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graham
12-08-2007, 06:46 PM
Having experienced only Ki Aikido, I went to watch another style of Aikido last night and was surprised at some techniques I saw.

The Sensei was demonstrating a few Tanto techniques, and I'm sure that they were helpful as extensions of the empty handed versions. However, they were described as responses to when you have someone place a knife to your back when you are taking money out of the cashpoint!

I understand that the Sensei was simply trying to add a sense of realism to the class, but I sat there thinking that I would teach a different technique in response to someone who brings out a knife and demands all of your money. I call it:

Give Them your Frickin' Money!

ChrisHein
12-08-2007, 09:40 PM
Not everyone thinks the same as you.

What if he was planning on using that money to buy a gun so he could kill some children?

Committing a crime brakes the social code we all choose to live by, not resisting such an attempt is in a very real way condoning it.

It's easy to say "let the police handle it, that's their job". It's also easy to stand aside when someone kidnaps a child (the police might eventually catch them), or rapes a woman (the police will be by sooner or later), but not everyone feels the same way.

We all pick our battles, for some a few dollars are just that, for others it's the difference between eating or not, for others still, you can't put a price tag on freedom, and it might be worth dying for.

To each his own...

Don
12-08-2007, 10:05 PM
The real issue with knife techniques is that 99% of the time they are practiced slower than a real knife attack, and are taught in the way that other weapons techniques are generally taught - single comitted attack with insufficient control to respond into a second following attack. Add to that they typically aren't practiced on a regular basis and you have a potential recipe for disaster. On the one hand the technique you practiced last night might save your life. On the other hand, if you aren't used to continuous slashing attacks, resistance, and the reality of how easily you can get cut, then you might find yourself holding your guts in your hand. I am a big advocate of practicing with a practice knife that has magic marker on its edge so that people can gain a real sense of how they HAVE to control the knife and how easily they can get cut. In any event, it is always wise to remember that the guy who brings a knife to a fist fight has a huge advantage.

Amir Krause
12-09-2007, 04:55 AM
The real issue with knife techniques is that 99% of the time they are practiced slower than a real knife attack, and are taught in the way that other weapons techniques are generally taught - single comitted attack with insufficient control to respond into a second following attack. Add to that they typically aren't practiced on a regular basis and you have a potential recipe for disaster. On the one hand the technique you practiced last night might save your life. On the other hand, if you aren't used to continuous slashing attacks, resistance, and the reality of how easily you can get cut, then you might find yourself holding your guts in your hand. I am a big advocate of practicing with a practice knife that has magic marker on its edge so that people can gain a real sense of how they HAVE to control the knife and how easily they can get cut. In any event, it is always wise to remember that the guy who brings a knife to a fist fight has a huge advantage.

I fully agree about the practicing part, after a certain stage and in the right proportion.
Learning is achieved only with a certain success rate, achieved in a consistent manner, if one succeeds too often - he does not learn, but failing every time and for different reasons each time will also teach one nothing.

The teaching of techniques should be slow, to let everyone see all the details.

Continuous attacks and other "sophisticated" behavior on the Knife attacker side should be practiced. But again, the quantity should be carefully adjusted. A good teacher will also keep reminding his students that fighting against a knife means starting at a huge disadvantage.

Amir

SeiserL
12-09-2007, 08:45 AM
IMHO, (coming from an FMA background), some training in tanto is better than none. That being said, very few people train (or even understand) the reality of knife fighting. Some of our training is in learning the principles, not the practicalities.

graham
12-09-2007, 01:02 PM
Thanks for all the responses, folks.

I've just come across a piece by Dunken Franics that I thought some of you might be interested in:

http://www.aikidoauckland.co.nz/Blog/tabid/152/EntryID/19/Default.aspx

ChrisHein
12-09-2007, 02:35 PM
I agree that understanding reality in knife defence is a big issue. I've told my students that this is more like what a knife attack will feel like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s28eQuw9oI

MM
12-09-2007, 02:58 PM
I'm currently of the view that almost all of aikido tanto techniques are *not* valid for "real world" knife attacks. And definitely not against someone who knows how to use a knife.

Here's my repost from an E-Budo thread regarding knife attacks. How many do you practice against?

==========================
Just some food for thought ...

What can a knife do?

Well, obviously, cut. It cuts either pushing or pulling. So, an incoming blade might not connect on the initial attack, but it can cut on the retreat.

Stab. This is just a thrust of the blade into a body area. The nasty version of this is when the attacker leaves the blade buried in the body so that each time the body moves, more damage is done. Who has time to remove an embedded knife in the middle of a fight?

Pick. Perhaps not so "life threatening" (although it can be), but this is when the tip goes into skin a slight way and then pulls outward in a somewhat sideways fashion, taking a chunk of skin with it. If part of the chunk is an artery, it's not good. Enough successful picks can be demoralizing. That's a fight ender.

Core. Nasty little cut and can be very lethal. This is like coring an apple. The knife goes in and then moves in a coring fashion. Picture this little maneuver in the armpit. Just a second or two to sever the artery and death is 99.9% certain. How often do we think about protecting the armpit area?

Flay. An ugly little attack. This is where the knife starts a cut, is turned sideways to the body area, and then the knife is drawn along the body area. This detaches whole sections of skin and muscle. Picture the knife coming in, a block is used, and on retreat the knife flays down the arm, cutting flesh and muscle. It's very disconcerting to see a huge flap of skin and muscle hanging from one's arm, along with all the blood it produces. Very demoralizing.

Impact. The handle can be used as a blunt instrument. Hit a nerve complex, a soft target, or bust a knuckle, and this gives time for the next attack which will most likely be one of the above.

Traps. Either with blade in or blade out. Can be used to temporarily block/neutralize an attack while setting up any of the above. Blade out only requires a slight turn of the wrist to cut, etc. Blade in cuts as part of the trap.

A competent (not expert) knife fighter can do multiples of these in one attack. An expert will do multiples, but one or more will be lethal. But, still, never discount the amateur. He/she could do any one of them just by flashing the knife around while trying to cut you.

IMO,
Mark

Pierre Kewcharoen
12-10-2007, 07:33 AM
Having experienced only Ki Aikido, I went to watch another style of Aikido last night and was surprised at some techniques I saw.

The Sensei was demonstrating a few Tanto techniques, and I'm sure that they were helpful as extensions of the empty handed versions. However, they were described as responses to when you have someone place a knife to your back when you are taking money out of the cashpoint!

I understand that the Sensei was simply trying to add a sense of realism to the class, but I sat there thinking that I would teach a different technique in response to someone who brings out a knife and demands all of your money. I call it:

Give Them your Frickin' Money!

How do you know they won't kill you after you give them your money? Secondly how do you know thats really a knifte they are holding to your back? Could be a pencil.

For me personally, Id risk getting stabbed in the back, than opposed to them holding across my throat. But then again I would never let happen. (Being aware of my surroundings, never choose a shady area to withdraw money from an atm.)

And yes I have been stabbed multiply times before. So I know what it feels like.

Pierre Kewcharoen
12-10-2007, 07:36 AM
I agree that understanding reality in knife defence is a big issue. I've told my students that this is more like what a knife attack will feel like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s28eQuw9oI

If the guy doesn't have a knife to your back or to your neck, you should just run or grab something bigger.

MM
12-10-2007, 08:15 AM
How do you know they won't kill you after you give them your money? Secondly how do you know thats really a knifte they are holding to your back? Could be a pencil.

For me personally, Id risk getting stabbed in the back, than opposed to them holding across my throat. But then again I would never let happen. (Being aware of my surroundings, never choose a shady area to withdraw money from an atm.)

And yes I have been stabbed multiply times before. So I know what it feels like.

Sorry, but IMO, a knife at the back is just as serious as a knife to the front, a knife at the throat, etc. It takes a fraction of a second to cut under the armpit or inside the leg from the back, you'll never see it happen, and by the time you feel it, it's far too late.

Mark

Demetrio Cereijo
12-10-2007, 08:21 AM
I agree that understanding reality in knife defence is a big issue. I've told my students that this is more like what a knife attack will feel like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s28eQuw9oI

However i tell my training partners that this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibGyGG3X4PI) is more like what a knife attack will feel like.

Different pov's, i think.

Amir Krause
12-10-2007, 10:17 AM
I am not sure a static knife adjacent to your body is worse then a knife further aeay and on tis way to you. The first is clearly aimed as a threat, the latter still attempts at a stab.

In the first case, if money is all they ask for, give it, they could have been taken it of your dead body.
However, if the knife weilder demands you to follow him, things could still get worse, look for the best opportunity and fight for your life.

Obviously each here comes from a different place, thus the threat and concepts for S.D. are slightly different. The chances of a kidnap victim to end alive are very poor here, particularly if it is an act of terror (most cases with adults). Worse, his family are likely not to get his corpse or get any information of his situation for years. Robbery at knife point is extremly rare (except for elderly people) but if that is the situation - give the money away.

Amir

graham
12-10-2007, 11:05 AM
For me personally, Id risk getting stabbed in the back, than opposed to them holding across my throat. But then again I would never let happen. (Being aware of my surroundings, never choose a shady area to withdraw money from an atm.)

You'd really risk your life for money?

I can't imagine a) ever valuing money more than my life or b) ever really being confident enough in my own Aikido to risk my life on a technique that we rarely get to practice.

Nick P.
12-10-2007, 11:07 AM
Option 1: throw money at attacker as distraction, try to evade, call the police. As pointed out, they could have REALLY attacked you and taken the money off your corpse. In essence I agree with your "give them the money", because a dead hero is still dead.

Option 2: try and neutralize the attack, pin the assailant AND contact authorities at the same time, receive key to the city....

My wife took a cut to her chin when grabbed from behind while being mugged; classic one arm around the neck, the other with the knife at her chin/neck.
The cut she received happened while trying to hand over her handbag, and was likely not intentional. She gave chase (a basic instinct she readily admits to being silly), and luckily only got a kick to the stomach, after which the attacker fled.

To our knowledge, no children were shot with the $17 that was in her bag at the time.

You want to get into it with someone holding a knife AND has the advantage of already being at your back? Be my guest, just tell me which hospital or funeral home you'd like your flowers delivered to.

Nick P.
12-10-2007, 11:45 AM
But then again I would never let happen. (Being aware of my surroundings, never choose a shady area to withdraw money from an atm.)

And yes I have been stabbed multiply times before. So I know what it feels like.

How did you get stabbed if you would never let it happen?
Curious.

ChrisHein
12-10-2007, 01:53 PM
If the guy doesn't have a knife to your back or to your neck, you should just run or grab something bigger.

I agree 100%; as long as you have that option.

aikidoc
12-10-2007, 04:50 PM
I agree with Mark-most aikido knife defenses will gets you killed or cut up with someone who knows what they are doing. FMA do a good job-give me a kali/escrima stick any day. Better yet 2 if I have to take on a knife.

kironin
12-10-2007, 07:36 PM
However i tell my training partners that this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibGyGG3X4PI) is more like what a knife attack will feel like.

Different pov's, i think.

That was certainly a very polite way of saying that first video was very stupid and very far from reality.

Interesting that youtube required me to confirm my birthdate on the second video.

David Yap
12-11-2007, 04:21 AM
Hi all,

My honest opinion is reality training is 100% reality training and dojo training is just dojo training. SD classes should be conducted by trained instructors with the necessary law enforcement and military background. Tanto-dori and actual knife fighting are at two ends of a pole.

I have seen enough of armchair MA instructors passing off as SD specialists teaching flashy and fanciful techniques to believing students. These students would have better chances of staying alive and being unharmed being passive than using those techniques taught. Some of these students are so hyped up with confidence and arrogrance, reminding me of the kids from the "Cobra-kai". The difference is that these guys are men in their 40's and not teenagers from the movie. I know, I train with a couple of them who frequently visit our dojo. If you honestly believe that you fight the way you train and the probability that you will, I suggest then that you seek a well-qualified instructor with that background and in proper environment.

Just my two sen (that's USD0.59)

Best training

David Y

Pierre Kewcharoen
12-11-2007, 06:52 AM
How did you get stabbed if you would never let it happen?
Curious.

This was my pre-aikido days, went to go visit a highschool friend at a college and got lost in a bad neighborhood and got jumped by 4 gangbangers. Two of them weilding box cutters.

Pierre Kewcharoen
12-11-2007, 06:57 AM
You'd really risk your life for money?

I can't imagine a) ever valuing money more than my life or b) ever really being confident enough in my own Aikido to risk my life on a technique that we rarely get to practice.

Its a different feeling when you know the attackers are prolly going to do something regardless of what you do. Hell I got stabbed AFTER giving the money and complying. My buddy got whacked with a pipe.

After going through that, anger sets in, and then you get into somewhat of vigilante mode. Chased and beat the crap out of one of the guys with blade still broken in my bicep. Broke his nose and not ashamed to say that I enjoyed that immensly.

xuzen
12-12-2007, 01:43 AM
Having experienced only Ki Aikido, I went to watch another style of Aikido last night and was surprised at some techniques I saw.

The Sensei was demonstrating a few Tanto techniques, and I'm sure that they were helpful as extensions of the empty handed versions. However, they were described as responses to when you have someone place a knife to your back when you are taking money out of the cashpoint

I understand that the Sensei was simply trying to add a sense of realism to the class, but I sat there thinking that I would teach a different technique in response to someone who brings out a knife and demands all of your money. I call it:

Give Them your Frickin' Money!

More REALISTIC OPTIONS (TM) include (but not exclusive):
1) Leave as little money as possible (eg. a week's budget) in your cashpoint a/c.
2) If you physically need to withdraw large sum of money, get someone to go with you or do it online.
3) If you need to perform task #2 do it during the day time and if possible during banking hours.

These options when observed diligently you don't need to:
Give Them your Frickin' Money!

Boon.

graham
12-12-2007, 05:58 AM
Its a different feeling when you know the attackers are prolly going to do something regardless of what you do. Hell I got stabbed AFTER giving the money and complying. My buddy got whacked with a pipe.

Thank for the reply, Pierre.

I suppose that I am particularly interested in this because a few years ago, I could have been the guy with the knife, broken bottle, pipe... (I say that with shame, not pride.)

With all due respect to the great Aikidokas on this forum, I've never yet seen anything from anyone that convinces me its worth risking defending myself from an attack like this. Regarding the moves I saw at the other dojo, they just wouldn't have worked, not ever.

Esaemann
12-12-2007, 02:39 PM
Demetrio,
From that video, any suggestions on how to save yourself from that? Turning and running looks like a dead end too. The only thing I've learned (not practiced) is getting off the X (off direction of attack) while drawing pistol.

Eric

gregg block
12-29-2007, 09:13 PM
Krav Maga has the best philosophy for dealing with a knife attack in my opinion. Block, get off line ,hit your opponent hard and do all at the same time if possible. Trying to grab the weapon and disarm without striking is suicide. You need to stop the second stabbing attempt from happening if you are fortunate enough to stop the first. A better philosophy is to run and avoid this kind of situation if at all possible. If that means giving up your money and some pride so be it. In the scheme of things a small price to pay

Eric Joyce
12-30-2007, 02:29 PM
Krav Maga has the best philosophy for dealing with a knife attack in my opinion. Block, get off line ,hit your opponent hard and do all at the same time if possible. Trying to grab the weapon and disarm without striking is suicide. You need to stop the second stabbing attempt from happening if you are fortunate enough to stop the first. A better philosophy is to run and avoid this kind of situation if at all possible. If that means giving up your money and some pride so be it. In the scheme of things a small price to pay

Hey Gregg,

I agree. I have a Krav Maga background and still train in it. Before I started with Krav Maga, I had the aikido and jujutsu background. What opened my eyes and surprised me were the knife techniques. We would practice with fake knives, then we would try out these knives called Shock Knives (a little electrical shock to mimic the feeling of being cut) It didn't hurt, but you know when you got cut. Then the instructors would put on there bullet men out fits and we would do real attacks (usually involving verbal de-escalation drills and woofing/smack talk to try to intimidate you). It was challenging yet fun.

What I learned was that you can still use aikido techniques in those situations, but the key, as you have stated, is the use of strikes/atemi. Be it an elbow, fist, heel palm, knee, whatever, this is key in being able to position yourself so you can execute a technique. It's nice to see a kata osae shoulder pin in action or a hiji shime be put on ;)

I still think the knife techniques in aikido have their place. I believe incorporating other ways of attacking with a knife opens up those possibilities.

SeiserL
12-31-2007, 11:37 AM
IMHO, it is the blade awareness in the person that makes the difference, not the art.

gregg block
01-04-2008, 04:08 PM
As long as you don't become aware of the blade when its sticking out of your chest. Dealing with an individual who knows how to use a knife unarmed is a dangerous situation. Unless there is no alternative escape option it should be avoided. A good martial artist must know the odds, his/her limitations and the unpredicable nature of combat.

SeiserL
01-05-2008, 06:28 AM
We (FMA) used to say there were two outcomes to a knife fight; one of you goes to the hospital, the other goes to the morgue.

gregg block
01-05-2008, 11:49 AM
Yep. Though I was fortunate enough to avoid both places on one occasion. But after being lucky enough to avoid the first lounge I pu my wheels on and was gone!

Fabian Junker
01-05-2008, 01:44 PM
I was taught two rules about knife fighting/dealing with a knife in FMA:

1) You will get cut.
2) Don't die.

That being said, I think most martial artists still haven't been shown how fast and devastating knife attacks can really be by an instructor who knows what he's doing.

I like practicing knife techniques because it really helps with footwork, timing, etc. Can be a lot of fun, too. Still, I hope I won't get into a real knife situation ever!!

Chris Parkerson
01-13-2008, 04:08 PM
Techniques are techniques. Kata is Kata. Fighting is fighting.
Even Tomiki's film of his frays at Judo clubs looked more like Mifune Judo than traditional Aikido techniques.

The reality of fighting is that a knifeman at an ATM most likely will surprise you, take your balance from behind, turn you around and overwhelm you with force. His forearm will likely be placed across your neck in a manner that lifts your feet off the ground. Your back will be against a wall. His knife will be pointing directly at your eyeball. Now that he has your attention, he will let you down wile keeping your posture bent while you face the machine. His knife will be placed at your kidney or neck from behind.

Dojo techniques are great for understanding principles of movement. But they assume that the gunman or knifeman is unskilled.

Aiki is only one answer in grappling strategies. Cross training is essential if you want to "beat the streets". There is great wisdom in Silat, Kali, Escrima, and Jujitsu training if you want to focus on street situations. The aiki practice you do will always make your other arts more refined.

Misogi-no-Gyo
01-15-2008, 11:51 PM
I understand that the Sensei was simply trying to add a sense of realism to the class, but I sat there thinking that I would teach a different technique in response to someone who brings out a knife and demands all of your money. I call it:

Give Them your Frickin' Money!

I call it, Wake the "F" up or Quit Now! ...REALLY!!!

Do you really think that O-Sensei would have given up his money??? Not likely, even on his last day on the planet... Sorry.

.

L. Camejo
01-16-2008, 09:55 AM
However i tell my training partners that this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibGyGG3X4PI) is more like what a knife attack will feel like.That looks quite familiar. Good choice of video Demetrio.:D

Good advice, especially from Lynn on understanding the reality of what happens when one faces a knife attacker. Imho if you're thinking "technique" you're not thinking "survival" and would probably come out on the worse end of things.

I cannot agree however that one just "sit there and take it or give up ones money" since as others have indicated, there is really no guarantee that they just won't kill you anyway (at least where I live). There is a process that an attacker will use to select its prey. This selection will take into account certain things that they expect to happen. Break this cycle of assumptions and you can vastly improve survival chances. Assist the cycle and you can severely reduce your chances. Of course every environment is different, so one must be aware of the general crime trends in ones own back yard.

On Monday's class we were dealing with this subject and discussing the reality of being seriously cut/stabbed, the physical and psychological effect that different cuts will have and basically how long you may have to live after certain stabs or cuts are received. The following application of waza was most interesting when one realized that in x seconds unconsciousness/death would occur. A lot of wasted movement was removed. I can't say that nothing worked, but the critical change was not in technique but in mindset. For those who realize that being cut or stabbed may not be instantly fatal or disabling a host of options appear if you have the right survival mindset and don't recoil when you get hit. In this regard Aikido provides quite a few good tools to get the job done imho.

Just my 2 cents. What works for one person will not work for someone else, hence the need for many to cross train etc. Imho it's all good - whatever floats your boat. :) but technique is useless if you don't have the survival will to back it up imho.

LC:ai::ki:

Chris Parkerson
01-16-2008, 10:22 AM
The Border Task Force of the San Diego Police Department took the time to train many of us who were working in Tijuana by request of the Japanese Maquiladora Association.

We went through their ATM and Carjack scenarios. They were brutal. Surprising, overwhelming force. I did nothing to defend myself except once, I tried to create distance. I lost.

One time in mexico City, I had an independent taxi driver take me to a restaurant I knew well. When he took a turn I did not recognize, I quickly pulled a pen from my pocket and stuck it into the back of his neck, right behind his ear. Then we negotiated the route.

I teach survival skills to pilots at two different venues. One thing I tell them is to understand basic strategy. Strategy comes before tactics and techniques.

Simply put, (at the risk of over generalizing), a criminal wants as much as they can get as easily as they can get it. Everything you do is a negotiation. Sokaku Takeda, it was said, could determine the intent of someone from behind a door.

This is an easier task than some expect. If you have kids, you probably already have developed this Ninja-style skill. Let's say you are having a pool party. You are drinking beers, flipping the hotdogs. nevertheless, you know everything that is going on in the pool.

Take this skill and apply it to the street. Proactive avoidance begins at at least 50 yards out. So does the negotiation. Remember the dialogue in "Kill Bill", I want him to know, that I know that you know that i know.....

If they close the gap despite your nonverbal communication that surprise is lost, each action on their part is part of the negotiation.

It is scarry to just give up you wallet, and then walk behind the bushes just because they say so. There is no negotiation in that and they will most likely continue to take from you.

Throw down wallets are a decent ploy (under the right circumstances). Throw the wallet in one direction and run in the other. They get 3 dollars and an old expired credit card. you negotiated distance.

Aiki, to me, is really about strategy before it is about techniques.

Ron Tisdale
01-16-2008, 10:57 AM
It is scarry to just give up you wallet, and then walk behind the bushes just because they say so. There is no negotiation in that and they will most likely continue to take from you.

I don't think I have any problem giving up a wallet, but no way in hell am I walking behind any bushes afterward. If you're going to kill me anyway, do it in front of witnesses.

Hi Shaun,

I've thought about your post since I saw it this morning, and I've decided that I have no clue at all what Ueshiba Sensei would have done, at any point in his life, or even if it would be the same thing at one point as another. And as much as I appreciate and respect him for the art he created, I'm not sure I should copy whatever he would have done anyway.

Now, Sogaku Takeda?? I'm pretty sure I do know what he would have done...and it wouldn't be pretty... :D

Best,
Ron (not seeking to emulate him either...)

Elijah211Barr
01-16-2008, 11:27 AM
I think it was just an example of what kind of circustance you might be put in. How do you know that person won't stab you after you give them the money.

Ron Tisdale
01-16-2008, 11:40 AM
You don't. You also don't know that a plane toilet won't drop out of the sky and hit you as you are typing your next post. :D But if I were you, I wouldn't waste time worrying about it. LOL

Basically, we don't really *know* anything.

But that doesn't stop me from handing over my wallet when threatened with a weapon, with a somewhat reasonable hope that the person will take the wallet and be satisfied, more often than not. If I can set up an escape route while giving up the wallet, even better. If I can set up a counter attack while giving up the wallet, not quite as good, but in a pinch, you'll do what you have to.

More often than not, if someone wants me to go along with them to a secluded place, I'm going to be physically battered at the LEAST. Sorry, but I'm not going to willingly do that. :D

Best,
Ron

Chris Parkerson
01-16-2008, 02:41 PM
No one really knows what they are going to do in a situation until they have evaluated the odds of success in real time. Part of that process is the reading of the intent of the aggressor.

Perhaps we need to make a deeper study of "Haragei" -- roughly translated; the reading of someone's belly.

Reading intent is a skill we begin to develop doing Rondori. When freestyle sparring, intent becomes even more subtle.

I personally like working with real blades. Each of us Budo addicts likely have a 4 foot razor blade hanging around. Face off katana to katana and notice how much more your antennas come out.

Take your Bokken and try to tap the other person's bokken 1/2 inch from his or her front grip. Make this a freeform exercise. Throw away all ideas of style and how good you might look. Find a trusted partner and just go at it with the minimal amount of control that it takes not to do serious damage.

Haragei begins to emerge.

Rupert Atkinson
05-10-2008, 05:06 AM
From the moment someone demands your wallet, you need to be thinking about how to get his. OK - a bit extreme perhaps - just to make the point. I have only been in one dire-ish situation and, while nothing happened in the end, it did not end up like that by me being overly passive. Nor was I overly assertive, but I was ready inside - and maybe they knew it. Of course, maybe it was just luck.

rob_liberti
05-10-2008, 02:38 PM
It is somewhat helpful to think of your body a bit like a turtle shell where what would be the shell side (the line from back of hand to shoulder) is _not as bad_ for getting cut as what would be the underside (the line from palm to arm pit).

Regardless, the thing about knives is that once cut, the other guy typically just has to play keep away for under 2 minutes while you bleed and continue to weaken.

If you are going to take a knife when you are unarmed, the only realistic chance is to develop center on contact, and once you have that (how many have that?!) you need to make sure to grab the meat of the thumb as opposed to the wrist before attempting stripping the knife.

But that is still very stupid. Roll up a magazine, use a belt, a pen, a comb, a flashlight, throw your keys at them; do SOMETHING other than try to take that knife barehanded.

However, I say just invent wallets that explode when more than 5 feet from you and be done with it. :)

Rob

tuturuhan
05-10-2008, 05:56 PM
Defending Against the Knife Means Ignoring the Flower

The assumption is that I have no choice but "to fight". I am trapped in a knife fight. I am now on automatic. My brain reacts to the knife before my body...before I am aware of my decision to act...my mind knows and my body moves.

As such, prior to all "combat" I must train 1) for the act of particular defense and 2) for all other possibilities.

The flower may blossom into many shapes, colors and densities. It evokes a variety of "emotions" depending on the unsuspecting "victim". Fear, insecurity, over-confidence, and courage are all possibilities.

But, the expert ignores the flower and all its temptations to illicit "emotion". The expert instead uses his own "spade" to dig for the source of the flower. He attacks the branch and the root that "does not move". He ignores the flower that is the knife.

Instead of fleeing, he engages by "going into" the branch and root. He does not think of his strategy. He allows his brain and body to make decisions before he becomes aware of them.

He flanks the forearm and he penetrates the shoulder allowing the knife to pass him by. He is in the eye of the storm protected from the viciousness of the knife.

The danger is managed by "controlling" the knife and eliminating its source. He knows not to attack the fluid, changing, deceptive flower. He instead attacks the immobile branch and the root that he knows is simply covered with the illusion of earth.

He has successfully defended against the flower that is the knife. He has lived another day.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Chris Parkerson
05-12-2008, 09:18 AM
Defending Against the Knife Means Ignoring the Flower

The flower may blossom into many shapes, colors and densities. It evokes a variety of "emotions" depending on the unsuspecting "victim". Fear, insecurity, over-confidence, and courage are all possibilities.

But, the expert ignores the flower and all its temptations to illicit "emotion". ..... He ignores the flower that is the knife.

Instead of fleeing, he engages by "going into" the branch and root.

He flanks the forearm and he penetrates the shoulder allowing the knife to pass him by. He is in the eye of the storm protected from the viciousness of the knife.

...He knows not to attack the fluid, changing, deceptive flower. He instead attacks the immobile branch and the root that he knows is simply covered with the illusion of earth.

He has successfully defended against the flower that is the knife. He has lived another day.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Great post.

I have used a few instinctive drills that begin with largo mano and end at corto ranges.

Passing and meeting drills using full body evasion. We begin with a padded dowling. The student must read the body and intent (the root) and not be distratced by the waved knife. Range is range, learn it and trust it.

Then we move to a shiny dull knife. The temptation is to look at the shine (flower pedals are indeed deceptive if they catch your eye with color or bling). If you are distracted by the pedal, you are going to react slowly and out of sinc.

Then move to a real knife. Notice how the 1/4 to 1/2 inch range you have developed now has to be relearned because the knife is real. Rebuild your confidence and reduce the gap back to 1/4 - 1/2 inch.

Finally, get a riding crop. Do the same passing and meeting drills. This time, you are working on blending with a known range (the crop) without letting the sound distract you. The crop moves too fast to see. If you haven't succeeded in the former drills, you won't do well on this one. The crop teaches how to fight against an edged or blunt weapon at night and in the rain. In such conditions, you have to use all your senses to feel the range of the weapon.

tuturuhan
05-12-2008, 09:31 AM
Great post.

Finally, get a riding crop. Do the same passing and meeting drills. This time, you are working on blending with a known range (the crop) without letting the sound distract you. The crop moves too fast to see. If you haven't succeeded in the former drills, you won't do well on this one. The crop teaches how to fight against an edged or blunt weapon at night and in the rain. In such conditions, you have to use all your senses to feel the range of the weapon.

Hmmm...a riding crop. I like it. Though, you aren't being very traditional. You are a bit inventive. You are going to offend many. :)

Joe

Chris Parkerson
05-12-2008, 10:12 AM
Hmmm...a riding crop. I like it. Though, you aren't being very traditional. You are a bit inventive. You are going to offend many. :)

Joe

Perhaps this summer you can teach me how to ride the real knife like your students do. That was amazing. Knife and body doing push-blade with light touch at decent speed.

And I loved the way you used multiple striking full force attacks, with complete control - real blade to unprotected body, legs and arms. Teach me to extend my aura like that.

CSFurious
05-12-2008, 03:10 PM
what is taught in the average Aikido dojo with respect to the knife is a joke in my experience

the best training in connection with the knife is to go to Fillipino Martial Arts school or a JKD Concepts school

you will learn how to fight & defend against knife attacks

i also know that those Krav Maga students are pretty dangerous so you could probably train there as well

Buck
05-12-2008, 07:30 PM
Ouch!

Hey, what about the well trained knife fighter being undefeatable against the unarmed defender? The way the knife fighter's style wouldn't matter would it?

On the flipside for the heck of it, what about the poorly trained knife fighter against the well trained unarmed defender? Would it matter what the unarmed defender's style is?

What I was told Aikido had influenced Krav Maga. The cool thing about Krav Maga is, it's good because of the violent conflict it develop out of-good moves probably more for the average fight situation required to defend against. It is a great art because it is has to adapt to the other guys figuring out how to defeat it. Once the other guy figures out your moves you need new ones. Aikido's knife defensive developed kind of differently from Krav Maga, but kind of the same way too. I think Aikido developed from a more particular way of attack. You know like more straight on line attacks. Aikido's defensive moves came from a feudal time. Krav Maga is more of modern times in a different part of the world and then wouldn't it be different from what developed into Aikido?

I think Aikido would do fine against the average poorly trained punk with a knife and didn't know his victim knew Aikido. Isn't that the key to all fighting is the element of surprise?

Buck
05-12-2008, 07:41 PM
If your faced with a guy who really is very well trained in knife arts and is wheeling his blades, and he is experienced and knows Aikido moves too, and you know Aikido you have little options. One option is the quick draw combative gun training coming into play. If you are in a state that will not throw you in jail for braking a law because of using a gun against a knife.

What ya going to do?

Chris Parkerson
05-12-2008, 09:23 PM
what is taught in the average Aikido dojo with respect to the knife is a joke in my experience

the best training in connection with the knife is to go to Fillipino Martial Arts school or a JKD Concepts school

you will learn how to fight & defend against knife attacks

i also know that those Krav Maga students are pretty dangerous so you could probably train there as well

Most knife fighters (not "for show" knife owners) have more than one knife on them and are trained in how to deploy them quickly under any circumstances.

Is anyone training against multiple knives?
How about the juggled knife, i.e. you place a man in Kota and he flips the knife in the air and catches it in his other hand.
How about the knife that gets thrown at you as you enter mai-i?
How about the knife that is on a tether and is slung at you and retrieved with skill?
How about the knife that has no punyo. rather, one side is a knife and the butt of the knife is a dirk?

Chris Parkerson
05-18-2008, 08:13 AM
If anyone has seen the new movie Red Belt, you might want to study the bar fight (empty hand against the knife). It shows the fundamental problem with Aikido vs knife as Aikido is often practiced today.

The defender keeps his elbows close to his body, knows his critical distance, evades the knife with full body movement where the hands and arms do little to pass, meet or cross.

In most versions of today's Aikido, it seems that we are stuck on the extended arm. This is the death knell for knife defense.

If we review Munenori's sword posture, the arms are not extended like we do in Aikido. The hands are only about two fists away from the hara. This translates into good jujitsu posture when you take the sword out of the hands.

This is the most efficient method of controlling the knife once you get a grip or parry.

tuturuhan
05-18-2008, 08:47 AM
If anyone has seen the new movie Red Belt, you might want to study the bar fight (empty hand against the knife). It shows the fundamental problem with Aikido vs knife as Aikido is often practiced today.

The defender keeps his elbows close to his body, knows his critical distance, evades the knife with full body movement where the hands and arms do little to pass, meet or cross.

In most versions of today's Aikido, it seems that we are stuck on the extended arm. This is the death knell for knife defense.

If we review Munenori's sword posture, the arms are not extended like we do in Aikido. The hands are only about two fists away from the hara. This translates into good jujitsu posture when you take the sword out of the hands.

This is the most efficient method of controlling the knife once you get a grip or parry.

MTL, Chris,

Excellent point. But then, this challenges the structure of the house. Many with be unhappy with our observations.

Sincerely
Joe

Chris Parkerson
05-18-2008, 07:33 PM
if riai is the name of the game, it is just a matter of perspective.
Imagining that the forearm is the sword is part of the issue. That visualization would work fine if toy were striking someone. But if you are trying to go empty hand against a knife. Thus forearm should remain your forearm, hour hand remains a control tool (a grip on the imaginary sword). The opponent's arm becomes the sword. This visualization maintains Munenori's mechanics and improves leverage.

Of course, I notice you keep your elbows close while wielding your knife. You know the drill.....

Martin Goodyear
06-08-2008, 07:33 AM
Well I've never been stabbed, but I've lived in some pretty rough areas. I reckon that the vast majority of muggers just want your money and fast, so my habit was to keep not too much cash in my wallet (I sometimes kept excess in my sock).

Regarding aikido, I think that tanto defences are the single most significant element of aikido that discredits it as a self-defence art in the eyes of many. At least ki aikido has the excuse of being openly stylised, with the knife being just an extension of ki. Skilled knife attacks (so I've been led to believe) come like a fast zig-zaggy bush of steel rather than a tidy 2-dimensional line, and this makes 'stepping off the line' tricky.

I have played the topless marker pen game, and even managed a kotegaeshi, but not without receiving the Mark of Zoro! The disarms are probably OK, but not if you go looking for them. Instead, I reckon lots of atemi on Uke's wrist or forearm as it comes in, and also up the centreline when possible, to control/ hurt Uke. And lots of evading and making space. You mostly can't grab the wrist without being cut if the knife's sharp, so it becomes a bit of a survival game until an opportunity presents itself. I find my nice dignified hanmi becomes more cat-like, though I'm not sure if this is a good thing, and would welcome any tips from those well versed in this darker side of our art.

As to what I would do in a 'real situation', I think that no one really know without experiencing such situations, and even then each situation is unique. This is why it is so common for people to feel ashamed when they respond more passively than they thought they would. Others surprise themselves in the other direction - e.g. you might have an overwhelming sense that the person was bluffing, and tell them to 'F*** Off'.

Interesting subject,
Martin.

ChrisHein
06-08-2008, 12:28 PM
(I sometimes kept excess in my sock).

R

Now your secret is out! You better hope your muggers are not checking out Aikiweb these days!!!

jennifer paige smith
06-08-2008, 02:21 PM
MTL, Chris,

Excellent point. But then, this challenges the structure of the house. Many with be unhappy with our observations.

Sincerely
Joe

Mongols! Heretics!!!! AARRRGGGG:D

LOL,
Jen

tuturuhan
06-08-2008, 10:19 PM
Mongols! Heretics!!!! AARRRGGGG:D

LOL,
Jen

I prefer to be seen as a Visagoth. Attacking the Roman empire is something I would have enjoyed.

Best
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Stefan Stenudd
06-15-2008, 09:56 AM
When I teach tantodori, knife defense, I tend to get rather serious in class, and show the techniques in a more forceful and sharp way than usual. I believe that it is my responsibility, since a knife attack is something that can actually happen to a student "in the streets", and if they have learned sloppy movements, the consequences can be terrible.

So, I try to teach tantodori with this in mind, urging my students to take it seriously.
Still, we have to teach the aikido curriculum also in tantodori - and some of the techniques may be practical, but some others are certainly not. This, too, has to be pointed out in class.
Unfortunately, there is no general consensus to be found as to what techniques are the most trustworthy, and how to do them in the most trustworthy way. Our theories differ, as do our experiences.

Well, as with any self-defense training, the only thing one can hope is to increase one's chances. There is no guarantee.
Anyway, we should teach tantodori, in order to help the students increase their chances. If we don't, they are still likely to try aikido when attacked by knife, but their odds of making it are significantly smaller.

I made some tantodori videos for my YouTube account and my own website, such as this one with kotegaeshi against some basic knife attacks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8RipNS85bQ
Kotegaeshi seems to be the favorite defense in aikido's tantodori, among most aikidoists. Maybe we exagerrate its efficiency, but it has saved several people in real self-defense situations.