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adrian
12-07-2001, 03:04 AM
Hi this is my first post here. I keep reading about how you all use Aikido principles outside the dojo, and people talking about how great these principles are. What i think is that words are just words and until you haven't really felt it you can't talk about how great it is or say that you use Aikido outside the dojo. One more thing in the dojo i train (under Kanetsuka Sensei) we never talk about all this philosophy. Our sensei (one of the Kanetsuka sensei students) got his 1 dan after 10 years of training, but here i see people who count (!!!) the number of times they have come to dojo just to be able to test and get a new belt. And when they have a black belt (after a few years) and get beaten up by some kid they scream that Aikido is ineffective !!. O'sensei said that it takes minimum 10 years to learn the basics and get 1 dan. It seems to me that martial arts are going down because of people that want to get black belt but don't want to train hard for a long time.

ranZ
12-07-2001, 03:28 AM
Hi there Adrian,

Well, there's always good practicioners and bad practicioners in this world,
not just in aikido or MA. But just keep your positive mind open.

I have had experiences using aikido in the real world. Not with fighting though,
just a calm heart and mind. I'd say it was quite an experience for me.
In my dojo there is no belt ranks.. even worse huh :) we all just train because
we love to train.

love n peace V^^V

jk
12-07-2001, 08:47 AM
Hello Adrian,

With regards to joining the dan ranks, most of the meaning behind a black back resides in the dojo where that black belt trains, and in the student-teacher relationship. Standards for achieving a black belt vary according to organization, dojo, and instructor. Sounds horrible, doesn't it? I guess we'll just have to live with this, unless you personally have some means of coercion over all those other folks...

Secondly, you seem to imply that posters who discuss aikido principles in this forum don't have enough experience/gravitas to contribute something of worth. So in your opinion, what sort of person would be qualified to talk about aikido principles in this forum? I seem to be under the impression that Aikiweb is a place where all can speak up/contribute in some way, but I could be wrong...

Regards,

Andy
12-07-2001, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by adrian
O'sensei said that it takes minimum 10 years to learn the basics and get 1 dan.
Source please.

Here's the first ten years of study for one Aikikai shihan who studied under the founder:

1950: Starts aikido (March)
1950: 1st dan (September)
1953: 2nd dan
1954: 3rd dan
1955: 4th dan
1956: 5th dan
1957: 6th dan

He's still alive and teaching today and is 9th dan.

Erik
12-07-2001, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by adrian
O'sensei said that it takes minimum 10 years to learn the basics and get 1 dan.

That's an interesting comment. If he said that at some point, and I've never heard or read that he did, he sure didn't practice what he preached. It was more like 5th dan after 10 years with O'Sensei.

Edward
12-07-2001, 11:34 AM
According to what I read in Osensei's biographies, Dan grades were worthless for him and he distributed them as he pleased mostly for "public relations" purposes. It was not unusual for him to give 9th dan or 10th Dan to win over some talented member from other martial arts. The people he really cared about did not get their grades so easy. It is clear that his most favorite students were the uchideshis. Most of them never passed the 7dan-8dan ranks.

Read this relevant extract from Kurita Sensei's interview on Aikido online magazine.

"Sometimes a white-belt like myself would be teaching with 5th and 6th dans in the class! Somebody would often complain if that happened. O-Senseiís answer was that the uchideshi were the most qualified because they knew the "kaeshi waza," the secret techniques. He said he taught the "kaeshi waza" only to the uchideshi."

shihonage
12-07-2001, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by adrian
What i think is that words are just words and until you haven't really felt it you can't talk about how great it is or say that you use Aikido outside the dojo.

I can tell you one thing, Aikido is great to get out of unwanted hugs.

You just blend inside it like during one of the techniques, and end up standing behind the person.

Then you realize that their face is glued to the opposite wall. Ha ha. Okay so I lied about that last part.

Thalib
12-07-2001, 11:38 AM
Why are you so bitter Neagu-san?

We are all Aikidoka here, choosing Aikido as one of our path in life. At least so far, that's what I got the impression from all the people that posts here.

We are all trying to learn from each other. No matter if one agrees or disagrees with a post, there is always something that could be learned. There are different views of the same point.

Like Ran-chan said, keep an open mind. And like Kuo-san said, this is a place where we could contribute to the Aikido community, throughout the world even. This is a place where we can expand our knowledge.

I have once applied the principles of Aikido without even knowing it in the streets of Melbourne during night-time. Back then I didn't know Aikido, but after I took Aikido, I understood that I used tenkan/kaiten to get away from my attackers. There were two muggers that attacked me from behind, hit me on the back of the head, and grab both my shoulders and the bag that I was carrying. Seeing that I was prepared to face them (I took TKD back then), they move along, they didn't want to bother. This was because my spirit was bigger than the both of them combine, although they both were bigger than I was. This I understand now as extension of Ki. I got away with no injuries.

Please do not be quick to judge and generalize the people that post in this forum. They are all good people that are studying the art of Aikido. It doesn't matter if I agree or disagree with any of the posts, I always have something new to learn. Like I have learned soemthing from your post, Neagu-san. By writing the reply, I have discovered more about myself.

Aikido is a study of principles, not techniques. Techniques are just a mean of learning the principles of the art itself.

akiy
12-07-2001, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Edward
According to what I read in Osensei's biographies, Dan grades were worthless for him and he distributed them as he pleased mostly for "public relations" purposes. It was not unusual for him to give 9th dan or 10th Dan to win over some talented member from other martial arts.
I wrote the below for the Aikido-L mailing list in 1999:

Interestingly enough, I was just reading about the Butokukai and the dan ranking system in an article that was written by Kisshomaru Ueshiba sensei in Aikido Tankyo (a Japanese publication put out by Aikikai Hombu dojo) #15. Part of it went like this (my loose translation from the Japanese article):

"The aikido division of the All Japan Botokukai was established in the 17th year of the Showa period (1942). [snip]

"The Japan Butokukai was established in the 28th year of the Meiji era (1895) and had within it Judo and Kendo.

"Kaiso was not very fond of joining these kinds of organizations or groups, and he did not like getting in contact with other budo. For that, it seemed as though he did not care to join the Butokukai. [snip]

"The dan ranking system of aikido was created at the time aikido joined the Butokukai. Until then, it did not seem as though Kaiso was thinking about the dan ranking system. Because judo and kendo were both in the Butokukai and they both had the dan ranking system, there arose a need for aikido to do likewise.

"Although I was thinking about what to do [as far as giving out dan rankings] in the case of aikido, because it was so sudden, Kaiso pretty much decided himself. 'Tomiki and Inoue are probably around 8th dan. Hirai is still young, so he'll be 4th dan.' (Hirai was the representative for aikido in the Butokukai.)

"So it went like that. However, having our representative be only 4th dan wouldn't have been appropriate to the other budo, and it seemed that a person must be at least 5th dan to be in the Butokukai, Hirai was given a 6th dan."

-- Jun