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Jess McDonald
09-01-2007, 12:35 AM
YO!! Uhhh...so who are you training for...I mean like who are you training to fight...if anyone at all...just wondering...:confused:

PS I know this is loaded question but without bringing philosophy into it, I like to think I'm training to protect myself (and others if need be) from "bad men", like in 28 days later (the scene with the soldiers; sorry for the vague movie reference). However, as I think about this I really should throw in some type of grappling training since I'm pathetic in wrestling...whoa, sorry for rambling...what do you think?
LATE!! :) :cool:

tarik
09-01-2007, 01:24 AM
YO!! Uhhh...so who are you training for...I mean like who are you training to fight...if anyone at all...just wondering...:confused:

I train for myself. (See my signature).

Regards,

eyrie
09-01-2007, 02:02 AM
Training for "fighting"? Isn't that antithetical to the entire spiritual philosophy of aikido?

As much as I enjoy grapplin and wrasslin, I'd have to say I train for myself, so as NOT to fight myself OR anyone else.

Mark Uttech
09-01-2007, 04:13 AM
I think that we train for self and others, much the same as the why of why we live at all.

In gassho,

Mark

Mark Freeman
09-01-2007, 06:16 AM
I train for me, I train to fight no one.

regards,

Mark

SeiserL
09-01-2007, 06:54 AM
I train to train.
Not necessarily for anything or anyone.
Just enjoy the process.
Best way I know to reach and surpass any goal is set a direction and enjoy the trip

wildaikido
09-01-2007, 10:54 AM
Training for "fighting"? Isn't that antithetical to the entire spiritual philosophy of aikido?

Ah no, the principle of Budo is you train for war to have peace.

If you have a country of Oompa Lumpa, and next door is a country of Klingon's, guess what's going to happen if the Oompa's just make candy? That's right, eventually the Klingon's have a lovely meal, and some candy to boot after wards.

it is wrong to be weak

Mark Freeman
09-01-2007, 11:16 AM
Ah no, the principle of Budo is you train for war to have peace.

If you have a country of Oompa Lumpa, and next door is a country of Klingon's, guess what's going to happen if the Oompa's just make candy? That's right, eventually the Klingon's have a lovely meal, and some candy to boot after wards.

Not if the Oompa Lumpans have been selling the Klingons candy for many years, thereby building a tidy stash of cash, which they use to buy big scary weapons from the neighbouring country of Jedi, then tell the Klingons, that if they step one foot over their border, then they will blow their ugly butts to kingdom come ( another country much further away) as well as cutting off their supply of candy! ;)

wildaikido
09-01-2007, 11:40 AM
Not if the Oompa Lumpans have been selling the Klingons candy for many years, thereby building a tidy stash of cash, which they use to buy big scary weapons from the neighbouring country of Jedi, then tell the Klingons, that if they step one foot over their border, then they will blow their ugly butts to kingdom come ( another country much further away) as well as cutting off their supply of candy! ;)

So that's the "martial way" of the Oompa Lumpa! Their superior candy making skill has enabled them to harmonise with the Klingon's and blend with the Jedi. Sounds like Aikido to me :D

Edit.

This is like the story of the tea master. He attracted the attention of a ronin, who challenged him to a duel. The tea master tried to decline but since he was wearing his daisho he had to accept, even though he had never learnt to use them. The duel was arranged for the following day. So the tea master went to the local sword sensei and asked him to teach him. The sensei said let us have some tea. After which the sensei said, "I can teach you nothing." So the next day at the duel, the tea master asked the ronin to have tea with him first, due to his perfect technique when performing the ceremony the ronin ran away.

Christopher Gee
09-01-2007, 12:36 PM
I train to become strong, should I need to impose my strength on other I will.

'Heiho wa heiho nari' - Otake Risuke
The methods of war are the methods of peace.

Osu

RomaZu
09-01-2007, 12:56 PM
As for me, there's no difference whether you train for yourself, to become stronger, for self-defense or anything else, because if you train, then obviously you do have a goal and you are trying to reach this goal. Of course, it would be sad if your goal is to break somebody's neck once you've got enough experience in Aikido or any other martial art :D

Ryan Sanford
09-01-2007, 01:12 PM
YO!! Uhhh...so who are you training for...I mean like who are you training to fight...if anyone at all...just wondering...:confused:

PS I know this is loaded question but without bringing philosophy into it, I like to think I'm training to protect myself (and others if need be) from "bad men", like in 28 days later (the scene with the soldiers; sorry for the vague movie reference). However, as I think about this I really should throw in some type of grappling training since I'm pathetic in wrestling...whoa, sorry for rambling...what do you think?
LATE!! :) :cool:

I would love to be able to say that I train simply to improve myself as a human being, and to bring an end to conflict in my life and etc. However, I of course daydream about saving everyone with my uber (but not real) Aikido skills and about throwing knife wielding baddies Steven-Segal-movie-style across the room. :hypno:

But hell, I'm young still, I'm allowed to think that. :p

wildaikido
09-01-2007, 02:29 PM
'Heiho wa heiho nari' - Otake Risuke
The methods of war are the methods of peace.

I prefer "The art of war is the art of peace."

Chuck.Gordon
09-01-2007, 03:19 PM
Jess,

I'm an old soldier and I've been a cop.And I was a stupid kid who thought I had a clue. I've fought "bad men" (and Good Men), in many situations.

Budo ain't got nothing to do with fighting like you seem to think it does.

Seriously.

Jess McDonald
09-01-2007, 07:53 PM
Yo!!
First. I'm not referring to regular old soldiers (hell I was in the USMC), I'm talking about you know like rape (see said film; by the way Selina kicks ass). Sorry I had to be so blatant but obviously subtly didn't work.:o

Second, thank you to those of you who actually answered the question. We all train for ourselves but there has to be more of a motive to it than just that. It takes guts to say the truth. :cool:

Third. Martial Arts are for war. Get with reality or you'll lose when Mother Earth's Apocalypse finally comes. :dead:

Fourth. If there's Jedi around then the Sith are not far behind and we're all doomed regardless of any training (unless of course you have the Force).;) :p

Josh Reyer
09-01-2007, 09:07 PM
I train for those I knew yesterday, those I'm meeting today, and those I will meet tomorrow. Some I will help, some I will hinder, but I train so that it is the right choice either way.

Larry Cuvin
09-01-2007, 09:35 PM
I train to improve my character.

Roman Kremianski
09-01-2007, 10:02 PM
I just train so I'd have a purpose. Yay.

Jess McDonald
09-01-2007, 10:57 PM
Word.

Mark Uttech
09-02-2007, 09:18 AM
The act of bowing saves the world.

In gassho,

Mark

Josh Reyer
09-02-2007, 10:27 AM
The act of bowing saves the world.


Doesn't seem to be doing much over here...

Eric Joyce
09-02-2007, 10:42 AM
What's your goal? Mastery over self, exercise, self defense, learning budo?

Keith Larman
09-02-2007, 11:58 AM
The answer I've given someone training with me was to ask him another question. Do you really need some sort of functional, long term necessity to appeal to in order to make it worthwhile?

No one asks me why I enjoy tennis. Or hiking. Or collecting sword fittings. Or playing hide and seek with my daughter. What's the point of all that?

For me the real question is "what is the alternative?" Sitting on one's flabby butt contemplating your own naval lint?

*Do* something. Anything. If you find you enjoy the process (as Lynn Seiser already pointed out) then that should be good enough.

I train in Aikido because I train in Aikido. I like it. I enjoy the process. Stay long enough and you realize that you don't really have any "long term goal" hanging way out there in the future. The beauty of the hike in the countryside isn't the end of the trip but the path along the way...

Mark Uttech
09-02-2007, 08:06 PM
Doesn't seem to be doing much over here...
Onegaishimasu. Even so, you have to try. The act of bowing in class communicates your intention to save the world.

In gassho,

Mark

mathewjgano
09-02-2007, 09:08 PM
YO!! Uhhh...so who are you training for...I mean like who are you training to fight...if anyone at all...just wondering...:confused:
LATE!! :) :cool:

Well, at any given moment I'm training for something fairly specific, but overall, i'm training to "fight" everyone; anywhere; any time...and that usually means I'm training to "fight" myself since everything I do and all the subsequent results tend to stem from me, myself, and I...that is to say, I can't control the world around, only the way in which i interact with it. i find when I work on personal development, the world around becomes easier to deal with.
Ogenkide,
Matt

eyrie
09-02-2007, 09:49 PM
Martial Arts are for war. That would be military arts... NOT "martial arts". These days we use guns, bombs, rockets and missiles to kill from a distance. The days of hand-to-hand combat with short range weaponry is over. Tanks have replaced chariots and calvary. Artillery and aircraft have replaced archers and canons. Hardly an "art", really. Martial arts used in the modern context refers to something completely different - typically as in systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat.

Also, "fight" is a very narrow definition of war... which is so much more strategy and less so "fighting". I can't imagine what "war" one could possibly be involved in to warrant training to "fight" in, in an everyday living context. Rape? We are being raped everyday... by banks, big business, and self-serving politicians and bureaucrats. Yeah, it's war... let's fight them too.

Do you have children? Ever smack them? What does that teach them? That violence works? How long has the war in the Middle East been going on for? Close to half a century? How long has the "conflict" gone on for in Iraq? The only "conflict" there is one of interest. How long will this oxymoronic "war on terror" go on for? Like the "war on drugs"?

Is it working? You think? Yeah, let us fight... to the death. Fatwah and jihad on the infidels... yes, a great example to set to your children. In the words of Whitfield and Strong, war... what is it good for?

IMO, "fighting" is for amateurs, bullies, cowards and weaklings. It takes a really strong person to stand up for peace, love, and humanity. And I would hope that is what we train for, and what we will teach the next generation - to value lives, not take it.

Hopefully, as a result of that training, one develops the strength (and maybe some strategies and tactics) to be able to STOP or PREVENT an assault on your person or someone else - the REAL meaning of budo, and not to "fight".

DonMagee
09-02-2007, 10:05 PM
YO!! Uhhh...so who are you training for...I mean like who are you training to fight...if anyone at all...just wondering...:confused:

PS I know this is loaded question but without bringing philosophy into it, I like to think I'm training to protect myself (and others if need be) from "bad men", like in 28 days later (the scene with the soldiers; sorry for the vague movie reference). However, as I think about this I really should throw in some type of grappling training since I'm pathetic in wrestling...whoa, sorry for rambling...what do you think?
LATE!! :) :cool:

I train to fight a few things, like the onset of type 2 diabetes. Lately however, my training has been to beat judoka at 155 pounds.

mathewjgano
09-03-2007, 12:28 PM
That would be military arts... NOT "martial arts".
Well, technically, Jess it right. The term, "martial" refers to war/military; hence we have martial music refering to military music such as "stars and stripes forever." After reading the rest of your post I'm pretty sure we're ultimately in agrement though.
The difficulty, I think, of defining the "art of war" is the term "art." Aside from all the slights in semantic differences which different people bring to different words already, "art" says nothing specific about method. Two groups fight the same war with a different art. While I absolutely hate the "war on drugs" and the "war on terror" for the utterly meaninglessness I perceive in them, I still understand the projected meaning behind them. In my opinion, this relates to the "mcdojo." When commercialism prevails over behavior, it cheapens things.
So to tie my rambling back into the thread here...this all provides a background for who I train for. i can't assume people will play my game and it is for just this reason that "war" (in all it's subtle applications in meaning) is so dangerous that it shouldn't be treaded into lightly. It's such a chaotic event that only a fool, though that fool may be lucky, would willingly go...not to say I don't believe in the role of military. Part of what makes such a thing noble is that they knowingly (ideally) place themselves in danger. Part of what makes it such a tragedy is that others take them for granted while touting how noble they are at the same time. ...but...that's another matter altogether.
Take care all.

Marie Noelle Fequiere
09-03-2007, 12:30 PM
Motivation is something that changes with time, experience, and circumstances.
I started martial arts out of mere curiosity. I was taking dance classes, and a karate teacher in need for a dojo made a deal with my dance teacher to share her studio. So I thought, why not try? I suck at dancing, anyway.
So I started to train, to find that I also sucked at karate. So I thought, I don't care if I suck or not. I need a hobby, and I'll stick with anything that does not require me to be able to turn my legs out.
Then, about a year later, I realized that being able to fight back could be useful, and I improved because I had a more serious motivation.
Then, as the years went by, I found out that I was more fit than most of former classmates. Another motivation.
Then, I think, there is also the simple pleasure of socializing.
Come back with this same question in a few more years, and I may have found yet another motivation.

lbb
09-03-2007, 08:36 PM
Yo!!
First. I'm not referring to regular old soldiers (hell I was in the USMC), I'm talking about you know like rape (see said film; by the way Selina kicks ass). Sorry I had to be so blatant but obviously subtly didn't work.:o

Well, because you were too generic -- and because people took your question somewhat seriously, which meant discarding the associated fantasy of training for some situation out of a movie. Sure, you can watch post-apocalyptic movies and "train" to handle those Hollywood dangers. But I don't think most people regard that as more than idle fantasizing.

Second, thank you to those of you who actually answered the question. We all train for ourselves but there has to be more of a motive to it than just that.

No, there doesn't -- and now you're calling people liars.

It takes guts to say the truth. :cool:

It takes arrogance to presume that you know someone else's reasons, and humility to accept that your reasons are not shared by everyone.

Third. Martial Arts are for war. Get with reality or you'll lose when Mother Earth's Apocalypse finally comes. :dead:

What on earth do you think is going to happen when "Mother Earth's Apocalypse" comes, and how on earth do you think that any "war" training is going to help you?

mathewjgano
09-03-2007, 09:21 PM
Well, technically, Jess [is] right. The term, "martial" refers to war/military...

Just so I'm clear with my intent (I hope):
"martial arts" includes far more than simply "war arts." Simply saying martial arts are for war implies something very very limited in scope. Sensei Barrish recently described how he doesn't really like the phrase, "martial art." Aikido to him, as i think I understand it, transcends the duality of self and other. It was mentioned ealier that there isn't really a "fight" included in Aikido. Perhaps that's just semantics, i don't know, but in that line of thinking, for me at least, Aikido training is about taking what you've got and making the most out of it for everyone involved...and that especially applies to when we feel insulted or otherwise attacked. It's TOTALLY the best political art: put everything in a positive spin, man! ...sort of :confused: :D
I sure do love those icons...
Anyhoo...
Cheers!

eyrie
09-03-2007, 10:19 PM
Well, no. Martial arts, in common usage today, refers to a codified system of tradition and practice of training for (hand-to-hand) combat. The conduct of modern military warfare (i.e. war) is completely different.

Does your "martial art" of choice teach you things like troop movement and deployment, how to call for an artillery or airstrike, how to setup an ambush, how to effect an orderly retreat while laying down suppresive fire, how to clear a building - room by room, how to read and use the terrain, how to use tank and armored calvary in coordination with troop movement, how air and sea support is used, how to silence sentries, etc. etc. etc.?

You might use a "martial art" to fight (as in competitively or as a sport) or in self-defence, but nobody fights battles in a theatre of ops with what we call "martial arts". So, technically, even though such codified practices were derived from ancient hand-to-hand combative techniques, and it bears a name which pays homage to the Roman god of war, it would be incorrect to say "Martial Arts is for war" as it is no longer used in that context.

Perhaps this is why certain koryu traditions don't label themselves as bujutsu, but as heiho - the more appropriately fitting "military methods". And of course the pun on "hei" meaning peace.

AFAIK, Aikido is neither bujutsu or heiho. The old man specifically said, aiki is the true meaning of budo - which to my mind, either everyone else has got it wrong (i.e. budo is for fighting), or the old man was tripping out on amanita mushrooms as he found himself enveloped in a golden mist of peace and love (yeah baby!) and meant something else.

mathewjgano
09-04-2007, 11:19 AM
Well, no. Martial arts, in common usage today, refers to a codified system of tradition and practice of training for (hand-to-hand) combat. The conduct of modern military warfare (i.e. war) is completely different.
I'm assuming you're talking to me...
I said "technically" and referenced "martial music" to illustrate my meaning. I wasn't refering to common usage, which is why I also said overall I think we're in agreement.
Does your "martial art" of choice teach you things like troop movement and deployment...laying down suppresive fire...how to read and use the terrain...how to silence sentries, etc. etc. etc.?
Purely to be pedantic, but yeah, though only in the most abstract sense of these things; not in the particulars of modern warfare.
...but nobody fights battles in a theatre of ops with what we call "martial arts". So, technically, even though such codified practices were derived from ancient hand-to-hand combative techniques, and it bears a name which pays homage to the Roman god of war, it would be incorrect to say "Martial Arts is for war" as it is no longer used in that context.
Generally speaking, no, you're right. However, I think hand-to-hand combat is still recognized as a part of modern warfare or you wouldn't have focused training in them.
AFAIK,
???
Aikido is neither bujutsu or heiho. The old man specifically said, aiki is the true meaning of budo - which to my mind, either everyone else has got it wrong (i.e. budo is for fighting), or the old man was tripping out on amanita mushrooms as he found himself enveloped in a golden mist of peace and love (yeah baby!) and meant something else.
The more I read of what people have ascribed to the meaning of budo (or to what the founder "really" meant), etc. the less I want to hear from others and find out for myself. Words have a funny way of taking on a life of their own...especially in our wide world of web-proliferated info. I already get confused enough as it is...though I know I'll keep trying to wrap my mind around these kinds of things...I'm a glutton for punishment. :o
Take care.