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Chris Parkerson
01-16-2008, 07:16 PM
What is the essential strategy in Aikido technique?

eyrie
01-16-2008, 08:32 PM
Uh... Aiki? :p

Chris Parkerson
01-16-2008, 08:38 PM
What do you mean by it?

Chris Parkerson
01-16-2008, 08:39 PM
I suspect that 10 people will give 10 different answers. I would like to hear what folks have to say.

ChrisHein
01-16-2008, 09:00 PM
Of the technique?

To free yourself so you can use your weapon.

Joseph Madden
01-16-2008, 09:16 PM
For most I suspect it would be neutralization through harmonization.
My strategy is "get him before he gets you". This is why we practice kamae.

Josh Reyer
01-16-2008, 09:23 PM
Enter the maelstrom and become one with its center.

crbateman
01-16-2008, 09:24 PM
For me, it is to immediately seize control of the outcome.

Chris Parkerson
01-16-2008, 09:25 PM
Forgive my query. If it is too invasive, please say the word.
1. What exactly do you mean by neutralization? What happens to a person that makes him neutral?

2. It seems that allot of folks feel like they failed in a technique if uke does not end up in some wonderful ukemi. If ukemi is the escape from the technique, is it part of this neutralization you talk about?

3. Is it important to have uke fall?

Chris Parkerson
01-16-2008, 09:26 PM
becoming one with someone's center is certainly part of the package. But does this complete a technique?

Chris Parkerson
01-16-2008, 09:28 PM
Seizing control of the outcome. I like this one alot.

How do you seize control?

Chris Parkerson
01-16-2008, 09:31 PM
To free yourself so you can use your weapon.

Great pragmatic answer... for aikijujitsu.

For you, does Aikido have the same strategy as Aikijujitsu?

Why?

dps
01-16-2008, 09:52 PM
What is the essential strategy in Aikido technique?

Survive.

Roman Kremianski
01-16-2008, 10:31 PM
I'll play it safe here and stick to what the founder said:

"Not get involved, and get the hell up atta' there"

Chris Parkerson
01-16-2008, 10:44 PM
i never was too good at playing it safe.
i find it quite gutsy and risky to irimi with blades drawn.

ChrisHein
01-17-2008, 12:07 AM
Great pragmatic answer... for aikijujitsu.

For you, does Aikido have the same strategy as Aikijujitsu?

Why?

You need to include the first part of my answer:

Of the technique. The techniques strategy is similar, if not the same.

As for my oppinion of the strategy of Aikido as a complete system, my answer is a bit differnt: to develop and understand yourself, through martial practice. But that's also my answer for any martial art ending in "do".

crbateman
01-17-2008, 05:37 AM
Seizing control of the outcome. I like this one alot.

How do you seize control?That is a loaded question with no finite answer. But I suspect that you already know this. When someone asks "How long is a string?", how do you answer?

Every situation is different, and the permutations for seizing control will run the gamut. You feel for the proper response. Maybe the answer is simply to be elsewhere. Maybe it is to talk. Intimidate, perhaps. Swell up and turn green. In practice, it may be to absorb, blend, redirect, evade, stabilize, destabilize, preempt, lead, follow.

The commonalities (and there are few) are to decide and implement, as quickly as possible, based on the situation, your skills, and your limitations. Not everybody brings the same dog to the fight.

SeiserL
01-17-2008, 05:46 AM
IMHO, my goals is to control the situation/threat with the least amount of damage in the shortest amount of time, with the least amount of effort to effectively and efficiently achieve the goal.

My strategy is to enter and blend, redirect and unbalance, and throw or control using a circular path.

My tactics are the techniques and principles of Aikido (or whatever else is improvised and available) with enough intent and intensity to get the job done.

You know what you need to do. Don't hesitate. Do it.

Chris Parkerson
01-17-2008, 05:57 AM
Love where you are going Clark...

Seizing control... You mention common factors in the different tactics you scribed; the ones you employ to seize control? These are things that tori experiences as "Different dogs going to the fight".

Is there a common factor that happens to uke no matter what tactic is applied?

Lynn has definitely helped the definition...

Enter, blend, redirect, unbalance and throw - efficiently (without excess effort) without hesitation.

Uke gets unbalanced. How? Is balance the same as being unstable?

Chris Parkerson
01-17-2008, 06:10 AM
Clark and fellow seekers,

I apoligize if the question seems loaded. I have no definitive answer either. Only wanderings along the way with small "enlightenments" that appear satisfying from time to time.

If I did have a difinitive answer, my art would probably be dead.

But the journey is a blast.

Josh Reyer
01-17-2008, 06:15 AM
becoming one with someone's center is certainly part of the package. But does this complete a technique?

I said become one with the center of the maelstrom, not one with the center of someone.

As for technique, well, techniques are what you train. What happens when you enter the maelstrom depends on what shape it takes. You asked for "the essential strategy". IMO, techniques fall to a level of granulation even below that of tactics.

Irimi is part of every aikido technique. And while at a very basic level there's a distinct omote and ura, at a certain level of proficiency the distinction breaks down, the movements are flowing and circular, and it appears that uke revolves around tori. This seems to fit in with Ueshiba's writings, hence my answer. "The" essential strategy of aikido? Enter into the center of the conflict and become one with it. Everything after that is tactics, technique, and "expedient means".

Chris Parkerson
01-17-2008, 06:45 AM
Enter the mailstorm.

Thanks for the clarification. This is definitely different than joining centers. I think I imposed words that were used in another discussion yesterday.

I envision you entering a hurricane (dynamic sphere) where your centripital force makes the uke revolve around you. Is this what you mean? If so, how does a technique like nikyo fit into you definition?

Re the question:

What is the essential strategy in Aikido technique?

SeiserL
01-17-2008, 06:55 AM
If I did have a difinitive answer, my art would probably be dead.
IMHO, if the answer is a goal/destination, then yes your journey dies when you arrive/get-it. But if you hold your answer as only a point in time that begins a direction/journey, it is alive and well.

That's my strategy for today and I'm sticking to it, until I further refine it or discover it is completely wrong.

"You can't learn what you think you already know."

Chris Parkerson
01-17-2008, 07:20 AM
In a past life (age 30 and below), I was trained as a systematic theologian. Sometines it is a curse. Other times, it greatly assists in deconstruction, reverse engineering and testing concepts.

I suspect the most creative thinkers (Socrates, John Calvin, Rene Descartes, Morehei Ueshiba), lived very comfortably without closure to their system of thought and without fear of inevitable self contradiction. The systems folks, the bureaucrats that want to take every seminal thought and codify it, package it up and dole it pout to the masses, somehow miss the "tao" that was originally in it.

Nevertheless, the great thinkers did dissect, reverse engineer, and and otherwise test their thought in order to refine it, deepen it and find new avenues of inquiry.

Chris Parkerson
01-17-2008, 07:44 AM
I really enjoyed the part in the movie "The Last Samurai". where Tom Cruise is getting his ass kicked and the young prince says, "you have too many minds".

Because his mind was split, he was being defeated.

Does this have something to do with Aiki? I tthink so.
The Chinese have a formula called : I, Li, Chi.
As the mind goes, so follows the body, energy follows the body.

For me, Aiki is about taking the mind through technique. Some techniques require physical touch. Some require pain. High level technique can be done from a distance with presence, wrods, intent and posture.

So where am I taking the mind? To a point of instability. Then I attack balance.

I would differentiate balance and stability. Mifune and Tohei's videos show how someone can be uprooted (lose balance) and land like a cat on both feet. Webulls wabble but they don't fall down.... Why, they keep their center of gravity inside their base.

At the same token, we have all worked out with the uke who takes falls for us without any resistance at all. They are actually controlling the encounter with their ukemi. Perhaps we feel cheated but we are not sure why. It is because we never were satisfied that they were unstable before they fell (succumbed to the loss of balance).

Stability, in my opinion, and as taught to me by John Clodig, has to do with placing weight on the spine and making it go slightly out of alignment. Doing this on first touch gives tori physical control. The lighter and more subtle it is, the better.

Even if uke tenses and fights back, he just causes himself to become more unstable.

As for strategy, the mind-split I work for in technique has allot to do with a prime directive that all bipeds have in their DNA.

You must "Protect the Head". When someone is unstable and knows they they may soon lose balance and fall, they want to protect their head from the fall. Their mind goes there naturally. They, thus, have "too many minds" and cannot focus as well on attacking me.

This is the prolegomena to any and all technique. Does the fall necessarily need to occur? No just the splitting of the mind. There is where I gain control. From there I choose my options on how I intend to follow through and how the encounter should end.

ChrisMoses
01-17-2008, 08:23 AM
I'll play it safe here and stick to what the founder said:

"Not get involved, and get the hell up atta' there"

Care to cite that?

Joseph Madden
01-17-2008, 08:32 AM
Forgive my query. If it is too invasive, please say the word.
1. What exactly do you mean by neutralization? What happens to a person that makes him neutral?

2. It seems that allot of folks feel like they failed in a technique if uke does not end up in some wonderful ukemi. If ukemi is the escape from the technique, is it part of this neutralization you talk about?

3. Is it important to have uke fall?

1. He/She is no longer a threat to your personal space. They have entered into your sphere of influence and have become neutral or stopped.(by the technique(s) you have performed.

2. It is not a failure if uke escapes from the technique. If you continue to hold your centre and continue as shite and they decide to enter again, you just continue. O-Sensei often said if he was to demonstrate a real aikido confrontation, the other person would die.
Not merely from technique I might add, but from sheer exhaustion.

3. It is not important form uke to fall, not at all. Neutralizing a threat means just that. Uke need not be killed or unconscious.

phitruong
01-17-2008, 08:36 AM
read a book and found an interesting quote - "only the soul matters". no strategy, no mind, no ki, no technique, no enemy as long as the soul is intact in the end.

Chris Parkerson
01-17-2008, 12:48 PM
Phi Throng: "Only the Soul Matters"

In the big picture. I think you are right.
Recently allot of monks have paid the price in Myanmar and left the world with their souls intact.

Was/Is their strategy as efficient as was Ghandi's? Perhaps only time will tell.

Aikibu
01-17-2008, 01:23 PM
What is the essential strategy in Aikido technique?

Simple is best...

To become one with Your Other... the Universe.. Yourself...

If you can "practice" that at the right moment then you have Harmony.... and are expressing the "Strategy" of Aikido.

William Hazen

Chris Parkerson
01-17-2008, 05:46 PM
Would someone assist me in further developing or outright critiquing my last thesis?

Aikibu
01-17-2008, 06:36 PM
Sure Chris,

Having read all the posts Most folks are confusing Tactics with Strategy.

Perhaps an understanding of the differance between the two would be a good place to start.

Here's a hint... Any tactic that results in "Defeat" is not the "Strategic Goal" of Aikido.

William Hazen

Off to practice I go...:)

Kevin Leavitt
01-17-2008, 06:39 PM
So, "WIN/WIN" is the strategic goal of aikido?

A. Westbrook and O.Ratti do a good job of explaining the various basic strategies that can be employed in the first few pages of their book.

Win/win
lose/win
win/lose
lose/lose

Chris Parkerson
01-17-2008, 07:38 PM
I will have to look into that author.

I try to run my security consulting company on a win-win "green" for of capitalism. It is an uphill battle as most of my employees are coneservatives who figure capitalism is based on win-lose adversarial relationships. And those are my employees. Any mistake I make, they often feel in was intentional and based on greed or ill will.

In an adversarial real world encounter, let's say I am negotiating the return of a kidnapped person in Mexico, Von Claussevitch's dictum that I "place my adversary in a position where what I want him to do is less devastating to him than that which he wants to do". Is this not also Aiki?

Kevin Leavitt
01-17-2008, 08:54 PM
I would not read "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" (A Westbrook/O Ratti) to gain any great philosophical insight on aiki strategy. However, it is a good general over view of aikido and a good distllation/codification of the basics

Chris Parkerson
01-17-2008, 09:41 PM
i know the book.
you are right.
i do like to lead adversaries along the path they wish to take and then deviate by degrees until they are not where they want to be.

Another form of non-contention is the Chinese (and Daito) idea of suck in- spit out.

crbateman
01-17-2008, 09:53 PM
Is there a common factor that happens to uke no matter what tactic is applied?Perhaps only the loss of control over the outcome... The failure to complete whatever it is he set out to do.

Is balance the same as being unstable?Assuming you meant "Is unbalanced the same as being unstable?", I would have to say unbalanced is a means to become unstable, but there are other ways to be unstable without being unbalanced, so it is not necessarily a two-way equality.

eyrie
01-17-2008, 11:50 PM
What do you mean by it?
Hi Chris,

Forrest Morgan (Living the Martial Way) makes an important distinction between doctrine, strategy and tactics; "doctrine" is a set of broad and general beliefs, which I would say encompasses, not just the "principles", but also the quasi-religious and spiritual philosophy of the art. "Strategy" is the general or 'broad brush' plans for fighting, developed according to the beliefs of the selected doctrine. And "tactics", are the specific techniques and maneuvers employed to carry out those plans.

It's not a loaded question, and neither was my answer. :) You asked, "what is the essential strategy of Aikido, to which I replied "aiki". To me, aiki is the fundamental strategy thru which the tactics of "blend", evade, enter, ma-ai, kuzushi, applied control, redirection, lock, throw, atemi etc. are carried out.

A fundamental principle (i.e. doctrine) of Aikido is not meeting force with force. The general strategy to accomplish this is to join with their force at, or before, the moment of contact - IOW, to "ai" with their "ki". How one does that, on a very simplistic level, is thru the tactics of tai-sabaki, ashi-sabaki (evasion, "blending"), incorporating the key tactical elements of timing, rhythm, and distance.

Redirection and striking "between the gaps", are also tactics which fall within the general strategy of "aiki" - consistent with the doctrinal principle of not meeting force with force, and yet, still joining with their ki, albeit in a manner that is not at first obvious. (To me, atemi is merely another form of "redirection").

But, on another, more interesting, level, one could also employ the same strategy of "aiki" using the tactic of obtaining kuzushi at the moment of contact.

So, to me, "aiki" is the fundamental (basic and essential) strategy of the art. No "ai", no "ki" or no "aiki" => no aikido. Obviously, what that means to different people is going to be different. Considering that the strategems of the ryuha is kept secret to maintain a combative advantage and superiority, I'll end by saying this: aiki is simply one of many "basic" combat strategies... and it would behove people to heed Morgan's advice of building skills around a doctrinal core.

But I'm sure you already know that. ;)

Chris Parkerson
01-18-2008, 01:45 AM
excellent

SeiserL
01-18-2008, 05:09 AM
So, "WIN/WIN" is the strategic goal of aikido? A. Westbrook and O.Ratti do a good job of explaining the various basic strategies that can be employed in the first few pages of their book.
Win/win
lose/win
win/lose
lose/lose
IMHO, I think of those as the possible outcome frame of references. The strategy is the map the get there. The tactical is actually driving the car.

Guess its all about the direction we drive. And since we are going in circles, I think I'll just get dizzy.

ChrisMoses
01-18-2008, 08:26 AM
So, "WIN/WIN" is the strategic goal of aikido?

A. Westbrook and O.Ratti do a good job of explaining the various basic strategies that can be employed in the first few pages of their book.

Win/win
lose/win
win/lose
lose/lose

Those are outcomes, not really strategies. No one goes into an encounter with the strategy of, "I'm going to lose, they're going to win."

Dynamic Sphere should be left on the shelf these days. In another thread you talked about how much has changed in how some military combatives are taught since 1999. ADS was written in the 60's by some relative novices in the art, and should be approached with that context in mind.

MM
01-18-2008, 09:20 AM
Hi Chris,

Forrest Morgan (Living the Martial Way) makes an important distinction between doctrine, strategy and tactics; "doctrine" is a set of broad and general beliefs, which I would say encompasses, not just the "principles", but also the quasi-religious and spiritual philosophy of the art. "Strategy" is the general or 'broad brush' plans for fighting, developed according to the beliefs of the selected doctrine. And "tactics", are the specific techniques and maneuvers employed to carry out those plans.

It's not a loaded question, and neither was my answer. :) You asked, "what is the essential strategy of Aikido, to which I replied "aiki". To me, aiki is the fundamental strategy thru which the tactics of "blend", evade, enter, ma-ai, kuzushi, applied control, redirection, lock, throw, atemi etc. are carried out.

A fundamental principle (i.e. doctrine) of Aikido is not meeting force with force. The general strategy to accomplish this is to join with their force at, or before, the moment of contact - IOW, to "ai" with their "ki". How one does that, on a very simplistic level, is thru the tactics of tai-sabaki, ashi-sabaki (evasion, "blending"), incorporating the key tactical elements of timing, rhythm, and distance.

Redirection and striking "between the gaps", are also tactics which fall within the general strategy of "aiki" - consistent with the doctrinal principle of not meeting force with force, and yet, still joining with their ki, albeit in a manner that is not at first obvious. (To me, atemi is merely another form of "redirection").

But, on another, more interesting, level, one could also employ the same strategy of "aiki" using the tactic of obtaining kuzushi at the moment of contact.

So, to me, "aiki" is the fundamental (basic and essential) strategy of the art. No "ai", no "ki" or no "aiki" => no aikido. Obviously, what that means to different people is going to be different. Considering that the strategems of the ryuha is kept secret to maintain a combative advantage and superiority, I'll end by saying this: aiki is simply one of many "basic" combat strategies... and it would behove people to heed Morgan's advice of building skills around a doctrinal core.

But I'm sure you already know that. ;)

Hi Ignatius,
I think I'd have to generally agree with your post. But, I think aiki might blur the line between strategy and doctrine. At least for Ueshiba Morihei Aikido. I believe his way of being, his body, his mind was literally aiki. So when he talked about being one with the Universe, it was him and how he was aiki that allowed it to happen.

For others, their aiki was used differently. In that, it becomes more of a strategy than a doctrine.

But, the original question was "What is the essential strategy in Aikido technique?" That question is really what is a strategy within a tactic? Kind of a convoluted question. To gain a better answer, I think we need to rewrite and ask as you noted, What is the essential strategy in Aikido.

Even then, there will be a myriad of replies, none necessarily wrong. For each student went his/her own way. To get a much better answer, one would have to ask specifically, What is the essential strategy of Ueshiba Morihei's Aikido or What is the essential strategy of Ueshiba Kisshomaru's Aikido or What is the essential strategy of Shioda's Aikido, etc. Each student's strategies tended to run slightly different.

Goldsbury sensei very well illustrated what Kisshomaru's Aikido doctrine was in his latest column. We can all see how Kisshomaru's strategy worked its wonders throughout the world and gave Aikido a very large following. That's one example of defining doctrine and strategy. Probably not exactly the answer some were looking for, but you can see how general the questions really are. :)

In a general sense, I like what you wrote about the doctrine, strategy, and tactics of Aikido. I think it mostly fits Ueshiba Morihei's Aikido, too. But, people have different definitions and physical abilities with respect to "aiki". One of these days, maybe I'll figure out what Ueshiba Morihei really meant. :)

Mark

Kevin Leavitt
01-18-2008, 03:47 PM
Good points on the win/win thing being on endstate...not a strategy! Thanks for correcting me on that! duh!

Kevin Leavitt
01-18-2008, 03:48 PM
I agree on ADS Chris. Hence, why I said "basic" and "overview"

Chris Parkerson
01-18-2008, 05:49 PM
Situation and Mission

In my work, I go out into the world to some (1) really bad places and/ or (2) with people who are at risk for one reason or another.

I expect that if some bad guys have us in their sights, they will probably have avoided my surveillance detection efforts and my protective intelligence system.

My mission is to avoid or at least mitigate the risks despite the intelligence failures that have occurred.

Doctrine of Battle:

I will do whaterver it take to efficiently mitigate a threat to my charge. That includes, physical, financial or legal harm and/or embarrassment. I personally choose the way that least damages my soul (Karma).

Strategy
I choose to command an incident by splitting the opponent's mind so that I can regain control of an incident. At first contact, whether it be physical, vocal or visual, I choose tactical methods that cause either mental or physical instability. While that instability is occurring, I seize the opponent's balance, thus taking control of both the King (stability) and Queen (Balance) on the chessboard.

Tactics
Voice
Posture and weight shift
Heavy hands with applied geometry for biped tipping

Techniques
Miriads of learned movement that are instinctive at this point.

eyrie
01-18-2008, 07:05 PM
But, I think aiki might blur the line between strategy and doctrine. An astute observation, Mark... ;) There is a fine line between doctrine and strategy, but as Morgan points out, strategic objectives are the bridge between doctrine and strategy - to which I believe is what the various intepretations of "harmonizing with your opponent" alludes to. IOW, if the doctrine is to not meet force with force, then one strategic objective might be to "harmonize", by way of the overarching strategy of aiki.

At least for Ueshiba Morihei Aikido. I believe his way of being, his body, his mind was literally aiki. So when he talked about being one with the Universe, it was him and how he was aiki that allowed it to happen. I believe Bruce Lee alluded to the same thing in the opening scene in Enter the Dragon. ;)

Each student's strategies tended to run slightly different. True, BUT the fundamental strategy for each of those you mentioned, is (should be? oughta be?) essentially the same. Otherwise, it might have been called something else other than aiki-whatever.

Goldsbury sensei very well illustrated what Kisshomaru's Aikido doctrine was in his latest column. We can all see how Kisshomaru's strategy worked its wonders throughout the world and gave Aikido a very large following. That's one example of defining doctrine and strategy. Probably not exactly the answer some were looking for, but you can see how general the questions really are. :) I haven't read the article, so I can't comment. But it seems like you're alluding to a strategy for promulgating the spread of aikido - which, to my mind is a different thing to what Chris' question asks. However, I interpreted the question to mean martial/combative strategy, and judging by the responses, is what most people have interpreted it to mean. Thanks for pointing out a different perspective though... :)

Roman Kremianski
01-18-2008, 07:48 PM
i find it quite gutsy and risky to irimi with blades drawn.

I'd think most would prefer to irimi in the opposite direction with blades drawn.

eyrie
01-18-2008, 08:17 PM
Situation and Mission I like how you've introduced language-specific elements of military combat and maneuvering, and chess - both of which, I think, are highly appropriate to how people engaged in martial pursuits should be thinking.

For me, the primary mission in any encounter is to avoid, escape and evade (E&E) safely - based on my personal values and beliefs, which I believe are consistent with the overarching doctrine of the art. Secondary missions might involve other considerations.

In terms of strategy, this will generally depend on context, situation and circumstances. Generally, Plan A will be to, using a military analogy, create a diversion and effect a safe exit. Plan B might be to "defend the fort" - in this case my personal safety and/or that of my family. If all else fails, Plan C could be to launch a counter-offensive and force the enemy to retreat. Plan D, E, F, G might be something else, and in all cases, enable me to complete my primary mission.

Tactics are fluid, and generally this will involve any skill, technique or maneuver that will allow completion of strategic objectives and the primary mission.

I realize that some of these terms crossover - e.g. E&E can also be strategy and tactic. However, I think if one approaches it in the manner of waging war, and defining it in terms of Objectives, Plan of Attack and Execution, it becomes clear which is which.

Chris Parkerson
01-18-2008, 09:57 PM
Regarding Irimi with blades.
i have spent some time working with Munenori's idea of "no sword" style. Concerning 4 foot razorblades, inside can be pretty darn safe. they also become wonderful levers. Uke's sword becomes mine and uke gets cut with it, often while uke is still holding it.

clwk
01-19-2008, 01:00 AM
Regarding Irimi with blades.
i have spent some time working with Munenori's idea of "no sword" style. Concerning 4 foot razorblades, inside can be pretty darn safe. they also become wonderful levers. Uke's sword becomes mine and uke gets cut with it, often while uke is still holding it.
Hi Chris,

I don't know you or what you're about -- so please just take this at face value. Are you serious about that or is it a rhetorical expression of a technical ideal? I understand the gist of what you are saying, but I am genuinely curious what the confidence you express above implies about your apparent attacker. Does the sword confer a handicap or is he necessarily a slouch for attacking?

-ck

Chris Parkerson
01-19-2008, 06:19 AM
I would never try it against double tanto.
wakazashi is tricky.
Katana is a long enough weapon that it presents allot of holes in its defense.
the holes present opportunity for irimi and control.
Would I care to make this my primary skill.
No. My primary skill against any blade is to run or bring my gun to the fight.

My phone worked wonderfully in my last knife fight. I got made on a surveillance. Got surrounded by 5 construction workers. Nowhere to run and my gun was in the car.

Before the knives came out I had dialed 911, left the phone on for all to see and stated, "those knives better not come out unless you want to go to jail for aggrivated kidnap." the workers's mind got split. Help their friend intimidate me was one mind. It wasn't working. Go to jail for a couple of years was another mind. Their wives would be furious. Probably would not have worked on MS13.0

Still, I do train worst case scenarios until I have confidence in them. The "no sword style" is definitely a worst case scenario.

Aikibu
01-19-2008, 09:00 AM
I would never try it against double tanto.
wakazashi is tricky.
Katana is a long enough weapon that it presents allot of holes in its defense.
the holes present opportunity for irimi and control.
Would I care to make this my primary skill.
No. My primary skill against any blade is to run or bring my gun to the fight.

My phone worked wonderfully in my last knife fight. I got made on a surveillance. Got surrounded by 5 construction workers. Nowhere to run and my gun was in the car.

Before the knives came out I had dialed 911, left the phone on for all to see and stated, "those knives better not come out unless you want to go to jail for aggrivated kidnap." the workers's mind got split. Help their friend intimidate me was one mind. It wasn't working. Go to jail for a couple of years was another mind. Their wives would be furious. Probably would not have worked on MS13.0

Still, I do train worst case scenarios until I have confidence in them. The "no sword style" is definitely a worst case scenario.

Hmmmm...Acted with resolve in an instant...resolved the conflict without violence, and by connecting with your attackers point of view (use a weapon go to jail) thereby achieving Harmony...

O'Sensei, Terry Dobson and your Sensei would have been proud. :)

William Hazen

Chris Parkerson
01-19-2008, 12:33 PM
Sensei Hazen,

You are very kind. I told the story to impress the point that, had I NOT trained against real blades with a "no sword" style in the dojo; had I NOT put myself under enough pressure from both real blades and even more pressure against wooden ones, I simply would not have stayed calm enough to think towards a negotiated way of peace and harmony.

clwk
01-19-2008, 04:06 PM
I would never try it against double tanto.
wakazashi is tricky.
Katana is a long enough weapon that it presents allot of holes in its defense.
the holes present opportunity for irimi and control.
Would I care to make this my primary skill.
No.
<snip>
Still, I do train worst case scenarios until I have confidence in them. The "no sword style" is definitely a worst case scenario.
That makes sense, Chris. I don't have a problem with what you're saying. I was actually curious whether you had (or were advertising) a freakish mastery -- which I would have been interested in knowing more about. As long as you're talking about 'worst case scenarios' and theoretical tactical exploration, I'm back to lurking.

Chhi'mèd

Chris Parkerson
01-19-2008, 04:53 PM
As long as you're talking about 'worst case scenarios' and theoretical tactical exploration, I'm back to lurking.

With all due respect, Chii,

There was no theory involved. I was ready to go with empty hands, and of course a phone that I would "power throw" into my first victim while I closed the gap.

I had assessed the total environment. I notice which ones looked like they were not fully committed. Which one's had bad knees. Which ones' skin tone and bellies showed me that they were given to regular nights of alcohol. It would not have been pretty and several of us would have had to visit the hospital. I am pretty sure I would have survived.

clwk
01-19-2008, 06:05 PM
Chris,
With all due respect, Chii,
We don't know each other, so very little is due.


There was no theory involved. I was ready to go with empty hands, and of course a phone that I would "power throw" into my first victim while I closed the gap.

I had assessed the total environment. I notice which ones looked like they were not fully committed. Which one's had bad knees. Which ones' skin tone and bellies showed me that they were given to regular nights of alcohol. It would not have been pretty and several of us would have had to visit the hospital. I am pretty sure I would have survived.
I think we may just have a misunderstanding. My comments with regard to 'theory' related to your katana/four-foot-razor statements. You obviously get into (or nearly get into) a lot of fights with seriously bad people who may or may not have weapons. I can respect that this gives you knowledge, confidence, and abilities. I am not attempting to impugn those, and I was not even addressing your cell-phone versus knife anecdote. I certainly do not mean to imply that you could not have handled yourself against the group of armed-with-knife attackers. I simply do not know and would not comment.

If your optimistic remarks about getting inside and dealing with a sword-wielding attacker are *not* theoretical then I misunderstood your response. I thought you were saying that your training surrounding such scenarios is in order to understand the theoretical tactical ramifications of even the worst-case scenario -- and that this theoretical exploration served you well in a related-but-different practical situation. I did not think you were saying you have experience mixing it up empty-handed against katanas on the street. That is why I referred to that scenario as theoretical. Please look at the text I quoted as context for that remark. Did I misunderstand? Is this actually something with which you have significant (or even any) real-world experience?

I'm actually curious, and I would be genuinely interested in hearing about any such experiences you might have.

Chhi'mèd

Chris Parkerson
01-19-2008, 07:14 PM
I train against all forms of blunt and edged weapons.

The first thing we all experience with weapons in freeform work is that size and weight matters.

A katana (steele) is not a Shinai or a light aluminum replica. It cannot be handled like a shinai. While they are both long and subject to larger arcs, the shinai is light and can be flicked quickly.

Katana have enough weight to require large arcs. This is where their weakness lies.

Most of us are familiar with the study:

Once you irimi and grip the forearm of the handler or once you get the attacker to commit to a full arc strike, there is room for counter attack (very small room).

Due to its's length, once there is a battle over who has control of the weapon, serious leverage can be wielded against the swordsman. This is simply a study of pivot points, body posture and leverage.

But do we practice it? Do we play against Bokken and Jo staffs with trusted partners who are willing to tumble about while grappling with 3-4 hands on the weapon? Do we enter into real blade cuts administered by trusted partners? It makes for great training.

If Munenori did it, why is it so difficult to think we cannot duplicate the experience?

Chris Parkerson
01-19-2008, 07:36 PM
I would be genuinely interested in hearing about any such experiences you might have.

When in the Border Patrol Academy at Glenco, GA, I actually failed my first FATS machine examination over a long blunt weapon scenario.. FATS is a computer shoot-no shoot scenario training with a life-size movie going on in front of you.

A guy in the rear can change the scenario at will via a computer.
The perp in the movie wielded a rake and advanced. I side stepped and kept talking to him. I was supposed to shoot. I failed the test.

About 1.5 years later, a guy attacked me and my partner with a walking stick out on the Kennedy Ranch. I guess I failed the test again. I did not shoot even though the stick was wielded at me. I ended up unharmed.

In the patrol, I had 2 encounters with long blunt weapons and one with a machete. I was harmed by none of them.

Sadly, the guy that threw a machete at me was dispatched by a team of agents in a second vehicle.

I have watched (especially in the 1980's and 1990's) how often police resorted to dispatching mentally challenged suspects who were weilding blunt or edged weapons. I thought it a travesty and still do. Luckily, nowdays there are much better intermediate weapons that can neutralize these folks and render them harmless so that they can be arrested without serious injury or death.

clwk
01-19-2008, 07:41 PM
But do we practice it? Do we play against Bokken and Jo staffs with trusted partners who are willing to tumble about while grappling with 3-4 hands on the weapon?

Do we enter into real blade cuts administered by trusted partners? It makes for great training.
I infer from your last sentence that those were all rhetorical questions, the answer to which is 'yes'. But I assumed from the start that you did those things. What I was trying to understand is whether you believe the methods you describe would be effective against someone who was actually trying to injure you, rather than to give you the experience of working with steel safely. You might believe this because A) you had concrete experience with that situation (unlikely, I admit -- but that is why I ask), or B) for some other reason. I am just drawing a distinction between a training exercise, however 'realistic', and a real-world scenario. If you feel the distinction to be invalid just say so. If it is a valid distinction then what is wrong with calling theory theory? If you think it is an invalid distinction then just tell me so. I am totally comfortable with the idea that you believe those techniques would be effective. I just can't quite tell if it is the case.


If Munenori did it, why is it so difficult to think we cannot duplicate the experience?
Well, if Munenori were alive and posting about it on the internet I might ask him the same questions. If his answer were, "Yes, I know from experience that this works," then I would have my answer. I might then ask him follow-up questions about his 'freakish mastery' -- surely a term of approbation in this context. I might go so far as to want to meet him to experience the method first-hand, although I might also be nervous about getting too close to him.

Chhi'mèd

clwk
01-19-2008, 07:46 PM
In the patrol, I had 2 encounters with long blunt weapons and one with a machete. I was harmed by none of them.
Thanks for the stories. You posted this while I was writing my previous. You obviously have a lot of experience in this general area, which is why I was actually curious about whether you had firsthand knowledge of the sword thing.

I have watched (especially in the 1980's and 1990's) how often police resorted to dispatching mentally challenged suspects who were weilding blunt or edged weapons. I thought it a travesty and still do. Luckily, nowdays there are much better intermediate weapons that can neutralize these folks and render them harmless so that they can be arrested without serious injury or death.
That does sound better.

Chhi'mèd

Chris Parkerson
01-19-2008, 07:58 PM
Chii

You have not insulted me nor I hope have I insulted you. Just trying to be objective and thorough in my accounting.

90 percent of the techniques I have trained, (hands on sword included) I have not used. That does not make them theoretical to me because the principles involved in them are used in real life bouts.

Perhaps returning to Munenori, I think the precursor to this discussion has to do with his discussion of the "Moon over the Water". When you can place your mind everywhere and nowhere at the same time, when you are not thinking about a specific or a group of favorite techniques, all encounters have a different reality whether they are empty hands, with edged or with blunt weapons.

I might add one principle to his discussion, if you take a hit or a cut, make it the last one you have to take, enter, enter, enter u until that darn weapon is under control.

clwk
01-19-2008, 11:40 PM
You have not insulted me nor I hope have I insulted you. Just trying to be objective and thorough in my accounting.Perfect, thanks. No insult perceived.


Perhaps returning to Munenori, I think the precursor to this discussion has to do with his discussion of the "Moon over the Water". When you can place your mind everywhere and nowhere at the same time, when you are not thinking about a specific or a group of favorite techniques, all encounters have a different reality whether they are empty hands, with edged or with blunt weapons.
'When you can . . .' Yes, I would buy that.

I might add one principle to his discussion, if you take a hit or a cut, make it the last one you have to take, enter, enter, enter u until that darn weapon is under control.I don't disagree, but that's a theoretical statement for me. Thanks for clearing up where you're coming from.

Chhi'mèd

Chris Parkerson
01-20-2008, 03:49 AM
Chhi,

I wish we could defer to Hal von Luebbert on these matters. He had
over 1,000 organized bouts in his career (judo, AAU wrestling and Sombo). He was called "man who walks in storms" by his Indian friends.

His government career left him with several blade and bullet wounds. His private life gave him more.

One night, a sniper hit him twice in the parking lot of his home, he made it to his car, got his .45 and charged the position of fire.

Confronted with five guys carrying bats and chains, he took out 4. The fourth had the chain. During an Uchimata, the chain wrapped around his groin. When he charged the fifth man, the guy began to run. Then he noticed warm licquid on his chest. Not blood, he realized he was charging the last man while spewing vomit. Freaky what a trained fighter can morph (shape shift) into. Remember the old Celtic story of Cuchulain?

SeiserL
01-20-2008, 08:31 AM
Quote: i find it quite gutsy and risky to irimi with blades drawn.

Quote: I'd think most would prefer to irimi in the opposite direction with blades drawn.

Irimi with blades drawn? Coming from an FMA background, is there any other way?

Opposite direction? Beware the "chase mentality". More people are injured running away from that running towards. Beside a moving target, coming at you, firing back is much harder to hit. One of you will be afraid, make it the other person.

clwk
01-20-2008, 08:40 AM
Confronted with five guys carrying bats and chains, he took out 4. The fourth had the chain. During an Uchimata, the chain wrapped around his groin. When he charged the fifth man, the guy began to run. Then he noticed warm licquid on his chest. Not blood, he realized he was charging the last man while spewing vomit. Freaky what a trained fighter can morph (shape shift) into. Remember the old Celtic story of Cuchulain?
That's a good story. Actually your last question raises a parallel issue, which is germane to the topic of this thread.


"He is known for his terrifying battle frenzy or ríastrad,[1] in which he becomes an unrecognisable monster who knows neither friend nor foe. "
1. Literally "the act of contorting, a distortion") (Dictionary of the Irish Language Compact Edition, Royal Irish Academy, Dublin, 1990, p. 507)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BAchulainn#_note-0

I certainly agree that entering is a viable strategy for implementing 'aiki', and that this has both technical and philosophical implications. But if that connection is inauthentic or different-in-purpose, how do you classify the strategy? Is 'riastrad' (contortion, distortion) into an 'unrecognisable monster' a possible guise of aiki, or is it necessarily a distortion, successful or otherwise? Would Cuchulain have even the theoretical goal of pacifying his attacker at first contact? This seems relevant to your lament with regard to unnecessary slayings above.

Chhi'mèd

L. Camejo
01-20-2008, 09:33 AM
What is the essential strategy in Aikido technique?The essential strategy of Aiki waza is to take absolute control of a conflict by instantaneously owning and dominating an aggressor's space, balance and stability in mind, body and spirit at or before the point of physical engagement for the purpose of ending the conflict in the most efficient manner possible, preferably minimizing any injury caused.

On another note, great points on the irimi and sword concept. From my own testing using Aikidoka wearing the Men (for protection) against bokken and shinai wielding Dan level Kendoka much of my own experiences are concurrent with those of Chris. In fact on the very first attack with Shinai the Kendoka were unable to shorten their strokes quickly enough when they realized that it was possible to enter within their guard and throw them. Subsequent strokes of course were more difficult to avoid as they pulled them short knowing how we would enter. This level of performance however could not be repeated with the heavier bokken and we could get in on almost every occasion. Quite an interesting experience.

I'd think most would prefer to irimi in the opposite direction with blades drawn.Not sure how this would work with shnken-wielding attacker, but I do know that it is most dangerous against a knife attacker who will be able to close and cut you many times before you get up to a good running speed. My own training with DT instructors has always taught to run towards and past the blade wielding person, forcing him to turn around, then accelerate towards you while you have already accelerated to top speed.

Just some thoughts. I reserve the right to be wrong.:)

LC:ai::ki:

Kevin Leavitt
01-20-2008, 12:35 PM
This is why I always try to instill in the soldiers that I train to keep moving forward into the fight. Keep flowing forward, never go backwards...bad things may be happening, but moving away from them is not going to make it any better.

Yes, sometimes it is good to move away, but normally...not when the opposition can reach out and touch you with whatever weapon they have. the reaction time of moving away if they have the tactical advantage is greater than your ability to defend during the evasion.

At least that has been my experiences.

Kevin Leavitt
01-20-2008, 12:39 PM
David Valadez has some excellent video footage on the Police thread that demonstrates the 21 foot rule. Keep in mind though that in this instance the "officer" is trying to create distance to fire his weapon.

Even so, he is not running away, but is on a decreasing spiral towards the center that ends up back on top of uke.

Good stuff!

L. Camejo
01-20-2008, 01:16 PM
David Valadez has some excellent video footage on the Police thread that demonstrates the 21 foot rule. Keep in mind though that in this instance the "officer" is trying to create distance to fire his weapon.

Even so, he is not running away, but is on a decreasing spiral towards the center that ends up back on top of uke.

Good stuff!Hi Kevin,

The practice session where we worked on retreating toward and past the attacker was the same session where we dealt with the 21 foot rule. One sort of led to the other. Very enlightening stuff when practiced.

David's video shows some great training.

Regards.

Chris Parkerson
01-20-2008, 01:36 PM
Is 'riastrad' (contortion, distortion) into an 'unrecognisable monster' a possible guise of aiki, or is it necessarily a distortion, successful or otherwise? Would Cuchulain have even the theoretical goal of pacifying his attacker at first contact? This seems relevant to your lament with regard to unnecessary slayings above.

Shape shifting is less obvious to we who are cartesian in thought and allude silently to Thomas Hobbe's argument against miracles. But in organic societies, shape shifting can occur in a variety of ways. If we take seriously the reality of Quantum Physics, our Cartesian (mechanistic) thesis might find its antithesis in the old organic metaphor very soon. See John Perkin's work on "Shapeshifting: Shamanic Techniques for Global and Personal Transformation". http://www.johnperkins.org/

Regarding charging forward in battle, Kevin can probably tell us about the study an Army Psychologist Colonel did on the history of bayonet charges. It was published as a book around 2000. I only read parts of it and cannot remember the author's name. Short schrift thesis, few modern (western) men are really prepared to stab or slash someone else while looking directly into their eyes.

clwk
01-20-2008, 02:01 PM
Shape shifting is less obvious to we who are cartesian in thought and allude silently to Thomas Hobbe's argument against miracles. But in organic societies, shape shifting can occur in a variety of ways. If we take seriously the reality of Quantum Physics, our Cartesian (mechanistic) thesis might find its antithesis in the old organic metaphor very soon. See John Perkin's work on "Shapeshifting: Shamanic Techniques for Global and Personal Transformation". http://www.johnperkins.org/
Chris, let's leave Quantum Physics out of the discussion. The question in my mind is not whether you or anyone else *can* distort himself into an 'unrecognisable monster' in order to win fights. I have no doubt that could be effective. My question is whether that is a 'good strategy' in the light of other possible considerations. If 'win at all costs and by any means' is the goal, perhaps. But otherwise?

Incidentally, I couldn't find any substantive discussion of 'shapeshifting' on the website you mentioned. However, if the information is akin to 'Quantum Physics', it is probably not on topic here.

Chhi'mèd

Chris Parkerson
01-20-2008, 03:19 PM
John Perkins, in my opinion, is one form of the embodiment of Aikido-style shapeshifting.

Working half his life caught between his love for the indigenous tribes of 3rd world countries and enforcing U.S. policies that, in his view, were counter productive to those same peoples, he began an initial shape-shift in his mind. (his testimony).

He made friends with a Shuar Shaman as well as a Mayan shaman. Both assisted in his reorientation toward a global view of peace and harmony. In his book, he discusses physical shapeshifting as well. His Shuar mentor actually left human orientation to live as a Jaguar.

Perkins uses the phenomenon for good. Hal uses his for good as well, but is quite willing to use lethal force, if necessary, when there is no other way to stop aggression.

With Cuchulain? I have no idea.

I know I have a form of shape shifting I go through that has to do with my specific acashic record. My aura has violet, yellow and violet as its three primary colors.

I have encountered a shift to the "yellow" several times, it makes me concerned about totally giving over to the warrior side, because in this state, I take no prisoners. Brian Adams, the father of Kenpo in San Diego, can attest to this. Nancy Ann Tappe is my resource on specific understanding. In fact, Brian introduced me to her. This is real core information that is both rare to discover yet very improtant to learn about ones' self.

I fear turning into a Cuchulain. I may not return.

clwk
01-20-2008, 04:33 PM
Chris, thanks for your honesty. I will refrain from commenting on the first part of what you wrote -- other than to point out that there is a distinct difference between what is possible and what is a good idea. Most people would probably agree that it is possible to court areas of experience that might be better left alone.


I have encountered a shift to the "yellow" several times, it makes me concerned about totally giving over to the warrior side, because in this state, I take no prisoners. Brian Adams, the father of Kenpo in San Diego, can attest to this. Nancy Ann Tappe is my resource on specific understanding. In fact, Brian introduced me to her. This is real core information that is both rare to discover yet very improtant to learn about ones' self.

I fear turning into a Cuchulain. I may not return.
I guess the Incredible Hulk tried to use his powers for good rather than evil (well, I didn't see the movie and my memory is fuzzy, but I naturally assume so). Still, I remember he used to say, "Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry." Even if I could find a way to make a 'shift to green' and become an invincible mega-strong Hulk, would I want to if it meant possibly losing control of a violent, destructive capacity? How would that be different from the abuse of any other potentially lethal weapon? Isn't 'roid rage' a similar phenomenon, and one totally tangential to a meaningful pursuit of increased athletic performance? I hope you understand these questions in the straightforward, neutral manner I mean them. They are not personal comments but reflections on the question of 'strategy' you have raised for discussion. I believe the risks to which you allude are a real concern for human beings training themselves for violence. This makes me wonder whether it is beneficial to rely on a method which in any way exacerbates these risks. Would not the result of failure be more tragic than any possible outcome resulting from not employing the method?

Chhi'mèd

Chris Parkerson
01-20-2008, 06:19 PM
Phenomena is phenomena. It doesn't go away. It simply is. How it is used is a question for each of us to determine.

One problem I see is the idea that we are all cut from the same cookie cutter. Many of us will do the same thing under similar circumstances, but for very different reasons. Which is more important when I study strategy?? I suggest motivation is more important that overt action. It is there that I truly understand someone else.

I studied with Nancy Ann Tappe for some time. She has the most empirical psychology I have encountered. Not only was it her experience to see the aura colors and to interpret them, she supported her understanding of what the colors meant in terms of life mission, personality traits, values, etc. She defended her program with a PhD. Thesis that included many subject interviews.
Plus, she hits paydirt moreso than most any other folks I have followed that do forecasting. I took her work with me when I studied at the San Diego University for Integrative Studies - A credited university dedicated to the fusion of Tibetan/Western synthesis in Psychology studies. They knew and respected her.

I cannot see the colors she talks about. But I can pretty much discern a person's primary color by the aggregate of their behavior within the first day or so of knowing them. From there, I can pretty well forecast what (1) they will do under various general circumstances and (2) why they are doing it. This stuff is great for developing the empathy for conflict resolution.

George S. Ledyard
01-20-2008, 06:34 PM
Regarding charging forward in battle, Kevin can probably tell us about the study an Army Psychologist Colonel did on the history of bayonet charges. It was published as a book around 2000. I only read parts of it and cannot remember the author's name. Short schrift thesis, few modern (western) men are really prepared to stab or slash someone else while looking directly into their eyes.

Are you possibly referring to:
On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by Col. David Grossman? This sounds like his research... Must read book in my opinion, some points are being debated but a great starting place.

Chris Parkerson
01-20-2008, 06:49 PM
Yes, sensei Ledyard. That is the book. Great stuff to know about people in this book.

By they way, we reviewed some of your videos this weekend at the Mojo.

For those who would like to get a taste of how Nancy Ann Tappe conducted her seminars, see: http://www.sdcitybeat.com/cms/story/detail/?id=429

The only person I have found that comes close to her in forecasting about people and political events is Carlos Barrios, mayan Priest of the Eagle Clan out of Guatemala.

Kevin Leavitt
01-20-2008, 07:01 PM
Yes, I too believe he is referring to the book "On Killing" by David Grossman. That is what came to my mind.

Absolutely, must read for those involved in martial arts IMO.

clwk
01-20-2008, 08:13 PM
For those who would like to get a taste of how Nancy Ann Tappe conducted her seminars, see: http://www.sdcitybeat.com/cms/story/detail/?id=429

The only person I have found that comes close to her in forecasting about people and political events is Carlos Barrios, mayan Priest of the Eagle Clan out of Guatemala.
Chris, I think we've hit the point of diminishing returns in discussing strategy, motivation, action, consequence, effectiveness, etc. Thanks for sharing your perspectives. They were unexpected.

Chhi'mèd

Chris Parkerson
01-20-2008, 08:37 PM
It is my understanding that O Sensei could see auras. I heard that he allowed the aura of an attacking arm push him into irimi and that is how he could blend so well.

Did he use aura in this way. Did he use aura in other strategic ways?

clwk
01-20-2008, 11:18 PM
It is my understanding that O Sensei could see auras. I heard that he allowed the aura of an attacking arm push him into irimi and that is how he could blend so well.

Did he use aura in this way. Did he use aura in other strategic ways?
It's one thing to talk about the intersection between the tactile and visual senses and how that intersection might relate to a skillful sensitivity. It's another thing to extend that idea into categorizing individuals based on their 'auras' (from the linked article: "There are very few blue men. And those that are are women in men's bodies. Very few of them are fathers. But those that are are mothers. Do you understand?"), making political predictions, etc. It's not that I don't think anyone should be allowed to have those ideas, but it seems like a stretch to try to tie those ideas back into a discussion of physical strategy.

I thought we were talking about whether or not it makes sense to purposely transform oneself into an 'unrecognisable monster' in order to win fights. I thought that sounded like it might be a bad idea. If I understood you correctly, you said something to the effect that this strategy was related to the diagnosed color of your 'aura' and your 'akashic records' -- and that you were worried that if you turned into Cuchulain you 'might not return'. I was ready to call it quits, although the worry sounded healthy to me. I'm still not sure whether you think the strategy of 'contorting' oneself into a 'monster' is a good idea or a bad one, but it doesn't seem like you want to talk about that. Since I don't want to talk about the 'color of auras', I thought we might be done.

However, if you can explain to me how the putative ability to sense impending strikes visually (which, actually, seems not to require a terribly-esoteric explanation) relates *in any way* to a position on whether or not attempting to tap into a state of hyper-aggression is in line with Ueshiba's approach, then I would be interested. Or you could say that I've misunderstood your position, and the idea of transforming into a frightening monster was never what you were talking about. Personally, I don't think the hyper-distortedly-aggressive strategy (even if it is militarily valid) necessarily follows from the technical and even perceptual (as you described) clues left in Ueshiba's art. It just doesn't add up to me, but that's okay. I may have misunderstood, but I thought you said earlier that someone shape-shifted themselves into a Jaguar, and that's when I started thinking, "This is too deep for me."

Chhi'mèd

Josh Reyer
01-20-2008, 11:50 PM
I see the conversation has drifted, but on the subject of muto-dori, I found something that might interest folks.

The "inventor" of muto-dori was not Munenori, but rather his father Munetoshi. Muto-dori was essentially a "homework" assignment given to him by Kamiizumi Hidetsuna, the founder of Shinkage-ryu. Upon the successful completion of this assigment, Kamiizumi gave Munetoshi inka (menkyo kaiden). Later, Munetoshi demonstrated it to Tokugawa Ieyasu by letting Ieyasu came after him with a bokuto, and then performing muto-dori.

So, Munetoshi was pretty much an expert in this skill. However, in his retirement he wrote a collection of poems (similar to the Doka of Ueshiba). One of them runs like this:

縛者斬るに劣らぬ無刀さへ十に五つは取られぬるかな
Shibarimono kiru ni otoranu muto sae, tou ni itsutsu wa torarenuru ka na.
"Even when muto(-dori) is easier than cutting bound men,
I suppose it works about five in ten times."

And that's from someone who'd know, I guess. :)

Chris Parkerson
01-20-2008, 11:55 PM
i honestly do not know when I have my mild shape shift. No, I do not turn green. One afternoon, Magyk Serbsiac(former Polish GROM) was hosting SF teams for training at Frontsight. He asked mee and Brian to demonstrate double stick scrimage during lunch.

Brian was kicking my ass. I had no pro lem with that. He had me cornered at the edge of the mats, inches away from where guys wete eating their lunch on tables.

I dropped one of my sticks when my mind lost concentration. I bent down to pick it up. Brian entered and began pounding on my back.

Without hesitation I performed a foreard ikeme tjrough his centerline. It was the only move I had to escape. I sensed I was in control and the maneuver was safe. It took out Brian's knee.

Others in the room said they saw a change in me. Brian had seen it many times. Even after the event, i have a hard time realizing any change took place.

But you are most probably a ta

not inherently understand this "yellow" experience. Less, might you understand how a person with a red aura can throw vases and minutes later act as nothing happened, or a blue aura who will win an argument no matter how illogical by throwing out phychic chaff that gives their adversary a headache. Each of these reactions to attack come from life orientation, much of which is embedded in your acadhic record. Even your insistence on grounded linear logic -quite a tan experience. It makes you the perrineal father figure who provides grounded answers for your children and students. Knowing this and a cluster of other tan traits, i can choose methods of communicating with you on your terms, thus building bridges that lead to understanding and peace if you were to feel threatened. Great stuff for aiki strategy. By the way Tappe was aikidoka.

Chris Parkerson
01-21-2008, 12:10 AM
please be patient with my mispellings, I Phones are finicky and big thumbs don't help.

clwk
01-21-2008, 12:16 AM
But you are most probably a ta

not inherently understand this "yellow" experience. Less, might you understand how a person with a red aura can throw vases and minutes later act as nothing happened, or a blue aura who will win an argument no matter how illogical by throwing out phychic chaff that gives their adversary a headache. Each of these reactions to attack come from life orientation, much of which is embedded in your acadhic record. Even your insistence on grounded linear logic -quite a tan experience. It makes you the perrineal father figure who provides grounded answers for your children and students. Knowing this and a cluster of other tan traits, i can choose methods of communicating with you on your terms, thus building bridges that lead to understanding and peace if you were to feel threatened. Great stuff for aiki strategy. By the way Tappe was aikidoka.
Chris, I appreciate that you are goofing around in order to keep things light, but this last paragraph has shape-shifted to the point that I can't even make out a lot of the words. Our little exchange is probably entertaining some people, but it might be annoying too -- especially when it stops making sense. So on a discussion forum, yes, I favor 'grounded linear logic' -- even at the expense of my warm fuzzy reputation. I'm just trying to follow-up on the precise mindset/skillset behind what initially sounded to me like a 'strong claim'. I am sure, as you point out, that we would get along fine -- better than fine! -- if we met. I'm less interested in threatening or feeling threatened than I am in having a discussion about the *discussable* merits of certain strategies -- particularly since the proffered analysis might actually affect how someone (like myself) with a little less battle experience chooses to approach a situation. I know that makes me a square, but that's just the shape I came in, and apparently it cannot be shifted.

Chhi'mèd

ps: 'perineal' was a good one. I laughed at that. At least there's a little wiggle room there.

clwk
01-21-2008, 12:17 AM
please be patient with my mispellings, I Phones are finicky and big thumbs don't help.
Whoops, I thought it was some kind of aiki strategy. Ai-phones you mean, I think. Well, enjoy my interpretation anyway.

Chris Parkerson
01-21-2008, 01:58 AM
if you had a hard time getting hold of my forearm, one final try in plain English with clear linear words.

I have met shape shitters. I am one since shifting begins with intent. The body follows intent and energy (no) supports it. No I do not advocate becoming a monster to achieve a win in fighting. Those are your words and your paradigm.

Trained fighters should know themselves or suffer the results of their own actions unaware of why they act. Not to study the psyche deeply was your concern, mine is a concern not to study it deeply enough. Knowing ourselves is part of environmental awareness.

clwk
01-21-2008, 08:28 AM
if you had a hard time getting hold of my forearm, one final try in plain English with clear linear words.
Thank you. I do think that is the best way in a discussion forum.


I have met shape shitters. I am one since shifting begins with intent. The body follows intent and energy (no) supports it. No I do not advocate becoming a monster to achieve a win in fighting. Those are your words and your paradigm.
Not mine, really. I was following up on your Cuchulain reference -- with which I was previously unfamiliar. The descriptions of 'riastrad' strike me as perhaps psychologically questionable as a strategy, so I asked follow-up questions. You are the one who brought it up and subsequently described it as something frightening (to you, please correct me if I misunderstood). Since the mythical Cuchulain killed his own son, I don't think it is completely unreasonable to investigate whether this is a paradigm one should adopt.

Trained fighters should know themselves or suffer the results of their own actions unaware of why they act. Not to study the psyche deeply was your concern, mine is a concern not to study it deeply enough. Knowing ourselves is part of environmental awareness.
While we are on the topic of clear linear words, can you explain what you mean by your second sentence above? I am not trying to be awkward, but the total meaning of the sentence is unclear. Are you saying that the risk you wish to avoid is that of 'not studying deeply enough'? I think that is what you are saying, but in order to then make sense of the sentence I have to assume you also meant that the risk I wish to avoid is that of 'studying deeply'. That seems like an unnecessarily polarizing assertion. I have never suggested shying away from study. Indeed these questions are meant as part of an investigation I think should not be avoided. If you do mean to characterize my position as 'fear of study', can you explain how it is that experimenting with 'going ballistic' is a necessary component of 'studying aiki'? I apologize for not using the 'shape-shifting' terminology, but since the phenomenon you describe is so far from commonly-accepted it makes it a bit difficult to base a public conversation on its premises.

Chhi'mèd

Chris Parkerson
01-21-2008, 10:53 AM
Strategy and the Aiki life.

I live on about 5 acres surrounded by farms. No fences and no guard dog. A hundred trees provide ample homes for wildlife. A stream runs though it and cools their throat. I fully enjoy their presence and love to learn their language.

My wife (a blue aura) wants everything to be perfect for the animals setting additional food and water out for them on the porch. I do not mind cleaning the porch for the inevitable difference in our social ways. It allows for my wife's way and the way for the animals to be themselves. This week, in sub zero weather, several feral animals are inside our home. I love learning their language and enjoy their presence. Again, I am a pretty good junior assistant matt cleaner.

Regarding martial ways, I introduce new comers to my dojo with these two comments:

(1)
"The truth in combat is different for each individual. Research your own experience, absorb what is useful, reject the useless, add what is specifically your own, using No Way as Way, having No Limitation as Limitation."

Bruce Lee

(2)
"As a trainer, I have been asked to answer people's questions about martial arts, movement and strategies. My only request is that they question my answers so that their learning can be their own".

Chris Parkerson
jcp1153@aol.com
www.wces.com

George S. Ledyard
01-21-2008, 12:43 PM
By they way, we reviewed some of your videos this weekend at the Mojo.


Hmm... I'm not sure what to think about folks at the "Mojo" reviewing my videos... should I be worried?

Chris Parkerson
01-21-2008, 02:22 PM
Beautiful Movement

Roman Kremianski
01-21-2008, 09:21 PM
The Mojo? That sounds like a pub.

"Yeah, we watch Aikido videos there all the time..."

Ryan Sanford
01-21-2008, 10:16 PM
Hmm... I'm not sure what to think about folks at the "Mojo" reviewing my videos... should I be worried?

LOL.

If I were you, I'd be pretty worried. :hypno:

Chris Parkerson
01-21-2008, 11:06 PM
still on I phone unable to highlight quotes.
insincerity is quite boring. I have told no lies. I have talked to men and women about my life without fear, doubt or hesitation. This is the food I offer. You are welcome to it.

To shit on my porch with disrespect tells allot about your strategy of love and harmony. It also says allot about how ready we as a nation are to truly confront peace in a time that is most critical.

How can we hope to understand other cultures when we judge that which is outside our immediate circle so quickly. Is this not the beginning of violence? Deminish the "other" with ridicule. Then it is easy to fly over with bombs.

Two years ago I sat in the presence of the Minister of Religious Affairs from Saidu Arabia. The head Wahabi. He preached to me while his family watched. He had ccancer. He died 3 months later on the same bed he laid on when speaking to me.

I not only heard his voice, "the voice of the other" but I went further. Like the Shuar Shaman, I became him for a few minutes. We had more in common than you would think. There is hope.

I beg you folks. Be sincere. Open up to the "other". Get envilved, not with armchair polemics, but with sincere praxis. Then strategy will support love and harmony.

Roman Kremianski
01-21-2008, 11:38 PM
You feeling okay Chris?

antonis paps
01-26-2008, 09:34 AM
I suspect that 10 people will give 10 different answers. I would like to hear what folks have to say.

Harmony.

To be calm and follow the flow.

Chris Parkerson
01-26-2008, 01:46 PM
harmony and love seem to come up allot.

If we harmonize with someone's movement in kata, can this also work well in finding how to unpack an issue in interpersonal relations? How about in dealing with one's own personal introspection (facing fears, doubts and other demons)?

How about in handling litigation in court as a trial lawyer or foreign policy debates as a statesman?

Where does love come into the strategy?

antonis paps
02-01-2008, 08:25 PM
harmony and love seem to come up allot.

If we harmonize with someone's movement in kata, can this also work well in finding how to unpack an issue in interpersonal relations? How about in dealing with one's own personal introspection (facing fears, doubts and other demons)?

How about in handling litigation in court as a trial lawyer or foreign policy debates as a statesman?

Where does love come into the strategy?

I am not sure I 've understood what you have said.
My english is not so good
I never said love.
What i tend to believe, is , that training's goal
besides harmony in movement, tai sabaki,
and tecnique, is to free your mind of thoughts.
That is what i meant by calm.
Now the big question, is how do you make with practice,
Aikido a second nature to you.
How do you prepare your mind to shut off,
How do you make movement(your reaction), your thought.
I guess there can be many answers.
I 've thought about it and I would like your comment on my opinion.
I liked what you have said about the trial layer.
A helpful question would be, how do you deal with a stressful situation.
Well you create the a placebo situation at the dojo.
You can put all sorts of un- Aikido not-correct stuff.
Learning to face the placebo situation in the dojo,
could maybe help when facing the real one.
That could be a fight, or...in court.

The good thing about harmony, is that it has two sides.

Kevin Leavitt
02-02-2008, 03:02 PM
You train over and over and over again, till your responses and actions become a part of you, you commit it to muscle memory to an autonomic response, where you no longer have to think about it.

Like touching a hot stove. You don't think, you simple do.

Your mind works on many different levels. It never really shuts off, but you train till you instinctively don't think about certain things any longer, you just do them. Once you are there things slow down alot, and you have time and space to think about other things that are more important!

I don't believe it is in terms of thinking so much as focus. Focus on "one point" that is, not many.

Chris Parkerson
02-02-2008, 06:05 PM
[QUOTE=Kevin Leavitt;198482]You train over and over and over again, till your responses and actions become a part of you, you commit it to muscle memory to an autonomic response, where you no longer have to think about it.
...snip...
you instinctively don't think about certain things any longer, you just do them. Once you are there things slow down alot, and you have time and space to think about other things that are more important!
QUOTE]

You are on the money Kevin, as always. Now let's fine tune the idea and look closely at streamlining training methods.

Mosts systems in Aikido and Aikijujitsu focus on training through a curriculum of techniques. many are redundant. daito had over 4,000 techniques, hardly a wartime art. Most of the techniques were probably added during peacetime.

Who can train even 64 (Judo curriculum) techniques into muscle memory? Most Judoka/wrestlers/etc. train one or two favorite techniques and then train into muscle memory how to get the opponent into the right position to do the technique under any circumstances.

I know some Tomiki guys that can use all 18 techniques under speed and at will in Rondori.

The muscle memory is your subconscious "in basket" all your other stuff is still conscious theory that is stuck in the archives file.
I place the following principles into my "in basket" rather than techniques.

Kenematics - what I must do as a body that is in motion while attached to and contolling another body to acquire efficient dynamics; allowing gravity, momentum, centripital force, centrifugal force and friction to accomplist the task.

Geometry - where are the throwing points? I have learned 20 on the base plane (2 dimensional). I am learning 3 dimensional. Wow, the points are infinite and work by feel.

A smidgin of sports physiology - I have seven basic unstable postures I watch for. If I get one of them, it is time to take balance.

These are real keepers. I throw without much conscious thought at all. Many people have said some of my throws do not resemble Aikido. I am not sure what they mean:

1) That it is not recognizable in a traditional Aikido curriculum?
2) That the principles I am using are not Aikido?

Nevertheless, It is not so much me that throws as much as it is that the throw occurs as I identify two or three things in a given second without overcommitting to any one angle or technique.

Chris Parkerson
02-02-2008, 06:07 PM
[QUOTE=Kevin Leavitt;198482]You train over and over and over again, till your responses and actions become a part of you, you commit it to muscle memory to an autonomic response, where you no longer have to think about it.
...snip...
you instinctively don't think about certain things any longer, you just do them. Once you are there things slow down alot, and you have time and space to think about other things that are more important!
QUOTE]

You are on the money Kevin, as always. Now let's fine tune the idea and look closely at streamlining training methods.

Mosts systems in Aikido and Aikijujitsu focus on training through a curriculum of techniques. many are redundant. daito had over 4,000 techniques, hardly a wartime art. Most of the techniques were probably added during peacetime.

Who can train even 64 (Judo curriculum) techniques into muscle memory? Most Judoka/wrestlers/etc. train one or two favorite techniques and then train into muscle memory how to get the opponent into the right position to do the technique under any circumstances.

I know some Tomiki guys that can use all 18 techniques under speed and at will in Randori.

The muscle memory is your subconscious "in basket" all your other stuff is still conscious theory that is stuck in the archives file.
I place the following principles into my "in basket" rather than techniques.

Kinematics - what I must do as a body that is in motion while attached to and contolling another body to acquire efficient dynamics; allowing gravity, momentum, centripetal force, centrifugal force and friction to acomplish the task.

Geometry - where are the throwing points? I have learned 20 on the base plane (2 dimensional). I am learning 3 dimensional. Wow, the points are infinite and work by feel.

A smidgin of sports physiology - I have seven basic unstable postures I watch for. If I get one of them, it is time to take balance.

These are real keepers. I throw without much conscious thought at all. Many people have said some of my throws do not resemble Aikido. I am not sure what they mean:

1) That it is not recognizable in a traditional Aikido curriculum?
2) That the principles I am using are not Aikido?

Nevertheless, It is not so much me that throws as much as it is that the throw occurs as I identify two or three things in a given second without overcommitting to any one angle or technique.

Bill Dockery
02-20-2008, 09:35 PM
Chris,

I’d never suggest I could teach anyone but I wanted to offer another angle to the “strategy” of Aikido.

If someone wanted to learn how to do well in a fight, you could practice any martial art. Literally any art will do.

I interpret Ueshiba’s intent for founding Aikido was to change the mindset of the martial artist. To get into the heads of those that were taking it upon themselves to act as judge, jury, and executioner.

The persons Ueshiba taught already knew how to “dominate”, “control”, “neutralize”, or even quickly dispatch their opponent. These abilities could have applied in legally justified manner, but were an application of their own will. I think O-sensei wanted better for them.

The “strategy” seems to be harmonizing with the Tao in such a way that the attacker gets back what he puts in and nothing more. Kharma does not judge. Kharma is not at fault for the result of someone else’s actions. Kharma is simply the “return to sender” messenger delivering a reflection of what was originally offered. Kharma remains intact and unblemished, even when the result is as severe as death.

I’m not very worldly or diverse in my direct exposure to many martial arts, but in the few that I have been exposed to, I suggest that the principles of entering, kuzushi, locking, striking, etc. are present in all of them.

What sets Aikido apart is the goal of being in the conflict, but not “of” the conflict. The outcome should be a result of natural law instead of how we feel it should it resolve.

The “strategy” of Aikido seems to be “Be Kharma”. Otherwise we’d call it some other martial art.

Chris Parkerson
02-20-2008, 10:42 PM
I think you are onto something Bill. That is why I prefer Aiki arts as well. I just give someone what they want. No contention. Just help them along in the direction they want to go.

I liken it to being the ticket taker on the train. The decide where they want to go and I just punch the ticket.

But I really do not want to build bad karma punching "tickets to hell" even when they want it badly. Maybe that is why I pray for peace so often.

Kevin Leavitt
02-21-2008, 04:49 AM
Chris I have rethought that logic lately. A few weeks ago in Gerrmany I gave a champion stone thrower (guy can throw 300KG stones) "What he wanted" in my normal fashion of doing stuff.

He took it, and never gave it back! Not one ounce of knowledge of ANY martial art. Just strength, conditioning, speed, agility, and good instincts in how to use that.

I go back to what one of my Instructors always said, "always attack, always win!". "Ukemi is for the other guy", "if you have time to block, you have time to strike".

I think you have to be careful about what you do give.

certainly I think it is okay to create the perception of giving, only to let them fall into that hole.

However, I found that one day, you will find a guy who will take the "gift" and never give it back, and keep taking more.

It is an interesting paradox when you consider how aiki philosophy seems to tell us to give first, or to seek to understand before being understood.

Not always the best approach in my experiences!

DonMagee
02-21-2008, 05:59 AM
My aikido instructor always says the goal is to take the center and their balance and never give it back. I think that goes inline with what your instructor is saying.

Of course that is better then my current aiki tactics, which is hold hands, dance, and ultimately fumble and use judo.

Ron Tisdale
02-21-2008, 08:07 AM
The "strategy" seems to be harmonizing with the Tao in such a way that the attacker gets back what he puts in and nothing more.

Hmm...so how does that statement jive with what Ueshiba Sensei said about [paraphrasing] "in real aikido the attacker would be killed", not wanting to show a lie to the emporer, or Yukawa having his arm broken in a demonstration?

Just currious...

Best,
Ron

Chris Parkerson
02-21-2008, 08:38 AM
Kevin Wrote:

Chris I have rethought that logic lately. A few weeks ago in Gerrmany I gave a champion stone thrower (guy can throw 300KG stones) "What he wanted" in my normal fashion of doing stuff.

He took it, and never gave it back! Not one ounce of knowledge of ANY martial art. Just strength, conditioning, speed, agility, and good instincts in how to use that.

Bill is coming up for a big promotional test soon. He has picked Shawn, a Penjak Silat/Kali player who is also one of the finest global tea masters I have ever met. Shawn has never owned a driver's licesnse and bikes wherever he goes -a pure, sinewey athlete with a warrior's mind. Shawn spent 17 years wielding a gaff and gutting fish on a boat in Alaska. He takes falls for no one unless they truly make him fall. While Shawn is relatively new to Aiki arts, he is a champion stick fighter in the Arnold Classic Games in Columbus, OH.

His winning fight was against a monster who would take and give up nothing. Shawn is about 160 pounds. When the brute threw him for the third time, Shawn placed the punyo (butt) of the stick in his hand and welded his hand to his rib cage. The guy empailed himself on the punyo and the fight was over.

Shawn gave the guy what he wanted and then... took him further than he wanted to go.

I know this is much harder to do in a sport Jujitsu contest. I have had my share of them in the mid 1990's. But if we throw sport to the wind and focus on street, I could do the same as Shawn did using my left thumb, for, as Shawn Connery once said, "my right one is much too powerful". The Presidio (1988)


By the way, how did the competitions go? To bad you were shackled in a sport venue. I sense that you are the kind of warrior that would have fishooked him and bit him where he is most afraid of being bit, if it were the real you and the venue was "training your troops".

Then again, I guess some folks really want to go to hell and there is no alternative but to punch their ticket. I have just been lucky about that kind of karma, I guess.

Bill Dockery
02-21-2008, 08:23 PM
Hmm...so how does that statement jive with what Ueshiba Sensei said about [paraphrasing] "in real aikido the attacker would be killed", not wanting to show a lie to the emporer, or Yukawa having his arm broken in a demonstration?

Just currious...

Best,
Ron

I never said he was perfect. Just that I thought that was his intent. If it wasn't, I still like the approach. :)

Chris Parkerson
02-21-2008, 09:11 PM
Go you Bill for choosing Shawn as uke.
he will make an honest man out of anyone's movement.
I hope to be in town cheering you on.
I will buy the tea when you are done.

Carl Thompson
02-21-2008, 11:34 PM
If someone wanted to learn how to do well in a fight, you could practice any martial art. Literally any art will do.

I interpret Ueshiba's intent for founding Aikido was to change the mindset of the martial artist. To get into the heads of those that were taking it upon themselves to act as judge, jury, and executioner.

The persons Ueshiba taught already knew how to "dominate", "control", "neutralize", or even quickly dispatch their opponent. These abilities could have applied in legally justified manner, but were an application of their own will. I think O-sensei wanted better for them.

The "strategy" seems to be harmonizing with the Tao in such a way that the attacker gets back what he puts in and nothing more. Kharma does not judge. Kharma is not at fault for the result of someone else's actions. Kharma is simply the "return to sender" messenger delivering a reflection of what was originally offered. Kharma remains intact and unblemished, even when the result is as severe as death.

I'm not very worldly or diverse in my direct exposure to many martial arts, but in the few that I have been exposed to, I suggest that the principles of entering, kuzushi, locking, striking, etc. are present in all of them.

What sets Aikido apart is the goal of being in the conflict, but not "of" the conflict. The outcome should be a result of natural law instead of how we feel it should it resolve.

The "strategy" of Aikido seems to be "Be Kharma". Otherwise we'd call it some other martial art.

For what it's worth, I also like this post very much. It reminded me of something a sensei once told me about Aikido not just being a case of blending one's technique with that of one's opponent, but also a blend of your kokoro (heart/mind) with your partner's kokoro.

The same sensei told us the story of a tonosama (feudal lord) who witnessed a competition between a huge sumo wrestler and a much smaller bushi . The tonosama assumed the sumotori would win the contest because of his size and training. The fight began with the bushi immediately stabbing the sumo in the heart with a short knife. The tonosama cried "That was unfair!" The warrior said "that's budo". If you have rules, it is not a true competition. It is not "shinken". Real conflict has no rules.

That's where the Tao comes into play -- seeking a path that avoids conflict. As a form of budo, breaking arms and killing are not off the menu in Aikido, but these things are not done in order to win a conflict. You win before you start: Masakatsu agatsu -- true victory is self victory.

regards

Carl

Kevin Leavitt
02-22-2008, 05:26 AM
I am curious what others perspective is on what it means to "neutralize an attack"? or to "blend with it".

Aikibu
02-22-2008, 12:23 PM
Hey,

A simple description for me would be to place you and your uke in a position where his technique cannot harm anyone other than himself hence nutralizing it and I try to do this by blending aka Irimi aka entering...Think of a bull fighter with a cape entering the empty space between him and the bull...No matter how much the bull tries to attack the Matador is safe from harm and has control.

Hopefully that makes sense. LOL

William Hazen

Kevin Leavitt
02-22-2008, 03:50 PM
Yes it makes sense, however this is the very thought I am trying to resolve in my mind right now. Blending doesn't seem to resolve anything at all. Yes, you avoid the bull, but he is still "in the fight".

Also, what are the mechanics of the neutralization. That is, what are the standard conditions that must be in place for neutralization to be in effect?

Certainly irimi is an option, and a good one if you cannot handle the bull!

But are you really blending as you enter during or after the irimi, or is there something else going on?

mathewjgano
02-22-2008, 07:09 PM
Blending doesn't seem to resolve anything at all. Yes, you avoid the bull, but he is still "in the fight".
I agree with the idea that blending itself doesn't resolve the fight...unless you mean blending to include the wills too. I think it was described pretty clear in another thread that simply avoiding an attack isn't aiki. When the bull eventually gets tired and stops the attack, that's when the conflict gets resolved.
I'd say blending physically is the "easy" part. Removing the will to attack is much more difficult.

But are you really blending as you enter during or after the irimi, or is there something else going on?
I can't speak for William's take on it of course, but I'd say that ideally one ought be blending throughout: before contact, during contact, and after contact has been removed so if another attack is launched, you're already in position.
Hope that's along the lines of what you're looking for.

Kevin Leavitt
02-22-2008, 07:40 PM
Not looking for anything in particular, just trying to see what other's perceptions of this are.

Chris Parkerson
02-23-2008, 01:06 PM
Kevin wrote:

what are the mechanics of the neutralization. That is, what are the standard conditions that must be in place for neutralization to be in effect?

Certainly irimi is an option, and a good one if you cannot handle the bull!

But are you really blending as you enter during or after the irimi, or is there something else going on?

Kevin,

I think there IS something in particular. I mentioned it once before in the "Strategy in Aikido" posts. I make a discinction between unbalancing someone (reducing their base) and making someone "unstable".

When I enter or "At first touch" when he enters, I want to control the uke's (1) balance and (2) stability. I think this is why I can do techniques slowly and uke cannot easily recover from the motion. If I only control his balance, he can create a new base and the fight is equal again.

I have three videos upcoming that I will post. We mainly filmed them to show how one hand can do the aiki with one hand and the other hand "bounces" the uke with the "freight train-style" power (kinetic energy).

I do the tecyniques slowly. Bill Dockery is a great uke for this as his body reacts well on camera. Every movement I make has a direct effect upon him. No wasted motion.... No portion of my movement without an equal and opposite reaction that gains more of his (1) balance or (2) stability.

I will post them tomorrow.

mathewjgano
02-23-2008, 03:48 PM
Not looking for anything in particular, just trying to see what other's perceptions of this are.

I'm not sure if you already described it and I missed it, but what's your take on it?

mathewjgano
02-23-2008, 04:04 PM
When I enter or "At first touch" when he enters, I want to control the uke's (1) balance and (2) stability.

Hi Chris,
could the stability you describe controling also be described along the lines of binding uke's body? Not in a full on pin per se, but still creating enough of a thinning of uke's structural integrity that their power cannot recover sufficiently?
Not that I've got much skill at aiki, but when I get the sense I've initiated a techique well, I also have the feeling I can change directions and move uke around me and use them as a shield, more or less at will...as long as they keep extending through their legs and don't collapse or completely lose their balance and go the way of gravity.
What do you think?
Cheers,
Matt

mathewjgano
02-23-2008, 04:25 PM
...Blending doesn't seem to resolve anything at all. Yes, you avoid the bull, but he is still "in the fight".

I've been thinking about this some more in terms of the :triangle: :circle: :square: . Please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe :triangle: includes the method of entry/connection; :circle: includes the method of remaining connected/musubi and blending; and :square: includes the method of gaining complete control (an explosive or exponential quality), usually by way of pin or projection. They're incomplete concepts in my mind, but with what I'm able to apply, they make me think blending (:circle: ) is part of the formula. That for aikiwaza to happen, there must be that :square: in which the harmonized/blended force of nage is explosive or somehow exponentially increased in nature; which happens through the musubi/connection.
...Maybe a bit abstract...

Chris Parkerson
02-23-2008, 05:40 PM
could the stability you describe controling also be described along the lines of binding uke's body? Not in a full on pin per se, but still creating enough of a thinning of uke's structural integrity that their power cannot recover sufficiently?

Yes, That's a good word for it. It took about three years to get decent with it. I had been exposed to it while training in Daito Ryu but couldn't figure it out. John Clodig trained me in it. Yanagi Hara Ryu.

Kevin Leavitt
02-23-2008, 06:11 PM
Matthew,

I don't have a take on it right now....thought I did, but know I am re-evaluating things some. At this point I am lacking words to quantify or objectify what I think is going on.

Also, not sure these days how important it is to mentally/verbally explain it, or if you can! that is, from a holistic point of view.

I am starting to see issues with reductionist definitions that try and distill things down to basic 1,2,3, "this is what is going on".

The flip side is this: "it is like water running over a rock". Doesn't really tell you much in the way of being helpful!

Aikibu
02-23-2008, 06:14 PM
Yes it makes sense, however this is the very thought I am trying to resolve in my mind right now. Blending doesn't seem to resolve anything at all. Yes, you avoid the bull, but he is still "in the fight".

Also, what are the mechanics of the neutralization. That is, what are the standard conditions that must be in place for neutralization to be in effect?

Certainly irimi is an option, and a good one if you cannot handle the bull!

But are you really blending as you enter during or after the irimi, or is there something else going on?

A key principle of our Aikido is "The fight is over at the moment of contact." How we do this is with irimi. Should the uke wish to continue then we progress through a technique to it's end point. At every point in irimi/blending you are safe from harm and the uke is exposed...Our Hanmi/Stance and foot work are closer to Daito Ryu in concept then Aikido as though we were in Ken te Ken.We use a half step and keep our axis centered on the Uke's axis. So... continuing with the Bullfight anology the Bull will continue to try and attack but the Matadors position enables him to inflict damage and "tire" the bull out at the same time The more he bull tries to attack the swifter the resolution becomes...At every point of "blending" the Nage can strike or throw while the Uke cannot...

If you get the chance Kevin there are quite a few Youtube videos out now of Shoji Nishio Shihan and his students demonstrating the principles of "irimi/blending."

Every one of our "irimi's" starts with an Atemi in order to "take the ukes mind" and enter into the technique.... as Shoji Nishio has said another key principle of proper Aikido is to execute it with the rythem and flow of Atemi.

Over the years we've continue to try and modify and improve our Aikido so that it is effective against other Martial and Grappling Arts. Our "ground waza" still needs allot of work in my opinion but the Senior Yudansha are taking steps to understand the newer methods and improve our Aikido's effectiveness so we can preserve Aikido's relevance as a Martial Art.

I understand this may be an oversimplification but I am working on trying to articulate these concepts so that the reader my understand what the heck it is I am trying to describe. LOL

William Hazen

Kevin Leavitt
02-23-2008, 06:35 PM
Thanks William, I understand your point of view and perspective on this. I don't disagree.

I will check out the videos hopefully tonight!

Erick Mead
02-23-2008, 09:42 PM
I've been thinking about this some more in terms of the :triangle: :circle: :square: . ...
:triangle: includes the method of entry/connection;

:circle: includes the method of remaining connected/musubi and blending; and

:square: includes the method of gaining complete control (an explosive or exponential quality), usually by way of pin or projection. ...
think blending (circle) is part of the formula. ... there must be that (square) in which the harmonized/blended force of nage is explosive or somehow exponentially increased in nature; which happens through the musubi/connection.

...what are the mechanics of the neutralization. That is, what are the standard conditions that must be in place for neutralization to be in effect?
Certainly irimi is an option, and a good one if you cannot handle the bull!
But are you really blending as you enter during or after the irimi, or is there something else going on?I have thought about this a great deal -- often at greater length out loud than most have patience for. But doing so has brought me to a summation in these terms:

Triangle relates to Irimi and Kuzushi: Balance is deflected to its external limits of stability by direct entry - visualised as a wedge, or plow -- kiri-otoshi or suri-otoshi -- fundamentally tangential action. Even in yokomenuchi uchi-mawari entries, contact of one hand with the advancing strike forms a triangle with the countering hand striking uke, like the wedge or plow -- carrying his balance to its uttermost limit.

Circle relates to Tenkan and Tsukuri -- Momentum is further directed and converted tangentially or centripetally (tenkan) to alter the plane of rotation or potential rotation (moment) (both fundamentally right-angle concepts- i.e - Juji) in three dimensions -- that produces three dimensional spiral paths.

Square relates to Juji and Kake -- The momentum may be constrained radially or tangentially (respectively, the uprights and crossmembers of the square) and in that regard constrained either inward or outward in affect (the opposed parallels of the square) the to the point of an inevitable release either of projection nage-waza or reduction of the connection (osae-waza youch).

Some more practical observations:

:triangle: One point of said triangle is directly aimed at uke's center, one at nage's center and one away from both. A triangle is rigid and points in one of these three ways depending on the sense of emphasis on the other two. Uke can cover one or two but never all three, because he only has two points of support.

Triangles literally point the way if you see them. From that example, consider the triangle formed by the connections in the yokomenuchi uchi mawari entry :: uke and nage's joined hands -- uke's arm connected at his body -- and nage's hand connecting to uke's body in atemi.

If uke's striking energy in the hand is relatively strong -- the counter-atemi point of the triangle at uke's center shows the way to iriminage or whatever else you find there.

If his connection is relatively strengthened at that point to deflect nage's counterstrike, then the point of the triangle where uke's attacking hand joins nage's blending hand shows the way. It points him further out of his center into sumiotoshi or whatever you like.

Or, if he strengthens both of his points simultaneously (trying to stop and reassess, essentially), the point of the triangle at nage's center shows the way and nage moves his own center out and across -- the classic set up for shihonage, kokyunage, or what have you.

Similar relationships (sometimes squashed in a certain dimension) can be found that tie other engagements into the same basic entry principle.

:circle: Even when those 3d spirals are squashed into a single two dimensional plane curve there is still strong moment (rotation potential) that wants to break the plane and so there is hidden reserve of physical response along the suppressed plane of motion that is quite literally not perceptible until uke tries to go there, only to find a wall already poised and falling on him.

:square: While the crossing moments and the boundary of gravity and ground are stable ( antoerh set of images for the square), the constraint of the square is only critically stable. If need be, the square figure can still collapse catastrophically into release in shear sideways (image of the square racking sideways and the side toppling together). In reality, it happens along the third plane of spiral orientation, (the image of a stick figure cube racking and collapsing in torsional shear, or the Daito-ryu image of asagao - the opening and closing of morning glory blossom) With that additional rotation potential, more reduction/projection/destruction remains to be delivered, if necessary.

In osae-waza, the momentum making up the 3d spiral motion is critically constrained through the connection in a progressively damped fashion (the opposite of releasing it) transforming the momentum of body rotation into moment ( potential for rotation) -- simultaneous moments in two planes (thus the square image) bounded by the ground and gravity, making movement structurally impossible.

mathewjgano
02-23-2008, 11:06 PM
At this point I am lacking words to quantify or objectify what I think is going on.

Hi Kevin,
I hear you on that! I have such a vague sense of what is going on most of the time that I'm pretty unconfident whenever I really try to articulate my take on things. I can usually feel the difference, so my training is usually one of gaining "body-feel," but when it comes to descriptions...I'm left wanting.
Eric,
thanks for the descriptions! They're definately more in depth than I can muster right now. Good food for thought! At times I have a hard time utilizing the triangle circle square concepts because they take a certain degree of imagination that can be very difficult to make useful. Abstractions like those are particularly difficult for westerners perhaps too. Still, I find they do create an interesting contrast. I liken them to being top-down in approach to learning, where the more scientific approach Kevin was describing is bottom-up. I try to use both with the idea of approaching understanding from both ends, but I have to admit one seems to take a lot more mental energy.
Anyhoo...I'm tired and tomorrow I get to go jump in glacier run-off half naked so: pleasant dreams everyone (daydreams for those of you in the middle of your day)!
Take care,
Matt

Aiki1
02-23-2008, 11:45 PM
At this level (technical) I work with three things - loss of balance where an attempt at recovery can occur, loss of balance where there is no way to recover, and a loss of structural integrity where there is no way to recover. For me, this is done through two processes, depending on the nature of the attack - either full on, or more controlled.

If full on attack, the process I teach is Musubi - Tsukuri - Kuzushi - Release. In the process of Musubi (connection and flow), my positioning and angles (part of Tsukuri) allow for the Kuzushi (my definition is allowing someone to lose their balance) to take place, then one just releases what ever anchor Nage is giving them and they fall.

If the attack is more "sophisticated" meaning not over-extended etc., the process becomes Connect - Blend - Track - Lead - Resolve. This can take a little more time, because Nage must process the interaction such that through tracking Uke's movement, speed etc., Uke "tells" nage exactly where the Avenue of Release (as I think of it) is as the interaction unfolds, and thus Kuzushi etc. happens.

Loss of structural integrity is a little more subtle, in a sense, in that Uke doesn't necessarily perceive why the loss is happening, he just experiences falling down, or more often, collapsing down or inward....

All of the above, for me, depend on what we term "Kinesthetic Invisibility" - the skill of not giving any reference to Uke as a result of "proper Aiki" i.e., at this level, Musubi and Tracking - thus there is nothing for Uke to react to, nor is Nage "doing anything" per se, to Uke. Nage is "going along 'with' the ride" and allowing a somewhat different outcome to occur than originally intended by the attacker.

As far as Square, Circle, and Triangle, for me they flow into each other - Nage starts in the Square, aware of the eight directions that are possible for attack - moves into a Triangle entry for proper position and angle, and then allows the Circle - or actually Sphere - to manifest, which is the proper execution of Technique, or in my mind, the Release.

This addresses some of the "physical" elements - for me there are other levels that can be taken into account as well.... emotional, mental, energetic, and spiritual....

Anyway, just a few random thoughts.... :)

Chris Parkerson
02-24-2008, 07:50 AM
If full on attack, the process I teach is Musubi - Tsukuri - Kuzushi - Release. In the process of Musubi (connection and flow), my positioning and angles (part of Tsukuri) allow for the Kuzushi (my definition is allowing someone to lose their balance) to take place, then one just releases what ever anchor Nage is giving them and they fall.

If the attack is more "sophisticated" meaning not over-extended etc., the process becomes Connect - Blend - Track - Lead - Resolve. This can take a little more time, because Nage must process the interaction such that through tracking Uke's movement, speed etc., Uke "tells" nage exactly where the Avenue of Release (as I think of it) is as the interaction unfolds, and thus Kuzushi etc. happens.

Loss of structural integrity is a little more subtle, in a sense, in that Uke doesn't necessarily perceive why the loss is happening, he just experiences falling down, or more often, collapsing down or inward....

Wonderful words. I love your imagery.

Aikibu
02-24-2008, 11:36 AM
Anyway, just a few random thoughts.... :)

What He said. Good Post and more along the line of what I was trying to explain to Kevin.

The Circle Square Triangle "concept" is something that was taught to me along time ago first in Judo and then in Aikido It's what I was trying to illustrate with my Bullfighting anology...

Thanks for the excellent refresher folks. :)

William Hazen

Chris Parkerson
02-29-2008, 06:42 PM
Here is my version of strategy...

enter, disrupt stability, take balance, use aiki-no-jutsu if you need it, and punch if the other stuff does not get the results you wanted.

Soft Aiki with Hsingi-style Atemi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-gG_loRZGI

Soft left sided/handed aiki techniques without Hsing-I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIc2uYPtrPQ&feature=related

Kevin Leavitt
02-29-2008, 08:20 PM
Chris,

I know we are just using words here. Semantics play a big part.

Chris, how does disrupt stabiilty differ from taking balance in your eyes?

If you mean disrupt stability, then would that not involve the threat of atemi?

If you don't get the desired results from that (balance), then wouldn't that result in "punch" at that point? If punch works, it works right? If it works, then you get balance (or knock out) This would be defined as success (depending on your application of ethics).

If you are not successful, then you have to move on to something else until you get the desired result, if not then you have problems that you now have to over come.

I guess my point is, that in my mind I don't delineate my "fight plan" into such categories.

That is "do aikido" if that fails...punch.

My fight plan is as follows: (Assuming I am in a position to do so).

Enter. This means close the distance on him. If you can't do this, then it means he has closed the distance on you. If this happens you must move on to defense and/or regaining balance/dominance.

Achieve Dominance. This would equate to "taking center" "balance" whatever.

End the fight. This can be from pins, submissions, control, or rendering him unconscious in some way. It is inclusive of the ethics of aikido's principles of conflict resolution if you so choose or have the skills to enforce.

I am sure that you do the same and it is semantics.

To me, this is the hierarchy that is followed universally in conflict.

If you violate this hierarchy, you will not be successful (or you may not have a fight :))

Dominance or control is the key. Either you have it or you don't. If you don't then you either have parity or he has dominance. If you have parity, then you are going to slug it out until someone achieves it. Granted it may be quick if a haymaker is thrown and it results in a knock out. So you could blow through this step quickly to the end. For the most part though, strategy should be to achieve dominance/control. Trying to slug it out (parity) is risky.

You continue on that path Close, Control, Finish.

Saying well I would use aikido...unless it didn't work..then I'd punch is disjointed to me.

It assumes that the atemi or martial presence is not there and then you have to default to something that is external to that process.

If your strategy is failing, you need to return back to the loop in the process.

Now in fairness to Chris, it is semantics. I know what he is saying.

If it is failing, then he would use punches to gain space, disrupt, and atempt to regain control...OR get lucky and get a K.O.

I do think it is important to realize that there is a process that we follow in fighting and aikido and it is a complete loop.

In my mind, we don't work it, then if it fails abandon it..rinse, wash, and repeat!

Chris Parkerson
02-29-2008, 08:53 PM
Kevin,
Just having some fun. But, as usual, putting a small truth into it.

Good aiki effects both the opponent's stability and then takes balance. If stability is not taken, and you take balance, the opponent can re-balance. I am sure we are just caught in semantics and overthinking my joke.

But so many initial atemi do not really set up uke for a good throw just like poor aiki does not set someone up for a throw. You know as well as I, folks can take allot of punishment if they are standing in a fight stance and well balanced.

But good aiki should set up uke. So, in the video, I just put the punch last for fun and to show how kuzushi aids in a Tai Chi uproot (or down root).

It also helps me to use a system of escalation that is reasonable in my job -- not being under color of law or under the Nato rules of engagement.

Kevin Leavitt
02-29-2008, 09:39 PM
Chris I understand....it makes for a good discussion though.

You are correct that there are people that can take alot of punishment of course, that will take a hit and not do what you wanted them to. That is why we have other means, like judo type throws, single/double legs, clinch, and taking their back.

The fact remains though that we can't move on to resolving (finishing) until we achieve dominance/control. This is especially true if indeed your punches are not working!

As far as escalation of force...you can apply that along the model of close, control, finish. It all depends on your skill level, training, weapons and of course, situational luck!

Stefan Stenudd
03-01-2008, 02:08 AM
What is the essential strategy in Aikido technique?
There is nothing unique with my take on it, but here it is, anyway:

Any technique starts with a taisabaki evasion - not with the intention to get away from the attack, but to let it pass.

Next step is to lead the attack on, always initially in its original direction (again not to obstruct it). That is a way of joining with it.

Thirdly, I guide the attack to a peaceful ending, enjoyable for both of us.

So, the three steps are: accept, join, and guide.

One could also say that an aikido technique is a transformation of a fight into a dance :)

Chris Parkerson
03-01-2008, 02:13 PM
Chris I understand....it makes for a good discussion though.

You are correct that there are people that can take alot of punishment of course, that will take a hit and not do what you wanted them to. That is why we have other means, like judo type throws, single/double legs, clinch, and taking their back.

The fact remains though that we can't move on to resolving (finishing) until we achieve dominance/control. This is especially true if indeed your punches are not working!

As far as escalation of force...you can apply that along the model of close, control, finish. It all depends on your skill level, training, weapons and of course, situational luck!

I like the idea of "close, control, finish". You are right that Judo/(standing) Jujitsu uses the "reaps" to assist in this paradigm. In a "mass attack" Judo and Jujitsu can get over-entangled with one person while the rest of the attackers maul you. This is seen all the time in Krav Maga, military Sambo, etc. Too much entanglement.

Aiki arts are the fix. But it takes a long while to get good at it. More fluidity, less entanglement. My point of interest is that it really is not pure aikijujutsu or aiki-no-jutsu unless you get the first two elements on first contact (balance and stability). This is the hard study. The points of fighting that I sent you earlier, they are the same as external Jutsu. But each one is like one of those russian eggs. You open the egg and a smaller egg is inside. ad infinitum. There is the real Aiki study.