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Daniel Ranger-Holt
12-31-2007, 03:53 AM
In short i don't have the time it's going to take to keep going at this art...and it's a shame, and a bit embaressing for me, after all this time put into it...

I'm not sure exactly how long ive been studying / doing Aikido but its got to be about two years now i think, i attend lessons three times a week for the most part but the last few months it's slowly grinded to a halt. My enthusiasm for the art and what i feel i'm personally getting from the art. Which is very little. Perhaps it's my teacher i'm unsure but for the job i now do, Door Supervisor Aikido seems impractical Or should i say..my aikido...what ive been taught??

After two years commited learning i feel the enviornment of the mat, the bowing, the measured, often slow mo attacks, and the spiritual aspect thats to heavily influenced the art, hasn't at all prepared me for real face to face confrontations and attacks. Nearly all the techniques ive learn are useless in a split second attack when a fist is flying at you, someone is up in your face, red faced BOOM they swing. Grapple you to the floor etc I feel very 'empty' with Aikido, and thats the only way i can describe it. In all honesty i've gone back to street fighting. But without the fists or feet as my job wont allow it. Jus basic throw downs, bear hugs etc. But no Aikido, it just doesnt work, or hasnt felt natural.

Watch videos of real fights, caught on CCTV. And look at the speed someone geared up can throw a fist, split second. In no way can a technique be applied in a split second. And ive seen this with my own eyes, and its really REALLY woken me up...thus my choice to persue another art, and gracefully leave aikido behind.

It should have all clicked when i was told "you wont even begin to touch the basics for 5 years" etc etc. and talks of the "20 year technique" looking around at the dojos i've been to, and the people. It's more of a meeting gathering event than solid, hard self defence, neautrilizing. So i think all along i've picked the wrong art...and its very frustrating. Im 29 in three months, not getting any younger really. But you learn from these things and move on in life. Jo waving, and Bokken slashing, Ki channeling, and grabbing of wrists. But no sparring, hard contact, real REAL neautrilization i see all of this i actually needed, for my personal preference and i have picked the wrong art.

It's important to let people know in my opinion, and i belive i have the right to voice it. Its important that those new to aikido know that if they wish to learn an art for self defence and to be able to handle them selves if a fight confrontation was to happen. Then Aikido isn't the ideal choice for many reasons. It takes way to long to learn, it's more of a life growth art, as opposed to something you can be good at in 6 months etc. And on the mat is just so completely different to flinching, shouting, flailing aggressors, and i see this first hand five nights of the week. I think my job opened up my eyes to this...

I work two very bad clubs for three nights of the week, and ok clubs the other two nights, and i've never actually used any Aikido technique, without knowing it im sure the endless tai sabaki's have helped me movement wise, they must have. But as far as actual techniques? in real situations i've just taken someone to the ground, open hand slapped if i feel im in danger, or headlocked. Not once have i applyed a Nikkyo, Yonkyo, Shinage, etc and i'm dissapointed i havent. In reality everything happens way to fast to use Aikido techniques alone for the kind of job im doing, or for real street self defenceand i only noticed this since i started...

Of course there will be doormen who it works for and who use it. Perhaps they learned quicker, had better teachers etc or another art to back them up, but i was pure aikido no other arts. And i find the techniques in Aikido useless in real life situations. in fact, ive almost created my own system of holds, takedows etc through natural learning trial and error when confronted with people. And ive only been on the doors for 4 months.

The art i should have spent the last two years doing is an art called Krav Maga, another doorman introduced me to. No grading, no bowing, no spiritial stuff, no ki energy, no sticks, just short quick self defence in all situations, grappling, guns, knives he's been doing it for 3 months with no other background and it works, ive seen him use it in front of me on about four occasions. The streets are very very very nasty, when you see someone smash a pint glass in front of you and run for your face screaming...it's then when you realise the niceness and the "aikido is turning your back" approach is jus plain silly.

Also there seems to be almost something shameful about being able to learn an art quickly in Aikido/Martial art circles. But in practicality, if you can learn an art in 3-6 months, then just improve and improve...whats bad about that? Becoming good in 5 years may be honourable etc etc but in real life...? on the streets?? And even then, you wouldnt be able to throw a punch or even a kick if you needed to?? if you really really needed to??

I dont want those new to aikido to make the same mistake i did, and waste two maybe more years on something for the wrong reasons. Aikido is very relaxing, and i'm sure it has good stuff in there as far as how the body works, etc. And if someone was slow enough all the techniques could work. But i havent once...on my life seen anyone throw a punch as slow as they do in an aikido dojo, or aikido videos ive watched. SNAP...thats how they normally come flying. Out of the blue. Move out the way fine, but what then? throw a shinoage on them. We can all type about what we think would work, but try actually being there...

I personally feel in Aikido (because thats the only martial art i know) locks holds etc are not practical in a street situation. Unless you've had a good 5 or so years solid Aikido to perfect them? and thats just way to long. Aikido techniques I'd imagine most people like ive found i have, discard them almost completely and do what feels right..and in a split second, its not a yonkyo or shionage. Its a grapple, or a slap/punch if needed. Very ugly but very true.

BJJ, Chinese Kickboxing, Judo, Muay Thai, out of all of them Krav Maga seems to be the most practical and simple. In barely a month i feel like i could do something. 2 years with Aikido and im still unsure...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ajaQ2j0Al0

skip to 1:48 if you dont want to watch the whole thing. But its this point in the video which really hit home, the boxes the arts are put in, and how if you just want to defend yourself, and learn as quickly as possible...how to defend yourself. Also the point earlier on the guy makes about its not pretty, meant to be flowing, but simply meant to defend you, so you can run...

anyway...

Just my personal opinion and my thoughts. Maybe i will be back to post in a year how i'm doing with the Krav Maga but from this point on. I'm hanging up my Aikido KI and waving goodbye to the art with as much respect as is possible...

Not for me.

Thanks for reading have a happy and SAFE new year.

stuarttheobald
12-31-2007, 04:04 AM
I find what you have written quite interesting and to some stage correct.

If you are always training to do aikido at a slow speed then your techniques will improve but your ability to deal with a full speed attack will not.

I have been lucky enough to spend some time training with Sensei Joe Thambu who trainined aikido and then went to become a doorman to see if it was practical and useful. He found it was, and then went onto to produce a dvd showing restraint and removal techniques as a result.

I'd have a look at that dvd, it might help join the dots from your current level of aikido to a place where it becomes more functional for your job

Erik Jögimar
12-31-2007, 04:45 AM
This is something i've been fighting with alot past few weeks, the insecurity and worry that it doesnt work if i find myself in confrontation. Or should i say *my aikido*?

No paths are forever. Nothing remains the same. If this is how you feel, then you're aware that this is not for you any longer and its time to move on.

Well done, and best of luck with whatever you undertake.

Mark Uttech
12-31-2007, 04:47 AM
The only story that immediately came to my mind reading this thread, was the story of Terry Dobson working as a bouncer, disarming a drunk wielding a chainsaw.

In gassho,

Mark

justin
12-31-2007, 06:58 AM
I hear what your saying and have been there felt that many times almost every session I end up thinking hmm that doest seem to work but just because it doesn’t work for me doesn’t mean Aikido doesn’t work it means my Aikido doest work, anyway you have made your choice which I totally respect.

On the video you have posted a lot of those kicks mostly based on karate versions appear to lack basic understanding and practicality.

Wishing you all the best for a difficult job.

Kevin Leavitt
12-31-2007, 07:00 AM
Been there, had the same issues...still do to a degree!

Leave Aikido, find something else that fits what you are looking for, that fits your goals.

I did, and suprisingly it helped me better understand aikido!

I now study it with a different outlook and perspective.

For me it was Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Modern Army Combatives.

Aikido did not change. I just now have a better outlook I think of where it fits into my life.

You can't make it something it is not, and sounds like you have found that out!

Good luck

crbateman
12-31-2007, 08:45 AM
There was a time that I experienced some of the feelings that you have shared. For me, I stuck it out, and have been very glad that I did. I cannot adequately describe the level of great experiences I have shared with some truly remarkable people through my Aikido. But it has also taught me that it's not for everybody. Maybe it's not for you. Maybe it's not what you were looking for to begin with, hence your disappointment. Follow your gut, and you will find your way.

DonMagee
12-31-2007, 08:50 AM
I can understand your points, but you seem to be contradicting yourself. You say your job does not allow you to use strikes, yet you claim krav maga is better for your job? My training in krav maga was not about restraint, it was about killing people as fast as possible.

It would seem to me that a pure grappling art would be much more useful.

Aikibu
12-31-2007, 09:28 AM
I have told dozens of students over the years If you're not happy with Aikido go get a Shodan in something else THEN give Aikido a go...Your perspective may change a bit. :)

Good Luck. Some of your post (as Don Hinted at) does not make sense but hey what do you know? No disrespect but you're just a beginner.

Again Good Luck.

William Hazen

P.S. If you're working as a bouncer at a bar Then Aikido actually works GREAT...At least that is my experiance. Restraint, Diplomacy and Martial Awareness are the tools of a good bouncer. Having a Good Left Hook is cool too but destroying unrulely drunks usually leads to to you getting destroyed in return either by his friends or the legal system.

grondahl
12-31-2007, 10:56 AM
Good for you! Life is to short to waste on stuff you don´t enjoy or believe in.

odudog
12-31-2007, 11:29 AM
When you do the Krav Maga, make sure to evaluate it against what you have already learned in your short time in Aikido. You will find out that it almost the same. The techniques will have different names and emphasis placed on different points, but the overall thing is still the same. A shihonage will always be shihonage. I've been watching Human Weapon and came to this conclusion despite the fact that my sensei has been telling this to me for years. The Krav Maga section in Human Weapon, the instructor was talking about Blasting and how it is unique to Krav Maga. I caught myself laughing for I have been taught this in Aikido years ago. We don't have a name for it, but we do it just about every class.

SeiserL
12-31-2007, 11:30 AM
Then I bow back with a smile
as you bow politely
and leave the dojo.

lbb
12-31-2007, 12:14 PM
Daniel,

Neither aikido nor any other style is going to be all things to all people, so I've no issue with what you say there. I'm curious, though, if it was a case of being sold a bill of goods when you joined up, or if you heard what you wanted to hear. Were you actually told that you would be able to quickly learn techniques that you could use to subdue an angry drunk without harm to either one of you?

Lyle Bogin
12-31-2007, 02:30 PM
That whole thing sounded like planted advertising, with the video add to match.

We should do a reverse one....I was able to lay the smack down with ease. Gators feared my ground techniques. I was a bouncer in war zone (special hand-to-gun unit). but I never felt complete until ....AIKIDO! changed my life forever

DW Ederer
12-31-2007, 03:42 PM
My Sensei is in charge of loss prevention at a big box retailer. He makes a number of arrests a week and teaches his employees how to make arrests. He has found aikido a very effective tool to quickly get people to the ground and hand cuffed. It seems to work quite well for him and for us against the fast round houses, kicks, etc. I think it's more how you practice rather than the actual techniques. All the students have found resistance just doesn't work if you're trained to capture motion and effectively apply techniques. It's not always pretty or precise but the primary techniques do work well.

I've also trained with some secret service agents that practice aikido because it will get people to the ground quickly and effectively.

By all means explore other methods but don't be surprised if some of you aikido training doesn't help what ever you transition into.

nagoyajoe
12-31-2007, 03:43 PM
Bye.

Aristeia
12-31-2007, 03:47 PM
I can understand your points, but you seem to be contradicting yourself. You say your job does not allow you to use strikes, yet you claim krav maga is better for your job? My training in krav maga was not about restraint, it was about killing people as fast as possible.

It would seem to me that a pure grappling art would be much more useful.
What Don said - Krav seems an odd choice given your comments. Having watched the vid I am also not sure what they mean by the "full contact" part of full contact krav - looked to me like most krav I've seen - no contact at all to speak of in the training....?

DonMagee
12-31-2007, 04:07 PM
After reading this again, I noticed a few more things that bother me about this. SO, I'm going to point them out (slow day here)


After two years commited learning i feel the enviornment of the mat, the bowing, the measured, often slow mo attacks, and the spiritual aspect thats to heavily influenced the art, hasn't at all prepared me for real face to face confrontations and attacks.

The video you post below has the exact same kind of training in it. The exact same kind of techniques. How is the training method different?



BJJ, Chinese Kickboxing, Judo, Muay Thai, out of all of them Krav Maga seems to be the most practical and simple. In barely a month i feel like i could do something. 2 years with Aikido and im still unsure...


If you still only 'feel' you can do something, your training methods are still lacking. I know exactly what I am capable of in any given situation. This is a common problem with the types of training you are seeking out, and why I stopped training krav maga. 'Feeling' is not good enough.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ajaQ2j0Al0

skip to 1:48 if you dont want to watch the whole thing. But its this point in the video which really hit home, the boxes the arts are put in, and how if you just want to defend yourself, and learn as quickly as possible...how to defend yourself. Also the point earlier on the guy makes about its not pretty, meant to be flowing, but simply meant to defend you, so you can run...

anyway...



After watching that video, I fail to see how it is any different than the aikido I was taught. Except for they didn't wear gi.

Robert Cowham
12-31-2007, 04:09 PM
There are many different ways of studying aikido.

One option might be to try with Dave Ruebens who teaches Yoshinkan style, as well as one of the most well known and attended Bouncer training seminars in London.

http://www.tipped.co.uk/listings/7803/Meidokan+Aikido+Dojo

Yoshinkan isn't particularly my preference, but given Dave's background it might suite you.

Robert

Don
12-31-2007, 04:45 PM
There is no doubt that if you work a job that requires you to use non-lethal force and in a controlled manner, you need to have concentrated quick training that will give you something to work with. In general, aikido does not provide this path. If you LIKE aikido, and are willing to stick with it long enough you will find that if can be very effective. If you somehow either thought or were told that you would gain a quick ability to have a good self-denfense repitore from aikido, then you were either wrong or were "misled".

I had much the same reaction as someone else who watched the Krav Maga sequence on Human Weapon.....dang that's aikido. Now I will grant you that aikido does not as a general rule emphasize the atemi, either punching, elbows or kicks that are shown in Krav Maga, but they are there. Its a sometimes unfortunate artifact of inheriting a teaching method from the east, wherein the student is expected to discover some things for themselves.

Well, I hope you find what you are looking for; my guess is that it will have some elements of aikido; they just won't call it that.

L. Camejo
12-31-2007, 08:15 PM
To be honest, it sounds like the OP went to an Aikido dojo and expected to get training that would better be found in a Bouncer training program. I think he should move on and find what will suit him better, but I get this funny feeling that he does not really know what that is (especially after the KM references). It also sounds like he has not been in that many real altercations due to the level of speculation in the original post, another reason why he may not understand Aikido's applicability to his needs.

As far as Bouncing skills and training methods that prepare you for a "real fight" go you should take a read of this book by Peyton Quinn, ex-bouncer - Real Fighting: Adrenaline Stress Conditioning Through Scenario-Based Training (http://www.amazon.com/Real-Fighting-Adrenaline-Conditioning-Scenario-Based/dp/0873648935). Interesting thing in this book is that much of what is taught as principles of dealing with a real fight are taught in any Aikido dojo that has a serious martially-oriented practice.

I dont want those new to aikido to make the same mistake i did, and waste two maybe more years on something for the wrong reasons.This irked me a bit (though I should know better) :) since it paints "Aikido" with a very broad brush and does a tremendous injustice to those dojo who actually teach the art in a manner that makes it physically useful in a real threat environment. Imho if one is learning "aikido is turning your back" then I can see why one is wasting time. "Turning your back" is as far as one can get from practical Aikido.

I hope the OP one day gets enough understanding to find the right method or methods for him.

Gambate.
LC:ai::ki:

asiawide
12-31-2007, 10:26 PM
You're right. It takes too much time to learn aikido. And aikido doesn't have solid teaching method. 'Saw it? Do it!' policy of Aikido put you into 20 yerars techniques trap. And most techniques are designed to be gentle and safe. It could be a weak point.

But it also means you can practice with 100% speed and power without injury. And aikido can be nasty enough. In Japan, there's a speed limit controller for cars, so even if you buy Porsche, you can't exceed the limit. I heard there's workaround for it. Same goes to Aikido, you ca exceed the limit. :)

Anyway good luck!

Karen Wolek
12-31-2007, 10:41 PM
TImho if one is learning "aikido is turning your back" then I can see why one is wasting time. "Turning your back" is as far as one can get from practical Aikido.



If I turn my back, my sensei chokes me. :rolleyes:

Hope you find what you are looking for.

mickeygelum
01-01-2008, 12:31 AM
Just my opinion.

Mickey

http://http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=196566#post196566

roadster
01-01-2008, 05:00 AM
Years back I learned both Krav Maga and Aikido techniques in the police academy and have used them both in the field since then. Having said that, we live in a PC world where going straight for the throat can get you sued for everything you own so if possible I tend to stick to my limited Aikido training.

For those of you that wear a gun on your hip, Aikido will most certainly help you keep it there.

Do whatever you feel you need to do. However, blanket statements based on your own personal experiences with Aikido won't get you a cup of tea and a biscut. :p

Andrew R
01-01-2008, 08:38 AM
Bye.

I bet you're fun at parties.

Daniel Ranger-Holt
01-01-2008, 08:53 AM
Hi everyone

This is something i've been fighting with alot past few weeks, the insecurity and worry that it doesnt work if i find myself in confrontation. Or should i say *my aikido*?


Last night i bought in new years eve at the biggest club in my home town, there were nine fights, five resolved easily, door staff there on time, two were physical attacks toward me one backhand as a short guy was walking away and another was an ashtray attack a swipe holding an ashtray. And my Aikido didn't even cross my mind to use, what i'm trying to say is, surely after two years it should have been natural to do at least something? Instead of the rather unsightly grappling, messy but effective takedowns that naturally spring to use. The AIkido i have been taught and i have been taught by three main instructors at our dojo...who all seem to disagree on certain things (which may have something to do with it i dont know) seems to be uneffective for a job where every night there will potentially be an attack. Erik i dont know how long you've been doing aikido, but say its a year, shouldnt you feel comfortable you could do something? A Thai Boxer whos been attending class three times a week for a year, or a boxer, or a BJJ would be effective...but as Aikidoka most of us after this time are still..."errrr will this work?" which is really really bad if your learning the art purely to defend yourself in a real life situation.

Maybe it's not for you. Maybe it's not what you were looking for to begin with, hence your disappointment. Follow your gut, and you will find your way.

I think that is it, thats what i feel it is. I started AIkido because i wanted to learn self defence for the streets. This is what i was told i would learn at my dojo, and this is what i read online for the most part. But looking back, it was the wrong art for me, because the self defence it teaches you isn't real and i feel for those wishing to become effective in a short time 6 or so months, definitely not.

I can understand your points, but you seem to be contradicting yourself. You say your job does not allow you to use strikes, yet you claim krav maga is better for your job? My training in krav maga was not about restraint, it was about killing people as fast as possible.

It would seem to me that a pure grappling art would be much more useful.

If i look further into Krav Maga and find its about killing people as fast as possible then i will have made another mistake and keep searching. Just at this point it seems like the next natural stop for me. Krav teaches grappling and multiple opponents, where as BJJ is just one opponent. Obviously in a situation with regards to my job i'd need the more than one opponent training. As i have seen so far, no killing, just stopping people fast. If that means hurting them in the process then rather them than me. It sounds cruel but ive seen how cruel/animal life and relentless people can be. I was an office manager before i did doorwork so was pretty much oblivious to how people can be in most violent situations. Im 28 my last fight was when i was about 17. I always had the size for doorwork and took it up, thinking my aikido would suffice as i natrually entered the job. But im finding it wont be near enough. The worst feeling is the feeling of being unsure. At our dojo there is a guy who has been doing boxing just normal boxing for a bit of self confidence, sure its brutal and basic but he said within 5 months he felt confident he could defend himself in a street situation and that was only training once a week. He's looking to cut his akido right down to do more boxing, i feel he will leave as for self defence he is seeing the same as me. A guy who left to do wing chun has never looked back, for the same reasons...but i know little about wing chun.

Some of your post (as Don Hinted at) does not make sense but hey what do you know? No disrespect but you're just a beginner.

Again Good Luck.

William Hazen

P.S. If you're working as a bouncer at a bar Then Aikido actually works GREAT...At least that is my experiance. Restraint, Diplomacy and Martial Awareness are the tools of a good bouncer. Having a Good Left Hook is cool too but destroying unrulely drunks usually leads to to you getting destroyed in return either by his friends or the legal system.

Exactly my point ive been doing aikido for two years, three times a week and in your own words, im "just a beginner" "what do you know" thats not good enough for a martial art in my option. I think i kind of knew all this as i was training maybe a year an a half in or something, but you kind of just carry on because you are with friends, and almost feel rude cross training. Im too nice. And i disagree about Aikido working great as a bouncer, in theory its the best martial art for that kind of job. But the speed people attack you, throw punches and fly at you isn't within Aikidos rulebooks i have found. And it just looks pretty on you tube or when someone is running with a fist extended (not a real punch) but not when the split second of a fist is thrown at your nose

Yeh i have excellent self control though, the one thing i do have. In the four months, ive been slapped, punched, stubbed with a cigerette and not hit back, just got to the floor and restrained. CCTV in my town is everywhere, all over the clubs i work. I'm very careful of course some people i work with have a different approach. But thats up to them to face the consequences. I have nothing to prove with people. I just want my money and to go home!

Daniel,

Neither aikido nor any other style is going to be all things to all people, so I've no issue with what you say there. I'm curious, though, if it was a case of being sold a bill of goods when you joined up, or if you heard what you wanted to hear. Were you actually told that you would be able to quickly learn techniques that you could use to subdue an angry drunk without harm to either one of you?

Hi mary, i was told aikido was a self defence martial art. Purely self defence. I must admit i wasn't told i would learn the techniques quickly. I just assumed within at least a year three times a week training, id be able to confidently deal with any attacks with my aikido, and improve from there. No one said to me though "you will be able to use this very quickly" so my mistake there...as i said i should have as others did, left class within a few weeks or months...but im veeery stubborn and kept going for two more years thinking there must be some kind of light coming here...i didnt find it quick enough. So decided to leave.

That whole thing sounded like planted advertising, with the video add to match.

We should do a reverse one....I was able to lay the smack down with ease. Gators feared my ground techniques. I was a bouncer in war zone (special hand-to-gun unit). but I never felt complete until ....AIKIDO! changed my life forever

No advertising, just saying what i feel. I left a religion once and people said similar things. Its very spooky how we get attatched to something so passionately, we almost make it personal to ourselves. Especially when its a martial art. I used to feel the same when everyone attacked Aikido. Its odd, almost cult ish. Ignore the Krav Maga bits then, and focus on what im saying about the actual Aikido.

After reading this again, I noticed a few more things that bother me about this. SO, I'm going to point them out (slow day here)

The video you post below has the exact same kind of training in it. The exact same kind of techniques. How is the training method different?

If you still only 'feel' you can do something, your training methods are still lacking. I know exactly what I am capable of in any given situation. This is a common problem with the types of training you are seeking out, and why I stopped training krav maga. 'Feeling' is not good enough.

After watching that video, I fail to see how it is any different than the aikido I was taught. Except for they didn't wear gi.

Ok then i should have come to your Dojo Don. The aikido you are beign taught sounds like the kind of thing i am looking for. But because everyone seems to have a different Aikido. Unless you aikido has a specific name...im back to square one.

Id say one month in and feeling i can do something is brilliant for what ten or so classes? aikido im 2 years in and still dont even "feel" like i could do something. Your questions seem more like attacks and i feel ive touched a nerve. Dont take it personal. You're probably much much better at learning Aikido then i was. Im just sayin how i feel about it and why im choosing another art to try.

There is no doubt that if you work a job that requires you to use non-lethal force and in a controlled manner, you need to have concentrated quick training that will give you something to work with. In general, aikido does not provide this path. If you LIKE aikido, and are willing to stick with it long enough you will find that if can be very effective. If you somehow either thought or were told that you would gain a quick ability to have a good self-denfense repitore from aikido, then you were either wrong or were "misled".

I had much the same reaction as someone else who watched the Krav Maga sequence on Human Weapon.....dang that's aikido. Now I will grant you that aikido does not as a general rule emphasize the atemi, either punching, elbows or kicks that are shown in Krav Maga, but they are there. Its a sometimes unfortunate artifact of inheriting a teaching method from the east, wherein the student is expected to discover some things for themselves.

Well, I hope you find what you are looking for; my guess is that it will have some elements of aikido; they just won't call it that.

As i said before, this video does not look at all like the Aikido ive been taught or the aikido ive viewed on you tube. So.... as for krav having elements of aikido i hope it does. Then my two years wont have been wasted. As for sticking with aikido, i do like it, but im not willing to stick with it any longer to make it effective. id say two years is enough time for it to be at least effective. In my opinion. And it hasn't been effective.

To be honest, it sounds like the OP went to an Aikido dojo and expected to get training that would better be found in a Bouncer training program. I think he should move on and find what will suit him better, but I get this funny feeling that he does not really know what that is (especially after the KM references). It also sounds like he has not been in that many real altercations due to the level of speculation in the original post, another reason why he may not understand Aikido's applicability to his needs.

Gambate.
LC:ai::ki:

No i dont really know what will suit me better than aikido at this early self discovery stage, your right Larry. Krav seems like a good choice at the moment. But even that may be wrong for me. After all, i thought Aikido was right for me at one stage. But at the moment it is hitting all the buttons. A year 6 months in i may find that its not for me and move on again cool, i may never get there and just end up with a mess of aquired skills. But im brave enough and honest enough to at least admit Aikido (for me) is not effective and im moving on.

As for not being in real life altercations as i said i have been doing the doors five nights a week for a good few months. I wont say where but its not hard to find out right? Anyone who knows that town/area of the UK will understand. Every night is a real life altercation. Granted not every night someone squares off in front of me and starts karate kicking me, but its near enough every OTHER night. Seriously, real life altercations is my job so maybe you didnt read / missed that i am actually a doorman i dunno. Strange one that.

Touched a nerve again? this is all going horribly wrong.


Do whatever you feel you need to do. However, blanket statements based on your own personal experiences with Aikido won't get you a cup of tea and a biscut. :p

Sorry about the blanket statements but i stress over and over In My Opinion, and My Aikido doesnt work etc etc. I can only say those things so much, you get the point. its from my perspective. Yeah i know i wont get tea and biccies. It's not really nice saying im leaving the art. Almost like im trying to rile people. but this forum above any other forum ive been to has the most mature and honest people so i felt posting something like im leaving the art here would open up interesting debate. And to my suprise. people have actually agreed with me or shared the same feelings. I just imagine had more patience to stick it out. Or have not been in a job or situation to make them sit and think about their own safety.

As i said before, its like the religion thing, being honest about what you do and admitting there are flaws there you try to ignore or block your mind off from asking, can be a bad bad thing. Almost cult-like.

There is an instructor at my dojo who is fantastic and i really admire him. His aikido is fast, swift and i think would be effective in a fair few of the situations i describe. Ive never seen him attacked with anywhere near a real punch etc. But he looks good and his Aikido i think would stand up to brawlers. But he's been doing it for 17 years.

Thanks to those who responded with kind words and support anyway. Sometimes we just need to be honest almost as Kevin Leavitt put it and if its not working, find something that will. Life is too short to spend 5 - 10 years learning a self defence art, when you can learn it in 3-6 months, then improve on whats there. The more i look into this, the more Aikido and the whole thing has really dissapointed me in fact.

But please please no one take anything personally...of course we love our art i understand that. But it is only that...a martial art.

crbateman
01-01-2008, 09:12 AM
I think that is it, thats what i feel it is. I started AIkido because i wanted to learn self defence for the streets. This is what i was told i would learn at my dojo, and this is what i read online for the most part. But looking back, it was the wrong art for me, because the self defence it teaches you isn't real and i feel for those wishing to become effective in a short time 6 or so months, definitely not.I can't agree with this sentiment. If your meaning is that Aikido is not designed primarily as a self-defense system, you could be at least partially right. If you are saying that it takes longer than 6 months to become martially effective, you would definitely be correct. But to say that someone at an accomplished skill level could not defend himself with his Aikido is way off base, IMHO. Mind you, it is just my opinion, but I'm not prepared to hit Hitohiro Saito, or any of a hundred others I could name, in the mouth to test the theory...

Jorge Garcia
01-01-2008, 09:59 AM
After reading this again, I noticed a few more things that bother me about this. SO, I'm going to point them out (slow day here)

The video you post below has the exact same kind of training in it. The exact same kind of techniques. How is the training method different?

If you still only 'feel' you can do something, your training methods are still lacking. I know exactly what I am capable of in any given situation. This is a common problem with the types of training you are seeking out, and why I stopped training krav maga. 'Feeling' is not good enough.

After watching that video, I fail to see how it is any different than the aikido I was taught. Except for they didn't wear gi.

I agree with Don.

That Krav looked like most of the Aikido on You Tube. While Aikido may not be for the original poster, I think that the rare more effective Aikido would work as well as most things but in his case, he sounds super dependent on an art to teach him. He's the one who has to bring the goods to the fight. If he couldn't do it with Aikido, I don't think he'll be able to do it with anything else either. There is no superior martial systems - believing in that is his problem. There are just superior martial artists.

Best,
Jorge

Aikibu
01-01-2008, 11:58 AM
Hi everyone

The AIkido i have been taught and i have been taught by three main instructors at our dojo...who all seem to disagree on certain things (which may have something to do with it i dont know) seems to be uneffective for a job where every night there will potentially be an attack. Erik i dont know how long you've been doing aikido, but say its a year, shouldnt you feel comfortable you could do something? A Thai Boxer whos been attending class three times a week for a year, or a boxer, or a BJJ would be effective...but as Aikidoka most of us after this time are still..."errrr will this work?" which is really really bad if your learning the art purely to defend yourself in a real life situation.

I think that is it, thats what i feel it is. I started AIkido because i wanted to learn self defence for the streets. This is what i was told i would learn at my dojo, and this is what i read online for the most part. But looking back, it was the wrong art for me, because the self defence it teaches you isn't real and i feel for those wishing to become effective in a short time 6 or so months, definitely not.

Exactly my point ive been doing aikido for two years, three times a week and in your own words, im "just a beginner" "what do you know" thats not good enough for a martial art in my option. I think i kind of knew all this as i was training maybe a year an a half in or something, but you kind of just carry on because you are with friends, and almost feel rude cross training. Im too nice. And i disagree about Aikido working great as a bouncer, in theory its the best martial art for that kind of job. But the speed people attack you, throw punches and fly at you isn't within Aikidos rulebooks i have found. And it just looks pretty on you tube or when someone is running with a fist extended (not a real punch) but not when the split second of a fist is thrown at your nose

Yeh i have excellent self control though, the one thing i do have. In the four months, ive been slapped, punched, stubbed with a cigerette and not hit back, just got to the floor and restrained. CCTV in my town is everywhere, all over the clubs i work. I'm very careful of course some people i work with have a different approach. But thats up to them to face the consequences. I have nothing to prove with people. I just want my money and to go home!

Thanks to those who responded with kind words and support anyway. Sometimes we just need to be honest almost as Kevin Leavitt put it and if its not working, find something that will. Life is too short to spend 5 - 10 years learning a self defence art, when you can learn it in 3-6 months, then improve on whats there. The more i look into this, the more Aikido and the whole thing has really dissapointed me in fact.

But please please no one take anything personally...of course we love our art i understand that. But it is only that...a martial art.

Hey Dan I meant no disrespect in my post about you being a beginner...But to your points about doing something to "defend" yourself by going to class just three times a week in any art in the hopes of becoming effective at self defense I suggest you reevaluate your thinking.

Being a Bouncer... Bodyguard... Law Enforcement... or a Member of the Armed Forces means training every day. It means daily Physical Conditioning... Martial Arts... Situational (aka Martial) Awareness...and Task Specfic Training...

That is if you value your life and well being...There are Big Musclebound Dudes with Street Sense who can get away with not training everyday because they live the lifestyle to begin with and then there are guys like you who need to learn how to defend themselves...

Second...Your Aikido Dojo is screwed up... Sounds more like a McDojo to me... Meaning the "Yudansha" there have diluted the Martial Side of Aikido to the point that it is useless. No worries Dan. I hear you...Most Aikidoka can't fight thier way out of a wet paperbag when they absoulutely need to to do it. I personally think it's a shame they take raw beginners like you off the street and infuse them with all the bad habits and poor Aikido they know and fool them into thinking they have been trained.

No worries Dan... You're on the right track. You intuitively know your Sensei's teachings are useless. O'Sensei the founder of Aikido himself warned against depending too much on instruction and "dojo" time.

My teacher Micheal Fowler Sensei practices everyday His teachers Shoji Nishio Shihan (when he was alive) and Koji Yoshida Shihan practice everyday. I practice everyday and put my practice up against other Martial Artists when I can to learn from them and help make my practice better. No matter what Dojo you end up walking to into this is the spirit you want to look for in your teachers and in yourself. Practice is serious business and your life depends on it

One last hint: When I started my Aikido Journey almost 20 years ago After years in other Martial Arts I used only one criteria that my first Karate Sensei (That man is most arguably the most famous Karatedoka in the USA and those who trained at his Dojo on Artesia Blvd know who I am about about :D ) gave me about evaluating Dojo's. "Can the Head Instructor kick my ass." LOL

Again Dan Best of Luck to you.

William Hazen

Aristeia
01-01-2008, 12:08 PM
Hi everyone hi



I think that is it, thats what i feel it is. I started AIkido because i wanted to learn self defence for the streets. This is what i was told i would learn at my dojo,

This is one of my biggest beefs with Aikido. And I think it's a fantastic art. But it's not an art that is always honest with people. Sure it teaches effective self defence for the streets in that there are people out there that have used it for just that. But if someone comes in saying that's what they're looking for - there's a bunch of caveats that person should be given in my opinion. But generally they're not. People love Aikido so much they have convinced themselves it's "all anyone needs" or "the most sophisticated art" etc. So rather than say "will it will give you some tools, but you'll need to allow a bunch of time, or train in a different way" they say "sure, I knew this guy once..."

See the thread on "exaggeration in Aikido" for some lively discussion on this one.



If i look further into Krav Maga and find its about killing people as fast as possible then i will have made another mistake and keep searching. Just at this point it seems like the next natural stop for me. Krav teaches grappling and multiple opponents, where as BJJ is just one opponent.

Of course Aikido is about multiple opponents as well. In other words, just because it says it on the brochure doesn't mean you'll be able to do it in reality. I always advise people to be cautious about choosing a style based on claims to protect vs multples - because I think none of them really do it in practice - it's just too big an ask to do reliably. The closest I've seen I think would be some of the concepts from Aikido (and if you read my history you'll see I'm *not* one of those who blindly tout Aikido as the ultimate art)



Exactly my point ive been doing aikido for two years, three times a week and in your own words, im "just a beginner" "what do you know" thats not good enough for a martial art in my option. I think i kind of knew all this as i was training maybe a year an a half in or something, but you kind of just carry on because you are with friends, and almost feel rude cross training. Im too nice.


I think cross training can go a long way to functionalising Aikido. People often mention that O'sensei's senior students were all highly ranked in other arts and more and more I'm thinking cross training enables Aikido. So rather than chucking it in it might be interesting to experiment with some cross training in a 'live" art (boxing, werestling, judo, BJJ, Muay Thai etc) and seeing how that informs your Aikido training. if your investment in Aikido is valuable but just needs something extra to activate it, it would be a shame to waste it.


And i disagree about Aikido working great as a bouncer, Hmm...if your experience is different to someone elses in this regard, what can we take from that.

in theory its the best martial art for that kind of job. But the speed people attack you, throw punches and fly at you isn't within Aikidos rulebooks i have found. And it just looks pretty on you tube or when someone is running with a fist extended (not a real punch) but not when the split second of a fist is thrown at your nose

Agreed. I think there are some issues with training methodology. One of those issues is that the methodology does differ from dojo to dojo, so it might be worth looking round. Having said that there is a lot of "at my school we train realistically talk" online - iow you hear a bunch about people's different training method but every clip and dojo you see starts to look similar.

I think there are some exciting applications of Aikido from some of the structure based flinch defence that is around now - like crazy monkey boxing. The question is how many Aikido schools are in a position to start experimenting with this. Experimentation has never been a strong point of traditional martial arts.



No advertising, just saying what i feel. I left a religion once and people said similar things. Its very spooky how we get attatched to something so passionately, we almost make it personal to ourselves. Especially when its a martial art. I used to feel the same when everyone attacked Aikido. Its odd, almost cult ish.

I will agree with that. Not everyone and not all the time, but there are cultish elements I think in most traditional martial arts.

Id say one month in and feeling i can do something is brilliant for what ten or so classes? aikido im 2 years in and still dont even "feel" like i could do something.

This is why I would prefer live arts for real world defence. It's not left up to how you "feel" only to realise it doesn't work that way when you come to "do". Train something that gives you the opportunity to practice regularly vs fully resisting partners - i.e. spar. Don't buy into that "sport styles aren't good for real fighting" stuff - it's malarky. Evidence has shown time and again, from the judo v jujitsu competition of Kano's time to the first UFC in 93 - sporting styles make better fighters quicker. And in your particular case you shouldn't even be worried about the "but they have rules" objections, as you are working in an environment with it's own rules anyway. Many of which will be similar (you won't want to be dropping people on their head or crushing their windpipe)


As i said before, this video does not look at all like the Aikido ive been taught or the aikido ive viewed on you tube. So.... as for krav having elements of aikido i hope it does. Then my two years wont have been wasted. As for sticking with aikido, i do like it, but im not willing to stick with it any longer to make it effective. id say two years is enough time for it to be at least effective. In my opinion. And it hasn't been effective.

I train BJJ now. I find Aikido response come out natrually in BJJ sparring (so under stress and pressure) so it can happen. But I trained Aikido for more than 2 years, so therein lies the problem. That's why I'm interested in taking aikido and applying from a starting point of the startle reflex Because there's alot of folk like you who when a punch is thrown and they instinctively cover up rather than enter deeply are thinking "well aikido didn't come out" I suspect there's alot of opportunity to apply aikido from your initial reaction, it's just that your initial reaction is likely to be so different from what you feel it should be (based on what is done in the dojo) that you figure Aikido hasn't "stuck". But what if we're only talking about one split second being the problem. What if you can flinch, cover up, and then start to lead, blend, throw, control. It's a possiblity.


As i said before, its like the religion thing, being honest about what you do and admitting there are flaws there you try to ignore or block your mind off from asking, can be a bad bad thing. Almost cult-like.


*nods* that is a problem in some cases. I"ve said before (and been lambasted for it) that it's Aikido's general reisitance to change of trainng and critical thinking, and lack of honesty as to what it is and is not good for which I fear will put it on the endangered arts list over the next 10-20 years



But please please no one take anything personally...of course we love our art i understand that. But it is only that...a martial art.Ah yes but be aware that although to you it is "only" a martial art others are saying "it's my martial art". In otherwords you have walked into Aikido to pick up some tools to to a job. So it's hard to see why people get so connected to a place to get tools. For most others on the forum, myself included "only a martial art" sounds a bit contradictory....:-)

Jorge Garcia
01-01-2008, 12:16 PM
Hi everyone

Last night i bought in new years eve at the biggest club in my home town, there were nine fights, five resolved easily, door staff there on time, two were physical attacks toward me one backhand as a short guy was walking away and another was an ashtray attack a swipe holding an ashtray. And my Aikido didn't even cross my mind to use, what i'm trying to say is, surely after two years it should have been natural to do at least something? Instead of the rather unsightly grappling, messy but effective takedowns that naturally spring to use. The AIkido i have been taught and i have been taught by three main instructors at our dojo...who all seem to disagree on certain things (which may have something to do with it i dont know) seems to be uneffective for a job where every night there will potentially be an attack. Erik i dont know how long you've been doing aikido, but say its a year, shouldnt you feel comfortable you could do something? A Thai Boxer whos been attending class three times a week for a year, or a boxer, or a BJJ would be effective...but as Aikidoka most of us after this time are still..."errrr will this work?" which is really really bad if your learning the art purely to defend yourself in a real life situation.

I think that is it, thats what i feel it is. I started AIkido because i wanted to learn self defence for the streets. This is what i was told i would learn at my dojo, and this is what i read online for the most part. But looking back, it was the wrong art for me, because the self defence it teaches you isn't real and i feel for those wishing to become effective in a short time 6 or so months, definitely not.

If i look further into Krav Maga and find its about killing people as fast as possible then i will have made another mistake and keep searching. Just at this point it seems like the next natural stop for me. Krav teaches grappling and multiple opponents, where as BJJ is just one opponent. Obviously in a situation with regards to my job i'd need the more than one opponent training. As i have seen so far, no killing, just stopping people fast. If that means hurting them in the process then rather them than me. It sounds cruel but ive seen how cruel/animal life and relentless people can be. I was an office manager before i did doorwork so was pretty much oblivious to how people can be in most violent situations. Im 28 my last fight was when i was about 17. I always had the size for doorwork and took it up, thinking my aikido would suffice as i natrually entered the job. But im finding it wont be near enough. The worst feeling is the feeling of being unsure. At our dojo there is a guy who has been doing boxing just normal boxing for a bit of self confidence, sure its brutal and basic but he said within 5 months he felt confident he could defend himself in a street situation and that was only training once a week. He's looking to cut his akido right down to do more boxing, i feel he will leave as for self defence he is seeing the same as me. A guy who left to do wing chun has never looked back, for the same reasons...but i know little about wing chun.

Exactly my point ive been doing aikido for two years, three times a week and in your own words, im "just a beginner" "what do you know" thats not good enough for a martial art in my option. I think i kind of knew all this as i was training maybe a year an a half in or something, but you kind of just carry on because you are with friends, and almost feel rude cross training. Im too nice. And i disagree about Aikido working great as a bouncer, in theory its the best martial art for that kind of job. But the speed people attack you, throw punches and fly at you isn't within Aikidos rulebooks i have found. And it just looks pretty on you tube or when someone is running with a fist extended (not a real punch) but not when the split second of a fist is thrown at your nose

Yeh i have excellent self control though, the one thing i do have. In the four months, ive been slapped, punched, stubbed with a cigerette and not hit back, just got to the floor and restrained. CCTV in my town is everywhere, all over the clubs i work. I'm very careful of course some people i work with have a different approach. But thats up to them to face the consequences. I have nothing to prove with people. I just want my money and to go home!

Hi mary, i was told aikido was a self defence martial art. Purely self defence. I must admit i wasn't told i would learn the techniques quickly. I just assumed within at least a year three times a week training, id be able to confidently deal with any attacks with my aikido, and improve from there. No one said to me though "you will be able to use this very quickly" so my mistake there...as i said i should have as others did, left class within a few weeks or months...but im veeery stubborn and kept going for two more years thinking there must be some kind of light coming here...i didnt find it quick enough. So decided to leave.

No advertising, just saying what i feel. I left a religion once and people said similar things. Its very spooky how we get attatched to something so passionately, we almost make it personal to ourselves. Especially when its a martial art. I used to feel the same when everyone attacked Aikido. Its odd, almost cult ish. Ignore the Krav Maga bits then, and focus on what im saying about the actual Aikido.

Ok then i should have come to your Dojo Don. The aikido you are beign taught sounds like the kind of thing i am looking for. But because everyone seems to have a different Aikido. Unless you aikido has a specific name...im back to square one.

Id say one month in and feeling i can do something is brilliant for what ten or so classes? aikido im 2 years in and still dont even "feel" like i could do something. Your questions seem more like attacks and i feel ive touched a nerve. Dont take it personal. You're probably much much better at learning Aikido then i was. Im just sayin how i feel about it and why im choosing another art to try.

As i said before, this video does not look at all like the Aikido ive been taught or the aikido ive viewed on you tube. So.... as for krav having elements of aikido i hope it does. Then my two years wont have been wasted. As for sticking with aikido, i do like it, but im not willing to stick with it any longer to make it effective. id say two years is enough time for it to be at least effective. In my opinion. And it hasn't been effective.

No i dont really know what will suit me better than aikido at this early self discovery stage, your right Larry. Krav seems like a good choice at the moment. But even that may be wrong for me. After all, i thought Aikido was right for me at one stage. But at the moment it is hitting all the buttons. A year 6 months in i may find that its not for me and move on again cool, i may never get there and just end up with a mess of aquired skills. But im brave enough and honest enough to at least admit Aikido (for me) is not effective and im moving on.

As for not being in real life altercations as i said i have been doing the doors five nights a week for a good few months. I wont say where but its not hard to find out right? Anyone who knows that town/area of the UK will understand. Every night is a real life altercation. Granted not every night someone squares off in front of me and starts karate kicking me, but its near enough every OTHER night. Seriously, real life altercations is my job so maybe you didnt read / missed that i am actually a doorman i dunno. Strange one that.

Touched a nerve again? this is all going horribly wrong.

Sorry about the blanket statements but i stress over and over In My Opinion, and My Aikido doesnt work etc etc. I can only say those things so much, you get the point. its from my perspective. Yeah i know i wont get tea and biccies. It's not really nice saying im leaving the art. Almost like im trying to rile people. but this forum above any other forum ive been to has the most mature and honest people so i felt posting something like im leaving the art here would open up interesting debate. And to my suprise. people have actually agreed with me or shared the same feelings. I just imagine had more patience to stick it out. Or have not been in a job or situation to make them sit and think about their own safety.

As i said before, its like the religion thing, being honest about what you do and admitting there are flaws there you try to ignore or block your mind off from asking, can be a bad bad thing. Almost cult-like.

There is an instructor at my dojo who is fantastic and i really admire him. His aikido is fast, swift and i think would be effective in a fair few of the situations i describe. Ive never seen him attacked with anywhere near a real punch etc. But he looks good and his Aikido i think would stand up to brawlers. But he's been doing it for 17 years.

Thanks to those who responded with kind words and support anyway. Sometimes we just need to be honest almost as Kevin Leavitt put it and if its not working, find something that will. Life is too short to spend 5 - 10 years learning a self defence art, when you can learn it in 3-6 months, then improve on whats there. The more i look into this, the more Aikido and the whole thing has really dissapointed me in fact.

But please please no one take anything personally...of course we love our art i understand that. But it is only that...a martial art.

I have one comment that may cover most of the things said here. It comes from my Shihan, who is an 8th dan and has practiced for more than 50 years. He said that O Sensei didn't create Aikido for ordinary people originally. He said that Aikido isn't an art that people coming off the street can walk in and understand. He said that a budo master can understand this art immediately but an ordinary person will have to study for many years before he can even begin to understand it. My teacher went on to explain budo before O Sensei and what O Sensei did that impressed budo masters that saw Aikido for the first time. That is a for a different post. I just think that as I read aikiweb with good people that have self defense concerns, that these words keep coming to my mind. They are from article #2 at
http://www.shudokanaikido.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=11

"It is important to ask oneself "What is Aikido?" and develop one's own perspective. If you choose not to fight, then why don't you do that? Searching for ultimate answers like that is a necessity in doing Aikido. Aikido is not Kumiuchi (traditional martial techniques for fighting). If Aikido were like techniques for fighting, the way of practice itself would be totally different. But Aikido practice consists of ways to develop ourselves and each other. Of course, it is not saying that being weak is acceptable — through our experience of strength we are not tempted to fight. A person who has true strength does not fight."

I still think Aikido is suitable for your job but I also think that you lack a basic understanding of what most martial arts are all about. If I were you, I would go study MMA (I'm serious) but even there, you are going to find out why fighting isn't an answer and you may find that out in the emergency room at a hospital. I would switch jobs and maybe read some books on budo like Niklaus Suino's, Budo Mind and Body or Tevor Leggett's, Spirit of Budo. It will give some meaning to your practice and you might enjoy things more and the need to fight at a door can be put on the back burner.
best,
Jorge

Aristeia
01-01-2008, 12:16 PM
I agree with Don.

That Krav looked like most of the Aikido on You Tube. Just to address this because I'm sure it's confusing the original poster. The similarities are on the entries. It's moving of the line to deliver a technique - in this case the technique may be a kick to the sternum rather than an irimi nage - but the concept is similar. The similarities to a 10 year practitioner of Aikido make it look very similar, but to a 2 year practitioner they are likely looking at the end result and saying "but there's not shiho nage, how can you say it's similar..."

It's also similar because it has alot of uke throwing an attack and then waiting for nage to do their turn as part of the training method.

Daniel I suspect that one of the reasons you say aikido isn't working is because when you are in an altercation you don't have the Aikido IA's (immediate actions - entering, stepping off line etc) manifesting themsevles. Given it is those same IA's that people are noticing as being similar in Krav, I'd doubt it will serve you much better...

Aristeia
01-01-2008, 12:18 PM
Second...Your Aikido Dojo is screwed up... Sounds more like a McDojo to me... I'd be interested to hear what you base this on? We've seen no footage, not even really discussed the training at Daniel's dojo, what makes you so sure it's different to 90% of the other Aikido dojos?

Kevin Leavitt
01-01-2008, 12:23 PM
Michael Fooks wrote:

This is one of my biggest beefs with Aikido. And I think it's a fantastic art. But it's not an art that is always honest with people. Sure it teaches effective self defence for the streets in that there are people out there that have used it for just that. But if someone comes in saying that's what they're looking for - there's a bunch of caveats that person should be given in my opinion. But generally they're not.

Not sure what people in other dojo are told or not told as the case may be.

I will tell you the moment I set foot in Saotome Sensei's dojo in Wash DC/Takoma Park MD, it was very clear. In fact there is a great big sign that outlines the rules, etiquette, and the expectations that one can expect of aikido.

In addition, here is an excerpt from the ASU handbook that is given pretty much the very first day.

"Aikido training is to challenge yourself, not the other. You will develop confidence by facing your fears, and negative fighting spirit will become creative fighting spirit. The stress and pressure of serious Aikido training brings this spirit to the surface, exposing it so that it can be examined and refined in a controlled atmosphere of respect and mutual study. Discovering your physical limitations will cause you to reflect on the deepest meanings of harmony and conflict, and to strive for a level of consciousness above the selfish ego, closer to a universal consciousness. "

So to me it was clear...at least from the dojo's perspective.

What was not so clear was my own projections, persceptions, and expectations of aikido. Like many, I tried to make the practice into something that it was not.

Funny how we can be told things, shown things, etc....but we filter out things and only hear or see what we want to!

Not sure if this is true of every dojo, and person...but I think it happens more oft than not!

Kevin Leavitt
01-01-2008, 12:42 PM
If you are really interested at getting to the core of things, Aikido, BJJ, Krav Maga...no matter...i'd take a look at some of Tony Blauer's stuff. We are using it in the Army to a degree (coupled with other methodologies of training).

Worth watching this one, and a few others if you are interested in true core of reality, and developing good, sound, basic instincts that are tactical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk_Ai8qT2s4

Aristeia
01-01-2008, 02:04 PM
cheers for that Kevin. I'm sorry to say in my experience alot of dojos aren't as explicit as Saotome's. And even when they are the bigger issue is how do they respond to the question "hey all that self development stuff is great but will it enable me to defend myself".

Re Tony Blauer - read alot about him when he was all over black belt magazine and similar 10-15 years ago and didn't much care for him. Mainly that was based on his excessive use of jargon and acronyms which struck me as an attempt to make the simple sound complex and mystical. Having watched that and other videos linked to it, I'm pretty impressed. It meshes with what I've been thinking as a result of conversations with other coaches and other readings - so thanks for posting it - good stuff!

charyuop
01-01-2008, 02:54 PM
The choice is yours and if you feel Aikido is not the right choice for you, well I hope you will find the right path that will give you a full satisfaction.

But I want to give you a suggestion, watch out for what you look at on Youtube. I am sure in these 2 years of Aikido you must have read on forums people criticizing Aikido as Martial Art. Demo video are made to attract people and that is not only true for Aikido, that is true for other Martial Arts too. I will give you a little example with the video you posted here...

Many people criticize Aikido for its Randori not being something that can be used in the street (and in a certain degree I agree, no Martial Art in my opinion can keep you alive Vs 3 people together if they well trained). Look at your Krav Maga video, first scene is Vs 3 and just like in many Aikido Demo there is always 1 Uke waiting. Look at the first guy hit by the Krav Maga guy, goes down nice, waits for next hit and goes down again even more. Doesn't that remind a nice video of Aikido where people say Uke go down on their own?
Second, in a good commercial for Krav Maga what best than destroying other Martial Arts? Aikidoka for 2 years I guess you can do a Kotegaeshi. Look at the Kotegaeshi made in that video. Nage gives his back to Uke even before the punch "leaves the base" which will help to the eye of a half experienced MAist to make it appear of poor quality and very not so effective.

If you think Krav Maga is what is right for you I hope you will try it and stick with it for the rest of your life, hoping that Krav is what really will help you for your job. But please practice it before you decide it is right for you just because of a video.
Demo video, of any Martial Art, are made to deliver the principle behind the Art, not to show you what the Art is in its entire.

Aikibu
01-01-2008, 03:10 PM
I'd be interested to hear what you base this on? We've seen no footage, not even really discussed the training at Daniel's dojo, what makes you so sure it's different to 90% of the other Aikido dojos?

I am basing my comment completely on Dan's description nothing more... and of course... we both could be wrong. :D

Now...90% of other Dojo's is also an interesting number and the survey you base this statistic on is....Where?

Gosh Sensei Fooks... You're not suggesting that Aikido is not technically sound as a Martial Art or a system of "Self Defense" are you?

Respectfully,
William Hazen

Jeff Sodeman
01-01-2008, 03:35 PM
Just throwing my 2 cents out.

First, as others have mentioned I also don't think Aikido is for everyone.

That said, I'd hate anyone to judge a martial art, not matter what variety, by their experience under one teacher. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't still be doing Aikido if I'd started in a lot of the dojos out there. I got lucky and as much as I've learned from my teacher, seeing other teachers regulary opens my mind to whole new aspects of Aikido.

People have so many criticisms about Aikido, the way it's taught and practiced, things that aren't included. To most of those I say that they're in the wrong dojo.

I can't argue that Aikido doesn't take time to learn. It's a "-do", a way, and it's subtle on a level that you don't even realized without Years (with a big Y) of practice.

When people come into my dojo and ask me if Aikido works I tell them "I know it works". Why? Because I've used it in fights and it worked so well that I ended up frustrated at not making my attackers pay in pain for what they tried to do (which was an incredible personal lesson). [on a side note: one perk to using aikido was that the police didn't have any problem deciding which person went to jail and which got to go home]

So maybe Aikido is not for you, but after investing two years in something I'd take a look around a bit before leaving Aikido all together to see if maybe you're just not in the right school for your needs.

Aristeia
01-01-2008, 03:58 PM
I am basing my comment completely on Dan's description nothing more... and of course... we both could be wrong. :D

Now...90% of other Dojo's is also an interesting number and the survey you base this statistic on is....Where?

Gosh Sensei Fooks... You're not suggesting that Aikido is not technically sound as a Martial Art or a system of "Self Defense" are you?

Respectfully,
William HazenMy point was very simple. Dan hasn't talked at all as far as I can see about how Aikido is trained in his club. All he's said is that he hasn't found it useful for him. His dojo is also public record as it's part of his profile.

So what you've done is effectively publically called the Luton Aikido Club a mcdojo where the senior grades are diluting the art based on the fact one particular student, with no more than 2 years training hasn't been using it in bouncing work.

If it were me I would want more evidence before pointing a finger at a particular school and calling it McDojo....

Aikibu
01-01-2008, 04:49 PM
My point was very simple. Dan hasn't talked at all as far as I can see about how Aikido is trained in his club. All he's said is that he hasn't found it useful for him. His dojo is also public record as it's part of his profile.

So what you've done is effectively publically called the Luton Aikido Club a mcdojo where the senior grades are diluting the art based on the fact one particular student, with no more than 2 years training hasn't been using it in bouncing work.

If it were me I would want more evidence before pointing a finger at a particular school and calling it McDojo....

Please carefully reread my post and Dan's and pay particular attention to the phrase "sounds like." Niether Dan or I mentioned the Dojo by name. I also "publically stated" that I might be wrong.

If you feel the need to get all hot and bothered over that Well then... Remind me to limit the number of drinks I buy you at the pub. It sounds like you may be the kind of bloke that attracts all sorts of undue attention to yourself.

Now back to your 90% comment... Unless you want to continue to obfuscate it with another attempt to raise additional straw man arguments.

Respectfully,

William Hazen

Kevin Leavitt
01-01-2008, 04:57 PM
cheers for that Kevin. I'm sorry to say in my experience alot of dojos aren't as explicit as Saotome's. And even when they are the bigger issue is how do they respond to the question "hey all that self development stuff is great but will it enable me to defend myself".

Re Tony Blauer - read alot about him when he was all over black belt magazine and similar 10-15 years ago and didn't much care for him. Mainly that was based on his excessive use of jargon and acronyms which struck me as an attempt to make the simple sound complex and mystical. Having watched that and other videos linked to it, I'm pretty impressed. It meshes with what I've been thinking as a result of conversations with other coaches and other readings - so thanks for posting it - good stuff!

Obviously I can't speak for the aiki community on how to answer the "big question" that comes up, but I usually start by asking more questions of them rather than answering it.

Questions like, "what do you see is your major risk?" "give me an example of what you are fearing?" "what do you think the odds are of this happening?" "What constraints and limitations do you see in the environment"? all those type of questions.

Usually you find that people have not really thought it through very well, and it is the fear of the "unknown" and vaque "I am in a dark alley with no way out, three guys attacking me, and there is no weapons, or any other thing laying around!"

Anyway, you and I have discussed this in that "other thread" many times! :) Well worth a read for those that have not read it. (Does aikido does not work in a real fight.)

Tony Blauer. I was not exposed to him 15 years ago, so I cannot say how he was back then. However, we have come a long way in our understanding as a collective community on things martial haven't we! Maybe it took a while to develop his delivery!

DonMagee
01-01-2008, 05:23 PM
Hi everyone

Last night i bought in new years eve at the biggest club in my home town, there were nine fights, five resolved easily, door staff there on time, two were physical attacks toward me one backhand as a short guy was walking away and another was an ashtray attack a swipe holding an ashtray. And my Aikido didn't even cross my mind to use, what i'm trying to say is, surely after two years it should have been natural to do at least something? Instead of the rather unsightly grappling, messy but effective takedowns that naturally spring to use.


The thing is, actual combat will always look messy and ill-preformed. No matter what you train and how much you train. This was a point I was trying to make, but forgot to.


The AIkido i have been taught and i have been taught by three main instructors at our dojo...who all seem to disagree on certain things (which may have something to do with it i dont know) seems to be uneffective for a job where every night there will potentially be an attack. Erik i dont know how long you've been doing aikido, but say its a year, shouldnt you feel comfortable you could do something? A Thai Boxer whos been attending class three times a week for a year, or a boxer, or a BJJ would be effective...but as Aikidoka most of us after this time are still..."errrr will this work?" which is really really bad if your learning the art purely to defend yourself in a real life situation.
This was something I was trying to get at with my last post. I'll talk about it in a bit.

I think that is it, thats what i feel it is. I started AIkido because i wanted to learn self defence for the streets. This is what i was told i would learn at my dojo, and this is what i read online for the most part. But looking back, it was the wrong art for me, because the self defence it teaches you isn't real and i feel for those wishing to become effective in a short time 6 or so months, definitely not.

Effective is a tricky word. Effective how? I train to be effective against highly trained grappler in a sport competiton. I could say that would make krav maga 100% ineffective. The street really isn't a well defined goal. However, I can totally understand your points on leaving aikido.


If i look further into Krav Maga and find its about killing people as fast as possible then i will have made another mistake and keep searching.
I'm sure you will find this to be the goal. Krav was designed for military use. But never look at it as a mistake, only a stop on the path.


Just at this point it seems like the next natural stop for me. Krav teaches grappling and multiple opponents, where as BJJ is just one opponent. Obviously in a situation with regards to my job i'd need the more than one opponent training.

I'm not a big fan of the whole, we teach multiples training. I have not found any training I've found suitable for this goal. More on that later.

Ok then i should have come to your Dojo Don. The aikido you are beign taught sounds like the kind of thing i am looking for. But because everyone seems to have a different Aikido. Unless you aikido has a specific name...im back to square one.

You might be suprised to know that I do not training aikido any longer. I train judo, bjj, and mauy thai. Which of course leads me to my point I have been talking about making.


Id say one month in and feeling i can do something is brilliant for what ten or so classes? aikido im 2 years in and still dont even "feel" like i could do something. Your questions seem more like attacks and i feel ive touched a nerve. Dont take it personal. You're probably much much better at learning Aikido then i was. Im just sayin how i feel about it and why im choosing another art to try.

Sorry if you think I am attacking you. But in fact, I'm just using you to spout my propaganda :-)

My point is, that training methods define how useful something is. And that the training methods being shown in that video are no different that 100% of the aikido out there.

In fact, I find those training methods lacking, because they rarely included full on sparing. The reason I said that I know what I can do, is because I actually do it on a nightly basis. I know when i'm out classed, what I can do in a given situation. Sparing as given this to me, so has competition. I can almost look at a person now and size up how they will be in a fight.

So maybe what you are looking for is what you will not find in krav maga. I know I did not find it there. I found more of the same, static repetition without any sparing. Sure it was faster and we hit each other hard, but we were not alive in our practice. It sounds like you know what you want out of your practice, but not how to judge what you are getting out of your practice. I suggest reading aliveness101.blogspot.com or looking up matt thornton on google video or youtube.

Here's a few links to save you time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScOPEO31vmI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_T0WLoI6pk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fUZ8DmmWC0

He changed my outlook on what I was doing and allowed me to evaluate (and actually find a method for evaluating) my training. Maybe it will help you. The reason why I am critical about krav is because all the krav I have seen is no different then all the aikido I've seen. And I of course find a problem with aikido training. I simply think you are switching one training method, for the exact same training method.



There is an instructor at my dojo who is fantastic and i really admire him. His aikido is fast, swift and i think would be effective in a fair few of the situations i describe. Ive never seen him attacked with anywhere near a real punch etc. But he looks good and his Aikido i think would stand up to brawlers. But he's been doing it for 17 years.

Thanks to those who responded with kind words and support anyway. Sometimes we just need to be honest almost as Kevin Leavitt put it and if its not working, find something that will. Life is too short to spend 5 - 10 years learning a self defence art, when you can learn it in 3-6 months, then improve on whats there. The more i look into this, the more Aikido and the whole thing has really dissapointed me in fact.

But please please no one take anything personally...of course we love our art i understand that. But it is only that...a martial art.

My only advice is to take the advice of those who have been down the path and know what is ahead.

Kevin Leavitt
01-01-2008, 06:43 PM
Don wrote:

He changed my outlook on what I was doing and allowed me to evaluate (and actually find a method for evaluating) my training. Maybe it will help you. The reason why I am critical about krav is because all the krav I have seen is no different then all the aikido I've seen. And I of course find a problem with aikido training. I simply think you are switching one training method, for the exact same training method

I was thinking of providing the same thing on aliveness. Tony Blauer, Matt Thornton...all along the same vein. Matt does a good job of explaining the issue, although I don't think he has the corner on the market nor is he 100% correct, however...it is correct that aliveness needs to be included, and the examples he shows are good ones in the first video.

Looking at the video on Krav, I thought the exact same thing as you Don. "trading one dead form for another". At least at looking at the youtube footage. I saw no aliveness in that video what-so-ever.

That is not to say the Krav is wrong, or not useful....just that, as one poster already pointed out, don't rely on video to make your decisions.

I have worked with some Israeli military when I was in Germany, and what they do is direct and effective for sure. However, I did not find it any better or worse than anything anyone else was doing.

It also highly depends on the instructor to.

Anyway...all good advice to consider.

DonMagee
01-01-2008, 07:50 PM
Well, from what I've seen, krav trained by the military is done in a fairly good manner. Krav trained by us normal folks can be trained well, or trained like crap. It all depends on the school. This is one of the things that always gets me. Sport based martial arts are rarely as hit and miss as rbsd arts. They (sport based) has a well defined goal (to be good at the sport) while training skills that lend themselves to self defense. But rbsd arts tend to be based a lot of speculation (in the private sector) without well defined goals. This can lead to great training, or very poor training.

Buyer beware.

Kevin Leavitt
01-01-2008, 08:23 PM
I agree Don, I think that is because it is hard to define (for civilians) what it is that you would pay money month after month and year after year to sustain a practice based on RBSD!

So you end up with a bunch of "options", kata, techniques that you have to learn and memorize that are progressive in nature and allow you to move up in rank.

Not knocking RBSD training, I do it myself from time to time, but I think it needs to be based on a good foundation dealing with position, balance, and center...core practices.

Hence why so many of us are pro BJJ, Judo, and other grappling sports.

I personally like the "inside/out" approach. That is, you learn to first literally CRAWL and fight from your core on the ground, which teaches you much about center, strength...where and how things work (or don't), then as you get comfortable there, you can progress to further and further distances, weapons and so forth.

This is the exact appproach we are using today in the Army.

This is not the only way...but I like it and it has done good by me so far.

RBSD, or scenario based training is very simple and can really be learned as simple as Tony Blauer puts it...that is why I like his approach to training. If I was spending my hard earned dollars for "down and dirty, i'd spent the couple of thousand that it takes to go through his training and call it a day! or a year for that matter!

Ironically what you will find though is that your base practice comes back to things like judo, greco-roman, boxing, aikido, tai chi, bjj...all things that work on developing core abilities.

How well these arts work for doing that depends on the teacher, I have seen good teachers in all of them (and bad).

CarlRylander
01-02-2008, 08:43 AM
I still don't practice Aikido yet,(guess what, I'm leaving it till I'm 41!)
but I can see what you're getting at.

You might need to use what you've learned one day, though, in your job. You might meet someone who is so dangerous in reputation that it would be unwise to hurt him badly. Then you would use Aikido.

I'm going to mix it in with a bit of Judo,Hapkido and boxing when I do it.

Whenever that is.

Will Prusner
01-02-2008, 09:16 AM
Seems to me that effectiveness has more to do with the martial artist, and less with the martial art. Aikido is just another great tool. A hammer sucks at driving screws, but you can't beat it for pounding nails (...except for a nail gun...no, wait, forget I said that, i don't want to go there:D ).

James Davis
01-02-2008, 10:10 AM
In my humble opinion, aikido is meant for dealing with people that we don't want to hurt. It's great for dealing with Grandpa when he's off his meds and gets violent. It's great for dealing with Uncle Larry when he's drunk. It's great for dealing with a sixteen year old kid who hasn't seen enough injury and death to know how stupid his actions are. With enough practice, aikido gets both parties home alive without injury.

In my albeit limited experience, aikido sensei ask us not to do everything we've been doing all our lives. I knew how to slap the dogs**t out of somebody long before my first tae kwon do class, but I had to work really hard for a long time to learn how to enter without fear.

mathewjgano
01-02-2008, 10:54 AM
In my humble opinion, aikido is meant for dealing with people that we don't want to hurt. It's great for dealing with Grandpa when he's off his meds and gets violent. It's great for dealing with Uncle Larry when he's drunk. It's great for dealing with a sixteen year old kid who hasn't seen enough injury and death to know how stupid his actions are. With enough practice, aikido gets both parties home alive without injury.

In my albeit limited experience, aikido sensei ask us not to do everything we've been doing all our lives. I knew how to slap the dogs**t out of somebody long before my first tae kwon do class, but I had to work really hard for a long time to learn how to enter without fear.

Well said. While I understand the idea of learning how to impose control on people by learning proper striking form or how to deal with a tight-muscled attacker (ie-compared with the often ultra relaxed attacks we often see in Aikido), my experience is that it's not so hard to knock the dogs**t out of someone (I haven't heard it said that way in quite some time; ah to reminisce!). The difficulty comes with trying to out-coordinate your attacker...if that makes sense.
In my mind, the different martial arts aren't tools for fighting (ie- resolving a conflict with a desired result) as much as they are tools for learning how to fight and in that sense, having a good teacher is more important than having the right tool (being that these particular tools share many of the same properties and uses). To get a little pedantic, comparing different arts isn't like simply comparing hammers and screwdrivers, unless you're talking about prying something apart (ie-flathead vs the claw end of a hammer). Both can do it, but knowing how to use your own particular tool of choice is far more crucial than having the "right" tool. In the same sense, we're all just learning how to use the same form (ie-body and mind) with precision and potency. Having the right guide is what's important...and the quality of that will vary in every art and is relative to each individual student's learning style. One teacher can be perfect for one student but not another; same thing goes for the form/art itself.

Daniel Ranger-Holt
01-02-2008, 03:01 PM
Jorce:

Yes i am dependant on an art, and an art alone to teach me because i have no martial arts knowledge at all besides Aikido. I bought "the goods to the fight" with aikido. Dedicated attended lessons three times a week. And was told i was the fastest learner they had had in years so i disagree that i will fail at another art. Because i tried hard with Aikido. It's just not for me, for real world self defence i don't feel comfortable with it. And as im seeing from a few private messages, others seriously dont as well. I think im just the fool who's come out and said it.

William:

Yeah sure i should train everyday if im serious about self defence. But three times a week is better than no training at all right? And obviously there are basic punching and kicking drills that can be done at home with equipment. I'm never going to be super human and i could get knocked out tommorow. But what im trying to say to people is, i'd feel comfortable standing in front of someone who about to violently attack me / or who IS violently attacking me with 2 years Kickboxing, Taw Kwondo, Boxing, Krav, then i would Aikido...Aikido as I known it. Please, i am not trying to offend people. I haven't even told this to my own dojo i feel so bad. I'm just airing serious points i feel get swept under the carpet sometimes. People are learning Aikido to defend themselves with on the streets remember...that's why i took it up. But it seems more bogged down with other stuff i can't quite put my finger on, than straight self defence.

Micheal:

Very interesting read thanks.

"I suspect there's alot of opportunity to apply aikido from your initial reaction, it's just that your initial reaction is likely to be so different from what you feel it should be (based on what is done in the dojo) that you figure Aikido hasn't "stuck". But what if we're only talking about one split second being the problem. What if you can flinch, cover up, and then start to lead, blend, throw, control. It's a possiblity."

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I agree with you. All i'm saying is, surely at this point i should already feel to blend and control? If people said to me "well aikido taught me to do this in 3-6 months fine" then i would think it was me. But not one person has said Aikido has taught them how to defend themselves in a real fight, in a short space of time. Because IMO its not likely it can in a short amount of time.

Jorge:

See with respect, this to me is crazy...

"He said that O Sensei didn't create Aikido for ordinary people originally. He said that Aikido isn't an art that people coming off the street can walk in and understand. He said that a budo master can understand this art immediately but an ordinary person will have to study for many years before he can even begin to understand it."

If someone would have said this to me as i first walked into the Dojo i would have been back out before the door had closed behind me. I'm not a budo master. You posted the above like it's something to be proud of. For people into japanese culture, philosophy etc etc then that's fine. But for an "ordinary person" the above is madness to me. As for getting another job, that's just plain rude. I can handle people without aikido, you dont need to be a martial artist to be a doorman. But if you have a good martial art behind you, it increases your safety. Which is what im looking to do.

"I also think that you lack a basic understanding of what most martial arts are all about."

With respect i dont care for what most martial arts are about. What i care for is being able to physically defend myself when someone very violent is coming for me. Not the philosophy behind martial arts, the honour, all this is hippy stuff. If this makes me less honourable, or whatever else then so be it. The more i read, the more i see i did enter into Aikdo with the wrong mindset. As most people are saying "its about you not the art" or "only the wise understand the aikido path" and all of this...don't you feel embaressed saying this? Its people like yourself Jorge, and i dont mean this disrespectfully. But it's that kind of attitude toward everyday guys like myself looking to learn a bit of self defence that gives Aikido a real bad name amongst most people outside of the art.

Micheal:

Perhaps Krav wont be for me, but thats fine if so then i move on and find an art that will serve me better. Aikido is not my religion, or my "way of life" it is, always has been something im learning to defend myself with. And that only. But personally i dont think you're correct. I feel it's as simple as the Aikido not being for me. I put a lot of time and effort into every part of my Aikido training. If i was alacklusture student i would agree with you, but i wasn't.

Gianluigi:

I'm guessing you didnt read my post or my reasons for Krav Maga and just picked up on this discussion half way through. I wouldnt watch one video and then decide to dedicate my life to a martial art. Im a 28 yr old man with a daughter. Former office manager. Not a kid looking for cool martial arts to do. I dont even watch martial art movies. lol. But thanks anyway.

Jeff:

Good point, i suppose because ive studyed what ive thought of as Aikido for so long, and i dont feel very comfrotable with it. It's put me off the whole Aikido thing altogether. If i came on here and most people were saying no no, your school sounds way off, then fine. But to be honest most responses seem to be skirting around the fact that for the most part, what i'm saying about Aikido is correct. I also think, and i havent mentioned this, im looking for something a bit more real world. With the bowing to pictures, Bokken and Jo walking and waving. I posted about this before actually. And Japanese terminoligy. Extending Ki power through our fingers at the end of the lesson and then clenching our buttocks to keep the KI power in......um.....i just want to defend myself against thugs.

James:
"In my humble opinion, aikido is meant for dealing with people that we don't want to hurt. It's great for dealing with Grandpa when he's off his meds and gets violent. It's great for dealing with Uncle Larry when he's drunk. It's great for dealing with a sixteen year old kid who hasn't seen enough injury and death to know how stupid his actions are."

This is what i thought, i thought the exact same thing. I dont want to be a champion UFC fighter. King kickboxer. I just want to deal with people effectively and safely. Which is what i thought Aikido would teach me. And three nights a week, on the mat i dealt with people effectively and safely. But as soon as real life stepped in, five nights a week. I saw that my Aikido just didnt work or wasn't even needed. Its hard to explain, but in the fast paced light of confrontation its just so so different.

It's also at this point that i want to say my club (there are four in Luton BTW) teaches aikido in no way different to any other Aikido i have seen all over the internet and the 100's of videos from every different school around the world. I think the main bulk of my problem is just as simple as the art itself.

I couldnt imagine going to a kick boxing forum and reading many posts saying "would kickboxing work in a fight" but it's all over Aikido forums and other martial art forums, saying the same thing about aikido. Aikido is unique in its own insecurity as to if it would actuallly work in a real situation. There is a reason for that, and i suspect its because for the person who hasn't studies aikido for a very long time..it probably wouldnt work.

The teachers at my club knew my concerns and one in particular went to great lengths to help me. He is the one i mentioned before. He actually incorporated throat strikes, and headlocks into his aikido and always stressed atemi. This is why i admired his style it seemed effective. But even he said to me when i asked. It will take you a years before you even grasp Aikido, compared to other striking arts, simply because it is so different to everything else.

In short, with open and for the first time truly un-biased eyes i see why quite a few martial arts soley critisize aikido. Its even critisised on Wikipedia which doesnt happen to martial arts on there. People said these things to me a few months in and i see why. It seems to me Aikido is an effective martial art for those who have stuck at it for over 5 years solid. To me now, that kind of time frame is too much if you're looking to use it to defend yourself on the street. Everytime i hear talk of techniques never ever really being learnt, or "O Sensei never taught a single technique" and when i hear 10 yr aikido black belts say "i still feel im a beginner at aikido and always will" and all that talk...it makes me put my hands in my head and weep tears.

Maybe deep down inside im an A-Hole who wants to deal with quickly and painfully people who run at me with bottles, throw punches at me, and try to headbutt me, or glass me. I dont think i am but maybe i am, and maybe that's why im looking for something a bit more real

...life is a journey and leaving one art for the next is simply a stop on that journey...wow that almost sounded "aikido"

(joke)

Now i need a drink.

Will Prusner
01-02-2008, 03:09 PM
...comparing different arts isn't like simply comparing hammers and screwdrivers, unless you're talking about prying something apart (ie-flathead vs the claw end of a hammer). Both can do it, but knowing how to use your own particular tool of choice is far more crucial than having the "right" tool.

yes, point taken and agreed. I admit I didn't think the analogy through to this level. I was speaking more from a place of feeling more well-rounded, having a basic working knowledge of the movements and philosophy of the art, for instance I would feel like my "toolbox" was more complete having both a screwdriver (phillips and flathead) and a hammer (claw, ballpeen, and a rubber mallet):D . Options are good.

Thanks for making the distinction.:)

oh, and to the OP, never consider any pursuit of knowledge or technique a waste of time, take what you learned and apply what you can. You may choose not to continue your study of Aikido, but, I'm sure there are at least a couple techniques, principles, ideas you can incorporate and expand upon that have made your study worthwhile in some capacity... maybe they will prove to be more useful in unforeseen situations and personal encounters than they will at the barroom door.

Daniel Ranger-Holt
01-02-2008, 03:24 PM
You may choose not to continue your study of Aikido, but, I'm sure there are at least a couple techniques, principles, ideas you can incorporate and expand upon that have made your study worthwhile in some capacity... maybe they will prove to be more useful in unforeseen situations and personal encounters than they will at the barroom door.

There must be, i think it would be impossible for me not to take something from the time ive spent. And maybe that's what it's all about. We'll see.

Aiki Teacher
01-02-2008, 05:15 PM
To all of the aikidoka who are posting in response to this string. When someone claims they are leaving Aikido, why do we feel that we have to talk them out of leaving? The poster has already made clear this is not for him. He clearly has not been in the art long enough to appreciate this art. He has also said it is not for him. Let go. He will continue to make blanket responses about the value or lack of value of aikido. We could all pull up situations where aikido has worked for us, but he would still criticize this experience. Why waste the time and the typing trying to convince someone who is not interested.

We could all come up with stories where one martial art or another has failed in one instant or another. There is no one best art!
The person must find the art that fits him and his personality.

I have been watching the Discovery Channel's show, The Human Weapon. The two travelers on the show are people who come from a mixed martial arts background. One is actually a champion. Yet every week they get beaten by people in traditional martial arts.
Does that mean that mma is invalid? No, It just means that each art has its own value. But, it is interesting, that the people in the traditional arts who take the time and years to study the art continually defeat the two men on the show?

So as the saying goes. "Don't leave angry, just leave." and if you're leaving, then go and don't continue to hang around when obviously your not interested. Go to a Krav Maga website and post for them.

Aiki Teacher
01-02-2008, 05:18 PM
To all of the aikidoka who are posting in response to this string. When someone claims they are leaving Aikido, why do we feel that we have to talk them out of leaving? The poster has already made clear this is not for him. He clearly has not been in the art long enough to appreciate this art. He has also said it is not for him. Let go. He will continue to make blanket responses about the value or lack of value of aikido. We could all pull up situations where aikido has worked for us, but he would still criticize this experience. Why waste the time and the typing trying to convince someone who is not interested.

We could all come up with stories where one martial art or another has failed in one instant or another. There is no one best art!
The person must find the art that fits him and his personality.

I have been watching the Discovery Channel's show, The Human Weapon. The two travelers on the show are people who come from a mixed martial arts background. One is actually a champion. Yet every week they get beaten by people in traditional martial arts.
Does that mean that mma is invalid? No, It just means that each art has its own value. But, it is interesting, that the people in the traditional arts who take the time and years to study the art continually defeat the two men on the show?

So as the saying goes. "Don't leave angry, just leave." and if you're leaving, then go and don't continue to hang around when obviously your not interested. Go to a Krav Maga website and post for them.

I wish you were more interested in learning the art. But it does take longer to learn. If that is not your thing, fine. But please stay off the sour grapes routine

Roman Kremianski
01-02-2008, 08:17 PM
The two travelers on the show are people who come from a mixed martial arts background. One is actually a champion. Yet every week they get beaten by people in traditional martial arts.

1) Only Jason Chambers comes from an MMA background, while Bill Duff comes from an NFL background


2) The hosts do not get "beaten " by the martial artists they meet, but merely spar with them under the rules of the art they are featuring.

I think one of the reasons the OP left Aikido is the lack of interest and involvement Aikidoka show in other styles.

Mattias Bengtsson
01-02-2008, 08:43 PM
When I started training Aikido I was immediatley told, that I shouldnt expect to become this great martial artist able to kick ass and chew bubblegum from Aikido. That the best self defense art is to run fast, and that that the best way to avoid injury in a street fight was not go get mixed up in it at all.

I replied that I was fine with this.. if it was my intention to learn how to "beat people up" I would have picked up Krav Maga instead (just like the OP, funnily enough)

So I understand what OP is talking about, and I respect his reasons for leaving.

I dont study Aikido to beat people up myself. I study it to defend myself.
And there is a difference.

Roman Kremianski
01-02-2008, 09:03 PM
I think it's plainly obvious the best martial art on teh street is Olympic Sprinting.

Kevin Leavitt
01-02-2008, 10:25 PM
Running can be a good option. One I would highly recommend as a defensive tactic for most.

Many though have jobs or we are put in situations where running is not the thing we must do.

Bouncers for instance are hired to keep the peace in a bar and remove those that are not complying with the rules.

Good bouncers are those that can recognize trouble long before it starts and can influence the situation before it escalate into physical action. That is not to say that a bad bouncer is one that has situations that get physical! Some times it happens!

So, a bouncer must have a wide range of skills from verbal and non-verbal communication skills, to skills that allow him/her to remove someone from the bar physically with minmal damage.

They must also be able to protect themselves when things get really bad and there may be multiple people involved.

They must also know when to grab the "big stick" from behind the bar, and when to call in the calvary to!

Anyway, the point is, running is not always the right option.

If you see a couple of guys beating up a little ole lady, do you just run away, or watch, or do you take action? How much force is permissible to use?

Do you pull out your concealed gun, point it at them and tell them to lay off or you will shoot? Do you fire a round in the air to get their attention? What do you do?

It can get complicated very quickly.

Thankfully most of us never need to use what we learn or are put in those situations!

Daniel Ranger-Holt
01-02-2008, 11:13 PM
I dont study Aikido to beat people up myself. I study it to defend myself.
And there is a difference.

Thats why i studied Aikido as well. But i found in real life situations it doesn't work. As ive said numerous times i dont want to beat people up. Just defend myself well. If you think you can throw any kind of lock or hold on someone throwing a real punch at real speed you're kidding yourself like i was. Just you tube boxing or punching if you haven't had real life altercations. And you will see what i mean. Punches come as hard snaps, not someone in a line, running toward you fist extended. Aikido is fooling a lot of people i feel.

As for those saying if im not happy with Aikido go, and stop posting. With respect, no. Theres people on here who no longer study Aikido but still post. If the thread makes uncomfrotable reading for you, then dont read it. Simple. I am being respectful and taking in other peoples views. Until i fully get into Krav or another art i will continue to read peoples responses and opinions because i find what everybody is sayng interesting.

Thanks

Daniel Ranger-Holt
01-02-2008, 11:19 PM
Good bouncers are those that can recognize trouble long before it starts and can influence the situation before it escalate into physical action. That is not to say that a bad bouncer is one that has situations that get physical! Some times it happens!

So, a bouncer must have a wide range of skills from verbal and non-verbal communication skills, to skills that allow him/her to remove someone from the bar physically with minmal damage.

They must also be able to protect themselves when things get really bad and there may be multiple people involved.

They must also know when to grab the "big stick" from behind the bar, and when to call in the calvary to!

Anyway, the point is, running is not always the right option.

If you see a couple of guys beating up a little ole lady, do you just run away, or watch, or do you take action? How much force is permissible to use?

Do you pull out your concealed gun, point it at them and tell them to lay off or you will shoot? Do you fire a round in the air to get their attention? What do you do?

It can get complicated very quickly.

Thankfully most of us never need to use what we learn or are put in those situations!

Luckily i have about 9 years of customer service behind me, and for my job its been essential. I know how to speak to people for the most part. Ive worked in fault call centres, credit collection, al the work telephone style jobs you could imagine. I know how to speak to people, which is why i rose to a high position.

Applying it to doorwork has been easy. I find its about humbling myself most of the time. Someone steps to me "right so you wanna fight do you? ok lets go now" i reply most of the time something along the lines of "no of course i don't want to fight you. I just want you to stop shouting, and carry on enjoying your night etc etc" most of the time this can work. Other doormen have different approaches though...and as im speaking come flying in with a karate kick or something..

I look at it like if i've avoided a fight for the night, then its a good nights work. I don't get payed enough to "fight" everynight. But after working all over the south east of the UK unfortunetely my home town is the worst. So it gets physical a fair few times. So i need to defend myself for real.

MM
01-03-2008, 07:25 AM
Thats why i studied Aikido as well. But i found in real life situations it doesn't work. As ive said numerous times i dont want to beat people up. Just defend myself well. If you think you can throw any kind of lock or hold on someone throwing a real punch at real speed you're kidding yourself like i was. Just you tube boxing or punching if you haven't had real life altercations. And you will see what i mean. Punches come as hard snaps, not someone in a line, running toward you fist extended. Aikido is fooling a lot of people i feel.

As for those saying if im not happy with Aikido go, and stop posting. With respect, no. Theres people on here who no longer study Aikido but still post. If the thread makes uncomfrotable reading for you, then dont read it. Simple. I am being respectful and taking in other peoples views. Until i fully get into Krav or another art i will continue to read peoples responses and opinions because i find what everybody is sayng interesting.

Thanks

If you want to stay and post, I don't see any reason why you can't. Got no problem with that. :)

However, you're posts tend to lump "aikido" into one big world. As in your first paragraph. Some people's experiences with aikido don't run the same as yours. So, stop for a second and think about a few things. First, Ueshiba Morihei pretty much let a whole range of people test him. People who were high up in the martial arts world thought highly of him. In other words, he made Aikido work in all situations. Now, think of Shioda, Tomiki, and Tohei. They were tested also. By lots of people. Just research Kevin Blok's meeting with Shioda. So, their (Shioda, Tomiki, Tohei) Aikido worked. I don't think Chuck Clark, Dennis Hooker, Saotome, Ikeda, or Ellis Amdur (to name a few) have many problems with their Aikido working. At least not in the view you are taking. And I hear a lot of good things coming out of the TNBBC and I'm hoping that I'll be able to make a visit out there one day.

Really, unless you've experienced all these variations of Aikido, you can't sum up "in real life situations it doesn't work" and "Aikido is fooling a lot of people". Yes, you feel that way, but really, it isn't the Aikido that's failing. And hey, I don't have any problems stating, my aikido sucks. But, I'm working to correct that. :)

Mark

Josh Reyer
01-03-2008, 09:23 AM
Perhaps the most interesting thing about aikido is that the art itself can be all things to all people, but it all depends on the dojo. Soccer mom self-defense? It can be that. Hard core self-defense? It can be that. Weapons? Sure. Randori and competition? Got that, too. Spirituality? It's there. "Ki" training? It's there, too. The problem, of course, is finding the dojo that offers the kind of aikido one is looking for.

I've said this before, but the Tokyo police have a lot of martial arts to choose from. They're professionals, and what they train in has to work. Particularly since they are not allowed to carry guns except in special circumstances. Yoshinkan Aikido is a required course for female officers, and is an option for the kidoutai (riot police), and also taught to members of the Security Police (who provide security for members of government).

Which suggests to me that there's nothing wrong with "aikido" when it comes to subduing resisting opponents under strict rules of engagement. It sounds like your dojo, however, was not teaching you the kind of aikido you needed to know. Which is a problem, and you seem to have addressed it. But you should probably try some of the many other "flavors" (and dojo) of aikido before you write it off completely.

Edit: Also, don't labor under the misconception that the attacks in aikido are meant to simulate actual combat scenarios. They represent certain shapes of energy, which you then learn to manipulate. The idea of aikido is not "he punches me, I respond with shiho-nage", but rather "through shiho-nage, I learn how to manipulate this shape of energy coming at me." To be sure, there are many in aikido who don't quite understand this distinction.

L. Camejo
01-03-2008, 09:24 AM
The OP would do well to re-read Kevin L.'s post #60 and Mark M.'s post #63.

Imho if one truly wants to leave anything then they just leave, there is no need to let anyone else know. Imho those who make an issue of it and announce their leaving are actually looking for a reason not to, i.e. they are looking for a reaction from someone to tell them that there may be another option to leaving.

I think the point of this thread is not about leaving Aikido at all, but about attempting to warn people that many Aikido dojo do not provide what they say with regard to usable real world skills. I agree totally with this.

However as Kevin L. says here - Bouncers for instance are hired to keep the peace in a bar and remove those that are not complying with the rules.

Good bouncers are those that can recognize trouble long before it starts and can influence the situation before it escalate into physical action. That is not to say that a bad bouncer is one that has situations that get physical! Some times it happens!

So, a bouncer must have a wide range of skills from verbal and non-verbal communication skills, to skills that allow him/her to remove someone from the bar physically with minmal damage.

They must also be able to protect themselves when things get really bad and there may be multiple people involved.

They must also know when to grab the "big stick" from behind the bar, and when to call in the calvary to! one must be able to know what to do when. I still think that the OP went to an Aikido dojo in an attempt to get bouncer training.

I teach Aikido and Jujutsu and some of my Jujutsu Sensei actually got together and created a tailor-made training regimen to certify bouncers as being capable of having the tools necessary to do their job well (most of the Sensei are L.E.O.s also). The reason was because they found that the pure martial arts curriculum did not work precisely well for people like Bouncers, LEOs etc. who want a focused, specialized approach to address their specific needs, and they had a few of these folks in their dojo at the time.

Aikido can be applied easily to Bouncer's work but it is not a Bouncer training system. If one goes to a plumber to get their shoes fixed one is bound to be disappointed imho.:)
If you think you can throw any kind of lock or hold on someone throwing a real punch at real speed you're kidding yourself If this is the reality of your Aikido experience then I'd have to agree with William H. and say the problem is with your dojo/instruction not Aikido itself. For many of us, the quoted area above is not a problem at all. It comes down to your training methods and goals.

Just some thoughts.

kironin
01-03-2008, 09:55 AM
Running can be a good option. One I would highly recommend as a defensive tactic for most.


I think it's more than simple running. It's tatics of escape and evasion along the lines that Marc MacYoung no nonsense self defense program espouses. Obviously this applies to some situations and not others.


Many though have jobs or we are put in situations where running is not the thing we must do.

Bouncers for instance are hired to keep the peace in a bar and remove those that are not complying with the rules.

Good bouncers are those that can recognize trouble long before it starts and can influence the situation before it escalate into physical action. That is not to say that a bad bouncer is one that has situations that get physical! Some times it happens! ...

They must also know when to grab the "big stick" from behind the bar, and when to call in the calvary to!


My brother worked as bouncer when he was in law school. He had good verbal skills and no martial arts training. He did know a few simple skills to take out trouble makers quickly if it came to that. He was an ex-athlete who still did strength conditioning (around 260 lbs at 6'1") and the bar had a real good buddy system. His back up was an ex OU lineman who was taller and over 300 lbs. and who brought the big stick if all hell broke loose.

A friend of mine worked as bouncer in a what was affectionately called a "blood 'n guts" bar in Kenmore Square back in the day. Nightly fights were the norm. This guy loved a good bar brawl, probably why he worked there. He was a scrappier guy, not over 6' I think and lighter than 200. But he had cobbled together some decent skills from experience and there was the fact that he was pretty fearless and didn't mind being knocked out on occasion when all hell broke loose. Again, the bar bouncers had good buddy system and used strategies and teamwork. The usual result was the unconscious offending party were tossed in the dumpster out back to sleep it off.

The point really is in neither case was being an expert martial artists or training in any martial art by the individual a necessity for the job. What was a necessity was knowing how to talk to people, having a few simple skills to end a physical confrontation before it started, and having a buddy system and teamwork tatics in place for when all hell broke loose to as quickly as possible put an end to it.

Having a few simple skills and strategies and working on getting them down in an uncooperative environment in a few months is realistic working with those that have the same career need. Walking in to a traditional martial arts school which has so many other goals and students with probably even more reasons and goals, I really can't understand why it took two years for the OP to figure this out that the training wasn't what would fit the bill. Why he thinks another school built on cobbling together various traditional martial art moves is going to fit the bill either is beyond me. Yes punch and kicking is easier to pantomime and feel like you doing something. NOT a big revelation.

Hey thanks for the youtube stuff on Tony Blauer. As a neuroscientist I was aware of the speed of the startle/flinch response and the issue of hard wired responses and lack of habituation to a novel stimulus. I thought he had nice clear approach. Amazing what you can find on youtube!

Roman Kremianski
01-03-2008, 10:07 AM
Hey Kevin I didn't say the ancient samurai art of Olympic sprinting was effective in clubs, just streets.

Ron Tisdale
01-03-2008, 10:19 AM
Ditto what Larry said...

Best,
Ron

kironin
01-03-2008, 10:33 AM
Thats why i studied Aikido as well. But i found in real life situations it doesn't work. As ive said numerous times i dont want to beat people up. Just defend myself well. If you think you can throw any kind of lock or hold on someone throwing a real punch at real speed you're kidding yourself like i was. Just you tube boxing or punching if you haven't had real life altercations. And you will see what i mean. Punches come as hard snaps, not someone in a line, running toward you fist extended. Aikido is fooling a lot of people i feel.


This is not about aikido. This is a matter of the right kind of training.

Whether a particular martial arts school can provide an immediate need like that has a lot more to do with the experiences of the teacher, what kind of training they have been exposed to including cross-training or life training. What the goals of the training are. What the goals of the school are.

It's important to know the why, what, and limitations of a particular type of training are.

Yes it would be fooling a person if they came in with goals more appropriate to participating in a model mugging course.

Yes it would be fooling a person if they came in with an immediate need to learn some skills to be a good bouncer.

Usually some martial artist who takes on some career move that has immediate needs like a bouncer, was already training for quite a few years, 1st degree black belt at least, and so they simply have to learn to adapt their already acquired skills to the special situation. The point is they do need to adapt.

What you found was that the level of your skill set from your training so far was not up to your immediate needs. People have solved this issues in various ways. One way is to jump to another art. Another is to add training specialized to the immediate need. Another is to simply cross-train in a complementary art that incorporates the type of training needed (goals of the art or school are different). Find an aikido teacher who provide that training because of their own goals that fits the immediate need. Find a professional school or program that caters to immediate need for those with particular jobs.

Honestly, you sound as foolish as someone who expects to be able to write a novel because they learned how to spell and then finding disappointment, they decide the solution is to learn how to spell in another language.

Budd
01-03-2008, 10:46 AM
I put my own time in bouncing in college and then later as a behavorial counselor in a residential facility for kids with behavior issues. I had a lot more good practice de-escalating a situation before it got started, but at the same time, when it was time to go hands on, you couldn't hesitate about it.

I had a good bit of experience in judo and wrestling then (with a solid year and half of aikido in high school), but was also in my height of karate training - talk about the wrong set of reflexes! The bouncing gig discouraged throwing strikes, but we could if defending ourselves (plus there's lots of things you can accidentally deliver *oops* to someone you have to put hands on).

But working with the kids (up to 17 years old) was a different matter and was actually more dangerous, because, in general, they were in less control of themselves, more willing to throw themselves at you with no regard for consequences and you were under much greater constraints in what you could physically do to defend yourself (not to mention the incredible amount of paperwork that followed any hands-on encounter).

And it was about that time I gave up karate, because the training I was getting there was not helping me perform my job function. Worse, it was detrimental in that I had the hesitation of stopping myself from throwing what I had been training to do. So I went back to playing with the college wrestling club and that worked out much better for me.

So, I can relate to finding an art that isn't workging out, though I can also allow that it depends what you put into it. But, I do welcome OP to continue posting here. I think it's helpful here to hear all perspectives of people that practice aikido. If everyone agreed about everything and didn't question anything, it would get dull pretty quickly . . .

mickeygelum
01-03-2008, 12:55 PM
What you found was that the level of your skill set from your training so far was not up to your immediate needs. People have solved this issues in various ways. One way is to jump to another art. Another is to add training specialized to the immediate need. Another is to simply cross-train in a complementary art that incorporates the type of training needed (goals of the art or school are different). Find an aikido teacher who provide that training because of their own goals that fits the immediate need.

It could not have expressed it better than this, thank you Mr. Hocker.

In all, everyone wants to be the best at what they aspire to be. But, in reality, they want it all in one package that dissolves quickly and assimilates immediately. That is impossible, train for the trained fighter not the irate drunkard or occasional bully. Your skill set test is 2-I-D, (Identify, Intervene, Defuse, Disengage), these may be tacit or verbal. Restrain and Remove are last resort options. When this is the step you are at, you must be prepared for anything..thus, not all training gives you all that you need in one package.

Cross-training is the key, you only get out of your training what you put into it.

A few questions I have, you do not have to answer if you do not care to. Why do you want to be a "Bouncer" ? Why do you train at a church-based Aikido club and want to be Bouncer in a bar? Your Sensei ,according to the website, does not have any experience in this type of occupation, why did you choose this dojo?

http://www.dcmurphy.f2s.com/content.php?article.1.255

Mickey

mathewjgano
01-03-2008, 03:52 PM
If you think you can throw any kind of lock or hold on someone throwing a real punch at real speed you're kidding yourself like i was. Just you tube boxing or punching if you haven't had real life altercations. And you will see what i mean. Punches come as hard snaps, not someone in a line, running toward you fist extended. Aikido is fooling a lot of people i feel.

I've looked for real time Aikido examples on YouTube and haven't found much either. I've also seen some pretty good sucker punches in my day to get a basic idea of how quick a strike can come. The punches you're describing aren't practiced at either of the dojos I've spent any time in and while a person knows it's coming, I've seen some pretty full speed stuff being applied pretty well, so far as I can tell. I'm far from being a prize fighter, but I've known enough scrappers to have a sense of the "average" person's ability to strike and be countered...at least, in my neck of the woods. Interestingly enough, it's usually when I've been surprised that I've been the most successfull applying a technique. When I think about what to do, I've almost always failed.
Speaking so broadly just seems a bit excessive to me. I don't think Aikido has been fooling people so much as it seems to often be very subtle and difficult to learn. Personally, I was skeptical when I first saw it. It's only over time of interacting with it that I've come to have any trust in it.

kironin
01-03-2008, 03:57 PM
It could not have expressed it better than this, thank you Mr. Hocker.

http://www.dcmurphy.f2s.com/content.php?article.1.255

Mickey

Well, both of us could use a good editor. :D

There are NO hidden costs. The Luton Aikido Club does not have a joining fee for new members.

The standard charge for each two-hour session is £2 (but £1 for concessions).

The club sessions are as follows: - Sundays, 1pm 3pm (but NOT the first Sunday in the month; Wednesdays, 8pm 10pm; Thursdays, 8pm 10pm.

Damn! That's cheap! Certainly can't beat the price!

Kevin Leavitt
01-03-2008, 04:02 PM
Cool, you guys covered it pretty well. Roman, I thought that is what you studied..Run Fu Ryu? :) Just kidding with you, I know you well enough from here to know you know better! Didn't mean to imply otherwise! I just used it as a talking point as running is brought up alot it seems as an option, and it is probably about as good advice as you can give anyone (or escape and evasion as it was more aptly put).

Anyway, most of you guys covered this pretty darn well....

I'd say that for rote self defense, RBSD, or Bouncer training that aikido methodology is about as inefficient of a delivery mechanism as going to a plumber as Larry put it!

However, (big however), you are concerned with a deeper study of the spectrum of force, dealing with it more skillfully, etc, refining your abilities...then I'd say it is worthwile...hence why we have a fair number of police officers involved I think.

it might be therapy for some of these guys, but I think for many it is a way that they can work through at a deeper level the spectrum of things.

I find the methodology useful in my part profession, (training military soldiers in Combatives), I'd never mention aikido nor would I attempt to use the methodology to train them directly, as it is as I put, a ineffficient system for delivering the skills they need in the time they have to spend with me.

It is a good practice for me to learn the subtleness of applications and stuff like that.

You could equate it to taking courses on Organic Chemistry to become a wine maker.

Certainly you don't need Org Chem to make wine, all you do is ferment so grapes. If this is your goal, then why waste your time getting an enology or biochem degree???

However, if you are interested is cause and effect, making the best when possible or explaining why things are the way they are....well you need to delve a little deeper into winemaking!

I think aikido and internal martial arts, in general fall into that category.

I can teach someone to be fairly proficient in beating people up....that is easy, even teach them in fairly short order to defend themselves with minimal damage in most situations.

For many though, and I put myself and many that are here in this same category....There is much more to "the down and dirty".

We are professionals that have taken an oath in some fashion to be the best we can be....Aikido, Budo...is for this....

It is about the Craft...not the delivery nor the tools.

It was interesting living in Germany for the last few years. I noticed that in many cases there are still artisians in the old country, woodworkers, master craftsmen, and those that serve long apprentistships to become skilled experts in their trade.

I am not so sure this happens so much in the U.S these days. Most people learn enough to get by, and it serves them well long enough to make enough to survive or retire.

Seems like those that do follow the path of mastery or art are almost looked upon as "geeks", "weirdos" or what not.

Why is that???

Kevin Leavitt
01-03-2008, 04:06 PM
Matthew wrote:

've looked for real time Aikido examples on YouTube and haven't found much either

I think this is because it ends up looking like grappling, MMA, or other forms of non-compliant jiujitsu.

The dynamics of how we train in aikido, while principally sound, do not carry over as a direct dynamic of reality. This is why you find guys like me that study aikido for many years, then proceed to go out and get their ass handed to them by someone that could careless how long you studied aikido, or how you do a proper iriminage!

There are those out there that can demonstrate aikido principles in non-compliance..the problem is, it ends up looking like other stuff, and it the teaching point of aikido gets lost...so why bother?

Esaemann
01-04-2008, 11:21 AM
Daniel,
I don't think my Sensei would object, but if I were talking to a potential student who stated their main goal was as yours, I would not encourage Aikido. Sorry I wasn't the person you talked to before starting, because it would have saved you the time.

Yours is not the kind of job I'd want to have. Luckily, I only have to be concerned with the much lesser chance of being attacked by a stranger on the street. Although, as an auditor, I suppose threats may be forthcoming. For that reason, I train with and carry a gun. But I know that isn't an option in the UK. I also sure as heck don't do Tai Chi to be able to protect myself.

Good luck and stay safe,
Eric

Will Prusner
01-04-2008, 11:29 AM
I also sure as heck don't do Tai Chi to be able to protect myself.

How come?

Esaemann
01-04-2008, 12:24 PM
Because I do it for health reasons and to calm down. It seems to be helping. It also helps with my grounding and balance.

Will Prusner
01-04-2008, 02:23 PM
Tai chi has a serious martial aspect if you can find a qualified and willing teacher. I heard O-Sensei was a Tai-chi practitioner, wonder if there is any video of that?

Aristeia
01-04-2008, 02:38 PM
Tai chi has a serious martial aspect if you can find a qualified and willing teacher. I heard O-Sensei was a Tai-chi practitioner, wonder if there is any video of that?
Some times I feel like the question is - are there any martial arts that some people do *not* consider are great choices for self defence...

mickeygelum
01-04-2008, 02:50 PM
I heard O-Sensei was a Tai-chi practitioner, wonder if there is any video of that?

HUH!?...Did you just make that up? evileyes

mike.quinn@fsmail.net
01-04-2008, 02:51 PM
:ai: Hi!, As you bothered to write your goodbye at some length, it suggests you are looking for some kind olive branch from aikido, a way to show you Aikido can work?. I am only a 5th kyu and a very rusty one, as I left over 8 yrs ago, to concentrate on Wado Karate. I am 1st Dan now. Krav Maga is by it's own admittance a hybrid system, however, all arts are hybrid, then become traditional as time passes. Working in security as you do is not the same as all out fighting, as in security ,restraint and close up work is needed rather than punching etc. Legal eagles would take a dim view of security people punching or kicking clients, even if your situation had put you in that position. Try keeping Aiki as your core art, and by all means train in other styles to supplement. Aiki is longevity, maybe long after you give up security, Aiki has a heritage, and if you could interview O'Sensei, could you look him in the eye with your queries?. Your Aiki teacher may not supply you with what you need as your aims will differ from average student!. However Aiki roots are in the battlefield are they not?. Aiki training has weaknesses , such as constant emphasis on wrist grabs, compliance etc. Hoever, its strengths are tai sabaki body movement, trying to turn your opponent, ukemi, multiple attack randori, defence against knives, attacking the attack with you entry movement etc. The video supplied reinforces in my eyes aiki has answers to all those attacks. Away from Aiki, you can look at Geoff Thompson of the BCA, who teaches everything from fear control, to all out training, but even he and his peers will always return to traditional for the core principles. Cross training may be your answer, for punching as your back-up, or kicking or groundwork, but again i would keep Aiki as your core style. My own plans are to return to Aikido myself. Cheers!.

Esaemann
01-04-2008, 02:56 PM
William,
Very much agreed; never said it didn't.

Eric

Will Prusner
01-04-2008, 02:58 PM
HUH!?...Did you just make that up? evileyes

No, it's been debated inconclusively on a bunch of different forums. I'm certainly not claiming to have any definite knowledge of it, one way or the other. Do a web search, read some opinions. And call your optometrist to have that bad case of "Evil eye" checked out.

mickeygelum
01-04-2008, 04:20 PM
:D ..........................evileyes

Ron Tisdale
01-04-2008, 07:59 PM
it's been debated inconclusively on a bunch of different forums
ah, actually, any of the more informed sites pretty much concluded that type of claim is bunk. Check aikidojournal.com and e-budo for some reasonable threads on Ueshiba and any possibilities of him actually training in Chinese arts while in Manchuria.

Spreading that kind of rumor here just adds to the problem.

Best,
Ron

Peter Ralls
01-05-2008, 03:28 AM
Daniel

I've been a law enforcement officer for twenty four years, and started aikido before I began my law enforcement career. i've used aikido and aikido techniques successfully many times. I have also been unsuccessful in applying aikido techniques at times as well.

I have also trained in another of other martial arts as well, and have used some of those art's techniques as well. Through hands on experience trying to control people in real life, I've learned what works for me, and when, and what hasn't worked for me. I thing each martial art that I have studied has it's strong points and weak points. There are some scenarios where I think aikido is very effective, and some where it's going to be very difficult to apply. For example, I have used sankyo dozens of times on drunks that are not responding to verbal commands. Now, I have trained a long time, but a lot of the cops I work with have received much less training than even a relative beginner in aikido like yourself, and I have seen them use sankyo successfully as well.

Now, when I put sankyo on a drunk, I have to grab his arm and get the wrist control on him before his addled mind can figure out what's going on. So I've learned to do it pretty fast. Still, a lot of times, the other person is going to feel the wrist control coming. Peoples natural reaction when you are trying to apply a control hold to their arm or wrist, is to pull the arm away and lock it against their body. When that happens, it is going to be pretty difficult to apply an aikido technique, but applying a judo technique is very simple. Judo is very well designed to deal with people pulling their arms into their bodies and tightening up. So if I miss the sankyo and the person pulls his arms in, I sweep their leg with an osoto gari and take them to the ground. I have done this many times as well, and I learned how to do this by trial and error in real struggles.

It's also very easy to justify this combination in terms of an escalation of force. So my report would read something like, "X failed to obey my verbal commands, so at that point I took control of his right arm to attempt to apply a control hold. X violently pulled his arm away from me, preventing my application of the control hold. I then swept his right leg with my right leg and brought him to the ground, where I was able to gain control of him." This gives his lawyer very little ammunition to use against me in a excessive force complaint.

If someone is coming at me trying to hit me, it's not the time to try and find a wrist technique, though I did pull off a kote gaeshi once. Generally when people have been trying to hit me I have had to respond with strikes with my hands or knees, or an impact weapon. But what a lot of people don't realize about strikes is that it people don't just fall down when you hit them once or twice, like in the video you posted. When I hit someone now I am always trying to hit them at an angle where I will knock them down. Sometimes I find it, and sometimes I don't. But some of the striking arts that promise that a strike or two will win the fight, like your video with multiple attackers where the defender hits one guy, who is then incapacitated and falls down, and the other attackers run away, doesn't exactly correspond with my real life experience. My experience is when you have to overcome someone by hitting them, it is usually a very prolonged and bloody experience.

And whenever I have been involved in this kind of thing the attacker frequently makes a complaint of excessive force. They always remember you hitting them, but seem to magically forget they started off hitting you.

So, anyway, in my experience, control holds such as sankyo and rear wrist locks (nikkyo variation) work well if you can get them on before the fight starts. Judo techniques work well when you are struggling with someone and you are holding on to each other, which actually seems to happen a lot. (We tend to grab onto people a lot in police work.) When someone is coming at you with strikes, striking in return is going to be the simplist way to go. I have gotten behind people with an irimi nage type entry, but have ended up bear hugging them from behind, I've never gotten off a classic irimi nage, probably because in real life the ma-ai is too short.

Last of all though, if you want your aikido to be more effective, you have to try and train realistically. If your dojo does everything slow motion, it's going to be hard to get much realism there. I am a big believer that if one martial art doesn't meet your needs or make you happy, go find another one. So I fully support your desire to go try different martial arts, I think that is a very good idea. But if you decide you want to come back to aikido, I would suggest finding a dojo where they train faster and more realistically. There are dojos out there that do. And last of all, my opinion is that the only way to make your martial art practise truly realistic is to actually use it in real life and learn for yourself what works and doesn't. It seems to me that you are already well along the way there. Good luck in your training.

Peter Ralls

Peter Chenier
01-05-2008, 03:40 AM
Hi Daniel,

I'm about 8 months into my aikido training. I came to aikido after a lifetime of kicking and punching. In fact even before I was trained I had a really good aptitude for street fighting.

Please do not take this the wrong way. I'm going to speak to you just like one of my early instructors did after I lost a fight in the street.

Daniel you are a giant dummy!

No fighting art is going to help you. Not until you figure out how not to be in the way of punches and attacks. The John Doe throwing the back hand at you is going to do it you time after time. You know that!!!.It's a natural truth for that kind of person. That's why you're dummy...

Think hard about what I'm saying..it could save your life someday

CarlRylander
01-05-2008, 03:57 AM
I think that the two Peter's comments are very useful to everyone, especially Peter Rall's.

I want to take up Aikido cos I want to at least do something that is going to help my with my coordination and reflexes that will help me in my old age.

The only thing I am bothered about, is that, at every point, I want to have a realistic idea of what I am capable of in a real fight. I don't want to go out and get creamed.

I've noticed, for every five Aikido clips I watch on the internet, it's good to watch one hapkido or judo clip, to balance. Ueshiba's clips are good, too. Everything else is derivative. He was well versed in other arts before he came to Aikido, but I think I would like to start off with Aikido first, then try some Judo or something.

crbateman
01-05-2008, 06:22 AM
I want to have a realistic idea of what I am capable of in a real fight.You will never know this until you are in a fight... The mental and physical conditions (both the positive and the negative) that occur in a fight (not to mention the stakes) are impossible to faithfully reproduce in the dojo. You can train to be prepared, and that makes good sense, but only being is truly knowing...

Saji Jamakin
01-05-2008, 12:41 PM
I've never had that problem. I am total Aikido. No additives, no supplements, no preservatives. I insist that I learn all my self-defense the aikido way and have been very satisfied.

Perhaps it's because I only have experience with Shodokan, (Tomiki), Aikido.

In my dojo within the first 3 weeks I was thrown into multiple attackers, free style, tanto randori. (That means alternating attacks with fake knives by two attackers for those of you who are unsure). The free style ment any attack was valid -- slashing, overhand stabs, underhand stabs, angles, etc. I did okay. Yes I got stabbed a coulple of times...by the intial attack or by the other attacker when I had successfully subdued the initial attacker. (Very Hhumbling)..

The point is and the point my instructor was trying to make is that my aikido needs to be tested at as near full speed uke and I could safely get. This help me correct my techniques and showed weekness in the application and understanding of a technique ie back to the drawing board.

So, I am quite perplexed by all of the questions about will aikido work in a fight or how come we don't practice at faster speeds because I was doing it within three weeks. We do learn all of our techniques slowly where correct application and smoothness is emphasized but it get's tested weekly.

If the other aikido schools are not testing their aikido then I would question the effectiveness of their techniques also. Why aren't you testing your aikido? Even if you are not doing tournaments like Shodokan Aikido you should still test your aikido. Can you apply that technique under stress? What if your first technique doesn't work?

And oh, that's another soar subject of mine.
I NEVER expect my first technique to work thats why we are taught to feel where ukes Ki is flowing and to change the technique or goto another one. Some of my friends call it a counter some call it a reverse. I guess it's because your reversing your Ki to match ukes. Shomenate is my favotite goto.
I suggest you look into some shodokan schools before leaving but it's your choice. For me; after studing other martial arts, it's all aikido for me no additive or preservative.

gregg block
01-05-2008, 12:44 PM
Your goals seem to require that you find a different art and quite frankly may require that you find a different job. Busting heads as a bouncer will get you fired, sued and possibly killed.
I studied a "hard" style of martial arts for 20 years prior to starting Aikido, did a lot of sparing and introduced my share of individuals to the "pavement"
I'm older now and I'm smarter now. I know I can put people to the "pavement" but honestly I would prefer to help them up now rather than put them down.
I guess if I started with Aikido I might have felt as you do. Your a young man you should probrably venture elsewhere, who knows you may find yourself returning at a later time. Aikido will still be here and we will welcome your return.. Good luck

CarlRylander
01-07-2008, 07:46 AM
Actually I had encounter with a bouncer a few weeks ago. Not a fight. He just blocked my path because I had trainers on.

They're incredibly strong and fit. They must weight train about two hours a day. they would have to.

I have a TKWD friend who told me he knew someone who had beaten up three bouncers in my town at the age of 58! That's incredible! I don't think I would ever be that good.

Roman Kremianski
01-07-2008, 10:04 PM
I have a TKWD friend who told me he knew someone who had beaten up three bouncers in my town at the age of 58! That's incredible! I don't think I would ever be that good.

Is there a screening for the new Karate Kid sequel somewhere that I'm missing?

CarlRylander
01-08-2008, 02:41 AM
Sarcasm is the lowest form of humour, Roman.

Why do you believe that if you can't do something, no-one else can?

I know an ex-heavyweight boxer who told me he had been in court in Spain for assualt on TWENTY EIGHT people.

No doubt you don't believe that either.

I don't have the vidclips or the website.

happysod
01-08-2008, 03:07 AM
Sarcasm is the lowest form of humour,I thought the phrase was "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit...", which I always felt was harsh - better some wit than half a wit.

I have to side with Roman here - two wild assertions provided third hand from unknown parties with no attempt to even provide substantiation and you expect to be taken seriously?

If you're not just trolling you may want to re-think how you present your facts. I'd probably suggest bullshido for a nice gentle introduction into the art of the martial art anecdote followed by the more robust e-budo for final polishing.

CarlRylander
01-08-2008, 03:17 AM
This amazes me.

I've never seen it myself, but I believe that it can happen. I've seen how fast some people can move. There's a bloke in my town who was in court for beating two people up. It was in the Gazette.

Isn't Aikido the one that teaches you hoe to take on multiple opponents? Don't all Martial arts at the highest levels? What's that all about? Is it all myth? The Bloke at my local dojo told me he had to take on two for his second dan.

Best Wishes.

mickeygelum
01-08-2008, 07:56 AM
Mr Kremianski, for someone with so little experience, 3rd kyu as of March 2007, you sure push the envelope...the beauty of the keystroke,eh?

I have fought more than one individual at once...cuffed two and pummeled the third...there were two of us and nine of them...needless to say the Aikido played an supporting role, but atemi,atemi,geri and more atemi, sure kept both of us standing. One of many war stories.

There is no video of this either, so it probably did not happen?

Mickey

happysod
01-08-2008, 08:56 AM
Michael, I know I'm not Roman but I do agree with his position - there's a big difference between the following two statements -

"I have a TKWD friend who told me he knew someone who..." and
"I know an ex-heavyweight boxer who told me..."

and your own

"I have fought more than one individual at once.."

The first are mere anecdotes with no real way of being measured for their reality (unlike Carls third option which was "It was in the Gazette." which tantalized us with the possibility of third-party corroboration).

With your own post you are in effect acting as the foundation for the truth of the statement which as I'm convinced you're a fine upstanding aikidoka I'm going to accept at face value.

It wasn't so much the fact that multiple attackers can be defeated, but the "evidence" provided which provoked Roman's mirthful response - Roman you horrible little kyu grade, remember humour and martial arts don't mix :rolleyes:

Roman Kremianski
01-08-2008, 02:25 PM
I don''t remember calling anyone here a liar. An old dude beating up 3 burly bouncers DOES sound like something out of Karate Kid. It's the first thing that came to my mind. I have this funny feeling many will agree. And it's also kinda humorous on it's own, once you get over the Aikido pride and the insulted Aikidoka with a chip on their shoulder.

The beauty of the keystroke? I am using my real full name here, along with me real dojo.Yes, I'm 3rd kyu in Aikido. I trained in Aikido for 2.5 years and that's the rank I achieved. Shortly following that, I left to experience other arts. Nothing really to hide there, as a simple google search of my dojo and a glance at our grading list will tell you. I hold no significance in the Aikido world, just a pocket of my personal experience that I sometimes share under my real identity on a respectable internet forum. Everything that comes out of me is the opinion of a young college student, not a shihan...since when did you have to hold a certain kyu before you can comment?

Stories don't impress me. I spar with guys who've knocked opponents out while competing in professional MMA. I hold no significance in that world either, just like in Aikido, I dove in as a young guy to learn and suck up the knowledge around me. Here is a story: I got 5 stitches bellow the right eyebrow after getting slammed by a skilled wrestler. Learned a lot from it.

So yes, there are real situations, and there are stories, but that's still all they are. People here need to relax.

Why am I still here? Because I've trained in Aikido, am interested in Aikido, and am curious about the opinions of other Aikidoka. If I really didn't care, I'd just be on Bullshido.

"Video or it didn't happen" isn't the end all...but it really is one step above "A friend of mine told me..."

Will Prusner
01-08-2008, 03:00 PM
ah, actually, any of the more informed sites pretty much concluded that type of claim is bunk. Check aikidojournal.com and e-budo for some reasonable threads on Ueshiba and any possibilities of him actually training in Chinese arts while in Manchuria.

Thanks for clearing that up and for the suggested reading.
I stand corrected.:sorry: :)

gregg block
01-08-2008, 04:53 PM
I don''t remember calling anyone here a liar. An old dude beating up 3 burly bouncers DOES sound like something out of Karate Kid. It's the first thing that came to my mind. I have this funny feeling many will agree. And it's also kinda humorous on it's own, once you get over the Aikido pride and the insulted Aikidoka with a chip on their shoulder.

The beauty of the keystroke? I am using my real full name here, along with me real dojo.Yes, I'm 3rd kyu in Aikido. I trained in Aikido for 2.5 years and that's the rank I achieved. Shortly following that, I left to experience other arts. Nothing really to hide there, as a simple google search of my dojo and a glance at our grading list will tell you. I hold no significance in the Aikido world, just a pocket of my personal experience that I sometimes share under my real identity on a respectable internet forum. Everything that comes out of me is the opinion of a young college student, not a shihan...since when did you have to hold a certain kyu before you can comment?

Stories don't impress me. I spar with guys who've knocked opponents out while competing in professional MMA. I hold no significance in that world either, just like in Aikido, I dove in as a young guy to learn and suck up the knowledge around me. Here is a story: I got 5 stitches bellow the right eyebrow after getting slammed by a skilled wrestler. Learned a lot from it.

So yes, there are real situations, and there are stories, but that's still all they are. People here need to relax.

Why am I still here? Because I've trained in Aikido, am interested in Aikido, and am curious about the opinions of other Aikidoka. If I really didn't care, I'd just be on Bullshido.

"Video or it didn't happen" isn't the end all...but it really is one step above "A friend of mine told me..."

Good for you Roman. I for one frequently enjoy your posts and humor. Kind of refreshing to me

Infantryman1990
01-08-2008, 09:30 PM
The only story that immediately came to my mind reading this thread, was the story of Terry Dobson working as a bouncer, disarming a drunk wielding a chainsaw.

In gassho,

Mark

The late Terry Dobson also had a story that after 10 years of Aikido under O' Sensei, "Mr. Impeccable" (as he called himself while telling the story) found his building caught fire in New York. In his one hand he grabbed a salt shaker, in the other a pepper shaker, and ran downstairs.

His gi, his typewriter, everything was destroyed.

His point: you never know how you're going to respond in a crisis.

crbateman
01-08-2008, 09:48 PM
The late Terry Dobson also had a story that after 10 years of Aikido under O' Sensei, "Mr. Impeccable" (as he called himself while telling the story) found his building caught fire in New York. In his one hand he grabbed a salt shaker, in the other a pepper shaker, and ran downstairs.

His gi, his typewriter, everything was destroyed.

His point: you never know how you're going to respond in a crisis.A man's gotta eat... :D

batemanb
01-09-2008, 12:54 AM
....., but atemi,atemi,geri and more atemi, sure kept both of us standing.

Geri, that can be troublesome, usually keeps me seated! Find it a good idea to keep some imodium in my pocket :D.

nagoyajoe
01-09-2008, 02:01 AM
Very funny Mr. Bateman! I needed to smile after a day like today! Thanks!

BK Barker
01-09-2008, 06:02 AM
You know I am a lowly yellow belt and can't hold a candle to many that post on this site but I am also a straight forward, honest, to the point practical guy. I have seen many posts in this thread that I agree with but for the life of me I can not think of any reason for a post like this only to serve malice and try to smear something/someone. If someone wants to leave something whether it be a job, a town, or a martial art they are an adult it is thier choice they can move on with their own agenda so if they offer it shake their hand and wish them luck and thank them then just let them go on their way.

As Lynn Seiser stated on the first page....

Then I bow back with a smile
as you bow politely
and leave the dojo.

I also believe this is one of the bests post's I've seen on this topic made by Gregg Block
I guess if I started with Aikido I might have felt as you do. Your a young man you should probrably venture elsewhere, who knows you may find yourself returning at a later time. Aikido will still be here and we will welcome your return.. Good luck

As for the originator of this thread I will say... thanks for your time and I hope you can find what you are looking for and have a safe journey... Good luck.

BK

SmilingNage
01-10-2008, 10:29 AM
Aikido has such a high attrition rate something like 9 out of 10 quit in 1 st year. It is no of surprise that threads like this get created.

What can one say, at least he gave it a 3 yrs it didn't sink in for him. Good for him for giving Aikido such a long grace period before bailing. I hope he applies this to all the martial arts he encounters.

Daniel Ranger-Holt
01-14-2008, 02:15 AM
The idea of aikido is not "he punches me, I respond with shiho-nage", but rather "through shiho-nage, I learn how to manipulate this shape of energy coming at me." To be sure, there are many in aikido who don't quite understand this distinction.
Yeah, the more i think about this post and my Aikido in general i think perhaps i just never grasped it well enough. I approached Aikido in a very "i want to learn street self defence" way. And even though i understood the centre point, speheres, etc etc. I think it just deviated away too much from what i wanted to learn which is quite simply..."i'm attacked, what do i do" energy and shapes and dynamic spheres, ki energy, slicing with wooden swords. I sadly don't think i ever really saw how this applies in a real life situation.

On the mat you can demonstrate perfect centre point, and downward spirals etc but i found in the mess of the street it's just not real. So yeh, i didn't understand the distinction, and don't have time to spend another two years learning about circles and energy. I want to protect myself.
The OP would do well to re-read Kevin L.'s post #60 and Mark M.'s post #63.
Imho if one truly wants to leave anything then they just leave, there is no need to let anyone else know. Imho those who make an issue of it and announce their leaving are actually looking for a reason not to, i.e. they are looking for a reaction from someone to tell them that there may be another option to leaving.
I think the point of this thread is not about leaving Aikido at all, but about attempting to warn people that many Aikido dojo do not provide what they say with regard to usable real world skills. I agree totally with this.
I still think that the OP went to an Aikido dojo in an attempt to get bouncer training.

I announced i was leaving to see if any others had the same feelings as i, and to almost help me as to if i was making the right choice. I'm not stubborn enough to disregard opinions of those who have had much more expierience than me. Of course i want to find other options rather then leaving, i spent two years three times a week. Wouldn't you want to seek other peoples opinions, who have more expirience than yourself before leaving a martial art??

The posts have been great, some people agreeing with me. Of course i know many people see Aikido as more than a form of self defence and almost a religion or something. I don't, but i'm aware some people would have got offended. Look, my actual name is up here, if i intentionally wanted to upset people i wouldn't have posted it on the biggest Aikido forum on the internet. I'm just saying what i felt.

As for the point of my thread, you got it right, the Aikido i have been taught, and the Aikido i have seen. Including countless videos, is not the art for me. It's great self defence when your being attacked on the mat...but i find the Aikido i have seen. (Thousands of videos of dojos all around the world online, about 15 dvd's and Casettes) wouldn't work for real. Unless, im finding now, it's drastically different, or other martial art techniques are blended in with that Aikido.

Of course many people say "at our dojo we train FOR REAL our techniques work" then that's fine, but then it becomes less about Aikido and much more specific to the instructor who is teaching that Aikido and then..is it Aikido?? It's a lot more easier to find something that does what it says on the tin, then hunting down rare dojos who actually teach the kind of Aikido i would be looking for. If it's anything close to what i've been taught or seen, then it's not for me.

Also harry i have never seen a real punch ever neatrilised by a shinage or yonko etc, ever. And i've watcher a lot of Aikido. Is this traditional Aikido you train in? or something else. If it is traditional Aikido, then i guess i have been trained wrong. Personally, ive watched a LOT of aikido, and i belive it's as simple as the aikido. It's just not nice to admit it. Took me a while to.

And no i didnt start aikido to learn bouncer protection. I decided to become a bouncer about a year and half in. I learned Aikido because something happened for me to want to protect myself. Obviously the job came along and then i thought it would be suited for Aikido. But found personally it wasn't.

Having a few simple skills and strategies and working on getting them down in an uncooperative environment in a few months is realistic working with those that have the same career need. Walking in to a traditional martial arts school which has so many other goals and students with probably even more reasons and goals, I really can't understand why it took two years for the OP to figure this out that the training wasn't what would fit the bill. Why he thinks another school built on cobbling together various traditional martial art moves is going to fit the bill either is beyond me. Yes punch and kicking is easier to pantomime and feel like you doing something. NOT a big revelation.

Are you just being plain rude or is this some kind of friendly sarcasm?? Regardless i will respond and assume it's friendly sarcasm as we're all adults here. Yeah, as i said previously, the best tool in being a doorman is humbling yourself. The amount of times ive been asked if i want a fight and will every single time reply "no of course not" or something similar, it works for the most part, simply humbling yourself. But occasionally people dont ask if you want a fight, they just fly in with a headbutt or a quick jab...and that's where MY aikido let me down. It took me two years to figure it wasn't for me because i was partially in denial, i was stubborn and didnt want to leave, and because i was told it will come with time. And it did in a way, but, not quick enough i guess.
Don't feel intimidated or angry against another another "art" if you're talking about Krav it's not my religion or my life, if i get bored or want to move on i will take what it gave me and move on. It's just damn good fun, and enjoyable at the moment. Barely a few months of lessons and my confidence has gone right up, as opposed to the unsure haze of Aikido i and other people have. And that was after two years. Krav isn't pretty and yea it's cobbled together moves from other martial arts, it's not even called a martial art because it's not meant to be. It's self defence. No belts or ranks. But the training is real speed, reactions are built up, something i never ever got from aikido in two YEARS and it's just better suited for me. Don't be mad about it my friend. TRY IT!

"Honestly, you sound as foolish as someone who expects to be able to write a novel because they learned how to spell and then finding disappointment, they decide the solution is to learn how to spell in another language."

Ok so you was beign rude earlier. But regardless, that...above? was awful. Do you even know what you meant writing that?? Say "no Daniel". Bow your head, and stop being silly. Let's strip it down. You're just upset someone disagree's with you about Aikido. Look at how the other people have posted. They might not agree with me, but at least they disagree with some decorum. My goodness sir, shocking. *shakes head*

So, I can relate to finding an art that isn't workging out, though I can also allow that it depends what you put into it. But, I do welcome OP to continue posting here. I think it's helpful here to hear all perspectives of people that practice aikido. If everyone agreed about everything and didn't question anything, it would get dull pretty quickly . . .
^^ There we go Mr hocker.

A few questions I have, you do not have to answer if you do not care to. Why do you want to be a "Bouncer" ?
Because the money is very very good for a short amount of hours. Freeing up my days to spend more time with my daughter and to persue my hobbies and music. Nothing more. Plus i got tired of 9 years behind a desk and wanted something completely different.
Why do you train at a church-based Aikido club and want to be Bouncer in a bar?
Church based has nothing to do with it, it's just the hall they hire out my friend. As to the rest of this question, please refer to my answer above.
Your Sensei ,according to the website, does not have any experience in this type of occupation, why did you choose this dojo?
Because it was the closest one to me. I rang, explained i wanted to learn self defence for the street and went from there. I want to clarfiy again, this is not to do with how i was taught, i think its to do with Aikido in general. I accept there are offshoots and some dojos who teach a different kind of Aikido than the one everyone else has seen and been taught. I know this now. But in general, it was just the Aikido, not the Teacher.

Matthew wrote:
The dynamics of how we train in aikido, while principally sound, do not carry over as a direct dynamic of reality. This is why you find guys like me that study aikido for many years, then proceed to go out and get their ass handed to them by someone that could careless how long you studied aikido, or how you do a proper iriminage!
There are those out there that can demonstrate aikido principles in non-compliance..the problem is, it ends up looking like other stuff, and it the teaching point of aikido gets lost...so why bother?
Isn't this what i've been trying to say to people? and you're last point is spot on too.
Aiki training has weaknesses , such as constant emphasis on wrist grabs, compliance etc. Hoever, its strengths are tai sabaki body movement, trying to turn your opponent, ukemi, multiple attack randori, defence against knives, attacking the attack with you entry movement etc. The video supplied reinforces in my eyes aiki has answers to all those attacks. Away from Aiki, you can look at Geoff Thompson of the BCA, who teaches everything from fear control, to all out training, but even he and his peers will always return to traditional for the core principles. Cross training may be your answer, for punching as your back-up, or kicking or groundwork, but again i would keep Aiki as your core style. My own plans are to return to Aikido myself. Cheers!.
Really good post, funnily enough many students at the Krav Class said to me i will find some similarities in Aikido to Krav with some of the locks and holds, and i wouldn't have wasted my time in aiki. No one seemed to have a bad word to say against it. But still understood my reasons for leaving. Some of the techniques looked similar to Aikido except it was all done at full speed and less fiddly, and flashy..to the point. Takedown, done. Maybe in the future i will return to Aikido, who knows. But not for the moment, until i feel like i am confident i can protect myself. Then perhaps go back to Aikido as you did to learn body basics etc.
if you want your aikido to be more effective, you have to try and train realistically. If your dojo does everything slow motion, it's going to be hard to get much realism there. I am a big believer that if one martial art doesn't meet your needs or make you happy, go find another one. So I fully support your desire to go try different martial arts, I think that is a very good idea. But if you decide you want to come back to aikido, I would suggest finding a dojo where they train faster and more realistically. There are dojos out there that do. And last of all, my opinion is that the only way to make your martial art practise truly realistic is to actually use it in real life and learn for yourself what works and doesn't. It seems to me that you are already well along the way there. Good luck in your training.
Twenty four years?? lets be honest, if you're telling me Aikido works, then i'm no one to disagree. That's a long time, and ten times more dangerous than my job. It is interesting however that you note some judo techniques have needed to be used, and sweeps and such. None of which are studied in Aikido. So once again suggesting Aikido by itself (what i was studying) isn't enough. But...i have read your post and took in your words. Thanks for taking the time to write that.
You will never know this until you are in a fight... The mental and physical conditions (both the positive and the negative) that occur in a fight (not to mention the stakes) are impossible to faithfully reproduce in the dojo. You can train to be prepared, and that makes good sense, but only being is truly knowing...
Exactly, i hadn't had a fight (cept as a kid) until i started doorwork of course, and this is what promted me to post and change my "martial art" This is what im saying. So many people claiming this and that, but how many of them have really been in a fight or a scuffle on the floor or had someone fly at them. Its just so so so different to spending time on the mat in a Dojo bowing, it really is. That's why when the Police, or Army peoples post here i really do sit up and take notice. As who would know better about real life situations? No offence, i would feel more comfortable alongside them, then some fat old Aikido whos been plodding about for 20 years bowing on a mat. (I'm podgy myself, i can say that)
I've never had that problem. I am total Aikido. No additives, no supplements, no preservatives. I insist that I learn all my self-defense the aikido way and have been very satisfied.
Perhaps it's because I only have experience with Shodokan, (Tomiki), Aikido.
In my dojo within the first 3 weeks I was thrown into multiple attackers, free style, tanto randori. (That means alternating attacks with fake knives by two attackers for those of you who are unsure). The free style ment any attack was valid -- slashing, overhand stabs, underhand stabs, angles, etc. I did okay. Yes I got stabbed a coulple of times...by the intial attack or by the other attacker when I had successfully subdued the initial attacker. (Very Hhumbling)..
The point is and the point my instructor was trying to make is that my aikido needs to be tested at as near full speed uke and I could safely get.
This sounds like the Dojo i should have walked into. If it was, i'd probably still be there now. Is this style of Aikido what some people refer to as the "sport" aikido? sorry if i sound dumb on this, i know nothing of it. Someone else suggested this to me as well. I may have a peek at that as well in the future.
Aikido has such a high attrition rate something like 9 out of 10 quit in 1 st year. It is no of surprise that threads like this get created..
The time i was there i lost count of the amount of people who came and went, seriously. Although i'm not sure how many other martial arts this applies to. But, some are local people i speak to and they explain their reasons for leaving, and they are the same as mine, except they were sensible enough to leave early. Where i plodded on, stubbornly. Once guy said "to much philosophy, sticks and wrist grabs i just want to stop someone taking a swing at me" He does Krav now.

Just to end it, Here is something important i feel. I would rather take on an opponent who is insisting on a fight, with my few months of Krav training right now, then i ever would with my Two Years of Aikido. And i really am sorry to say that, but it's my expierience. It's not even about the Krav, change krav to Boxing, Muay Thai, Tae Kwondo etc. It's just the Aikido...or zzz my aikido. Not saying i would defeat this oppenent, chances are i wouldn't but i can guarantee personally i'd have a damn better chance then i would waiting around to throw a wrist lock or Iriminage on the guy.

Cheers...sorry bout the long post. I dont get as much internet time as i'd like. And thanks guys for the discussion.

L. Camejo
01-14-2008, 06:06 AM
I announced i was leaving to see if any others had the same feelings as i, and to almost help me as to if i was making the right choice. I'm not stubborn enough to disregard opinions of those who have had much more expierience than me. Of course i want to find other options rather then leaving, i spent two years three times a week.I agree that you should leave Aikido, or at least whatever Aikido dojo you're studying at now. It is obviously not meeting your needs.Wouldn't you want to seek other peoples opinions, who have more expirience than yourself before leaving a martial art??Actually, no. I would seek information from those more experienced before starting the martial art. When I leave I just leave as the decision has been made.some people agreeing with me. Of course i know many people see Aikido as more than a form of self defence and almost a religion or something.Not sure if you're referring to me here, but it's not a religion for us. In fact we are probably one of the most un-philosophical Aikido methods around.:) However I will severely question anyone who makes incorrect blanket claims about something that I take very seriously.As for the point of my thread, you got it right, the Aikido i have been taught, and the Aikido i have seen. Including countless videos, is not the art for me. It's great self defence when your being attacked on the mat...but i find the Aikido i have seen. (Thousands of videos of dojos all around the world online, about 15 dvd's and Casettes) wouldn't work for real.Sad that the world of today lets video, tapes and youtube replace what could be found out using common sense (which of course is not so common). Everyone I know, including myself, who have used any martial art or just pure survival instinct to survive when seriously attacked off the mat did not have a camera available at the time to film anything. Many will never know what the dynamics of any of the conflicts were, except for personal reports and evidence of the scars and bruises. Of course these same ones who do not know and have not been there will assume a lot about what training method is or is not good for self defence, regardless of what actually did work. Interesting that. :) I've personally found Aikido easier to apply in the street since (unlike Uke in the dojo) I really don't worry too much about keeping my attacker safe - that is almost entirely up to him.;)Unless, im finding now, it's drastically different, or other martial art techniques are blended in with that Aikido.It can be drastically different depending on the school and teacher you train with. From my own experience there are maybe 4 major schools of Aikido that could teach someone to viably defend himself. Within these schools you may find maybe 1 in 10 persons have actually had to use the art in an actual conflict. So the pickings of Aikidoka who are both experienced in and train in a method that is conducive to real world self defence is very slim imho. But when you find them you experience an Aikido that is quite formidable as a combat system and there are no doubts about effectiveness. And no, though many may believe this, one does not need to mix in outside techniques to have it work well. But this is an even rarer creature to find imho. From my own experience one can be trained to defend oneself using Aikido or any other method in a 16-hour weekend course, but the method needs to address issues that are critical to self defence and nothing else.Of course many people say "at our dojo we train FOR REAL our techniques work" then that's fine, but then it becomes less about Aikido and much more specific to the instructor who is teaching that Aikido and then..is it Aikido??You'll find that almost everything about the Aikido you learn comes down to the Instructor. The rest is up to you. Whether it's Aikido or not really depends on whether your Instructor actually knows Aikido and more importantly how to apply its principles to actual combat in this case.It's a lot more easier to find something that does what it says on the tin, then hunting down rare dojos who actually teach the kind of Aikido i would be looking for. If it's anything close to what i've been taught or seen, then it's not for me.From what you have said, the martial Aikido schools will probably not look anything like what you have seen, but they will be Aikido as long as the principles are there. I agree that it is easier to find something that does what is says on the tin. However what no one tells you is that what's in the tin only tastes good if you know how to prepare it well.;)Also harry i have never seen a real punch ever neatrilised by a shinage or yonko etc, ever. And i've watcher a lot of Aikido. Is this traditional Aikido you train in? or something else.Not sure if you're still talking to me but if you are, the name is Larry. :)

The thing is one does not attempt to make the technique work on a particular attack (i.e. force the technique upon the attacker), but rather the technique must match the energy and direction of the attack for it to make sense. Shihonage can work with a "real punch" (I'm assuming this to be something like a hook/sucker punch), but that has more to do with how one sets up the waza and breaks the attacker's balance. A lot depends on how you evade the initial attack and then use your new position to break the balance of the attacker and use his momentum to assist your waza. If you're working against his motion then any waza will be difficult.If it is traditional Aikido, then i guess i have been trained wrong. Personally, ive watched a LOT of aikido, and i belive it's as simple as the aikido. It's just not nice to admit it. Took me a while to.Not sure what you refer to as "traditional". What we do is Shodokan (http://www.tntaikido.org) (the "sport" Aikido you referred to) it involves a lot of training against a person who fully resists and fights back, so one quickly learns what works and why it works. As far as "traditional" goes, though we are not Aikikai, the Aikido that we practice is an evolution of what existed in the very early days of Aikido's development (i.e. very similar to Daito Ryu Aikijujtsu as taught by Ueshiba M.)And no i didnt start aikido to learn bouncer protection. I decided to become a bouncer about a year and half in. I learned Aikido because something happened for me to want to protect myself. Obviously the job came along and then i thought it would be suited for Aikido. But found personally it wasn't.My apologies for an incorrect assumption. However I beg you to take a look at the author mentioned in my first post. It may shed some light on things - Bouncer's Guide To Barroom Brawling: Dealing With The Sucker Puncher, Streetfighter, And Ambusher (http://www.amazon.com/Bouncers-Guide-Barroom-Brawling-Streetfighter/dp/0873645863/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200314610&sr=8-1) and Real Fighting: Adrenaline Stress Conditioning Through Scenario-Based Training (http://www.amazon.com/Real-Fighting-Adrenaline-Conditioning-Scenario-Based/dp/0873648935/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200314610&sr=8-2). There is some very good information in those pages regarding working as a bouncer as well as facing real life attacks, regardless of the method you train in. The interesting part is that all of the major bouncers in this book, including the author practice a very martial system of Aikido and other MA.

Regards.
LC:ai::ki:

lbb
01-14-2008, 09:59 AM
The time i was there i lost count of the amount of people who came and went, seriously. Although i'm not sure how many other martial arts this applies to.

I observed it in three other styles, and I suspect it applies to every martial art worthy of the name -- that is, any style that's sticking to what it is, and isn't using gimmicks to retain students. Not making a value judgment here about who goes for it and who doesn't, but real martial arts will always be a minority taste. There's just too much repetition and too much practice, practice, practice. The average person nowadays doesn't want endless practice, and they want instant gratification and instant "mastery" which (okay, here's where I DO make a value judgment) probably explains the relative popularity of stuff like Guitar Hero vs. playing a real guitar, or a "martial arts" videogame vs. the real thing. Besides this, martial arts are time-consuming and not terribly convenient. In order to keep martial arts in your life, you have to be wired in a way that most people are just not wired nowadays.

antonis paps
01-21-2008, 03:35 AM
everyone worries what will happen in a real fighting situation..
well..i 've been there.. the truth is you cant tell..
and even if you do krav manga or something like that..
you will only feel better...but you wont be
you get better with experience..and thats the way it is
either you do boxing, .. aikido or whatever :)

justin
01-21-2008, 03:53 AM
i get the feeling you enjoyed your aikido however it doesnt tick the right boxes for your work, how about doing both something for your work, and something you enjoy aikido

just a thought

nagoyajoe
10-05-2010, 08:38 AM
I bet you're fun at parties.

You have no idea!

mickeygelum
10-05-2010, 10:13 AM
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: I'm Leaving Aikido

BYE !

Not making a value judgment here about who goes for it and who doesn't, but real martial arts will always be a minority taste. There's just too much repetition and too much practice, practice, practice. The average person nowadays doesn't want endless practice, and they want instant gratification and instant "mastery" which (okay, here's where I DO make a value judgment) probably explains the relative popularity of stuff like Guitar Hero vs. playing a real guitar, or a "martial arts" videogame vs. the real thing. Besides this, martial arts are time-consuming and not terribly convenient. In order to keep martial arts in your life, you have to be wired in a way that most people are just not wired nowadays.

I agree, I have stated the same to others many times.

Keith Larman
10-05-2010, 10:58 AM
http://summerchild.com/necromancy.jpg

Sorry, couldn't resist. Been guilty of it myself a few times...

Marc Abrams
10-05-2010, 12:19 PM
http://summerchild.com/necromancy.jpg

Sorry, couldn't resist. Been guilty of it myself a few times...

Keith:

Due you have a problem with resurrection? [Don't take the bait Luke Skywalker] :eek:

Marc Abrams

lbb
10-05-2010, 12:36 PM
Well, it is October.

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm62/DaDiff51/motivational%20posters/DeadThread.jpg

Keith Larman
10-05-2010, 03:29 PM
Due you have a problem with resurrection? [Don't take the bait Luke Skywalker] :eek:

What type? Christian? Hindu reincarnation? Nietzsche's eternal recurrence? ...

Nah, will resist.

No one has ever called me Luke. I have been called Anakin quite a few times though. "I declare, whatever do they mean?" I say with the most innocent looking face I can fake...

CarlRylander
10-07-2010, 03:52 AM
The idea of Aikido is so good that a lot of people would stick with it, I guess. Wiki says it's just gone a bit sloppy.

Icekler
10-07-2010, 04:24 PM
Even if you stayed in aikido, I would tell you that way of thinking isn't going to get you anywhere. Besides, you're a beginner yet, you don't truthfully understand what it is to use aikido. You seem to be searching for other things that you won't find here, but you didn't seem to find all that can be found here.

Michael Neal
10-07-2010, 07:36 PM
oy vei

Aikibu
10-07-2010, 08:01 PM
Freaking Cylons are at it again! :eek:

William Hazen