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dps
09-05-2007, 05:50 AM
Other then Judo and Aikido was there any other martial art he studied?

Thank You
David

wildaikido
09-05-2007, 07:07 AM
Other then Judo and Aikido was there any other martial art he studied?

Thank You
David

Does the fact that it was not called Aikido when he started count :p

Being a senior in the Kodokan, although not located at the kodokan, you would expect that Tomiki would have done as Kano suggested, and studied some koryu arts. I would be interested to know were the Jo and Ken comes from in Shodokan, as O'Sensei would not have done much in the way of weapons when Tomiki learnt the majority of his Aikido.

Looking forward to read the replies from those in the know.

Regards,

DonMagee
09-05-2007, 07:40 AM
I'd love more info on this. Tomiki is one of my favorite figures in history to read about.

xuzen
09-05-2007, 08:30 AM
I have read some comment by PeterR somewhere where he said the Shodokan sword/bokken kata comes from the Onna-ha itto ryu kenjutsu school. If my memory serves me correctly.

Boon.

dps
09-05-2007, 08:51 AM
Does the fact that it was not called Aikido when he started count :p

Yes.:)

David

wildaikido
09-05-2007, 09:08 AM
I have read some comment by PeterR somewhere where he said the Shodokan sword/bokken kata comes from the Onna-ha itto ryu kenjutsu school. If my memory serves me correctly.

Boon.

Interesting, will have to wait for Peter to respond.

Regards,

PeterR
09-05-2007, 09:11 AM
I have read some comment by PeterR somewhere where he said the Shodokan sword/bokken kata comes from the Onna-ha itto ryu kenjutsu school. If my memory serves me correctly.

So I'm told - the sword work was taught to Tomiki by Ueshiba who learnt it from Takeda - and that was Onna-ha itto ryu kenjutsu.

The Yari techniques also came via Ueshiba. Interestingly Diane Skoss makes a point that the yari techniques resemble jukendo (not sure I agree but she is ranked in both so an opinion worth listening to). Ueshiba trained in (and taught) bayonet in the army.

Ueshiba also trained Omoto-kyo followers in Yari techniques and they apparently held their own against army troops when they attempted to shut Deguchi down.

So I think it is incorrect to say

O'Sensei would not have done much in the way of weapons when Tomiki learnt the majority of his Aikido.

Tomiki was apparently swinging a bokken from age six and has quite some rank in Kendo but I am not sure how honorary that is and what time period he got them.

Mochizuki relates how he showed Tomiki to hold a sword, who knows perhaps Tomiki was humoring his junior.

With respect to the Shodokan system - I think much of the codification may have been heavily influenced by Ohba, Tomiki's long term training partner.

PeterR
09-06-2007, 02:06 AM
Being a senior in the Kodokan, although not located at the kodokan, you would expect that Tomiki would have done as Kano suggested, and studied some koryu arts.

One would think that the motivation for seeking out Ueshiba had much to do with that culture of exploration. Certainly his meeting with Kano a couple of years before meeting Ueshiba had great influence on him.

Also at the time, although he may have been a talented fifth dan at 26, he was not senior at the Kodokan. He was considered a student of Kano and trained at the Kodokan but was a student at Waseda university. Seniors tend to be older and greyer. A similar situation is seen today with university students from various universities spending an awful lot of time making the trip to Shodokan Honbu in addition to their own clubs (I don't think they ever study).

Ellis Amdur
09-06-2007, 06:15 AM
Tomiki did not study Ono-ha Itto-ryu nor did Ueshiba. Tomiki was taught some elements of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, something Ueshiba was investigating with Gejo Kosaburo. I got this info directly from Shishida. Jukendo was taught at the Kobukan at that time as well.
Best
Ellis amdur

PeterR
09-06-2007, 06:36 AM
Tomiki did not study Ono-ha Itto-ryu nor did Ueshiba. Tomiki was taught some elements of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, something Ueshiba was investigating with Gejo Kosaburo. I got this info directly from Shishida. Jukendo was taught at the Kobukan at that time as well.

Well I was told that the sword work came via Takeda and did not say either Ueshiba or Tomiki directly studied Ono-ha Itto-ryu but of course Takeda did. Still if Shishida made the statement he is more than likely right - I never asked him about this.

wildaikido
09-06-2007, 07:09 AM
One would think that the motivation for seeking out Ueshiba had much to do with that culture of exploration. Certainly his meeting with Kano a couple of years before meeting Ueshiba had great influence on him.

Also at the time, although he may have been a talented fifth dan at 26, he was not senior at the Kodokan. He was considered a student of Kano and trained at the Kodokan but was a student at Waseda university. Seniors tend to be older and greyer. A similar situation is seen today with university students from various universities spending an awful lot of time making the trip to Shodokan Honbu in addition to their own clubs (I don't think they ever study).

:eek: I would think of a fifth dan as a senior!

I guess I just made some bad assumptions based on what Kano had said to Mochizuki when he was a third dan. Hence I assumed someone of Tomiki's calibre would have also been encourage to train and study in preparation for being a leader in the kodokan.

Regards,

PeterR
09-06-2007, 11:04 AM
:eek: I would think of a fifth dan as a senior!

I guess I just made some bad assumptions based on what Kano had said to Mochizuki when he was a third dan. Hence I assumed someone of Tomiki's calibre would have also been encourage to train and study in preparation for being a leader in the kodokan.

Well no mater how talented no third year university student could ever be considered a senior in an organization such as the Kodokan.

Anyway, no I don't think you made any bad assumptions. Kano encouraged young students that had potential. I've heard the phrase "had Kano's interest" applied to a number of people. I think his view was much broader than just the Kodokan in that many of these people were sent outside the institution to teach.

From all accounts Tomiki and his brother discovered Ueshiba on their own initiative through the suggestion of a friend but I dare say the idea of doing so had much to do with the influence of Kano. Several years later Kano specifically sent Mochizuki and one other to Ueshiba - a much more direct approach. Still, I really don't see much distinction between subtle and direct.

David Orange
09-07-2007, 09:22 AM
One would think that the motivation for seeking out Ueshiba had much to do with that culture of exploration. Certainly his meeting with Kano a couple of years before meeting Ueshiba had great influence on him.

Mochizuki Sensei has talked a lot about the Classical Budo Research Group (Kobudo Kenkyukai?) that Kano Sensei established at the Kodokan to bring back more of the traditional budo spirit because he felt that judo was gradually becoming a wrestling-style sport and losing the essence of Japanese culture. So he had capable people train in karate with Funakoshi, sword at Katori Shinto Ryu and aiki-jujutsu with Morihei Ueshiba. Mochizuki, himself, trained in all of those and others. I have gotten the impression that the only people sent to train with Ueshiba were in the Kobudo Kenkyukai, so maybe Tomiki was in that and had some koryu or karate training during those days. I may also have heard that Tomiki went to Ueshiba before Kano sent people from the Kobudo Kenkyukai...don't know.

But Kano was encouraging capable (if not senior) men at Kodokan to train in the old arts around that time.

Best to you.

David

David Orange
09-07-2007, 09:24 AM
From all accounts Tomiki and his brother discovered Ueshiba on their own initiative through the suggestion of a friend but I dare say the idea of doing so had much to do with the influence of Kano.

That's what I'm talking about.

But I don't think I've ever seen it stated that Tomiki was actually a member of Kobudo Kenkyukai. Don't know.

David

PeterR
09-07-2007, 10:08 AM
But I don't think I've ever seen it stated that Tomiki was actually a member of Kobudo Kenkyukai. Don't know.

Well I never heard it either and probably not - the timing doesn't seem right.

Some dates:
1926 Tomiki joins Ueshiba
1928 formation of the Kobudo Kenkyukai
1929 Tomiki was a working man in Miyagi Prefecture
1930 Kano visits Ueshiba (makes the true budo statement) and sends two of his students.

However, it should be noted that Tomiki made a study of old styles of jujutsu on both the technical and theoretical levels over the years. We know that because he describes the adaptation of various Ueshiba techniques to kata form using certain koryu as model. He was also a major influence in the development of Judo's Goshin no kata which of course included koryu jujutsu in addition to aikido techniques. That doesn't mean he was enrolled in particular schools but it appears he had a pretty wide knowledge.

PeterR
09-08-2007, 11:40 PM
Well I wrote Shishida Shihan about Ellis's comment and a few other things and got back a nice long letter. I'll just quote the relevant part.

I don’t remember Ellis Amdur, but his remark is almost correct.
Only incorrect part is, “Ueshiba was investigating with Gejo Kosaburo”. The correct answer is “Ueshiba was taught Yagyu-ryu with Gejo Kosaburo and they exchange each own martial art”, I believe. One year later my article about those things will be published with lots of articles in the book by ISHPES. I have already sent my draft last year.

Your question to the origins of the kumitachi (also of the yari) is my question. I will clarify them but I need more time.

One learns something new each day so thanks Ellis. I have been trying to remember who specifically told me about the Ono-ha Itto-ryu connection or was it just me wrongly extrapolating. Shishida talks to a lot of people so no biggy that he did not remember Ellis- took him a bit before he remembered my name without prompting.

L. Camejo
09-09-2007, 06:51 AM
Peter the information you gave is quite interesting.

I asked Shishida Shihan this exact question regarding the Shodokan sword work and where it came from while he was visiting with us in 2004.

His words (if I remember correctly) were "This comes directly from Professor Tomiki as taught to him by Ueshiba Sensei".

However, in subsequent bokken training sessions Shishida also showed me the same fundamental bokken movements but from the perspective of Ono Ha Itto Ryu, which he personally had some exposure to. That this form was in fact On Ha Itto Ryu was confirmed later on by the local Kendo Sensei who has experienced that Ryu before in his Kendo training.

I'm getting the feeling that maybe there was an influence from more than one Koryu system upon Tomiki's approach to the bokken/sword (Yagyu Ryu via Ueshiba Sensei and Ono ha Itto Ryu via ???). This would be most interesting to research. Tomiki did train in Daito/Ueshiba Ryu Aikijujutsu/Aikibudo when he was Ueshiba M.'s student so the Daito Ryu influence was still very heavy then I'd imagine.

Also, I know Ohba Sensei had a lot to do with the formulation of the Shodokan syllabus and that he had Dan ranks in many methods. I wonder if he had any koryu sword exposure as well.

Very very interesting.

Regards.
LC:ai::ki:

Ellis Amdur
09-09-2007, 07:25 AM
Hi Peter - Odd that Shishida-san doesn't remember me as he is my kohai in Toda-ha Buko-ryu. Perhaps that will refresh his memory as to who I am???
(I asked the question thru some other people as I was back in the states).
Best

PeterR
09-09-2007, 07:45 AM
Hi Peter - Odd that Shishida-san doesn't remember me as he is my kohai in Toda-ha Buko-ryu. Perhaps that will refresh his memory as to who I am???
(I asked the question thru some other people as I was back in the states).
Best
Ellis - I am sure he would with some prompting. I caught him in an aha moment myself the second and third time I met him. I also find myself more of a face person than a name person - I suspect he is like that also. Personally I don't doubt that you did ask him and he did answer you and appreciate you pointing what you were told. It sure added to my knowledge.

If you want I will write him a short note about you but I wouldn't worry about it.

Ellis Amdur
09-09-2007, 05:15 PM
Nah, I don't care. He's my kohai. ;) Just found it amusing.

EA