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John Matsushima
09-24-2007, 11:22 AM
Is there a way to prevent uke from rolling out of a shihonage pin? How did shihonage become a pinning technique anyway? Maybe it isn't meant to be a pinning technique?

Marie Noelle Fequiere
09-24-2007, 11:44 AM
Isn't that your instructor's job to answer that?

ChrisHein
09-24-2007, 11:54 AM
I've never seen anyone roll out of a shihonage pin, and our guys go pretty hard.

I've seen people roll out before the pin. To fix that nage just needs to step back when he feels uke turning.

John Matsushima
09-24-2007, 11:58 AM
"Isn't that your instructor's job to answer that?"

Well, then if we all took that route, then there wouldn't be any AIKIWEB, would there? I am posting my question here to learn from the experiences of others. NEXT!

Ron Tisdale
09-24-2007, 12:06 PM
I don't know if there is a way to prevent a skilled grappler from finding a way to roll out of anything! ;)

Two things that can help:

1) give uke a concussion when you slam their head into the mat. ;) Not easy to do everytime, especially since new partners will become rare rather quickly, old partners will tend to run when they see you coming, and it can be difficult to get that level of control over strong, resisting partners who want to throw YOU on YOUR head.

2) When you pin, make use of the fourth control pressure point to get uke to keep their hips up off the mat. If their weight is limited to their head/shoulders and toes, it makes it hard for them to do much. But pain compliance is risky as a primary means of accomplishing pretty much anything. There are some structural componants to this type of control, but I'd feel silly trying to discuss it in an intelligent way.

Best,
Ron

Basia Halliop
09-24-2007, 12:13 PM
If they do manage to roll out, you may find you're decently set up for some kind of kotegaeshi variation.

gdandscompserv
09-24-2007, 12:17 PM
"Isn't that your instructor's job to answer that?"

Well, then if we all took that route, then there wouldn't be any AIKIWEB, would there? I am posting my question here to learn from the experiences of others. NEXT!
Me thinks Marie hasn't had her coffee this morning.:D

gdandscompserv
09-24-2007, 12:30 PM
I don't know if there is a way to prevent a skilled grappler from finding a way to roll out of anything! ;)
Or a skilled aikidoist for that matter.;)

odudog
09-24-2007, 01:13 PM
I'd say apply more pain to the pinned arm. There are several ways of doing this and you need to investigate what is missing in your version. Secondly, if your uke is so flexiable and can tolerate the pain, then a back up is to use your knee in the arm pit/rib area to help pin the person down.

mathewjgano
09-24-2007, 01:15 PM
Maybe it isn't meant to be a pinning technique?

I've been pinned pretty well by it...not that I'm necessarily a good measure of when someone is doing it correctly though. One method I've experienced was that when a really good pin has been done on me, my hips MUST go up in order to relieve some of the tension. I've also heard that using their arm (from pinned position) to cut across their head can help too. I tend to use my free arm to continue the elbow along as if I were going to pin it to the ground too, though being careful not to tear muscles (some folks are more limber than others).
Still...it's hard to give pointers by script and I'd agree your sensei or sempai might be able to see things more clearly. Ultimately, in my limited experience, if a pin isn't working, you don't have them over-extended enough somewhere.
Take care,
Matt

Marie Noelle Fequiere
09-24-2007, 01:19 PM
Me thinks Marie hasn't had her coffee this morning.:D

Was my post aggressive? I certainly did - and still do not - think so. Is it forbidden to be curious?
Anyway, I apologize for thinking that all instructors are like mine, who answers questions. I may seek more opinions on the Aďkiweb latter, but my primary source of information is Sensei.
Again, I am sorry I have a cooperative instructor.:confused:

Nick P.
09-24-2007, 04:11 PM
In my experience, there are two broad types of shiho nage; the type that throws you down, and the type that throws you away.

By down, I mean right-the-explitive-down, to where your heel is. Round, but down.
By away, I mean towards the wall. Round, but away.

The former, when done well, goes straight into a pin.
The latter, less so.

My $0.02 CDN, now worth the same as US$.

Aikibu
09-25-2007, 12:00 AM
I found a knee in the solar plexus works well on occasion. You kind of have to stay connected through out the entire technique in order to "feel" for an attempt to roll out of the "pin"

We're taught to always Roll out of the pin if the Nage does not stay connected and continue the attack. :)

William Hazen

darin
09-25-2007, 02:26 AM
When uke is on his back sit down sit on his chest/ribs then push his elbow towards his temple while pulling sideways in the shihonage lock.

Ron Tisdale
09-25-2007, 07:33 AM
That last one is a good one...I actually just learned that method from the guys at the Itten dojo near Harrisburg. Budd can elaborate on it.

The other thing to keep in mind as uke is that if the throw into the pin is competant, shite is in a dominant position to strike, knee, deploy a weapon, etc. If uke chooses to scramble at that point, uke is already working at a serious disadvantage, and it's likely that you will have shite with a knee on your chest raining down blows. Which blows...if you get what I mean...

:D Best,
Ron

aikispike
09-25-2007, 09:34 AM
Is there a way to prevent uke from rolling out of a shihonage pin? How did shihonage become a pinning technique anyway? Maybe it isn't meant to be a pinning technique?

I find two opportunities for escape in shihonage. First after shite/tori has shifted direction and is attempting to lock uke before throwing. The second is after the throw while on the ground at the pin.

I believe that you refer to the latter.

I find that what is important is that you setup the pin while uke is being thrown. That is, you need to extend your wrist so that the wrist and forearm are straight rather then have your wrist back. and you need to do this before uke is on the ground.

When uke is on the ground, with your wrist straight inline with your forearm, her elbow should be extended enough over her head that it is close to the mat. If her elbow is up hight and free next to her head she will be comfortable and happy and able to escape. With her elbow extended it will lock her shoulder better and somewhat suck in comfort, and she will be less inclined to attempt an escape. At the same time, your leg that is close to her should tight up against her side to prevent her from rolling. (If uke is really really flexible, forget the pin and atemi to the head.)

hope that makes sense. In general i dont attempt explaining techniques in email any more... its too hard to explain.

Spike

John Matsushima
09-25-2007, 09:38 AM
Thank you everyone for your input. I have considered the option of sitting on uke, but it seems to be a dangerous place to be. A person could then roll me over, or hook my neck with thier leg. If I lean forward to avoid this, then I am vulnerable to his other hand.

I agree that as uke rolls out, he does place himself in a very vulnerable position.

I'll have to keep working on it. Thanks again.

John

Bronson
09-25-2007, 09:42 AM
I find that what is important is that you setup the pin while uke is being thrown.

Awww, Spike beat me to it :D

The best pins I've ever experienced were being applied well before uke hit the ground.

Bronson

Ron Tisdale
09-26-2007, 07:29 AM
Agreed...and I've heard a 7th dan say much the same thing.

"Ron-san, you should already be pinning!"

Yikes,
Ron ;)

philippe willaume
09-26-2007, 11:44 AM
Hello
I would say the “proper” pin from shiho nague is not very reliable.
But we need to bear in mind that the shiho nague version we partice in training is relatively nice compare to the mean version of it. Uke does not have to wory so much about something being broken on him. So that need to be taken in considartion when you speak of escape.

Even though I thing the nice version is good enough to buy time to strike or to mount or to get a knee on the belly and beat him up or to have a little head start to get away
If all goes well it can stick but it is not likely on a resisting opponent.

Putting koshi in it and doing a less comfortable version than the “standard one” one will increase drastically your chance of pinning (if nothing go pop in the process) but the pin will be more like an ikkio (knee on the elbow version), nikkio and so on or kotegeishi depending how he lands.
phil

aikispike
09-26-2007, 03:58 PM
Hello
I would say the "proper" pin from shiho nague is not very reliable.

phil

Mine works reliably.

philippe willaume
09-27-2007, 05:00 AM
If by reliably you mean control him long enough to hit him or get a good head start. we do a agree.
If you mean getting someone stuck so that he can not escape when he actively try, like the pin you have you have with nikkio sankio pin (and some ikkio variations). I would say that you are not doing the standard pin.
That is pinning via the arm alone and that leaves him option to escape by the hips.

Even if you arch his spine, via the arm pin, and from the way you describe it we are using the same pin. He end up in a position no so different from "umpa", a bjjer or a wrestler can use that to get away.
But may be that is probably what you meant by uke being flexible.

You need at least a knee (or sitting) on the chest belly to prevent him to use his hips meaningfully and that position will help to keep the elbow down close to head an push the forearm outside. But we are quite far from the standard pin.

phil

Ron Tisdale
09-27-2007, 08:45 AM
Just use the knee on the elbow.

Best,
Ron

aikispike
09-27-2007, 10:52 AM
I would say that you are not doing the standard pin.
That is pinning via the arm alone and that leaves him option to escape by the hips.

phil

I dont know how standard my pin is, but I definitely dont only use the arm. I am using the arm, my weight, and my legs.

I pin the arm using a spiral movement away from uke's shoulder. (some people use a circular movement which i believe is less effective). At the end of the pin uke's hand is usually bent past the shoulder.

At the same time I am using the leg that is next to uke to prevent him from rolling. (because I am yoshinakan, my inside knee is up). The leg is helping the arm pin and keeping uke's inside shoulder pinned to the mat. Since most of my weight is on the arm and shoulder its hard to roll out.

The pin is really quite painful, and uke usually doesnt want to try rolling out.

If uke is stupidly flexible (i hate flexible people... its jealousy), the shoulder doesnt really pin, the leg doesnt help enough and uke can usually struggle out. But that is where atemi come is :)

philippe willaume
09-27-2007, 11:51 AM
I dont know how standard my pin is, but I definitely dont only use the arm. I am using the arm, my weight, and my legs.

I pin the arm using a spiral movement away from uke's shoulder. (some people use a circular movement which i believe is less effective). At the end of the pin uke's hand is usually bent past the shoulder.

At the same time I am using the leg that is next to uke to prevent him from rolling. (because I am yoshinakan, my inside knee is up). The leg is helping the arm pin and keeping uke's inside shoulder pinned to the mat. Since most of my weight is on the arm and shoulder its hard to roll out.

The pin is really quite painful, and uke usually doesnt want to try rolling out.

If uke is stupidly flexible (i hate flexible people... its jealousy), the shoulder doesnt really pin, the leg doesnt help enough and uke can usually struggle out. But that is where atemi come is :)

What I call the standard pin is the same as you describe but without the leg. I call it standard because from the seminar I attend (multi style) this is the most common.
that being said i agree with what you said though BJJers and wretsler seem to have a fair amount of stupidly flexible peoles.
:-)

me32dc
10-07-2007, 12:14 PM
This happened at our dojo a few weeks ago, we where pinned and tried to get out.
(yoshinkan btw)
If you have pinned with your right arm your left knee is down. This should be inline with your right foot. Your wrist should be inline with this too. This allows your body weight to hold the person down flat. When demonstrated on me it was impossible to get up no matter which way i tried to wriggle, twist turn etc.

Jeremy Lambert
10-07-2007, 08:37 PM
Drop weight on forearm with leg allowing you pin and free a hand to strike

Eric Joyce
10-08-2007, 01:29 PM
Is there a way to prevent uke from rolling out of a shihonage pin? How did shihonage become a pinning technique anyway? Maybe it isn't meant to be a pinning technique?

One method I have used in the past is when you finish executing shiho nage and you have your left knee up and your right knee down (I am looking at this from a Yoshinkan approach) I will spin on my right knee dropping my left knee to his face. I will put my left knee into ukes face/throat while maintaining that shiho nage lock. I will then torque on ukes wrist pulling it to my center. This usually stops them from wiggling out of shiho nage.

Ron Tisdale
10-08-2007, 01:43 PM
Yeah, sometimes relocates the joint for 'em, too. :D

Hey Eric, good to see you posting!

Best,
Ron

xuzen
10-09-2007, 07:59 AM
Is there a way to prevent uke from rolling out of a shihonage pin? How did shihonage become a pinning technique anyway? Maybe it isn't meant to be a pinning technique?

Yes.

During the drop, do not step forward. Just drop vertically on the spot. The feeling is like Osoto-otoshi.. i.e., the victim ( I mean uke) will have a feeling that his legs are swept under him.

Assuming the ground is solid asphalt and not padded mat, this will prevent uke from rolling out and also doing any other other physical activity for a while.

If there are padded mat... then following advices from post # 26, 27 & 28 are also fine.

Boon.

Brion Toss
10-09-2007, 01:49 PM
We were just working on this pin last night, and found that, in addition to much of what has been mentioned above, that the angle that nage forms to uke's body makes a big difference. This is because it affects the vector of force that nage's forearm makes to uke's upper arm. If nage is, for instance, 90° to uke, the forearm is pushing down, but also more or less away; any slight attempt at a roll will create slack, allowing further roll and escape. But if nage is 45° or so to uke, the vector pushes down and towards the top of their head. This rotates the elbow towards the mat, and not so much across uke's head. And all this, of course, is in addition to pinning the shoulder, taking the hand in a spiral down and away from the head, lining up your weight on the pinning hand, etc.
We were working mostly on a standing pin, but the same variables would apply to kneeling, with or without using uke as a knee cushion.

John Longford
10-15-2007, 12:05 PM
Try this. The Uke's hand should be tight to the shoulder, with both your hands on the arm. Your lower hand should be on the wrist and pinning down into the mat but with a slight twist towards the Uke. This puts your forearm in contact with the middle of the Uke's upper arm. Any attempt by the Uke to roll out applies pain to the nerve point in his/her arm (assuming they feel that they can move at all)
You can of course increase the twist (slowly) until the Uke taps anyway. Just remember that it is the Uke's turn next, unless like me, you are the teacher!

John Matsushima
10-23-2007, 06:57 AM
Thanks again for everyone's input. A friend of mine helped me work through this and found that keeping the shoulder pinned is key. Now, back to the dojo!

Michael Douglas
10-29-2007, 11:25 AM
Is there a way to prevent uke from rolling out of a shihonage pin? How did shihonage become a pinning technique anyway? Maybe it isn't meant to be a pinning technique?
Sit on them.

xuzen
10-30-2007, 10:11 PM
Sit on them.

Not good... sitting gives very little body contact, furthermore, your center of gravity is way too high up.

Boon.

Michael Douglas
11-01-2007, 01:53 PM
Not good... sitting gives very little body contact
I have a large arse.

xuzen
11-01-2007, 09:18 PM
I have a large arse.

Humbly bow down to large arse master....

Boon.

Paul Milburn
12-06-2007, 07:41 AM
Some styles allow for a breakfall "up and over" from shiho nage, others such as Yoshinkan style pin hard to the floor. Both are possible. The latter pin is often more self defence or aiki jitsu based styles of aiki.

Ed OConnor
12-06-2007, 11:54 AM
If you can, grabbing uke's thumb firmly with your outside hand should prevent all (except those who wish a broken thumb) from rolling out.

Peace,
eD