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AnonymusGuy
11-20-2007, 09:27 AM
About two years ago, two of my colleagues were taking a 1st kyu exam, and I was their uke. During their exam I wasn't aware that I made one mistake regarding dojo etiquette (I was sitting in the wrong place) because no one ever told me it was wrong. After their exam ended this guy approached me and in front of everybody told me about my mistake in a way "Are you crazy, do you know what you did...!?" He then turned his back on me and walked away before I had the chance to tell him that I didn't know about this rule. Then I called him by his name, and he turned around and said "Who do you think you are to call me like that!"

What's worse, later I told our dojo cho about this incident. He told me he'll investigate it. And a few days later he told me he talked with this guy and that the problem wasn't this guys behavior, but the main problem was in the way that I tried to get his attention when he turned his back on me when I tried to explain.

Sometime in May this year, there was this martial arts demonstration, and our dojo was invited to participate in it. This guy was the leader of our demo team, and since I wasn't in the demo team I took my camera to take some photos for the club (to put on our web site) and I also took pictures of other demo teams. At one point before the demonstration began, i approached this guy and asked him if he could gather the demo team so I could make a group photo. His reaction was literally "What do you want with this camera!? You think entire world is revolving around you because of it?", and after the demonstration he approached me and I had to listen various insults from him, most of them were (among other things) about my behavior (that I don't know how to behave). And he even proposed that if there's a problem we solve it with a fight...

Of course, once again I reported this to our dojo cho, and his response was "Uh you have to solve that problem with him". Is this just me or this guy has no interest what's happening in the dojo?

Just a few more things about this guy that gives me a hard time...: Many times I had to practice with him he was very rough when he applied techniques on me, and when it was my turn I couldn't apply any technique on him because he resisted by brute force. After that his explanation was often something like "Uh, that's wrong, but you'll learn it someday." My other colleagues also complained about that... And of course he is bigger and stronger than me.

And by the way, this lack of interest (or ability) of our dojo cho to do something about all this situation (this black belt guy that is harassing me) is literally killing my desire to continue practicing, not to mention that I feel very uncomfortable in class especially if this guy is present or even leads the class (i leave the class if he's leading it).

Any advice what to do?

dps
11-20-2007, 09:40 AM
Try another dojo. If the problem is the other guy, you have solved your problem. If the problem is with you, the problem will follow you.

David

gdandscompserv
11-20-2007, 09:42 AM
Look for a kinder, friendlier dojo.:)

SmilingNage
11-20-2007, 11:03 AM
The Cho should step in and say, regardless of who is at fault, cut the crap, shake hands and be done with this nonsense. But since he is unwilling, you should leave. Make sure you tell your teacher why you are leaving. Include the fact that this senior feels that the only way to resolve the issue(s) would be if the two of you duke it out.

One lesson from this, would be see how you interact and influence others. You do play a part in this, regardless of the size of the role or your intent. I think this is the most interesting aspect of Aikido, the interaction between practitioners. If you bully your uke chances are they will try to do the same to you. Through practice a lot about yourself is revealed. For me anyway, its been an eye opener.

James Davis
11-20-2007, 11:09 AM
If this person is truly as unreasonable as he's being portrayed, I'd just leave. Mentioning his antics to the dojocho may result in his having a vendetta against you. Leave quietly without leaving turmoil in your wake. Just my opinion. I never have this problem; Everybody loves me.:D

Will Prusner
11-20-2007, 11:17 AM
Write a note to the Dojo-cho explaining the situation, and how you feel you have been dishonored and then commit seppuku all over the dojo to give it that extra "oomph"...

...But seriously, instead of leaving, or fighting, why not try using Aikido principles to resolve the conflict (what a concept).

SmilingNage
11-20-2007, 11:22 AM
Just leaving does resolve the immediate issue for yourself but it wont correct any future outbreaks of this behavior. If its a matter of safety; If senior students were picking fights in my dojo, I would sure would want to know about it.

Larry Cuvin
11-20-2007, 01:28 PM
I'm just curious but not knowing the dojo etiquette at that time tells me that you are new to the dojo and possibly to the art. If this is true, are you the only one available to take ukemi for these two 1st Kyu testers? It seems unfair to have someone new to take ukemi for an advanced student.

The guy is an just a major d1ck and for him to suggest settling any problem by "taking it outside" sends me negative signals regarding your dojo. The dojocho's response almost proves this theory and is either a good friend of him or just afraid.

Have sensei resolve the problem and if not satisfied respectfully leave the dojo and look for another that will suit your needs.

SeiserL
11-20-2007, 01:34 PM
If you cannot move the other person, then move yourself.

Ron Tisdale
11-20-2007, 02:35 PM
There really isn't enough information to give any useful advice. That is kind of the problem with this particular sub-forum, but it is what it is...

Maybe invite the guy for a beer, ask him to help you (nicely) understand his point of view, and get back to training? If that doesn't work, maybe leaving is the only option.

The only time I personally remember anyone of my dojo mates being mad enough to knock some sense into me, was when I was cranking like crazy on his joints to get a waza to work, when he was actually trying to help me learn by providing useful resistance. I was a bit thick at the time...who knows why. :eek: :crazy:

We actually get along just fine, he's one of my favorite training partners and seniors, and the instructor made sure everyone was satisfied and there was no issue. :) I made it clear that I was in the wrong, and that was the end of it. If that's not what is happening where you are, I guess I'd have to consider not staying there.

Best,
Ron (it was really cool when he was throwing me later that night...felt like I was being launched from a 747! :D Wheeeeeeee!)

Don
11-20-2007, 07:33 PM
Ron gives some good advice. On the presumption you are following reasonable dojo etiquette, then invite the guy for a beer after class to see where his head is. After all, dojo etiquette should end at the mats edge and you are equals last time I checked in the U.S. If the guy is a prick off the mat as well as on the mat then either ignore him on the mat (yes you can politely refuse to practice with him) or find another dojo. You run into people like that sometimes who for some reason lack something in the rest of their life and think that because they have achieved more proficiency in technique than lower ranked students, it makes it okay for them to not have any proficiency in human relations. (generally called being d*ck). Just because you are a lower ranked student than this person, doesn't give him or her the right to treat you like a piece of trash.

Nikopol
11-20-2007, 10:14 PM
I usually find the expression "Who do you think you are to ..."

is an indication that the person has nothing upstairs.

But it won't help to point that out.

It sounds like this brown belt is a petty tyrant who has an inflated view of his abilities. You are bound to encounter a few. They get especially hysterical around testing time. I wouldn't judge a person by his antics before or immediately after a test or exhibition. Just breath and stay alert.

The advise to politely decline to train with him seems reasonable, and perhaps this is a good way to bring attention to his attitude, and he will himself realize he had better straighten up. But if there is no improvement and the kancho does not intervene, then this is one of those times when I would agree that you may be better off finding a new dojo.

Pierre Kewcharoen
11-21-2007, 07:20 AM
If this guy is a a-hole and your sensei is not seeing this. Then you should leave. If it was up to me, id kick him in the balls then leave. Don't take no crap from bullies.

Instigator
11-21-2007, 09:34 AM
I'd punch his lights out then say "Bow to your sensei!"

But in all seriousness, I would leave that school. An instructor who does not care for his students (which is shown by how he has helped you with your problem) is not an instructor worth caring for. I would make sure to tell the instructor exactly why you are leaving, and do not be rude but do not candy coat it. I'd say something like this.

"I am leaving due to personal issues with person X. I have tried to resolve the problem, but he refuses. I have tried to get your help, but you have refused. I am done with this. Let me know if this situation changes and maybe we can try again. Thanks."

Brian Vickery
11-21-2007, 11:00 AM
Maybe invite the guy for a beer, ask him to help you (nicely) understand his point of view, and get back to training?

...I also agree with this approach, talking with the guy 'man to man' outside the dojo over a beer. My guess from what little you've said is that this guy just has no respect for you at all, and this meeting will at least start him thinking that maybe he's made the wrong assumption about you. He might not even be aware that he's been such a jerk toward you, and this will at least bring that to his attention. If he refuses or continues to treat you disrespectfully during/after your talk, then the guy is just an arrogant jerk, and there's nothing you can do about it.

...but where I differ from Ron's opinion is that I would NOT leave the dojo! Continue to train, just ignore this idiot! And don't 'fight' this guy, that's just plain wrong! [A fight won't decide who is right, it just decides who is stronger!!! ...not very Aiki!]

...by doing the beer thing, you've done all you can to fix the problem, but sometimes problems just can't be fixed ...and life goes on! ...BUT DON'T QUIT!!!!!

Ron Tisdale
11-21-2007, 11:11 AM
I have to admit, I like the *idea* of not quitting...but sometimes the reality is that you cut your losses. Especially if the senior instructor is as "hands off" as the posts make it seem. But my view could be totally skewed...

B,
R

ChrisMoses
11-21-2007, 11:24 AM
If this guy is a a-hole and your sensei is not seeing this. Then you should leave. If it was up to me, id kick him in the balls then leave. Don't take no crap from bullies.

What he said. Rank is no excuse to be a dick.

Jorge Garcia
11-21-2007, 11:36 AM
About two years ago, two of my colleagues were taking a 1st kyu exam, and I was their uke. During their exam I wasn't aware that I made one mistake regarding dojo etiquette (I was sitting in the wrong place) because no one ever told me it was wrong. After their exam ended this guy approached me and in front of everybody told me about my mistake in a way "Are you crazy, do you know what you did...!?" He then turned his back on me and walked away before I had the chance to tell him that I didn't know about this rule. Then I called him by his name, and he turned around and said "Who do you think you are to call me like that!"

What's worse, later I told our dojo cho about this incident. He told me he'll investigate it. And a few days later he told me he talked with this guy and that the problem wasn't this guys behavior, but the main problem was in the way that I tried to get his attention when he turned his back on me when I tried to explain.

Sometime in May this year, there was this martial arts demonstration, and our dojo was invited to participate in it. This guy was the leader of our demo team, and since I wasn't in the demo team I took my camera to take some photos for the club (to put on our web site) and I also took pictures of other demo teams. At one point before the demonstration began, i approached this guy and asked him if he could gather the demo team so I could make a group photo. His reaction was literally "What do you want with this camera!? You think entire world is revolving around you because of it?", and after the demonstration he approached me and I had to listen various insults from him, most of them were (among other things) about my behavior (that I don't know how to behave). And he even proposed that if there's a problem we solve it with a fight...

Of course, once again I reported this to our dojo cho, and his response was "Uh you have to solve that problem with him". Is this just me or this guy has no interest what's happening in the dojo?

Just a few more things about this guy that gives me a hard time...: Many times I had to practice with him he was very rough when he applied techniques on me, and when it was my turn I couldn't apply any technique on him because he resisted by brute force. After that his explanation was often something like "Uh, that's wrong, but you'll learn it someday." My other colleagues also complained about that... And of course he is bigger and stronger than me.

And by the way, this lack of interest (or ability) of our dojo cho to do something about all this situation (this black belt guy that is harassing me) is literally killing my desire to continue practicing, not to mention that I feel very uncomfortable in class especially if this guy is present or even leads the class (i leave the class if he's leading it).

Any advice what to do?

I've been through this and if you've gone to the dojo cho, you might as well leave because nothing will change. Don't worry, there is a place that will want you and appreciate you. The atmosphere has created what you have in that guy. It will absorb you too if you don't get away from it.

Best wishes,
Jorge

Pierre Kewcharoen
11-21-2007, 12:05 PM
...I also agree with this approach, talking with the guy 'man to man' outside the dojo over a beer. My guess from what little you've said is that this guy just has no respect for you at all, and this meeting will at least start him thinking that maybe he's made the wrong assumption about you. He might not even be aware that he's been such a jerk toward you, and this will at least bring that to his attention. If he refuses or continues to treat you disrespectfully during/after your talk, then the guy is just an arrogant jerk, and there's nothing you can do about it.

...but where I differ from Ron's opinion is that I would NOT leave the dojo! Continue to train, just ignore this idiot! And don't 'fight' this guy, that's just plain wrong! [A fight won't decide who is right, it just decides who is stronger!!! ...not very Aiki!]

...by doing the beer thing, you've done all you can to fix the problem, but sometimes problems just can't be fixed ...and life goes on! ...BUT DON'T QUIT!!!!!

Easier said than done. If hes doing it now he is going to continue doing it. And from the looks of it, he is going to be allowed to do it. Can't tell from the size of the class, but I think it will be kinda hard to avoid him. Its a direct blueprint of what goes on during bullying in elementary school. The guy even wanted to fight him for no reason. If he stays, I think a fight will ensue sooner or later. Better see how your sensei reacts too, last time i checked it was aikido not a underground bar fighting karate.

Brian Vickery
11-21-2007, 01:21 PM
Easier said than done....
...you're right about that! ...I never said it was going to be easy, but if you ever want the guy to respect you, you have to start acting like somebody worth respecting!

...or you could just take the easy way out & disappear!

...it's up to you which path you take!

Best of luck with this one!

Marc Abrams
11-21-2007, 01:45 PM
You are in a difficult predicament. Attention to detail can provide you with a lot of clues as to where to go from here.

1) Look around at other schools in your area and ask yourself if this particular sensei is so much better than the others in your area that you cannot "afford" to leave this training opportunity. If the answer is "no", I see no reason why to engage in such a masochistic process.

2) Japanese culture usually allows for the social influences to balance out the "nail that sticks up." If the teacher is not Japanese, or is not very traditional, then the teacher is clearly failing in the responsibility to create and sustain a safe training atmosphere.

3) If you choose to stay, you can simply avoid working with that person. If confronted by that person, tell the person that you are there to train with people who are interested in helping you learn.

4) If you have to work with that person, as uke, be as soft as humanly possible and exit early in ukemi so that the person does not have an opportunity to be intentionally hard. This tactic usually results in that person not wanting to work with you. As nage, if the person refuses to allow you to complete the technique, stand there and ask for his assistance in helping you to be able to complete the technique as nage.

5) You can be up-front with that person in an open manner. You can tell this person that you are eager and open to learning, but that for some reason, you and he do not seem to work well together. He as the senior student, has an obligation to help you learn, and you would want to know from him, why this is so difficult for both of you. Ask directly, what both of you could do to improve the situation.

This person may not change, despite your best efforts. This is an opportunity for you to see how you can avoid conflict. If conflict is inevitable, then simply do what you must to stay safe. If the situation becomes a real risk to your personal safety and the teacher does not protect the students, then find training opportunities elsewhere. This path of budo is a LONG path with many options. Be patient and do not fear trying other directions.

Best wishes for a safe ending to this bad situation.

Marc Abrams

AnonymusGuy
11-21-2007, 02:11 PM
I'm just curious but not knowing the dojo etiquette at that time tells me that you are new to the dojo and possibly to the art. If this is true, are you the only one available to take ukemi for these two 1st Kyu testers? It seems unfair to have someone new to take ukemi for an advanced student.

Actually, I hold the rank of 1st kyu.

The thing is that for some reason dojo etiquette in our dojo is almost non existent (we just know when to bow, but we don't line up according to rank, people walk on and off the mat as they like etc.), and no one has ever told me about that rule I broke (Even other people of my rank told me they didn't know it was wrong, but obviously this guy that's harassing me found it to be a good reason to harass me....)

One other thing regarding this dojo is that a lot of people that hold my rank, an even some lower ranks, are sometimes allowed to assists the instructors (and our dojo cho) when there's many people in class, and even sometimes to lead the beginners class if/when instructors are absent.... But they never let me assist, or lead the class. ( I mean if i don't deserve the rank I currently have, why did they let me take the grading exams in the first place?)

A few times I visited other Aikido clubs in my area (different styles). Later, when my dojo cho heard about that, he told me it was bad thing to do, that ill get egotistic, and asked me if I think that I'm better than the rest of the people in dojo, etc.

So much for now...

AnonymusGuy

PS. English is not my native language...

Marc Abrams
11-21-2007, 02:54 PM
AnonymusGuy:

From your most recent post, I can deduce that your head teacher is insecure and breeds egotistical forms of insecurity in his students. If my teacher responded to me in the way that he did about your visits to other dojos, I would simply thank him for his opinion, and render my opinion that I would be better off at another school.

Marc Abrams

jennifer paige smith
11-21-2007, 03:27 PM
What he said. Rank is no excuse to be a dick.

What he said, and the He before him. Rank is all the more reason Not to be a dick. The dickiness is a sign of self importance and that is the result of an un-checked Ego. Or even a bunch of unchecked egos that run the power/etiquette enforcement of a dojo. Like in a petri dish, the self-importance phenomena can spread in a dojo and you may not find support from 'upper management'. But I would ask you to take the advice of David Skaggs and look for another dojo to train at for a bit, just to get a reality check on your personal situation. And I am inspired to remind you that Sempai are there to provide real examples of the benefits of training through their behaviour in all aspects of human relations within the dojo (and arguabley, without) as well as help you responsibley understand the rules. If they have left you feeling drug-out, well....

And finally, I would recommend reading the rules of etiquette from the Aikido Schools of Ueshiba.They are comprehensive and address all members of training life, including sempai and sensei.

Good Luck!

James Davis
11-21-2007, 03:44 PM
A few times I visited other Aikido clubs in my area (different styles). Later, when my dojo cho heard about that, he told me it was bad thing to do, that ill get egotistic, and asked me if I think that I'm better than the rest of the people in dojo, etc.
Does he think that his school, or his way, is better than all the other schools? I would so be down the road if I were you.


PS. English is not my native language...

You write it really well.:)

Nikopol
11-21-2007, 07:08 PM
Reading these posts I must say it has also been my own philosophy that no matter how much you are ragged on, only you can decide to quit. You don't give away that power.

An anectote however. There was an Aikidoka who was being a compliant uke for a mate who was asking one of the instructors to check his technique. Unsatisfied with the sankyo as demonstrated, the instructor himself applied a sankyo on this compliant uke, taking him down at an extremely painful angle. He then offered to show it again, and this time ukes shoulder was nearly dislocated as it crashed to the mat.

Uke, cheek scrunched against the mat, noticed kancho sensei across the room slowly rise, and come over and offer to demonstrate same technique, with the instructor as uke. Kancho Sensei made the point that once you apply the lock you do not release it until the pin. Instructor was slapping his thigh frantically, and soon was on the mat, still slapping for his life.

Kancho then offered to show how this worked in the case of a nikyo, and the pain seemed to be more extreme than in the sankyo. A long time on the mat, instructors hand flapping like a beached fish.

By way of demon-stration, Kancho then performed an ikkyo on instructor with the same efficiency, seldom does one see an ikkyo that is so painful even before the pin is made. Instructor 's feet were off the ground.

Then Kancho asked the two original students, 'Understand?' and they nodded and Kancho walked away and they went back to practice.

The moral is that if such a Kancho sees the abuse, he might deal with it without letting on. This is the kind of dojo you want. :D

David Yap
11-21-2007, 07:24 PM
Hi Vince,

Good anectote. I wonder whether the instructor got the message.

Best regards

David Y

AnonymusGuy
11-22-2007, 01:01 PM
Our dojo is affiliated with a certain organization (the one headed by a certain chief instructor who split with the organization's headquarters a few years ago). But for some reasons, our head instructors refuse to have any contact with other schools of Aikido, and in a way act like the chief instructor is some sort of a guru. Of course, probably because of my interests to learn some other things beside official chief instructor's teachings, (and to have a sort of eclectic aikido approach), they don't like me... (for example, when I volunteer to be in a demo team or to lead the class, they often tell me that I'm "not yet ready".)

I also must say that I've been to several seminars of other styles and on a few occasions my training partners were people that hold the rank 4th or 5th dan, and I found them to be more polite and friendly (not to mention willing to explain all the mistakes and how to correct them), than some people in my dojo that hold 1st or 2nd dan and pretend they know everything (and in most cases their only explanation is "Ah, that's wrong, you'll learn it someday." or "You should now what your mistakes are.").

To be honest, I've been seriously thinking about leaving that dojo and joining another one (there's only one other dojo of our style in my area), at least to see if things will change to better. I even considered the possibility to start my own dojo, but I feel like I don't have enough knowledge and experience for that, (not to mention money to rent a place and buy mats)....

So much for now...

AnonymusGuy

AnonymusGuy
11-22-2007, 01:16 PM
...A few years ago, we had one girl, a former karate student, that joined our beginners group. After a few classes she insisted that she want's to practice with advanced group (the group I'm in), and one of the instructors allowed it.

During one of the advanced classes she was in, she began acting like she already knows everything better than the rest of us do (after maybe 2 months of practice). On one occasion during one technique I resisted her technique on purpose, and of course her technique didn't work. Then I did a kaeshi waza and pinned her to the ground with sankyo, not twisting or yanking her hand, but just holding it so she can't move; she was frantically trying to get herself free (she even tried to hit me with her legs). After that "lesson" she didn't want to speak with me for the rest of that class, and in fact i think she never came to class again...

Esaemann
11-23-2007, 12:17 PM
Vincent,
That story is hilarious. I love it.

Anon,
"A few times I visited other Aikido clubs in my area (different styles). Later, when my dojo cho heard about that, he told me it was bad thing to do, that ill get egotistic, and asked me if I think that I'm better than the rest of the people in dojo, etc."

Personally, I don't think I would have been in a dojo like that long enough to hear that. I've only trained in one dojo since starting, but have never encountered, nor seen anybody else encounter or act like you described in your first post. I don't believe seeking out another dojo that suits your tastes better is a negative thing. Not sure how "running from your problems", if that's what this is called, ever got to have such negative connotations. Life is too short.

roadster
11-23-2007, 10:32 PM
If what you say is accurate, it is the first time I have heard of such a thing happening in an Aikido dojo to this extent I have heard of. (No offense to other martial art forms but I have heard of this happening quite a bit in the more martial forms)

Frankly, it doesn't look like it will be an easy fix. Unless you are planning a mission, I would suggest finding another dojo to train in. I wouldn't personally recommend that because of head butting but it seems like there is more to it than that.

Good luck to you. I think you have been patient enough so far.

jeep
11-24-2007, 10:47 AM
Sounds like a golden opportunity to practise aikido in its most difficult form, i.e. verbal aikido I recommend Terry Dobson's book aikido in everyday living for ideas.

If you are having trouble putting a technique on, ask the person for feed back, what did it feel like or what you are doing wrong ? It doesn’t matter what grade you ask, as even a novice might be able to give you an insight into what the problem is.

All I’ll say about the Sensei thing is that any sensei worth his salt would do the opposite, and encourage their students to learn from different instructors.

Re the “lesson” with the girl, I interpreted that paragraph as that you deliberately did the pin to teach the girl a lesson. Even though you did the techniques without malice it indicates perhaps some level of arrogance. Of course it maybe just the way you have written it as English is not your native language. Something maybe (or maybe not) to think about.
;)

AnonymusGuy
11-24-2007, 02:35 PM
Sounds like a golden opportunity to practise aikido in its most difficult form, i.e. verbal aikido I recommend Terry Dobson's book aikido in everyday living for ideas.Thanks for advice .... I'll try to get that book.

If you are having trouble putting a technique on, ask the person for feed back, what did it feel like or what you are doing wrong ? It doesn't matter what grade you ask, as even a novice might be able to give you an insight into what the problem is.I found that when I was practicing with it was much easier to find out where my mistakes are since they don't expect thechnique...

All I'll say about the Sensei thing is that any sensei worth his salt would do the opposite, and encourage their students to learn from different instructors.I heard that every instructor has something special he can teach his students, and following only one teaching would be some sort of a limitation... wouldn't it?

Re the "lesson" with the girl, I interpreted that paragraph as that you deliberately did the pin to teach the girl a lesson. Even though you did the techniques without malice it indicates perhaps some level of arrogance. Of course it maybe just the way you have written it as English is not your native language. Something maybe (or maybe not) to think about.
;)Maybe I put it a bit wrong in my previous post about that girl. She was former karate student (black belt) and she was the one that was a bit arrogant; Every time when someone tried to explain her some technique she was always reacting in a "leave me alone I already know this" manner... and at the end every class she would intentionally get in a way and disturb us while we were folding our hakamas (for example she would intentionally step on it or pull those cords used to tie hakama and disturb our work), and when we asked her not to do it she wouldn't listen, or even threaten us with her karate skill.

Jeep
11-26-2007, 02:58 AM
I heard that every instructor has something special he can teach his students,

No i don't agree, they may have a preference or be good in one particular area but I don't think they would keep something special just for students

and following only one teaching would be some sort of a limitation... wouldn't it?

It would be like eating exactly the same food week in, week out. As they say variety is the spice of life.

Maybe I put it a bit wrong in my previous post about that girl. She was former karate student (black belt) and she was the one that was a bit arrogant; Every time when someone tried to explain her some technique she was always reacting in a "leave me alone I already know this" manner... and at the end every class she would intentionally get in a way and disturb us while we were folding our hakamas (for example she would intentionally step on it or pull those cords used to tie hakama and disturb our work), and when we asked her not to do it she wouldn't listen, or even threaten us with her karate skill.

Very bizarre !

Happy Training

Amir Krause
11-26-2007, 05:00 AM
I heard that every instructor has something special he can teach his students

Yep, every teacher has something sepcial for every student. For each person, there are some teachers whose lesson is "you can't learn from everybody". Different students will find this lesson to apply to different teachers (it is a matter of match up and as much as of quality),

following only one teaching would be some sort of a limitation
Only if you are never oen to learning from others. On the other hand, I found the best teacher for me on the first try, in a fluke of chance, and have stayed with him since (for over 17 yrs now). I did venture around (he even enourages it at times), and I have gone and studied for short times with other teachers (other styles and other M.A.). My outside experiance only strengthened my opinion above.

Amir

Angela Dunn
11-26-2007, 06:25 AM
If this situation has been dragging on for two years, (which I get the impression from your posts it has) then your really in a bad place. Has any other students have a problem with him and if so can you not band together to have polite word with your dojo cho (I am assuming you mean Sensei their) and explaining that this student is a problem and is creating a bad atmosphere in the dojo.

By the sounds of it though maybe your Cho needs a lesson in people skills himself! If he knows that students are having a problem and it is not getting resolved thats the point he surely should be stepping in and giving a demonstartion in co-operation. After all isn't that at least part of what Aikido is about?

If I was you I would try again with the other student. Take him out for a drink, or even whilst your training and try and talk it out. If that does not work, and you feel like you are being excluded from things that others of your rank are doing I would be heading to a dojo elsewhere and tell the Cho exactly why you are going. He may not like it but if he wants to progress his dojo and improve then he should take it on board.

As an aside I was wondering what sort of dojo you are attending when you mentioned about not knowing about certain dojo etiquate. If you and others did not know then something is not right there IMHO!

Shany
11-26-2007, 06:35 AM
I would leave this dojo to find another place, with positive energies. that man, with his behavior, does not do Aikido or act by it's philosophy.

AnonymusGuy
11-26-2007, 12:19 PM
If this situation has been dragging on for two years, (which I get the impression from your posts it has) then your really in a bad place. Actually this situation with this guy that's harrasing me has been going on for about 2 years, but this situation about others excludimg me from major dojo activities (demonstrations etc.) lasts longer... ever since I joined the dojo about 8 years ago...

At the beginning I really thought that they never let me be in the demo team becasue my bad technique (im a bit clumsy) do I did my best to improve it (even risking some injuries), but later, after a few years, I noticed that every people of my rank had been in the demo team on several occassions, and sometimes they even let some beginners with a few months of experience and seroius coordination problems to demonstrate techniques.

They also never let me assist the instructor or lead the beginner classes myself when instructor is absent (I hold the rank of 1st kyu). Of course once I had to lead the entire class because no on else of higher rank was present, and although many people that were in class later said it was OK and they liked it, I had to listen the usual "You' re not yet ready" story from dojo cho and other senior instructors.

Has any other students have a problem with him and if so can you not band together to have polite word with your dojo cho (I am assuming you mean Sensei their) and explaining that this student is a problem and is creating a bad atmosphere in the dojo.Many other students that had bad experiences with that guy always find excuse for him(!). For example, one guy told me that he applied some very painful techniques on him (even after he was tapping), but his conclusion was "Oh, but he has a very godd techniqe". IMO This guy maybe has a good technique, but on the other hand he's a really lousy teacher with very bad attitude and lack of respect towards the rest of the people in the dojo; always with a smile with people who outrank him or his good friends, but often harrasing people of lower ranks in a way I already described.

If I was you I would try again with the other student. Take him out for a drink, or even whilst your training and try and talk it out. I've tried that several times, but every time it was unsucessfull. Every time I tried to talk to that guy he always had something more something important to do, he would just ignore me, or sometimes even insult me.

If that does not work, and you feel like you are being excluded from things that others of your rank are doing I would be heading to a dojo elsewhere and tell the Cho exactly why you are going. He may not like it but if he wants to progress his dojo and improve then he should take it on board. I think that's just what I'll do if I decide to leave the dojo.... (you must understand that I'm having second thoughts about about leaving the dojo because I have some good friends there)...

JorgeGarcia
11-26-2007, 01:36 PM
Actually this situation with this guy that's harrasing me has been going on for about 2 years, but this situation about others excludimg me from major dojo activities (demonstrations etc.) lasts longer... ever since I joined the dojo about 8 years ago...

At the beginning I really thought that they never let me be in the demo team becasue my bad technique (im a bit clumsy) do I did my best to improve it (even risking some injuries), but later, after a few years, I noticed that every people of my rank had been in the demo team on several occassions, and sometimes they even let some beginners with a few months of experience and seroius coordination problems to demonstrate techniques.

They also never let me assist the instructor or lead the beginner classes myself when instructor is absent (I hold the rank of 1st kyu). Of course once I had to lead the entire class because no on else of higher rank was present, and although many people that were in class later said it was OK and they liked it, I had to listen the usual "You' re not yet ready" story from dojo cho and other senior instructors.

Many other students that had bad experiences with that guy always find excuse for him(!). For example, one guy told me that he applied some very painful techniques on him (even after he was tapping), but his conclusion was "Oh, but he has a very godd techniqe". IMO This guy maybe has a good technique, but on the other hand he's a really lousy teacher with very bad attitude and lack of respect towards the rest of the people in the dojo; always with a smile with people who outrank him or his good friends, but often harrasing people of lower ranks in a way I already described.

I've tried that several times, but every time it was unsucessfull. Every time I tried to talk to that guy he always had something more something important to do, he would just ignore me, or sometimes even insult me.

I think that's just what I'll do if I decide to leave the dojo.... (you must understand that I'm having second thoughts about about leaving the dojo because I have some good friends there)...

Just go. He doesn't like you and he won't care about your reason for leaving. Just wherever you go, be great and do great and that will take care of the past.

Brian Vickery
11-26-2007, 02:13 PM
Actually this situation with this guy that's harrasing me has been going on for about 2 years, but this situation about others excludimg me from major dojo activities (demonstrations etc.) lasts longer... ever since I joined the dojo about 8 years ago...

.... (you must understand that I'm having second thoughts about about leaving the dojo because I have some good friends there)...

...Wow! ...so this has been going on quite awhile then!

...There must be something positive/good that keeps you coming back that outweighs the negative/bad, you've been putting up with it for 8 years now!

...What is it that keeps you coming back?

...And you mentioned the good friends that you have there, which is something that you want to keep. The social aspect of the dojo is really important to me, almost as much as the training, so I can see where that would be hard to give up!

...I'm sticking by my original opinion, stick with it!!! You deserve to be there as much as anybody else! Don't let the A-holes force you out, don't let them win!!!

James Davis
11-26-2007, 03:49 PM
They also never let me assist the instructor or lead the beginner classes myself when instructor is absent (I hold the rank of 1st kyu). Of course once I had to lead the entire class because no on else of higher rank was present, and although many people that were in class later said it was OK and they liked it, I had to listen the usual "You' re not yet ready" story from dojo cho and other senior instructors.
Your instructor no-showed, you covered for his ass, and you got grief?!


I've tried that several times, but every time it was unsucessfull. Every time I tried to talk to that guy he always had something more something important to do, he would just ignore me, or sometimes even insult me.

If trying to talk to him alone won't work, then talk to him when the rest of the herd is present. If he's a jerk in front of everyone else, you won't need to tell everyone why you're leaving.


I think that's just what I'll do if I decide to leave the dojo.... (you must understand that I'm having second thoughts about about leaving the dojo because I have some good friends there)...



Keep in contact with the reasonable people. If you go to another dojo and find a safe and respectfull environment, maybe your friends will follow. They may be scared to leave by themselves, but with a leader maybe they could be stronger?...

There are some mean, stupid people on this planet that are unable to behave like an adult and treat people with any respect. Kicking their asses and throwing them in the dumpster every day for a month wouldn't teach them anything. Be the change you want to see in the world. Stop wasting weeks and months of your life and move! You just might teach someone something.

What would you tell someone that you love if they were in this situation?

Best of luck to you.;)

AnonymusGuy
11-26-2007, 04:49 PM
Your instructor no-showed, you covered for his ass, and you got grief?!Yes.

If trying to talk to him alone won't work, then talk to him when the rest of the herd is present. If he's a jerk in front of everyone else, you won't need to tell everyone why you're leaving.After so many attempts, I believe that would be pointless, because dojo cho believes him, and not me... He thinks I'm overreacting and exaggerating things. I even asked dojo cho and one another senior instructor to be present there but of course they said something like "We can't waste our time taking care of adult people", so basically they don't give a sh.. about what's happening in the dojo.

If you go to another dojo and find a safe and respectfull environment, maybe your friends will follow. They may be scared to leave by themselves, but with a leader maybe they could be stronger?... Maybe....

Pierre Kewcharoen
11-26-2007, 05:47 PM
I'm curious to see what this jerk looks like

akiy
11-26-2007, 08:29 PM
Hi folks,

Let's please keep the tone of our discussion respectful. Calling the person in question names and such degrades the quality of this discussion.

Also, AnonymousGuy, please refrain from posting specifics about your situation which may identify your teacher; I have taken the liberty of editing one of your posts which gave too much information in my eyes. I encourage people not to use the anonymous feature to specifically identify their situation so as to protect both the anonymous person as well as others involved. This thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4325) outlines the basic, underlying purpose of the Anonymous Forum.

Thanks,

-- Jun

Walter Martindale
11-26-2007, 11:29 PM
Sounds to me like departure is probably the best solution. Have you discussed the situation with your friend(s) in the dojo?

I suspect that the people who are giving you so much grief are insecure in their abilities/knowledge, but...
If you decide that it's worth staying, the suggestions that you invite the unfriendly person for a beer, are good ones...
My way of doing it would be to order the drinks, do the "cheers" think in whatever language - (slaintiea (sp?), cheers, kampai, prosit) have a bit of a drink, and let the person know that you're quite confused, and would like to know what it is that you've done to cause such tension.

IMO, asking "who are you to talk to me that way" (paraphrased from your original post) was phrased in such a way that the other fellow didn't have much choice but to get a little more aggressive - publicly put on the spot (I know - he did the same). Sort of like "What's Your Problem, BUDDY!!" (precursor to a dust-up).

I think that, on that same day, if you'd gone to him privately and apologised for your mistake, asked what it was or where it was you should have done/been, he might have explained.

I think in some circles we say "Praise publicly, criticise privately" i.e., if you catch someone doing something "right" - jump up and down and say how great it is, but if you catch someone doing something wrong, wait til it's finished (unless there's danger involved) and let the person know quietly the nature of the mistake and the way to correct it.

(I think that's from "One Minute Manager")

anyway - if this sort of thing has been tried and failed, it may be time to cut your losses and try another dojo. Another has posted that if you find the same problems there, it could be you - if you find that the problem stays behind, it could be the people you've left.

Hope you get a good resolution.

W

Angela Dunn
11-27-2007, 05:30 AM
So you have a individual there who is refusing to stop putting pins on even though people are tapping out, and this guy is also an instructor! your being excluded from dojo life and you have a person who is supposed to be in charge that is not taking charge, at least with regards to the adult classes.

I am sorry to say this but that sounds like a pretty dangerous situation to be in and someone is going to get seriously injured one day. The first thing I got taught is if someones tapping out then you stop no matter what rank you or they are.

You say your reluctant to leave because you have friends there. Thats great as the social side is important, but if your serious about progressing in your own learning, If I was you I would be looking elsewhere. Seriously as at least some of the people in your dojo do not seem to care about helping people progress to the best of their ability. thats not the type of situation, well I get the impression its not, where your getting the best out of training and its seems like you have done all you can to resolve the situation with the bully in question.

AnonymusGuy
11-27-2007, 08:09 AM
Also, AnonymousGuy, please refrain from posting specifics about your situation which may identify your teacher; I have taken the liberty of editing one of your posts which gave too much information in my eyes. OK. I apologize for that....

Michael Hackett
11-27-2007, 05:26 PM
Just a random thought.....perhaps this is viewed as part of AG's training by the Dojo Cho. Perhaps the Dojo Cho sees no danger to his students and wants AG to find his own path to harmony, rather than stepping in. I have seen two sensei who have taken this approach to dojo conflict; causing the complaining party to become introspective and examine his own motives, emotions, strengths and weaknesses. I don't necessarily subscribe to this method of leadership, but then again I don't have their breadth of experience either. Then again, perhaps the Dojo Cho in question has no personal strength of character. I dunno.....

Steven
11-27-2007, 07:13 PM
Personally -- I think 50% of the problem is the original poster. But that's just me. Seems to me that the answer is right before him. From what I read, there is no solution to the problem in his eyes.

I can't help but wonder what the "other" side of the story would say about this.

But that's just me ... what do I know.

AnonymusGuy
11-28-2007, 03:25 PM
Personally -- I think 50% of the problem is the original poster. But that's just me. Seems to me that the answer is right before him. From what I read, there is no solution to the problem in his eyes.

I can't help but wonder what the "other" side of the story would say about this.

But that's just me ... what do I know.I always try to solve a problem if there is one, but in this particular case why should I waste my time trying to fix a problem, when the other side is not interested...?

AnonymusGuy
11-28-2007, 03:27 PM
BTW Maybe it takes two to start a fight, but one isquite enough for harrasment...

Steven
11-28-2007, 04:14 PM
I always try to solve a problem if there is one, but in this particular case why should I waste my time trying to fix a problem, when the other side is not interested...?

I rest my case.

So why do you stay if you feel you’re being harassed and the problem is unfixable? Like I said, the answer is right in front of you. Time to stop the whining and move on.

danj
11-29-2007, 08:33 PM
I've found the following to be helpful in many situations and in many senses - slippers are made for walking too ;)

"If it is peace you want, seek to change yourself, not other people. It is easier to protect your feet with slippers than to carpet the whole of the earth." not sure who said it Ghandi maybe?

"God grant me the serentity to accept things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference", Anon

dps
11-29-2007, 08:41 PM
Full Original Serenity Prayer
by Reinhold Niebuhr (1892-1971)

God, give us grace to accept with serenity
the things that cannot be changed,
Courage to change the things
which should be changed,
and the Wisdom to distinguish
the one from the other.

Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace,
Taking, as Jesus did,
This sinful world as it is,
Not as I would have it,
Trusting that You will make all things right,
If I surrender to Your will,
So that I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy with You forever in the next.

Amen.

David

dps
11-29-2007, 08:58 PM
To a disciple who was forever complaining about others the Master said, "If it is peace you want, seek to change yourself, not other people. It is easier to protect your feet with slippers than to carpet the whole of the earth." -Anthony de Mello, SJ

David

Shannon Frye
11-30-2007, 06:59 PM
I agree. It sucks to have to "move on" when you have found a dojo where you are happy with the style, location, pricing, and so forth. And I'm surprised to see so many people simply say "move on" when there may not be anywhere to move on to. But truth is that even 1 (in my case it was more) dkheads can really make the dojo experience an unpleasant one.

We all know this art requires a partner. In my case, childish adult students would hog ukes. (Work in 3's and leave me odd man out - or rotate working with new students to make sure I had no uke). :grr: Head instructor saw it all, and did nothing till I got fed up and started name calling. Then "I" was the one banished.:eek:

Seriously - as nice as the place may be, if you feel you're getting nowhere with the cho, and things are not going to improve - it's time to say "Sayonara"

Shannon
(now in a MUCH nicer place)
:circle: :triangle: :circle:

I have to admit, I like the *idea* of not quitting...but sometimes the reality is that you cut your losses. Especially if the senior instructor is as "hands off" as the posts make it seem. But my view could be totally skewed...

B,
R

boon
12-04-2007, 08:09 PM
Maybe I put it a bit wrong in my previous post about that girl. She was former karate student (black belt) and she was the one that was a bit arrogant; Every time when someone tried to explain her some technique she was always reacting in a "leave me alone I already know this" manner... and at the end every class she would intentionally get in a way and disturb us while we were folding our hakamas (for example she would intentionally step on it or pull those cords used to tie hakama and disturb our work), and when we asked her not to do it she wouldn't listen, or even threaten us with her karate skill.

You let littel Kroty Gurl (TM) bully ya... LOL!

Now go lurn sum grappling and sankaku hur all yer want...

Boon.

xuzen
12-04-2007, 08:13 PM
Maybe I put it a bit wrong in my previous post about that girl. She was former karate student (black belt) and she was the one that was a bit arrogant; Every time when someone tried to explain her some technique she was always reacting in a "leave me alone I already know this" manner... and at the end every class she would intentionally get in a way and disturb us while we were folding our hakamas (for example she would intentionally step on it or pull those cords used to tie hakama and disturb our work), and when we asked her not to do it she wouldn't listen, or even threaten us with her karate skill.

Yer let a Kroty Gurl (TM) bully ya? LOL

Now go lurn sum T3H GR4PPL3 and sankaku hur all ya want....

Boon.

Pierre Kewcharoen
12-05-2007, 07:44 AM
huh :confused:

Lorien Lowe
12-06-2007, 01:32 AM
A few times I visited other Aikido clubs in my area (different styles). Later, when my dojo cho heard about that, he told me it was bad thing to do, that ill get egotistic, and asked me if I think that I'm better than the rest of the people in dojo, etc.

Until I read this, I was thinking that you should try to arrange a meeting with both your dojo-cho and the harassing jerk under the guise of 'informing you of the ettiquite you have been breaching,' but after reading this I think you should cut your losses and find another dojo. What is described above is not a healthy attitude.

AnonymusGuy
01-11-2009, 06:57 PM
Just a small update from me....

Unfortunately, due to some serious health problems, I had to quit training, and so far I've been off the mat for about year and a half. I still hope for the best, and that I will return one day... But I've made the decision that it will definitely be in some other dojo.

Tony Wagstaffe
01-12-2009, 03:38 AM
Leave......

Seems the dojo is led and run by....... w.....s?
Or is it you?

Take Care ....... anonymous

Tony

AnonymusGuy
04-23-2011, 06:28 PM
Unfortunately, there will be no more Aikido for me. Doctor's orders. Due to serious problems with my heart I must avoid all physical activities. :(((

sakumeikan
04-24-2011, 02:11 AM
...I also agree with this approach, talking with the guy 'man to man' outside the dojo over a beer. My guess from what little you've said is that this guy just has no respect for you at all, and this meeting will at least start him thinking that maybe he's made the wrong assumption about you. He might not even be aware that he's been such a jerk toward you, and this will at least bring that to his attention. If he refuses or continues to treat you disrespectfully during/after your talk, then the guy is just an arrogant jerk, and there's nothing you can do about it.

...but where I differ from Ron's opinion is that I would NOT leave the dojo! Continue to train, just ignore this idiot! And don't 'fight' this guy, that's just plain wrong! [A fight won't decide who is right, it just decides who is stronger!!! ...not very Aiki!]

...by doing the beer thing, you've done all you can to fix the problem, but sometimes problems just can't be fixed ...and life goes on! ...BUT DON'T QUIT!!!!!

Dear Brian,
Why waste a good beer on a prat?Sad to say you always meet some stupid person who thinks they are the bees knees.
If you victim decided to bop this idiot , he had it coming.Why do aikidoka think there is always a peaceful resolution to everything ?Sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind.
Cheers, Joe.

guest1234567
04-24-2011, 06:40 AM
Full Original Serenity Prayer
by Reinhold Niebuhr (1892-1971)

God, give us grace to accept with serenity
the things that cannot be changed,
Courage to change the things
which should be changed,
and the Wisdom to distinguish
the one from the other.

Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace,
Taking, as Jesus did,
This sinful world as it is,
Not as I would have it,
Trusting that You will make all things right,
If I surrender to Your will,
So that I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy with You forever in the next.

Amen.

David

A very nice poem, thanks I just read it because Niall quoted it in his comment to the posthttp://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/moon-in-the-water-19051/manifesto-4195/

Sweetpotato
04-24-2011, 11:16 PM
Dear Brian,
Why waste a good beer on a prat?Sad to say you always meet some stupid person who thinks they are the bees knees.
If you victim decided to bop this idiot , he had it coming.Why do aikidoka think there is always a peaceful resolution to everything ?Sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind.
Cheers, Joe.

Hi Joe,

Absolutely in agreement with you. Extreme cruelty to the extremely arrogant.

Cheers

Sweet Potato Choong

Janet Rosen
04-25-2011, 09:06 AM
Another old old thread resurrected by a OP stopping in to say "never mind".....

Diana Frese
04-25-2011, 10:22 AM
It could be that "never mind" may be looking for something... could it be that the doctor meant no strenuous physical activity. Some hospitals actually sponsor tai chi and yoga classes, and swimming at health centers connected with hospitals, as Tully Center is connected with our Stamford Hospital.

My husband, who has practiced Kung Fu, says that some of the Aikido techniques and exercises can be practiced in a manner similar to Tai Chi, suitable for elderly people and those with injury and other limitations... anonymous may be able to look into something like that....

Anonymous Guy, good luck from both of us, we hope your health improves...

Johnbo
04-27-2011, 04:33 PM
There are plenty of people that you will bump into in life that have some form of mental issue where they find it necessary to bully others. Even, if you get past your current issue with him, he will make another problem. I wouldn't even bother going back to the dojo in question. By going back he will only break you down mentally to the point where you cannot think for yourself anymore.

I don't care what the ethics are in the dojo. There is a common eticate that we should all adhere to. That way we all progress and united we are stronger. And before anyone jumps to conclusions, I respect my teacher however, I wouldn't take any crap off anyone!!

No one and I mean no one has any right to bully or dominate another.

Just leave with your sanity intact and don't end up like me, lol !