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tuturuhan
04-08-2008, 12:09 PM
The question is whether you escalate to a "live blade".

With my students, I teach the blade to my women students almost immediately. I wait a minimum of two years before I allow my men students to touch a live blade.

The issue is more physiological than psychological. A man with secrete greater amounts of adrenelin and cortisol when faced with a fight or flight situation. This translates to lack of control in the body and specifically the "male" right hand.

Women on the other hand are in greater control of their emotions given the lower levels of hormone given the stimulus of danger.

As such, knife with create greater perception of danger than stick. Yet, finesse a female quality is more easilly used in smaller more hidden circles. It is the weapon of an assassin and not a police officer.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Ron Tisdale
04-08-2008, 12:30 PM
Damn. Once again, my hat is off to you.

You are the officer I want coming into my house after the perp.

Best,
Ron

senshincenter
04-08-2008, 08:56 PM
The reason I wanted to stick to what was in the video, and why I wanted to make “space” for the content to not be so easily dismissed as irrelevant to Aikido, is because Chris’ videos still deserve comment. I don’t think they have really gotten that up to now and I’d like to be able to offer some opinions.

Here’s my take on things…

In short, and sticking with my analogy, one should work to move from cutting off the eyelids to hitting with a stick – moving from Bodhidharma to Linchi. I do not think it is a coincidence that Linchi had way more students that reached Awakening than Bodhidharma did (even if he did exist – you pick). To make this a clear point: I think once you get a taste for how something is supposed to work, and you seemed to have already gotten that taste, the next step is to see what makes it work as it does in kihon waza. For this, one has to return to Kihon Waza – to uncover the “hidden” aspects that are pre-settled in basic training but that need to be analyzed under spontaneous conditions in order to be fully understood. In particular, I would like to humbly suggest finding spontaneous conditions that are more conducive to fostering the following two things: a spiraling maai and the ensuing leading of the attacker.

In my experience, these two things are the foremost elements that make any aiki move a high percentage move – which in turn makes any Aikido tactic used provide you with a high percentage of surviving at attack. This only becomes truer when weapons are involved – which is a vital concern to real-life encounters. However, more importantly for anyone trying to gain a spontaneity that is Aikido in nature, the spiraling maai and the ensuing capacity to lead the attacker along this geometry is really what is vital to performing Aikido tactics at their most fulfilled level of manifestation. This is what my experience has led me to conclude – as discovered when the intensity of the training is increased to the maximum possible and the limits placed upon what is allowable are reduced to as near as nothing as possible.

In my opinion, this could be the next thing you might want to try – not just doing techniques under less-cooperative conditions, but finding the spiraling maai and the ensuing capacity to lead the attacker upon that geometry under less-cooperative conditions.

Again, I offer this in all humility.

d

ChrisHein
04-08-2008, 10:01 PM
In our kaeshi waza video, I believe you will begain to see these things unfolding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i02Mkq0yrsE

In the practice we call kaeshi waza, we take a step back from our normal randori. The idea of this practice is to avoid using force to apply or counter technique. It is still a noncooperative practice, everyone is trying to avoid the throw/submission by movement and timing, just not using force. You can see a nice moment of leading and spiraling at 2:40 and 5:28, done non cooperatively, but not full force.

By lessening the pressure, using less force, strength and speed, more “aiki” movement arises. While this type of body being would be the preferred type for randori as well, pressure changes your “ideal” responses. Hopefully we will grow toward doing our randori like we do kaeshi waza, but it’s currently not possible.

It has been my experience that only familiarity with high stress situations can one learn to relax and perform “ideally”. By avoiding high stress attacks, with your attackers using brute force, and aggressive action, your are only prolonging your inability to relax under that type of pressure.

There are two classes at held at central valley Aikido every class night. The first is an hour of straight kihon waza. In this class we rehash what we had learned from the previous nights randori. There we look at the answers that the forms offer to the questions the randori asked. The second hour is spent on randori and free form drills, finding the questions that we will ask of the kihon waza the next class. We have just never put up any video of our kihon practice.

senshincenter
04-09-2008, 12:58 AM
It has been my experience that only familiarity with high stress situations can one learn to relax and perform “ideally”. By avoiding high stress attacks, with your attackers using brute force, and aggressive action, your are only prolonging your inability to relax under that type of pressure.

There are two classes at held at central valley Aikido every class night. The first is an hour of straight kihon waza. In this class we rehash what we had learned from the previous nights randori. There we look at the answers that the forms offer to the questions the randori asked. The second hour is spent on randori and free form drills, finding the questions that we will ask of the kihon waza the next class. We have just never put up any video of our kihon practice.

I'll go with the second paragraph first: Yes, I agree, this is what we found the best. We too use the basic class to set up and be set up by what we reveal in the live training environments. This has been , by far, the most productive way of training for us as well.

For me, regarding the first paragraph, I have not found stress inoculation to be all that fruitful - but only because it is more situationally specific that most "experts" would have you believe. For me, only the traditional "emptying of self" allows for relaxation, aiki, etc., under all high intense, pressure-filled, conditions. I'm not trying to get used to anything. I'm trying to lose the "I".

take care, keep it up,
d

ChrisHein
04-09-2008, 09:50 AM
I'm not trying to get used to anything. I'm trying to lose the "I".



This would nicely solve the problem. Losing "I" and all the unfortunate attachments that come along with it should enable one to undertake any kind of practice with a fully functioning mind-mind/body.

That goal is even loftier then acclimation though. While it is a goal of mine, I'm pushing it farther down the road (loud groans from the enlightenment crowd).

Thanks for the support David.

Dan Austin
04-10-2008, 01:08 AM
I'll toss in a pragmatic comment for those interested in boring old technical considerations. To each his own.

These guys have a good, very simple firearm disarm system involving pretty much one move for any scenario. The knife defense system is also similarly simple and worth thinking about:

http://www.wartac.com/default.html

There isn't much to the knife defense, it's a very practical idea, and that is to immediately attack and control the head to prevent further attacks instead of trying to control the knife. When facing a knife, fishing for controlling the arms is too dangerous because you can't control the attacker's balance and prevent continued attacks until after you've already secured the arm. This is what leads to repeated slashes to the arms and torso. The head is far easier to grab, and it's hard to keep attacking with the knife when your head is being twisted and spiked into the ground like football. This video is sort of similar in principle in that there is almost immediate head control:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq869VFbHZI

The old marker and and plain white T-shirt drill is a good training tool. FWIW.

MM
04-10-2008, 06:27 AM
Here's some interesting info:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=ZRygILt5NlY

If nothing else, see the end section where it shows actual knife wounds and lists actual people as victims of knife attacks.

From the middle, they point to this chart:

http://www.vrazvedka.ru/main/learning/ruk-b/fairbairn-01_10.shtml

Look for the Use of the Knife chart.

A cut on the inside of the arm, 1/2 inch down and you're looking at about 30 seconds before you pass out. And that's the longest timeframe.

Eh, anyway, this is more than likely my last post on this subject. If I haven't made my point by now ...

Mark

Ron Tisdale
04-10-2008, 08:43 AM
You have Mark, but I think David's point is made too...

He just shoots you. :D

Best,
Ron (and yes, I know the 19 - 20 - 21 foot rule. Apparently, so does David...)

tuturuhan
04-10-2008, 09:58 AM
As a teacher, over the last thirty years, I have taught many special forces guys. The other night, one of my SEAL student (Peter) came home on leave before being deployed.

One of my more high/intermediate students was put with the SEAL student. After class I said, "be careful how you name someone".

If you give anyone more kudos because of his "name" you fail to assess the situation objectively."

Later that night, I took aside my advanced "teachers" and said:

1. Be careful of giving (Peter) more "ability" than he deserves.

2. You "can" beat him with the empty hand.

3. You "can" beat him with the knife, stick, spear, or any of the other ancient weapons.

4. However, you can't beat him with a gun, an automatic rifle, or any of the other weapons "you have not" trained in.

As such, in all situations, "we must be careful of what we name something", not because of the name...but because of our imaginations.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

MM
04-10-2008, 10:27 AM
You have Mark, but I think David's point is made too...

He just shoots you. :D

Best,
Ron (and yes, I know the 19 - 20 - 21 foot rule. Apparently, so does David...)

LOL, uh yeah. Gun trumps knife unless knife trumps gun. :D

But, seriously, no, that wasn't my point. My whole point is that people are using a knife for training and they're being very complacent about it. You think anyone here would be complacent if someone used a live, sharpened katana and tried some "flowing" drills? How about substituting a live knife for those same flowing drills? The point is that the tanto isn't just some wooden unsharpened tool used to help "flow". It's supposed to be a safe version of the real thing to help assess your principles in motion and how they work. You move like you train. You react like you train. If you burn in hundreds of hours of complacent training with the tanto now, what do you expect will happen when you encounter the real thing?

Relook at that video and see the cuts that were made on a body. See the guts hanging out? You want to be complacent in your training about that? How about the 1/2" down artery running alongside the inner arm that only takes a slight cut to sever? 30 seconds without help and you are done. Period. End of life. Or a cut to the neck and sever the artery there. 5 seconds. Anyone think they can end the fight, call 911, and survive until the ambulance arrives with those kinds of cuts?

And that doesn't begin to cover the cuts/stabs/etc that are life enders, no saves. A tanto isn't just some tool to add to training to induce "stress", add "flow", or play with. Whenever someone picks up a tanto, the thought should be one foot razor blade designed to kill -- for both tori and uke. I dunno about other people, but I'd rather not have complacency in my training. My life might depend on my training. Ichi go ichi e. Once time, one meeting. That's particularly important in knife work.

Then again, I don't think I'm doing aikido yet. I'm more aikibudo right now, so YMMV.

All IMO,
Mark

Ron Tisdale
04-10-2008, 10:35 AM
Mark, David answered these points in an earlier post. Very well I might add. I think as a police officer, he is very well aware of what a knife can do. And nothing he said in his answers deserves the label of "play". There is nothing in his training that I would label complacent either. It is a different focus.

Please note that I am differentiating still between David's answers and Chris's answers. Though I suspect David may be where Chris wants to go.

I also suspect we may just disagree on this one. I feel David has answered your points and you do not, and that is fine.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
04-10-2008, 10:38 AM
Joseph, I see your point, and it is a good one. I am basing my estimation of David on more than just the label of Policeman. I am basing it on many years of interacting with him online. And watching how he moves, how he seems to train, and hearing his thoughts on these things.

Best,
Ron

MM
04-10-2008, 11:04 AM
Mark, David answered these points in an earlier post. Very well I might add. I think as a police officer, he is very well aware of what a knife can do. And nothing he said in his answers deserves the label of "play". There is nothing in his training that I would label complacent either. It is a different focus.

Please note that I am differentiating still between David's answers and Chris's answers. Though I suspect David may be where Chris wants to go.

I also suspect we may just disagree on this one. I feel David has answered your points and you do not, and that is fine.

Best,
Ron

There's always room for disagreement. :)

And, given some time, my thoughts will change.

Mark

Aikibu
04-10-2008, 12:12 PM
As a teacher, over the last thirty years, I have taught many special forces guys. The other night, one of my SEAL student (Peter) came home on leave before being deployed.

One of my more high/intermediate students was put with the SEAL student. After class I said, "be careful how you name someone".

If you give anyone more kudos because of his "name" you fail to assess the situation objectively."

Later that night, I took aside my advanced "teachers" and said:

1. Be careful of giving (Peter) more "ability" than he deserves.

2. You "can" beat him with the empty hand.

3. You "can" beat him with the knife, stick, spear, or any of the other ancient weapons.

4. However, you can't beat him with a gun, an automatic rifle, or any of the other weapons "you have not" trained in.

As such, in all situations, "we must be careful of what we name something", not because of the name...but because of our imaginations.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Interesting philosphy but it leaves me a bit curious...I can't speak for the SEALS but as a former member of the Army's Airborne Rangers and a Reserve Special Operations Soldier for 15+ years I can say we did allot of work with bayonets and other live blades. Of course they were no where near the Asian Knife Arts or Japanese Koryu in terms of thier syllubus but we sure knew how to train with live blades and most of us supplimented the Fairburn Sykes (sorry spelling) training with work in Silat which was bred into the curriculam from our brothers in the Phillipines Army and Marines...

My question is do you wait "two years" to train your "Special" Students with a live blade as well knowing most of them are going into harms way???

Just Curious :)

William Hazen

tuturuhan
04-10-2008, 12:51 PM
Interesting philosphy but it leaves me a bit curious...I can't speak for the SEALS but as a former member of the Army's Airborne Rangers and a Reserve Special Operations Soldier for 15+ years I can say we did allot of work with bayonets and other live blades. Of course they were no where near the Asian Knife Arts or Japanese Koryu in terms of thier syllubus but we sure knew how to train with live blades and most of us supplimented the Fairburn Sykes (sorry spelling) training with work in Silat which was bred into the curriculam from our brothers in the Phillipines Army and Marines...

My question is do you wait "two years" to train your "Special" Students with a live blade as well knowing most of them are going into harms way???

Just Curious :)

William Hazen

William,

Already you have heard opinions regarding "what you would want a police officer to do or not do" when entering a house.

Likewise, if you are teaching someone in the armed forces who will be in combat, you must discern what is needed given one's capabilities.

Most soldiers, most black belts, can't really defend themselves with open hand or with knife or baton. This takes years and years to develop "finesse in killing". Don't get me wrong like the gun anyone can pick up a knife and thrust with it.

What most soldiers need in combat is something simple. He does not have time to train everyday, year after year. So, "thrusting with the knife is appropriate". But, I would prefer that soldiers learn marksmenship with a gun. Its a matter of time and resources.

Now, once the guy learns how to be a "snipper', (i.e. breathing, control of the hormones, adrenelin and cortisol his trained ability to control his body gives him the ability to transfer his skill to the "finesse of the knife".

Because, I am daily, I have the luxury to slowly teach my students how to tame and control the secreting of the aforesaid hormones. Two years is an arbitrary number. In other words, the average man will not have control over his emotions and will have difficulty with "fine motor movements" (e.g. cutting with a scissors and doing detail work with their fingers) Women, on the other hand naturally are able to use fine motor skills. Statistically, women too will secrete lower levels of adrenlin when faced with "fight or flight".

The result is that I teach women the "live blade" almost on day one of their study with me and my men students have to prove to me during the "two years" their capability for finesse.

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Ron Tisdale
04-10-2008, 01:04 PM
Hi Joseph,

Is it "my men students have to prove to me during the "two years" their capability for finesse."

or

"my men students have to prove to me during the "two years" their capability for finesse under stress.

Best,
Ron

tuturuhan
04-10-2008, 01:10 PM
Hi Joseph,

Is it "my men students have to prove to me during the "two years" their capability for finesse."

or

"my men students have to prove to me during the "two years" their capability for finesse under stress.

Best,
Ron

Hi Ron,

Interesting thought. Do you put them under stress or do you relieve stress?

Do we learn from stressful situations? Do we learn from by taking away stress?

My opinion, is that we must do both. (You made me think...aha...and as such I got some dopamine. Thank you :)

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Ron Tisdale
04-10-2008, 01:11 PM
Quite welcome...though I'm not sure I understand the answer yet.

Let me ponder my question some more, and maybe we'll meet in a bit. :D

Best,
Ron

Aikibu
04-10-2008, 03:33 PM
William,

Already you have heard opinions regarding "what you would want a police officer to do or not do" when entering a house.

Likewise, if you are teaching someone in the armed forces who will be in combat, you must discern what is needed given one's capabilities.

Most soldiers, most black belts, can't really defend themselves with open hand or with knife or baton. This takes years and years to develop "finesse in killing". Don't get me wrong like the gun anyone can pick up a knife and thrust with it.

What most soldiers need in combat is something simple. He does not have time to train everyday, year after year. So, "thrusting with the knife is appropriate". But, I would prefer that soldiers learn marksmenship with a gun. Its a matter of time and resources.

Now, once the guy learns how to be a "snipper', (i.e. breathing, control of the hormones, adrenelin and cortisol his trained ability to control his body gives him the ability to transfer his skill to the "finesse of the knife".

Because, I am daily, I have the luxury to slowly teach my students how to tame and control the secreting of the aforesaid hormones. Two years is an arbitrary number. In other words, the average man will not have control over his emotions and will have difficulty with "fine motor movements" (e.g. cutting with a scissors and doing detail work with their fingers) Women, on the other hand naturally are able to use fine motor skills. Statistically, women too will secrete lower levels of adrenlin when faced with "fight or flight".

The result is that I teach women the "live blade" almost on day one of their study with me and my men students have to prove to me during the "two years" their capability for finesse.

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

I think I understand what you're saying Mr. Arriola but I am not sure you answered the Question....Most (if not all) of the members of the SEALS, Rangers, Green Berets, Marine Force Recon and the like are already trained to "operate with extreme finesse when under extreme duress." So I guess you're suggesting you "waive" the two year requirement?

Indeed I first become familiar with this type training during my time on active duty (and in fact more than 50% of our training was done under such condtions everyday I can only imagine what the OPTEMPO of all 3 Ranger Batts is today God Bless Them).

Second...How do you simulate operating under extreme duress with extreme finesse with a live blade and what are the benefits if the end result is still to kill/disable as quickly and efficiently as possible?

Under Duress wouldn't you want your students to "keep it simple" and focus on basic movements ?

Respectfully,

WIlliam Hazen

tuturuhan
04-10-2008, 05:42 PM
[QUOTE=William Hazen;203462]I think I understand what you're saying Mr. Arriola but I am not sure you answered the Question....Most (if not all) of the members of the SEALS, Rangers, Green Berets, Marine Force Recon and the like are already trained to "operate with extreme finesse when under extreme duress." So I guess you're suggesting you "waive" the two year requirement?

Indeed I first become familiar with this type training during my time on active duty (and in fact more than 50% of our training was done under such condtions everyday I can only imagine what the OPTEMPO of all 3 Ranger Batts is today God Bless Them).

Second...How do you simulate operating under extreme duress with extreme finesse with a live blade and what are the benefits if the end result is still to kill/disable as quickly and efficiently as possible?

Under Duress wouldn't you want your students to "keep it simple" and focus on basic movements ?

William,

This is a point of contention. What some people view as "extreme finesse under extreme duress" may not be viewed as extreme finesse by people like me.

Early in my training, I thought I was among the "best of the best". Later, I realized I had simply scratched the surface. I am now 52 years old and I am still honing my skills. Everyday, I seek to see something that makes me better, physically, intellectually and spiritually.

Fortunately, I had teachers who in their 50's 60's and 70's could still take out the "physically robust twenty-somethings". These are men (and women) who I continue to follow in concept.

Just because a SEAL, Green Beret, Marine Recon etc has been trained and given a "name" after a "one years" worth of training does not automatically make him a master. Just because someone has received a certificate or even a PH'd does not make that person automatically the leading expert. It takes a lifetime to hone the skill I am talking about.

As to your second question, I don't mean to be vague or to give you a "moral to the story" tale. However, extreme duress comes in many shapes and forms. You lose a job, you go through a divorce, your child dies, you cheat on your wife...you kill a man and his family by firing him.

An ordinary life alone is enough for us to learn the lessons of duress. However, to answer your question specifically, "you must get cut and you must get stabbed" to really learn the knife.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Aikibu
04-10-2008, 06:18 PM
Joseph Arriola Wrote...This is a point of contention. What some people view as "extreme finesse under extreme duress" may not be viewed as extreme finesse by people like me.
Understood and I agree

Early in my training, I thought I was among the "best of the best". Later, I realized I had simply scratched the surface. I am now 52 years old and I am still honing my skills. Everyday, I seek to see something that makes me better, physically, intellectually and spiritually.

Fortunately, I had teachers who in their 50's 60's and 70's could still take out the "physically robust twenty-somethings". These are men (and women) who I continue to follow in concept.

Me too... As Suzuki Roshi who once wrote a book on the subject titled in part "Beginners Mind"

Just because a SEAL, Green Beret, Marine Recon etc has been trained and given a "name" after a "one years" worth of training does not automatically make him a master. Just because someone has received a certificate or even a PH'd does not make that person automatically the leading expert. It takes a lifetime to hone the skill I am talking about.

I did not mean to suggest that someone who has graduated from one of those programs automatically becomes a Master. What I meant was that in order to graduate a man has to continually demonstrate the ability to perform any task under extreme physical and emotional duress. I define duress in this case as it was tasked to me. "To complete the mission/task at hand in the presence of extreme physical danger." This kind of training by the way is only the beginning. All graduates of these courses must continually demonstrate thier ability to operate under extreme duress or they are kicked out of thier respective units. I graduated from RIP( now called ROP or the Ranger Orientation Program) with 25 others. Three years later there were only two of us left with the rest getting injured or kicked out of our unit for failure to maintain the Ranger Standard. I suspect it is the same with any Special Operations Unit and may even be "harsher" since we are at War. Failure to perform is simply not tolorated.

As to your second question, I don't mean to be vague or to give you a "moral to the story" tale. However, extreme duress comes in many shapes and forms. You lose a job, you go through a divorce, your child dies, you cheat on your wife...you kill a man and his family by firing him.

I agree in part. I am going through a sudden divorce and watching my mom slowly die from terminal cancer. However these two situations are not causing me to experiance "fight or flight" syndrome and perhaps that is due to my previous training and demonstrated ability (as we say) to drive on to the Ranger Objective. Who knows. :)

An ordinary life alone is enough for us to learn the lessons of duress. However, to answer your question specifically, "you must get cut and you must get stabbed" to really learn the knife.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

That has been my experiance as well though perhaps not anywhere to the degree you have experianced and taught it. In the context of this discussion I am just trying to exemplify "Beginners Mind" and learn from you a little bit about your training methods and the reasons behind them. :)

Respectfully,

William Hazen

Kevin Leavitt
04-10-2008, 09:03 PM
Joseph wrote:

Most soldiers, most black belts, can't really defend themselves with open hand or with knife or baton. This takes years and years to develop "finesse in killing". Don't get me wrong like the gun anyone can pick up a knife and thrust with it.

What do you mean by "finesse in killing"?

senshincenter
04-10-2008, 09:26 PM
Regarding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq869VFbHZI

Here’s my problem with the video – stating it here so as to tie this in with the last suggestion I made to Chris. (i.e. The point about spiraling distance and leading)

First and foremost, the moves shown in the video are “big man” moves. The mass and force necessary to have them work require that the attack have less of one or both. For me, that’s no way to design a self-defense or a killing paradigm. For example, no one would ever advertise, “Join now! Come learn to defend yourself against smaller people!” Jeesh – who would show up for that?

Second, the moves, regarding police work, demonstrate by the tactical options chosen that a police officer is NOT a weapons-man first. He/she is! Rather than training folks to pull their weapons as a last resort, officers need to be trained that empty hand fighting is an “f-up” you try and get out of – so you can pull your weapons. Why? Because this is life or death struggles – not sport. For officers, in my opinion, empty-hand fighting is the last resort. Running into to someone, closing the gap like that, guarantees that you will at worst not be able to draw your weapons or at the best find yourself in the middle of a weapon-retention battle. Both are terrible options for law enforcement personnel.

For me then, not just as an officer, but as someone that carries weapons, this is no way to fight a knife. This is only the way to fight a knife when you “f-up” and you can’t find your way back to your primary strategies.

Regarding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRygILt5NlY

As I said, I agree with the position that the standard knife fighting drills – even the ones we “did” in our own video – are very far away from how one should fight a knife or fight with a knife. I stated this earlier.

However, the reaction time theory proposed in the video is completely flawed, as it only pertains to the reaction time of an officer that stands still and attempts to draw from that position. Standing still is NOT the way to fight with a firearm. Anyone that does that and/or only trains like that is someone, in my opinion, that did not move passed the basic firearm restrictions that are placed on the lowest common denominator officer in the Academy.

Additionally, the officers in the video are only using level one holsters – another sign in my opinion that one is not gearing him/herself for urban combat while wearing a firearm, etc. In our video, Michael is wearing a level three holster and I’m wearing a level four holster. We are getting our weapons out fine once we drop the arbitrary range restriction of standing still. It’s not the knife that is the problem in the video, it’s the standing still restriction that is making the “reaction time theory” look valid.

I have never argued that the knife is not a lethal weapon – it is, and that is one reason why I do not stand still, rush in against folks that are my size or bigger, or not be able to know the difference between real and fake knife usage when facing a knife in real life. Toward that same point, part of fighting with a weapon, say a firearm for example, is knowing how to keep the situation prime for its implementation. For example, take that last section where the officer comes in on the guy attempting a burglary. What’s with the walking right up and saying “Police!” – and then you keep walking into knife range and right out of firearm range – what?! Last time we came up on that exact scene – only it was night – our weapons were already out and my senior deputy literally – LITERALLY – scared the crap out of the suspect, “SHOW ME YOUR HANDS NOW!” He never saw us coming, and the odds were so placed in our favor because of our approach and positioningthat we kept the firearm as the lethal weapon in the engagement.

For me the video shows not the lethality of the knife but the ineptness of fighting with a firearm in police work. That’s no way to make a point but the one saying the officers in the video need to re-evaluate their training assumptions and the practices they derive from them.

Aikibu
04-10-2008, 11:27 PM
Joseph wrote:

What do you mean by "finesse in killing"?

Good Luck with that one Sir. :)

William Hazen

Aikibu
04-10-2008, 11:40 PM
Here's a vid of Frank Cucci SEAL H2H Combat Instuctor and used to be one of the best in the business,

It's just a basic drill Joseph but it gives you an idea of the kind of training some of us have done with live blades...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1F9SpwvMrg&NR=1

William Hazen

Aikibu
04-11-2008, 12:04 AM
Current School of Thought

http://www.moderncombatives.org/home/weaponsfighting.html

Hey Chris did you notice they mention the Dog Brothers...Very Cool. :)

William Hazen

Cucci credits Delta and the Ranger Regiment as pioneers in the current development of Modern Combatives in an article for Blackwater.

MM
04-11-2008, 05:38 AM
Here's a vid of Frank Cucci SEAL H2H Combat Instuctor and used to be one of the best in the business,

It's just a basic drill Joseph but it gives you an idea of the kind of training some of us have done with live blades...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1F9SpwvMrg&NR=1

William Hazen

What I liked about this vid was that the instructor kept a checking hand and also that he didn't let his inner arm point towards the knife. Even on the last exercise where he rotated, if the attacker suddenly pulled the knife backwards, the cut would be on the outside of the Instructor's arm.

It's things like that, that I don't see in Chris' or David's vids. Their attention to the cutting edge doesn't hold. If anyone rewatches those vids with a critical eye, they'll notices far too many times where the inner arm is presented to the knife edge, a falling uke's knife drags a part of the body, a wrist is exposed, etc. From what I can see, it's because the attention is more focused on getting an "aikido" technique and not on the knife edge. Sure, it looks good, but is it worth getting fatally cut?

Mark

Kevin Leavitt
04-11-2008, 06:58 AM
I think David Valdez has a different strategy/end state in mind maybe from a DT perspective.

But, yeah, I agree, if your strategy is to stay in the fight like this.

tuturuhan
04-11-2008, 07:15 AM
Here's a vid of Frank Cucci SEAL H2H Combat Instuctor and used to be one of the best in the business,

It's just a basic drill Joseph but it gives you an idea of the kind of training some of us have done with live blades...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1F9SpwvMrg&NR=1

William Hazen

William,

Now, compare this knife video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6tJoIf8SX4

Tell me if you can see any differences (e.g. range, finesse, mobility and killing movement)

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Erick Mead
04-11-2008, 08:13 AM
With my students, I teach the blade to my women students almost immediately. I wait a minimum of two years before I allow my men students to touch a live blade.

The issue is more physiological than psychological. A man with secrete greater amounts of adrenelin and cortisol when faced with a fight or flight situation. This translates to lack of control in the body and specifically the "male" right hand.

Women on the other hand are in greater control of their emotions given the lower levels of hormone given the stimulus of danger.

As such, knife with create greater perception of danger than stick. I find this fascinating, as an empirical statement I agree with it from my own observations. Adrenaline surge produces a loss of control. And yet a powerful hormonal response is necessary to mobilize the body's resources under threat. I find this aspect deeply interesting because of a few relevant facts.

One -- the measure of highest warriorhood, both East and West has always been put in terms of sincere and deep devotion -- a species of selfless love. This is as true of chivalric romance as it is of samurai cherry blossoms. SEAL training was mentioned a little while back in the thread. Recently the Medal of Honor was awarded posthumously to MA2 Michael Monsoor. His commendation is a preeminent example of this motivation -- he threw himself on grenade saving several member of his team.

Two -- The hormone associated with the physiological aspects of love and devotion is oxytocin. Females are more naturally responsive to oxytocin than males. Some of those who are interested in the physiological role of intra-muscular myofascia and other may be interested to note that these tissues do not respond to adrenaline, but they do respond to oxytocin. If substituted for the adrenal cascade through appropriate habituation, oxytocin mobilization in threat situations would not result in the same losses of control as adrenaline mobilization. Protective motivation is not, primarily, meant to destroy the source of harm, which can be as uncontrollably destructive as one cares to make it. This makes sense, becasue the object of the oxytocin motivation is to protect the other from harm. That requires far more care in order to place the subject of protection reliably beyond threat. Eliminating rivals for resources (the more purely male competitive model) is wholly different, and control is not necessarily a premium where sheer force will serve.

Third -- and this fits with the primary role of the irimi concept in aikido is that unlike adrenaline "fight or flight" -- noting the fundamentally ambiguous and uncommitted nature of this state -- there would be no "flight" involved in oxytocin mediated protective action. It is an unambiguously and wholly committed state -- it may not be "fight," but if "fight" it becomes, it becomes all "fight" -- until the subject of protection is safe. And for this to work, the subject of my protection can never be "me," per se.

O Sensei seems to have plainly emphasized this aspect by demanding that all aikido training be non-competitive, and by stating, in no uncertain terms that true budo is love, and that aikido was training in the spirit of loving protection. Protection of our opponent, even. It makes complete sense in this perspective.

Protection not defense -- that seems the key to this spiritual - motivational - hormonal approach -- (call it what you will). It is materially and physiologically different from the typical competitive or more stressed models of training. Not that we don't need those in some fashion to test where it breaks down and we know what to go back to work on some more. That does not mean it needs to be namby-pamby training either -- Mother Tiger acts in love when stepping between her cubs and harm, and batting her beloved rather roughly out of the way if need be, but you don't want to be on the WRONG side of that equation...

Michael Douglas
04-11-2008, 08:24 AM
This drill : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1F9SpwvMrg&NR=1 looks good if you do it like the guy on the right. Notice how his free hand is covering even when he's using his knife hand to circle the opponent's knife-arm down and round. His assistant isn't so careful so don't copy him. That looks like a decent drill for a knife duel once it gets into medium range and if you don't want to clinch.

This video posted by Joseph : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6tJoIf8SX4
is just some guy 'stabbing' a fella who has his arm stuck out. Not a drill at all.

tuturuhan
04-11-2008, 08:41 AM
O Sensei seems to have plainly emphasized this aspect by demanding that all aikido training be non-competitive, and by stating, in no uncertain terms that true budo is love, and that aikido was training in the spirit of loving protection. Protection of our opponent, even. It makes complete sense in this perspective.

Eric,

After WWII, "Draeger, a military officer, maritial arts practitioner and historian was put on a committee that decided which martials arts could and could not be practiced in Occupied Japan.

The revised Constituiton of the Japanese people specifically, stated that only "defensive protective force" could be formed in lieu of an offensive army.

Thus, all the more commonly known martial arts judo, jujitsu, karate, aikido owe their current popularity and safety from extinction to Draeger.

The point is that the "non-violence" espoused by many of the "masters" after WWII came as a reaction to the capitulation of their country.

As to the emission of hormore, my point of view as little to do with advocating one philosophy vs. another. My concern is more with the observation of nature and how it affects our daily life and in particular my practice of martial arts. Certainly, we must be vary of our social and political "beliefs, dogma, and prejudices" when we analyze said scientific observations.

As such, I have a point of contention regarding women and their perceived "non-violent" propensities. In fact, the female of the species all through out nature does most of the "hunting" and thus most of the killing in nature.

But, nonetheless, we have found many points of agreement regarding the physiology, and how it affects our martial arts.

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

ChrisHein
04-11-2008, 10:11 AM
Here's some interesting info:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=ZRygILt5NlY

If nothing else, see the end section where it shows actual knife wounds and lists actual people as victims of knife attacks.

From the middle, they point to this chart:

http://www.vrazvedka.ru/main/learning/ruk-b/fairbairn-01_10.shtml

Look for the Use of the Knife chart.

A cut on the inside of the arm, 1/2 inch down and you're looking at about 30 seconds before you pass out. And that's the longest timeframe.

Eh, anyway, this is more than likely my last post on this subject. If I haven't made my point by now ...

Mark

Mark,
you're using some outdated info there. May I recommend "Contemporary knife targeting" by Christopher Grosz and Michael D. Janich.

All this theory is nice, but can anyone actually do it???

Aikibu
04-11-2008, 11:12 AM
I think David Valdez has a different strategy/end state in mind maybe from a DT perspective.

But, yeah, I agree, if your strategy is to stay in the fight like this.

Think about this for a second Kevin. This is just a simple hand check drill however break it down and you see a disabling killing strike in two movements check strike check strike

The whole purpose of a drill like this is to end the knife fight as quickly as possible which is what one should strive for in thier training IMO...

Take Care. :)

William Hazen

Aikibu
04-11-2008, 11:23 AM
Mark,
you're using some outdated info there. May I recommend "Contemporary knife targeting" by Christopher Grosz and Michael D. Janich.

All this theory is nice, but can anyone actually do it???

A good book Chris and... Been There Done That... With a few months of proper training to polish off the rust I could do it again perhaps... Though I think my reflexes have slowed down quite a bit.LOL We look forward to you sharing your knowledge and experiance in that regard when you visit. :)

WIlliam Hazen

Aikibu
04-11-2008, 11:33 AM
William,

Now, compare this knife video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6tJoIf8SX4

Tell me if you can see any differences (e.g. range, finesse, mobility and killing movement)

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

The guy looks very very good. :) hard to tell since the attacker is static but I think your vids and the others in this series are excellent examples of Irimi with a blade.

Thank you for sharing these Joseph. :)

WIlliam Hazen

tuturuhan
04-11-2008, 11:37 AM
The guys looks very very good. :) hard to tell since the attacker is static but I think your vids and the others in this series are excellent examples of Irimi with a blade.

Thank you for sharing these Joseph. :)

WIlliam Hazen

William,

I am the guy.

The point is that in Frank's video, he has space between his body and his opponents. I cover the distance to "zone" my opponents weapons (e.g. knife) to make sure he can't strike me.

Second, notice how Frank's knife leaves the body. It is inefficient. Once my knife touches my opponent's arm, it trys never to leave his body. In this way, I am hitting him with "killing blows".

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Aikibu
04-11-2008, 11:54 AM
William,

I am the guy.

The point is that in Frank's video, he has space between his body and his opponents. I cover the distance to "zone" my opponents weapons (e.g. knife) to make sure he can't strike me.

Second, notice how Frank's knife leaves the body. It is inefficient. Once my knife touches my opponent's arm, it trys never to leave his body. In this way, I am hitting him with "killing blows".

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

I thought it was you. :) I understand what you're saying Joseph about the difference in the two techniques but it's Apples and Oranges IMO. Again one is a basic hand check drill against an armed opponent. Believe me that Frank has very similar "closing" techniques... In yours you are demonstrating your irimi and "killing" blows...Can you point me to a vid showing a basic drill of yours using a live blade?

Thanks again for for sharing your knowledge with us Joseph. :)

We are on the same page...I feel the only way to defend yourself against a knife (if you have no other option other than your fists LOL) Is to enter and strike aka Irimi and Atemi at the same time...

A good reality check for us Aikidoka is to realize that unless you train with someone like Joseph you are bound to lose 99% of any encounters with a skilled knife fighter. thankfully 99% of us will never have such an encounter in our lifetime. let me tell you... being stabbed and cut fooking hurts..

I used to train hard in this stuff when my survival depended on having this skillset but now I am happy to end 99% of all the conflicts I encounter during the day with a smile and an offer to restore the harmony between us. that is why Aikido is so "effective' for a guy like me.

William Hazen

tuturuhan
04-11-2008, 05:16 PM
William,

If you are ever in the SF Bay Area come by one of my seminars. I'll show you in person.

Best wishes
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

senshincenter
04-11-2008, 11:20 PM
What I liked about this vid was that the instructor kept a checking hand and also that he didn't let his inner arm point towards the knife. Even on the last exercise where he rotated, if the attacker suddenly pulled the knife backwards, the cut would be on the outside of the Instructor's arm.

It's things like that, that I don't see in Chris' or David's vids. Their attention to the cutting edge doesn't hold. If anyone rewatches those vids with a critical eye, they'll notices far too many times where the inner arm is presented to the knife edge, a falling uke's knife drags a part of the body, a wrist is exposed, etc. From what I can see, it's because the attention is more focused on getting an "aikido" technique and not on the knife edge. Sure, it looks good, but is it worth getting fatally cut?

Mark

Where's the "train as you fight/fight as you train" slogan? Aren't these guys cutting each other's wrists/arms every time, taking it in the gut, etc.? Of course they are, but folks make all kinds of allowances for training purposes - because you have to. One should never be so locked into a training regime. To do so is to make it doctrine, and that means it will never be capable of addressing things at the speed of life.

MM
04-12-2008, 08:26 AM
Where's the "train as you fight/fight as you train" slogan? Aren't these guys cutting each other's wrists/arms every time, taking it in the gut, etc.? Of course they are, but folks make all kinds of allowances for training purposes - because you have to. One should never be so locked into a training regime. To do so is to make it doctrine, and that means it will never be capable of addressing things at the speed of life.

Hi David,
It's a good question, so I'll take the hit for this one. :) We all know that there are two sides to training -- uke and tori. As uke, we train to be smart attackers. As tori, we train to stay alive. So, in a two person training exercise, we are training both roles for each person. Let's take person A. Person A starts as uke, so they train to attack. As some of the vids will attest, and depending on the level of participants, Person A attacks in a smart manner. Beginners usually get simple, direct attacks to arteries, veins, major organs, etc. Person B does his job. Then Person B attacks and now Person A gets to train as tori. Staying alive means the knife isn't near the inside arm, neck, inside leg, major organs, etc. As both people progress, the training exercise gets more detailed such as feints, attack by drawing, simultaneous attack with knife and other arm/leg, etc.

ChrisHein
04-12-2008, 03:39 PM
Hi David,
It's a good question, so I'll take the hit for this one. :) We all know that there are two sides to training -- uke and tori. As uke, we train to be smart attackers. As tori, we train to stay alive. So, in a two person training exercise, we are training both roles for each person. Let's take person A. Person A starts as uke, so they train to attack. As some of the vids will attest, and depending on the level of participants, Person A attacks in a smart manner. Beginners usually get simple, direct attacks to arteries, veins, major organs, etc. Person B does his job. Then Person B attacks and now Person A gets to train as tori. Staying alive means the knife isn't near the inside arm, neck, inside leg, major organs, etc. As both people progress, the training exercise gets more detailed such as feints, attack by drawing, simultaneous attack with knife and other arm/leg, etc.

Sometimes in training there is neither uke or nage (tori).

senshincenter
04-12-2008, 09:27 PM
Mark,

You're preaching to the choir here. I'm all for that. More than that actually, as I think it is lowest-common-denominator/amateurish level stuff to not be able to adjust oneself from training to combat and vice versa. So, obviously, I allow for allowances due to the aims of one's training.

But my point was the contradiction. One either buys into the notion of "fight as your train/train as you fight" or one doesn't, especially when you try to adopt the position that training paradigms are inescapable. I don't buy into that notion. Hence, I can accept the basic nage/uke dynamic and also the give and take paradigms of Filipino training, etc. Just can't buy into the inconsistency demonstrated in your posts thus far, especially when they are claiming a greater insight into what happens when things get "real." There are ways of training wherein one could be consistent or at least a lot more consistent with the "train as you fight, etc." slogan than what goes on in the nage/uke dynamic or the various knife flows folks practice, etc. What you just supported above ain't it though.

d

Aikibu
04-12-2008, 09:56 PM
William,

If you are ever in the SF Bay Area come by one of my seminars. I'll show you in person.

Best wishes
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Thank you for the invitation Joseph. It would be an honor to learn from you. :)

William Hazen

MM
04-13-2008, 08:03 AM
Mark,

You're preaching to the choir here. I'm all for that. More than that actually, as I think it is lowest-common-denominator/amateurish level stuff to not be able to adjust oneself from training to combat and vice versa. So, obviously, I allow for allowances due to the aims of one's training.

But my point was the contradiction. One either buys into the notion of "fight as your train/train as you fight" or one doesn't, especially when you try to adopt the position that training paradigms are inescapable. I don't buy into that notion. Hence, I can accept the basic nage/uke dynamic and also the give and take paradigms of Filipino training, etc. Just can't buy into the inconsistency demonstrated in your posts thus far, especially when they are claiming a greater insight into what happens when things get "real." There are ways of training wherein one could be consistent or at least a lot more consistent with the "train as you fight, etc." slogan than what goes on in the nage/uke dynamic or the various knife flows folks practice, etc. What you just supported above ain't it though.

d

I think the Internet isn't doing us justice here. :) We're probably talking past each other. One of these days, I'll make it out there and stop by to visit in person. The closest I'll be this year is San Diego sometime in Oct-Nov. Not a given yet, but probably. I'll see what I can do to free up some time.

CitoMaramba
04-14-2008, 09:13 AM
I found a video of a police officer defending himself against a real life knife attack.. it can be viewed at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FOUn5qI6Ic

The attack occurs at around 3:12 into the video.
What was interesting for me was the officer's response. which was to irimi and control the head immediately, slamming the attackers head onto the counter.. after this he controlled the knife hand as his fellow officers came to his aid.
Here's a still of the instant of attack:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3236/2413001543_8044d74ca7_o.png (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FOUn5qI6Ic)

tuturuhan
04-14-2008, 09:45 AM
I found a video of a police officer defending himself against a real life knife attack.. it can be viewed at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FOUn5qI6Ic

The attack occurs at around 3:12 into the video.
What was interesting for me was the officer's response. which was to irimi and control the head immediately, slamming the attackers head onto the counter.. after this he controlled the knife hand as his fellow officers came to his aid.
Here's a still of the instant of attack:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3236/2413001543_8044d74ca7_o.png (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FOUn5qI6Ic)

Dr Cito,

Nice hearing from you.

(My novel "Journeys Within: THE PRINCESS ARISEN will be out shortly on Amazon.com and Barnes and Nobel)

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

senshincenter
04-14-2008, 10:46 AM
I think the Internet isn't doing us justice here. :) We're probably talking past each other. One of these days, I'll make it out there and stop by to visit in person. The closest I'll be this year is San Diego sometime in Oct-Nov. Not a given yet, but probably. I'll see what I can do to free up some time.

That would be cool - we'd love to have you visit. Thanks for the offer, please feel invited and eternally welcome.

d

CitoMaramba
04-14-2008, 10:52 AM
Hi Ginoong Joseph,
Sounds great! The title gives me an idea what its about. ;)
Mabuhay!

Cito

senshincenter
04-14-2008, 11:29 AM
Here's a different angle on knife fighting realism...

I'm only speaking here from California - other folks in the know regarding other states, please feel free to jump in, make corrections, etc.

My experience lends itself more to what I see in Joeseph's video. i.e. that is how I was instructed to fight with a knife by Mr. Michael Robert Pick. For me, the best way of using that technique is to keep the weapon as close to being an ambush weapon as you can - when you are the yielder. When you are not the yielder, obviously then, the best way to defend yourself against the best way of using a knife is to prevent and/or reduce the ambush. This last point can be related to my criticism of the foreig police videos posted above.

From this perspective, the idea of "fencing" with a knife can only be understood as a mistake and/or a departure from the best way of attacking with and defending against a knife. As a mistake then, one looks to correct it, not continue it. If one uses any of the fencing techniques commonly practiced in the currently well-known knife paradigms, one should only be using them to get out of that situation - not to stay in it, and not to try and push it into a victory, etc. The reasons for this is because one is dealing here with low percentages of survival and/or escaping without serious bodily injury, etc. For me, anyone wanting to talk about the true danger of a knife isn't also going to praise and/or emphasize fencing techniques and/or fencing drills over ambush techniques and/or ambush defensive techniques.

But, let's say you do. So you are on the street here in California, about to get in a real knife fight/defense. I won't make you go in there empty handed, leaving this to the "real" fencing techniques of knife fighting... Oh, like in training you are carrying a straight knife on your person - whoops! PC 12020 - dirk or dagger. Felony. Whoops here comes cuffs, jail, loss of career options, etc.

Okay, let's say the cops don't catch you with the dirk or dagger on the way to the fencing match. Your enemy attackers, you draw your dirk/dagger and away you go. Wow! you actually win. Cops show up: Oh know - PC 12020 again. Oooo - Maybe even P245 - Assault with a Deadly Weapon. Oh no - it's found out you carry that weapon for defensive purposes - oh man - it looks like the cops are trying to show intent, write everything in the report to see if the DA wants to slap you with Attempted Murder. Oh know - the guy dies - whoops, looks like the DA is trying to put together an intent for you - since you were carrying an illegal weapon, your train in its usage, etc., - is that a murder or manslaughter change coming your way. Man, the felonies are piling up.

Okay - you are not dumb enough to walk around with a PC 12020 weapons. But, are you smart enough to train for knife fencing with a folder? I have to say, not many Filipino drills, for example, center themselves around the folder. But, let's say you school does. So you have your folder, and you are attacked by a real criminal with a knife - a real dirtbag - whoops, he doesn't care about the law, that is why he is a dirtbag. He had a PC 12020 knife - dirk/dagger. His draw is way faster than yours - whoops, did you work on folder against a straight knife in your knife fencing school. Oh, you didn't, you are dead - ambush percentages lie with the illegal weapon.

But, let's say you got your folder worked in nice and good - I mean if flips open just by hanging upside down, or wow, you even sprung for an emmerson folder. and you are in the fencing match now - and wow, you actually win. You don't have a scratch on you - that guy is cut up to shreds. The cops show up - oh man - they don't like how easy your knife opens. They categorize it as a prohibited weapon. Oh know, you are on that same road again - the one of piled up felonies.

In California, the reality of knife fighting for civilians is this: Felony charges.

It is not too realistic or too fair to be instructing on "real" knife fighting tactics while being complete oblivious to the consequences of such training when it is implemented in the real world. No one I could imagine in the criminal justice system is going to say,"Wow, that goodness you had that knife" if you used it in a self-defense scenario akin to the one's similar to the Filipino fencing drills.

That said, in my opinion, only non-civilian personnel will most likely be able to avoid the pile of felonies. Particularly non-civilian personnel authorized to carry firearms, etc. I'll let the soldiers speak on this from their perspective, but again, I would say from a law enforcement standard, fencing with a knife or against a knife is not reality as a viable tactic but rather reality as a mistake in tactics one failed to employ.

What I would like to see is folks that are instructing cops on knife tactics - both offensive and defensive - to own up and say, "Okay, we are now going to practice stuff that you might have to do if you f-ed up on everything else I taught you about ambush, counter-ambush tactics, and the proper implementation of your weapons, etc., and what I'm going to show you should only be used to get your ass out of the mistake and back to the viable tactics of ambush, counter-ambush, and the proper implementation of your weapons." But this might be a problem, since, in my experience, very few folks that instruct cops on knife tactics know or bother to instruct cops on ambush, counter-ambush, and proper weapon implementation - and vice versa.

Additionally, let me ask the knife fencers out there. At your school, or with your instructor, are you ever instructed on the legal consequences of applying your craft in the real world. I know I never was when I dabbled in the fencing stuff. That topic never ever EVER came up. And yet, I doubt anything would seem more real than that smell of sweat, urine, feces, sperm, and alcohol you get a whiff of right when the jail out door opens.

(sorry, no time for proofing).
apologies,
d

tuturuhan
04-14-2008, 11:44 AM
[QUOTE=David Valadez;203705]Here's a different angle on knife fighting realism...

I'm only speaking here from California - other folks in the know regarding other states, please feel free to jump in, make corrections, etc.

My experience lends itself more to what I see in Joeseph's video. i.e. that is how I was instructed to fight with a knife by Mr. Michael Robert Pick. For me, the best way of using that technique is to keep the weapon as close to being an ambush weapon as you can - when you are the yielder. When you are not the yielder, obviously then, the best way to defend yourself against the best way of using a knife is to prevent and/or reduce the ambush. This last point can be related to my criticism of the foreig police videos posted above.

Hey David,

I'm glad we are on the same tract. Yes, I have thought a lot about the criminal aspects. I have been a lawyer for almost thirty years. :)

You are right. Do not fight with a knife on the street.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

ChrisHein
04-14-2008, 12:01 PM
If you need to use a knife (you have your own reasons for this). Then you have to use a knife.

If my choice is between dieing on the spot, or take my chances with the criminal justice system, I'd take my chances.

It is horrible that you will face prison time for protecting yourself. However facing, death, dismemberment, or the loss of a loved one is no day at the park either.

mickeygelum
04-14-2008, 12:02 PM
Re : Policeman vs Knife

The officer reacted quickly , especially for all the mistakes he made before being attacked.

Perfect example of why law enforcement personnel are seriously hurt or killed for failing to follow proper procedures and not using common sense. He should be thankful there was no lexan window between the desk and himself.

While the example is good, please do not fail to see that had the officer performed a proper search prior to removing the restraints, he would have discovered the concealed weapon. He was too complacent in his surroundings and is too engaged in conversation with someone off camera. He is bent over to remove the restraints, the arrestee should have been, giving way to unstable posture and loss of position and balance. If you listen he makes comment about "..no samurai swords...", should have inquired, "...any tantos ?"

Learn from this example, do not be one.

Train well,

Mickey

CitoMaramba
04-14-2008, 12:10 PM
Good call, Mickey.
The old adage holds true:
"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"

mickeygelum
04-14-2008, 12:17 PM
Mr Valadez,

Your Post #301...excellent.

Folks believe that if they are acting in the defense of themselves or another, they are justified. Little do they ever realize, they were committing an offense before the assault.

I arrested a fellow for having a knife, he was defending himself against a guy with a gun. Had the guy with the gun, not been so high, I would have been doing a homicide investigation instead.

Train well,

Mickey

MM
04-14-2008, 12:29 PM
Okay - you are not dumb enough to walk around with a PC 12020 weapons. But, are you smart enough to train for knife fencing with a folder? I have to say, not many Filipino drills, for example, center themselves around the folder. But, let's say you school does. So you have your folder, and you are attacked by a real criminal with a knife - a real dirtbag - whoops, he doesn't care about the law, that is why he is a dirtbag. He had a PC 12020 knife - dirk/dagger. His draw is way faster than yours - whoops, did you work on folder against a straight knife in your knife fencing school. Oh, you didn't, you are dead - ambush percentages lie with the illegal weapon.


The legal systems do vary from state to state. And yeah, I agree, sometimes a DA can be a real pain. But, as for the above, check out our school website. It has some vids on it:

http://www.albokalisilat.com/

We train in a variety of knives, weapons, situations, tactics, and yes, we get into legal aspects. It helps to have an instructor that has a LE background. :)

Mark

SwiftWind824
04-15-2008, 05:18 AM
Good Evening Every One :) :) !!!

Christopher Creutzig
05-10-2008, 02:07 PM
Mr Valadez,

Your Post #301...excellent.

I'd like to second that.

I arrested a fellow for having a knife, he was defending himself against a guy with a gun. Had the guy with the gun, not been so high, I would have been doing a homicide investigation instead.

Now, I'm from a completely different jurisdiction, so I may be asking really dumb questions: Does this mean that in the US, you can lose your self-defense rights if you commit a felony, e.g., by carrying an illegal weapon? IANAL, but I am rather sure that over here, the punishment for carrying that weapon would be dealt out independent from the use of the weapon -- and the question of whether self-defense was within the rather generous limits allowed by law would be considered without questioning whether carrying the weapon was legal. At least in theory, judges being human and all, but they usually try their best to apply the law as it should be done.

All the best,

Christopher