Hard Aikido

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[jirvine]

Hello
My name is Jon Irvine. For the last two years I've been taking random lesson's in San Soo Kung Fu Mostly from my brother a 2nd degree black belt who live's in California. Here ly's my problem. I have not been able to find a reliable master who teaches any where near my house. I live in Sheridan Oregon and I'm willing to travel as far as Portland Oregon to learn Hard Aikido. Can anybody in this forum lead me in the right direction?
Jon Irvine
jirvine7774@yahoo.com

[Carlos Rivera]

I don't know what you mean by "Hard Aikido" but you have an Iwama Style Aikido school near you in Salem, OR. You can find dojos through the Aikiweb dojo search engine. Anyway, here's their link:

http://www.nobelnoise.com/aikidosalem

I practice Iwama Style Aikido, and you may want to check it out.

Good luck!
:triangle: :circle: :square:

[DarkShodan]

I thought all aikido was hard! You mean there is "Easy Aikido"? Holy cow! Where do I sign up for that?!

Also, I have been drinking "Fat Free" water for years, says so on the label. There must be water with the fat still in it somewhere! If someone could please hook that up for me I would appreciate it.

;-)

[Ron Tisdale]

Portland Oregon? Look up Alan Beebee...let me check the spelling of the name.

Best,
Ron

[Pierre Kewcharoen]

I thought all aikido was hard! You mean there is "Easy Aikido"? Holy cow! Where do I sign up for that?!

Also, I have been drinking "Fat Free" water for years, says so on the label. There must be water with the fat still in it somewhere! If someone could please hook that up for me I would appreciate it.

;-)

While you are at it, you might as well enjoy some "fat free" air.

[Ron Tisdale]

Allen Beebe ... you can PM him on this board. If you want GOOD aikido (haven't a clue what you mean by hard) this is the place to look, in my opinion.

Best,
Ron

[Eric Joyce]

When you say hard do you mean something that resembles a form of jujutsu?

[TomW]

Allen Beebe ...

His Aikido is good, but that whole "reliable master" thing.....:freaky: :D

[Pierre Kewcharoen]

His Aikido is good, but that whole "reliable master" thing.....:freaky: :D

If you see a "master" wearing colorful gi's and teaching how to throw "ki" balls at people. Run far away.

[Chris Farnham]

I almost moved to Portland about six months ago and my Sensei recommended Multnomah Aikikai. I don't know how hard they are but they are a member of Chiba Sensei's Birankai organization. While I'm not sure that the term hard should be used in an Aikido context( I think it conveys ideas of tension that don't belong in Aikido), Chiba Sensei's Aikido has been referred to as hard from time to time.

[DarkShodan]

While we can sit here and debate the meaning of hard, it's important to note "Hard" Aikido does not mean "Good" Aikido. I have worked with some very talented people who are very soft, but very effective. I have worked with a lot of hard styles as well and I can not say they are necessarily better. I think it's great to do hard throws and fast pins but someday you will be 60 years old and then what? Looks like a lot of good instructors in the Portland area, but I can not vouch for any of them personally. Chiba Sensei, yes, hard style, or better defined as rough style. I really do like Chiba Sensei but some of his students try to be like him and don't do him justice. Again, Hard is not necessarily Better.

Fat Free air?! Un-believable! What will they invent next?

[deepsoup]

When you say hard do you mean something that resembles a form of jujutsu?

Aikido is a form of jujutsu.

[No Dan]

I haven't posted except maybe once or twice....I would have to agree with another reply in "Hard"...You are probably referring to Hard and Soft style martial arts....In Aikido if you are inquiring in the same ideas as in general....well here goes my Prejudice....go with a good Iwama class...You want Hard....when you bounce off the floor from a good surprise of Irimi Nage and a good THUMP from a Koshinage....then you will have found Hard...go young Jedi and find the force...

[Walker]

Allen Beebe ... you can PM him on this board. If you want GOOD aikido (haven't a clue what you mean by hard) this is the place to look, in my opinion.

Best,
Ron
Ron, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

[shhh, check's in the mail...]
;)

[Pierre Kewcharoen]

It's a Consipiracy

[Ron Tisdale]

Ron, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

[shhh, check's in the mail...]
;)

And you as well... :D

Now, where did I put today's mail???

B,
R

[Daniel Blanco]

Aikido training can be soft or hard that depends on you your level and the respectable level of your partner,concentrate on both soft and hard style Aikido and you will enjoy this martial art.

[Jorge Garcia]

While we can sit here and debate the meaning of hard, it's important to note "Hard" Aikido does not mean "Good" Aikido. I have worked with some very talented people who are very soft, but very effective. I have worked with a lot of hard styles as well and I can not say they are necessarily better. I think it's great to do hard throws and fast pins but someday you will be 60 years old and then what? Looks like a lot of good instructors in the Portland area, but I can not vouch for any of them personally. Chiba Sensei, yes, hard style, or better defined as rough style. I really do like Chiba Sensei but some of his students try to be like him and don't do him justice. Again, Hard is not necessarily Better.

I have thought about what "hard Aikido" is very much since I started to teach. I have always liked a good robust form of Aikido with big throws and firm pins and lots of fast action. A few people have characterized what I do as realistic and some as hard. As I have looked at it more carefully, I have come up with two different categories based on some of the people I have trained under and the contrast I see with what I am trying to do and what my own intentions are.

My two distinctions are dangerous Aikido and safe Aikido. I think what should be characterized as "hard" is what most refer to as what I would call dangerous. If you are going in with a tsuke and tori or nage returns with an iriminage, there are two alternatives, one is a Steven Seagal type of spearing motion or just letting them go by or possibly going up and lifting them.
The spearing motion is dangerous and could break your neck or seriously injure you, even if you know how to jump up and relax your body and receive the technique. This kind of a technique is from an older style of Aikido and the older style may have some origins in really trying to hurt the attacker.
Letting the strike go by and pulling them down from behind could be said to be soft but effective. Entering with the hip and using an upward arm motion will catch them and lift them up. At that point, they will fall to the ground at the speed of gravity and they can either take the ukemi or not but at the worst, they will most likely just have the wind knocked out of them.

In what I do, no matter how fast or robust I do it, is always just trying to lift up uke and then move out of the spot where he is falling and let him fall at the speed of gravity adding no extra down motion. Some people add a lot of extra down motion to their techniques and the more you add, the greater amount of chance of an injury. That one intentionality adds something to the technique that puts it into another category. I do a lot of things to protect uke and I try not to cause uke pain but rather to control uke by putting him in zero gravity for one second and then lifting him and letting him fall at the speed of gravity. In my mind, this is that safest way to do techniques and still be effective.

Soft looking motions and even simple unbalancing motions added with a bad intention can still be dangerous and in my mind considered as "hard".
Another way I learned to look at this was that. It doesn't matter how it looks, it matters what you are trying to do. I once took some classes with an instructor that basically did everything I have ever told my students not to do because of safety but he did them all on purpose. Every technique then had a large percentage of danger because he was executing them in a dangerous way. For example, In a kokyunage throw, I teach the you should shoot your energy out because it is powerful, effective and relatively safe and yet uke falls at the speed of gravity. Some people drop their weight, lean forward hard and then push down with the arms and hands as hard as they can driving uke into the mat and sending the head in a downward motion dangerously close to the mat. I call that hard because it introduces an element that increases the chance of serious injury. It's very dangerous.
I understand that an accident can happen at any time in any style and that there are variables but for thier sake of definition and some clarity, this is how I think about it.

Once, someone said I had a very hard style because of some of the throws I do. Then, one of my black belts answered and said, "One thing about him is that he never throws anyone anyway unless he is convinced that they can receive the throw the way he is doing it." That is a factor as well. Some teachers either don't have the understanding or don't care and they will throw you not really knowing your capacity to receive a technique. That is dangerous in my mind and that's hard Aikido because it is dangerous to the recipients of it.

That is my simple take on the subject with the understanding that there are obvious exceptions to any principle here and there.
best wishes,
Jorge

[Ron Tisdale]

Nice post Jorge! I basically agree...

Best,
Ron

[Kevin Leavitt]

Yup...good post Jorge!

I think Good Aikido is Hard. Hard to do that is!

[Rocky Izumi]

I might be disagreeing here. I find that the more gently any technique is done, the more dangerous it becomes for Uke if the technique is done for effectiveness. It is much safer to throw someone with force and direction because the vectors in the fall do not change as much as with one done gently. For a throw to be done gently or a pin to be done gently, but effectively, it must be done with full implementation of Kokyu and Ki No Nagare. The smoothness that entails means a lot of rotational movement, in other words, acceleration instead of speed. Force, being equal to Mass times Acceleration means that the force with which an individual is being thrown or pinned with that rotational movement is being moved with much greater force than a direct linear throw or pin (especially since the use of Kokyu indicates a use of full mass). Physics would suggest that gentleness, if used correctly throws or pins a person with much greater force than a strong linear throw or pin. Thus, effective gentleness is much more forceful than linear use of muscle power and could, thereby, be much more dangerous for Uke. I have hurt more people by accident doing gentle things than forceful throws or pins or takedowns. That is why I tend not to do real gentle any more, it is too dangerous for any Uke who is not yet a Yudansha.

Rock

[Ron Tisdale]

Very interesting post Rock, I'm going to think about it a bit, then I might have a question or two...

Best,
Ron

[John Matsushima]

In my experience, "hard aikido" only works on those who are not strong enough to resist it. In addition, people who do use force often telegraph their moves with a wind up, and then since their force is easily felt, to me, it can be easily countered. You can't counter what you don't feel. "Soft Aikido" to me is both effective and safe. I like to train so that I can do my techniques on anyone effectively. That means taking someone who is a beginner and putting them into a high fall, but having the control to rotate them so that they hit the ground in a safe position. I think that "hard aikido" occurs when someone has good form, but lacks dynamics and direction.

[L. Camejo]

It is much safer to throw someone with force and direction because the vectors in the fall do not change as much as with one done gently. For a throw to be done gently or a pin to be done gently, but effectively, it must be done with full implementation of Kokyu and Ki No Nagare. The smoothness that entails means a lot of rotational movement, in other words, acceleration instead of speed. Force, being equal to Mass times Acceleration means that the force with which an individual is being thrown or pinned with that rotational movement is being moved with much greater force than a direct linear throw or pin (especially since the use of Kokyu indicates a use of full mass). Physics would suggest that gentleness, if used correctly throws or pins a person with much greater force than a strong linear throw or pin. Thus, effective gentleness is much more forceful than linear use of muscle power and could, thereby, be much more dangerous for Uke. I have hurt more people by accident doing gentle things than forceful throws or pins or takedowns. That is why I tend not to do real gentle any more, it is too dangerous for any Uke who is not yet a Yudansha.The above has also been my observation as well. I agree totally - well said Rock.

Imho safety in the dojo has much less to do with whether one does forceful waza and more to do with the skill level of Uke's Ukemi and Tori's understanding and appreciation of that skill level.

Regarding "hard" vs "soft" Aikido I got the impression that the OP used it in a context common to Chinese MA where the "hard" arts tend to be more focused on building combative ability first, then the internal and the "soft" style focused more on internal skills first, then combat ability later. Of course this is from my own limited knowledge of CMA, corrections are welcome.

[salim]

Perhaps he means something similar to this video clip.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4&feature=related

[stan baker]

It is easy to look powerful against someone weaker and smaller. Real aiki power contains both hard and soft.Explosive power in aiki does not mean hard it is just overwhelming.

stan

[Brian Vickery]

Hello
... I live in Sheridan Oregon and I'm willing to travel as far as Portland Oregon to learn Hard Aikido. Can anybody in this forum lead me in the right direction?
Jon Irvine
jirvine7774@yahoo.com

...if Yoshinkan Aikido is what you mean by 'hard' aikido, here's a dojo in Oregon, but I have no idea if this is close to you or not:

Takudokan Dojo
Stephen Hamilton
PO Box 4909 Sunriver, Oregon 97707
Phone: (541)598-8654
takudokan@yahoo.com

Regards,

[Steven]

...if Yoshinkan Aikido is what you mean by 'hard' aikido, here's a dojo in Oregon, but I have no idea if this is close to you or not:

Takudokan Dojo
Stephen Hamilton
PO Box 4909 Sunriver, Oregon 97707
Phone: (541)598-8654
takudokan@yahoo.com

Regards,

This school is inactive and has been for sometime. Besides, I don't think the original poster has any clue as to what he means. He hasn't posted since his first post.

Besides, Yoshinkan is not hard. That's a myth. :-)

[Amir Krause]

I have thought about what "hard Aikido" is very much since I started to teach. I have always liked a good robust form of Aikido with big throws and firm pins and lots of fast action. A few people have characterized what I do as realistic and some as hard. As I have looked at it more carefully, I have come up with two different categories based on some of the people I have trained under and the contrast I see with what I am trying to do and what my own intentions are.

My two distinctions are dangerous Aikido and safe Aikido. I think what should be characterized as "hard" is what most refer to as what I would call dangerous. If you are going in with a tsuke and tori or nage returns with an iriminage, there are two alternatives, one is a Steven Seagal type of spearing motion or just letting them go by or possibly going up and lifting them.
The spearing motion is dangerous and could break your neck or seriously injure you, even if you know how to jump up and relax your body and receive the technique. This kind of a technique is from an older style of Aikido and the older style may have some origins in really trying to hurt the attacker.
Letting the strike go by and pulling them down from behind could be said to be soft but effective. Entering with the hip and using an upward arm motion will catch them and lift them up. At that point, they will fall to the ground at the speed of gravity and they can either take the ukemi or not but at the worst, they will most likely just have the wind knocked out of them.

In what I do, no matter how fast or robust I do it, is always just trying to lift up uke and then move out of the spot where he is falling and let him fall at the speed of gravity adding no extra down motion. Some people add a lot of extra down motion to their techniques and the more you add, the greater amount of chance of an injury. That one intentionality adds something to the technique that puts it into another category. I do a lot of things to protect uke and I try not to cause uke pain but rather to control uke by putting him in zero gravity for one second and then lifting him and letting him fall at the speed of gravity. In my mind, this is that safest way to do techniques and still be effective.

Soft looking motions and even simple unbalancing motions added with a bad intention can still be dangerous and in my mind considered as "hard".
Another way I learned to look at this was that. It doesn't matter how it looks, it matters what you are trying to do. I once took some classes with an instructor that basically did everything I have ever told my students not to do because of safety but he did them all on purpose. Every technique then had a large percentage of danger because he was executing them in a dangerous way. For example, In a kokyunage throw, I teach the you should shoot your energy out because it is powerful, effective and relatively safe and yet uke falls at the speed of gravity. Some people drop their weight, lean forward hard and then push down with the arms and hands as hard as they can driving uke into the mat and sending the head in a downward motion dangerously close to the mat. I call that hard because it introduces an element that increases the chance of serious injury. It's very dangerous.
I understand that an accident can happen at any time in any style and that there are variables but for thier sake of definition and some clarity, this is how I think about it.

Once, someone said I had a very hard style because of some of the throws I do. Then, one of my black belts answered and said, "One thing about him is that he never throws anyone anyway unless he is convinced that they can receive the throw the way he is doing it." That is a factor as well. Some teachers either don't have the understanding or don't care and they will throw you not really knowing your capacity to receive a technique. That is dangerous in my mind and that's hard Aikido because it is dangerous to the recipients of it.

That is my simple take on the subject with the understanding that there are obvious exceptions to any principle here and there.
best wishes,
Jorge

I might be disagreeing here. I find that the more gently any technique is done, the more dangerous it becomes for Uke if the technique is done for effectiveness. It is much safer to throw someone with force and direction because the vectors in the fall do not change as much as with one done gently. For a throw to be done gently or a pin to be done gently, but effectively, it must be done with full implementation of Kokyu and Ki No Nagare. The smoothness that entails means a lot of rotational movement, in other words, acceleration instead of speed. Force, being equal to Mass times Acceleration means that the force with which an individual is being thrown or pinned with that rotational movement is being moved with much greater force than a direct linear throw or pin (especially since the use of Kokyu indicates a use of full mass). Physics would suggest that gentleness, if used correctly throws or pins a person with much greater force than a strong linear throw or pin. Thus, effective gentleness is much more forceful than linear use of muscle power and could, thereby, be much more dangerous for Uke. I have hurt more people by accident doing gentle things than forceful throws or pins or takedowns. That is why I tend not to do real gentle any more, it is too dangerous for any Uke who is not yet a Yudansha.

Rock

The above has also been my observation as well. I agree totally - well said Rock.

Imho safety in the dojo has much less to do with whether one does forceful waza and more to do with the skill level of Uke's Ukemi and Tori's understanding and appreciation of that skill level.

Regarding "hard" vs "soft" Aikido I got the impression that the OP used it in a context common to Chinese MA where the "hard" arts tend to be more focused on building combative ability first, then the internal and the "soft" style focused more on internal skills first, then combat ability later. Of course this is from my own limited knowledge of CMA, corrections are welcome.

As someone who studies a rather "practical" style with very S.D. \ applicable oriented teacher (we practice on perfecting the elements Jorge pointed and a few others). I wish to agree with you. Most people confuse "hard" with effective, the opposite is true.
The way I am taught is to be very soft, so my technique will be more effective \ dangerous \ ... But, when I say soft, I do not mean weak, rather I talk of a tiger moving smoothly with full sensitivity and reaction to any minor pressure.

Once you become hard, you only use few limited muscles for each motion, and typically, the smaller ones (mostly arms and upper body) while a soft body utilizes more muscles, and typically the larger ones (mostly legs back).
I vividly recall one instance, almost a decade ago: Both me and a friend had to prepare a stretcher in an army course for a journey, this involved getting a piece of tier stretched over the stretcher to hold it in place on the dedicated back-pack. At first, the friend who was much stronger (we did PT together, so it was easy to know) tried for 5 times and failed. I knew I did not have a chance, since he was much stronger, but still I asked to try, and I did it with ease from the first time. Simply because I utilized all my body weight and the larger muscles.

Soft techniques do not contradict a one touch = one throw approach.

One should be soft and sensitive before the touch to direct it. One should be soft and harmonious during the touch to fully utilize his body, to enable fine directional tuning for improved impact, and to let Tori know if anything goes wrong – letting Nage change the technique in the same flow.

The same softness and sensitivity is also our major safety valve. We rarely have accidents, because we strive to use the minimal force and energy required for each move. The same ability of shifting techniques can be used to stop everything if the practice becomes too dangerous.
Thus people progress in both accuracy of performance (making their techniques more dangerous for the joints) just as they learn to sublimate and control the effect.
This approach gives more then sufficient margin of error for most of the student progress. The 1st Kyu students are a main danger source in this regard - since the level of advancement of the former element is faster than the latter. Thus these students must get additional attention to make sure they will not try to force anything.

The paradox about all of this is that this type of M.A. is very hard, TO LEARN and teach. It goes against the instinct of most people, who seem to think muscling things will get better effects, one of the harder teaching phases it get people to realize it is wrong.

Amir

[Brian Vickery]

This school is inactive and has been for sometime ...Besides, Yoshinkan is not hard. That's a myth. :-)

...See what I mean!!! ...this dojo was SO HARD that it's no longer exists!!! ...all the students killed each other while training!!!;)

[KamiKaze_Evolution]

I don't think that Yoshinkan Aikido is hard Aikido, it could be both gentle and hard. Or some when you have to browse over youtube, i have to watch how does Inoue Kyoichi Hanshi gentle is he. It's a fact too because Takeno Takafumi Sensei is tough enough, but however Yoshinkan Aikido isn't hard only Aikido.

[Mike Sigman]

Perhaps he means something similar to this video clip.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4&feature=relatedThis guy is not bad at all (I have no idea who he is), but he also illustrates what I mean by levels. His hands indicate that he is obviously Yoshinkan, but his power is part ki and part strength, not crisp ki/kokyu like Shioda used. At least that's my opinion. Don't get me wrong, he's pretty good.... I'm just using him to point out that a lot of people "get it", but the level they get it can be an entirely different discussion. ;)

FWIW

Mike "don't flame me for a simple observation" Sigman

[John Connolly]

Isoyama is an Aikikai Aikidoka, via Iwama.

[Mike Sigman]

Isoyama is an Aikikai Aikidoka, via Iwama.Really? I don't know much about Iwama style, although back in the day I had one of the original sets of Saito's set of books (which I foolishly gave away!). My immediate question is... do the Iwama people also use that hyper-extension of the hand to symbolize/"develop" their ki? I've only seen some Yoshinkan people do it and I wasn't aware that some Iwama types did, too. Incidentally, I would expect anyone who overdid the hand thing to also be on the "muscle" side of any possible ki development they had.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[Stephen Webb]

In my admittedly limited exposure to aikido, I tend to divide hard and soft style in the way other people have done it here: there is a minimum amount of "force" necessary to execute a technique. The soft people feel that minimum and go juuuust above it so that the technique is effective. The hard people go as far as they can to execute the technique, also effective.

After having a discussion with one of my instructors about this, he talked a lot about how aikido isn't about hard or soft, it's about having a dial and being able to tune it as necessary. Using a sankyo grip to make your three year old stop hitting you (I've seen it done and it worked) is very different from using a sankyo grip to subdue a drunk guy in a bar. In order for aikido to be universally effective, you have to be able to turn the nob quickly during a confrontation, but without overshooting or undershooting the right level.

[grondahl]

Yes, "putting energy" or "kokyo" in to the grabbed part of the body is atleast a part of all basic techniques (but the explanations on how to actually do that is not that clear). However, to many people becomes stiff as h*ll as a result. The heavy focus on static (gotai or katai training) with heavy resistance can also be a trap since some people tend to get stuck with responding to the resistance with more resistance instead of relaxing.
Ki exercises is not a regular part of the curriculum but we do lots and lots of suburi that are supposed to be relaxed and coordinated with the breath.

My immediate question is... do the Iwama people also use that hyper-extension of the hand to symbolize/"develop" their ki? I've only seen some Yoshinkan people do it and I wasn't aware that some Iwama types did, too. Incidentally, I would expect anyone who overdid the hand thing to also be on the "muscle" side of any possible ki development they had.

[Joe Bowen]

Mike,

Isoyama Sensei is the Shihan Dai and current dojocho for the Iwama dojo. I have not trained with him personally but know a few who have, and if I recall correctly he was born and raised in Iwama, was a Soto Deshi in the dojo while O'Sensei was still teaching there and studied intensively with both O'Sensei and Saito Sensei. He later joined the Japanese Air Force equivalent and serve a 20 some odd year career with the Japanese Self Defense force while teaching and running dojos wherever he was stationed. He taught many American Air Force personnel aikido. He retired back into the Iwama area, I think before Saito Sensei passed, and after Saito Sensei's passing, the Doshu put him in charge of the Iwama dojo since he was the most senior guy in the area (8th Dan) in what for many Iwama folks was a pretty controversial decision.
Personally, I always thought it made pretty good sense. Isoyama seems to have a pretty good grip of Aikido.
There is probably more of the history on the aikiwiki....

Regards, joe

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Mike "don't flame me for a simple observation" Sigman

So you can't tell an iwamaer from a yoshinkaner?
:)

[Mike Sigman]

So you can't tell an iwamaer from a yoshinkaner?
:) I realize that it marks me as someone who is not all that fashion-conscious, but no. I never paid a lot of attention to the different "styles". In my rather feeble fashion-sense, I'm sort of aware that few current Yoshinkan people move at all like Shioda's rather distinct movements, so I have this vague category of some people (some good; some bad) who came after Shioda Sensei; I never met many Yoshinkan people, so I had no motivation. I also have a vague concept of Saito as being having an admirable style and a controversial mantle that some people say is old Ueshiba-style and some people not, but since I never met but one or two Iwama-style people, I didn't devote a lot of thought in that direction. Sorry. ;)

Mike

[Mike Sigman]

Mike,

Isoyama Sensei is the Shihan Dai and current dojocho for the Iwama dojo. I have not trained with him personally but know a few who have, and if I recall correctly he was born and raised in Iwama, was a Soto Deshi in the dojo while O'Sensei was still teaching there and studied intensively with both O'Sensei and Saito Sensei. He later joined the Japanese Air Force equivalent and serve a 20 some odd year career with the Japanese Self Defense force while teaching and running dojos wherever he was stationed. He taught many American Air Force personnel aikido. He retired back into the Iwama area, I think before Saito Sensei passed, and after Saito Sensei's passing, the Doshu put him in charge of the Iwama dojo since he was the most senior guy in the area (8th Dan) in what for many Iwama folks was a pretty controversial decision.
Personally, I always thought it made pretty good sense. Isoyama seems to have a pretty good grip of Aikido.
There is probably more of the history on the aikiwiki....

Regards, joeThanks, Joseph. Thanks for the information. He looks like a strong guy.

All the Best.

Mike Sigman

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I realize that it marks me as someone who is not all that fashion-conscious, but no. I never paid a lot of attention to the different "styles".

This is not a fashion or style vs. style thing and much less a political issue, but I noticed your interest in body skills, so i figured you had studied in detail the different approaches.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Mike Sigman]

This is not a fashion or style vs. style thing and much less a political issue, but I noticed your interest in body skills, so i figured you had studied in detail the different approaches.Hi Demetrio:
Well, from experience I can roughly spot most peoples' abilities (at certain levels), but I can do that across a spectrum of martial arts because the ki/kokyu skills are one thing and the particular martial skills are another. So I can watch someone move and give a general estimate of what their skill level is in ki/kokyu things while not knowing anything at all about their style or the particular approaches in a dojo/school.

Actually, what I'm saying supports, to a large extent, what Tohei does in the Ki-Society. He grades people on their Aikido and he separately grades them on their ki/kokyu skills.

Best.

Mike

[Walter Martindale]

I might be disagreeing here. I find that the more gently any technique is done, the more dangerous it becomes for Uke if the technique is done for effectiveness. It is much safer to throw someone with force and direction because the vectors in the fall do not change as much as with one done gently. For a throw to be done gently or a pin to be done gently, but effectively, it must be done with full implementation of Kokyu and Ki No Nagare. The smoothness that entails means a lot of rotational movement, in other words, acceleration instead of speed. Force, being equal to Mass times Acceleration means that the force with which an individual is being thrown or pinned with that rotational movement is being moved with much greater force than a direct linear throw or pin (especially since the use of Kokyu indicates a use of full mass). Physics would suggest that gentleness, if used correctly throws or pins a person with much greater force than a strong linear throw or pin. Thus, effective gentleness is much more forceful than linear use of muscle power and could, thereby, be much more dangerous for Uke. I have hurt more people by accident doing gentle things than forceful throws or pins or takedowns. That is why I tend not to do real gentle any more, it is too dangerous for any Uke who is not yet a Yudansha.

Rock

I can vouch for Rocky's "gentle" throws hurting the most. Kawahara's too. Attack, attack hard - what? Where'd he go? Oh oh... Where'm I going? OUCH!!! How in )*^*&% did he do that?
"yep, I'm fine, just need a moment to get my breath"...
At the time I was still "mudansha" but had 8 years of judo background so the ukemi wasn't ALL new.. Don't recall much of the judo ukemi hurting that much, either, but I was a lot younger during judo.

Walter

[eric_lecaptain]

Perhaps he means something similar to this video clip.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4&feature=related

OMG!! that guy is brutal. i dont think i could walk after a throw like that. :dead:

[Walter Martindale]

OMG!! that guy is brutal. i dont think i could walk after a throw like that. :dead:

You mean the Kata Guruma (I think that's what it's called) from Judo? Part of the first set (I think) grading in nage-no-kata. Isoyama doesn't go between the legs but it's just as nasty.

'zakly how nasty it is depends on whether nage (tori) makes it like a "guruma" movement and ukemi is more like taking a very large roll off something high, or if it's a straight down dump as done in the video. Either way, you need to be "firm" and keep oriented during ukemi or you land on shoulders, hips, heads (mostly your own). Whatever the case - I'm WAY too old now to do very much of that stuff.
W

[gregg block]

Ive heard of a guy named mike that teaches this style. It's called Mike's Hard Aikido....No.. wait a minute... im confusing him with the lemonade guy..sorry!

[eric_lecaptain]

Ive heard of a guy named mike that teaches this style. It's called Mike's Hard Aikido....No.. wait a minute... im confusing him with the lemonade guy..sorry!

ha ha.
you said "hard".