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Edward
12-14-2001, 11:55 AM
Dear Aikidokas,

I would greatly appreciate it, if you could express your opinion on whether you believe good manners and correct conduct are essential for the practice of Aikido, or not. If your answer is no, please specify what qualities you consider essential.

Hoping to hear from you soon.

Sincerely,
Edward

Greg Jennings
12-14-2001, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Edward
I would greatly appreciate it, if you could express your opinion on whether you believe good manners and correct conduct are essential for the practice of Aikido, or not.

With the understanding that what constitutes good manners and correct conduct vary, I'll go out on a limb and say that I think that good manners are very much at the core of aikido training.

I can't imagine loaning my body for training to someone that didn't respect me enough to display basic good manners.

My take is that someone that won't put forth the effort required for basic courtesy won't make an effort to train safely.

Regards,

Mike Haber
12-14-2001, 03:11 PM
Why yes Edward they are. That is why you should not be practicing aikido.

Take care.

Abasan
12-14-2001, 03:33 PM
You don't have to have good manners to throw ppl around effectively. If you believe aikido is all about that, then I suppose manners and such are not essential.

In the spirit of budo however I believe manners is part of the composite. It enhances your practice and would contribute to a harmonious relationship with people on or off the mat.

Besides, having good manners is great whether you do aikido or not.

Greg Jennings
12-14-2001, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Mike Haber
Why yes Edward they are. That is why you should not be practicing aikido.

Dame.

shihonage
12-14-2001, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Mike Haber
Why yes Edward they are. That is why you should not be practicing aikido.

Take care.

Keith R Lee
12-14-2001, 03:38 PM
Greg Jennings:
Dame.

What?

Keith R Lee
12-14-2001, 03:41 PM
Shihonage-

That picture was great. Made me LOL at work.

Greg Jennings
12-14-2001, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Keith R Lee
Greg Jennings: Dame.

What?

It means "No Good" in Nihongo.

Regards,

Mona
12-14-2001, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Mike Haber
Why yes Edward they are. That is why you should not be practicing aikido.


um...Not that it's any of my business, but that comment is not 'very aikido' of you.
Either that, or you're not an aikidoka, which is why your comment would not be a valid one anyway. :rolleyes:

~ Mona

Keith R Lee
12-14-2001, 04:22 PM
BTW Greg, if you ever have reason to head up state please feel free to stop by and train. There is a map at my dojo's website. Unlike other people who have visited the dojo at which I train, you would probably feel comfortable with "Shomenuchi kotegaeshi, ya'll." ;)

Greg Jennings
12-14-2001, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Keith R Lee
BTW Greg, if you ever have reason to head up state please feel free to stop by and train. There is a map at my dojo's website. Unlike other people who have visited the dojo at which I train, you would probably feel comfortable with "Shomenuchi kotegaeshi, ya'll." ;)

Thank you very much for the invite, Keith. I'll make it a point to get up there some time.

I can probably get away with it by having the wife shop at the Galleria while I visit your dojo.

Regards,

mj
12-14-2001, 05:48 PM
Hmmmmmmmmm

I'm missing something here, aren't I?

Anyway, never mind.

'Manners' are just something we accumulate as we go along in life/aikido. IMO.

Greg, you live in Alabama?
Do you know Auburn University? (long shot)

mj
12-14-2001, 05:50 PM
/Mark runs away to find other posts by Mike and Edward/

Greg Jennings
12-14-2001, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by mj
Greg, you live in Alabama?
Do you know Auburn University? (long shot)
I live and train in Montgomery, Alabama. Auburn University is 40-45 minutes northeast of me on I-85.

A friend of mine, George Reynolds, had a dojo at the University at one time. He's now at a community center in Opelika, the next town east of Auburn. They are an ASU dojo.

Why do you ask?

Regards,

Edward
12-15-2001, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings


It means "No Good" in Nihongo.

Regards,

Greg San,

I think you better say "Dame desu", otherwise someone could interprete this word in "Eigo" ;)

Best regards,
Edward

Greg Jennings
12-15-2001, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Edward


Greg San,

I think you better say "Dame desu", otherwise someone could interprete this word in "Eigo" ;)


Thank you for the information. I don't speak Nihongo; just dojo words.

However, I don't think anyone would have thought I was saying "An elderly lady". :)

Regards,

HillBilly
12-15-2001, 02:39 PM
I belive that it is an important part of akido like somone said in the previous posts you dont want to put yourselfm with others that dont respect you enoguh to show you good manners as it goes i rekon it is a character builder for many it shows them they are not the msot important person. Itn is important for the memebers below the sensi to be polite and have the right edicate to show they respect the very princaple of akido but also for the sensi to show respect and time for the "lesser" memebers if he shows no respect this may make akdio a lot less fun to learn and discourage for learning properly we pass on what we learn and one day we hope to have a dojo to teach for ourselfs if we are taught bad manners and edicate we will pass this on.Akido in princaple will be ruinined for all it stands for ....but that is jsut in my opinion.

HillBilly

Largo
12-16-2001, 09:31 AM
I would say manners are important. We are asking our instructors to teach, and we are asking our fellow students (senpai and kohai) to help us. It seems that working politely would make things go a lot smoother and quicker.
Also, if I was an aikido teacher (or any kind of martial arts teacher) I wouldn't particularly want to train rude, ill mannered people.
Anyways, right or wrong, those are just my thoughts.

Peter Goldsbury
12-16-2001, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Edward
Dear Aikidokas,

I would greatly appreciate it, if you could express your opinion on whether you believe good manners and correct conduct are essential for the practice of Aikido, or not. If your answer is no, please specify what qualities you consider essential.

Hoping to hear from you soon.

Sincerely,
Edward

Dear Edward,

Forgive me, but I think I might have missed something. I am curious as to why you posed the question. To me it is unarguable that good manners are essential on the tatami, as they are in this forum. Why would good manners not be essential in a dojo? I can envisage a sensei severely chastising a student for his/her own good (though I would do this in private), but are there any other occasions when deliberate bad manners would be beneficial in aikido practice?

Best regards,

Duarh
12-17-2001, 02:05 AM
Hlo.

Forgive me if I'm getting something wrong. . .but aren't good manners just about essential in any part of human communications nowadays? They even do it when at war, you know, even if it's just a pretense. ;) But it can make things easier

Duarh

Edward
12-17-2001, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury


Dear Edward,

Forgive me, but I think I might have missed something. I am curious as to why you posed the question. To me it is unarguable that good manners are essential on the tatami, as they are in this forum. Why would good manners not be essential in a dojo? I can envisage a sensei severely chastising a student for his/her own good (though I would do this in private), but are there any other occasions when deliberate bad manners would be beneficial in aikido practice?

Best regards,
Dear Dr. Goldsbury,

Aikido is in my experience one of the last MA to put a great importance on manners and correctness. It is true that all MA do advocate these values, but not anymore as a priority. Only in Aikido, to my knowledge, are practitioners’ manners and personality, not only in the dojo but also outside of it, more important than technical ability and physical prowess.

I am sure that in many dojos – and I hope in all dojos – students whose morality and ethics are not up to Aikido standards are shown the way to the exit door no matter how good and proficient in the art they might be, or at least their rank progression would be hampered in milder cases. One might add that it is impossible to become proficient in Aikido if one does not have morality and ethics, according to late Doshu kisshomaru Ueshiba.

I believe this is the main reason why many of us have chosen Aikido as their MA, as we want to practice in a good friendly and courteous atmosphere less evident in other disciplines.

I wanted by the current post to emphasize this matter and verify whether all Aikidokas are unanimous on this point or not. If we allow Aikido standards to slacken on this subject, Aikido looses its very reason of existence.

Thanks for your patience at reading this long post.

Best regards,

Edward

Creature_of_the_id
12-17-2001, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by Edward


I am sure that in many dojos – and I hope in all dojos – students whose morality and ethics are not up to Aikido standards are shown the way to the exit door no matter how good and proficient in the art they might be, or at least their rank progression would be hampered in milder cases.

Hi Edward :)

see, I dont see it as very aiki to show people the way out of the door for having bad manners. why teach manners and etiquette (sp?) to those who already have it? would it not make more sense to show those principles to the people who would benifit from it most?
the people who you would show the door to are the people who would benifit most from training in the way.

yes, it is very easy and comfortable to teach aikido to those who you judge to be correct in your own view. but is it not a very good way of learning self awareness, in teaching those that you judge to be 'bad'. to learn not to fight them or resist them by showing them the door.. but instead allowing yourself to show them acceptance and relieving yourself of personal limitations.

I will not show anyone the door in my class... all are accepted. yes it has been difficult at times to tolerate some people, but I learn different life based techniques in order to blend with them.
just as in randori you dont show someone the door because they attack you in a way that you dont like... that will get you hurt, you simply blend with it and it does not effect you.

anyway, I find those who 'act up' or do not obey etiquette even after the guidlines have been layed out either change their actions over time, or leave of their own free will.

my 2p anyway

Edward
12-17-2001, 09:45 AM
Hello Kev,

I do very much respect your point of view.

But I have a question for you. Greg Jennings wrote:"I can't imagine loaning my body for training to someone that didn't respect me enough to display basic good manners.

My take is that someone that won't put forth the effort required for basic courtesy won't make an effort to train safely."

Do you agree with what Greg said (I do), and if yes, would you risk having a dojo member injured? What if this guy's presence will force good members to change the dojo? Shouldn't there be dojo regulations for the members to follow or leave?

Best regards,
Edward

Creature_of_the_id
12-17-2001, 10:04 AM
:)
yes I do agree with what you are saying, and it can be a very difficult situation to handle.

luckily for me I have only had once instance in class in which a student has behaved in a VERY inapropriate manner. It was actually him that got hurt not the other person. he was trying to be arkward and resist technique and was trying to make the other person look bad. he got thrown despite his efforts and went off the mat swearing :(

he was not seriously injured, he came back the next week... (without any appology lol) and his training changed. he no longer tries to make people look bad and controls his temper. yes he is not the 'ideal' student. but through his experiences he is trying and he is changing and succeeding. I commend him for it.

I do admit, I was VERY tempted to ask him not to come back to class any more. But I am very glad that I didnt and I learned something from it personally aswell :)

yes this is just one case I admit.
but I do also find that when there are difficult students on the mat then there are certain people who enjoy training with them, and others who do not. some see it as a challenge and learn alot from overcoming the difficulties and others see it as a nightmare and avoid training with them.
So that person becomes involved with people who enjoy training with him and slowly (sometimes very slowly) becomes accustomed to te fact that you can only get so far with a certain mental attitude.
They are constantly reminded of this by their instructor and their peers. if they dont like it they eventually quit themselves.

another thought lol... I found that in most cases if you treat someone with respect then they will return it. if someone throws you hard or whatever and you do it back then it turns into a fight. if you throw them with a respectful intent then they find it difficult to pummel you.

I am yet to see a student leave the association because someone else is being impolite or disrespectful.

I am not saying it does not happen... I am just saying it is rare.
I do understand those who would choose to ask disrespectful students to leave the dojo... but based on my own principles of acceptance and harmony I would not choose it.

With love

L. Camejo
12-17-2001, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Creature_of_the_id

Hi Edward :)
see, I dont see it as very aiki to show people the way out of the door for having bad manners. why teach manners and etiquette (sp?) to those who already have it? would it not make more sense to show those principles to the people who would benifit from it most?
the people who you would show the door to are the people who would benifit most from training in the way.

yes, it is very easy and comfortable to teach aikido to those who you judge to be correct in your own view. but is it not a very good way of learning self awareness, in teaching those that you judge to be 'bad'. to learn not to fight them or resist them by showing them the door.. but instead allowing yourself to show them acceptance and relieving yourself of personal limitations.

anyway, I find those who 'act up' or do not obey etiquette even after the guidlines have been layed out either change their actions over time, or leave of their own free will.

my 2p anyway

Hi Kev,
I agree with you on this. Though I may not have a few months ago.

I have been dealing with an identical situation over the past few months and had almost reached the point of either putting the student out of the dojo or possibly bouncing him so hard off the mat that the loose screw in his head would be knocked back into place :)

In speaking to my sensei and those on this forum I decided to "open my heart" a bit and stick it out.

After giving him a copy of "The Art of Peace" to use for meditation and distributing exerpts on Aikido character expectations from a variety of books, including "The Secrets of Aikido" to the entire class, the atmosphere has changed somewhat, and the person's attitude in class has changed tremendously.

Today, I must say that as long as he keeps his ego in check, this student is slowly becoming one of my most promising. I look back at when I wanted to eject him from the class and realise that "harmony" as we so easily refer to as Aikidoka is not as easy in life when someone else does not appreciate the value of that harmony. It is here that we are challenged by the universe to prove to ourselves whether we truly believe in this thing called harmony. Do we open our hearts and minds to all expressions of the universe and attempt to blend with and understand it? Or do we sit on our laurels and lay judgement?

I do believe that safety is a PRIMARY concern in training, but sometimes we must risk our own comfort zone to understand and help others.

"Love your enemy"-Jesus Christ.
"True victory is self victory"-Morihei Ueshiba.

I do apologise for the length of this post.
Sumimasen.
L.C.:ai::ki:

eric carpenter
12-18-2001, 02:46 PM
I think good manners are important to show
thanks for being taught and respect for your uke.It also makes the do jo a more pleasurable place,if you enjoy what your doing you will continue to train.

Creature_of_the_id
12-19-2001, 03:11 AM
Wow, Hi Eric.
I live in Vigo, only a couple of minutes from you