always the woman 100% responsible (not guilty, but responsible). Although in my case it's not rape, but "only" other form of sexual abuse, I somehow don't want to discuss my mistakes.
I am kind of responsible, of course, but I could never foresee that my Sempai, in whom I trusted so much, would behave that way. He was like he were not himself.
I'm also afraid, that Sensei may ban him again, because I think, Person B is the only person who can undo what happened and change it into something like a nightmare, that I can simply forget.

Anonymous
01-21-2008, 06:15 PM
I have got some technical problems with writing here (need to log in new every time), so maybe two posts, that I have written, may appear in the wrong order (a moderator has to read them first). I wait until they are here.

Kevin Leavitt
01-21-2008, 07:12 PM
He is a danger for people and himself, has been banned from the dojo for 6 months (for threatening somebody) and came back recently. But aikido is for educating people who have problems with violence, isn't it ?

Yes and no. IMO, A dojo is not responsible for rehabilitating people nor is a place to "experiment" with people. As Mr. Little said, most are not run by Psychiatric or Medical Doctors that specialize in this field. Even if you have such an individual, it is not a clinic, nor is it a place for treatment.

It is a place where people should be able to come and train safely without concern for their safety or health. If a member of the dojo poses a risk to anyone, and it is identified, then it must be properly dealt with and mitigated.

Yes, it is a place for sane and stable people to come together to better understand violence. it may even help those with bad temperment, and those that are prone to emotional and physical outburst. However, if they ever are considered to pose a danger to the health and welfare of others, then they should not practice there. There is a clear line between having feelings and issues, and acting on them uncontrollably.

If a professional thinks that aikido is good therapy, then he/she should start his/her own "support/therapy" group that is composed of people that williingly place themselves in that environment as "assistants" to the professional, or as "patients". The environment should be controlled as a clinc or support group.

A normal dojo is not such a place, IMO.

Joseph Madden
01-21-2008, 08:23 PM
If this "person B" has a history of violence ie: threatening somebody and "person B" been allowed to return to the dojo....leave the dojo. It's obvious from what you've mentioned that you are frightened of this person and from the evidence gathered from your statements, your instructor is not really interested in dealing with the problem. If your sensei is not the heart and mind of his dojo on this level alone, leave his dojo and seek enlightenment and training elsewhere.

edshockley
01-21-2008, 09:21 PM
In a perfect world, each practitioner would leave worldly thoughts in a little pile just off to the left when they bow upon entering a dojo. They might even, in a perfect world, forget to pick up that little pile of neuroses when they bow to leave the dojo. This is not yet a perfect world and so, as many people have said, we assess our part in the situation and make training choices that preserve our health and honor the sacred training space. Everyone who trains for any length of time will encounter some disagreeable and/or dangerous partner. How we respond to this situation is another key lesson in the way of harmony. Good luck and good judgement.

Janet Rosen
01-22-2008, 12:47 AM
If person B's return is based on faulty information (he is "better" and not a threat) then the instructor giving the ok for his return is basing that ok on faulty info.
Frankly, I think as a member of the dojo community it is your responsibility to give the instructor the information he needs.
If you do not feel that much a part of the dojo community then perhaps you would consider whether it would be best for you to train elsewhere - not because person B is there, but because you don't feel enfranchised by the instructor or dojo culture enough to feel as valuable or more valuable than person B.

SeiserL
01-22-2008, 07:48 AM
IMO, A dojo is not responsible for rehabilitating people nor is a place to "experiment" with people. As Mr. Little said, most are not run by Psychiatric or Medical Doctors that specialize in this field. Even if you have such an individual, it is not a clinic, nor is it a place for treatment.
As one of those trained in both arts (martial and psychological). training is not treatment. If the individual was asked to leave but is back, and you choose not to train with them, the Sensei will probably already know why.

And, the best way to understand why people do what they do, its a statement of who they are, not who you are. Don't take it personally.

Now get back on the mat and don't let other's problems interrupt or interfere with you training.

Trish Greene
01-22-2008, 01:24 PM
It's only because I don't want to tell any man details and the dojocho (who IS a psychologist) once mentionend, that in a case of rape there is always the woman 100% responsible (not guilty, but responsible). Although in my case it's not rape, but "only" other form of sexual abuse, I somehow don't want to discuss my mistakes.

This statement floors me. "in case of rape there is always the woman100% responsible (not guilty but responsible)."

I would urge you not to take the advise of the dojocho on this one. I know, as a woman, we are responsible for making sure we are in a safe environment, but you can't say we are 100% responsible for being raped. That is ludicrous.

Janet Rosen
01-22-2008, 01:30 PM
Your clarifying post didn't show up til after my last reply.
Find another dojo to train at - why would you want to train under a dojocho w/ that kind of attitude?

Michael Hackett
01-22-2008, 01:56 PM
Trish and Janet hit the nail on the head! What a load of crap. I'm sure your dojo cho has never interviewed a rape victim, in the ER or anywhere else. His logic eludes me; a woman exists, therefore she is responsible for everything that happens to her? Other than that, I can't see the thought progression. Please explain his rationale, if he shared it with you.

Ron Tisdale
01-22-2008, 02:15 PM
I find this thread very disturbing, and as Fred says, we cannot have enough information to give pertinent advice.

My off the cuff advice is to

a) seek counseling to deal with what you say happened to you

b) seek law enforcement to punish the person who did it

c) Unfortunately, if you have interpreted what the instructor said correctly, seek another dojo!

Best,
Ron

NagaBaba
01-22-2008, 02:49 PM
It's only because I don't want to tell any man details and the dojocho (who IS a psychologist) once mentionend, that in a case of rape there is always the woman 100% responsible (not guilty, but responsible). .
I hope that in your country not all men think like that :grr: If it is a case, change country.

And of course, change a dojo as fast as possible. If a chief instructor thinks like that it is not surprise, that his students behave badly. What a horror! :mad:

Ron Tisdale
01-22-2008, 02:55 PM
Mr. S speaks truth...AGAIN!

B,
R

Marc Abrams
01-22-2008, 03:44 PM
Like Lynn, I am a licensed psychologist and Aikido instructor. I cannot understand what the psychologist meant by 100% responsible. That sounds like a strange statement for a psychologist to make. Lynn's point that a dojo is not a therapeutic environment is one that all dojos should adhere to.

At my hombu dojo in NYC, we had mentally disturbed people training at our dojo (one called herself Steven Seagal's psychic wife!). A psychiatrist and myself were always talking about how wrong it was to allow actively psychotic people to be training. When I had the "pleasure" of serving as president of that dojo, I allowed one incident to be the basis for instituting the policy of not allowing seriously mentally ill people to be training. It was disruptive to the other students and the potential for the unexpected also kept people on edge.

Ron's advice was sound! If an act of sexual abuse happened, then it should be investigated. The head of the dojo should be made aware and that person should act appropriately by expelling anybody who intentionally abuses another member. The dojo atmosphere requires a great deal of trust in each other. I cannot imagine how that can be fostered in this situation.

If the head of the school does not do the right thing, I believe that you should seek training elsewhere.

Marc Abrams

ChrisMoses
01-22-2008, 03:52 PM
Chiming in with the chorus.

It's not only OK for you *not* to train with that person, (for clarity I'll refer to him as Filthy Slimeball) but it is *not* OK for him to train with anyone else at that dojo. No matter what the specific circumstances, he betrayed a very basic level of trust, one frankly far baser than those required to train safely in a dojo with other people. Filthy Slimeball should be banished.

If your instructor knows about this event and hasn't banished them (or beat Filthy Slimeball to a bloody pulp, then banished them) you shouldn't even consider going back. Given their wacky opinion on sexual assault, I'd say pack it up. A dojo is a place to study the way, not a treatment center.

:grr:

/mad face.

Anonymous
01-22-2008, 04:02 PM
I am quite sure, Sensei has no idea, how serious the emotional problems of that man are. I met him several times outside the dojo and would never have believed that. (I mean this strange "being not himself and having a different voice")
The problem with law enforcement is, that it is nearly impossible here that a man gets punished for things like that, if there are no witnesses and if - as in my case- the woman came into his flat voluntarely, it's simply "word against word" and so only 10% of the men, that are accused at a police station, have to go to court. And only another 10 % get a punishment.(I am sure it's the same in America, isn't it ? ).
I really think, I need to talk to Sensei. At the moment I am simply "running away" and worry about how he may react. I should rather try, how he reacts and then run away, if necessary.

Anonymous
01-22-2008, 04:13 PM
Oh, Christian posted faster than I did.
No, Sensei does not know anything about that ! I am really not sure, if "person B" has to be banned, because this happened outside the dojo.

Marc Abrams
01-22-2008, 05:14 PM
IT DOES NOT MATTER WHETHER THIS INCIDENT TOOK PLACE INSIDE OR OUTSIDE OF THE DOJO- IT WAS GROSSLY INAPPROPRIATE AND WRONG!

You both are students at the same school. You both are students inside and outside of the dojo. The respect for one another that exists inside of the dojo is not exclusive to the dojo. Your concern about how the police might handle it is genuine and should be considered in how you chose to handle the situation. At a minimum, the teacher should be told yesterday. The teacher has an obligation to the students. The teacher cannot act on that obligation if left in the dark.

Marc Abrams

ChrisMoses
01-22-2008, 05:26 PM
If you can't trust someone not to sexually assault other members of the dojo, how can you ever trust them to treat their training partners with respect on the mat?

Not OK,
Not open for discussion.

Beat to pulp, then ban.

Angela Dunn
01-22-2008, 05:33 PM
Not an expert, not qualified and not pretending to know exactly what your feeling and going through right now. But If you want someone who is away from the situation to rant at or talk things through with then I would be more than happy to be that person if you think it could help.

Unfortunately I to had a unwelcome and unexpected run in with a guy in my dojo (and a wake up call to this crazy little thing called the males of the species!). Different circumstances but was faced with the prospect of talking it through with my own Sensei.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12967&page=5
The post I made at the time and the wonderful help and support I got from this forums.

That thread may be of some help to you with regards to recommendations and useful links etc. I would also recommend reading a book called the gift of fear by Gavin De Becker, from your clarifying posts I can guess at what happened and think you may find that book helpful.

I would definitely find someone to discuss this with at your dojo. As the posts above say it was not appropriate behavior and yes your Sensei can do something about it, and really should for the safety and welfare of their other students. If you really can not face talking it through with a male, (although honestly they really are not all jerks and have opinions like your dojo cho and some can actually listen and help you through it) then is there a higher female grade you could tell and have accompany you when you do talk to him? Or someone who can talk to him on your behalf?

He does need to know what happened. If he was banned I can not understand why they are allowing him back, but if you talk to someone there then they can at least know why you are not comfortable around him. Honestly though I would not want to be in the same room as that person (Fortunately I did not have to be and I would be bricking it if I had to be, even now) and it certainly does not sound as though aikido is the right place for him to be training. As for going to the police, that is a very personal choice that only you alone can make but if you do go them make certain that you have people around you that can help and support you. You may also want to consider contacting a rape crisis center or similar organizations to. (Again no expert, just what I have been trained to say as part of voluntary work.)

Remember, what happened to you was not your fault. That guy did not respect you when you implied that it was not a situation you where not willing to engage in. Do not blame yourself for what happened.

Whatever happens and what you decide, well I for one wish the best of luck for the outcome. If you feel able to please let us know the outcome.

MikeLogan
01-23-2008, 12:07 AM
Most people I know, myself included, practice aikido as a means to protect ourselves, with some thought to spare the expense of unnecessary bodily harm to an attacker out of respect for their humanity. Your practice of aikido has led you to be attacked through your former sempai's abuse of your trust. That's should have been the opposite of your instructor's goals for both persons A and B.

It is obvious you can no longer interact with this guy on or off the mat as a matter of sincere defence of yourself. Are there other women in your dojo. Are they at risk of being lured to his flat? Do you feel any obligation to prevent some interaction between another woman and he that you have already experienced to be threatening?

From what you say it sounds as though you think you could have fared worse in the situation. Perhaps it's your culture to let men off easy, or for men to let other men off easy, or simply to be mentally resillient. And right now you may feel hesitant about grabbing the tiger's tail and telling sensei. If you don't have the community support to go about your daily life reasonably secure from some action of reprisal, then yes, I can understand a bit of the trouble you find yourself in. Be careful!I am really not sure, if "person B" has to be banned, because this happened outside the dojo.No, he doesn't have to be banned, he just has to be made to realize how much more likely 'accidents' may occur in his general direction.

Anonymous
01-23-2008, 10:05 AM
I dared to write an E-Mail and send it to Sensei. I really needed a long time for that. Don't know, how he will react, but at least now there is someone else in that dojo who knows, what was going on. Before that I felt that in a strange way I shared a secret with "person B".

Derek
01-24-2008, 08:54 AM
Just to add a thought...

I agree with what has been said about "slimeball boy." One aspect that is not being accepted by the victum and assumed by everyone else is that what happens off the mat impacts what happens on the mat. This needs to be stated more directly.

We speak of training in aikido and then "taking it with us" into the real world, but the opposite is true that you carry your sins with you. To me, it is not a given that a student who pays the fees should be allowed to train. Every student is a reflection on the dojo and the sensei. It they image they reflect is not what the dojo and the sensei wished reflected than they should not train. The "right" to train at a given dojo is really a privilege that can be taken away due to bad behavior, which this case seems to qualify for. Kick him to the curb.

RK from the Y
01-24-2008, 10:56 PM
[QUOTE=...But aikido is for educating people who have problems with violence, isn't it ?...[/QUOTE]

Where did you get this noble idea that aikido or any MA can educate or reform violent or overly aggressive people? These people have better chances of reform in a yoga or meditation class than in a dojo. Some go to the dojo to become better "fighters". Majority of these people who fantasize about fighting in the "real world" will somehow end up in an aikido dojo. They always "win" either as a nage or as an uke. They are not interested in the ethical context of the art. They do not buy into the spiritual size of the art. They will stop you in track if you bring up ethics or spiritualism. They will say, "Don't bring up O'Sensei. He is dead and gone and he was not my teacher".

Mind you, some of these guys are also instructors who see Aikido as a commodity that they can market. They will tell you about their marketing skill selling their brand of aikido to the "targeted" customers. They will brack about the number of dojo they operate and the number of students they have. Most of the students are spawns of the teachers; some of the most egotistical and arrogrant you will meet. They are right about having the right marketing plans.

Look around, you might be in one of these dojo.

Buyers beware!!

Regards

RK

Anonymous
01-25-2008, 03:58 PM
Where did you get this noble idea that aikido or any MA can educate or reform violent or overly aggressive people? These people have better chances of reform in a yoga or meditation class than in a dojo.

I think, it's as if you want to give medicine to a child, you need to mix it with some sugar. It's the same with some people. Yoga, Qigong, Dancing, Role play would be much better, but they are not interest in things, if there is nothing "martial" in them.

akiy
01-25-2008, 04:00 PM
Hi folks,

Please let's stay on-topic in regards to the original poster's topic. If you wish to discuss an off-topic subject, please start a new thread.

Thanks,

-- Jun

Anonymous
01-27-2008, 02:56 PM
Talked to Sensei today. He did believe me, He said, that things might have been less dramatic than I told him, but of course somehow dramatic and what B did was no good at all. He will talk to B first, then B, Sensei and I shall have a talk (that's the ususal way to solve conflicts). Then he will inform the other trainers and we'll try to find a way to make it possible for me, to take part in training without training with B. It's annoying for me, that Sensei somehow tells me, how I shall feel about this. He asked me, how I feel, but also told me, that it wouldn't be too bad for me, nothing I couldn't forget, since it was no rape and that surely counseling would be exaggerated. Well, he's a man, he cannot understand that this was not really something completely different from rape for me. At the moment B is doing Aikido every day, and I did'nt go to the dojo since weeks, because he is there.
I think I need to give up that dojo, but first I'm going to fight for my right, to be there as well.

Anonymous
01-27-2008, 03:07 PM
No, what I wrote, sounds a bit wrong: We talked a lot about B and how I and Sensei do feel about him. We both decided, that he is worth not to give him up (I did write that post about medicine and sugar). But I do feel, there are only two real possibilities for me: Either to train, and to train with B as well, or not to train at all. It's simply too difficult to organize that we don't partner up. I don't want everybody to know what happened, and it would be weird, if were in the same training lesson not partner up. Everybody would think or say: "Come on, you two go off the mat, talk and solve your problems".
Don't know, how Sensei will talk to B. I don't really believe, that B wants to talk to me in Senseis presence. If I really want to talk with him depends on how he reacts to Sensei and what he tells him.

gdandscompserv
01-27-2008, 04:07 PM
Find another dojo.

Walter Martindale
01-27-2008, 07:18 PM
Find another dojo.

You sound REALLY uncomfortable with the dojo you're in so I'll quote Ricky Wood....

Find Another Dojo.

Michael Hackett
01-27-2008, 09:03 PM
Dear Anonymous,

I don't know where you're from or your local culture, so I can only view your situation from my own perspective. Your teacher's comments suggest to me that you and your concerns are being discounted significantly. If he thinks your interest in counseling is "exaggerated" and that you're really OK because you weren't actually raped, then he is way off base, at least in my viewpoint.

Ricky Wood summed it up perfectly - leave and find another dojo. This isn't a healthy environment to train in. You may certainly have the right to train where you are, but what is the point? How can you possibly train with joy and confidence, knowing what you do about your own situation? Find a healthier place to train.

Best wishes.

RK from the Y
01-27-2008, 09:04 PM
..I did write that post about medicine and sugar). But I do feel, there are only two real possibilities for me: Either to train, and to train with B as well, or not to train at all. It's simply too difficult to organize that we don't partner up. I don't want everybody to know what happened, and it would be weird, if were in the same training lesson not partner up. Everybody would think or say: "Come on, you two go off the mat, talk and solve your problems".
Don't know, how Sensei will talk to B. I don't really believe, that B wants to talk to me in Senseis presence. If I really want to talk with him depends on how he reacts to Sensei and what he tells him.

As I have implied before, you could at the wrong place and wrong time to train considering the situations you were in and you are now. In chorus with the majority here, find other dojo to train. You would be in a better state of mind.

RK

MikeLogan
01-28-2008, 12:40 AM
That's pretty messed up, Anon, and if you want to be doing anything more significant than just swinging your arms around and falling down, I would say get out of there. For your teacher to have so little regard for your personal wellbeing, why should he have any regard for your ability to defend yourself. There doesn't seem much need for further discussion, hope you followup with some genuine counselling.

Peter Goldsbury
01-28-2008, 06:26 AM
Perhaps there is a cultural difference here, but I cannot imagine a situation in my own dojo, here in Hiroshima, where, as senior instructor (the 'Sensei'), I would ever allow any discrimination in training. In a normal training session there are 15 - 20 persons on the mat, usually with three instructors, so we would spot any problems immediately.

It is a given that every student has to be prepared to train seriously with every other student. It is also understood that an essential element of the training involves learning to cope with the idiosyncrasies of each student.]

I cannot understand why 'Sensei' does not 'see', in this case.

Angela Dunn
01-28-2008, 06:31 AM
On the possitive side you found the currage to tell someone and talked to your Sensei and for that I congratulate you. And your Sensei is at least trying to find a solution and a way to work things out. It's a shame that he has gone about it in a way that kind of disregards your feelings on the matter and his comments where insensative to the point I felt like slapping him on your behalf.

If your really not comfortable with the way things have worked out, and seriously who could blame you for that, then I think you may be best looking to train elsewhere. At least now your Sensei is aware and if he chooses to make the decision he has done, for whatever reason he has done, you know where you stand.

Try not to let you put this off other dojo's and training in the future though. If/when you do start training and it is elsewhere it may be worth mentioning what has happened and why you left your current dojo so they can be aware of that and ease you in gently.

Anonymous
01-28-2008, 07:34 AM
I cannot go to another dojo (there are some in our town, but they are too far away), so for me it is: this dojo or no Aikido at all.
Of course, that "solution" we've found, is no solution at all. For a conflict-solving talk there has to be a conflict both people want to solve - so where is B's conflict ? He can go training now, why should he take part in anything, that's not comfortable for him (like talking to me and Sensei) ?
Also we were wrong about my safety. We agreed, that Senseis action (confronting B) will not cause any threat for my safety, but weren't we stupid ? We thought about things like go to my place and hit me or something, but if B really wants to damage me, he can easily do so "by chance" when playing aikido with me.
The last word is not spoken yet, and Sensei, of course, has to think a lot about this and talk to the other peoples involved.
About the 100%-responsibility he told me, that of course the man is 100% responsible as well... His explanations didn't make really sense for me, but at least he does not say, it was all my fault.

Ron Tisdale
01-28-2008, 11:05 AM
**Sigh**...There is really nothing to think about. If "Sensei" believes you, his only principled action is to toss B out the door, preferrably to land on his head. That's it in a nutshell.

Doesn't matter so much what art you train if you are dedicated to training. Find another dojo.

Best,
Ron

gdandscompserv
01-28-2008, 11:13 AM
**Sigh**...There is really nothing to think about. If "Sensei" believes you, his only principled action is to toss B out the door, preferrably to land on his head. That's it in a nutshell.

Doesn't matter so much what art you train if you are dedicated to training. Find another dojo.

Best,
Ron
Ron is right. The art is much less important than the teacher. Visit some other budo dojo's.
Not training at all is a better option than training under the circumstances you have described.

Walter Martindale
01-29-2008, 02:12 AM
I cannot go to another dojo (there are some in our town, but they are too far away), so for me it is: this dojo or no Aikido at all.
(snip)


Sorry... I disagree - The current dojo is unacceptable.

I was recently told a "tale" of a former Olympic athlete who wanted to train - desperately. She took a bus from home, then walked for 30 minutes, then trained in a racing single scull for about 90 minutes, changed, walked, took the bus and THEN went to school. After school, she repeated the travel, training, travel, and got home at 9PM to study for the next day's school. That was school days. (She competed in 2 Olympics including 1984, won 34 national championships, and several international medals.
If you WANT IT badly enough, the other dojos aren't too far away. They'll take a lot of effort to get to. I would frankly get out of the current place and either into another Aikido dojo (if you want it that badly) or (as has been suggested above) take up another martial art...

W

Anonymous
01-29-2008, 04:22 AM
You are right, it would not be really impossible (hopefully this year I'll get a better job, then I could effort the more expensive dojo and train ticket), but I somehow feel as if someone had slaughtered my dog. Of course I could go and buy a new pet, even a more beautiful one, but it would not be the same at all.
This dojo community has been like a familiy to me and I found so very much healing there, that I really should try to leave without bitterness. There's not only Sensei and B, but also very nice people and very engaged junior trainers, who spended lots of effort and time to teach me, although I'm not talented at all. They really struggle to keep this dojo running, since their Sensei left town, it's not easy for them.
Now it's like a case of abuse in a real familiy: If neither B nor I do leave, the whole dojo would turn into an dysfunctional family with unhealthy secrets.
And of course, decisions are not for eternity. I can keep in touch with them and come back, when something changes.

ChrisMoses
01-29-2008, 11:51 AM
You are right, it would not be really impossible (hopefully this year I'll get a better job, then I could effort the more expensive dojo and train ticket), but I somehow feel as if someone had slaughtered my dog. Of course I could go and buy a new pet, even a more beautiful one, but it would not be the same at all.
This dojo community has been like a familiy to me and I found so very much healing there, that I really should try to leave without bitterness. ...

To be quite frank, the dog is dead. It would be best to mourn and move on. I really do understand the community that comes from a dojo. Those bonds (if real) should not be entirely dependent on your continued training. I have studied at and left several dojos. I still see some people from the first dojo I ever trained at almost daily. Others I see every week or so. Some of these people I still train with, others haven't trained with me in over a decade. We're still family however. I've spent more Thanksgivings with those folks than I have with my blood relatives (at least in the last 15 years or so). Those other people, the other members of your dojo family should also want Dirty Slimeball gone. If they don't feel the same way, they are not as good a friends as you may think that they are. This isn't the kind of thing that should be kept a secret. Tell your friends, they should insist that Dirty Slimball be removed from the community before this kind of thing happens to someone else. If none of your friends will come around to your side, you should really read this article. (http://ezinearticles.com/?Is-Your-Dojo-a-Cult?&id=892026) Many dojo (IMHO) develop VERY unhealthy relationships. Often the bonds formed in these situations are even stronger than in healthy dojo. That's why it's even more important to be aware of the actual situation.

Good luck.

Marc Abrams
01-29-2008, 02:23 PM
ANON:

You can choose your friends (you want them to feel like family), but you cannot choose your family (you want them to feel like friends)!

Trust is an indispensable part of genuine Aikido practice. There is simply no way for that trust to exist for you in your current dojo. You now lack full trust in the teacher and in that person. You are training in an art where people can easily get hurt. Without that level of trust and respect, the risks are far to great (in my opinion). This budo "family" is too dysfunctional and too risky.

For you, there is no "good" solution. The safest solution is simply to stop training at this dojo. Your teacher had an opportunity to instill the necessary boundaries that result in a high level of trust amongst the students and the teachers. The teacher's actions, as well-intended as they might be, did not accomplish what should be a necessary condition in training.

If the added costs of training at a new dojo curtail the amount of training that you would like to do, then practice on your own for now. Your safety should be a paramount concern. Allowing that dysfunction to continue to fester by allowing the teacher's "solution" to occur is simply too great a risk that you should have to take.

Best of Luck & Stay Safe!

Marc Abrams

Ron Tisdale
01-29-2008, 03:22 PM
I don't think anyone else has mentioned this yet...

How much risk do your fellow female training partners face from this man? Your current teacher is willing to risk this happening to other students???!!! :grr: evileyes :crazy:

B,
R

Anonymous
01-29-2008, 04:13 PM
I will inform the other female students, before I leave. At the moment there is no danger for other woman, since there are only very few of them and all of them are married/have boyfriends, so they won't go to his flat.
My teacher somehow tried to convince me (no: to convince HIMSELF), that nothing really bad has happened. But at least he knows, what was going on, so if a new woman starts training, he hopefully will feel in charge to protect her. He even said, that he had thought about warning me, when he realized first (months ago), that there was some attraction between B and me. Well, I would not have believed him...
I still wish my "old" Sempai back, but I do know, it's impossible for me to ever trust him again as uke. Even if he would not try to hurt me, I know, that an injury would be an advantage for him. That's poison enough to cause accidents.

ChrisMoses
01-29-2008, 04:33 PM
He even said, that he had thought about warning me, when he realized first (months ago), that there was some attraction between B and me.

What exactly would he have been warning you about? This thing just stinks worse all the time. I frankly wouldn't let anyone train with me that I would feel the need to warn any of my other students about. Messed up.

Anonymous
01-29-2008, 05:22 PM
I think, he would only have told me, that I shall not trust in B, that he would hurt ma feelings. In fact, some of the Sempai DID warn me several times, but I didn't listen.
Sensei (the other Sensei) even told me:"B has the potential of a killer, he is a danger, mostly for himself, but also for others. Not on the mat - not at all, but off the mat. I don't want to have this potential of aggression in this dojo. That man is going to get shot out there, if he does not change !"

Anonymous
01-29-2008, 05:30 PM
Once I complained, that B did not help me, although he had promised to do so, and a Sempai told me:"Look, Anon, I DO love B, I love him very much, without any limits. but if it is about something important, it would never be B that I ask for help."
Another one told me: "He is not at all able to lead a relationship. If he has a girlfriend, it's impossible, that it lasts for long."
Stupid me didn't listen to them.
You do not know this man: Everybody - not only women -is fascinated by him. I do believe, it's the same with Sensei. he has not been hurt by him up to now, so he still does not believe, that B could really hurt anyone - I felt exactly the same way about him before this happened.

Marc Abrams
01-29-2008, 08:43 PM
Anon:

What you are describing is the typical profile of a predator. Luring the victim in and then trying to exert power to get what he wants. Christian's comment should be well taken. Your teacher is speaking with his theoretical head up his sphincter. If a person is bad, "universal/unconditional love" is absurd. It certainly has nothing to do with Aikido. Let me give you an analogy. That would be like saying that I have universal love for that melanoma growing on my skin, so that the love with heal me :crazy: It simply needs to be removed, like that predator in your dojo. With that dirt ball, I would suggest a clean separation between C1 & C2!

I frankly think that a group of us should come and train at your school. You can sell spectator tickets in advance. Money raised could help offset the greater costs training at a saner dojo.

Marc Abrams

James Davis
01-30-2008, 11:45 AM
I frankly think that a group of us should come and train at your school. You can sell spectator tickets in advance. Money raised could help offset the greater costs training at a saner dojo.

Marc Abrams

Road Trip!

Jennifer Yabut
01-31-2008, 03:13 PM
I think, he would only have told me, that I shall not trust in B, that he would hurt ma feelings. In fact, some of the Sempai DID warn me several times, but I didn't listen.
Sensei (the other Sensei) even told me:"B has the potential of a killer, he is a danger, mostly for himself, but also for others. Not on the mat - not at all, but off the mat. I don't want to have this potential of aggression in this dojo. That man is going to get shot out there, if he does not change !"

I bolded the last part of your statement for emphasis. So let me get this straight

Your sensei already KNEW about slimeball's "dangerous" tendencies - and yet ALLOWED him to train? Which not just put YOU in danger, but also the rest of the female students? It doesn't matter if the other students have spouses or are otherwise "taken". A sexual predator does NOT care about such details. What he did to you was a CRIME; has he ever been reported to the police? And WHY is your sensei even allowing him to continue training at that dojo...completely scott-free?

You need to decide for yourself if the relationships you built is worth the lack of safety you currently feel - and your sensei's apparent lack of empathy.

Anonymous
01-31-2008, 04:07 PM
No, no, he has not been violent against women in the past. And in the dojo nor "really" violent against men. He has been reported to the police (and got punished by the court) for other things (betrayal), not for violence. It's more a strange, hard to describe "aura" around him, that can be very scary. Usually he is very nice, very charming, friendly, a good person, nice to talk to, nice to be with him, wonderful to train with. But he has also a dark side, that you sometimes (very seldom) can see for a short time. He has a lot of temperament, is very large, of enormous strength and a very well trained martial artist. There are other men of his size/strength at the dojo, but they don't have this "odour" of potential danger. I could describe it better in my own language. It's as if there were something in him, that is so very strange, not really evil, but strange, that no one can have contact with this part, not even he himself.
But these are only feelings. Maybe they are wrong and very unfair against him.

Pauliina Lievonen
01-31-2008, 07:38 PM
Anonymous, that kind of feelings are very important. You should always listen to yourself if you have a feeling like that about a person.
Obviously on some level you weren't fooled.

Really bad people can be very charming, too.

Pauliina

Jennifer Yabut
01-31-2008, 10:40 PM
No, no, he has not been violent against women in the past. And in the dojo nor "really" violent against men. He has been reported to the police (and got punished by the court) for other things (betrayal), not for violence. It's more a strange, hard to describe "aura" around him, that can be very scary. Usually he is very nice, very charming, friendly, a good person, nice to talk to, nice to be with him, wonderful to train with. But he has also a dark side, that you sometimes (very seldom) can see for a short time. He has a lot of temperament, is very large, of enormous strength and a very well trained martial artist. There are other men of his size/strength at the dojo, but they don't have this "odour" of potential danger. I could describe it better in my own language. It's as if there were something in him, that is so very strange, not really evil, but strange, that no one can have contact with this part, not even he himself.
But these are only feelings. Maybe they are wrong and very unfair against him.

Wait a second...now you're *defending* him? If everything between you and him is perfectly fine, you wouldn't have made several posts concerning his behavior, wouldn't you? And you certainly wouldn't have asked your sensei to intervene on your behalf - even though your sensei "appeared" to have "minimalized" your feelings.

He may not have been physically "violent" against women per say, but judging by what you have shared, it sounds like he has a LONG history of being sexually INAPPROPRIATE with women (including you). That is just as serious - if not even more so, since sexual assault leaves deep psychological wounds that could take a lifetime to heal.

Then again, I don't know all the facts; just what you have shared. However, the little you have shared about the situation implies that this fellow should NOT be trusted - and certainly should NOT continue to train with you...or anyone else...PERIOD. If what you are saying is true - and your sensei is choosing to trivialize your bad experiences with this guy - you would seriously need to sit down and figure out for yourself if all this trauma is really worth it.

Don't completely disregard what your intuition may be telling you.

James Davis
02-01-2008, 11:45 AM
Wait a second...now you're *defending* him?

In my limited experience, I've seen this happen in situations like these way too often. Sometimes, people do terrible things, and we shouldn't try to rationalize it or heap blame upon ourselves when some half-wit does us harm.

Sometimes, we put ourselves in dangerous situations, and it becomes a question of whether we love ourselves enough to get safe, whatever it takes.

Jennifer Yabut
02-01-2008, 12:08 PM
In my limited experience, I've seen this happen in situations like these way too often. Sometimes, people do terrible things, and we shouldn't try to rationalize it or heap blame upon ourselves when some half-wit does us harm.

Sometimes, we put ourselves in dangerous situations, and it becomes a question of whether we love ourselves enough to get safe, whatever it takes.

I've also seen this happen WAY too many times as a social worker, and with some of my friends as well. I may not know the whole story in this particular case, but from the little she shared, it is more than alarming.

Marc Kupper
02-02-2008, 04:03 AM
No, no, he has not been violent against women in the past. And in the dojo nor "really" violent against men. He has been reported to the police (and got punished by the court) for other things (betrayal), not for violence. It's more a strange, hard to describe "aura" around him, that can be very scary. Usually he is very nice, very charming, friendly, a good person, nice to talk to, nice to be with him, wonderful to train with. But he has also a dark side, that you sometimes (very seldom) can see for a short time. He has a lot of temperament, is very large, of enormous strength and a very well trained martial artist. There are other men of his size/strength at the dojo, but they don't have this "odour" of potential danger. I could describe it better in my own language. It's as if there were something in him, that is so very strange, not really evil, but strange, that no one can have contact with this part, not even he himself. But these are only feelings. Maybe they are wrong and very unfair against him.

Dear Anonymous - Earlier you wrote "He did abuse me sexually (oral) ..." If you are under the age of consent, or were not a completely willing participant, then it's rape. Maybe in your country it does not meet the legal definition of rape but that's what it's called.

Your sensei appears unwilling to support you in dealing with someone that's raped you, has this "odour" of potential danger, and also from what you have described, is a predator.

Trust is a very important part of training and the foundation of trust comes from your own feelings. If you were to meet someone and had the "feeling" that something is wrong then trust yourself. Right now it seems there are at least two people in the dojo, your sensei, and B, that you can not trust to keep you safe.

You need to leave - save your money, keep in contact with people at the dojo you care about, let them know what happened so they can look out for any women that join the dojo, and some day you can train again. Ideally, "B" gets kicked out of the dojo and you can resume training there.

Marc

Janet Rosen
02-04-2008, 01:12 AM
B sounds like a classic sociopath: charming, fascinating, amoral, manipulative, and turns dangerous on a dime when it seems safe to do so. Normally such a person WOULD be respectful of those in power, such as sensei, in order to get along.
The words and actions of your sensei speak volumes. GET OUT OF THAT DOJO NOW.

boyana
02-15-2008, 09:03 PM
GET OUT OF THAT DOJO NOW!
All the best in the future!

mari
02-19-2008, 01:02 PM
This is a very touchy subject but i strongly feel that you should tell your Sensei. He should know what is happening in his dojo, specially such behavior from a senior student, or anybody for that matter.

Me personally - i'd break his hands unintentionally nikkyo style and I wouldn't have to face the guy for a long while… I hope never to be in a situation, where I will have to make such a decision but if I do, I hope i have the gutts to do just what i said.

Will Prusner
02-19-2008, 03:10 PM
Me personally - i'd break his hands unintentionally nikkyo style and I wouldn't have to face the guy for a long while… I hope never to be in a situation, where I will have to make such a decision but if I do, I hope i have the gutts to do just what i said.

ehhhh.... yeah, but...

He has a lot of temperament, is very large, of enormous strength and a very well trained martial artist.

Maybe less guts, and more strategy would produce a more desirable result. Please don't take this as an attack. Just a personal observation that "force on force" confrontations are usually inefficient and potentially dangerous to all parties involved.:)

Ron Tisdale
02-19-2008, 03:24 PM
And I personally know people who eat that kind of thing up like candy. I saw someone thrown by a 7th dan once (after some shennangans [sp])...that fall would likely have killed me. Doncha know that bozo just jumped right back up and was ready for more?? {shrug}

Some of the worst offenders actually are tough guys. That's why it's up to the instructor to set the tune. In some cases, the tune is to Hit the Road, Jack.

Best,
Ron

eric_lecaptain
02-19-2008, 07:21 PM
This is a very touchy subject but i strongly feel that you should tell your Sensei. He should know what is happening in his dojo, specially such behavior from a senior student, or anybody for that matter.

Me personally - i'd break his hands unintentionally nikkyo style and I wouldn't have to face the guy for a long while… I hope never to be in a situation, where I will have to make such a decision but if I do, I hope i have the gutts to do just what i said.

sounds like her sensei already knows what's happening.
if law enforcement wont help then perhaps several friends with baseball bats can...
sicko's that prey on women only learn one way. the hard way.

boyana
02-26-2008, 12:03 AM
Yes I do like several friends with basebal bats!

Kaze0180
03-10-2008, 02:23 PM
I am curious as to the outcome of this. Looking at it from an instructors POV and a business owners POV, no sexual activity should be tolerated in relation to the dojo. This is why companies have a no dating policy, because of questionable situations like this. I think dojo's should have a similar approach, and have a non-dating policy. People go there to train in a professional environment; if things go bad, illegal, or abusive, the dojo as a business/school is associated with this crime. It should not be tolerated and should be dealt with quickly, you do not want something like this looming over a school or a business. It will shy people away in fear of that happening to them.

If this person was put on probation, he must have done something serious. In that case, it was at the risk of the instructor to let him back. Knowing that he is up to something again should be a red flag to terminate his membership permanently. It is bad for the dojo to carry that student, and the student should be spending his time in therapy to cope with his sexual abuse. If all else fails, jail.

I hope you told the instructor. The student should not be allowed to use the dojo for his poaching grounds on victims, and it will be disappointing to your training if you can no longer train there because of the association of Aikido to this person. All in all, it is bad to keep this person in training at the dojo.

-Alexander

erikmenzel
03-21-2008, 06:17 AM
I dont know about others but if such a problem would arise in our dojo I as one of the "seniors" would toss the person out personaly. I am responsible for the safety of my fellow aikidoka as well. I will not allow anyone to threaten or intimidate my training partners and as "senior" I will carry the burden of responsibility.
If you wanna train in our dojo you follow the rules. If you cannt follow the rules or arent willing to follow the rules then you are free to leave (either voluntarily or assisted).

Anonymous
04-23-2008, 09:12 AM
What is it about this topic, that drives everybody half crazy ? Even people on AikiWeb start talking about beating up people for punishment. Of course this would not be right.
Well, the outcome of this: Stupid me behaved like a good boxer. Dont't stop fighting, until they really knock you out.
I went on training there. Being in one room with B scared me stiff at first. He seemed to be sorry, was very friendly and stayed far away from me, only once we had to partner up (teacher told us), he then performed all techniqes nearly without touching me at all. Sensei A (the one I had talked to) in his class took care, that we didn't have to partner up. So in his classes things started to be ok.
I

Anonymous
04-23-2008, 09:14 AM
I make a long story short, there were more discussions between me and Sensei A, but he behaved so strange, that I didn't understand his point of view, until it was too late for me. So I talked to Sensei B, we decided, that I leave the dojo for two months and we keep in touch and look for a solution in this time. After he had telephoned with Sensei A he told me, we (all teachers and I) should meet the following week and have a long talk about what has happened. He said, Sensei A cannot decide on his own.
Well, two days later Sensei A phoned me up to tell me, that the three teachers are very angry with me and throw me out of the dojo (forever, not only for 6 months like B before)., because I made such a fuss, took too much space,spreaded rumours, told people about my "sexual life" ("what else is it, when you go to his flat") .

anonymous
04-23-2008, 09:16 AM
Because "so many people now know about this" (this is not true, by the way. I told only one woman, and three members heard a little bit of my discussion with Sensei B). So, because of that, they feel, I had forced them to act - to throw out B - and he don't think much of throwing out only one person in such cases. For the future they tell me to think a lot about "responsibility". I was responsible for going in B's flat, and it was very wrong to complain about it afterwards. Sensei A also said, I should never again tell anybody he would blame the victim - impudence ! He would never do so ! At the very end of our conversation he then asked "what exactly DID happen in that flat ?" - I then realized that he really managed, not to understand me in our first conversation. He said, this was a case of completed sexual duress (right word?), I should go to the police and also talk a lot about it in a therapy.

Anonymous
04-23-2008, 09:19 AM
I am sooo furious, not because they throw me out - it's better for their harmony, I know, but because of this absolute crazy mixture of things Sensei told me (and believes them himself ? How can wou believe two opposite things at the same time ?). I am very sure, which part of all that he is telling the other Senseis.

PS: to the moderator:
I am sorry, I cannot send long text in one message, could you please put them together in the right order (the first part is already in the forum) ?

dalen7
04-25-2008, 03:15 PM
take some time and breathe.

what does this mean?

Leave the dojo...even if you call the dojo your family, leave it...take some "you time".

Mediate, listen to someone like Eckhart Tolle, etc., who can help bring back some stability and perspective in the way your outlook on life is. - Its good to have an anchor and his philosophy is quite practical. ;)

Sometimes we can 'over-think' things...if you know what I mean.
So you may find it helpful to put this distance between you and all at the dojo for now.

At a later point in time, as you mentioned, you may want to go to another dojo in your city...who knows...but when the time comes the answer will be there.

As one rabbi says, "breath and heal" - "relax and heal"- "theres nothing to think about"... ;)

Peace

dAlen