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James Edwards
01-18-2008, 06:43 PM
Hi, it's my first post here :)

In training, we usually have some breakfall practice from very basic koshinage. The nage would take the uke's hand with the opposing hand, wrap the other hand round his back, move his centre directly under the uke's and lift straight up before throwing down. Keep in mind that this is just for practicing the breakfalls, not learning the actual technique.

Anyway, we were always told to position our centre directly under the uke's as we could use our legs to push uke on top of us. On the other hand, I recently did the exercise with a fukushidoin and she grabbed my belt and sort of placed her centre slightly diagonal to mine before throwing me. I usually end up on top of the nage before falling over but this time I felt like I was sort of being only slightly lifted up and thrown as I slide down her hips, almost like tripping over the hips. Is this simply a more advanced way of doing the koshinage? It seems to be more fluid and stable to draw the uke and make him slip off your hips instead of putting more effort and having to lift uke vertically before throwing him down again. I sometimes find myself slightly dragged forward by the uke as I throw him as well. However I find that placing my centre directly under the uke's help me on the initial movement of the throw.

Then I saw some videos on youtube that show some aikidoka doing the koshinage another way. This time even higher than the technique I was taught and using the hips less. It seems like they use the mid-section of the body and upper arm to lift and throw the uke but somehow still moving from the hips.

Well those are my observations of the koshinage. How do you do yours? And which way do you think is the most effective?

:triangle: :circle: :square:

Ketsan
01-18-2008, 07:16 PM
We basically do sumi otoshi except standing between uke and his hand or go through sankyo.

Koshi nage is easily the technique I like least.

Stefan Stenudd
01-18-2008, 07:26 PM
How do you do yours? And which way do you think is the most effective?
There are so many very different ways to do koshinage. It is probably safe to say that they know it the best in judo - and they have lots of them.

I prefer to drop quite low, by bending my knees, so that this movement alone makes uke start to tip forward. I also try to have as little hip contact as possible, so that less force is needed.
I have tried to explain it in detail here (with some video clips):

http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/koshinage.htm

Generally speaking, I see a clear link between koshinage and kokyunage. You can do almost any koshinage as a kokyunage, by simply stepping to the side instead of remaining in front of uke.
Actually, I have not seen Osensei do koshinage on any of the remaining films of him, as far as I can recall.
I remember that Nishio sensei told me that he sort of introduced koshinage to Hombu. He was already a very experienced judoka. Maybe what he meant was that he encouraged the students at Hombu to do it more than they had, before.

Anyway, I like my koshinage to be as similar to kokyunage as possible. I'm still working on it ;)

Charles Hill
01-19-2008, 12:18 AM
Hi Stephan,

On the 1930's film Budo, Ueshiba does koshinage several times. One can also see the clear connection between koshinage and kokyunage in this film, just as you have pointed out.

Charles

Ellis Amdur
01-19-2008, 03:44 PM
There is a quote in one of the interviews on Aikido Journal where Saito Morihiro stated that Ueshiba told him that Koshinage was his favorite technique. (Given that ogoshi was Jigoro Kano's favorite technique, perhaps this puts a different slant on Kano's statement that "this is my ideal budo" - or however he put it. Perhaps he just recognized they were working their hips the same way, that the perfect "hip throw," is, in fact, a "hip trip."
BTW - my memory of Nishio sensei's koshinage is it WAS a judo throw - hips of uke and nage are in the same line. Ueshiba (and Tohei, in some of the films) use a different principal - the hips of nage are perpendicular to that of uke.
Best

Mike Sigman
01-19-2008, 04:21 PM
There is a quote in one of the interviews on Aikido Journal where Saito Morihiro stated that Ueshiba told him that Koshinage was his favorite technique. (Given that ogoshi was Jigoro Kano's favorite technique, perhaps this puts a different slant on Kano's statement that "this is my ideal budo" - or however he put it. Hi Ellis: IIRC, Kano's favorite throw was Uki Goshi, the "floating hip throw" (you don't lift Uke up with the legs), as opposed to O-Goshi. I'd have to look it up to be absolutely certain, but that's what my memory says. ;)

Best.

Mike

James Edwards
01-19-2008, 04:42 PM
I have seen your clips of the koshinage a couple of times before Mr. Stenudd and I really find it helpful in seeing how the technique is done :) In class we are also told to position our body diagonally to create a space in front of the uke for him to fall into. It's really interesting that you mentioned the link between koshinage and kokyunage. In my opinion it seems like koshinage is pretty much a kokyunage with a much closer centre-to-centre connection if that makes sense, even a "tripping" kokyunage.

I've been looking at the koshinage from other arts as well. Found some Judo koshi waza just now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBfo_ttlAqI
noticed many similarities in it but it seems like in Aikido we just use the basic version of it. "Vanilla" if you may while in Judo they seem to have emphasis on the "tripping" part of it. On most of them the guy still kept his legs together though.

Another clip here, this time from Sumo (around 41 seconds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEe-UIvftUg
There seems to be aiki aspects in this one as the wrestler seemed to do a tenkan and grabbed the other guy's neck to bring up his leg and throw. The commentator called it a koshinage but it looks more like a kokyunage done by holding the neck and leg. A sort of grey area of both techniques. His legs also had a wider stance to provide stability and prevent himself from being dragged down it seems.

Does anyone have a link to a clip of O-sensei performing the throw?

Rupert Atkinson
01-19-2008, 09:54 PM
Hi Ellis: IIRC, Kano's favorite throw was Uki Goshi, the "floating hip throw" (you don't lift Uke up with the legs), as opposed to O-Goshi. I'd have to look it up to be absolutely certain, but that's what my memory says. ;)

Best.

Mike

Yes, that's the one - uki-goshi. It is one of my favourites and is similar in shape the to T-shape koshinage in Aikido. However, the Aikido one is more like koshi-guruma in style (hip wheel) whereas uki-goshi is more like a hip throw, but just using one hip (with no particular emphasis placed on the T-shape). You don't lift like O-goshi, rather, you meet hips, and lean slightly to raise uke up, and throw.

Ellis Amdur
01-20-2008, 01:24 AM
Hi Mike - you are right! But I'm sort of "right" - because I was imagining an ukigoshi when I called it ogoshi ;)
Best
Ellis

James Edwards
01-20-2008, 05:23 AM
Hmm, I don't know why my last post didn't go up (wrote quite a bit).

Was saying that what Mr. Stenudd mentioned about the link between the koshinage and the kokyunage is interesting (and the videos are definitely helpful). It seems like the koshinage is really a kokyunage with a much closer centre-to-centre movement if that makes sense. We were also taught to position our body diagonally in front of uke to create space for him to fall into.

Been looking at the Judo versions on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBfo_ttlAqI
There are definitely lots of similarities like having the legs close toegher but the Judoka's body is more vertical than diagonal and so it seems less balanced.

On the other hand there's this interesting clip from Sumo (watch out at around 41 seconds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEe-UIvftUg
There seems to be aiki principles in this one. The wrestler seems to a tenkan, pushes the other guy's head down to lift the leg. The commentator calls it a koshinage but it looks more like a kokyunage done by holding the belt and the head. His leg stance is also much wider, presumably for better balance and keeping himself from being dragged down.

Aikibu
01-20-2008, 10:04 AM
There is a quote in one of the interviews on Aikido Journal where Saito Morihiro stated that Ueshiba told him that Koshinage was his favorite technique. (Given that ogoshi was Jigoro Kano's favorite technique, perhaps this puts a different slant on Kano's statement that "this is my ideal budo" - or however he put it. Perhaps he just recognized they were working their hips the same way, that the perfect "hip throw," is, in fact, a "hip trip."
BTW - my memory of Nishio sensei's koshinage is it WAS a judo throw - hips of uke and nage are in the same line. Ueshiba (and Tohei, in some of the films) use a different principal - the hips of nage are perpendicular to that of uke.
Best

Concur Sensei Amdur...I came from Judo and Nishio Sensei's Koshinage is closer to Judo Principles along with Kokyunage and Iriminage and all the "Aiki" Throws. Smaller Movements and a closer connection with Uke's center than the Hombu Style (But don't get me wrong Hombu Style works just as well when executed properly. :) )

William Hazen

Mike Sigman
01-21-2008, 09:05 AM
Hi Mike - you are right! But I'm sort of "right" - because I was imagining an ukigoshi when I called it ogoshi ;)
That's a pretty hip observation, Ellis. When you've seen one goshi you've seen 'em all. ;)