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Kami
12-10-2001, 02:35 AM
Dear friends,

About a year ago, a friend told me that part of the remains of O Sensei and his son (the late Doshu) would be enshrined at Tsubaki Grand Shrine (a Shinto temple) in Japan.
I contacted many people in Japan and elsewhere and they all told me it was highly improbable, since no one heard about that and the present Doshu apparently wouldn't be present.
Now I got the information that this ceremony did take place
http://www.tsubakishrine.com/test/kannushi/about.asp

Can anybody help me and clear things up?
:confused:

Edward
12-10-2001, 05:32 AM
For me, Osensei was a great teacher, and as such, the most important thing is his teachings, not where his remains are. So whether this story is true or not, is irrelevant. Probably they are doing a lot of prejudice to the memory of Osensei by exploiting it this way. This is my own opinion and sorry if I offend anyone.

Kami
12-10-2001, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Edward
For me, Osensei was a great teacher, and as such, the most important thing is his teachings, not where his remains are. So whether this story is true or not, is irrelevant. Probably they are doing a lot of prejudice to the memory of Osensei by exploiting it this way. This is my own opinion and sorry if I offend anyone.

KAMI : Have no fear, your opinion doesn't offend anyone. And I hope I will not offend you too if I say that the biography and life story of important people is not considered irrelevant to the people who respects them.
To know Beethoven's life, Einstein's life or Krishnamurti's life, is to know the sources of many of his achievements. I don't believe this is prejudice to the memory of anyone.
But, of course, you have a right to your own opinion as all others have. And I didn't ask for a controversy. Quite the contrary, I ask for further enlightenment about this question. If anyone knows anything about that, please, feel free to answer me.
Best

Edward
12-10-2001, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Kami


KAMI : Have no fear, your opinion doesn't offend anyone. And I hope I will not offend you too if I say that the biography and life story of important people is not considered irrelevant to the people who respects them.
To know Beethoven's life, Einstein's life or Krishnamurti's life, is to know the sources of many of his achievements. I don't believe this is prejudice to the memory of anyone.
But, of course, you have a right to your own opinion as all others have. And I didn't ask for a controversy. Quite the contrary, I ask for further enlightenment about this question. If anyone knows anything about that, please, feel free to answer me.
Best

My reply was not meant to cause any controversy either. I have read with great interest the many biographies about Osensei. I learned a lot from them. The only problem is that Osensei passed away in 1969, which ends his life story at that time. Osensei still lives through his teachings and the art he created. This recent event happens over 30 years after the death of Osensei and now I too am very curious to know more about it and what is behind it.

Kami
12-10-2001, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Edward
My reply was not meant to cause any controversy either. I have read with great interest the many biographies about Osensei. I learned a lot from them. The only problem is that Osensei passed away in 1969, which ends his life story at that time. Osensei still lives through his teachings and the art he created. This recent event happens over 30 years after the death of Osensei and now I too am very curious to know more about it and what is behind it.

KAMI : I'm glad we both are curious. Stanley Pranin, John Stevens and Peter Goldsbury have delved in O-Sensei's life and the many things that have happened after his death.
About O-Sensei's remains new shrinement, I can tell you, according to what I know, that it was done by order of the Reverend Yukitaka Yamamoto at Tsubaki Grand Shrine to honour the memory of O-Sensei. No hidden meaning or "someone behind it". And it was given just a small note in that page I presented.
As you yourself has stated, we're both curious to now more about that.
So, if someone may help us...

Kami
12-14-2001, 03:51 AM
Dear friends,

I received two messages from Tsubaki America (american representative of Tsubaki Grand Shrine in Japan) :

To the Reverend Koichi T. Barrish

Dear Sir,

Recently, I came across a reference, in your webpage, about "the enshrinement of O Sensei's remains" at Tsubaki Grand Shrine, in Japan.
Dr. Fred Little, a noted scholar in japanese questions, including Aikido and Shinto,raised some indagations, which we would like very much if you could answer us.
This is Dr. Little's e-mail with his questions :
"I have looked over the site that you point to and have a couple of comments. First is on the nature of "enshrining" within a Shinto building or complex. In short, this requires only a "representative object," rather than any actual "remains."

Second, the sense of "tsumi" that attaches to death makes the actual presence of human remains at Shinto shrines fairly unusual. This may be one reason why many Japanese are both Buddhist and Shinto -- without the Buddhist priests there would be no one to deal with diseased and/or dying people.

(I should note in passing that O-Sensei's beard is said to be enshrined in Hikitsuchi Sensei's dojo in Shingu, but being a dojo rather than a Shrine per se, albeit with a strong Shinto influence, the requirements of ritual purity are somewhat different.)

Third, both Shinto and some forms of Japanese Buddhist practice have a well developed doctrine of "equivalence" that essentially erases all distinctions between fabricated relics and original relics, with the possible exception of ability of the relic to "multiply" or "reproduce itself."

This last exception prevents branch temples/shrines from assuming primacy, since any new temples/shrines will have to go back to the original temple/shrine for the ritual object associated with one or another entity who is to be "enshrined." Thus, O-Sensei's concern with finding Sarutahiko O-Kami's "original shrine," and arranging with the priests there to formally enshrine Sarutahiko O-Kami in Iwama, where the founder himself had already enshrined Sarutahiko O-kami.

One area of further research suggested by this information is the identification of the full list of kami enshrined in Iwama along with backtracking to determine in which instances O-Sensei made arrangements similar to those undertaken in this instance.

Best regards,

Fred Little "

Your help and advice will be, of course, much appreciated.

Respectfully

Ubaldo Alcantara

ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo


"Dear Alcantara,
E-mail doumo....now I will try to speak to your concerns.

1.)I don't see this as a interrogative

1 1/2.)I don't know where the idea of remains came from...I am relatively clear that it is not implied in anything authorized from Tsubaki Daihonguu or Tsubaki America.

2.)Actually in the SHINREI TAISAI of Tsubaki O Kami Yashiro Gyomandou the enshrined object is the REIJI or memorial plaque to which the Mitama (spirit) is asked to alight by a secret process (KOUSHIN) that is known to and carried out by Jinja Shinto Priests.

again,thank you for your e-mail and interest,and for sharing the letter of Dr.Little (we have never met)who seems quite knowledgeable.

Every wish for your success and happiness throughout the New Year,
K.Barrish
Tsubaki Kannagara Guji"

Reverend Barrish also sent this additional information to another request of mine :

Dear Barrish Sensei,

Thank you very much for a kind and informative answer. Many things were made clear.
I have just a last question for you to answer, if possible. Why no representative of Ueshiba's family was present at the enshrinement?
Best regards and again many thanks
Ubaldo Alcantara
ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo



"Dear Alcantara,
E-mail doumo and thank you for your kind words.
As to the question re:Ueshiba family members not being present...I cannot say.Any thinking I have on such a subject is only speculation..........it is possible that the family is currently creating a little space between itself and Jinja Shinto......Yamamoto Guji (96th High Priest of Tsubaki O Kami Yashiro-the Oldest Shinto Shrine in Japan) and O Sensei were I believe of a like mind/spirit.......they completely share the same view re:the inner/Kototama meaning of NAKATOMI-NO-O-HARAHI-NO-KOTOBA...(the most important words in shinto......this is of prime importance as this sacred Norito contains all information the human being need to live as well as explaining creation and the Mission of Kamisama,Human Beings and Aikido).
Every wish for your success and happiness.

K.Barrish
Chief Priest
Tsubaki America"

Further discussion and comments will be appreciated
Best

nikonl
12-14-2001, 10:54 AM
Can someone summarise the 2 letters?? :)

Conrad Gus
12-14-2001, 05:02 PM
I recently had a wonderful visit to the Tsubaki Grand Shrine of the Americas. It was a great experience!

I don't understand all the ins and outs of Jinja Shinto (it's pretty complicated), but I would encourage anyone who has the opportunity to go to take it.

Oh yes, Barrish Sensei (the head priest) can do Aikido Jyotsu Kigan. This is a special prayer to the Kami of O Sensei and Sarutahiko no O Kami for Aikido training.

Also great misogi training (coooold Cascade Mountains river) and wonderful Aikido keiko.

Check it out.

Conrad Gustafson

mathewjgano
03-01-2005, 12:09 AM
I believe a summary could be said as follows: there are no physical remains of O'Sensei at Tsubaki Okami Yashiro; as to no family members being present, only they can say why they weren't there and to speculate is often very difficult.