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mrfeldmeyer
08-30-2007, 10:49 AM
I've just read an article by Stanley Pranin at AJs website called "The Virtues of Aikido" that presented more of the downfalls of "modern aikido", that the virtues necessarily.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=599

One part of the article that really hit home however, is the paragraph about the lack of kiai.

Specifically this sentence: "Yet in many dojos today, the use of atemi or kiai will draw scorn from the teacher in charge who regards them as crude, violent means that have no place in an art of “harmony.”

I feel that in the dojo I currently train at, we have accomplished fixing most of the downfalls of the article (atemi, weak attacks, lack of kuzushi, etc...), but we definitely pay little attention to kiai and/or breath exercises in general. I have kind of assumed breathing properly would just come to me as my training continued, but have never even thought about the lack of kiai.

Does anyone utilize kiai or breath training in their aikido practice, and if so has it helped you bring your training to a higher level?

Chuck Clark
08-30-2007, 11:12 AM
Matthew,

Breath control and kiai training are contained within the kata. You're getting those already and when you get to a higher level of understanding you'll be "polishing" the breath and kiai aspects of your practice.

odudog
08-30-2007, 11:16 AM
A lot of people have to use their voice in order to make a living, so having to kiai all the time will hurt their professional career {laryngitis}. Hence, no more kiai. Ha, ha!

mrfeldmeyer
08-30-2007, 11:31 AM
Matthew,

Breath control and kiai training are contained within the kata. You're getting those already and when you get to a higher level of understanding you'll be "polishing" the breath and kiai aspects of your practice.

Thank you Sensei, can't wait to have you come back and visit us in October.

Lan Powers
08-30-2007, 11:31 AM
Treat every technique as you would a kokyu-nage (breath throw)
and the breath training is taken care of.....
.Kiaii when you want the startlement factor ( and need to commit 100% i.e. the real life or death situation)
Commit as much as much as possible at every practice, of course, but the startling, peircing, pause in your tracks like you've been stunned aspect is a "use as needed" sort of thing to me.

Just my take on it, for what it is worth
Lan

tedehara
08-30-2007, 11:44 AM
...Does anyone utilize kiai or breath training in their aikido practice, and if so has it helped you bring your training to a higher level?Breathing exercise and kiai are part of the Ki Society curriculum. My experience is that it does help your training.

However I wouldn't do a real kiai in the dojo because it rips my throat apart and I lose my voice. In his book "Ki: A Practical Guide for Westerners", Will Reed suggests no more than seven kiai for one training session.

Instructors in the Maui Ki Society are suggesting one hour of breathing exercise per day. This is a hard schedule to follow, but it does show how much they have embraced it.

By concentrating just on techniques, you stop the other aspects of aikido. I've come to realize this just by reflecting on my own practice.

gdandscompserv
08-30-2007, 11:58 AM
I liked Stan's article. All good advise.
Regarding breath training. I think it is essential to all forms of budo. I know I don't work on it often enough.:o
I found a good article on breath training here:
http://everything-zen.netfirms.com/skm%20articles.htm#art-3
I do get lots of ukemi in though.

wildaikido
08-30-2007, 12:17 PM
I've just read an article by Stanley Pranin at AJs website called "The Virtues of Aikido" that presented more of the downfalls of "modern aikido", that the virtues necessarily.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=599

One part of the article that really hit home however, is the paragraph about the lack of kiai.

Great article, it points out many a problem with some "modern" Aikido.

We could all learn from this article, and no one can deny that Mr Pranin is correct; I mean he is Stanley Pranin the editor of Aikido Journal!

Regards,

lbb
08-30-2007, 01:39 PM
A lot of people have to use their voice in order to make a living, so having to kiai all the time will hurt their professional career {laryngitis}. Hence, no more kiai. Ha, ha!

Heh, yeah, funny. If you're doing proper kiai, you can do it for hours and it won't hurt your voice in the least.

Josh Reyer
08-30-2007, 02:15 PM
I would submit that if you avoid kiai because it effects your voice, then you are not doing kiai correctly. That isn't even really aikido experience talking; any trained actor or singer will say the same thing.

FWIW from an aikido perspective, when I trained in an Iwama-style dojo, we used kiai on every technique (uke would kiai when grabbing tori, and tori would kiai when executing technique) as well as with every strike with bokuto and jo. No one had a problem with their voices.

Nafis Zahir
08-30-2007, 03:02 PM
I've just read an article by Stanley Pranin at AJs website called "The Virtues of Aikido" that presented more of the downfalls of "modern aikido", that the virtues necessarily.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=599

One part of the article that really hit home however, is the paragraph about the lack of kiai.

Specifically this sentence: "Yet in many dojos today, the use of atemi or kiai will draw scorn from the teacher in charge who regards them as crude, violent means that have no place in an art of "harmony."

I feel that in the dojo I currently train at, we have accomplished fixing most of the downfalls of the article (atemi, weak attacks, lack of kuzushi, etc...), but we definitely pay little attention to kiai and/or breath exercises in general. I have kind of assumed breathing properly would just come to me as my training continued, but have never even thought about the lack of kiai.

Does anyone utilize kiai or breath training in their aikido practice, and if so has it helped you bring your training to a higher level?

I once asked this same question here at aikiweb and got booed off of the stage. The attitude by the few who responded was that I needed to stop crying. This type of training is very rare. I do them both and also do them when I am doing weapons training. For those who don't, you can see that later on in their training, once they have reached shodan and above, they lack extension and ki in their techniques and tend to use alot of muscle. Breathing helps you relax which is what you need in order to be effective. But I doubt that this type of training will rise up again in dojos around the world. I suggest that those interested do some research and do it on their own.

Mike Sigman
08-30-2007, 03:17 PM
However I wouldn't do a real kiai in the dojo because it rips my throat apart and I lose my voice. In his book "Ki: A Practical Guide for Westerners", Will Reed suggests no more than seven kiai for one training session.

Instructors in the Maui Ki Society are suggesting one hour of breathing exercise per day. This is a hard schedule to follow, but it does show how much they have embraced it.
Ted, I don't know this Will Reed, but I'd like to see what he does. Kiai and "breathing exercises" work the same thing.

Best.

Mike

Gonçalo Alves
08-30-2007, 03:21 PM
if aikido is a martial art, it must be trained in a martial way and there no martial way without sacrifice and hard training!!!
someone that trains without kiai is not doing aikido!!

mrfeldmeyer
08-30-2007, 04:43 PM
I guess I should probably have refined my original post. Obviously breath training comes with practice, practice, and more practice. I have only been practicing for a little over two years, so I'm sure that is developing as it should.

if aikido is a martial art, it must be trained in a martial way and there no martial way without sacrifice and hard training!!!
someone that trains without kiai is not doing aikido!!

The Kiai that I was referring to, would be the verbal "earth shattering" release of energy from the vocal cords, diaphragm etc...
The one that, if you believe the stories, would kill small birds nearby as it is realeased. If nothing else, it would completely overcome an enemy with confusion during your technique.

This is something that I have used (obviously not killing small birds) while practicing Hoki Ryu Iaido from day one, but have seen very little of when attending seminars or aikido events in general.

Mike Sigman
08-30-2007, 04:55 PM
The Kiai that I was referring to, would be the verbal "earth shattering" release of energy from the vocal cords, diaphragm etc...
The one that, if you believe the stories, would kill small birds nearby as it is realeased. If nothing else, it would completely overcome an enemy with confusion during your technique.
So assuming that energy is neither created nor destroyed during such a kiai (i.e., there must be an energetic bookkeeping balance between cause and effect), how would you suggest these things happen? Sound? Sound plus some accompanying phenomena (if so, what?)? Seismic activity? An "unseen, unknowable energy" (remember that in the real universe, energy out does not exceed energy in)?

Frankly, I've seen instructors wave their hands and students fall over, but I don't know of any instance in which the energy equations were overcome. So I always suggest that people do a realistic analysis, statics or incremental analyses, etc., before they go chasing unicorns. ;)

Best.

Mike Sigman

mrfeldmeyer
08-30-2007, 05:34 PM
So assuming that energy is neither created nor destroyed during such a kiai (i.e., there must be an energetic bookkeeping balance between cause and effect), how would you suggest these things happen? Sound? Sound plus some accompanying phenomena (if so, what?)? Seismic activity? An "unseen, unknowable energy" (remember that in the real universe, energy out does not exceed energy in)?

Frankly, I've seen instructors wave their hands and students fall over, but I don't know of any instance in which the energy equations were overcome. So I always suggest that people do a realistic analysis, statics or incremental analyses, etc., before they go chasing unicorns. ;)

Best.

Mike Sigman

I was not trying to state that I believe the stories of the dead birds. Just stating that the verbal kiai, which obviously has served a purpose in budo, is something I did not see in many aikido practices today.

Walker
08-30-2007, 06:11 PM
We gots yer earth shatrin key eye right chere. Kirkashinkai. It's a killin' art. Learned it in 'Nam. Gotta kill a man to join. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5iy_Nc_f5Q

Ecosamurai
08-30-2007, 06:13 PM
So assuming that energy is neither created nor destroyed during such a kiai (i.e., there must be an energetic bookkeeping balance between cause and effect), how would you suggest these things happen? Sound? Sound plus some accompanying phenomena (if so, what?)? Seismic activity? An "unseen, unknowable energy" (remember that in the real universe, energy out does not exceed energy in)?

Frankly, I've seen instructors wave their hands and students fall over, but I don't know of any instance in which the energy equations were overcome. So I always suggest that people do a realistic analysis, statics or incremental analyses, etc., before they go chasing unicorns. ;)

Best.

Mike Sigman

Mot sure what all the fuss about kiai is. As far as I'm concerned it's just a way of emphasizing correct breathing with sound. If you practice extensive breathing exercises sounding them is kind of optional IMHO.

The only difference I have noted with regards to kiai practice and Ki-style breathing exercises is that kiai give me a slightly sore throat after a particularly vigorous training session.

We don't use kiai in our aikido but when I started kendo not so long ago they are obviously used. I found that my ki-breathing exercises worked just fine and it took little effort to adjust to making a sound when doing so (other than getting over the self consciousness of doing something I wasn't used to). I noticed one interesting thing however, when utilizing kiai in kendo my arms and body in general tended to tense up, once I spotted that however I managed to move past it and learn to do 'proper' kiai from the hara which don't result in you tensing up in your arms for example. So I suppose the logic of not using kiai works if it encourages tension. But as with all things it's down to the teacher and the way in which it's taught I suppose.

As far as the question you raise Mike, I think the effect on an uke is psychological, if they're not used to having someone scream at the top of their lungs into their face it can be quite shocking (perhaps a reason it isn't practiced much in aikido dojo?). However once you get used to that it doesn't really bother you.

Regards

Mike

PS - Love that you don't know who Will Reed is, kinda puts your self-professed knowledge of ki soc methods into perspective....just having a gentle dig at you, don't take it too seriously. But I kind of get the impression that if you knew as much about Tohei style mind and body development as you often seem to say you do then you'd know who he was ;) He's a 7th dan (I think) in the Ki Society, though I heard recently he'd left and was spending time training with Koretoshi Maruyama now, take that with a pinch of salt as grapevines aren't exactly reliable.

tedehara
08-30-2007, 06:27 PM
Ted, I don't know this Will Reed, but I'd like to see what he does. Kiai and "breathing exercises" work the same thing.

Best.

MikeWilliam Reed (http://www.stlki.org/reed.shtml) was a student of George Simcox who started the St. Louis Ki Society. You can check out his books here. (http://www.b-smart.net/writing.html)

I agree. It's two aspects of the same thing. But it's the one thing that some people find missing in their training. Fortunately you can train on your own. You don't need a partner or dojo to practice this.

SeiserL
08-30-2007, 06:49 PM
We still do them.
Okay, mostly I just make "old man" sounds.

gdandscompserv
08-30-2007, 06:53 PM
We still do them.
Okay, mostly I just make "old man" sounds.
You mean farts?
:p

nekobaka
08-30-2007, 07:03 PM
My sensei, Kazuo Nomura, talks about the power of breath, kokyu ryoku and the importance of kiai a lot. obviously the timing is difficult, it takes time to be able to feel when you should release the kiai. a lot of times you are compressing the energy in your tanden (osaekomi, ikyo), and then other times you are releasing it (throws, kokyu nage). without the kiai I would feel like I was losing all the power of the technique. I don't think that it needs to be that loud, strong or whatever, as long as it starts from stomach (with the stomach muscles tensing) and is release with some force, the vocal cords shouldn't be that important.

Nomura Shihan will have a video about this coming out in oct. from budo international.

Gonçalo Alves
08-30-2007, 07:19 PM
why animals roar when they are fighting or just for intimidate an aggressor or for other reason, wats the purpose!! mib they think that the sound waves will match some collapse frequency and instantly destroy their enemies or killing birds just for fun!!!

we are just animals like others and if i give u a fully strong kiai it will have some effect on you!! if its good or not i dont know, never used it on a real threat, but i believe in those who have more experience ,on fighting and real threats , than me .
so, if they say that kiai is fundamental,i believe.:ki:

Mike Sigman
08-30-2007, 08:56 PM
PS - Love that you don't know who Will Reed is, kinda puts your self-professed knowledge of ki soc methods into perspective....just having a gentle dig at you, don't take it too seriously. But I kind of get the impression that if you knew as much about Tohei style mind and body development as you often seem to say you do then you'd know who he was ;) He's a 7th dan (I think) in the Ki Society, though I heard recently he'd left and was spending time training with Koretoshi Maruyama now, take that with a pinch of salt as grapevines aren't exactly reliable.Great, but that's not what I said. I said I don't know him. Personally, I don't. I'd like to personally see what he does. As far as "who" he is, I'm aware of that. Shoots your whole "self-professed knowledge" dig in the foot, doesn't it?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
08-30-2007, 09:00 PM
My sensei, Kazuo Nomura, talks about the power of breath, kokyu ryoku and the importance of kiai a lot. obviously the timing is difficult, it takes time to be able to feel when you should release the kiai. a lot of times you are compressing the energy in your tanden (osaekomi, ikyo), and then other times you are releasing it (throws, kokyu nage). without the kiai I would feel like I was losing all the power of the technique. I don't think that it needs to be that loud, strong or whatever, as long as it starts from stomach (with the stomach muscles tensing) and is release with some force, the vocal cords shouldn't be that important.

Nomura Shihan will have a video about this coming out in oct. from budo international.Hi Ani:

Good post and pretty close, although it's not exactly the stomach muscles tensing. Please let me know when Nomura Shihan's tape is available; I'd like to see it.

Best.

Mike

Eric Webber
08-30-2007, 09:41 PM
Does anyone utilize kiai or breath training in their aikido practice, and if so has it helped you bring your training to a higher level?

Yes on both counts. Have worked on kiai in a few seminars here and there, have incorporated into practice, typically weapons, but also empty hand. Find kiai very beneficial in weapons practice. Recommend reading William Gleason's "Spiritual Foundations of Aikido" for an interesting perspective on sounds and martial technique. Also see "Bruce Tegner's Complete Book of Karate" (1966, pp.34-36) for specific ideas on kiai practice.

nekobaka
08-31-2007, 01:02 AM
Mike said:
Good post and pretty close, although it's not exactly the stomach muscles tensing. Please let me know when Nomura Shihan's tape is available; I'd like to see it.

The air comes in through your mouth and then forced out again with the kiai, tensing the stomach muscles. the process of coming in and then out is kind of similar to way kokyu ho moves. hard to explain in words though, isn't it.

That's how it feels to me(stomach muscles tensing), how do you think it works?

I'm not sure how much PR I can do here without getting in trouble, but..
he went to spain recently (germany and france as well), and budo international did an article and video, which another guy and I worked very hard to translate and edit, so I hope that a lot of people can see it. It should come out in the october edition of the magazine.

You can pm me if you want more information about it.

Upyu
08-31-2007, 01:09 AM
Mike said:

The air comes in through your mouth and then forced out again with the kiai, tensing the stomach muscles. the process of coming in and then out is kind of similar to way kokyu ho moves. hard to explain in words though, isn't it.

That's how it feels to me(stomach muscles tensing), how do you think it works?

I'm not sure how much PR I can do here without getting in trouble, but..
he went to spain recently (germany and france as well), and budo international did an article and video, which another guy and I worked very hard to translate and edit, so I hope that a lot of people can see it. It should come out in the october edition of the magazine.

You can pm me if you want more information about it.

It's definitely not tensing the stomach muscles.
Maybe "pressurizing" but never tensing.
If it were just "tensing" it, would it be a "secret"? :D

nekobaka
08-31-2007, 02:47 AM
It's definitely not tensing the stomach muscles.
Maybe "pressurizing" but never tensing.
If it were just "tensing" it, would it be a "secret"?


Sure, pressurizing sounds good. I've never been good at putting words to aikido, especially when it's always explained in japanese. you can also say ki is concentrated in the tanden, but that can be a little esoteric.

DH
08-31-2007, 07:52 AM
Kiai ..is..in the tanden. If breath was only breathing with the lungs-there would be no cause for the Japanese term "breath power" to be used in Budo. And -it- has meaning.
Breath power
The living center
Explanations can be meaningless if the building blocks aren't in place. So "how" we pressurize is as important as "what" is being pressed. Or at other times- what is being "pulled" and stretched to press against what. Training is progressive. Does this teacher say just what is doing what? There is more than one way to produce a Kiai. Were you in active, rapid, change-ups in grappling I might say rotating something will produce kiai... as well as toss them on their backsides.

Many men train with Kiai. Many men train in budo. And many men .....golf. Some are expert by consensus, others...by skill. With teachers it can be tough to figure out which is which. It's why we don't look to authority for truth-we look to truth for authority.

Ecosamurai
08-31-2007, 08:27 AM
Great, but that's not what I said. I said I don't know him. Personally, I don't. I'd like to personally see what he does. As far as "who" he is, I'm aware of that. Shoots your whole "self-professed knowledge" dig in the foot, doesn't it?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Not especially, no :) It is what you said. You didn't qualify it and that's how I interpreted it. In any case I can't be bothered getting into it. Better things to do...

Mike

Chuck.Gordon
08-31-2007, 08:29 AM
Kiai is not a sound, especially not a yell or grunt. It is a state, and as a philosphical concept, is more akin to "aiki" than "shout".

Kiai doesn't even have to be accompanied by sound at all, if done correctly, but if kiai is accomplished, quite often there IS sound.

The specific sounds used in classical budo, and referenced in some of Ueshiba's writings, such as Ei! or To! or Ho! are sort of mnemonics. They help the practitioner by providing an audible placeholder where the kiai ought to exist whilst performing a kata or technique.

And as someone above said, if you do it right, it oughtn't strain the larynx at all.

Ecosamurai
08-31-2007, 08:35 AM
It's definitely not tensing the stomach muscles.
Maybe "pressurizing" but never tensing.
If it were just "tensing" it, would it be a "secret"? :D

Koichi Tohei recounts in various interviews that the Tempukai taught him to tense the lower abdomen, he found that this didn't work and adjusted what he did and taught accordingly (though apparently tensing the abdomen is still taught in the Tempukai). So, as far as ki breathing goes, no it's nothing to do with tensing the abdomen. So I agree.

As I said before IMO if you want to make a breathing exercise (such as the ones used in the ki society and its offshoots) noisy/shouty then you're doing a kiai. But you can't do a real kiai without correct breathing IMHO.

Mike

Ecosamurai
08-31-2007, 08:38 AM
And as someone above said, if you do it right, it oughtn't strain the larynx at all.

Yup and Yup. But try doing nothing but kiai for 4 or 5 hours and you'll probably find you have a bit of a sore throat IME. Not so much from the shouting but from the dryness associated with constantly expelling air I think. It's also worth noting that that sort of practice leaves your abdomen aching more than your throat. Well it's meant to and that's certainly been my experience anyway.

Mike

PS - Hope your hip is ok

Mike Sigman
08-31-2007, 08:41 AM
Not especially, no :) It is what you said. You didn't qualify it and that's how I interpreted it. In any case I can't be bothered getting into it. Better things to do...Very simple. Look at your post where you say I indicated I did not know WHO Will Reed is. That is clearly not what I said. No qualification needed; you made an error. And now you're being typically gracious when you make an error and trying to blame someone else. If you have "better things to do", next time don't take the extra time to try and make a gratuitous swipe.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Chuck.Gordon
08-31-2007, 08:49 AM
PS - Hope your hip is ok

Hip's doing great. I'm 99/9% pain-free (only get a twinge when I do something stupid and the occasional muscle ache after exercise or a tough PT session), stronger and more mobile every day.

Actually taught class Wednesday, rather than just observing. Still hobbling around on one crutch, so I emphasized single-hand techniques.

Hip adventures are blogged here:
http://www.arxhereticus.blogspot.com/
(Go into the archive to about July 14 to start)

cg

Ecosamurai
08-31-2007, 09:03 AM
Very simple. Look at your post where you say I indicated I did not know WHO Will Reed is. That is clearly not what I said. No qualification needed; you made an error. And now you're being typically gracious when you make an error and trying to blame someone else. If you have "better things to do", next time don't take the extra time to try and make a gratuitous swipe.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Whatever. I'd suggest you go and be self-important somewhere else but I know you won't. Perhaps you should grow a sense of humour and learn to laugh at yourself and the persona you portray on the internet from time to time. Helps me to do that, anyway.

I can hear Jun coming with the keys to the troll-pit so I'd best give it up.

Mike

Ecosamurai
08-31-2007, 09:07 AM
Actually taught class Wednesday, rather than just observing. Still hobbling around on one crutch, so I emphasized single-hand techniques.

Frankly I'm disappointed. Would've thought you'd have been teaching painful crutch disarms and attacks :D

Best

Mike

cguzik
08-31-2007, 10:53 AM
Random thoughts on kiai... learned from various well respected teachers and continuing to find deeper ways in which these things are relavent:

Chuck Gordon is correct that kiai do not have to be audible.

Kiai and aiki are complementary. They go together to such an extent that they are inseparable.

Certain ways of manifesting kiai have different (a) physiological and (b) psychological effects on both (i) uke and (ii) tori. When these become audible, the ways the sounds are manifested also relates to these effects.

There is a correlation between body movement, technique, and appropriate kiai, and the foundation of that correlation is the breath.

Regarding the stomach muscles thing - I don't know anyone who breathes with their stomach. But, your diaphragm is down there near your stomach... and the way the diaphragm, abdominal muscles, pelvic floor, and intercostal muscles are all interconnected and related to breathing is very important.

crbateman
08-31-2007, 12:54 PM
We still do them.
Okay, mostly I just make "old man" sounds.http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gifhttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gifhttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gif

I call them "my father's noises"... I have an entire arsenal of them...

Mike Sigman
08-31-2007, 01:08 PM
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gifhttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gifhttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gif

I call them "my father's noises"... I have an entire arsenal of them...Luckily I've tended to grunt and groan and uff and hah since I was young, so "old" has nothing to do with it. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;)

Mike

eyrie
08-31-2007, 08:20 PM
But you can't do a real kiai without correct breathing IMHO. Forgive my ignorance, but what is a "real" kiai (as opposed to a pretend one?) and what is "correct" breathing? "Correct" in what way? How?

tedehara
08-31-2007, 11:01 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but what is a "real" kiai (as opposed to a pretend one?) and what is "correct" breathing? "Correct" in what way? How?A pretend kiai is a loud shout. A real kiai is so strong that it shocks. Also you can hear the silence after it is done.

There are many different breathing exercises. This (http://unofficial.ki-society.org/Breath.html) is one. Most breathing exercises promote abdominal breathing, which means the stomach moves at each breath. This uses a higher percentage of the lungs than breathing by just expanding the chest.

mjhacker
08-31-2007, 11:31 PM
Most of my kiai these days take the form of nearly inaudible grunts and other expulsions of air. Unless you're close, you probably won't hear me. I probably kiai more with my facial expressions than with my voice anyway.

I'm quite a bit more vocal as uke than as tori, but not by conscious choice.

Ecosamurai
09-01-2007, 05:25 AM
Forgive my ignorance, but what is a "real" kiai (as opposed to a pretend one?) and what is "correct" breathing? "Correct" in what way? How?

What Ted said.

Ryan Sanford
09-01-2007, 01:18 PM
Does anyone utilize kiai or breath training in their aikido practice, and if so has it helped you bring your training to a higher level?

My dojo takes often practices kiai, especially when delivering atemi or striking as uke. I'm proud to say that my Sensei (who studied Karate when he was younger) regularly deals with the problems mentioned in the article. If he sees that a student is striking ineffectively, or simply not using their hips/center to strike, he will correct them.

dps
09-02-2007, 04:31 PM
I found this while researching something else.

[url]http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/mudra.html[/url

"Mudra, like these fantastic powers, are found in many koryu as part of their esoteric nature."

That is why, too, I wince when I see karate students at a tournament who scream out a nonsensical "ki-yah!" or some sort of odd shout that they made up on their own. A kiai is different from a kakegoe. A kakegoe is a simple shout. A kiai is a shout, to be sure, but its older meaning is to "meet" (-ai) "each other's spiritual energy" (ki-). Each ryu, therefore, had special kiai that signified their own style's use of spiritual energy as expressed in a vocal explosion, or kiai. There were only specific sounds, such as "ei," "toh," "yah," or so on, that had certain martial meanings in esoteric mikkyo, which were used in koryu. Kiai, therefore, were like secret mantras to the koryu; special words of power that should not be used lightly. When you did a kiai, you were directly attacking your opponent's spirit with words of power that would literally shock them into defeat. The kiai "yah," for example, pronounced in a certain way, represented the force of a released arrow (in Japanese: ya). Your voice was supposed to penetrate the person's spirit like an arrow. The other kiai had other meanings and were used for specific movements."

David