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phil farmer
09-13-2007, 09:39 AM
My point in the last part of my post was that people do martial arts for many different reasons, not always self-defense or combat effectiveness. Does that make them less of a martial artist because their techniques are not as "effective", I don't think so. Instead, I would stand by my thoughts that they are simply doing a different budo, finding a way to end conflict without the fight.

Also, effectiveness is based on the person who might be involved and their motivation. A drunk doesn't motivate me the same way a person threatening my family does or the way a person with a knife to my throat does. I am a pacifist but I will do what I have to do to survive. In the dojo, the only way to learn effective techniques.....you have to practice. You run through a lot of uke if there are no rules. Makes for a very small dojo too. So, practice for combat effectiveness must be and ever increasing process of realism until you can develop the skills and confidence to deal with any situation you might face.

The earlier question about the undulation or wave motion in Yoseikan is a good one. Shihan Mochizuki is quick to point out he did not invent the wave, he discovered its presence in all of the martial arts. The way I describe it to my students is using the idea of popping someone with a towel. If you don't pull back slightly at the end, you get no pop, pull back slightly as the towel's tip is almost extended and you accelerate the tip of the towel.

This is the same for the punch, this slight pull back while the fist is still going forward gives tremendous acceleration and focuses the energy in a tighter pattern. It applies with a katana, a bo, a kick, a throw, even a joint lock. And, it can be a long wave, short wave or even a pulse of energy depending on how you control the movements.

Hope that helps.

Phil Farmer

darin
09-13-2007, 10:35 AM
Was the wave theory developed after the Yoseikan Budo, Auge and Seifukai split? Just wondering why those groups don't do it.

phil farmer
09-13-2007, 11:25 AM
Oh no, the wave theory is the work of Hiroo Mochizuki and has nothing to do with Auge Sensei or the Seifukai instructors. Shihan Mochizuki developed this idea many years ago. Honestly, the reason those two groups do not do it is that they refuse to communicate with Shihan Mochizuki and have absolutely not relationship, at this point in time, with Yoseikan Budo.

wildaikido
09-13-2007, 11:45 AM
Hi Phil,

I have always wanted to find out what this "wave" was. I was thinking of buying Hiroo's DVDs to see if he explained it.

You are correct, it sounds just like the snap of the hip used shotokan, or in Aikido, just expressed at the hand, as in other arts.

To be technical, the "wave" would actually increase the moment transferred and increase the impulse of the strike (etc). Please note that I am not trying to be facetious, just stating the correct terms.

When a car crashes into a stationary one, and it moves, this is a transfer of momentum. When an air bag inflates to slow you impact with the dash or steering wheel, this is a decrease in impulse.

Regards,

darin
09-13-2007, 12:02 PM
Its not easy to master. Roy tried to teach me the wave but he admits he struggles to do it. This could be due to his years of training in traditional karate.

The wave is different to the snap used in shotokan karate. In karate only your hips move. I think with the wave you use your whole body starting with your feet. A good example is throwing a ball or doing shot put or doing Yoseikan Budo :) (best example)

darin
09-13-2007, 12:09 PM
Oh no, the wave theory is the work of Hiroo Mochizuki and has nothing to do with Auge Sensei or the Seifukai instructors. Shihan Mochizuki developed this idea many years ago. Honestly, the reason those two groups do not do it is that they refuse to communicate with Shihan Mochizuki and have absolutely not relationship, at this point in time, with Yoseikan Budo.

Hows Roy doing? I haven't spoken with him for a while. I hope he expands to an area closer to me. Would love to get back into doing YWF one day.

darin
09-13-2007, 12:10 PM
forgot to say, its a shame that the Yoseikan world is so divided.

philippe willaume
09-13-2007, 12:40 PM
My point in the last part of my post was that people do martial arts for many different reasons, not always self-defense or combat effectiveness. Does that make them less of a martial artist because their techniques are not as "effective", I don't think so. Instead, I would stand by my thoughts that they are simply doing a different budo, finding a way to end conflict without the fight.


Hello phil

Well as long as you call it a vector for the omoto religion or you say to people it is martial art but that does not really work in that format should you be in need it.
It is fine by me.


Also, effectiveness is based on the person who might be involved and their motivation. A drunk doesn't motivate me the same way a person threatening my family does or the way a person with a knife to my throat does. I am a pacifist but I will do what I have to do to survive. In the dojo, the only way to learn effective techniques.....you have to practice. You run through a lot of uke if there are no rules. Makes for a very small dojo too. So, practice for combat effectiveness must be and ever increasing process of realism until you can develop the skills and confidence to deal with any situation you might face.
Phil Farmer
That is one way of looking at it.

There is way to train with intensity without breaking an inordinate amount of uke, but well there is a disclaimer that it is between consenting and responsible adults and no children or animal were hurt or inconvenienced in the making of the movie.

I do not think we can train as full on as MMA guys , not that I am in aikido because all the places were booked on the knitting course either, and MMA have some very good training principles.
Nonetheless Dan and Roman made some valid points, as did William, and I can see where the discrepancy is between what Romam and Dan see as aikido and what William and myself practice.
Personally I blame the lets call every thing budo/martial arts. If there is no practical application, it should not be called martial. There is enough unused Greco Latin gods names to suit anyone fancy.

This has nothing to do with aikikai, takemusu, tomeki, ki yoshinkan, Yoseikan or aikibudo, there is good and bad in every style.

phil (bis)

aikidoc
09-13-2007, 08:03 PM
Phil: I refer to what you are discussing as a kinetic chain. As all the parts enter the chain you get the towel snapping or dissipation of power at the end of the chain. Nolan Ryan had a great motion to his deliver that allowed him to throw very hard well into his forties-good kinetic chain of events.

Erick Mead
09-13-2007, 09:48 PM
Phil: I refer to what you are discussing as a kinetic chain. As all the parts enter the chain you get the towel snapping or dissipation of power at the end of the chain. Nolan Ryan had a great motion to his deliver that allowed him to throw very hard well into his forties-good kinetic chain of events.
Whips and chains. http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/but-why-7854/whips-and-chains-2960/

The wave is one of the best models for inyo integration in training. Saito-lineage weapons training uses a vibratory sensation at the conclusion of strikes similar to that seen in tekubi furi undo, which is very much in line with what Mochizuki discusses, and more widely done.

phil farmer
09-13-2007, 11:16 PM
Wow, how did this get to be its own thread? I don't mind, but boy was I surprised. I do agree with John (hello by the way) that the analogy of a pitch is a good one and is actually the first movement in the Yoseikan Budo kata tanto happo.

I would disagree a bit that it is like the shotokan hip movement, though it can and does develop from that good hip snap, it is the slight pull back of the hips at the end that accelarates the fist (foot, weapon, etc). Darin has it correct, the feet are key but not necessary as Mitchi Mochizuki has demonstrated the same movement while leaping into the air. Course, if I had spent my entire life doing it, I could probably do the same (yeah right!).

As to the issue of budo, I am sorry but I cannot catagorize aikido into the omote issue. Yes, O Sensei certainly included that in his aikido but, that would cover every martial way. At some level, it is a spiritual experience and expression of oneself, or one's beliefs, or one's emotions. It is why, after all, we each chose the path we did. And, an important reminder, "do" is the path, regardless of what words go before it. The Yoseikan emblem has a mountain, that represents all martial arts. Minoru Sensei often told students that this mountain had many paths to the top, but the goal was to arrive at the top. The emblem also always extends slightly beyond the circle around it because, as Shihan Mochizuki explains, there are no perfect techniques.

Oh, lastly, thanks to all for your willingness to discuss Yoseikan. I am also saddened by some of the splits that have occurred over recent years in the art. On the horizon is a possible solution for many of those who did not make the shift over to Yoseikan Budo. Shihan is working on the idea of developing Aikido Mochizuki, Karate Mochizuki, Judo Mochizuki, etc. for those who do not want to work on all aspects of Yoseikan budo. There are many paths after all.

In Budo,

Phil

phil farmer
09-13-2007, 11:20 PM
Oh, and Erick......"whips and chains"? Now those techniques might benefit from the "undulation". :D

Dan Austin
09-14-2007, 04:22 PM
I do not think we can train as full on as MMA guys , not that I am in aikido because all the places were booked on the knitting course either, and MMA have some very good training principles.
Nonetheless Dan and Roman made some valid points, as did William, and I can see where the discrepancy is between what Romam and Dan see as aikido and what William and myself practice.

Perhaps knitting is best in that it's truly peaceful and can never give any illusions as to how it applies in other contexts of real life. ;)

I wouldn't presume to define what Aikido is, it's easier to isolate and discuss portions of "Martial Truth" than try to pin it all down in a concise fashion. Besides, you get criticized as a know-it-all or wannabe savior if you dare express your thoughts on a discussion board made for expressing just those sorts of thoughts. ;) I do think that making progress up any path of the mountain requires gaining actual as opposed to imaginary ability, which translates to ability against increasing levels of intelligent resistance. In the aiki-boxing thread someone posted a link to an interview with Aikikai Shihan Hiroshi Isoyama with the following comment:

"Q. Did you ever talk to your American students about the founder, Morihei Ueshiba?"

"A. Yes. I even took some of them to Iwama to meet him. They couldn’t believe it when they saw me being thrown all over the mat by O-Sensei. They said, “How can someone like you, who can throw all of us so easily, be thrown around like that by an old man?!” I replied, “That’s what I’d like to know!” (laughs) I explained that aikido had nothing to do with one’s age. They asked if they could try holding onto O-Sensei themselves and one of the most lively came up and was downed and pinned the instant he tried. They couldn’t figure out how they’d been controlled like that; they just knew they had."

This is another account of Ueshiba being on another level than his own teacher-students in a way they couldn't really understand. This lends credence to the idea regularly espoused by Rob and Mike Sigman that there is a different way of powering movement, not normally taught, which accounts for such stories. Having read many of those discussions, and then seeing the comment about the Yoseikan movement, it sounds strikingly similar in concept if not in detail. It's worth having that discussion on a separate thread. It seems the Yoseikan founder did not have this skill from Ueshiba, since it's said that his son added this movement to unify the disparate styles. I can't comment on what Rob's teacher Akuzawa does, though I believe the claim is that it is distinctly not a sequential wavelike movement, like throwing a baseball. After all, that would hardly require specialized exercises of the kind Rob talks about. If Rob or Mike Sigman see this thread perhaps they could contribute more, but it's an interesting question where the Yoseikan Budo founder's son learned this movement, and what differences there may be in the Yoseikan world. Playing Devil's Advocate and assuming Rob is correct that only handfuls of people here and there would have knowledge of it, one would expect that only a few in the Yoseikan Budo world would have a solid grasp. However in Yoseikan Budo lore, despite whatever factionalization may exist, there seems to be an explicit awareness that there is supposed to be a specific power method applied to all the techniques, and that said method should be recognizable to Chinese styles as well. In other words it sounds exactly like the things Rob has discussed yet from a completely different source, and the Yoseikan Budo founder's son sounds a lot like Akuzawa from a comparison of their influences and goals. Beyond noticing that there seems to be an obvious parallel, that's all I can say about it, but it would be interesting to know more. For starters, is it known what the Yoseikan source for this movement method is? Where did the founder's son (sorry, can't remember his name) learn it?

David Orange
09-15-2007, 12:14 AM
... the idea regularly espoused by Rob and Mike Sigman that there is a different way of powering movement, not normally taught, which accounts for such stories. Having read many of those discussions, and then seeing the comment about the Yoseikan movement, it sounds strikingly similar in concept if not in detail.

Dan, I don't think it's that similar. Having met Hiroo Sensei (son of Minoru Mochizuki) and trained with him in the wave movement, I'd say that, at most, there are some parallels with what Rob, Dan, et al have been discussing. But I've never seen anyone in yoseikan do the kinds of things Dan describes or that OSensei demonstrated--the immovability when pushed by several people, the jo trick and things of that nature. In yoseikan, I never saw anyone resist force in that way, but always move with the force to take control of it.

Now, the wave movement seems more a way of generating force than anything related to redirecting the push or power of another person. Hiroo Sensei demonstrates the ability, through his wave motion, to issue percussive power with very little movement. And he can apply this same kind of movement in judo and karate techniques. So I'm sure he has a way of integrating it with the aikido techniques as well. But I don't think it's related to absorbing force while standing on a spot.

It seems the Yoseikan founder did not have this skill from Ueshiba, since it's said that his son added this movement to unify the disparate styles.

If by "this skill," you mean the "wave" motion, you are correct. That is not something that Minoru Mochizuki got from OSensei. And I wouldn't say so much that Hiroo Sensei "added" the movement to unify disparate styles, but recognized it as the underlying nature of every style. On the aikibudo/yoseikan thread, there is a lot of discussion about Patrick Auge, who was uchi deshi to Minoru Mochizuki. You can see the wave quality in his bokken suburi. Of course, he trained with Hiroo Sensei before he went to Minoru Sensei, so that could be from Hiroo Sensei's influence....

I can't comment on what Rob's teacher Akuzawa does, though I believe the claim is that it is distinctly not a sequential wavelike movement, like throwing a baseball. After all, that would hardly require specialized exercises of the kind Rob talks about.

Reading the aunkai website closely does not give me the feeling that their practice involves a wave motion. It's a separate matter that you could do even with the aunkai training, in my opinion.

If Rob or Mike Sigman see this thread perhaps they could contribute more, but it's an interesting question where the Yoseikan Budo founder's son learned this movement, and what differences there may be in the Yoseikan world.

I don't think that Hiroo Sensei "learned" his movement from anyone but gradually came to recognize it from his life experiences. When he went to France, he had been training all his life under a man who was not only uchi deshi to Morihei Ueshiba, but also uchi deshi to Kyuzo Mifune, direct student of Toku Sampo and protege of Jigoro Kano and a master of the Japanese sword. Hiroo Sensei was highly skilled in all these arts as well as Wado Ryu karate before he began teaching in France.

Now, the French cultural experience was very influential in the life and techniques of Minoru Mochizuki, too. It was meeting the many types of fighters in Europe that convinced him that aikido needed to train against a much wider variety of attacks. He and OSensei had quite an argument about this after Mochizuki Sensei returned from France. Mochizuki Sensei had encountered Western fencing, savate, western boxing, knife fighters, knife throwers, and western wrestlers. It was watching the suplex techniques of the wrestlers that he began to regret having lost the opportunity to learn the many sutemi waza of the gyokushin ryu, which lead him to devise many sutemi waza of his own in an effort to recreate that ryu, of which he believed himself the last person to hold a scroll. And that resulted in his yoseikan budo.

But while Minoru Sensei was known as the "founder" of yoseikan budo, it was really Hiroo Sensei who created the term "yoseikan budo." Minoru Sensei had been calling his arts "yoseikan aikido," "yoseikan judo," etc. for some time, but through his son's influence, he began to use the term yoseikan budo to refer to his blended system of aikido, judo, karate, jujutsu and sword. But what Hiroo Sensei had in mind was a different type of blended art.

To begin with, it's important to consider that Hiroo Sensei's approach was very much rooted in Wado Ryu karate while his father's approach was based in judo as much as aikido. And I believe that Hiroo's approach was also heavily influenced by the French culture, leading him into boxing techniques and a generalized grappling also influenced by western wrestling. But with the karate and boxing, you can see the potential for him to discover a wave-like motion inherent in such movements as pitching a baseball. So I think that you could say that his approach came from immersion of his Japanese arts in the French culture, including scientific rationalism and European fighting methods.

Playing Devil's Advocate and assuming Rob is correct that only handfuls of people here and there would have knowledge of it, one would expect that only a few in the Yoseikan Budo world would have a solid grasp.

Definitely.

However in Yoseikan Budo lore, despite whatever factionalization may exist, there seems to be an explicit awareness that there is supposed to be a specific power method applied to all the techniques, and that said method should be recognizable to Chinese styles as well.

But it wasn't the same kind of power in Minoru Mochizuki's yoseikan as in Hiroo Mochizuki's. I would say that there is a lot of the traditional power in what Hiroo Sensei does, but the wave thing is a different organizing principle. And further, again, I'd say you could use aunkai-type training and then learn to apply it in that wave fashion, but they are not the same thing as far as I can tell.

In other words it sounds exactly like the things Rob has discussed yet from a completely different source, and the Yoseikan Budo founder's son sounds a lot like Akuzawa from a comparison of their influences and goals.

I think that's more of an appearance than a real relation.

...it would be interesting to know more. For starters, is it known what the Yoseikan source for this movement method is? Where did the founder's son (sorry, can't remember his name) learn it?

I hope my comments have helped a little on that question. Of course, the best thing would be to go and see Hiroo Sensei or his son, Mitchi, and see what you think in person.

Best wishes.

David

wildaikido
09-15-2007, 03:44 AM
Learning Quantum Electro Dynamics at the moment, I just keep reading "wave theory" and all that comes to mind is the wave-particle duality :D

Erick Mead
09-15-2007, 09:17 AM
Learning Quantum Electro Dynamics at the moment, I just keep reading "wave theory" and all that comes to mind is the wave-particle duality :DI keep tellin' ya. An-gu-lar mo-men-tum. Bones, links, chain, quanta -- units of h-bar/2. The principles involved are precisely aligned. Wave --continuity, particle -- discontinuity. In yo ho. Classically, Berkeley defined angular momentum relative to the inertial frame of the fixed stars to reconcile Newtons inadmissible "absolute space" to the reality of relative measure.

Aikido principles simply allow one to redefine, at will, the relative inertial frame initially selected by the attacker, without altering the energy in the system thus defined -- thus the energy either spirals into a hole or out into next to nothingness. Ma-ai is the macro-equivalent of quantized energy, physically constrained by the links of the bodies in operation, simultaneously continuous and discontinuous, and thus either mode of connection can be selected at any time if one begins to perceive the fundamental reality of the interaction. The Aiki Path is infinite. ...In Aikido you must understand every phenomenon in the universe. For example, the rotation of the Earth and the most intricate and far-reaching system of the universe. ... The technique of Aiki is ascetic training and a way through which you reach a state of unification of body and spirit by the realization of the principle of heaven. 天 理. Angular momentum is the physical principle that ties ALL that together. The old man knew EXACTLY what he was talking physically, put in his own terms.

wildaikido
09-15-2007, 11:39 AM
I keep tellin' ya. An-gu-lar mo-men-tum. Bones, links, chain, quanta -- units of h-bar/2. The principles involved are precisely aligned. Wave --continuity, particle -- discontinuity. In yo ho. Classically, Berkeley defined angular momentum relative to the inertial frame of the fixed stars to reconcile Newtons inadmissible "absolute space" to the reality of relative measure.

Aikido principles simply allow one to redefine, at will, the relative inertial frame initially selected by the attacker, without altering the energy in the system thus defined -- thus the energy either spirals into a hole or out into next to nothingness. Ma-ai is the macro-equivalent of quantized energy, physically constrained by the links of the bodies in operation, simultaneously continuous and discontinuous, and thus either mode of connection can be selected at any time if one begins to perceive the fundamental reality of the interaction. 天 理. Angular momentum is the physical principle that ties ALL that together. The old man knew EXACTLY what he was talking physically, put in his own terms.

Wow, I never thought my little quip would elicit a nice response.

I like that quote from "O'Sensei", I will try and send him a PM :D

Regards,

Dan Austin
09-15-2007, 01:15 PM
I think that's more of an appearance than a real relation.


I think so as well. The similarity seems to be the idea of a unified body skill common even to Chinese arts. The Wikipedia Yoseikan entry claims this is what the Chinese would refer to as "qi", so in that sense it seems the same as what Rob and Mike Sigman say, that there should be a unique underlying mechanical skill that is "qi skill". However I also think that the Yoseikan method sounds quite different than what Rob talks about. Thanks for the detailed history.

phil farmer
09-15-2007, 05:46 PM
Shihan Mochizuki discovered that this wave ( undulation) just kept coming up in all that he was doing. Please remember he was O Sensei's student from 1948 to 1963 when he left for France. I think the best way to describe this movement or principle might be to relate it to the size of the motion. In a large sweeping motion, such as swinging a bo or katana, it is an undualtion feeling (large spaces between the peeks of the wave). This would also apply to the wide movements of aiki or perhaps a good o goshi or a kick. The smaller weapon, a tambo perhaps or a tanto or a punch, the wave peaks are closer together, more in keeping with an actual wave. In the application of a joint lock, a close in punch, a punch say from a prone position or a punch with no time to think about it, you can get very close wave peaks and I think of this as a pulse. Hope this helps a bit, it depends on the setting, weapon, and the timing.

To illustrate, Shihan told a story that he was with O Sensei and they were watching a class at the dojo. O Sensei said to look at the students, the circles are very big, for beginners to get the feel for the motion. Shihan said they had a class for advanced students afterward and the circles were decidedly much smaller and much more powerful. It takes time to learn the wave, it is taught and discussed with all students. The best are of course Shihan and his sons but many other instructors do it and do it well. The power that is generated by this motion is literally exponentially greater, remembering mass times velocity squared. The speed added to the punch, kick or throw is very great. The "secret", though there really is no secret, is that you must be very relaxed until the exact moment of impact. For that reason, only well practiced Yoseikan Budo practitioners generate the great power Shihan does. I have held the punching target for him on more than one occaision and I will assure you, at age 71, the concentrated force he can generate is hard to describe. I would liken it to someone taking a two inch steel pipe and jabbing you with its end, like a tsuki. Even through 8 gi tops folded up to make a nice makiwara, you can easily feel the power and it does leave a nice red mark on your body.

Truth is stranger than fiction.

Phil Farmer

alaingallardo
09-18-2007, 04:21 PM
Hiroo Mochizuki sensei says himself that the idea of the undulation first came to him while observing a circus artist, who was doing a whip performance.
A knife was attached at the tip of the whip, and the artist, thanks to his wavy movement, made the blade entered so deeply into the trunk of a tree that it was after very difficult to retire.

H. Mochizuki has been very much impressed by this powerful result, and from then has started to reproduce the artist's body motion at that moment.
Where most people were rather interested in the whip motion itself, Mochizuki has been interested in the body motion at play.

A first book on Yoseikan Budo was later published (I don't remember if it was at the end of the 1970's, or in the beginning of the 80's), with many photos, on this subject, with H. Mochizuki demontrating the undulation principle.
That's for the history.

Erick Mead
09-18-2007, 05:31 PM
Hiroo Mochizuki sensei says himself that the idea of the undulation first came to him while observing a circus artist, who was doing a whip performance.
A knife was attached at the tip of the whip, and the artist, thanks to his wavy movement, made the blade entered so deeply into the trunk of a tree that it was after very difficult to retire.

H. Mochizuki has been very much impressed by this powerful result, and from then has started to reproduce the artist's body motion at that moment.
Where most people were rather interested in the whip motion itself, Mochizuki has been interested in the body motion at play.

A first book on Yoseikan Budo was later published (I don't remember if it was at the end of the 1970's, or in the beginning of the 80's), with many photos, on this subject, with H. Mochizuki demontrating the undulation principle.While as a fundamental principle of nature the subtlety and power in manipulating of angular momentum is freely observable in a variety of contexts to anyone with critical powers of physical observation, the "whip" concept is not a novel observation with Hiroo Mochizuki Sensei in connection with Aikido principles. An uchi-deshi of O Sensei, Terry Dobson in particular, and contemporary to H. Mochizuki, observed much the same thing and used it in his teaching , which has been mentioned in this forum before: I had the privilege of training with Terry Dobson a lot, and he used a bullwhip to demonstrate several things. The most important thing was the demonstration of leading one's partner by their Ki, instead of pushing them around. .... He then demonstrated the effectiveness of circular and spirallic movements in generating very strong forces. He showed how changing directions dynamically caused the tip of the whip to move so fast that it broke the sound barrier, hence the "crack" of the whip. It should not be surprising that different observers of talent, looking at the same fundamental truth, come up with the same basic observations. No one gets credit for seeing it first -- you only get dinged if eventually you don't see it, whether in these terms or some other manner of description.

David Orange
09-18-2007, 09:03 PM
Hiroo Mochizuki sensei says himself that the idea of the undulation first came to him while observing a circus artist, who was doing a whip performance.

A first book on Yoseikan Budo was later published (I don't remember if it was at the end of the 1970's, or in the beginning of the 80's), with many photos, on this subject, with H. Mochizuki demontrating the undulation principle.
That's for the history.

Very interesting, Alain. Thanks for that contribution!

Best to you.

David

David Orange
09-18-2007, 09:06 PM
It should not be surprising that different observers of talent, looking at the same fundamental truth, come up with the same basic observations. No one gets credit for seeing it first -- you only get dinged if eventually you don't see it, whether in these terms or some other manner of description.

Also, it's a matter of how far one takes that simple observation and how completely he can recognize it in seemingly unrelated phenomena. Hiroo Mochizuki has developed it to a high and fine degree.

Best to you, too.

David

statisticool
09-18-2007, 11:00 PM
Ma-ai is the macro-equivalent of quantized energy, physically constrained by the links of the bodies in operation, simultaneously continuous and discontinuous, and thus either mode of connection can be selected at any time if one begins to perceive the fundamental reality of the interaction.


I agree...I think.

Justin

Tim Fong
09-19-2007, 01:34 AM
Phil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq7vODRmVuw&mode=related&search=

Is this a typical solo training set in Yoseikan?

Thanks,
Tim

phil farmer
09-19-2007, 07:58 AM
Quick reply, Tom, is that I can't see youtube from work,it is blocked, but I will try to answer you this evening when I get home. Just didn't want you to think I was not williing to answer.

Mike Sigman
09-19-2007, 09:56 PM
If Rob or Mike Sigman see this thread perhaps they could contribute more, but it's an interesting question where the Yoseikan Budo founder's son learned this movement, and what differences there may be in the Yoseikan world.Dan, there's a certain logic to this stuff that's difficult to go outside of, once you're in it. Trying quickly to think of some analogy that will allow me to toss in a meaningful but short comment, let me try this:

Imagine one of those snap-together flexible support-poles that form the outside through-the-loops structure of many lightweight portable tents nowadays. About 9-feet long, I guess. If you line that pole up against an incoming force correctly, you can keep the incoming force at a distance.... but consider that only a "pole skill" used to strengthen the pole and not something you would really do as a strategy or technique. That example is the equivalent of pretty much all of Tohei's and Ueshiba's "withstand a push" demonstrations that they did. They formed flexible "poles" throughout their body, starting from the ground, at their will.

Now take that same pole and put against, I dunno, a wall. You want to shake a wave pulse down that pole while simultaneously timing a push straight down the pole so that the combined forces of the push and the wave arrive together for maximum power. You can see a couple of problems, I'm sure, but the main problem is that if you concentrate too much on "making a wave" and neglect to keep the tip of the pole against the wall (or aimed at it), you'll blow the objective. A "wave" that is not focused along a connected, flexible, a focused path will simply be a "wave" (as cool as it sounds) and won't be particularly powerful. To do it correctly takes a path from the ground, a trained connection, and a wave-path that is focused along the path from the ground to the target. You can't just think "I'll hit him with a wave and that will knock his socks off"... it takes some knowledge (usually needs to be shown) and some training. And yeah, variations of this skill are found in a great number of Asian martial arts, but in my experience, that's a reasonable general description.

Best.

Mike Sigman

Upyu
09-20-2007, 12:16 AM
Sounds like interesting stuff Dan,

The wave movement I've seen, is when you really break it down, simply an open/close of the major joints of the body(Btw, anyone in the know, don't shoot me, this is a huge huge oversimplification :) ). You can parody the skill in certain ways and this is probably why a lot of people missed the mark in gaining these skills.
Case in point, the shotokan hipsnap, certain systema guys thinking just waving the chest produces KO power etc...

When someone with a body that's conditioned in the manner that's been discussed in previous threads, the "open/close" of the major joints (namely the scaps and pelvic girdle) can create tremendous power. This open/close of certain joints can be likened to waving, but it can also be a "shake", a "tremble", "vibration" etc. That's not even adding in other elements like slamming the diaphram/koshi area down into your foot etc.

Anyways, Ark shows plenty of "wave" like demonstrations of how to use the body. He often says, once you have the right "body", most of this stuff will come naturally. First thing to do is to condition the body so it becomes connected. Then you can start to talk power generation.

Timothy WK
09-20-2007, 06:51 AM
The way I describe it to my students is using the idea of popping someone with a towel. If you don't pull back slightly at the end, you get no pop, pull back slightly as the towel's tip is almost extended and you accelerate the tip of the towel.

This is the same for the punch, this slight pull back while the fist is still going forward gives tremendous acceleration and focuses the energy in a tighter pattern.

I've always had a problem with likening the wave/snap motion to a towel or whip. It just doesn't make sense to me, though I don't have the physics knowledge to outright disprove it.

Basically, the human arm or leg simply isn't as flexible as a towel or whip, so I don't see how a human limb can transfer energy in the same way. Furthermore, the power of a towel/whip comes from the "flicking" motion. But you don't really "flick" punches and kicks, you drive them straight. You can "flick" a backhand, and some kicks, but "normal" punches and kicks are "straight" (at least, the ones I used to practice in karate were).

Also, the way I understand whips (and to a lessor extent towels), the reason the wave accelerates is because the whip tapers from handle to tip. Energy is conserved, thus the motion accelerates as the mass of the whip decreases. The human body isn't built this way. Furthermore, a whip can get moving really, really fast. The "crack" of the whip comes from the tip moving faster than the speed of sound, a mini-sonic boom. The human body certainly can't do that.

I'm sure there are other "wave"-like actions the human body can make, but I don't see how they can be the same as a towel or whip.

aikidoc
09-20-2007, 08:03 AM
Basically, the human arm or leg simply isn't as flexible as a towel or whip, so I don't see how a human limb can transfer energy in the same way. Furthermore, the power of a towel/whip comes from the "flicking" motion.
.

Yes, the human body in most cases is not as flexible as the towel or whip. However, the wave or kinetic chain would seem to me to be generated from the center outward if transfering energy or inward if grounding energy. To make that happen would only require relaxed connection, grounding and the ability to vibrate, pulse, or whatever you want to call it, one's center.

Mike Sigman
09-20-2007, 08:31 AM
Also, the way I understand whips (and to a lessor extent towels), the reason the wave accelerates is because the whip tapers from handle to tip. Energy is conserved, thus the motion accelerates as the mass of the whip decreases. The human body isn't built this way. Furthermore, a whip can get moving really, really fast. The "crack" of the whip comes from the tip moving faster than the speed of sound, a mini-sonic boom. The human body certainly can't do that.
As in many incremental analyses, you can have several perspectives and analyse a particular phenomenon in terms of forces, levers, momentum, momentum transfer, Impulse, and so on.

What you're saying about a whip is that as you shake a wave down the braided body of the whip, the decrease in diameter of the whip means that velocity must increase as the mass of the whip decreases, because M1V1 = m2v2 (the momentum of a particular mass and velocity must be conserved). Then you say that the human body isn't really built this way, which is true..... but in a way, the body is sort of built like this.

The equation M1V1 = m2v2 can be looked at as the basic explanation of why a billiard ball can roll into another billiard ball and the first ball stops while the second ball begins rolling away. If we make the mass (M1) of the first ball to be twice the mass of the second ball, then the second ball (in a perfect, inelastic collision, neglecting friction, etc.) will wind up rolling away at twice the velocity the first ball arrived with. In a lot of ways, you can look at the torso/middle of our body as the larger first ball and the arm/fist as the smaller second ball. The same transfer of momentum can happen if you connect things up correctly.

Better yet, make it 3 balls. The earth is the first ball, the torso/tanden is the second ball, the arm/fist would be the third ball.

FWIW

Mike

Timothy WK
09-20-2007, 09:33 AM
If you re-read my post, I acknowledged that wave-like actions were possible. It's the whip analogy I have difficulty accepting.

Mike, I get idea of "pulsing" from your center into the hand. But I have some honest questions:

When you "pulse" from the center, does the power/energy travel from the body down the arm to the hand? Or is the entire movement a coordinated, simultaneous action? What I mean is, back in my karate days, I would snap my hips, then a split-second later the power/energy would transfer to my arm and my hand would start moving.

After you, err... "pulse outward" with your center, do you actively "retract"? Back in my karate days---and earlier in this thread---it was advised that one should pull the hand or foot backwards after the strike. (There's a certain tactical advantage to this, but it's hard for me to see how it contributes to power generation.)

Mike Sigman
09-20-2007, 09:52 AM
When you "pulse" from the center, does the power/energy travel from the body down the arm to the hand? Or is the entire movement a coordinated, simultaneous action? What I mean is, back in my karate days, I would snap my hips, then a split-second later the power/energy would transfer to my arm and my hand would start moving.
Well, to cut to the chase and to keep it focused, let me just try to reiterate my perhaps poorly-made point: A "wave" or "towel snap" can pop someone, but it's not really all that powerful unless it is supported by something akin to that rod I mentioned in the other post. That "rod" can represent the path from the hands to the ground that someone like Tohei, O-Sensei, and others demonstrates when they show they are "immoveable", etc. An empty wave isn't all that powerful; a wave riding along a supporting path is powerful as an assist. You don't really need a wave in most cases, if you can store power along that path, bear in mind.

If you use a "wave", you're obviously doing what is called "sequential movement". The thing about sequential movement is that it's more or less what a whip does and one factor has to be in common.... if the "connection" between all the segments isn't good, the power is lost. If you snap your hips and then you only trigger off the hip snap, you haven't done much. If your body connection is good, the hip snap actually does the work and the torque across the torso will throw the arm out. That's the difference between actually using the center to strike and triggered sequential movement. After you, err... "pulse outward" with your center, do you actively "retract"? Back in my karate days---and earlier in this thread---it was advised that one should pull the hand or foot backwards after the strike. (There's a certain tactical advantage to this, but it's hard for me to see how it contributes to power generation.)Depends. It's a discussion about Impulse. If I want to hurt someone, I tend to make the contact very short and very sharp. If I just want to bounce someone back for a demo, I maintain contact much longer so that it becomes simply a momentum transfer.

Best.

Mike

wildaikido
09-20-2007, 10:54 AM
After you, err... "pulse outward" with your center, do you actively "retract"? Back in my karate days---and earlier in this thread---it was advised that one should pull the hand or foot backwards after the strike. (There's a certain tactical advantage to this, but it's hard for me to see how it contributes to power generation.)

To build on what Mike said, if you have two balls of equal mass, ball one is stationary, the ball two rolls into ball one with a given "speed", then under ideal conditions, ball two will stop, and ball one will roll away with the speed ball two had. Basically, the speed lost by ball two, equals the speed gained by ball one. So if we add some spin, and we make ball two bounce back after the collision, then the change in speed from positive x to negative y, is larger, hence ball one, will now have a speed equal to x+y.

Hence the snap back increases the change in momentum. The force of the strike is then given by the change in momentum, divided by the time the strike occurs over. Hence a quick snap back, also increases the force.

This is the opposite principle behind an air bag in a car, which increase the time, decreasing the force.

Regards,

clwk
09-20-2007, 11:49 AM
Mike,
The equation M1V1 = m2v2 can be looked at as the basic explanation of why a billiard ball can roll into another billiard ball and the first ball stops while the second ball begins rolling away. If we make the mass (M1) of the first ball to be twice the mass of the second ball, then the second ball (in a perfect, inelastic collision, neglecting friction, etc.) will wind up rolling away at twice the velocity the first ball arrived with.
I *think* you mean 'elastic collision' rather than inelastic. An elastic collision preserves the most kinetic energy by conserving all of it. I was bored a while ago, so I did the math on this. It doesn't really change your point, but it's a detail that's worth considering if one starts really thinking about what can happen:

If the first ball is twice the mass of the second ball, then actually (in an elastic collision) the second ball will only roll away at 1 1/3 the speed the first ball started with. This is because in order for kinetic energy to be conserved, the first ball has to continue rolling at 1/3 of its original speed. Once the first ball's mass exceeds the second ball's, it is not possible for it to transfer all of its momentum. The reason this is possible with pool balls is because they each have the same mass.

The best you can do with an elastic collision is for the second ball to leave with double the speed the first ball arrived at -- but this is the theoretical limit as the ratio of the masses approaches infinity. For example, if the first ball is 100 times heavier than the second, the second ball leaves at 1.98 times the original speed.

In a lot of ways, you can look at the torso/middle of our body as the larger first ball and the arm/fist as the smaller second ball. The same transfer of momentum can happen if you connect things up correctly.
And the above analysis points out that the proportionally bigger the first ball, the closer you can come to getting double the velocity out of the second ball. However, that's the best you can do. So once you've gotten those proportions worked out, the only way (within this formula) to add more kinetic energy to the second ball is to increase the velocity of the first ball. You can only go so far by increasing mass (to the first ball; increasing mass of the whole system will always help, but any increase in mass of the second ball needs to be proportionally matched in the first ball in order not to slip back in terms of velocity transfer). All else being the same, the faster you can get the first ball going, the faster the second ball will go.

Better yet, make it 3 balls. The earth is the first ball, the torso/tanden is the second ball, the arm/fist would be the third ball.
But of course you cannot actually get the earth moving. What you *can* do is take advantage of its mass to accelerate the second ball by knocking it off the first ball. In an elastic collision, this won't actually buy you anything. However, if you are adding power to the ball over time, it gives you a longer path over which to accelerate the middle ball (more work = more energy). Better still, if you can make the collision with the ground be 'super-elastic' then the impact itself will effectively add energy. The only way to accomplish that is for some form of stored energy to be brought into play. If you imagine colliding with the sprung part of a mousetrap, you can see that you might be able to leave the collision with more energy than you entered with. Of course this only works if someone else put the energy there by setting the mousetrap in the first place.

I know *you* know this Mike, more clearly I am sure than I do. I just threw it out there for the number geeks to chew on. If my math's wrong, please point it out -- but I think I got the equations right.

-ck

Mike Sigman
09-20-2007, 11:58 AM
I *think* you mean 'elastic collision' rather than inelastic. Hi CK:

No, I was using a lossless example in order to simplify the illustration. An elastic collision adds more factors and is not good for simple examples. An elastic collision preserves the most kinetic energy by conserving all of it. I was bored a while ago, so I did the math on this. It doesn't really change your point, but it's a detail that's worth considering if one starts really thinking about what can happen:

If the first ball is twice the mass of the second ball, then actually (in an elastic collision) the second ball will only roll away at 1 1/3 the speed the first ball started with. This is because in order for kinetic energy to be conserved, the first ball has to continue rolling at 1/3 of its original speed. Once the first ball's mass exceeds the second ball's, it is not possible for it to transfer all of its momentum. The reason this is possible with pool balls is because they each have the same mass.

The best you can do with an elastic collision is for the second ball to leave with double the speed the first ball arrived at -- but this is the theoretical limit as the ratio of the masses approaches infinity. For example, if the first ball is 100 times heavier than the second, the second ball leaves at 1.98 times the original speed.

And the above analysis points out that the proportionally bigger the first ball, the closer you can come to getting double the velocity out of the second ball. However, that's the best you can do. So once you've gotten those proportions worked out, the only way (within this formula) to add more kinetic energy to the second ball is to increase the velocity of the first ball. You can only go so far by increasing mass (to the first ball; increasing mass of the whole system will always help, but any increase in mass of the second ball needs to be proportionally matched in the first ball in order not to slip back in terms of velocity transfer). All else being the same, the faster you can get the first ball going, the faster the second ball will go.

But of course you cannot actually get the earth moving. What you *can* do is take advantage of its mass to accelerate the second ball by knocking it off the first ball. In an elastic collision, this won't actually buy you anything. However, if you are adding power to the ball over time, it gives you a longer path over which to accelerate the middle ball (more work = more energy). Better still, if you can make the collision with the ground be 'super-elastic' then the impact itself will effectively add energy. The only way to accomplish that is for some form of stored energy to be brought into play. If you imagine colliding with the sprung part of a mousetrap, you can see that you might be able to leave the collision with more energy than you entered with. Of course this only works if someone else put the energy there by setting the mousetrap in the first place.

I know *you* know this Mike, more clearly I am sure than I do. I just threw it out there for the number geeks to chew on. If my math's wrong, please point it out -- but I think I got the equations right.I was only trying to say what time it was; not how to build a watch, CK. ;)

Best.

Mike

alaingallardo
09-20-2007, 01:00 PM
I'm going first to go back to the wave, or the whip, analogy for explaining the power generation in Hiroo Mochizuki's pedagogy.

The wave has an inverse relationship between amplitude and frequency.
A large wave has a large amplitude and a low frequency. It is visible.
A short wave is the opposite. It is almost not visible.

Visible, here, means that you have the time to understand what you are seeing because of the slow speed and the large amplitude motion.
Invisible means that you don't have the time to understand the images because of the high speed and very low amplitude motion.

So, H.Mochizuki starts with the large wave so as to facilitate the demo of what body parts exactly are moving, and how momentum is transmitted through the whole body.

There is a specific sequential body coordination in order to produce ascending or descending waves in the sagittal and frontal planes.
Both direction waves can also be combined into one cyclic "wheel motion" (circling up/down or down/up) in any plane.

The large wave can be applied in combat, particularly for the throws.
The short waves are more used for atemi, and for weapons manipulation.

The short wave isn't no more really a "wave", as it can't be visually seen like that (you can't see a clear waving, with up and down curves travelling, in alternance, through the body).
H. Mochizuki calls then it a "vibration".
But this explosive motion is supposed to be the same pattern as the "undulation".

Frequency is very high and amplitude is very low, thus the eyes only see a kind of shaking, or a vibration of the whole body.
It all seems to appear in simultaneity, rather like a sequencial motion because of the high speed.

For the purpose of pedagogy, the large undulation can be exercized very slowly, so as to let the time to the body awareness to be impressed (awareness is rather limited).
It means that under these special exercices conditions, you can really follow what is moving and how.

But of course, for combat application, be it as a sequencial motion (imagine an explosive Judo throw for example), or as a quasi-(or true) simultaneous motion, the wave becomes very quick, hence a vibration.

I personally think that the wave analogy in Yoseikan Budo has to be carefully explained in order to clarify what "sequencial" and what "simultaneous" words actually mean.

When considering the fact that a body wave has some amplitude (meaning that it contains "dynamic ups and downs" travelling through the body), it is then very important to understand that the "down body parts" are NOT totally relaxed, like being completely passively waiting for the momentum.
[Please, excuse my poor language!]

Yes, there is some degree of "passivity" in order to let the primary impulse coordinate the whole body parts.
But the whole body is still actively maintaining an aligned structure (tonic function), that is going to be further dynamized by the impulse.
Only then, the impulse can be precisely channeled (axially) to the intended contact point.

If you represent the whole body as a dynamic alignement of several blocks (tensional blocks, not compressive blocks), you can visualize what exactly is this body wave.
And you can understand why the use of the whip or the wave analogy.

You can see the body as composed by 3 general articulated blocks:
- legs
- trunk/head
- arms

The "central block" is that one of the trunk/head, and it is there that originates the primary impulse.
The trunk itself can sub-divided into 5 components:
- the pelvis
- the abdomino-lumbar
- the thorax
- the head
- and the full spine

Thanks to this simplified, yet precisely articulated, body model, you can initiate a very precise body wave.
And also, you can see that by initiating only one trunk impulse, it is going to immediately affect the whole trunk/head dynamic alignement.

It can't be truly a "sequential motion", because if you move one "block" (by closing/opening), it is the whole spine (and other blocks) that undulates altogether.

The critical element is then the coordination (and timing) of this impulse through the various "body blocks".
Essentially, it means that there is NOT fixed center of motion, and that periphery is as much important for re-cycling the momentum (fourth/back).

Once there is a primary impulse, you have to make it continuously "alive" (if you want), by re-cycling it like in a closed circuit.
This re-cycling of momentum is particularly critical thanks to the spine.

For example, there is no relaxed chest wave possible without a corresponding head wave, a corresponding abdomino-lumbar wave, and a corresponding pelvic wave.
However, it is possible to make a big chest wave but simultaneously "freeze" the head wave at the top...
Momentum is then stopped at the top.

Stopping the momentum is NOT a problem if you can maintain the aligned structure.
Potential motion is still available at will.
You then simply release the "body blocks", as if motion was just beeing kept in "suspension" at the top (or in "compression" at the bottom if this is the case), waiting for this release.
The important element is the wave itself motion between these two polarities.

Solar plexus is the center of the closing/opening of the trunk (between abdomino-lumbar/thorax which corresponds to vertebra T8):
- this dynamic center allows the belly to be "full" and the chest to be "empty".

But this solar plexus center has to be synchronized with each extremities of the bow, the pelvis and the head.
Only then, the spine can function like a bow (compression/extension).
Even turning is possible without a thoracic vertebra rotation, but only just cervical rotation.
It is just a closing/opening of the trunk around the solar plexus/T8 into a diagonal.
But it requires some trunk mobility and relaxation.
It also requires a different pattern coordination than the usual.

Finally, I agree with many who have said that the wave model is not new, nor unique to Hiroo Mochizuki. Others have discovered it as well.
At the same time, each one method is specific, and so Yoseikan Budo has its unique savour.
I, for example, palso articularly appreciate the Kenji Tokitsu's method (Tokitsu Ryu), and the Kajo Tsuboi 's method (Kiryuho), among others.
:cool:

Erick Mead
09-20-2007, 01:00 PM
Dan, there's a certain logic to this stuff that's difficult to go outside of, once you're in it. ... Imagine one of those snap-together flexible support-poles that form the outside through-the-loops structure of many lightweight portable tents nowadays. ... That example is the equivalent of pretty much all of Tohei's and Ueshiba's "withstand a push" demonstrations that they did. They formed flexible "poles" throughout their body, starting from the ground, at their will. ... There are other ways of thinking about it, too, however. Waves are quintessential examples of conservation of angular momentum as somewhat divorced from the structures or medium in which they operate -- i.e. the energy travels globally, while the medium moves only locally, minimally and cyclically. This is an aspect of wave/particle nonduality at the macroscale.

While very simple in operation, it can be very spooky because the the actual cause of movement is relatively difficult to percieve, and the ultimate effect of the movement is highly unforeseen. Tsunamis are devastatingly huge, but they lift the surface of the ocean only a few inches and then drop it down again, hardly above background noise -- but coordinated with a totality of interaciton that is difficult to envision -- the total circulation system of the tsunami is from surface to the bottom and many, many miles long. The vortex energy in the water wave is cyclic and rotating, but the individual components of the medium simply go up slightly and then down again as the massive energy passes leaving them each barely disturbed.

Poles in the analogy operate as sprung structures, i.e. -- depending on material torsional or tensile strength as with mechanical springs (taking as a given that no one is pushing hard enough to crush bones in compression).

Sprung structures will vibrate in compression waves easily enough, but not in ways that concentrate kinetic energy in geometric terms as with a loosely bound snapping whip or flailing chain. Likewise, sprung structures do not as easily dissipate kinetic energy as with the attempt to push on a chain. The physical concept of vorticity and the Chinese "open/close" of joints are not that dissimilar in their understanding of the manipulation of this form of energy -- positively or negatively.

For Rob: the vibration shaking or trembling is just higher frequencies of waves particularly at the end of the limbs or the weapon where the positively applied rotational energy is constantly reducing in radius -- thus decreasing in wavelength and increasing frequency and geometrically increasing in total impulse when finally meeting the target. There are two squared energy terms in the relevant equations. In examples of fajin, which is very much given as example s on these topics, the whip model is precisely accurate, and for Tim -- some of the videos of that actually do show the result in the gentleman's cuffs snapping just like the end of the whip.

The whip or flail is the image of the positive concentration model -- the negative model is really best seen in aerodynamic lift, or in destabilized arches. Both are directly applicable also here. If you consider the joints or limb elements as individual whorls of briefly rotating energy, and adaptive in their "viscosity" or relative pliability under impulse, the way it works on the negative phase becomes more clear. Ellis Amdur's very persuasive argument that O Snesei's purpose in "editing" waza from DTR was in selecting those whose ukemi required opening and softening of joints fits this set of observations very closely. Lewis Richardson's doggerel poem is the among the best summaries of the dissipative principle:

Big whorls have little whorls
Which feed on their velocity,
And little whorls have lesser whorls
And so on to viscosity.

Grounding in one manner stores energy in the sprung structure, as Mike suggests. Grounding in another way, merely reflects the wave off the ground like a wave reflects off the beach -- One can generate waves as well as receive them, and thus the thing that can be controlled is the phase of generated wave, or that that the ground reflects, relative to the phase that is being received. I am not saying that grounded energy is not useful or applicable -- but it is not the whole story either - the Ki of Heaven is as just as useful as the Ki of Earth.

Like waves reflecting off the beach, if they meet the oncoming swells with peaks coinciding, the energy doubles and the oncoming wave's energy becomes unstable and breaks and falls down chaotically, or if the reflected trough coincides with the oncoming peak the energy literally vanishes at that point. No grounding required, and at no time do the energies collide or create resistance in the medium they are traversing, (they literally pass through one another), while at the same time causing interesting effects in the medium (bodily structure, in our case) at the point where they are meeting.

The largest energies may require this reflected grounding to avoid injury to weaker structures, but smaller energies may be reflected from any other suitable joint by meeting it with a negative or positive counter-phase, which in one phase is physically equivalent to meeting a barrier like the ground, or in the other phase, like falling into a hole. The body can be manipulate to control the phase delay to dissipate progressively, to transmit without much dissipation, or to alter the phase and magnitude in or joining with and transmitting it

The way in which the joints are addressed to the wave phase they are receiving/generating is another aspect of the "quantizing" of the angular momentum energy in a continuous/discontinuous form that I perceive to operate also in proper control of ma-ai, which I mentioned before.

The only significant difference is that ma-ai involves considering the connected person and oneself as one medium, and the fact that two minds may be involved in the interaction. In a sense, by attacking you give up your receptive mind (ukemi) in proportion to your commitment to the strike and thus only one mind may actually be operating in full possession of its senses at the moment of contact -- as O Sensei's numerous comments about attacking suggest.

Conversely, applied energy can also be eaten up in rotational inertia at each link in the chain if the body's joints are disposed correctly to receive the energy in dissipation. It can even be redirected back into the source along the yin line of the incoming wave going back the other way at the exact point of contact, although this is the most difficult and most highly trained manner of doing this.

A "wave" that is not focused along a connected, flexible, a focused path will simply be a "wave" (as cool as it sounds) and won't be particularly powerful. No arguments -- action must occur with awareness and sensitivity.

To do it correctly takes a path from the ground, a trained connection, and a wave-path that is focused along the path from the ground to the target. All except that grounding (in my sense of the term) is one way, not the only way. Several ways of applying angular momentum in the chain or whip model (tekubi furi undo as the chief example) actually "unground" the body and literally lift its weight with the applied acceleration UPWARD vice downward to ground -- making it more easily and speedily moved at a moment of critical contact WHILE applying energy into the target -- and not merely as a secondary reaction to that energy. The same can be applied in connection to the other person's body, either floating or grounding them depending -- if they are not able to make the necessary adjustments in turn .

The most critical application for utilizing the upward Ki pulse that enables swifter movement -- is with the sword. Both suri-age, and kiri-age, (upward and downward vertical sweeping cuts) can be performed so as to either lift or ground the body at several critical junctures in the movement, depending on the situation. The "vibrational" finish seen in ken suburi in Saito's curriculum makes this action somewhat visible.

It basically depends on whether you catch the applied angular momentum travelling down the body on the down cycle or the up cycle when you gird the undercarriage -- one lifts -- the other grounds. All of this has to be intuitive in action, although the reasons for doing one or the other depending on what is happening are perfectly capable of being analyzed to improve training.

Mike Sigman
09-20-2007, 01:24 PM
I'm going first to go back to the wave, or the whip, analogy for explaining the power generation in Hiroo Mochizuki's pedagogy.

The wave has an inverse relationship between amplitude and frequency.
A large wave has a large amplitude and a low frequency. It is visible.
A short wave is the opposite. It is almost not visible.

Visible, here, means that you have the time to understand what you are seeing because of the slow speed and the large amplitude motion.
Invisible means that you don't have the time to understand the images because of the high speed and very low amplitude motion.

So, H.Mochizuki starts with the large wave so as to facilitate the demo of what body parts exactly are moving, and how momentum is transmitted through the whole body.

There is a specific sequential body coordination in order to produce ascending or descending waves in the sagittal and frontal planes.
Both direction waves can also be combined into one cyclic "wheel motion" (circling up/down or down/up) in any plane.

The large wave can be applied in combat, particularly for the throws.
The short waves are more used for atemi, and for weapons manipulation.

The short wave isn't no more really a "wave", as it can't be visually seen like that (you can't see a clear waving, with up and down curves travelling, in alternance, through the body).
H. Mochizuki calls then it a "vibration".
But this explosive motion is supposed to be the same pattern as the "undulation".

Frequency is very high and amplitude is very low, thus the eyes only see a kind of shaking, or a vibration of the whole body.
It all seems to appear in simultaneity, rather like a sequencial motion because of the high speed.

For the purpose of pedagogy, the large undulation can be exercized very slowly, so as to let the time to the body awareness to be impressed (awareness is rather limited).
It means that under these special exercices conditions, you can really follow what is moving and how.

But of course, for combat application, be it as a sequencial motion (imagine an explosive Judo throw for example), or as a quasi-(or true) simultaneous motion, the wave becomes very quick, hence a vibration.

I personally think that the wave analogy in Yoseikan Budo has to be carefully explained in order to clarify what "sequencial" and what "simultaneous" words actually mean.

When considering the fact that a body wave has some amplitude (meaning that it contains "dynamic ups and downs" travelling through the body), it is then very important to understand that the "down body parts" are NOT totally relaxed, like being completely passively waiting for the momentum.
[Please, excuse my poor language!]

Yes, there is some degree of "passivity" in order to let the primary impulse coordinate the whole body parts.
But the whole body is still actively maintaining an aligned structure (tonic function), that is going to be further dynamized by the impulse.
Only then, the impulse can be precisely channeled (axially) to the intended contact point.

If you represent the whole body as a dynamic alignement of several blocks (tensional blocks, not compressive blocks), you can visualize what exactly is this body wave.
And you can understand why the use of the whip or the wave analogy.

You can see the body as composed by 3 general articulated blocks:
- legs
- trunk/head
- arms

The "central block" is that one of the trunk/head, and it is there that originates the primary impulse.
The trunk itself can sub-divided into 5 components:
- the pelvis
- the abdomino-lumbar
- the thorax
- the head
- and the full spine

Thanks to this simplified, yet precisely articulated, body model, you can initiate a very precise body wave.
And also, you can see that by initiating only one trunk impulse, it is going to immediately affect the whole trunk/head dynamic alignement.

It can't be truly a "sequential motion", because if you move one "block" (by closing/opening), it is the whole spine (and other blocks) that undulates altogether.

The critical element is then the coordination (and timing) of this impulse through the various "body blocks".
Essentially, it means that there is NOT fixed center of motion, and that periphery is as much important for re-cycling the momentum (fourth/back).

Once there is a primary impulse, you have to make it continuously "alive" (if you want), by re-cycling it like in a closed circuit.
This re-cycling of momentum is particularly critical thanks to the spine.

For example, there is no relaxed chest wave possible without a corresponding head wave, a corresponding abdomino-lumbar wave, and a corresponding pelvic wave.
However, it is possible to make a big chest wave but simultaneously "freeze" the head wave at the top...
Momentum is then stopped at the top.

Stopping the momentum is NOT a problem if you can maintain the aligned structure.
Potential motion is still available at will.
You then simply release the "body blocks", as if motion was just beeing kept in "suspension" at the top (or in "compression" at the bottom if this is the case), waiting for this release.
The important element is the wave itself motion between these two polarities.

Solar plexus is the center of the closing/opening of the trunk (between abdomino-lumbar/thorax which corresponds to vertebra T8):
- this dynamic center allows the belly to be "full" and the chest to be "empty".

But this solar plexus center has to be synchronized with each extremities of the bow, the pelvis and the head.
Only then, the spine can function like a bow (compression/extension).
Even turning is possible without a thoracic vertebra rotation, but only just cervical rotation.
It is just a closing/opening of the trunk around the solar plexus/T8 into a diagonal.
But it requires some trunk mobility and relaxation.
It also requires a different pattern coordination than the usual.

Finally, I agree with many who have said that the wave model is not new, nor unique to Hiroo Mochizuki. Others have discovered it as well.
At the same time, each one method is specific, and so Yoseikan Budo has its unique savour.
I, for example, palso articularly appreciate the Kenji Tokitsu's method (Tokitsu Ryu), and the Kajo Tsuboi 's method (Kiryuho), among others.
:cool:Hi Allain:

I don't disagree generally with anything you said, however, I'd suggest that the basis to build everything on is to learn how to do Tohei's "Ki Tests". Without those abilities to build on, the "wave" stuff is an external parody, even though the words sound the same. My 2 cents. ;)

Best.

Mike Sigman

Erick Mead
09-20-2007, 02:48 PM
An elastic collision preserves the most kinetic energy by conserving all of it.

The best you can do with an elastic collision is for the second ball to leave with double the speed the first ball arrived at -- but this is the theoretical limit as the ratio of the masses approaches infinity.
...
I know *you* know this Mike, more clearly I am sure than I do. I just threw it out there for the number geeks to chew on. If my math's wrong, please point it out -- but I think I got the equations right. I don't quibble with the math -- I just quibble with the model of the problem. First of all it is even worse than you assume. Because the balls must hit in a spinning collision and here is always some offset in the eccentricity of the collision this results in an amount of the impact energy proportional to the eccentricity of impact being dissipated to increase spin in the target ball -- vice increase linear velocity -- which application of billiard English suitably leads into my main point.

Linear momentum -- p= mv is a proportional system -- mass times velocity, and the kinetic energy increases as half the mass times the square of the velocity 1/2mv^2. -- So only one square term operates in the linear momentum energy equation.

Angular momentum is a very different animal when it comes to concentrating and dissipating kinetic energy, because the inertial radius controls angular velocity, creating an additional effective square term.

Angular momentum (L) -- L = Iω where I is the inertial moment and ω is the angular velocity. Angular velocity is proportional to the inverse of the radius (the skater spins faster when tighter). But the inertial moment of the body also reduces proportional to of the radius, leaving the total angular momentu proportiaonl to the inverse square of the radius.

Thus, by simply reducing the radius of the rotation we add an additional square term to our angular velocity in the kinetic energy equation -- which is the term that is further squared to yield the effective kinetic energy (or by increasing radius to dissipate energy in terms of the inverse square of the radius). This energetic transformation does not operate in in the linear, non-rotational momentum scenario. In in fact as illustrated above induced rotations are a serious source of inefficiency of linear momentum transfer actual collisions. This degree of disproportion in ability to manipulate the energy positively or negatively though rotational transformation cannot be duplicated in linear momentum terms with normal human anatomy.

On the other hand, this rotational energy equation operates at every stage of reducing or increasing effective radius of rotation. You cannot move your body around without every component rotating about its own center as well as about the point of attachment to some other component. Either initially or ultimately it involves rotating the entire length of the body about its center of mass AND its point contact with the earth. (Bishop Berkeley said a pendulum also rotates with reference to the "fixed stars" so the "Ki of Heaven" is actually a bit of a cross- cultural image.)

Commencing a rotation, let's say, of 2 meters radius (exagerrating for simplicity's sake) of my full height and at its center of mass reduced by about 40 percent (Divine proportion) when I lock out the bottom part and then rotate the upper toso about its C.o.M., then again by roughly 40% at every successive limb component, results in a theoretical multiple of about 6.25 times the angular velocity transferred from the immediately prior stage -- at every stage of the progression.

From my whole body to my upper body/shoulder, to my upper arm, to my forearm, to my fist rotating about my wrist -- that is four conversion stages over the initial motion -- so the potential angular velocity delivered is about 6.25 * 6.25 * 6.25 * 6.25 or 6.25^4 = ~ 1500 times the angular velocity -- limited only by inherent inertia, efficiency losses due to asymmetry and the degree of stiffness in the connections. All of these are very large potential inefficiencies, and thus there is a wide field for training to improve on.

The first and second inefficiencies would be addressed by following a spiral symmetry in the whole movement, aligning every part of every limb to the same scheme of rotation -- which is the pattern of Aikido movement. The second inefficiency would be addressed by "softening" the linkages, as Amdur suggests was O Sensei's purpose in adapting the selection of waza for his training regime. That reduces stiffness in rotation for impulse delivery, and also allows increased sensitivity to and coordination of "viscous" coherence of simultaneous joint rotations across the whole body to impulse meant to to be dissipated.

Mike Sigman
09-20-2007, 03:40 PM
I don't quibble with the math -- I just quibble .....True. You guys have now taken a fairly simple concept and covered it with sequins and flashing lights so that it is not recognizable. Another thread bites the dust, as far as I'm concerned. :rolleyes:

Adios.

Mike

clwk
09-20-2007, 04:02 PM
True. You guys have now taken a fairly simple concept and covered it with sequins and flashing lights so that it is not recognizable. Another thread bites the dust, as far as I'm concerned. :rolleyes:
Um, sorry about that. Just to be clear, I threw in some quantitative detail to clarify the relatively simple model. I wasn't hoping to make the model much more complex. Some people are naturally going to try to think the details of this through, and and even in a balls-bouncing-off-each-other-linearly model, it's not entirely intuitive what can happen physically. I dropped the analysis in because I had performed it -- for those who actually want to think the *simple* model through completely. It wasn't meant to be an entrée into rotational dynamics (no offense, Eric).

-ck

Erick Mead
09-20-2007, 05:01 PM
Um, sorry about that. Just to be clear, I threw in some quantitative detail to clarify the relatively simple model. ... It wasn't meant to be an entrée into rotational dynamics (no offense, Eric). None taken.

Erick Mead
09-20-2007, 05:24 PM
True. You guys have now taken a fairly simple concept and covered it with sequins and flashing lights so that it is not recognizable. Another thread bites the dust, as far as I'm concerned. :rolleyes: For the record -- you unsheathed "inelastic collision" and energy conservation equations first :D ...

Mark Freeman
09-20-2007, 06:16 PM
I'd suggest that the basis to build everything on is to learn how to do Tohei's "Ki Tests". Without those abilities to build on, the "wave" stuff is an external parody, even though the words sound the same. My 2 cents. ;)

I completely agree Mike.:)

regards,,

Mark

raul rodrigo
09-20-2007, 09:37 PM
I completely agree Mike.:)

regards,,

Mark

So do I. Mathematical modeling has its uses, but what matters most is the ability to actually perform the qi/jin tests. I'm sure many shihans' skills in physics and math are abysmal, but what of it?

R

Dan Austin
09-20-2007, 11:47 PM
I don't quibble with the math -- I just quibble with the model of the problem.

You gotta be kidding me. This sort of rant belongs on alt.physics.boredomcoma.lookatme.lookatme. Can we get back to martial arts please?

phil farmer
09-21-2007, 09:01 AM
Holy Cow! You guys are amazing. No, I really mean it. I just know how to do the motion but I am amazed at the explanations you are all going through. Keep it up but I have to tell you I have a Ph.D. in social work so I just know how I feel about the discussion, but I am not sure I understand it all. You passed my physics understanding a couple of "undulations" ago. But pleae, keep chatting, it is very interesting.

Erick Mead
09-21-2007, 09:44 AM
You gotta be kidding me. This sort of rant belongs on alt.physics.boredomcoma.lookatme.lookatme. Can we get back to martial arts please?An honest question. But what do you imagine martial art is? If you cannot reliably disassemble the rifle and reassemble the rifle, understand the components of its operation that are likely to foul, bend, break and need cleaning or replacement (burnishing our arms and our training is the constant work of the warrior) -- you have no business bearing that rifle in a combat situation. In which case -- more training and more understanding is necessary.

One may choose to study one aspect of warfare more intensively than another. But dismissing any area of relevant knowledge is simply unwise. Any misunderstood detail or principle of action can literally mean life or death. Martial art therefore admits of no aspect of the understanding of its action that is not worthy of intensive study. Anything less is just performance art.

Someone starts a thread on "Wave motion theory" and angular momentum intrinsically applies to that discussion and I bring that discussion to the table. I do not have to justify my approach. I did not invent the idea of this path -- the Founder himself did. Argue with him, not me. And good luck with that.
If he comes with ki, strike with ki; if he comes with water, strike with water; if he comes with fire, strike with fire. Think about such things and their relationship to modern scientific warfare when you train. The Aiki Path is infinite. ...In Aikido you must understand every phenomenon in the universe. For example, the rotation of the Earth and the most intricate and far-reaching system of the universe. ... The technique of Aiki is ascetic training and a way through which you reach a state of unification of body and spirit by the realization of the principle of heaven. While there may be others, there is at least one physical concept that is in operation everywhere from the farthest limits of observation at the farthest reaches of the universe to the infinitesimal limits of the Planck scale -- it is angular momentum. It is conserved in exceedingly mysterious and counterintuitive ways, even in the understanding of modern science, and even such as Newton got it wrong in a fairly fundamental way, even in classical terms. You may not chose to study things in this way, and more power to you, but, as I said, I was not the first to go technical in this discussion.

David Orange
09-21-2007, 01:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq7vODRmVuw&mode=related&search=

Is this a typical solo training set in Yoseikan?

Tim, that looks like a karate-type form that Hiroo Sensei must have created. It seems to have elements similar to sanchin and tensho, but, obviously, is neither of those. This was not included in Minoru Sensei's yoseikan. His katas (except happo ken) all resembled traditional judo and jujutsu forms. Since Hiroo is a master of wado ryu (and, I think, some other karate styles), his approach seems much more strongly influenced by karate and this form looks to me like something he developed, himself.

As to whether it's typical solo training for yoseikan budo, I'd have to say, from my encounters with Hiroo Sensei's system, it looks pretty typical.

Hope that helps.

Best to you.

David

Dan Austin
09-21-2007, 09:20 PM
You may not chose to study things in this way, and more power to you, but, as I said, I was not the first to go technical in this discussion.

It looks like you will spread this pollution in any thread if you can crowbar angular momentum into the discussion. Why not join in and discuss how to do something? If this fetish of yours hasn't given any results, you're wasting everyone's time with these eyesores. I can certainly skip them, but just FYI it comes across as a really sad cry for attention.

Erick Mead
09-21-2007, 10:42 PM
It looks like you will spread this pollution in any thread if you can crowbar angular momentum into the discussion. Why not join in and discuss how to do something? If this fetish of yours hasn't given any results, you're wasting everyone's time with these eyesores. I can certainly skip them, but just FYI it comes across as a really sad cry for attention.How to do something? There is simply doing or not doing. Rob, Mike, Dan and I agree on one thing, at least -- DOING anything does not happen here. The HOW of what is done can be discussed in terms of the principles underlying what is done. Understanding the principles does happen here if approached openly.

The only way to understand anything is find it yourself. Since I do not write for your benefit, how I come across is of no consequence to me, but apparently concerns you more than it should.

"How" is about extending what we are doing to other things than what we have done. That is what I am doing. Some may find this way suitable, others not; if not, what I write and think about is not intended for you. I leave you whatever path seems best to you, with my blessings. A mental landscape that can interest itself in a theory involving waves, directly invites my observations. One can only pretend to imagine angular momentum as a fetish and pollution to that discussion, unless from a position of ignorance. Experience alone is limited by that experience. Experience informed by principle leads to novel experience. Takemusu.

Dan Austin
09-21-2007, 11:11 PM
How to do something? There is simply doing or not doing. Rob, Mike, Dan and I agree on one thing, at least -- DOING anything does not happen here. The HOW of what is done can be discussed in terms of the principles underlying what is done. Understanding the principles does happen here if approached openly.

The only way to understand anything is find it yourself. Since I do not write for your benefit, how I come across is of no consequence to me, but apparently concerns you more than it should.

"How" is about extending what we are doing to other things than what we have done. That is what I am doing. Some may find this way suitable, others not; if not, what I write and think about is not intended for you. I leave you whatever path seems best to you, with my blessings. A mental landscape that can interest itself in a theory involving waves, directly invites my observations. One can only pretend to imagine angular momentum as a fetish and pollution to that discussion, unless from a position of ignorance. Experience alone is limited by that experience. Experience informed by principle leads to novel experience. Takemusu.

Blah blah blah blah. Blah blah. Blah blah blah. And now it's "Rob, Mike, Dan and I". Uh, no. Rob posts videos, Mike tries to explain what he does, Dan Harden has people meet up with him. I'm betting they all have skills, and that you for all your babble having nothing that's different than Aikido in Anytown. So what good does a chemical analysis of Ueshiba's urine sample do anybody else? Should we talk about mitochondria and aerobic vs anaerobic metabolism in Aikido practice? Diet maybe? This thread is about Yoseikan Budo and a point of interest is the origin and/or any commonality between it and what Rob and Mike talk about. At this point there was some idle curiosity as to whether you realize you have a pathological need to fluff your feathers inappropriately in public, but I'm past that. *PLONK*

Tim Fong
09-22-2007, 02:55 AM
Tim, that looks like a karate-type form that Hiroo Sensei must have created. It seems to have elements similar to sanchin and tensho, but, obviously, is neither of those. This was not included in Minoru Sensei's yoseikan. His katas (except happo ken) all resembled traditional judo and jujutsu forms. Since Hiroo is a master of wado ryu (and, I think, some other karate styles), his approach seems much more strongly influenced by karate and this form looks to me like something he developed, himself.

As to whether it's typical solo training for yoseikan budo, I'd have to say, from my encounters with Hiroo Sensei's system, it looks pretty typical.

Hope that helps.

Best to you.

David

David,

Thanks. The video was interesting to me specifically because it resembled some Okinawan karate I have seen. I would guess (and could be wrong later-- I'm okay with that) that he's using the attributes/strength from that conditioning to power his other movements. Sort of like what some people are trying to do now with the sanchin they are learning from Ushiro Kenji.

I really like what I've seen of Yoseikan Budo, from the perspective of integrating weapons, grappling and striking.

dps
09-22-2007, 06:41 AM
This thread has been viewed 1,474 times, posted to 53 times. The views expressed about the topic of the thread by Eric or anyone else is not just to satisfy one person. If you don't like what someone else is saying, then don't respond to them or else ignore them. All posts are useful except personal attacks.

David

David Orange
09-22-2007, 09:49 AM
The video was interesting to me specifically because it resembled some Okinawan karate I have seen. I would guess (and could be wrong later-- I'm okay with that) that he's using the attributes/strength from that conditioning to power his other movements. Sort of like what some people are trying to do now with the sanchin they are learning from Ushiro Kenji.

And when you consider that the man in that video (Hiroo Mochizuki) is over seventy years old, it adds a little dimension.

It does look a lot like Okinawan karate, some of the more subtle kind. But, of course, Hiroo Mochizuki will find commonalities among the arts and then express those in his own way. He's really something. I don't know him that well. I knew his father and can see some commonality, but they are also very different in many ways.

I really like what I've seen of Yoseikan Budo, from the perspective of integrating weapons, grappling and striking.

It also seems that Hiroo Mochizuki was much of the driving force behind his father's move in that direction. Of course, Minoru Mochizuki had been working a long time with the truth that aikido comes from the sword and he had cross-trained in all the major Japanese arts as well as most of the minor ones, but as I understand it, it was really Hiroo who began using the term yoseikan budo as he blended all the arts increasingly into a single expression. largely unified around aikido and karate. His father began using the term but he organized the arts technically more around judo than karate and the resulting art is different. Minoru Mochizuki once told me that he had tried to recreate the gyokushin ryu, of which he was then the only living rank-holder and that was a low rank (around nidan, maybe). So now there is no one, to my knowledge, with rank in gyokushin ryu but we might ought to think of his "old" yoseikan budo as "gyokushin" and Hiroo's art as the real and original "yoseikan budo."

There are many elements in that yoseikan budo that irritate budo traditionalists, including many of the practitioners of Minoru Sensei's total style but one thing that impresses me more as time goes by is the "all-out fighting" type of attacks you see in many of the videos as opposed to the "one-attack-at-a-time" approach we practiced in the father's dojo. As I've said before, if you didn't neutralize the attacker on the first attack, he would immediately follow up and follow up and follow up, but in Hiroo's style, it seems that the attacker enters with five attacks in a split second, followed by twenty-five follow-ups in the next half second. That's far more realistic, though some of the padded-sword demos show the attacker keeping on even after he has been hit by the "sword," which I can't say I understand.

In any case, my meetings with and observations of Hiroo Mochizuki have always been impressive as he gets down to tiny details and is always concerned with developing a strong body and performing tehcniques and ukemi in ways that protect the body much more than traditional martial arts, which can actually damage the body when they place form over function. Hiroo Sensei is not afraid to change the form to support the function.

Best to you.

David

phil farmer
09-22-2007, 01:52 PM
Tim,

I can answer your question now about the demonstration on Youtube that you posted. Shihan is doing Hasshaku ken Yodan from the series of kata that make up the curriculum of Yoseikan Budo. The Hasshakuken kata (1-5) are kata that demonstrate the throws and joint locks of yoseikan budo. That particular kata is intended to demonstrate the breathing (very gutteral) and muscle tension/release that accompanies each throw (projection) or punch (atemi). That demonstration was at the 2007 World Cup in Brussels and Shihan makes for an awesome demonstrator at age 71, especially the incredible muscle tone he shows. And he seems to love to take his gi top off as often as possible to demonstrate that muscle tone. The muscle control and breathing are part of the undulation motion. As you think about this motion, all who are posting here, please try to remember, it is a natural movement and a natural feeling but demands a very relaxed body in order to do it. Shihan is quite adamant that Yoseikan Budo should be good for your body (okay, so not the joint lock if you are receiving it but you get the idea). By the way, that is me sitting in the first chair of referees taking the pictures.

Phil Farmer

Tim Fong
09-22-2007, 06:13 PM
Thanks Phil.

Tim