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ChS_23
01-06-2008, 11:04 AM
One of my former sensei taught us that rolled-up sleeves had the same meaning as putting the right side of your uwagi over the left side.
...so don't do it...

I have the feeling that he was right. Not necessary by "the meaning" but that rolled-up sleeves would rarely be a good idea.

As this is a question of etiquette, I would like to ask you to just answer the following questions:

1) Do you know any picture or video of O-Sensei wearing rolled-up sleeves?

2) Do you know any written down rules which deal with the question of rolled-up sleeves? (especially books...)

MikeLogan
01-06-2008, 12:58 PM
Ask the sensei in question for a primary document stating such.

Just kidding, really, but on a serious note it is common to roll up the sleeve on the side of the body where an individual is dealing with injury, recovering, or taking it easy, etc, etc.

Rolling up both sleeves seems more to the point that your dogi sleeves are too long. :D There are so many styles and preferences in dogi that the length and fold of the sleeves can't matter much.

If anything shorter sleeves (ie folded) makes better martial sense (and it seems very much lately that martial sensibility goes a long way in directing etiquette), because your garment is that much less to be used against you.

The directionality of where one folds the front of a gi in death is (in the martial sense) relevant to the fact that the use of the right hand in all things, not only sword technique, dominated the culture and daily life. And should you need something you kept in your garment, why fold it away from your dominant side?

Nonetheless I will inspect pulses on all those I meet with both sleeves rolled up.

michael " you've got red on you. " logan

SeiserL
01-06-2008, 01:16 PM
I often roll both sleeves up.
I do that on my regular street shirts too.
Never been told not to.
Never thought much about it.

Karen Wolek
01-06-2008, 01:33 PM
I roll mine up because I hate having long sleeves. Not just in the dojo! My sensei usually rolls both of his up too. I don't think it has anything to do with etiquette, just a personal preference. My sensei HAS unrolled my sleeves, though, when he is demonstrating a technique that uses uke's sleeve (so he doesn't grab onto my forearm or elbow skin, ouch).

And some people do roll up the sleeve on the side where they have an arm/shoulder/elbow injury.

I don't think it really matters, etiquette-wise.

ChS_23
01-06-2008, 02:16 PM
If your arms are too short for your sleeves you should use needle and thread on them... ähm... the uwagi :-) (or buy a proper fitting keiko-gi)
If you want to assure that your garment is not used against you, I would question why you allow an eri-tori or mune-tori...
If you just want to look cool, I would mention that the tatami is no cat-walk.

But marking an injure with rolled-up sleeves convinced me...

Janet Rosen
01-06-2008, 03:04 PM
I've been a member of a few dojos over the years and only in 1 was I very sternly admonished that it was very rude and not done.

I hate long sleeves unless it is really really cold; I work w/ my hands a lot and don't like feeling restricted, so am much happier as a member of dojos that don't care about such silliness.

Rupert Atkinson
01-06-2008, 03:50 PM
I don't like rolled up sleeves. If mine were too long I'd just cut the sleeves. That being said, in traditional arts they roll 'em up when doing swordwork ...

Josh Reyer
01-06-2008, 04:13 PM
In both the aikido dojo and the classical swordsmanship dojo I've been to here in Japan, rolling up sleeves was a common way of staying cool in the very humid summer. Also when sweating heavily, the sleeves can sometimes stick to the forearms, restricting movement.

I think it varies from dojo to dojo -- in some it's considered bad form, in others it's acceptable. It's pretty much the same in the Japanese workplace.

Ketsan
01-06-2008, 04:46 PM
One of my former sensei taught us that rolled-up sleeves had the same meaning as putting the right side of your uwagi over the left side.
...so don't do it...

I have the feeling that he was right. Not necessary by "the meaning" but that rolled-up sleeves would rarely be a good idea.

As this is a question of etiquette, I would like to ask you to just answer the following questions:

1) Do you know any picture or video of O-Sensei wearing rolled-up sleeves?

2) Do you know any written down rules which deal with the question of rolled-up sleeves? (especially books...)

When I went to ju-jitsu they said they knew immediately that I was an Aikidoka because I rolled my sleeves up.

Ketsan
01-06-2008, 04:53 PM
Wasn't it normal back in the say to tie your sleeves up out of the way before a fight?

I always roll my sleeves up, but then even rolled down they only come to a little below my elbow. It's pretty common in our dojo to roll your sleeves up. In fact on courses you can pick out the members of my dojo by their rolled up sleeves.

lbb
01-06-2008, 05:53 PM
Wasn't it normal back in the say to tie your sleeves up out of the way before a fight?

Different kind of sleeves.

Where I train it's quite uncommon to roll up sleeves, but I don't think I've ever heard it pointed out as a faux pas. The "I'm injured" symbol, btw, is a bit of red tape.

gdandscompserv
01-06-2008, 10:06 PM
The "I'm injured" symbol, btw, is a bit of red tape.
I'm thinking about dyeing my gi red.:freaky:

crbateman
01-06-2008, 11:39 PM
I'm thinking about dyeing my gi red.:freaky:I just let the blood take care of that for me...

roadster
01-07-2008, 01:56 AM
I see other students do it all the time. I have never done it though because I prefer long sleeves. In fact, I usually only seen it done with the thinner GI, and not so much with the thicker Judo style Gi.

As for injury, I went to a Donavin Waite seminar with a kidney injury. Afterwards, I was told that rolling up sleeves was not the way to indicate injury, but a red cloth tucked into my dogi pants was. I have never seen that before and was taken back when a Sempai mentioned it was common practice.

batemanb
01-07-2008, 02:15 AM
One of my former sensei taught us that rolled-up sleeves had the same meaning as putting the right side of your uwagi over the left side.
...so don't do it...

I have the feeling that he was right. Not necessary by "the meaning" but that rolled-up sleeves would rarely be a good idea.

Not heard that one. When I train in Japan, my sensei often has his sleeves rolled up.

happysod
01-07-2008, 08:06 AM
At the first dojo I was with, I got so fed up with rolling my sleeves up for demo purposes from the instructor, I stitched the things up so they were above the elbow - this actually got me admonished publicly at a seminar with another group.

Needless to say I took the admonishment with my usual aplomb (honestly, I waited until I got home before sobbing my heart out) and just didn't bother with any more of their seminars.

Since then I've also met the "ironed gi brigade", the badges (god, the badges :rolleyes: ), the perennial aikido favorites of how long is your hakama and "you tie yours like that?" never mind the even more mind-numbing "we only allow brand x dogi on the mat" so I look back on them almost as goddamn bleeding heart liberals these days.

I'm just consistently amazed at how anal people can be about clothing whose main function is to last through some hopefully rigorous exercise, be reasonably good at absorbing sweat (and the odd bit of blood) and doesn't make you become an exhibitionist during breakfalls. My only need regarding dogi is - is it clean?

ChS_23
01-07-2008, 09:18 AM
Wasn't it normal back in the say to tie your sleeves up out of the way before a fight?
I think, you are speaking of a tasuki:
http://store.shopping.yahoo.co.jp/shinsengumi/tasuki.html
So Mary was right "different kind of sleeves"...

And to mention a third kind of sleeves: From the traditional point of view really long sleeves worn by women are really sexy :drool: ;)

ChrisMoses
01-07-2008, 09:30 AM
I'm just consistently amazed at how anal people can be about clothing whose main function is to last through some hopefully rigorous exercise, be reasonably good at absorbing sweat (and the odd bit of blood) and doesn't make you become an exhibitionist during breakfalls. My only need regarding dogi is - is it clean?

Word. At my current dojo, we have gradually shifted from budogi/kaku obi/hakama to judogi/judo obi to t-shirt and sweats/shorts. We all "clean up" well, but generally keep it pretty simple. If people spent as much energy researching their art and their training as they did consulting Mrs. Manners we'd be a lot better off.

That said, I must confess to having a thing about seeing gi pants peeking out from under the hakama and overly long hakama (below the ankle). Drives me nuts, but I don't consider it rude, I just think it looks crappy.

DonMagee
01-07-2008, 09:46 AM
I used to do it in aikido, but after getting reamed out in judo I have never done it again. Their reason was a simple "This may cause injury". A rolled up sleeve is easier to get a finger caught in during randori.

I now own gi's that fit me properly and I don't see the need to roll them up.

Ron Tisdale
01-07-2008, 10:15 AM
Since we do sode mochi waza in yoshinkan, I would think most people wouldn't roll up their sleeves. I also know that rolling dogi pants is frowned upon for safety reasons...the same might apply for sleeves, I'm not sure.

Best,
Ron

Ketsan
01-07-2008, 11:20 AM
I think, you are speaking of a tasuki:
http://store.shopping.yahoo.co.jp/shinsengumi/tasuki.html
So Mary was right "different kind of sleeves"...

And to mention a third kind of sleeves: From the traditional point of view really long sleeves worn by women are really sexy :drool: ;)

Perhaps, but same idea..."I want don't want clothing getting in the way when I'm fighting"

happysod
01-07-2008, 11:31 AM
A rolled up sleeve is easier to get a finger caught in during randoriNow this makes some sense, especially for judo, but generally we ensure people sort their kit prior to randori so that flapping clothing is at least minimised to start with.

However, if you're really worried about fingers catching in things during randori, I'd suggest that a loose cotton kit held together by an often ad-hoc tied belt and the odd unbroken tie which rarely survives even a couple of minutes in pristine condition is not the way to go. Then you look at aikido - for dangerous trailing things to catch in randori, I'd submit the hakama has proven itself the most dangerous thing known to both tori and uke but just try to pry the damn things off people...

Chris - two-tone rules, you're just too conservative... yes it does drive people nuts for some reason, so I find it quite an appealing look - respectful yet annoying, always a hard option to find.

Jory Boling
01-08-2008, 10:05 AM
Perhaps, but same idea..."I want don't want clothing getting in the way when I'm fighting"

it gets beyond humid over here in the non air conditioned/ventilated dojo and gyms. one guy wears a naginata top

http://www.e-bogu.com/Naginata_Gi_Size_ALL_p/vie-nag-uni-naginatagi-all.htm

no rolls no sleeves

jonreading
01-08-2008, 12:35 PM
I do not know of a specific rule of ettiquette outlined anywhere that states whether one should or should not roll his gi sleeve.

Loose clothing is dangerous, including sleeve rolls. Ask anyone who has been caught on a hakama or a shirt sleeve. I prefer students to wear appropriately weighted gi hemmed just above their forearms. Not everyone does it, but it makes training safer so I promote it.

I once heard an instructor tell a poorly dressed student. "If you were going on a date, I bet you'd wear clean clothes that fit well. So why do you come to my class wearing a dirty gi that doesn't fit?"

Walter Martindale
01-08-2008, 02:28 PM
Before the 70's judogi sleeves and pant legs were shorter and snugger than today. In the mid-late 70's IJF required sleeves and pant legs to be longer and to have a certain amount of space between the sleeve and the human inside. This was done so that people COULD use the sleeve to grip. Prior to that rule, competitors were having their gi tailored to have sleeves and pant legs quite short so that nobody could take a secure grip on the sleeve. That many Aikido people use judo gi for training is the main reason that Aikido people feel a need to roll up sleeves.
Difference, generally, between Aikido and Judo is that in former the grip is usually on the limb, while in the latter the grip is usually on the garment.
When I was rolling up a sleeve for a sensei to grip at one point, he didn't admonish me or anything, he just unrolled it for me and gripped through the sleeve. He also stopped me from sliding a grip under his sleeve - in "situ" the grip will be outside your shirt sleeve and/or your jacket sleeve, unless the person is trained in judo or one of the other clothed grappling MAs to grip by your sleeve. Now I usually just grab the arm whether the sleeve is long or not.
W

aikidoc
01-08-2008, 06:20 PM
I just cut my sleeves off mid forearm so I don't have to roll them up . Keeps them from getting grimy.

Carl Thompson
01-08-2008, 06:23 PM
it is common to roll up the sleeve on the side of the body where an individual is dealing with injury, recovering, or taking it easy, etc, etc.

That's how it is at the dojo here too. I broke my hand a couple of months ago and followed the convention once I got back on the mat, but of course plenty of visitors were not familiar with it. I found that wearing a bandage or tape just for show was also helpful.

Regarding ill-fitting dogi, I once bought a terrible "dedicated Aikidogi". It has ridiculously short sleeves (sodeguchi grabs take place at the elbow) and only gets worn if it rains four days in a row. :D

Regards

Carl

Mike Haftel
01-08-2008, 10:29 PM
In Judo, it is actually against the rules to roll up your sleeves because your oppenent would have nothing to hold on to and it gives you an advantage.

In other arts, I don't think it matters much. My gi is a hybrid kendo style, so my sleeves only come down to my elbow, anyway.

DonMagee
01-10-2008, 10:22 PM
In Judo, it is actually against the rules to roll up your sleeves because your oppenent would have nothing to hold on to and it gives you an advantage.

In other arts, I don't think it matters much. My gi is a hybrid kendo style, so my sleeves only come down to my elbow, anyway.

I'd actually prefer my opponent roll his sleeves up and sew them so they stay there. Mmmm giant collar like grips near the elbows.....

Keith Larman
01-10-2008, 11:01 PM
I'd actually prefer my opponent roll his sleeves up and sew them so they stay there. Mmmm giant collar like grips near the elbows.....

Oddly enough I feel the same way about one guy at our dojo with very long hair. He keeps it in a pony tail. Man, what a great handle... I can't count how many times I've had to stop myself from using it...

ChrisMoses
01-11-2008, 10:05 AM
I'd actually prefer my opponent roll his sleeves up and sew them so they stay there. Mmmm giant collar like grips near the elbows.....

You'd like the Sambo jacket (kurtka) (http://www.kagisports.com/kurtka.html) then! :cool:

Will Prusner
01-11-2008, 10:40 AM
Oddly enough I feel the same way about one guy at our dojo with very long hair. He keeps it in a pony tail. Man, what a great handle... I can't count how many times I've had to stop myself from using it...

Funny! I have long hair but try to avoid the ponytail thing.
I try to go for a more "Samurai-esque" Top-knot... or if you prefer a "Librarian-esque" bun.:D

Hair pulling is for little girls!!!:D

DonMagee
01-11-2008, 04:19 PM
You'd like the Sambo jacket (kurtka) (http://www.kagisports.com/kurtka.html) then! :cool:

Actually, that uniform is the one reason I want to train sambo.

nagoyajoe
01-11-2008, 05:50 PM
For the past 5 years that I have been practicing in Japan, we have never been allowed to roll up our sleeves, especially during kokyudosa or any katatetori waza, because is is so humid. It is next to impossible to get a good, firm grip on a naked wrist dripping with sweat. I have seen (abroad) kokyudosa done with either shorter sleeves or rolled up sleeves and people getting hit in the mouth because their hands slide due to the sweat.

As far as what is "correct" or "standard"...no idea!

rachford
01-11-2008, 09:52 PM
Whenever we practice jo with my small group at the gym at work I roll up my sleeves. Often after having the jo get stuck in the sleeve in the middle of an awase practice as happened last night again for the umpteenth time. :freaky:
We had formal classes at work for over 20 years then in a bureaucratic power play another organization took over the running of the gym at the military base and outlawed all civilian groups. We continued practicing as just "guys working out" and initially we showed up in shorts or sweat pants and tee shirts. It quickly became apparent that this would not work out. Too many torn shirts and not enough absorbance in the Washington, DC summers with no air conditioning. So now we're just "guys working out in judo gis". (And I try to remember to bring the hakama when I train at Capitol Aikikai on the weekends and keep the sleeves down.)

Ethan Weisgard
01-17-2008, 06:45 AM
Saito Sensei often made the point in the Iwama Dojo that it was bad form to have rolled up sleeves.
Isoyama Sensei took time at a seminar here in Copenhagen last year to go through many interesting points of dojo etiquette - emphasizing also that the dojo etiquette for aikido sometimes differs from other martial arts. He made the same point about rolled up sleeves. His general point was that one should dress oneself carefully. The term "fukuso" refers to proper attire in Japanese. He used this term when talking about proper attire in the dojo. He pointed out that if you bought a new suit and the sleeves were too long, you would have the suit altered. The same should be the case with the keiko-gi, and the hakama as well. Hakama straps that hang down too far are also not good form, according to Isoyama Sensei.

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

Trish Greene
01-17-2008, 05:02 PM
Oddly enough I feel the same way about one guy at our dojo with very long hair. He keeps it in a pony tail. Man, what a great handle... I can't count how many times I've had to stop myself from using it...

I wore double ponytails for the first time to practice last night, normally I just wear one long one. The guys had great fun coming up behind me and pulling on them right as I was about to demonstrate a new technique to new member. I guess that was their way of demonstrating to the new member not to wear her hair in ponytails....

I have short legs, I have short arms, I roll my sleeves once at the wrists just so that I can SEE my wrists! I am not crafty with a needle so rolling worked better for me.

Raul Roldan
01-19-2008, 12:36 AM
having trained in hot and humid climate as Jakarta, Manila, South Korea (in summer) and once in Japan in summer, too. i usually wore my sleeves short, either rolled up initially or altered.
i am not aware, either of any etiquette regarding this. this response, as far as i am concerned is about comfort and practicality.
no one has yet pointed this out to me, so i have continued doing it and will probably, continue doing it. if someone is really bent on imposing it, i guess that makes it uncomfortable in every way, and i'll just have to leave the mat.
in a sense, to each his own.

mikeygh
01-24-2008, 11:23 AM
In our dojo most people wear an Aikido gi from "Nine Circles" because they have shorter sleeves and are supposedly designed for Aikido.

If someone does have problems with long sleeves and wants to roll them up we get them to roll the sleeves up on the inside of their gi. This way they can have short sleeves and nobody gets their fingures caught.

SentWest
02-06-2008, 09:50 PM
I roll my sleeves once at the wrists just so that I can SEE my wrists! I am not crafty with a needle so rolling worked better for me.

Same for me. If I didn't roll them up one I wouldn't have any hands.

However, I don't want to get the sleeves hemmed until it does all the shrinking in the wash it may want to do.