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MM
10-06-2007, 12:15 PM
Seems AikiWeb has come round another circle. Maybe some other place will pick up these conversations, but they seem to have died off here.

Jun, you can close this thread if you want. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere but down and Sigman has said he'd answer stuff over on Aikido Journal.

gdandscompserv
10-06-2007, 08:27 PM
Yeah, it would seem everyone has just moved along.:D

Mike Sigman
10-07-2007, 08:17 AM
Seems AikiWeb has come round another circle. Maybe some other place will pick up these conversations, but they seem to have died off here.Stanley Pranin learned the hard way on Aikido Journal that if you allow the light-weights to dominate the boards, like a certain number of the same guys do on AikiWeb now, that people just leave and post elsewhere. Pretty much every attempt at coherent discussion on ki/kokyu mechanics has been stymied on AikiWeb over the last couple of years. I say it's time to move to another forum where the moderator has the ability to recognize who is contributing and who is simply there to poop in the nest. Maybe Stanley is able to control Aikido Journal now, so it's time to give him another try?

FWIW

Mike Sigman

statisticool
10-07-2007, 08:56 AM
Ok, so why ki is supposedly missing cannot be explained.

Justin

Dan Austin
10-07-2007, 09:54 AM
Ok, so why ki is supposedly missing cannot be explained.

Justin

I think he's saying people like you have no skills or opinions anyone would be interested in. He's probably right.

dps
10-07-2007, 10:20 AM
Maybe some other place will pick up these conversations, but they seem to have died off here.

If it is important to you, Mike and like minded individuals that these conversation are discussed in a controlled forum on the internet, why don't you, Mike and those who are like minded either individually or collectively start your own website where you can moderate the discussion and filter out those you don't want to participate?

David

gdandscompserv
10-07-2007, 11:02 AM
I think Mike already has a forum like that David.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=186955&postcount=1507

gdandscompserv
10-07-2007, 11:12 AM
Pretty much every attempt at coherent discussion on ki/kokyu mechanics has been stymied on AikiWeb over the last couple of years.
Let's see...the 'baseline skillset' thread has 1,632 replies and 70,642 views. I wouldn't exactly call that "stymied."

dps
10-07-2007, 01:19 PM
I think Mike already has a forum like that David.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=186955&postcount=1507

Okay, what is the website address for "QiJin".

The discussion is hot and heavy over at Aikido Journal forum. http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11100&sid=95a40977a053191a917fd2568fe402ba

David

MM
10-07-2007, 02:26 PM
Stanley Pranin learned the hard way on Aikido Journal that if you allow the light-weights to dominate the boards, like a certain number of the same guys do on AikiWeb now, that people just leave and post elsewhere. Pretty much every attempt at coherent discussion on ki/kokyu mechanics has been stymied on AikiWeb over the last couple of years. I say it's time to move to another forum where the moderator has the ability to recognize who is contributing and who is simply there to poop in the nest. Maybe Stanley is able to control Aikido Journal now, so it's time to give him another try?

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Worth a try. :)

MM
10-07-2007, 02:34 PM
If it is important to you, Mike and like minded individuals that these conversation are discussed in a controlled forum on the internet, why don't you, Mike and those who are like minded either individually or collectively start your own website where you can moderate the discussion and filter out those you don't want to participate?

David

It's certainly conceivable to think that when one is on a forum exchanging posts about a subject, that other posters who only post to inflame or ridicule would be in some fashion, made aware that those posts are not acceptable. If those posters persisted, it would be nice to see that they are somehow, in some way, shown that their posts are not acceptable.

This is Jun's site. But, as Mike noted, conversations tend to dry up and go elsewhere (as Aikido Journal history has shown. And as AikiWeb is trending towards) when things are not, in some manner - even small, held accountable.

Guess we'll see what the future holds...

Mark

gdandscompserv
10-07-2007, 02:41 PM
Okay, what is the website address for "QiJin".
It's secret. Only Mike knows.

DH
10-07-2007, 04:29 PM
Well, the moderation of Aikido Journal was never suspect and the facts have been misrepresented here.
It was the OVER moderation of AIkido journal -along with many coplaints about it- that led to many leaving, same with E-Budo. You are not going to get away with Justin or Ricky type behavour there and not get called on it. You would be asked to leave, booted off, or shamed off -provided of course you had the intelligence to be ashamed in the first place.

Lest it escape anyones attention this is a site Jun created for AIKIDO. We are guests. Does he HAVE to agree that what we have been discussing is even related to aikido? When most everyone here didn't even believe this stuff it existed at all. Come on guys.....I think he has been accomodating as hell, and trying to work with those who are interested all while obviously not completely agreeing himself. Otherwise all these topics WOULD be in the Aikido section wouldnlt they?
Yet here you sit with a venue to discuss what ever you wish to discuss.
Hmfff.

dps
10-07-2007, 04:33 PM
It's certainly conceivable to think that when one is on a forum exchanging posts about a subject, that other posters who only post to inflame or ridicule would be in some fashion, made aware that those posts are not acceptable. If those posters persisted, it would be nice to see that they are somehow, in some way, shown that their posts are not acceptable.

Exactly why you or Mike or whoever should have a website where you guys can discuss this without having to put up with the ones who poop on your discussions.

David

dps
10-07-2007, 04:37 PM
Yet here you sit with a venue to discuss what ever you wish to discuss.
Hmfff.

And if you don't like the comments that some of the posters make in response to your ideas, don't put the blame on Jun or Stan or anyone else, take control and have your own website where everyone can read but you control who posts.

David

Mike Sigman
10-07-2007, 04:52 PM
It was the OVER moderation of AIkido journal -along with many coplaints about it- that led to many leaving, same with E-Budo. You are not going to get away with Justin or Ricky type behavour there and not get called on it. You would be asked to leave, booted off, or shamed off -provided of course you had the intelligence to be ashamed in the first place. Er.... I don't know if you've read some of the complaints, but it was more about anonymous and BS posters, Dan. Besides, given that you yourself were called by some people and pulled all your old posts, your commentary is suspect. At least have the courtesy to recognize that. Lest it escape anyones attention this is a site Jun created for AIKIDO. We are guests. Oh, stoppit. QiJin is a private list and you've done your best to get people to forward the stuff to you. You need to remember the saying from my old geometry teacher, Earl "Redman" Huggins,... "when you're well off, stay well off and keep your mouth shut.". Hmfff.Indeed.

Justin, Ricky, and Skaggs are 3 of the worst offenders. Watching them trying to shift the blame to other issues is interesting. None of them apparently have even a clue that people are tired of them and are probably finding out who their teachers are (like some guy named "Gelum" for Skaggs). Everyone who stands up tall has his teachers looked into, right Dan?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Dan Austin
10-07-2007, 05:36 PM
Exactly why you or Mike or whoever should have a website where you guys can discuss this without having to put up with the ones who poop on your discussions.

David

In theory, but it's not that easy. People come to this site because it's popular and there are a lot of experienced martial artists here. You can't just pop up a new site and quality people will magically appear in numbers. Also not everyone has the time or funds to do this. You have a good site here already. You also have well-respected people who are interested in the sorts of things Mike and a few others talk about - if I'm not mistaken, Rob's teacher will be giving a seminar at George Ledyard's dojo - so it seems pretty straightforward that to keep the quality up it's worth slapping a few knuckleheads who make people not want to post. I may not agree with or comprehend everything Mike says, but it's at least interesting and he's obviously an experienced guy who's serious about doing his thing. All I see Justin doing is following him around and nipping at his heels like one of those annoying little dogs that shakes and pees a lot. In my experience, serious martial artists have a low tolerance for that, and rightfully so. It takes years of toil for anyone to get to a point where they can share potentially valuable insights, and those are the guys I want to hear from. What is the point of letting them be driven off by people that sound like annoying, disrespectful teenagers? It lessens the quality of content if it's reduced to "I had an aiki moment with my cat" posts and the serious martial artists go underground. If I were a mod here I'd ask him not to respond to Mike or comment on the topic, period, and if he can't hack that, then boot him off.

gdandscompserv
10-07-2007, 07:03 PM
It sounds like we have some really serious martial artist's here. ;) As I see it, everyone is welcome. Whether it be 'aiki cat' moments or 'I'm a serious martial artist' comments. There is an ignore feature on this forum that one can use to filter out comments by posters one doesn't approve of. If you don't know how to use it, ask Jun. I'm sure he'll be happy to assist. That would probably be more effective than jumping up and down insisting that you have more of a right to make comments than others do. There is also a Voices of Experience forum for those who can cut the mustard, so to speak. You don't like my comments? don't read them. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Or like David suggests, create your own forum.:D

Mike Sigman
10-07-2007, 07:13 PM
You don't like my comments? don't read them. Seems pretty straightforward to me. How about if you get some control over yourself and see if you can contribute something meaningful instead of your usual in-your-face bs? Why should you be so egocentric as to think that you're immune from having some class or common sense? Personally, I take you at your word... you represent what a lot of "Aikido Teachers" are. And I suspect that it's embarrassing for many of them.... but you so far have ignored all their diplomatic exhortations.

BTW..... since you "teach Aikido", why don't you post who your teachers are who gave you the permission to teach?

Mike Sigman

dps
10-07-2007, 08:03 PM
In theory, but it's not that easy. People come to this site because it's popular and there are a lot of experienced martial artists here. You can't just pop up a new site and quality people will magically appear in numbers. Also not everyone has the time or funds to do this. You have a good site here already.

Yes, it is a good site thanks to the hard work of Jun who deserves every poster's respect and consideration when posting.

n my experience, serious martial artists have a low tolerance for that, and rightfully so. It takes years of toil for anyone to get to a point where they can share potentially valuable insights, and those are the guys I want to hear from. What is the point of letting them be driven off by people that sound like annoying, disrespectful teenagers? It lessens the quality of content if it's reduced to "I had an aiki moment with my cat" posts and the serious martial artists go underground.

Serious mature martial artists know not to respond in kind to annoying, disrespectful people. It does not deter them from what they do and makes you look like one of them.

If I were a mod here I'd ask him not to respond to Mike or comment on the topic, period, and if he can't hack that, then boot him off.

Okay, but this is Jun's website and you post here because of his hard work, time, perseverance, and money. To respond in kind who are annoying to you shows disrespect to Jun.
In all seriousness and no malice intended a website by Mike, or yourself might be received better than you think by the martial arts community and you could control the posting.

David

Mike Sigman
10-07-2007, 08:10 PM
Serious mature martial artists know not to respond in kind to annoying, disrespectful people.This is the part that interests me. The ad hoc insulters like David, Ricky, and Justin actually think that it's someone else's character failure if they respond to the insults. As long as they can contrive to obliquely mask the insults so that Jun can't recognize it as "ad hominem", they think it's OK to insult. Perhaps so, as a matter of fact. That's why I think people should choose another forum like Aikido Journal to post serious discussions on. It's out of control on AikiWeb when the perpetrators are blaming people for reacting to the insults! ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

George S. Ledyard
10-07-2007, 08:52 PM
IYou also have well-respected people who are interested in the sorts of things Mike and a few others talk about - if I'm not mistaken, Rob's teacher will be giving a seminar at George Ledyard's dojo - so it seems pretty straightforward that to keep the quality up it's worth slapping a few knuckleheads who make people not want to post.
Yes, Akuzawa Sensei will be at our dojo in Nov, although last I heard, it was just about full. I've had the good fortune to train briefly with Mike and he certainly can do extraordinary things. I haven't trained with Dan but I have friends who did and their reports were quite positive.

I think we should really try to get past this perpetual harping by parties who have absolutely no direct experience of any of these people. If you feel the need to doubt, be informed and get on the mat with these folks. If you don't want to put your money where your mouth is, just shut up.

Mike wrote a very nice piece for AJ and someone wanted to have a discussion of the points he raised. If you don't have something positive to contribute, stay out of it.

Look, I am an Aikido teacher. I travel around and I see a wide variety of Aikido. Most of what is out there is pretty poor. People may not want to hear that but it's true. I am on record as pointing out that, you could master what Dan, Mike, and Akuzawa are doing and you wouldn't necessarily be doing Aikido... but there's no doubt in my mind that the people doing Aikido would ALL benefit from doing some sort of training along these lines.

Whether you personally like these guys or not, whether you find their ideas persuasive or not, at least they are out there teaching and willing to put themselves out there for all to see. So far I have never had a single person come up to me and say that they had gone to see one of these fellows and come away thinking they were full of it... On the other hand, the consistent nay sayers who turn all of these discussions into back biting sessions are folks I have never heard of who trained with, well I guess I'm not sure who they trained with...

I think that, while it's useful to have participation at all levels on the forums, it's also ridiculous to have folks who clearly have no clue arguing with people who have a great deal of experience and have some depth to their opinions.

On the other hand, I have also pointed out that there is an ignore button on this forum and it works wonderfully. Someone was kind enough to name the "big three" offenders... so put them on the ignore list. I have done so and my "wa" is far more harmonious than it was. You guys who do know something and are capable of having a meaningful discussion do not have to knee jerk a counter response every time some bozo posts. It just feeds them... I read whole discussions now and the posts by these fellows are simply blanked out... So I only read the posts by people I wish to hear from.. Now if I can persuade you guys to stop responding to these little minded annoyances, we can get the forum back to something with some real meat on it and not something I feel I need to trim 90% off to get to the good stuff.

gdandscompserv
10-07-2007, 09:28 PM
Someone was kind enough to name the "big three" offenders... so put them on the ignore list. I have done so and my "wa" is far more harmonious than it was.That's it. You're off my seminar attendance list.:p
Seriously though. It is unimportant to me whether someone likes me or not. Some people like me and some don't. I don't fret about it. It also doesn't affect my training. I still occasionly attend a dojo where the instructor and I have had a disagreement. I attend seminars there and encourage those I train with to do the same. I train for my benefit, not others. Similar to the reasons I post here. I realize I have little or nothing to contribute to anyone's knowledge of aikido. I have never suggested otherwise. But I also will not 'shutup' just because someone does not like my comments. The same as I will not stop training just because someone thinks my aikido sucks or deem me not worthy. It's my path, not yours.:p

Dan Austin
10-07-2007, 09:30 PM
I think that, while it's useful to have participation at all levels on the forums, it's also ridiculous to have folks who clearly have no clue arguing with people who have a great deal of experience and have some depth to their opinions.

George,

Even though I only quoted the above, I say hear hear! to your entire post. I couldn't have said it better. The ignore function was not obvious to me, but I will immediately investigate its use.

gdandscompserv
10-07-2007, 10:16 PM
I would like to add that I do read most everything that Mike, Dan, Rob, George and other's write as I find great value in them. I also do not doubt any of their abilities or knowledge. So don't be surprised when I show up at their seminars. The last time I attended one of George's seminar's he didn't throw me out. Perhaps that is only because he didn't recognise me. I don't look like my avatar.:D I'm also pretty confident they aren't going to quit posting because of the likes of the big three offenders. I have a feeling that their skin is at least as thick as mine.

Gernot Hassenpflug
10-08-2007, 03:48 AM
If it is important to you, Mike and like minded individuals that these conversation are discussed in a controlled forum on the internet, why don't you, Mike and those who are like minded either individually or collectively start your own website where you can moderate the discussion and filter out those you don't want to participate?
David
Is that a rhetorical question LOL The answer is: it's already been done and ongoing. Mike and a few others who know a lot more than the rest of us are just being nice and reaching out---not to those that are too far gone (in age or mental attitude) to help, but the younger people who might happen on this public site and get an interest early on.

SeiserL
10-08-2007, 05:22 AM
Maybe Stanley is able to control Aikido Journal now, so it's time to give him another try?
A great suggestion.
Another (not instead of) great place to discuss Aikido.
BTW, some of us never left just because we didn't agree with a few people.

SeiserL
10-08-2007, 01:06 PM
IMHO, it was not the content that people lost interest in, and it wasn't AikiWeb's fault. You receive the energy you give out.

gdandscompserv
10-08-2007, 06:29 PM
You receive the energy you give out.
Lynn,
You are so right. Thanks for reminding me.

giriasis
10-08-2007, 09:35 PM
Jun, in my opinion, does a fine job moderating this board.

I don't see the problem. Then again, I don't bother with all the ki threads. They seem to go on forever and revolve around a few personalities. But even we I do pop in, I still do not notice a problem with trolling like we once found on AikidoJournal. (BTW, I think Stanely was in the right to step in with a strong hand. The BS that once occurred there really did had to stop - including those who fed the trolls. THAT was trolling.)

I think I would like to reiterate someone else's comment that just because someone disagrees with you or expresses a strong opinion doesn't make them a troll. I've learned to stop taking things personally a long time ago and purposefully don't get in tit-for-tat type debates that go on forever. If I do post on a controversial issue, I usually let it go after a while. If the discussion has moved on, I let whatever response I received go and let that person have the last word. It's just not worth it to get upset or in a ridiculous argument.

It's only the internet afterall.

Ecosamurai
10-09-2007, 07:36 AM
but there's no doubt in my mind that the people doing Aikido would ALL benefit from doing some sort of training along these lines..

My point in all this has usually been that what George just said is the same as what Koichi Tohei said decades ago, and is probably exactly what O Sensei meant when he was heard to say "this is not my aikido".

I've always found it odd that people who I view as 'outside' of aikido have decided to descend upon aikiweb and educate us all about what we're doing wrong. Never had a problem with what they've been saying, I agree with them about most of it (though I think Mike Sigman professes to know more about ki aikido than he actually does, but I don't mean to insult him by saying so, just happens that way sometimes, which is my fault really).

In any case, I found it irritating when people presume to tell me I'm wrong even though I'm agreeing with them, which I suppose is what I've done myself on more than one occasion. Jun has always been a very liberal moderator, right from back on aikido-l, and some of the people trolling here are lightweights by comparison to aikido-l in the late 1990s.

I think the fault is not with Jun's moderating, or Stan's over on aikidojornal, if you go and look around on other martial arts forums there is always this BS, but aikido is one of the worst arts for it IMO, you don't get it over on kendo-world really. You get it on forums which discuss multiple arts such as E-Budo, MAPlanet etc, single art forums tend not to have it except for aikido. The way of harmony. Yeah right.

We're all guilty, not just the 'main offenders' or the 'light-weights' or 'heavy-weights'. All of us. Leave Jun alone, he's doing a great job.

Mike

G DiPierro
10-09-2007, 08:28 AM
I've always found it odd that people who I view as 'outside' of aikido have decided to descend upon aikiweb and educate us all about what we're doing wrong.Why is that odd? How could people who are inside aikido tell what you is wrong with aikido? If they are the doing the same thing as you, then they don't know what's wrong with it. When it's people inside aikido talking about what's wrong with the other guys, it's just reduced to factionalism: Ki-Soc guys saying we need more ki training or Shodokan guys saying we need more resistance training. If someone finds that argument convincing, which happens quite often, they just switch styles and think that they have found a better form of aikido.

The problem is that you can't do this when you learn something from outside of aikido that is better than what you were doing before. It threatens your identity as an aikido practitioner, and most people who have a lot invested in the art will ignore it because "it's not aikido" and just go back to what they were doing. Some people will try to learn it and incorporate it into their aikido, but the success of this will depend on a lot of factors, including one's position in the dojo or organization and how much the organization will support this new direction of training. Others will quit aikido and just do the other art, and few will start their own art that is some kind of hybrid of the two. This is actually what Tohei did as a result of his Tempukai training, even though he still called his art aikido.

I don't know what you are doing and I only know what these other guys are doing from what they have written, so I suppose it's possible you are already doing what they are doing. I doubt it, but you can never settle that debate until you put your hands on someone. What they have done that you have not is put themselves out there and said that what they do is better than what everyone else is doing and then backed that up in person, so far with outstanding reviews from a number of people. You can come along after the fact and say you were already doing the same thing but it's not going to be convincing to anyone unless you can back it up in person.

That's why I don't get involved in these discussions. I know what I can do, but these guys don't, and I similarly don't know what they can do (beyond a rough idea from what they have written and the videos that are available). It seems to be pretty much impossible to participate meaningfully in these threads without some kind of shared physical context. One person can say the sky is blue and the other can say no, it's red, and the third can say no, it's gray, but unless they are all standing there looking at the same sky they are not going to get anywhere. And of course we all know that you cannot tell what color the sky is from watching a video unless you have already seen a lot of skies and know what to look for.

Ecosamurai
10-09-2007, 09:17 AM
It threatens your identity as an aikido practitioner, and most people who have a lot invested in the art will ignore it because "it's not aikido" and just go back to what they were doing.

Doesn't threaten my identity as an aikido guy so I reckon you're probably assuming things about me. My aikido teacher has always said "show me something better than the aikido I do and I'll go and do that instead", I agree with him on that point. I've found people in other arts better than me, I've yet to find someone I consider to be better than my aikido teacher, and I have been looking. I'm still looking.

I doubt it, but you can never settle that debate until you put your hands on someone. What they have done that you have not is put themselves out there and said that what they do is better than what everyone else is doing and then backed that up in person, so far with outstanding reviews from a number of people. You can come along after the fact and say you were already doing the same thing but it's not going to be convincing to anyone unless you can back it up in person.

That is simply untrue. What they have done that I have not is allowed those who have visited them to say nice things about them on the internet. I don't bother with that. Also most of them happen to have the advantage of living on the same continent as each other which certainly facilitates travel an cross training. Were anyone to feel like coming to where I live and practising with me I'd be quite happy for them to write a report of what it was like. I'm quite happy to 'back it up in person', I have never pretended I'm as good at 'it' as some who post here, but I am content to say I have some ability in this area, enough to make reasonable constructive comments that is. I also do not have the funds (having not been paid for a year) to travel far to other peoples places of training. So again, you're making assumptions.

That's why I don't get involved in these discussions.

Yes, I can see you not bothering to get involved here.... ;)

I know what I can do, but these guys don't, and I similarly don't know what they can do (beyond a rough idea from what they have written and the videos that are available). It seems to be pretty much impossible to participate meaningfully in these threads without some kind of shared physical context.

There are those that have that shared physical context, who comment on things, and yet get told they don't have that shared physical context by people who admit they don't have that shared physical context with which to make a fair comment.

Mike

G DiPierro
10-09-2007, 09:54 AM
Doesn't threaten my identity as an aikido guy so I reckon you're probably assuming things about me.I meant "you" as in people in general, not you specifically. I try to use third-person terms like "one", even though they can sound a bit stuffy, so that people can't read them the wrong way. Not sure why everybody takes things so personally around here.

That is simply untrue. What they have done that I have not is allowed those who have visited them to say nice things about them on the internet. I don't bother with that. ... Were anyone to feel like coming to where I live and practising with me I'd be quite happy for them to write a report of what it was like. I'm quite happy to 'back it up in person', I have never pretended I'm as good at 'it' as some who post here, but I am content to say I have some ability in this area, enough to make reasonable constructive comments that is.Point is that it doesn't matter what you think you know or even whether you are willing to back it up. Unless you actually have established some kind of shared physical context you aren't going to get anywhere in this discussion. You can keep trying but I think you will keep getting the same result. The fact that circumstances prevent you from meeting someone doesn't give your arguments any more weight. People here still want to feel it to believe it. Personally I'd be happy to see a video of what you can do, and to some extent I would even prefer that over some glowing third-hand report, but for some people I guess that's not enough.

Yes, I can see you not bothering to get involved here.... ;)I'm not going to get involved in the technical discussion for the reasons I gave. Meta-discussions like this are a different matter.

Ecosamurai
10-09-2007, 11:42 AM
Point is that it doesn't matter what you think you know or even whether you are willing to back it up. Unless you actually have established some kind of shared physical context you aren't going to get anywhere in this discussion.

I'm aware of that rather (IMO) petty distinction. I'd personally prefer that people adopt a similar attitude to mine: Take someone at their word unless they are proven otherwise.

We are supposed to be about harmony after all.

I've never doubted that anyone who posts here and claims to know what all the internal stuff is about does actually know what they are talking about, though I may disagree with them or their apparent motives for saying certain things, or sometimes on their interpretation of certain things. I've also found that when disagreeing with someone, one of their rather childish tactics IMO is to immediately play the card you just did.

Were I to ask them to, I suppose some of my students who read this forum might be willing to attest to what I can do (I've never claimed to be a great master of 'it'). Likewise the people here who have met and trained with my teacher could possibly attest to his skill, some people have left him and may prefer not to be drawn into such a discussion for political reasons, but I doubt that anyone of them, even if they have had a falling out would ever say he doesn't have 'it'. The thing is, I'd never ask or encourage them to do so, because I see it as irrelevant, and because I'm happy to accept people at their word. This is after all an internet discussion forum, it's all basically armchair budo. If someone wants to lie about their skill, fine, they're only kidding themselves about what they can and can't do, it doesn't change the reality of their ability, or mine, or yours.

Regards

Mike

SeiserL
10-09-2007, 12:59 PM
Leave Jun alone, he's doing a great job.

IMHO, absolutely.
He is not the one pissing in the stream and then complaining that the water smells bad.
Its not his job to clean up after us.
I was going to say that we need to grow up, but then I realized I was talking to a bunch of people who parade around in white pajamas (some with black pleated a-line pantaloons) pretending they are on a warrior's quest in the name of spirituality. Oh wait a minute, that's me.

MM
10-09-2007, 03:28 PM
IMHO, absolutely.


Yes, I agree. He is doing a great job.

For me, it's just frustrating sometimes when threads are derailed. That's me.


Its not his job to clean up after us.


Wellllll, It is his house and he is the owner and he invited us in as guests. So, unfortunately, yeah, he does have to clean up after us sometimes. In that regard, it's our fault for the mess. And for any mess I've left, I apologize, Jun.


I was going to say that we need to grow up, but then I realized I was talking to a bunch of people who parade around in white pajamas (some with black pleated a-line pantaloons) pretending they are on a warrior's quest in the name of spirituality. Oh wait a minute, that's me.

Ha! LOL! Me, too. One day I might grow up. :)

Mark

G DiPierro
10-09-2007, 04:47 PM
I'm aware of that rather (IMO) petty distinction. I'd personally prefer that people adopt a similar attitude to mine: Take someone at their word unless they are proven otherwise.

We are supposed to be about harmony after all.

I've never doubted that anyone who posts here and claims to know what all the internal stuff is about does actually know what they are talking about, though I may disagree with them or their apparent motives for saying certain things, or sometimes on their interpretation of certain things. I've also found that when disagreeing with someone, one of their rather childish tactics IMO is to immediately play the card you just did.Mike, I'm not playing any cards here. I was only trying to explain to you why you are getting the response you are getting. As I see it, the people who started this discussion by saying "we can do something you cannot" and then backed that claim up in person have a right to set the ground rules for the discussion they started. It doesn't matter whether you or I agree with them or not: they have put themselves out there and proved that they know what they are talking about. You haven't. If they don't want to hear from anyone who has not done that then why do you have a problem with it? Why should they have any responsibility to adopt your attitude? What have you contributed to the discussion other than coming along after the fact and saying that you already do the same thing they have been discussing? Why should they all of a sudden change their ground rules to accommodate you?

Most people who don't agree with or care for the premise of these discussions just ignore the threads: that's why they are in their own separate forum. If you want to people to play by your rules, start a discussion of your own and demonstrate that you have something of value to say. The people in these threads might not participate (or perhaps they might), but if you actually know what you are talking about I'm sure somebody will be willing to join in. Then you will be in a lot better position to expect people to accept your terms.

Ecosamurai
10-10-2007, 02:34 AM
Why should they have any responsibility to adopt your attitude?

Because contrary to what you have said/think, they didn't start this debate. It is in fact decades old, this isn't even the first time it's been discussed on the internet. Why should they 'set the ground rules' in a debate they didn't start?

Mike

G DiPierro
10-10-2007, 04:12 AM
Because contrary to what you have said/think, they didn't start this debate. It is in fact decades old, this isn't even the first time it's been discussed on the internet. Why should they 'set the ground rules' in a debate they didn't start?

The bottom line is that a few people came on this forum around the same time and all claimed that there were certain things missing from aikido and that they could demonstrate these things and why they were important to aikido, which they all did in a manner that is widely accepted as being valid. You then came along and claimed that you can also do these things and that they have been discussed before.

Perhaps you are right, but how can anyone know? You are asking us to take your word for it, and in this discussion that standard is not acceptable. It doesn't matter what the standard was in a similar discussion that took place somewhere else on the internet ten years ago; in the discussion taking place right here, right now, the bar has been set at demonstrating what you can do in person.

We can keep going back and forth as long as you want, and you come up with any number of reasons for why you think the standard of credibility should be something other than that, but I don't think anyone who has met that standard (or worked with someone who has) is going to give much weight to what anyone who has not met that standard says about this subject. I'm not saying this from the perspective of even having met any of these people myself. I'm just telling you that this is what they have made clear to everyone who wants to discuss this subject with them. If they don't have the kind of evidence that you know what you are talking about that they require, and which they have provided of themselves, they won't listen to you.

You can complain about that all you want but I don't think it's going to change. If you don't like this standard then I suggest you avoid discussing this particular topic with these particular people. You've made your opinion known, and if it turns out that you can do what they can do, then when you have proven that in person to their satisfaction you can come back and brag about how you were right all along.

Honestly I don't see why it matters so much to you that they listen to what you have to say on the subject. If being a part of this discussion with this group of people were that important to you, I suppose you would go out of your way to make arrangements to meet their standard of proof. If you can't or don't want to do that, then I don't see why it should be so hard for you to avoid participating in this particular discussion with these particular people. It's not like it's the only aikido discussion taking place on the internet.

Ecosamurai
10-10-2007, 05:01 AM
Honestly I don't see why it matters so much to you that they listen to what you have to say on the subject.

It doesn't really. I only post here when the computer is chewing on numbers and all I can do is wait for it to finish. Plenty of people listen to what I say about this subject, I couldn't care less whether people on the internet do too.

The only point I've been making is that there's more to this than what a few loud people on the internet have to say. If you can't or don't wish to see that then that's your problem really.

Computers done. See you after Christmas maybe.

Mike

G DiPierro
10-10-2007, 06:57 AM
I only post here when the computer is chewing on numbers and all I can do is wait for it to finish. Plenty of people listen to what I say about this subject, I couldn't care less whether people on the internet do too.

The only point I've been making is that there's more to this than what a few loud people on the internet have to say.That point is both obvious and irrelevant. Nobody can ever know everything there is to know about any subject. However, unlike you, those "loud people" have made significant efforts to share some of whatever information they have with others via the internet and in person, often despite the opposition of those who would prefer that they did not. They take this forum seriously as a medium for the exchange of information. By your own admission, you do not. I suppose that explains a lot.

Ecosamurai
10-10-2007, 07:35 AM
However, unlike you, those "loud people" have made significant efforts to share some of whatever information they have with others via the internet and in person

This will be my last post on this subject mostly because of people like yourself (i.e. the reason I don't take this forum too seriously). Read the forum and you'll see I've done that too, made quite an effort to share the information I have on the internet. I've made an effort to share these things in person also and to practice with those who are supposed to have these skills. Haven't done this much for a few years for financial reasons mostly. But I have done it and I continue to try to do so (well I will be resuming this practice next year once I've finished the PhD).

Basically, you know nothing about me or what I do as far as my training goes, but, typically have chosen to believe what you want anyway. My contributions to these discussions have usually been along the lines of broad agreement with those who post on the subject of internal skills, disagreement about some of the details. Attempts to explain what I know, and clashes with regard to the motivation of people I perceive as trying to enlighten all us dumbass aikidoka about how to practice our own art correctly. An attitude I find highly arrogant even if I happen to agree with most of the points raised. But you already knew all that right?

In short, and I mean this most sincerely. I think you are full of s*!t.

Mike

akiy
10-10-2007, 08:30 AM
Too many personal attacks in this thread. Thread closed.

-- Jun