Dojo etiquette?

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[Andrew R]

Long story short, I've been doing aikido for about 4 months and I really enjoy it. My sensei is a very good one and usually very kind one. But the other day something happened that I thought was quite rude and made me question if I should even train with him anymore. We were practicing with the bokken and I was practicing the overhead swing. Instead of bringing it out all the way to simulate crushing the skull I only brought it out far enough to have slashed his face. He told me to extend my arm more, and while I had no intention of disobeying him, I lightheartedly let out an offhand comment saying that the face slash would be effective too. And in a real fight, of course it would, barring a face mask on the opponent or him being able to step back very swiftly. I know that he was trying to teach me proper form and that ultimately the longer extension is more effective, and I wasn't really even arguing with him, but instead of making light of my comment he said sternly "You're not arguing with me, are you? I didn't think so."

To be honest this was like a slap in the face. I thought there were a thousand things he could have said in that situation and that he chose one of the most confrontational things. I'll admit I probably shouldn't have said what I did, but it was a harmless comment. So my question is, was I in the wrong? Was he? Were we both? Am I taking this too seriously? Does anyone have similar experiences or insights to share? I would be very grateful.

(Also, this wasn't the first incident like this. A few weeks earlier he was standing about 10 feet in front of the shomen with his back to it, talking to another student. I had just grabbed a bokken and was walking to the other side of the mat. I didn't realize at the time that it wasn't proper etiquette to walk between the sensei and the shomen, but instead of gently telling me this he stopped me and said "I don't want you walking behind me" like I was some sort of thug that was going to jack him. He said it in a very unsparing tone as though I had just kicked his dog. Between these two incidents I wonder just how :ai: :ki: he really is.)

[Kevin Leavitt]

Sure, there are always different and better ways to handle situations. For one to say "he was right", or to confirm and support your side is not really possible here on a forum.

Consider the following though.

1. It is his dojo.
2. He has something that you want (aikido).
3. He makes the rules.

Sort of sounds like the conversations I have with my kids! My house, my support, my rules!

So, in the "big picture"...sensei rules! and the bottom line is either you accept them, swallow your pride, ego what not, and you continue on with your training under those conditions, or you go away.

It is as simple as that! It is not a question of what is proper, aiki, or what a "polite and proper person would do". it is his house.

I would assume that if he was like this alot, then he probably would not have many students, either that or what he teaches is so good that everyone is willing to look past the "grumpy ole sensei" and stick it out for what he has to offer.

You are not going to change sensei, so why bother validating if he is right or wrong in his choice of behavior?

You are there to change/improve yourself.

What good would it do for a bunch of us to say "Wow, Andrew, you are right in how you feel!"

Sure, I might make a different choice of words, or explain things in a different way, but then again, maybe not! It depends on many things.

Sounds like you got your feelings hurt some, and that happens.

If you are going to make a long term study of budo though, I will tell you that you will run into many personalities, politics, and what not. Having patience and a thick skin helps a bunch.

Hope that helps!

[crbateman]

Firstly, what is considered proper or improper in the dojo is almost entirely the prerogative of the instructor, and they are all different. Yours obviously is serious about certain things, and you will have to learn what they are. Often, it is easier to ask a senior student "off the mat" for some pointers. Someone on more even terms with the instructor might persuade him to compose a written outline of these requirements, to be given to all new students, and perhaps posted in the changing room, but he is not obligated to do so. Rather, it is your obligation to absorb them.

Generally, it is not considered good form to dialog with the instructor on the mat unless he asks you to. The sort of thing you mentioned above would better be asked of him after the class is over, and after asking the instructor if you might get further clarification from him on something. To suggest without being asked that "this is the way that we do it up north" could be considered disrespectful. As a general rule, as a student, you should leave your ego at the door when you arrive, and to expect that the instructor perhaps has not done the same. This is his privilege.

Remember also that the typical and traditional instructor/student relationship usually transcends the vendor/customer thing that many people adopt after they have paid money for something. You have every right to take your wallet and go elsewhere if you choose, but that's where the entitlement ends.

Everybody has to find what works in their own dojo, but it's usually wise to defer to a lot of smiles and bows, and keep the mouth shut until asked to do otherwise.

[Aiki1]

To me, there are two sides to this. One is that the Sensei certainly has every right to define how everything is done in his own dojo. No question. If one is going to practice there, one should abide by the rules, simple.

But. I personally would not want to study in a place where information and "correction" is conveyed through condescension, negativity, inflated authority, and infantilizing the students. Not my cup of tea. For me, one of my goals is to help empower my students, not show them how powerful I think I am.

[Dan O'Day]

I'm still new in the aikido world and over the past four years I've committed almost every on the mat faux paux possible.

I was fortunate most of the time in that the various instructors readily assessed my errors as those of ignorance and not disrespect. Thus they were supportive yet assertive with their corrections which was an offer of respect to me, the student.

After two years of training I moved to a different state and tried a couple dojos out until I found the one I'm currently at. The first new dojo for me, was not for me. There was an etiquette correction which occurred that did not seem to be offered in the same spirit as those I had received prior at my initial dojo.

I didn't take it personally as I was quickly able to see that the environment at this dojo was...hmmm...say, a bit on the military side and hey! I'm from Northern California where we're all like totally mellow, dude.

Anyway...it was no big deal. To me aikido is far larger than any one or two senseis and their particular approaches to etiquette and general teacher/student relationships.

So I "shopped around" for another dojo and found just what I was looking for.

And since then I have continued to receive a correction here and there and I welcome them. How am I supposed to know finer points of etiquette unless some one instructs me. And if the intent of that instructor is of good will - which is easily discernable - then I am grateful for the lesson.

One thing I have to remember is that all humans are human. Senseis too have their rough days, maybe challenging things going on in their lives just like anyone else, and that may foster a sharp retort or somewhat disrespectful seeming attitude.

But one thing I've really found which helps me deal with all of this is to revel in my newness. Accept heartily that I do not know much and why should I? I'm new! This is all new stuff to me. It's exciting and making mistakes is all part of the learning process.

As time has gone on I've made less mistakes and certainly have learned enough to no longer be new to the point of being "blindly new" and I have welcomed the responsibilities which come with that.

It's all a continual learning process, of course. And that's what is so exciting. There is no final level of mastery.

I have a calligraphy which was given to me by a wonderful sensei who has trained for over fifty years. I'm a bit rough with the translation but the basic message is, "through our training we constantly polish ourselves like the river polishes the rocks in its path".

Yes. My translating abilities have a way to go, the message is much more poetic than my interpretation but the theme is correct.

Happy New Year, all.

[Aristeia]

Here's the thing. The comment needs to be taken in the wider context - which we don't have. My best guess based on the incident about walking behind sensei is that this dojo has a pretty traditional mindset - many aikido dojo do and in fact it's what attracts some people to the art. That said, when I think about the traditional dojo I've been in, the idea of making a lighthearted offhand remark to sensei is just not appropriate. Most people coming into that environment pick that up really quickly and adjust to the culture. Sometimes other people take longer to realise that once class bows in you are operating under quite different social norms than day to day life.

Is it possible Andrew that you make what you consider off hand remarks semi regularly and that perhaps this is one in a series -so sensei is trying to tell you via certain cues - tone of voice, severity etc that that is not how we do things around here?

End of the day, as others have said - his house, his rules. And of course there is always the option of having a conversation with him about it off the mat.

[Jonathan Lewis]

Andrew, In my admittedly inexpert opinion, you can't expect anyone else to know how you are feeling about your comment. I can't possibly know since I wasn't there, however from your description, to me your comment sounds extremely rude, unsafe, and counter to the purpose of a dojo.
Rude - you got some expert advise (if you don't consider it expert perhaps you should not be studying there?) When the expert gives you information a response such as "Well, my way would work too" on the face of it sounds like a petulant child.
Unsafe - It is next to impossible to explain all the reasons behind why we do something a particular way. If you need all the reasons before you follow instruction, you will eventually be hurt or hurt someone else. In this particular case, under 'real conditions (tm)' a slash to the face is less life threatening than a proper shomen, however in the dojo it is far MORE dangerous as it is far, far more likely to result in an injury to your partners eye. This distancing will not be tolerated by any responsible Aikido teacher.
Counter to the purpose - You are there to learn. First consider the instruction deeply, try to find the reasons for it on your own, then, eventually you make it part of your own way or not. Don't just treat serious instruction in an offhand manner.

[Kevin Leavitt]

A good book to help out with the whole etiquette thing. "In the Dojo" by Dave Lowry.

It will not lay down the gospel as to what is right and what is wrong, but it does a good job explaining the meaning behind many of the things we do.

I bought it this week, and read it in a couple of hours. I've been doing this for a while, and there was much I did not know!

Well worth the 15.00 USD or so it will cost to obtain it.

it may not help you avoid issues such as above, as it does not say "this is the way you do this"...but with a good overview on "WHY" we do the things we do, it might help you understand and make better choices.

[Cypher]

Andrew, I dont know you personally, and what everyone here said about all dojo's and every sensei being different in their own way is very true. But dont think that you made a serious mistake by saying " This is effective too", depending on the mood of things and the way it sounded to the sensei could have lead him to misunderstand what your intentions were. My sensei has a very good sense of humor with us, and we joke back with him. But yet sometimes we all make certain comments that in his eyes may seem a little disrespectful and he corrects us, Aikido style. So dont sweat it man, just remember that it is his house and he does make the rules, and that everyone is human including the Sensei.

Tony,

[Fred Little]

Andrew, In my admittedly inexpert opinion, you can't expect anyone else to know how you are feeling about your comment. I can't possibly know since I wasn't there, however from your description, to me your comment sounds extremely rude, unsafe, and counter to the purpose of a dojo.


I have to concur with Jonathan on this one.

Over the years, I've only thrown one student out of the dojo. I did so after an incident in which a potentially serious injury occurred as a direct result of his willful refusal to make a specific change in technique in response to a correction.

My only error was not throwing him out immediately and I won't make the same mistake again.

Bokken and jo are weapons in their own right, not merely stand-ins for weapons.

My current view is that unless a student has extensive professional or avocational background in the use of sharp-edged and pointy tools over a period of many years, there is no basis for a discussion, much less a disagreement. And if the student does have that experience, the question doesn't even arise.

As for walking between the instructor and the shomen, my response is to simply say: "Don't do that again. If you want to talk about why after class, that's fine, but don't ever do that again."

Yes, that tone has made people walk away. Better that they walked away before someone got hurt as a result of their metacognitive failure than after. That was a gain, not a loss.

FL

[Cypher]

Well you also have to remember that Andrew in no way questioned or argued the sensei's knowledge or ability, even if the sensei thought he was. Now that being said if the sensei thought he was being a smart ass then maybe thats a heads up that any comments, other than ?'s about what you are doing, should be left for the end of class. And yes, things can happen as a result of comments made during class such as injuries, but as I said before we are all human.

Tony,

[lbb]

Andrew, it kind of sounds to me like you've just bumped up against the point where martial arts etiquette stops being quaint and starts being real. When people start training at a Japanese dojo, they look on the uniforms and bowing and so on as cultural artifacts: it's interesting, but it's window dressing. In fact, while you could argue that some aspects of Japanese martial arts etiquette are mostly or entirely cultural, other aspects are functional and are based on what was needed to assure mutual safety in an armed (stratum of) society.

Take the bokken thing: a lot of aikido dojos are a little casual about this, but in general, one of the most important rules of partner weapons practice is no improvising. You are working with real weapons capable of delivering serious or fatal injuries, not foam boffers, and therefore it is critical that you not deviate from your role in the kata or practice. Instructors are used to newbies who err out of incompetence, but they really won't tolerate a willful deviation -- nor should they.

Walking behind someone is a violation of a similar stricture of etiquette, one that came about for functional safety reasons. Your reaction to the situation was indignation and to be angry that the instructor treated you like "some sort of thug". In fact, his reaction was that of someone who is trained to take weapons and the people holding them seriously. When you put yourself in that mindset, you can see how walking behind someone with a weapon is rude -- you force them to either trust you or confront you. And if your thought about that is, "Well...why wouldn't he trust me?" -- ask yourself if you'd feel okay if he asked you to give him your wallet, not to use anything in it, but just to keep for a bit. Regardless of how you felt about him, you'd probably be somewhat taken aback and feel rather uncomfortable, put on the spot, and wondering what the point was. That's an incomplete analogy, but it's the best I can come up with. Trust can be extended, but it should never be demanded.

Finally, while I haven't read the Lowry book, I'll take the step of recommending it -- if anyone can explain the whys of dojo etiquette, he can.

[mathewjgano]

Long story short, I've been doing aikido for about 4 months and I really enjoy it. My sensei is a very good one and usually very kind one. But the other day something happened that I thought was quite rude and made me question if I should even train with him anymore. We were practicing with the bokken and I was practicing the overhead swing. Instead of bringing it out all the way to simulate crushing the skull I only brought it out far enough to have slashed his face. He told me to extend my arm more, and while I had no intention of disobeying him, I lightheartedly let out an offhand comment saying that the face slash would be effective too. And in a real fight, of course it would, barring a face mask on the opponent or him being able to step back very swiftly. I know that he was trying to teach me proper form and that ultimately the longer extension is more effective, and I wasn't really even arguing with him, but instead of making light of my comment he said sternly "You're not arguing with me, are you? I didn't think so."

To be honest this was like a slap in the face. I thought there were a thousand things he could have said in that situation and that he chose one of the most confrontational things. I'll admit I probably shouldn't have said what I did, but it was a harmless comment. So my question is, was I in the wrong? Was he? Were we both? Am I taking this too seriously? Does anyone have similar experiences or insights to share? I would be very grateful.

(Also, this wasn't the first incident like this. A few weeks earlier he was standing about 10 feet in front of the shomen with his back to it, talking to another student. I had just grabbed a bokken and was walking to the other side of the mat. I didn't realize at the time that it wasn't proper etiquette to walk between the sensei and the shomen, but instead of gently telling me this he stopped me and said "I don't want you walking behind me" like I was some sort of thug that was going to jack him. He said it in a very unsparing tone as though I had just kicked his dog. Between these two incidents I wonder just how :ai: :ki: he really is.)

I'd like to echo the idea that different dojos/instructors have different methods and ideas for etiquette. My sensei is usually very jolly while teaching, but there are times where he gets serious; I've read him as saying at some point a teacher has to apply pressure to his or her students, particularly if they think the student is serious about the training itself and not just doing it as some mild hobby. The first time my teacher was stern with me was a bit of a shock too. I'm often very casual (mom was a hippy) and tend to think everything should be fun, even when being serious. Still, it's valuable to experience these kinds of things. It's surprising how many people get uncomfortable when someone is being very direct in a serious tone. I can't read your sensei's mind so it's hard to be sure, but it could be he's trying to instill a greater sense of discipline. Add the fact that in many regards Aikido tends to have a very traditional Japanese tone, and it's no wonder he reacted the way he did during the sword work. My sensei was expected to sit in a particular way and look in a particular way and when he didn't, his sensei became irate. To many westerners this would seem inapropriate, but to the familial head of a style of aikijujutsu, it can be perfectly normal and expected.
If you're having trouble with adjusting to your sensei's behavior, and if it seems appropriate, talk to him about it. I think if you frame it in terms of not being used to that kind of interaction and express a sincere desire to understand and respect where he's coming from, your sensei will probably be able to shed some light on the situation. It might be better to ask a sempai first though, depending on how formal your dojo is.
Gambatte!
Matt

[mathewjgano]

Andrew, it kind of sounds to me like you've just bumped up against the point where martial arts etiquette stops being quaint and starts being real. When people start training at a Japanese dojo, they look on the uniforms and bowing and so on as cultural artifacts: it's interesting, but it's window dressing.

This is pretty interesting stuff to me. I agree with you and think a lot of people view the cultural affectations as superfluous to martial training. It's my opinion that when applied meaningfully, they are more than mere dogma. Apart from the psychological affect of creating a particular state of mind, bowing, knowing where to walk, etc. help create a sense of spacial and temporal awareness (ie-maai).
When we don't know what is considered appropriate it can seem like a social mine-field. We're forced to pay attention and learn on our own in order to suite the tastes of our "masters." From what I understand, one of the main lessons of an uchi-deshi is how to read their sensei and respond before being told how. Uchi-deshi roles are just an extream form of "normal" deshi, and to me this translates directly into reading our partners in the world around us and is more important than knowing how to do ikkyo, etc. To my mind, the biggest aspect of learning martial arts is increasing awareness, both in the passive sense of evaluating the situation and in the active sense of interacting with it. After a while, dojo etiquette starts to become dogmatic again because one already knows what to do, and that begins to become more and more superfluous to learning itself, but it still helps to create a state of mind and practice that abstract, but still usefull, social maai.
Nearly everyone I've ever met tends to begin with their own sense of "good" etiquette and proceeds from there. In my experience, being able to adapt quickly to the etiquette of others is usually the first step in preventing conflict. This can include everything from speech patterns to body language, but adapting to new forms of etiquette has given me a far more enriched outlook not only on my view of the world around me, but of myself and it's taught me not to take myself so seriously as I have in the past. I'm getting a little tangential, but I think these ideas are overlooked pretty often and for me they've been invaluable.
Best regards,
Matthew

[Tom Fish]

It is also important to remember that in both cases that offended Andrew, weapons were involved. It has been my personal experience that practice with weapons has required a level of maturity that includes a serious attitude. The attention that the instructor should be providing for safety, may require the students adherence to a strict no nonsense approach to classroom behavior. In any case, learning the proper dojo etiquette will not prove detrimental to your learning environment.

[lbb]

This is pretty interesting stuff to me. I agree with you and think a lot of people view the cultural affectations as superfluous to martial training. It's my opinion that when applied meaningfully, they are more than mere dogma. Apart from the psychological affect of creating a particular state of mind, bowing, knowing where to walk, etc. help create a sense of spacial and temporal awareness (ie-maai).
...
Nearly everyone I've ever met tends to begin with their own sense of "good" etiquette and proceeds from there. In my experience, being able to adapt quickly to the etiquette of others is usually the first step in preventing conflict. This can include everything from speech patterns to body language, but adapting to new forms of etiquette has given me a far more enriched outlook not only on my view of the world around me, but of myself and it's taught me not to take myself so seriously as I have in the past. I'm getting a little tangential, but I think these ideas are overlooked pretty often and for me they've been invaluable.

I don't think it's tangential at all -- it's just that in modern Western society, many people don't understand the real reason for etiquette. It's not so you can one-up other people with your knowledge of which fork to use, it's so you can get along with other people, because both you and they know what certain behaviors mean and what is expected in different situations. In the world of Miss Manners, this means not irking people in social situations, or being able to operate smoothly within the workplace; in the martial classes of feudal Japan, it meant knowing which behaviors were threatening and constituted a challenge, and which behaviors were safe. And of course, if you're going to try and figure out which behaviors are threatening, all kinds of practical things come into it, like: who's holding a weapon, what kind of weapon, where are you standing relative to each other, which way are you facing, etc. -- maai and other related stuff. So you can see that the etiquette -- reishiki -- has intensely practical roots. When you violate reishiki, it's not just a matter of behaving rudely -- most likely, you have also threatened someone (possibly unknowingly) or exposed yourself in a way so as to invite an attack.

[Ron Tisdale]

Aikido and Daito ryu begin and end with etiquette...

-Kondo Sensei

Best,
Ron

[Fred Little]

When you violate reishiki, it's not just a matter of behaving rudely -- most likely, you have also threatened someone (possibly unknowingly) or exposed yourself in a way so as to invite an attack.

Very much so.

A few years back, I was standing on a cocktail lounge patio having a friendly conversation with a retired USMC officer. As I was emphasizing a particular statement, I pointed at him. He leaned in and said, very quietly, "Please don't point at me."

He was serious, and I knew he was serious, but I've lived in New York long enough that talking with the hands has become quasi instinctive. I did it again. He reached out with a very soft palm and pushed my finger to one side, then said: "I asked you not to point at me. If it happens again, I'm not going to ask."

I apologized and thanked him. It didn't happen again. Aside from another hour or so of very interesting conversation that wouldn't have occurred otherwise, I also remain grateful for both the insight into a professional's sense of ma-ai and threat he provided and the professional restraint with which he provided it.

Make of that what you will.

FL

[Ron Tisdale]

:D I make of it that you don't point at that marine! :D

Best,
Ron

[DonMagee]

Now my interest is peaked, I want to know why he doesn't want people pointing at him.

I can see another long sleepless night imaging reasons.

[ChrisMoses]

Now my interest is peaked, I want to know why he doesn't want people pointing at him.

I can see another long sleepless night imaging reasons.

Well according to Freud... :cool:

[Ron Tisdale]

:D Yeah, but sometimes to smoke a cigar, is just...

Oh you know...

B,
R :D

[Fred Little]

:D Yeah, but sometimes to smoke a cigar, is just...



....considerably less expensive than firing a few clips on the target range.

FL

[Mike Sigman]

Now my interest is peaked, I want to know why he doesn't want people pointing at him.

I can see another long sleepless night imaging reasons.Heh. Not wanting to be rude, but a similar point to worry over at night is why some people find it offensive that others spit on the sidewalk. I mean.... why on earth would anyone even think that? ;)

FWIW

Mike

[Dennis Hooker]

I was eating a meal with Sensei and a few others about 30 years ago. It was my habit to pick up the food with chopsticks and place the chopsticks in my mouth much like I did with a spoon or fork. Sensei said “don’t eat like that”. I said OK not having any idea what he was talking about. I checked my chin and shirt front for sloppy eating and found nothing. So I proceeded to eat again and Sensei said “don’t eat like that”. I said OK and not wanting to be a complete idiot I put down the bowl of vegetables and picked the bowl of rice thinking how can I mess this up. I placed the chopsticks in my mouth and sensei gently leaned over and gently tapped my hand and the chopsticks went into my throat gagging me slightly and sensei said “don’t eat like that, not polite and dangerous”. I now eat much differently with the chopsticks.

Dennis

[Cypher]

I was eating a meal with Sensei and a few others about 30 years ago. It was my habit to pick up the food with chopsticks and place the chopsticks in my mouth much like I did with a spoon or fork. Sensei said “don’t eat like that”. I said OK not having any idea what he was talking about. I checked my chin and shirt front for sloppy eating and found nothing. So I proceeded to eat again and Sensei said “don’t eat like that”. I said OK and not wanting to be a complete idiot I put down the bowl of vegetables and picked the bowl of rice thinking how can I mess this up. I placed the chopsticks in my mouth and sensei gently leaned over and gently tapped my hand and the chopsticks went into my throat gagging me slightly and sensei said “don’t eat like that, not polite and dangerous”. I now eat much differently with the chopsticks.

Dennis

Sounds like something my sensei would do. The worst experience I every had in Aikido was when my Sensei caught me smoking for the first time, he looked at me and turned right around to head back inside the dojo, told everyone to go home and that class was cancelled but asked me to stay. I spent the rest of the night trying to avoid being attacked. And that pretty much sums it up.

Tony,

[Andrew R]

Thank you all for your well thought out responses. I didn't think so many people would reply.

Andrew, In my admittedly inexpert opinion, you can't expect anyone else to know how you are feeling about your comment. I can't possibly know since I wasn't there, however from your description, to me your comment sounds extremely rude, unsafe, and counter to the purpose of a dojo.
Rude - you got some expert advise (if you don't consider it expert perhaps you should not be studying there?) When the expert gives you information a response such as "Well, my way would work too" on the face of it sounds like a petulant child.
Unsafe - It is next to impossible to explain all the reasons behind why we do something a particular way. If you need all the reasons before you follow instruction, you will eventually be hurt or hurt someone else. In this particular case, under 'real conditions (tm)' a slash to the face is less life threatening than a proper shomen, however in the dojo it is far MORE dangerous as it is far, far more likely to result in an injury to your partners eye. This distancing will not be tolerated by any responsible Aikido teacher.
Counter to the purpose - You are there to learn. First consider the instruction deeply, try to find the reasons for it on your own, then, eventually you make it part of your own way or not. Don't just treat serious instruction in an offhand manner.

Just tell us how you really feel...

A good book to help out with the whole etiquette thing. "In the Dojo" by Dave Lowry.

It will not lay down the gospel as to what is right and what is wrong, but it does a good job explaining the meaning behind many of the things we do.

I bought it this week, and read it in a couple of hours. I've been doing this for a while, and there was much I did not know!

Well worth the 15.00 USD or so it will cost to obtain it.

it may not help you avoid issues such as above, as it does not say "this is the way you do this"...but with a good overview on "WHY" we do the things we do, it might help you understand and make better choices.

Thank you very much; I'll check it out as soon as I can.



As for walking between the instructor and the shomen, my response is to simply say: "Don't do that again. If you want to talk about why after class, that's fine, but don't ever do that again."
FL

Again, I find this approach to be extremely off-putting and overbearing, at least in this situation. Your response would be appropriate if a student actually did something dangerous, but innocently and naively walking behind the sensei does not call for such a reaction. Being firm in enforcing the rules is not mutually exclusive with being polite. Maybe I would think differently after doing aikido for 20 odd years, but I doubt it. No doubt that in your dojo you have the right to say whatever you want, but don't be surprised then if I seek out a teacher that doesn't talk to me like a pile of dog shit.

Andrew, it kind of sounds to me like you've just bumped up against the point where martial arts etiquette stops being quaint and starts being real.

So I'm on the Real World? :p

I'd like to echo the idea that different dojos/instructors have different methods and ideas for etiquette. My sensei is usually very jolly while teaching, but there are times where he gets serious; I've read him as saying at some point a teacher has to apply pressure to his or her students, particularly if they think the student is serious about the training itself and not just doing it as some mild hobby. The first time my teacher was stern with me was a bit of a shock too. I'm often very casual (mom was a hippy) and tend to think everything should be fun, even when being serious. Still, it's valuable to experience these kinds of things. It's surprising how many people get uncomfortable when someone is being very direct in a serious tone.
Matt

Are there people who don't mind at all being talked to this way? I'm serious. :confused:

This is pretty interesting stuff to me. I agree with you and think a lot of people view the cultural affectations as superfluous to martial training. It's my opinion that when applied meaningfully, they are more than mere dogma. Apart from the psychological affect of creating a particular state of mind, bowing, knowing where to walk, etc. help create a sense of spacial and temporal awareness (ie-maai).
When we don't know what is considered appropriate it can seem like a social mine-field. We're forced to pay attention and learn on our own in order to suite the tastes of our "masters." From what I understand, one of the main lessons of an uchi-deshi is how to read their sensei and respond before being told how. Uchi-deshi roles are just an extream form of "normal" deshi, and to me this translates directly into reading our partners in the world around us and is more important than knowing how to do ikkyo, etc. To my mind, the biggest aspect of learning martial arts is increasing awareness, both in the passive sense of evaluating the situation and in the active sense of interacting with it. After a while, dojo etiquette starts to become dogmatic again because one already knows what to do, and that begins to become more and more superfluous to learning itself, but it still helps to create a state of mind and practice that abstract, but still usefull, social maai.
Nearly everyone I've ever met tends to begin with their own sense of "good" etiquette and proceeds from there. In my experience, being able to adapt quickly to the etiquette of others is usually the first step in preventing conflict. This can include everything from speech patterns to body language, but adapting to new forms of etiquette has given me a far more enriched outlook not only on my view of the world around me, but of myself and it's taught me not to take myself so seriously as I have in the past. I'm getting a little tangential, but I think these ideas are overlooked pretty often and for me they've been invaluable.
Best regards,
Matthew

I don't think it's tangential at all -- it's just that in modern Western society, many people don't understand the real reason for etiquette. It's not so you can one-up other people with your knowledge of which fork to use, it's so you can get along with other people, because both you and they know what certain behaviors mean and what is expected in different situations. In the world of Miss Manners, this means not irking people in social situations, or being able to operate smoothly within the workplace; in the martial classes of feudal Japan, it meant knowing which behaviors were threatening and constituted a challenge, and which behaviors were safe. And of course, if you're going to try and figure out which behaviors are threatening, all kinds of practical things come into it, like: who's holding a weapon, what kind of weapon, where are you standing relative to each other, which way are you facing, etc. -- maai and other related stuff. So you can see that the etiquette -- reishiki -- has intensely practical roots. When you violate reishiki, it's not just a matter of behaving rudely -- most likely, you have also threatened someone (possibly unknowingly) or exposed yourself in a way so as to invite an attack.

I see what you're both saying and you make excellent points but I can't tell you how many times the sensei turns his back to students during weapons class to walk somewhere else on the mat. He does not normally behave as if everyone wanted to harm him. I'm not so sure that the shomen thing was a lack of trust on his part so much as him being a stickler for reishiki, and that's why I think he could have been a little less stern when blocking my path.

I absolutely understand him (and want him to) helping me improve my sense of martial awareness, but one can be a demanding teacher without being a rude one.

Very much so.

A few years back, I was standing on a cocktail lounge patio having a friendly conversation with a retired USMC officer. As I was emphasizing a particular statement, I pointed at him. He leaned in and said, very quietly, "Please don't point at me."

He was serious, and I knew he was serious, but I've lived in New York long enough that talking with the hands has become quasi instinctive. I did it again. He reached out with a very soft palm and pushed my finger to one side, then said: "I asked you not to point at me. If it happens again, I'm not going to ask."

I apologized and thanked him. It didn't happen again. Aside from another hour or so of very interesting conversation that wouldn't have occurred otherwise, I also remain grateful for both the insight into a professional's sense of ma-ai and threat he provided and the professional restraint with which he provided it.

Make of that what you will.

FL

I'm not sure I would have continued the conversation after the second warning. The man obviously had a few screws loose upstairs. Yes, the conversation may have been interesting but risking my physical safety with a psychopath who construed common and harmless social gestures as threats does not sound like my idea of a good time. :freaky:

________________________________________________________

Again, thank you all for your advice; it has all been duly noted. It really has made me see what happened in a different light.

[Josh Reyer]

Take this for what it's worth -

In Japan, what you did (the off-hand comment) would be unthinkable. Beyond the pale. The rudeness of your instructor's response from an American perspective is a drop in the ocean compared to the rudeness of your comment from a Japanese perspective. A Japanese student who did that would count himself lucky to get off with one stern comment. More likely he'd have his ass chewed out something fierce, if the instructor didn't terminate the relationship right there.

This is certainly not to say that a Japanese understanding of etiquette and teacher-student relationships should be imposed on new students who don't know any better. (Nor should it be taken to mean that Japanese dojo are humorless, joyless places wherein students mindlessly obey their teachers.) However, it may help for you to account that your teacher may have been "brought up" in that kind of Japanese mind-set, either by training in Japan, or with a Japanese teacher. Or, in fact, in the military, where chain of command and etiquette are highly valued and trained. So there's an element of culture shock, for him too, and as you may have taken his comment harder than he intended, so he may have taken your comment more seriously than you intended.

All that said, certainly there are those in the U.S. that are insufferable jerks with a slavish devotion to what they perceive as "proper" Japanese (and/or military) etiquette, at the expense of basic American manners. Screw them. I think what you need to do is wipe the slate clean, and look at the instructor as a whole - how he treats other students, as well as you. "Stern" is fine, as long as it's not "abusive", and as long you have an interest in what he has to teach.

[Ellis Amdur]

Just tell us how you really feel... I think this response to Jonathan Lewis' post, along with a number of other smart-assed responses and smiley "just kidding" emoticons - sums your character perfectly. As your response goes on, you "count coup" on the instructor, tallying when he's open and when he's not & critique him for being a stickler for reigi, . Funny, you want to do aikido - but Ueshiba - a stickler for reigi - would send someone out of his dojo in a rage if they crossed their arms while watching him, much less tell him that he was incorrect in what he was teaching.
You are studying with someone who is an expert at a martial discipline (if not, why study with him?). You, in that wonderful American democratic spirit, feel the need to share what (you think) you know. Because you are equals, right? And he has no call to be rude! A martial art - a study of violence - and he egregiously runs the risk of hurting feelings, by not being "supportive."
He was kind enough (for he owes you nothing) to teach you something, and you have to prove him "not as right as he thinks." !!!???
Yes, there is true that one will not, likely, be in a sword fight. But it is profoundly disrespectful to human life to practice with a weapon without a fundamentally serious attitude. It sounds like your teacher is serious in what he does. Part of training is an acute sensitivity to the mood of your instructor. Why? Not because you owe him or her slavish devotion - but you use the instructor to hone that sensitivity in the laboratory of the dojo so you have access to it in the real world, thereby being able to read people's intentions. Yes, that "real world."
And I would wager something - based on the way you have responded to people who have offered you their take on the situation - you have probably breezily ignored any number of wishes and rules of the dojo , and his "rudeness" very possibly may have occured only after finding you didn't notice anything less.
I absolutely understand him (and want him to) helping me improve my sense of martial awareness, but one can be a demanding teacher without being a rude one.
And this is it in a nutshell. You would like to improve your "martial awareness," this ability to be a warrior or a fighting man - (and what other kind of martial awareness is there?) - but you will decide how you will learn this, not the instructor. Heaven forfend that the assailant you face some day might also be rude!

Ellis Amdur

[Dan Richards]

Your response would be appropriate if a student actually did something dangerous... Any student in a dojo on the mat during an aikido class is doing something dangerous.

[Michael Hackett]

Sorry, but I have to agree with most of the folks here. Dojo etiquette is much more than simply rules of common courtesy, but based on safety. Bowing in for example, helps a student focus on training to the exclusion of everything else - and if a student is inattentive, people can get hurt. My Sensei is one of the most pleasant and understanding people I've ever met; unfailingly courteous and almost always soft-spoken. I've heard him raise his voice twice in almost five years. Each time has been a case where someone was behaving in a dangerous manner. He is also a stickler for proper conduct and that relieves him from having to raise his voice or behave sternly. My sempai mirror his demeanor and I hope that I do as well.

As for your account of the weapons work. I can't imagine questioning any qualified teacher while on the mat and certainly not for the second time. I would expect to have class stopped immediately and to be escorted off the mat. What you described was dangerous and a stern rebuke was a very light response indeed.

No, don't drink the Kool-Aid, but please understand that a certain amount of conformity is necessary to the welfare of everyone training around you. You may not understand the necessity yet, and perhaps no one has taken the time to explain everything to you, but I doubt your instructor has it in for you. If you think otherwise, if you don't have confidence in your teacher and don't trust his judgment, find another place to train. I think I would feel right at home in your current dojo.

[ElizabethCastor]

Hey Andrew...

I've been keeping tabs with this thread for a while now and its has been pretty interesting. I thought that I would take a moment to add my humble 2 pennies.

The first thing that really catches my attention is your statements that make the situations sound nearly abusive. I am kind of confused on this point... I wish I could have heard the teacher's tone when these comments were made! All I have to go on are your descriptions...

Again, I find this approach to be extremely off-putting and overbearing, at least in this situation.
....don't be surprised then if I seek out a teacher that doesn't talk to me like a pile of dog shit.

I suppose that I am especially confused because of your other descriptions in this thread...
My sensei is a very good one and usually very kind one....
He does not normally behave as if everyone wanted to harm him.
However, as you have heard all over this thread (and the MANY others that are similar). Each sensei has his/her own particular concerns and focus points. Your aikido training is not like a Las Vegas buffet line... you don't get to select the lessons you want to learn, the ones you will ignore and the ones that are just and old fogey mumbling along.

Additionally, you need to be careful about assuming which behaviors on your part are negligent and careless and which are merely cosmetic annoyances.
Ex)
A few weeks earlier he was standing about 10 feet in front of the shomen with his back to it, talking to another student.
I can't tell you how many times the sensei turns his back to students during weapons class to walk somewhere else on the mat.

This is part of the ettiquette that has been described here... your sensei is MORE of an equal to O Sensei than you are... by walking between them (even though one is 'just' a picture) is tantamount to proclaiming to the dojo that you think you are better.

Also, consider this...sensei could be showing you a certain level of respect by trusting you to weild weapons behind his back. This is a very subtle way to recognize that trust/repect relationship that you all have.
________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________

Now from your first posting, these were honest mistakes. You may need to just take your lumps for it and move along.

I am seeing that you are carefully observing the sensei where/who he turns his back to, when/how/what is he getting upset about. What may serve you better is to select a senior ranking student or even a mid-level student from your dojo and let them in on your confusions/frustrations. Watch these people just as closely... they are more like your peers showing you what YOU need to be doing (obviosly emulating sensei isn't working :p ) and these peers may be more likely to give you the gentle guidance that you seek. After all, in some dojos it should never be the sensei's job to teach reigi, instead the sempai (older students) have that job. It may be that sensei was trying to let others know that too.

Lastly, consider that you are training a MARTIAL art. It may not be as flashy, dynamic, and fast paced as others but it still follows a code of ethics that is clearly still strange to you. There are aikido lessons to be had in even these minor conflicts. Step off line, blend and redirect. :circle:

No doubt that in your dojo you have the right to say whatever you want.
The truth is NO... I'm willing to bet my next paycheck that no aikidoka would EVER feel that they have the right to tell their sensei just any ol' offhand comment that springs to mind. I mean E - V - E - R. This person gave you the gift of thier knowledge and experience at a time when you didn't know that stuff. They helped you get to where you are now. You continue to show your respect for that gift until the day that you or sensei "shuffle off this mortal coil". I'm also willing to wager that even your sensei would never spout off to his previous teachers. (please don't read that to mean undying loyalty and subservience... I simply mean good, clean, honest, respect)

I say this from experience... my teacher is incredibly nice and understanding but I've often gotten the 'look of death' :disgust: and just barely caught myself.

My father had a comment:
Don't let your attitude/mouth write checks that your body can't cash.

Anyway, in closing your ORIGINAL questions were:
...Was I in the wrong? Was he? Were we both? Am I taking this too seriously? Does anyone have similar experiences or insights to share?
Yes, sorry to say you were. No your sensei was not. Maybe you're taking this too seriously right now, maybe not. You got redirected, unfortunately not the way you preferred. You have the collective experience of these 15+ folks and their opinions (which seem to concur). I suppose that if this behavior disturbs you a LOT and it continues you may need to find a place that better fits your needs.

Well, that's considerably longer than I had planned but there it is... take what you want and leave the rest :D

Happy training!

[Andrew R]

I think this response to Jonathan Lewis' post, along with a number of other smart-assed responses and smiley "just kidding" emoticons - sums your character perfectly.

You're absolutely right. I'm so ashamed that I had the audacity to use emoticons. I'm going to commit seppuku now... :sorry: (Oh no, I did it again!)

As your response goes on, you "count coup" on the instructor, tallying when he's open and when he's not & critique him for being a stickler for reigi, . Funny, you want to do aikido - but Ueshiba - a stickler for reigi - would send someone out of his dojo in a rage if they crossed their arms while watching him, much less tell him that he was incorrect in what he was teaching.
You are studying with someone who is an expert at a martial discipline (if not, why study with him?). You, in that wonderful American democratic spirit, feel the need to share what (you think) you know. Because you are equals, right? And he has no call to be rude! A martial art - a study of violence - and he egregiously runs the risk of hurting feelings, by not being "supportive."
He was kind enough (for he owes you nothing) to teach you something, and you have to prove him "not as right as he thinks." !!!???
Yes, there is true that one will not, likely, be in a sword fight. But it is profoundly disrespectful to human life to practice with a weapon without a fundamentally serious attitude. It sounds like your teacher is serious in what he does. Part of training is an acute sensitivity to the mood of your instructor. Why? Not because you owe him or her slavish devotion - but you use the instructor to hone that sensitivity in the laboratory of the dojo so you have access to it in the real world, thereby being able to read people's intentions. Yes, that "real world."
And I would wager something - based on the way you have responded to people who have offered you their take on the situation - you have probably breezily ignored any number of wishes and rules of the dojo , and his "rudeness" very possibly may have occured only after finding you didn't notice anything less.
And this is it in a nutshell. You would like to improve your "martial awareness," this ability to be a warrior or a fighting man - (and what other kind of martial awareness is there?) - but you will decide how you will learn this, not the instructor. Heaven forfend that the assailant you face some day might also be rude!
Ellis Amdur

Seriously, though, how on earth can you try to describe my "character" when you don't even know me? You and Jonathan Lewis both make good points, but the messages you've tried to convey have been overpowered by the condescending tone in which you've tried to convey them. You're right, maybe my instructor can get away with that because "he was kind enough to teach" me, but I certainly don't appreciate it from people I've never met and to whom I owe nothing. I've never taken well to needless rudeness by strangers.

Any student in a dojo on the mat during an aikido class is doing something dangerous.

This sounds like propaganda for DARE. I'm sorry, but this statement is preposterous.


The truth is NO... I'm willing to bet my next paycheck that no aikidoka would EVER feel that they have the right to tell their sensei just any ol' offhand comment that springs to mind. I mean E - V - E - R.

Just to clarify, it seems you thought I meant I was talking about the student's right. I made that comment to someone who was ostensibly a teacher, and I was refering collectively to teachers. I did not at all mean that the student should be able to act as he pleases...

[Kevin Leavitt]

Let me put character in another perspective.

1. Aikido is a very small community. At best you are probably 3 degrees of separation from anyone on this list, or any senior teacher.

Meaning that probably if you through a name out there to someone that has been studying a few years, then the chances are they have a friend that is a student of that guy, or has trained with him at some point.

2. Aikido is an art that requires at least a modicum of cooperation and respect for it to work. Even if you don't like someone, you at least of the courtesy to "shut up and train". (Again, I refer to #1).
(You will hear "shut up and train" ALOT in aikido, and we mean it in a postive way, not in a condscending way...unless you become a nusiance.

3. Yea, aikido is about cooperation, between those doing it. However, it is really transmitted from the "top down". i.e. if you want to learn it, you have to pretty much study with someone that is better than you. Typically those people have many years of experience. (Again, I refer to #1). It also requires you to invoke #2 in order to keep in harmony with #1.

4. Aikido does not require you to become a pacifist robot that blindly accepts what your teachers tell you without having an opinion...everyone knows you have an opinion and we expect you to think for yourself. The catch is that in order to do #3, you have to understand #1, and #2, and keep in perspective that while you are in the dojo...that you must keep your opinions to yourself, unless those that are higher rank than you ask for your opinion. It is simply the way a hierachial martial society works!

I am in the military, have been in it for 24 years...it always works that way. It is also that way in the dojo....there's a reason it is that way. No it is not to "boss people around" or to "enforce a napoleon complex" for sado masochistic people...it is to keep things safe and to allow for a healthy, progressive, and stable environment.

So, I could go on...but I think this point is made.

Anyway, I did find it interesting that you stated a few things in your first post, which tells us a few things about your and quite possibly your character...or at least your naviity.

1. You have been training for only 4 months. That tells me that you reallly don't have enough stick time to voice an opinion about much martially concerning aikido period. Heck, I've been at this for 10 years...I don't have an opinion when I enter my dojo! AND I'd tell you that I'd NEVER say what you said, even jokingly while holding a bokken! (by the number of post I have here...obviously I have opinions..right??? :))

2. I found it interesting that you posted "in the clear" when we have an anonymous feature that allows you to keep things 100% anonymous for discreteness. Granted you don't list your dojo, so yea, a certain amount of anonomity is afforded your sensei, but not much. This tells me a few other things.

a. You are probably naive to think that he or others in your dojo don't read aikiweb and can't extrapolate who Andrew Riegle might be. So, are you concerned at all about how this might be taken if they did figure this out? About the problems it may cause for your and other in your dojo? It is either naivity or you don't really care, take your pick.

b. OR, you are not using your REAL NAME in the post to cover up your tracks, thus you are not being honest with us.

So, this tells me that you are a new student, that had his feeling hurt that is probably frustrated that this is a strange new world that grew up thinking, as Ellis Amdur put it, thinking that the laws of a democratic society apply everywhere in every situation, that is naive about how things work in the world of aikido.

Am I making some assumptions? Yes, life is about making assumptions in absence of facts, it allows us to "fill in the gaps" and move forward...we always make assumptions in maritial arts....our job is to reduce the ones we have to make...that is what makes us more skilllful!

Anyway....I'd recommend keeping in mind that when you "throw out your dirty laundry" in the aikido community that it is a small community. We know each other...or at least we know someone who knows someone, and the people you piss off, regardless of your feelings are people that you may one day be training with, or may recieve instruction from. You'd be suprised!

I have found it to be a wonderful community. We don't agree on various things...philosophy, religion, techniques, shomenuchi, martial effectiveness etc.

One thing that I'd say we all agree on it respect and the seriousness in which we take "good order and discipline" within our community. Within that you will find that we are all in line with that.

Coupled with the fact that it is a small community, you can quickly find that you are not welcome if their is a chance that you can be a danger to yourself, others, or you disrupt the learning process of others.

Just consider that as you proceed!

[batemanb]

....... but I certainly don't appreciate it from people I've never met and to whom I owe nothing. I've never taken well to needless rudeness by strangers.....

Then don't publish on a public bulletin board.

I've never met Ellis either, but I do know of his reputation, and knowledge of traditional Japanese martial arts, if he ever posted in response to something I'd written, I'd take it note of what he had to say, regardless

[Dennis Hooker]

I do know Ellis and I am not a beginner. If he took the time to criticize something I said I would take it to heart and try to do better. He is a man of Integrity and honesty.
Dennis Hooker

Then don't publish on a public bulletin board.

I've never met Ellis either, but I do know of his reputation, and knowledge of traditional Japanese martial arts, if he ever posted in response to something I'd written, I'd take it note of what he had to say, regardless

[Andrew R]

2. I found it interesting that you posted "in the clear" when we have an anonymous feature that allows you to keep things 100% anonymous for discreteness. Granted you don't list your dojo, so yea, a certain amount of anonomity is afforded your sensei, but not much. This tells me a few other things.

a. You are probably naive to think that he or others in your dojo don't read aikiweb and can't extrapolate who Andrew Riegle might be. So, are you concerned at all about how this might be taken if they did figure this out? About the problems it may cause for your and other in your dojo? It is either naivity or you don't really care, take your pick.

b. OR, you are not using your REAL NAME in the post to cover up your tracks, thus you are not being honest with us."

Actually I didn't even know about the anonymous forum... I hadn't really scoured the forums too much before posting.

But regardless, even if I had known about the anonymous forum I don't know if I would have used it. It's not like my sensei couldn't figure out who I was if he read my post. I didn't slander anyone and I didn't say anything I would never say to my sensei. I have a lot of respect for him but I still preferred to get the opinions of others outside my dojo. In all truth I've been on vacation and couldn't talk to anyone in my dojo if I wanted to. This has just been bugging me.

Thanks for the enlightening words.

[Ron Tisdale]

Andrew, you need to get a clue. I'm with Ellis...If you ask a question, be willing to listen to the answer. If you ask for instruction, be willing to take it.

You don't have to follow it...but answering back in a rude fashion just makes you look bad. Maybe Japanese Budo isn't for you...there is nothing wrong with self-selecting yourself right out of it. Life is too short to pursue things you aren't interested in.

Best,
Ron

[lbb]

Seriously, though, how on earth can you try to describe my "character" when you don't even know me? You and Jonathan Lewis both make good points, but the messages you've tried to convey have been overpowered by the condescending tone in which you've tried to convey them. You're right, maybe my instructor can get away with that because "he was kind enough to teach" me, but I certainly don't appreciate it from people I've never met and to whom I owe nothing. I've never taken well to needless rudeness by strangers.

You're fighting this really hard, Andrew, and I don't think it's going to help you, because I don't think it's a good fight. I think I see a bit where you're coming from, though, and it's an understandable place -- or at least, I think I understand a bit of it. Allow me to ramble...

In the west, we tend to be proud of our "independence". I put that in quotes because it's the label we use for a whole host of attitudes and behaviors. Our belief in "independence" results in behaviors such as self-reliance, free-thinking, and creativity...but it also manifests itself in stubbornness, mistrustfulness, and failure to get with the program even when it's to our own benefit. Yet we so revere our notion of "independence", and these behaviors are so much a part of our makeup, that we often fail to see the line between healthy "independence", which allows us to make intelligent judgments and keeps us from drinking the kool-ade, and attitudes and behaviors that harm us, isolate us, and hinder our own development.

There are many areas where unhealthy "independence" will mess you up, but a learning environment of any kind is one of the most striking. It's hard to learn anything if you cannot trust your teacher. Even in a purely intellectual realm, you must at some point accept that what the teacher says is true and move on -- you can't simply say, "Prove it!", because while the teacher no doubt could, you as a novice could not understand the proof. At some point, if you are to learn, you have to set aside your need to understand the reason why at every step. You have to just do it. After time, the understanding will come -- but it's not something you could have understood as a noob.

Now you're probably feeling pretty peeved at me, thinking I'm calling you stubborn and mistrustful and a noob and all that. I'm really not -- at least, not you specifically. I'm talking about a way that some tendencies that are very common in members of our society, and how they can be really counterproductive. And in the context of a Japanese dojo, they're frankly dysfunctional, and they need to be dropped at the door, for the following reasons:

They are disrespectful. Wow, does it ever raise people's hackles when you say this! Another problem we have in the west is distinguishing between healthy respect and unhealthy servility. It's counterproductive, because it creates a wall between us and people who have a lot to teach. No one wants to teach someone who doesn't have regard for their knowledge. Also, there is the whole "when in Rome" thing -- when you go into a new environment, the rules of politeness change, and to be polite, you must go along with them. Consider, for example, the case where two people are facing each other in a hallway and talking, and you must pass by. In the US, we would probably walk behind one or the other of them, and would consider it rude to walk between them...but in Korea, it would be considered impolite to walk behind someone. Insisting on doing things the way they're done in general society, and particularly taking offense at something that is not offensive in the context of the dojo, is disrespectful and counterproductive.
They can lead to unsafe situations. This has already been explained at length, so I won't belabor it. I'll simply say that safety is one of the most important reasons to simply do as you're told in the dojo, to the best of your ability. Failure to do so means that even if you're not doing something inherently dangerous, you'll be behaving in unexpected ways, and that always increases the possibility of injury.
They hamper your ability to learn. If you don't let go of some so-called "independence", your training will be like the coyote running through the glue trap. There's a lot hidden in the small details of how we do things, which you can't fully appreciate without some mileage. Warmup exercises that seem like silly and embarrassing hand-waving suddenly start to feel right somehow; then one day you find them coming out as you execute a technique, and suddenly the technique is stronger, is surer, has more meaning. If you had said, back on day 1, "Sensei, why are we doing this silly waving-our-arms thing?", would you have understood an explanation? Without even a day's worth of training in techniques as a framework? Or would you simply have interrupted your learning (and others') demanding a verbal explanation that you wouldn't understand?

Anyway...apologies for the long ramble. I'm not saying that you embody all these negative things, Andrew. I am saying that our culture does predispose us in these ways, and that they're things we need to give up if we want to train in a dojo. Personally, I think we're better off without them -- if we can find a safe place to do so, where our trust won't be abused. You have a better chance of finding that environment in a dojo than in most other places. So, please consider this. If you decide, after thinking it over, that you can't let those things go, then think about whether the dojo -- any dojo -- is a good place for you, at least for right now.

[Aristeia]

let me add to this. Even if you don't accept your attitude (in this particular instance, or I'd guess in general) creates a safety issue, it certainly distracts from the training. Sensei was making a point, it was a point he needed you to get and show him you had adjusted your technique so he could move on to helping the next guy. "Flippant" comments which underneath look to say "well I could do it my way" just waste time - his, yours, the rest of the students. That's possibly why he came down on you - particularly if this is a habitual thing which I'd suspect it is. That suspicion based on your tone in this thread (which lets remember *you* started) and the fact that in my experience such behaviour never occurs in isolation.

And it's not even just about a strict japanese inspired environment. I run a BJJ school -when I teach BJJ I am *much* less formal than I was when I taught Aikido - it's a completely different culture, no bowing no overt ritual etc. But comments of an ilk of the one you've described annoy me just as much as a coach on the BJJ mat as they did when I was teaching Aikido. Because they are self serving, show a resistance to instruction and waste time.

[mathewjgano]

Are there people who don't mind at all being talked to this way? I'm serious. :confused: ...I'm not so sure that the shomen thing was a lack of trust on his part so much as him being a stickler for reishiki, and that's why I think he could have been a little less stern when blocking my path.

I absolutely understand him (and want him to) helping me improve my sense of martial awareness, but one can be a demanding teacher without being a rude one.

My guess is that there are people who don't mind being talked to that way, yes. I've known folks who seemed to speak in harsher tones simply as a matter of fact...one roomate in particular who came from south Philadelphia took quite some time to get used to for me. Colloquial mannerisms aside, part of the point of such speech is to instill a sense of importance. I can't say what the thinking of your sensei was/is, which is why i suggested you ask him or a senior student. It's my opinion that in order to assess rudeness, one has to understand the intent behind the actions. Your sensei may be misreading you for all I know, but maybe he thinks a little altruistic severity of speech is something you need to interact with. Maybe he'd be right; maybe he'd be wrong. It's impossible for me to tell one way or the other and there are as many possible reasons as one can imagine there to be. Still, I do think there is a severe tradition in the martial arts, even Aikido, and that it can serve a good purpose. OSensei was often laughing and often stern from what I've seen of photos and read from first-hand accounts. I think this speaks to an important and subtle, though perhaps complicated, element of Aikido.
We can all make inferances about your personality here and we may or may not be correct, but clearly you feel offended and if you want to resolve those feelings, you should address them directly...though obviously with tact. To that, the "yeah but..." function in my brain says even if your sensei somehow fell short in his ability to remain polite (as opposed to having a good intent for being stern), you should still be demonstrative of the tact you feel he was lacking. And with that tact, I would hope you would be open-minded enough to accept a reasonable response, whatever that might be.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that insults can't be given; they can only be taken. Since I've begun to adopt this view I've found fewer and fewer people bother me, and I've met some "interesting" folks. Add to that the fact the we all have our baggage and each of us works on that baggage from different starting points and it begins to get even easier for me. I guarentee you that you're more in tune with some things than your sensei, and this may be a situation where this is the case, but for all I can tell from this detached mode of communication called the internet, it could potentially be the other way around too.
You say he's probably just being a stickler for reishiki (as opposed to fretting over trust), but reishiki, for some, is emblematic of something much more important than simple niceties. Add to that the cultural affect of the often strict hierarchy of Japanese Budo and it makes it seem like your sensei may just be repeating the kind of lessons he was taught.

[Bronson]

This reminds of those people who violate the rules of the road while driving and get irate when you honk your horn at them.

You did something wrong and were called on it. Admit your responsibility, say thank you and don't do it again. Later when you're a senior student you can pass this info on to juniors.

Bronson

[Joseph Madden]

Being able to read your sensei is a talent that be fostered only through repetitive training, like any other aspect of the art. Being a newcomer to the art you haven't yet learned this particular aspect. When I first started training I was lucky to have some excellent seniors who told me what was expected from a new student with regards to the rules of the dojo along with my own independent research into reishiki. Often times seniors forget to tell new students what is expected of them on the mat and this can make for some embarrassing moments. Sometimes students don't want to hear about rules and they eventually leave the dojo. My question to you is; Did any senior students mention these rules to you? Where the rules of the dojo made apparent before you started?
Did you make yourself aware of any rules that would be expected of you before you started training by doing research? Mary had earlier mentioned the difference between the independent spirit of western culture and the assimilative nature of some eastern cultures. By stepping into a dojo you are essentially walking into another world. Before deciding on whether or not to leave your dojo, continue to watch and learn for awhile. You may be surprised by what you find.

[Michael Hackett]

Darn, Bronson said it all in just twenty words! Everything else is just frosting on his cake. Well done, Mr. B!

[Rupert Atkinson]

I have met stern teachers and have never had a problem with it at all - it is part of the experience. I am not stern though, and am not really bothered if beginners make mistakes - let's face it, everything they do is a mistake for years - well, it was for me.

And just look back to your skool days - certain kids - probably in every skool on the planet - will say: "What are you looking at kid?" This is a certain part of skool life etiquette that kids learn. It means: "Learn not to look at me as I find it threatening." It is also used to spoil for trouble and to exert authority. So kids learn not to look these bullies in the eyes. That is a kind of martial skool etiquette.

Some people, however, still do it when they are grown up ... Others, learn to do it when grown up and enjoy it ... Others apply it to different contexts ... it is everywhere ... especially in traditional dojos. I just take it with a pinch of salt. Ya can't be too serious.

[Cypher]

Wow, this thread really went some where in the last 24 hours........

[senshincenter]

As I'm reading this, I'm finding myself reminded of The Mirror's latest article:

"Points of etiquette that to me don't seem to have any practical purpose at all are difficult to remember, and corrections are harder to swallow, too. But why is it really so unpleasant? If it makes me feel humiliated or ridiculed or embarrassed, where are those feelings coming from? If openly asking his students to follow common points of etiquette is a sign of a teacher's big ego, what size is my ego that I find it so demeaning?"

I think this ties in nicely with Mary's excellent posts, and also with what Michael said here:

"But comments of an ilk of the one you've described annoy me just as much as a coach on the BJJ mat as they did when I was teaching Aikido. Because they are self serving, show a resistance to instruction and waste time."

For me, there is one issue here, and that one issue is coming to its singularity via two things that are always interrelated in traditional martial arts training: reconciliation of the ego, and exposure to danger. That is to say, at least in my experience, the more ego you got to reconcile, the more dangerous you are (because of the more reactionary - out of control - you are), the more the training is going to have you face a danger, one where non-reactionary control is mandated, the more you are going to reconcile your fear, pride, and ignorance (i.e. ego attachment).

So, from one point of view, it might be possible to see a flippant remark as no big deal, but from another point of view, one I consider to be very relevant to martial arts training, there is no more a telling sign of what work needs to be done, and what direction one should head in order to do it.

One could gain a lot more from this situation by asking himself not "Why did he say that to me?" or "Wasn't that rude?" but instead asking, "What kind of heart/mind, what level of ego reconciliation, is necessary to simply have had answered "Yes Sensei" and do what was instructe - ?. In other words, it's in the contrast of the two types of heart/mind that you see what is trained and what is not - what is cultivated and what is not - via your Budo training.

When we train in firearms, we have different stages for our handguns, and also for the range, throughout the various exercises. For example, we would have our weapons unloaded, actions open, etc., whenever we are not on the firing line. When we load our weapons, we will only do so on the firing line. When we do that, the range is often referred to as "hot" - so too with our weapons, etc. However, when we are not on the firing line, when our weapons are not loaded, when our actions are open, when the range is not "hot," we don't go around pointing our weapons at folks, for example. We don't go around acting or "knowing" like everything is safe, and everything is no big deal, where no one is going to get shot or hurt, etc. Instead, we treat the weapons in the same exact way as if they were loaded and the range was hot.

Additionally, there are many training exercises we do with weapons that cannot fire, such as red guns, aluminum guns, or weapons that have been modified with training barrels. And guess what? We still treat those as if they are hot. Why? Because that's the culture, that's the training, that's the profession. In these situations, no one would ever dream of even pointing a toy gun, let alone a clear and safe weapon, at someone - not unless they wanted everyone around them to know that they don't belong there. Additionally, if they did, plastic, unloaded, aluminum, training barrel, etc., any rangermaster worth his/her salt is going to give them a lot more than a few choice words for such actions.

I'm not relating this because I think it is exactly the same situation. However, there is a lot of overlap, and that overlap is this: Folks that train in weapons, if they are professionals, are going to treat said weapons seriously - always. Part of the reason why the teacher's response might seem rude is because one might want to treat the situation as if it is no big deal, the way one might want to treat pointing an aluminum gun at someone as no big deal, the way one might want to treat a flippant remark as no big deal, etc. However, if you are dealing with professionals, while they know its an aluminum gun, while they know it's just a flippant remark, just a wooden sword that you are not swinging around, just walking passed behind them, etc., they will do everything they can to serious your act up, and quick, because not getting you to serious up has you not acting like a professional, has you acting like some that is not trained, as someone unsafe to be around, etc.

True, there may have been many ways for your teacher to handle the situation, but it's not so out of the ordinary how he did. Additionally, I do not think that alternative courses of action would have worked all that much for you - my opinion. Because at the heart of the matter is that you were looking to make light of things that your instructor wanted you to take seriously. In that light, no matter what he said, it was going to come out rude, as nothing he would have said could have been light. For if he said anything light, he would have deviated from the lesson at hand and violated his own professional code of conduct. And an instructor that would do the latter is not an instructor you'd really want to train under. Meaning, if he did what you think you really wanted, you would have been the worse for it than by getting a little verbal-judo atemi on the nose, as you would have lost a teacher worth having.

d

[Ron Tisdale]

Darn...David, that was beautiful.

Best,
Ron

[Rupert Atkinson]

Excellent post, David. On reflection maybe I should be a little more serious ... thanks.

And now that I have boosted your ego a little - what are you going to do about it ;)

[Aristeia]

spot on David. That post should be part of a newbie's handbook...

[ChrisMoses]

I'm sorry, this guy just sounds like he was being rude. It's entirely possible to give stern authoritative correction without trodding all over the ego of your students. A lot of time you hear the excuse that we're stepping into a foreign space/ exploring a different culture and therefore there's a lot of confusion on the part of the student as to what is expected. I think the problem comes when the teacher mixes Western bluntness with Eastern etiquette rules. Yes there are safety reasons for lots of dojo etiquette, but there's also a lot of crap that simply serves to keep people 'in their place' so to speak. A lot of this is unhealthy hold over from the militarization of Japanese budo during the lead up to WW2 and bares little resemblance to classical budo dojo dynamics. A good dojo operates like a healthy family, not a boot camp.

To give some context to my statements, I will share the following. I started Aikdio at a "more Japanese than the Japanese" Aikido dojo. I have pulled "kohai" (I really don't like that term outside of Japan) off the mat and into the hall to chew them out for some minor and petty infraction of the rules. I used the phrase, "Don't talk back to me," in complete honesty to grown adults. That was stupid. It was expected of me, and it was my place in that dojo, but it was not OK or justifyable. It was my imaturity that let me believe that was the way dojos should operate. The whole thing was a twisted mash-up of conservative Japan and conservative/wanna-be military US. It doesn't work like that.

Then after I left that dojo, I found my current sword teacher. Between training with him and travelling to Japan to train with the rest of our ryu-ha it really opened my eyes to how more traditional dojo actually run. It feels like family. Seniors get respect because they deserve it, but they don't lord it over the juniors. You want to do well to make them proud, not to keep them from yelling at you. Even the gruffer old curmudgeons who are always barking corrections are the first to pour your beer after class. They respect you and your efforts, laugh at you when you put your foot in your mouth and pat you on the back when you do something well.

As for the seriousness that comes from weapon training, it's true that some instructions have to be brief and authoritative for safety sake. I teach sword and there are lots of little details (like always covering the tsuba with the thumb when in class) that are hard for people to remember at first and take lots of reminders. I've found that simply saying, "Please cover your tsuba" usually does the trick. After a couple reminders during the same class a newer student starts to feel pretty silly. And that's the thing, they aren't mad at me for lording a rule over them, but frustrated with themselves for making the same silly mistake over and over. That's a much different headspace.

It's far too easy to an overzealous Western student to adhere to rules and etiquettes to a degree that is beyond their intended purpose and to enforce/correct in a manner that is itself a form of poor etiquette. That's something that often gets missed (IMHO). I've seen some really amazingly rude stuff done in the name of enforcing some small subset of Japanese social norms.

Here's an example, names changed/with held to protect the guilty.

A couple years ago I went down to watch part of a class with a visiting Shihan at a dojo that is affiliated with my teacher. This particular club is/was joint affiliated with us and with this Shihan. Anyway, so I go down there with another student, my teacher and my teacher's teacher (both of whom are senior to the affiliated dojo's dojo cho). The seminar is being held in a large gym. We got there a bit late since we were only going to be watching the afternoon session. We walk in and class is already going, so we move away from the door and stand in the back of the gym. We're all being quiet, hands are out of our pockets folded in front. The Dojo Cho sees us and comes over, we're all expecting a, "Hello, welcome" or something. But no, we get, "You can't be standing there, Sensei is very upset that people are standing while he's teaching, you'll have to find a seat or I'll have to ask you to leave." I'm sorry, wha??? We look around and there are no open chairs. So we all have to climb up onto a pile of exercise equipment and balance beams in the corner of the gym. I'm sure that the visiting Shihan was upset about people gawking. According to his rules we were being rude by just standing there. According to other rules that I've been exposed to, it's rude to just pop in and make yourself comfortable without being acknowledged. Classic example of someone trying to enforce rules without understanding thier complexity. It was rude not to have enough chairs for people to sit on. It was rude not to have a junior student (if it was that big of a deal for this Shihan) directing legitimate interested parties to those chairs and directing the interested basketball players back out into the hall. Even given the situation as it played out, he could have said, "Welcome Sensei, can I find you a seat? Shihan has asked that observers sit down while class is in session. Thank you!" How hard is that? Tatemae anyone?

[Keith Larman]

Chris:

I understand what you're saying and agree with you quite a bit. But I've also known students who were, how shall I say it, rather dense with this sort of stuff? I've seen a few over the years that tend to make flippant comments, wave off instruction, etc. Maybe its their own coping mechanism or their way of deflecting perceived criticisms of their abilities. But I've known a few who have a habit of continually making comments like that and after a while it just gets grating. And if I was demonstrating something with weapons, asked a student to make a certain cut, then watched them do something different and deflect the correction by saying "this would be effective too", well, I'd probably get pretty darned short with him too.

And I've seen these guys get corrections and later stomp off angry about being singled out. All while they have been told repeatedly to correct the behavior. Often starting nice and friendly and finally over time ending up with "fix it or leave". The very person who tends to wave off corrections and give flippant comments usually doesn't realize how many corrections they've been given nor how annoying those "wave-offs" can get. And once it gets to the point past polite requests they tend to be surprised that others are frustrated with them.

Of course I'm talking about my experiences here and not the OP. I don't know the OP nor what sort of relationship he's had. For all I know it was a first time/only time issue. But like I said, I've had guys who seem to be completely unaware of repeated attempts to get them to fix something. And making those sort of off-hand comments is usually something those very same people tend to do, at least in my experience.

Shrug...

[Aiki1]

I'm sorry, this guy just sounds like he was being rude.

I'm with you here Chris (:))

I have to wonder what the issue here might really be. I am well acquainted with the importance of discipline, feedback, and necessary adherence to rules etc. in a dojo. But there is a huge difference to me in teaching someone through serious, diligent, and direct feedback and instruction and coherent modeling, and behavior that may be simply ego and control-based - which I have seen more often than not in Aikido dojo over the years.

To me, this may be the issue here, as the original poster has already acknowledged early on that his behavior was perhaps not the most appropriate. The (even extreme) seriousness of a situation can be conveyed in many ways that are not rude or condescending at all. In fact, I doubt that kind of response often achieves what it is portrayed here by some as intending to do - likely just the opposite, as it is usually polarizing rather than instructive. It's probably a good idea as a teacher to ask oneself what the goal is, rather than, what will make me feel good about myself.

[ChrisMoses]

I hear you Keith. I recall an incident a few years ago at my last Aikido dojo with a student who just didn't ever seem to 'get it'. I was watching class since I had a broken arm, and kept noticing this particular student's mouth/jaw moving in a strange way. Finally it dawned on me that he was chewing gum during class. I called him over to the side of the mat and asked him if he was chewing gum. "Yeah." I didn't bother to go into all the many reasons this was a bad idea, I just told him, "Dude, go spit it out. Don't chew gum during class." I found out later he considered this one of the defining moments of how he felt the seniors of the dojo acted "elitist" towards him. The guy was my father's age, but I wasn't holding him accountable to some odd Asian ethic. It's just a bad idea to chew gum while training, you could choke, you could bite yourself or you could just spit it out accidentally and get it into the canvas mat. Anyone could be expected to know better (IMHO).

So yeah, I get where you're coming from, and obviously there's no way to know exactly what happened or what led up to the OP's first post. I still feel that it's too easy to go down the line of thinking that whatever comes out of an instuctor's mouth is the WORD and it is a personality flaw for the student not to appreciate every drop of wisdom. That's for Kung Fu movies. ;) (And no, I don't mean to imply that was what you were endorsing.)

[Basia Halliop]

It sounds quite rude to me too, personally... Even if you're going to snap at someone (which is a big if in and of itself) it's only reasonable to make sure you've told them the thing you don't want them to do at least once first. But I also agree that rudeness can be very subjective. It's probably less useful for the poster to ask whether the teacher was 'appropriate' or 'rude' than just to ask himself if, overall, there are enough things he likes and respects about his dojo and Sensei to justify this thing he doesn't like.

Because it's not like it really matters that much how he labels the teacher's behaviour (although for me personally, it is not behaviour I would be proud to emulate), what matters is whether it's something he can deal with or whether it's a deal breaker for him. Every human being has some bad qualities or qualities you don't like as much about them or things you don't see eye to eye about, the thing is is it bad enough to make you lose respect for him or not want to be there, and if not, how can you learn to get used to it and work within it.

[Ron Tisdale]

Also good posts, including the ones that take different viewpoints from mine. Lost of good stuff in this thread...I'm actually glad its here.

Best,
Ron

[Mattias Bengtsson]

What I cant understand is why when people have been the target of doing some infraction of some rule they are unaware off or can't understand, why on earth they didn't think about inquiring WHAT it is that they did wrong or WHY it was wrong, instead of just going 'how rude'
The guy with the Marine who didn't like being pointed at, or the guy with the chopsticks, or the kid with the chewing gum.
Is there some kind of weird pride about not showing that you are unable to understand and "can you please explain?"
When its already quite appearant that you indeed ARE ignorant about why you shouldn't do something.

Acknowledge that you made a mistake, but that you in an effort in trying to improve yourself are trying to understand and learn.

Granted, it can be embarrassing to have the sensei to come over and explain, once more, the technique youre supposed to be doing.
He (or she) might think you are stupid because you are unable to understand something at first.
But trying to do it, and doing it wrong, are like proving it.

Same thing with rules.

[MikeLogan]

Andrew, I bet you feel like a guy who is told to relax, but can't begin to relax until everyone gets off his case about relaxing. That used to bug the heck out of me. The funny thing is that in every case, the example above, your instructor's severity, the posters in this thread, your betterment and well-being, and truthfully the well-being of those you train with, are at the heart.

I have thankfully committed only one serious transgression so far in my aikido training. It was 8 months in, and I knew it was wrong the moment the bokken left my hand. The shihan clapped for us to observe the next technique, and I intended to remove the bokken used in the paired practice to the edge of the mat. I only lobbed it two feet, and after a small slappy bounce it landed right where I wanted it, thankfully. The student I was training with immediately said: "Dude, don't ever do that again." Luckily I quickly grasped why, and without explanation. It was disrespectful of the bokken as both a weapon and a training implement. Then there is the disrespect to the mat, and onward to the dojo as a whole.

I was torn between the need to set the weapon aside, and obeying the instructor immediately. I thought I was choosing the lesser of two evils, but there is an eventually discernible hierarchy of what you should do in the various permutations of interaction in a dojo. A lot of this sort of thing is far less obvious than what I describe, and there are several instances of "dysfunctional etiquette", such as Christian Mosses has described of his younger self, and what he has received from others.

Etiquette may seem arbitrary, as arbitrary as the assumptions made in this thread about yourself, and as the assumptions you have made about how to interact with your instructor. Instead, it may help to view etiquette as a means of reducing the dependence on assumption, thereby enabling stronger assumptions about people who are breaking etiquette.

Another thing, though it may be annoying, is to take your instructor's severity as a compliment, a sign that he thinks you can take a little tough teaching. Perhaps ask a senior student, or the instructor, to make a list of behaviors expected, and the reasons behind them. This sort of thing is not any different from learning proper ukemi. You may be forced into the mat, but you will know if, when, and why it is happening.

Of all the people to comment so far, probably I am the closest to you in terms of experience, and I've been training 4 years come next month. There are at least 3 to 4 instructors in this thread alone that account for nearly 100 years of practice in Aikido, combined, if not longer, and they don't post at the drop of a hat, either. On top of that, the advice and insight you've seen from others of perhaps less renown is just as valuable. If there was ever a printed edition of AikiWeb archive, I'd look for this thread to be in it.

Thanks all, and thanks Andrew for starting it. (even if you did get a clubbing). The content will eventually far outweigh the impetus of this thread's creation.

michael.

Ever wonder why you hold the door for ladies to walk through first? I bet everyone a dollar that the first so-called gentleman to do it figured that a potential attacker would lose both surprise and then the will to execute upon seeing a lady enter before the target.