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salim
08-27-2007, 03:14 PM
Hmmm on why it gets a bad rep for being effective, i think its mostly down to the demonstrations and what those people who think it is ineffective, would define as a fighting martial art. Because Aikido isn't a fighting martial art, how you would instantly think of fighting. Its not as visually impressive as a cool Wing Chun video or Kung Fu, hands on wrestling. So to the average person making these commenrs i would guess mostly teens looking on you tube or seeing Aikido once, because the demonstrations have willing uke it doesnt seem that effective. Even wikipedia picked up on this critisism which i found interesting. This is why i think it gets the rep, an art designed to blend with an attacker and not even get to a one on one fighting stage to most people, isn't going to look impressive, its tho who appreciate the push pull going with the force/enegery who see its potential and understand.

Not true. The original Aikido (Aikibudo) was for combat and self defense. Aikido changed after the religious conversion of Ueshiba. The early students have preserved the original combat Aikido.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo

ChrisMoses
08-27-2007, 03:23 PM
Not true. The original Aikido (Aikibudo) was for combat and self defense. Aikido changed after the religious conversion of Ueshiba. The early students have preserved the original combat Aikido.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo

Don't get me wrong, I love me some Yoseikan. But the modern Yoseikan stuff bears very little resemblance to what Aikido came from and is much more of a MMA than a preservation of Daito Ryu or early Aikido.

David Orange
08-27-2007, 04:47 PM
Not true. The original Aikido (Aikibudo) was for combat and self defense. Aikido changed after the religious conversion of Ueshiba. The early students have preserved the original combat Aikido.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo

Here's how it looked when it was a bit closer to the pre-war style:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sf39s46Qxcg&mode=related&search=

The first part is technical rationale, the second is the randori.

David

salim
08-27-2007, 05:58 PM
Don't get me wrong, I love me some Yoseikan. But the modern Yoseikan stuff bears very little resemblance to what Aikido came from and is much more of a MMA than a preservation of Daito Ryu or early Aikido.

I only referenced the Yoseikan clip to show the combative nature of Aikido. The original Aikido contain more sutemi-waza and atemi waza, which has been almost completely removed from the Aikikai organization. Yoseikan has retain a lot of the original methodologies from Aikibudo. Yes it has been modernized, but has retained the self defense methods.

salim
08-27-2007, 06:04 PM
Here's how it looked when it was a bit closer to the pre-war style:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sf39s46Qxcg&mode=related&search=

The first part is technical rationale, the second is the randori.

David

Aikibudo, (original Aikido) much closer to the Yoseikan Aikido. The preservation of atemi waza and sutemi-waza are heavily part of the methodology. The Aikikai organizations has almost completely removed these methods. The combative nature has been removed.

Aiki1
08-27-2007, 06:57 PM
Aikibudo, (original Aikido) much closer to the Yoseikan Aikido. The preservation of atemi waza and sutemi-waza are heavily part of the methodology. The Aikikai organizations has almost completely removed these methods. The combative nature has been removed.

Every thread I read that you post in comes out the same - Yoseikan is the real deal etc etc etc.... From what I have seen, modern Yoseikan Budo has Nothing to do with Aikido. It's cool, I really like it in fact, but I've been teaching Aikido for almost 25 years, have studied several other arts incl. BJJ, and it is not Aikido anymore, from the clips that I have seen of the demos and competitions. This is not a bad thing, but Aikido is indeed something else.

salim
08-27-2007, 07:18 PM
Every thread I read that you post in comes out the same - Yoseikan is the real deal etc etc etc.... From what I have seen, modern Yoseikan Budo has Nothing to do with Aikido. It's cool, I really like it in fact, but I've been teaching Aikido for almost 25 years, have studied several other arts incl. BJJ, and it is not Aikido anymore, from the clips that I have seen of the demos and competitions. This is not a bad thing, but Aikido is indeed something else.

You totally misconstrued my meaning. I never said that Yoseikan is the real deal. I mention the original Aikibudo (Aikido) and it's combat roots. The point here is about the methodology of combat, self defense tactics. I only used Yoseikan Aikido as an example. Please don't mix Aikikai methodology with the principles of Aikibudo, because it's not the same.

salim
08-27-2007, 07:30 PM
Every thread I read that you post in comes out the same - Yoseikan is the real deal etc etc etc.... From what I have seen, modern Yoseikan Budo has Nothing to do with Aikido. It's cool, I really like it in fact, but I've been teaching Aikido for almost 25 years, have studied several other arts incl. BJJ, and it is not Aikido anymore, from the clips that I have seen of the demos and competitions. This is not a bad thing, but Aikido is indeed something else.

Let's face it, Aikikai methodology is for love and peace, not for fighting. Aikibudo methodology is for fighting when you have to, that's the difference.

mathewjgano
08-27-2007, 07:34 PM
You totally misconstrued my meaning. I never said that Yoseikan is the real deal. I mention the original Aikibudo (Aikido) and it's combat roots. The point here is about the methodology of combat, self defense tactics. I only used Yoseikan Aikido as an example. Please don't mix Aikikai methodology with the principles of Aikibudo, because it's not the same.

I'm confused...
You said Yoseikan is an example which more closely resembles the combat-oriented roots of Aikido, implying it represents a more realistic approach to self-defense than Aikikai. I took the phrase "real deal" to meant "effective in self-defense" in which case the author was accurately describing your intent...unless of course I'm misunderstanding your (or his) meaning as well.
...are we on the same page? Or are we losing the conveyed meaning to differences in semantics?
Sincerely,
matt

salim
08-27-2007, 07:46 PM
I'm confused...
You said Yoseikan is an example which more closely resembles the combat-oriented roots of Aikido, implying it represents a more realistic approach to self-defense than Aikikai. I took the phrase "real deal" to meant "effective in self-defense" in which case the author was accurately describing your intent...unless of course I'm misunderstanding your (or his) meaning as well.
...are we on the same page? Or are we losing the conveyed meaning to differences in semantics?
Sincerely,
matt

Yes an example, but not the only example. It's not the all be all of Aikido. In my dojo we practice Aikibudo which is very similar to what sensei Alain Floquet teaches in France. We use the principles of Daito Ryu Jujutsu, Judo and atemi waza. The karate principles are not really taught as much, unlike Yoseikan.

mathewjgano
08-27-2007, 07:50 PM
Let's face it, Aikikai methodology is for love and peace, not for fighting. Aikibudo methodology is for fighting when you have to, that's the difference.

When i fight, it is for love and peace. I don't see how they are mutually exclusive concepts. Fighting when you have to (and we might disagree on what "fighting" entails, for all i know), implies to me the notion of doing it only for the sake of things like love and peace.
I've known fighters, and they either fight for the sake of ending the fight (peace) or they're making money off it or they're base-minded (eg-fighting because they're insecure and feel the need to prove something to someone...the latter of which represents most of my friends growing up).
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "fighting when you have to"?
Take care,
Matt

mathewjgano
08-27-2007, 08:25 PM
When i fight, it is for love and peace.

...more correctly, I try to "fight" only for peace; because of love. With this in mind it doesn't seem to make much sense to imply an organization which dedicates itself to peace and love can't also "fight" only when necessary. Anyhoo...
Take care.

("whats so funny about peace love and understanding?"-Elvis Costello and the Attractions)

salim
08-27-2007, 08:36 PM
...more correctly, I try to "fight" only for peace; because of love. With this in mind it doesn't seem to make much sense to imply an organization which dedicates itself to peace and love can't also "fight" only when necessary. Anyhoo...
Take care.

("whats so funny about peace love and understanding?"-Elvis Costello and the Attractions)

I mean fight if I have no other choice. Self defense kicks in, protect myself and my love ones. Use the skills from Aikibudo or any other art to defend myself.

David Orange
08-27-2007, 09:07 PM
Aikibudo, (original Aikido) much closer to the Yoseikan Aikido. The preservation of atemi waza and sutemi-waza are heavily part of the methodology. The Aikikai organizations has almost completely removed these methods. The combative nature has been removed.

Salim,

The original aiki of Morihei Ueshiba included no sutemi waza. All that is the development of Minoru Mochizuki, founder of yoseikan.

The sutemi waza, you are correct, were a vital part of old-style aikido.

Best to you.

David

ChrisMoses
08-27-2007, 09:31 PM
Salim,

The original aiki of Morihei Ueshiba included no sutemi waza. All that is the development of Minoru Mochizuki, founder of yoseikan.

The sutemi waza, you are correct, were a vital part of old-style aikido.

Best to you.

David

David, I'm assuming you meant "The atemi waza, you are correct, were a vital part of old-style aikido." Correct?

Modern (meaning the French stuff) Yoseikan, isn't my bag. Older, Mochizuki Sensei Senior Yoseikan, is pretty cool stuff. Chop sockey chambarra with takedowns is probably a lot of fun however.

salim
08-27-2007, 09:34 PM
Salim,

The original aiki of Morihei Ueshiba included no sutemi waza. All that is the development of Minoru Mochizuki, founder of yoseikan.

The sutemi waza, you are correct, were a vital part of old-style aikido.

Best to you.

David

Don't forget that Ueshiba study Judo under Kiyoichi Takagi from 1903 to 1908 when he was calling his marital art Aikibudo.

PeterR
08-28-2007, 12:52 AM
Don't forget that Ueshiba study Judo under Kiyoichi Takagi from 1903 to 1908 when he was calling his marital art Aikibudo.

Ueshiba was calling his art what in 1903 to 1908?

The Takagi period was what 1911?, and at that point he didn't even meet Takeda much less start naming his style.

I know why there so much confusion about Aikido.

darin
08-28-2007, 08:46 AM
Every thread I read that you post in comes out the same - Yoseikan is the real deal etc etc etc.... From what I have seen, modern Yoseikan Budo has Nothing to do with Aikido. It's cool, I really like it in fact, but I've been teaching Aikido for almost 25 years, have studied several other arts incl. BJJ, and it is not Aikido anymore, from the clips that I have seen of the demos and competitions. This is not a bad thing, but Aikido is indeed something else.

Sorry Salim, I have to agree with Larry here. From my conversations with Roy Hebden the technical head of Yoseikan World Federation in Australia, they have basically removed any move that is considered too difficult or dangerous to apply and also meet the rules for their sport. Its why there is almost no traditional aikido in their system. They are upfront whyt they don't do aikido anymore. I was told by Mitchi Mochizuki that there is no more Aikido, karate, iaido in yoseikan budo. There is only Yoseikan Budo. One martial art.

I believe that Minoru Mochizuki's goal was to create a better martial art not a better aikido.

salim
08-28-2007, 08:59 AM
Ueshiba was calling his art what in 1903 to 1908?

The Takagi period was what 1911?, and at that point he didn't even meet Takeda much less start naming his style.

I know why there so much confusion about Aikido.

Oops, type the wrong date, I meant 1911. Yes the art was called Aikibudo during this time. The problem here is a mentality issue that stems from the Aikikai organization. They have a zealous almost confrontational attitude about being the definitive representation of Aikido, which is not the case. Aikikai is not the only Aikido and definitely not the original Aikido. Let's be honest about the superiority complex. Let's be honest about Aikikai not being the original Aikido.

darin
08-28-2007, 09:04 AM
Let's face it, Aikikai methodology is for love and peace, not for fighting. Aikibudo methodology is for fighting when you have to, that's the difference.

lol, I have seen plenty of fruity aikido in Yoseikan... For the record I wouldn't recommend traditional Yoseikan aikido and some of the aiki you see done by the YWF by themselves if you want to learn self defence aikido. Without the judo and karate elements they are pretty hollow. I can't comment on Alain Flouquet's (sorry if I spelt it wrong) dojo as I have never been there but looks as if they do a harder style similar to what I learned.

I don't think that Minoru Mochizuki video demonstrated good aikido. The only interesting part was Washizu Sensei doing sutemi.

Again my opinion, I think you will find better self defense aikido in Yoshinakan and Tomiki aikido because they have specialized in it.

raul rodrigo
08-28-2007, 09:34 AM
Oops, type the wrong date, I meant 1911. Yes the art was called Aikibudo during this time. The problem here is a mentality issue that stems from the Aikikai organization. They have a zealous almost confrontational attitude about being the definitive representation of Aikido, which is not the case. Aikikai is not the only Aikido and definitely not the original Aikido. Let's be honest about the superiority complex. Let's be honest about Aikikai not being the original Aikido.

Ueshiba called his art aikibudo in 1911? Either thats a typo too, or you need to do a little more research.

R

PeterR
08-28-2007, 09:40 AM
Oops, type the wrong date, I meant 1911. Yes the art was called Aikibudo during this time.

By who. Mochizuki was learning Daito-ryu aikijujutsu from Ueshiba, it was only later that Ueshiba started changing the name. If I recall the names progressed via Ueshiba-ryu, Asahi-ryu, and finally aiki budo before the name change to aikido. We are talking late 1930s to early 1940s for the time Aikibudo was used.

I am sorry - but I think a lot of the confusion about aikido comes from inacurracies like this.

David Orange
08-28-2007, 09:42 AM
David, I'm assuming you meant "The atemi waza, you are correct, were a vital part of old-style aikido." Correct?

Yes. Atemi waza. Can't believe I did that.....

Thanks.

David

David Orange
08-28-2007, 09:45 AM
Don't forget that Ueshiba study Judo under Kiyoichi Takagi from 1903 to 1908 when he was calling his marital art Aikibudo.

I have never heard of O-Sensei using sutemi waza, but the sutemi waza of the yoseikan are all the direct inventions of Minoru Mochizuki. Some people say that he got them from gyokushin ryu jujutsu, but he never actually saw the gyokushin sutemi waza. He was uchi deshi to Kyuzo Minfune, who was an expert at sutemi and he used Mifune's example with hints from his experience in gyokushin to develop a sutemi version of pretty much every aikido technique he had learned.

If you have any examples of O-Sensei's using sutemi waza, it would be interesting to hear about that.

Best to you.

David

David Orange
08-28-2007, 09:49 AM
I believe that Minoru Mochizuki's goal was to create a better martial art not a better aikido.

I think it was both to do the best aikido he could do and the best all-around martial art he could do. And to him, the best martial art would naturally use aiki. While modern yoseikan is a single art (though I thought they had "divisions" for aikido, judo, karate, kenjutsu, etc.), Minoru Mochizuki maintained an "aikido" class until he left Japan at an old age (mid-90s, I think, around the year 2000).

Anyway...I see you're in Perth. Have you trained with Unno Sensei, Mochizuki Sensei's old student?

David

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 11:39 AM
I have never heard of O-Sensei using sutemi waza, but the sutemi waza of the yoseikan are all the direct inventions of Minoru Mochizuki. Some people say that he got them from gyokushin ryu jujutsu, but he never actually saw the gyokushin sutemi waza. He was uchi deshi to Kyuzo Minfune, who was an expert at sutemi and he used Mifune's example with hints from his experience in gyokushin to develop a sutemi version of pretty much every aikido technique he had learned.

If you have any examples of O-Sensei's using sutemi waza, it would be interesting to hear about that.

Best to you.

David

As I am sure your aware David, Han Sutemi (half sacrifice) is any technique going to a knee or sitting, so these would have been done by O'Sensei. More relevant is the hanmi hantachi with an attacker grabbing from behind. From here O'Sensei rolls back under his uke and puts one foot under his chin and the other behind his neck. He then throws him forward. This is in his book Budo, and in the 1936 film.

Regards,

Graham

deepsoup
08-28-2007, 12:06 PM
the sutemi waza of the yoseikan are all the direct inventions of Minoru Mochizuki. Some people say that he got them from gyokushin ryu jujutsu, but he never actually saw the gyokushin sutemi waza.

The sutemi in the various youtube clips popping up in this and other threads look quite judoish to me. Might there also be some people who suggest he might have learned a thing or two at the Kodokan? (Or is that just boringly obvious?) :)

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 12:13 PM
The sutemi in the various youtube clips popping up in this and other threads look quite judoish to me. Might there also be some people who suggest he might have learned a thing or two at the Kodokan? (Or is that just boringly obvious?) :)

There are most if not all judo sutemi waza in Yoseikan, Mochizuki Kancho was after all a Deshi of Mifune Sensei. Most of the sutemi unique to Yoseikan involve locks and chokes that you could not do in judo due to the rules.

salim
08-28-2007, 12:25 PM
By who. Mochizuki was learning Daito-ryu aikijujutsu from Ueshiba, it was only later that Ueshiba started changing the name. If I recall the names progressed via Ueshiba-ryu, Asahi-ryu, and finally aiki budo before the name change to aikido. We are talking late 1930s to early 1940s for the time Aikibudo was used.

I am sorry - but I think a lot of the confusion about aikido comes from inacurracies like this.

Here is an article that talks about the conversion of Aikibudo to Aikido around 1942. Aikibudo was used years before the new found Aikido. It's very clear. Wikipedia has references to Aikibudo being used prior to Aikido. Ueshiba was mixing his previous martial experience of Jujutsu and Judo prior to the creation of Aikido.

You are dead wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=87

Steven
08-28-2007, 12:47 PM
Not true. The original Aikido (Aikibudo) was for combat and self defense. Aikido changed after the religious conversion of Ueshiba. The early students have preserved the original combat Aikido.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo

Probably just me, but this video looked more like Combat Hapkido.

That ought to raise a fuss.... :eek:

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 12:55 PM
Okay, basically by definition, sacrifice techniques are techniques or desperation. O'Sensei would never have needed to use them. His superior awareness meant he could use "simple" techniques to overcome his attackers. We, however, until we develop that awareness, which is the goal of budo, have to rely on things that will work in a pinch, and sutemi waza work if you are overwhelmed by an attacker, and you want to deal with him quickly.

ChrisMoses
08-28-2007, 12:57 PM
Here is an article that talks about the conversion of Aikibudo to Aikido around 1942. Aikibudo was used years before the new found Aikido. It's very clear. Wikipedia has references to Aikibudo being used prior to Aikido. Ueshiba was mixing his previous martial experience of Jujutsu and Judo prior to the creation of Aikido.

You are dead wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=87

If you think that what was being referred to as "Aikibudo" in that article was much of anything like what was in the video you posted, you are delusional.

salim
08-28-2007, 01:12 PM
If you think that what was being referred to as "Aikibudo" in that article was much of anything like what was in the video you posted, you are delusional.

The issue is combat vs pacifism. The combat elements from the original Aikido have been removed.

Neither Takeda, nor Ueshiba, INTENDED for Ueshiba's art to have a new name. AIKIDO was imposed by the Dai Nippon Butokukai and accepted by Ueshiba's representative there, MINORU HIRAI Sensei. From then on, the former Aikibudo of Ueshiba changed its name to Aikido and included also the kyu/dan ranking sponsored by the Butokukai.

O-Sensei's religious beliefs also contributed in important ways to the art he developed. O-Sensei joined the religious group Omotokyo in 1919, and he borrowed heavily from its philosophy and world-view as spiritual underpinnings for his martial art. To emphasize this, the changed the name of the art from Aikibudo ("the warrior's path of harmony") to Aikido ("the path of harmony") in 1942.

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 01:18 PM
Neither Takeda, nor Ueshiba, INTENDED for Ueshiba's art to have a new name. AIKIDO was imposed by the Dai Nippon Butokukai and accepted by Ueshiba's representative there, MINORU HIRAI Sensei. From then on, the former Aikibudo of Ueshiba changed its name to Aikido and included also the kyu/dan ranking sponsored by the Butokukai.

Now that is a little far, I think O'Sensei initially prefered the use of the term Budo (since he used it), but he liked the term Aikido, which can be seen from his brushing of the word, and using it.

Don_Modesto
08-28-2007, 01:20 PM
Aikibudo, (original Aikido) much closer to the Yoseikan Aikido. The preservation of atemi waza and sutemi-waza are heavily part of the methodology. The Aikikai organizations has almost completely removed these methods. The combative nature has been removed.Ya know, I used to believe that, too, until Peter Goldsbury pointed out the obvious: If you watch the 2nd Doshu's vids or look at his books, ATEMI is everywhere. Where did we get this idea?!

Also, as is often pointed out, Aikikai is an umbrella, not a style. You've just dismissed a whole handful of people. I wonder if Osawa, Arikawa, Kuroiwa, Saotome, Chiba, Shibata, Isoyama et al. weren't all pretty fair scrappers in their time.

SUTEMI--Don't know about the mainstream, but Saotome teaches it on occasion.

Let's face it, Aikikai methodology is for love and peace, not for fighting. Aikibudo methodology is for fighting when you have to, that's the difference.Pretty broad boasting here.

salim
08-28-2007, 01:33 PM
Ya know, I used to believe that, too, until Peter Goldsbury pointed out the obvious: If you watch the 2nd Doshu's vids or look at his books, ATEMI is everywhere. Where did we get this idea?!

Also, as is often pointed out, Aikikai is an umbrella, not a style. You've just dismissed a whole handful of people. I wonder if Osawa, Arikawa, Kuroiwa, Saotome, Chiba, Shibata, Isoyama et al. weren't all pretty fair scrappers in their time.

SUTEMI--Don't know about the mainstream, but Saotome teaches it on occasion.

Pretty broad boasting here.

It's not my intention to boast, but to revive a history that is ignored.

Shioda Gozo Kancho learned aikido (referred to as "aikibudo" during his earlier years of training) during the pre-war era before WWII. However, Morihei's deep involvment in the esoteric Omoto-kyo of religion and his varied experience later seriously altered the art into something more philosophical minded (and less practical minded) - an approach the Yoshinkan branch did not subscribe to.

http://www.aiki-buken.com/history.html

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 01:35 PM
It's not my intention to boast, but to revive a history that is ignored.

Shioda Gozo Kancho learned aikido (referred to as "aikibudo" during his earlier years of training) during the pre-war era before WWII. However, Morihei's deep involvment in the esoteric Omoto-kyo of religion and his varied experience later seriously altered the art into something more philosophical minded (and less practical minded) - an approach the Yoshinkan branch did not subscribe to.

http://www.aiki-buken.com/history.html

No no no, O'Sensei started with the Omoto Kyo in the 1910's well before Mochizuki or Shioda. It was just as important to him then as it was at the end of his life. If any thing actually changed him, it was the war man!

Don_Modesto
08-28-2007, 01:37 PM
Morihei's deep involvment in the esoteric Omoto-kyo of religion and his varied experience later seriously altered the art into something more philosophical minded (and less practical minded) - an approach the Yoshinkan branch did not subscribe to.Haven't heard anyone complaining about Ueshiba's fighting ability. Indeed, one person who trained with him said that he became MORE effective after his association with Omoto (apologies for not having a source for that.)

salim
08-28-2007, 01:55 PM
No no no, O'Sensei started with the Omoto Kyo in the 1910's well before Mochizuki or Shioda. It was just as important to him then as it was at the end of his life. If any thing actually changed him, it was the war man!

I'm not debating when he entered Oomoto, but rather how it changed Aikido from a combat ready art to an art of PACIFISM. Aikibudo,Yoseikan and Yoshikhan did not adhere to this conversion. They kept to the roots of combat, although they have develop there own variations of. But the fundamentals can still be found.

Mochizuki and Shioda were direct students of Ueshiba and know Aikido better than we do. They passed some combat traditions from the roots of Aikibudo that are not respected by some. It's more of a mentality issue than anything.

Cheers

wildaikido
08-28-2007, 02:02 PM
I'm not debating when he entered Oomoto, but rather how it changed Aikido from a combat ready art to an art of PACIFISM. Aikibudo,Yoseikan and Yoshikhan did not adhere to this conversion. They kept to the roots of combat, although they have develop there own variations of. But the fundamentals can still be found.

Mochizuki and Shioda were direct students of Ueshiba and know Aikido better than we do. They passed some combat traditions from the roots of Aikibudo that are not respected by some. It's more of a mentality issue than anything.

Cheers

I can assure you that in the end Mochizuki agreed with all the things he learnt from O'Sensei, including the idea that winning is wrong, hence organised competition is wrong, and we train for peace, but to do this we must prepare for war.

Look at Saito Sensei's Aikido, it is Identical to what you see O'Sensei do in the 30's, both in his books, and in Demonstrations. Hence it is what Mochizuki and Shioda learnt from O'Sensei. Saito Sensei was doing this in front of O'Sensei on the mats in class in Iwama into the 60's, hence, O'Sensei's Aikido changed less than you think!

The main changes made to the teaching methods at the Aikikai were under Kisshomaru and Tohei.

Regards,

David Orange
08-28-2007, 03:57 PM
The sutemi in the various youtube clips popping up in this and other threads look quite judoish to me. Might there also be some people who suggest he might have learned a thing or two at the Kodokan? (Or is that just boringly obvious?) :)

You are talking about yoseikan sutemi waza, right?

As I said, Mochizuki Sensei was uchi deshi to Kyuzo Mifune, who was spectacular with sutemi waza and all the yoseikan sutemi are done very close to Mifune's style (or were in the old Shizuoka yoseikan). So, yes, the kodokan influence is very strong in Minoru Mochizuki's yoseikan.

David

David Orange
08-28-2007, 03:59 PM
As I am sure your aware David, Han Sutemi (half sacrifice) is any technique going to a knee or sitting, so these would have been done by O'Sensei. More relevant is the hanmi hantachi with an attacker grabbing from behind. From here O'Sensei rolls back under his uke and puts one foot under his chin and the other behind his neck. He then throws him forward. This is in his book Budo, and in the 1936 film.

Graham, it's true that dropping to a knee is technically han sutemi, but I I think the reference is more to the full-body drop from standing. And for that reason, I wouldn't really consider the rolling back into the neck throw as sutemi per se, but you do make some good points there.

Best to you.

David

David Orange
08-28-2007, 04:02 PM
There are most if not all judo sutemi waza in Yoseikan, Mochizuki Kancho was after all a Deshi of Mifune Sensei. Most of the sutemi unique to Yoseikan involve locks and chokes that you could not do in judo due to the rules.

The unique thing about Mochizuki Sensei's sutemi waza is that he pretty much included everything Mifune taught and used that to find sutemi variations of a wide range of aikido techniques, such as kote gaeshi, for instance, which, as you say, would not be legal in judo. He created some really unique and intersting forms that way.

David

darin
08-28-2007, 07:05 PM
I think it was both to do the best aikido he could do and the best all-around martial art he could do. And to him, the best martial art would naturally use aiki. While modern yoseikan is a single art (though I thought they had "divisions" for aikido, judo, karate, kenjutsu, etc.), Minoru Mochizuki maintained an "aikido" class until he left Japan at an old age (mid-90s, I think, around the year 2000).

Anyway...I see you're in Perth. Have you trained with Unno Sensei, Mochizuki Sensei's old student?

David

I am not that clued up on the YWF but I think they do have categories for their techniques such as aiki, kempo, jujitsu and kenjutsu etc in their syllabus.

Unno Sensei told me that the Yoseikan aikido (actual aikido techniques) used to be a lot more combat orientated but had become a lot softer to cater for more students. He also said because the current senior aikido students are also judoka there is a greater emphasis on judo techniques. In Unno Sensei's case his aikido was influenced by karate and Yoshinkan and Tomiki aikido.

My comments before weren't meant to criticize Yoseikan Aikido just stating from my experiences that Yoseikan relies on its judo and karate techniques in order to be effective (more efficient) where as other styles like Yoshinkan and Tomiki seem to have better aikido techniques as they have specialized in that area.

Yes I trained with Unno Sensei for about 14 years.

salim
08-28-2007, 07:54 PM
Nice clip of Aikibudo. This how we practice in our dojo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y

David Orange
08-28-2007, 07:56 PM
I am not that clued up on the YWF but I think they do have categories for their techniques such as aiki, kempo, jujitsu and kenjutsu etc in their syllabus.

I don't keep up with it much myself. But a friend, Edgar Kruyning, in the Netherlands, is coming out with a nice book called "The Art of JuJutsu: the legacy of Minoru Mochizuki's 'Yoseikan'". It's a nice overview of both the old system and Hiroo Sensei's modern YWF. Edgar got godan from both Minoru Sensei and Hiroo Sensei. The new book should be coming out soon.

Unno Sensei told me that the Yoseikan aikido (actual aikido techniques) used to be a lot more combat orientated but had become a lot softer to cater for more students.

You recognized Washizu from the video clip. Did you ever train with him?

My comments before weren't meant to criticize Yoseikan Aikido just stating from my experiences that Yoseikan relies on its judo and karate techniques in order to be effective (more efficient) where as other styles like Yoshinkan and Tomiki seem to have better aikido techniques as they have specialized in that area.

I always thought it was a nicely rounded art--also very concentrated on sword.

Yes I trained with Unno Sensei for about 14 years.

That's nice. I didn't know Unno Sensei very well, but I spent a memorable evening with him at Sano Sensei's birthday party and afterward about 1990 or 91, I guess. I think it was Sano's 60th. I've got pictures of it somewhere. Unno Sensei had his son with him. The boy was about 12, then, I think. I spent a good bit of time with Unno Sensei that evening as we went from place to place with the party. I trained with him a little and thought his aikido was nice and smooth. I'll always remember him.

Thanks and best to you.

David

David Orange
08-28-2007, 08:02 PM
Nice clip of Aikibudo. This how we practice in our dojo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y

That looks not unlike the old Shizuoka yoseikan. The big thing Mochizuki Sensei liked, though, was full sutemi randori--an hour or more of nothing but sutemi waza, night after night. After all the general technical practice, he would say, "Okay. Randori." and that meant sutemi randori, usually.

He always stressed that budo meant doing what was necessary, but never doing more than necessary to end the attack or "take the fight out of the attacker." He was a moral person, but not extremely religious like O-Sensei. Still, he revered O-Sensei as both a teacher and a deep friend.

Best to you.

David

PeterR
08-28-2007, 11:20 PM
Here is an article that talks about the conversion of Aikibudo to Aikido around 1942. Aikibudo was used years before the new found Aikido. It's very clear. Wikipedia has references to Aikibudo being used prior to Aikido. Ueshiba was mixing his previous martial experience of Jujutsu and Judo prior to the creation of Aikido.

You are dead wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=87

Why do I bother. You say he was using the term Aikibudo to refer to his art in 1911 - I say late 1930s to early 1940s. None of the articles mention dates other than when the final conversion from Aikibudo to Aikido occured. There has never been an indication that Ueshiba resisted the name change - it actually made sense in the context of ju- ken- and so forth.

jennifer paige smith
08-28-2007, 11:25 PM
That looks not unlike the old Shizuoka yoseikan. The big thing Mochizuki Sensei liked, though, was full sutemi randori--an hour or more of nothing but sutemi waza, night after night. After all the general technical practice, he would say, "Okay. Randori." and that meant sutemi randori, usually.

He always stressed that budo meant doing what was necessary, but never doing more than necessary to end the attack or "take the fight out of the attacker." He was a moral person, but not extremely religious like O-Sensei. Still, he revered O-Sensei as both a teacher and a deep friend.

Best to you.

David

I've heard "take the fight out of the fighter" described as "neutralizing the attack without 'neutralizing' the attacker". And I've also heard aikido described by one of my teachers, Anno Sensei, as an 'art of friendship'. While Anno Sensei formally represents neither one of the traditions mentioned in the thread name, the concepts seem to permeate.

jennifer paige smith
08-28-2007, 11:47 PM
Why do I bother. You say he was using the term Aikibudo to refer to his art in 1911 - I say late 1930s to early 1940s. None of the articles mention dates other than when the final conversion from Aikibudo to Aikido occured. There has never been an indication that Ueshiba resisted the name change - it actually made sense in the context of ju- ken- and so forth.

www.fightingmaster.com/masters/ueshiba/index.htm
here. check out this link. nice little bio and .......
asked when was aikido established, o'sensei answered
"the day I was born."

PeterR
08-29-2007, 12:03 AM
www.fightingmaster.com/masters/ueshiba/index.htm
here. check out this link. nice little bio and .......
asked when was aikido established, o'sensei answered
"the day I was born."

I think the name changes are only of historical interest and don't designate any fundamental shifts in Ueshiba's approach to his art.

That there was a gradual change there is no doubt, a change which reflected Ueshiba M. himself not just the influence of his son who I think often gets a bum rap.

I personally prefer the aikido of his earlier students but that's just me however, even my teacher was sent by Tomiki to live with one of Ueshiba's later students for six years to learn excellent technique. I think the aikibudo/aikido distinction being made is a false construct.

jennifer paige smith
08-29-2007, 12:51 AM
I think the name changes are only of historical interest and don't designate any fundamental shifts in Ueshiba's approach to his art.

That there was a gradual change there is no doubt, a change which reflected Ueshiba M. himself not just the influence of his son who I think often gets a bum rap.

I personally prefer the aikido of his earlier students but that's just me however, even my teacher was sent by Tomiki to live with one of Ueshiba's later students for six years to learn excellent technique. I think the aikibudo/aikido distinction being made is a false construct.

I believe it is a 'human construct' that only discusses a certain level of experience. The thing that isn't highlighted as much in discussions as history are the realizations of nature that O'Sensei experienced and was profoundly transformed through. These are not historical experiences, but personal and phenomenal experiences. They are moments of re-defining all that went before and putting them in to practice. As in the quote,when was aikido developed.....'when I was born'. You could still do all the same moves, but with a new realization they can become fastened to another level of knowing. And through practice this exchange of form and insight become a continuous cycle. That is how I know I'm doing aikido and not just waza. That is the remarkable element of aikido, for me. Same moves, different understanding.

As for Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei, peoples poor attitudes towards him remind me of the bumpersticker "If you haven't thanked a farmer, don't talk with your mouth full."

wildaikido
08-29-2007, 12:59 AM
I think the name changes are only of historical interest and don't designate any fundamental shifts in Ueshiba's approach to his art.

I personally prefer the aikido of his earlier students but that's just me however, even my teacher was sent by Tomiki to live with one of Ueshiba's later students for six years to learn excellent technique. I think the aikibudo/aikido distinction being made is a false construct.

I completely agree with this.

That there was a gradual change there is no doubt, a change which reflected Ueshiba M. himself not just the influence of his son who I think often gets a bum rap.

I look at the techniques of Saito Sensei, and compare them to Kisshomaru and Tohei, and I see a lot of difference. The fact is that Saito Sensei tought from O’Sensei 1936 book Budo, hence there was less change then some think. Personal this evidence is quite clear.

Regards,

wildaikido
08-29-2007, 01:10 AM
I believe it is a 'human construct' that only discusses a certain level of experience. The thing that isn't highlighted as much in discussions as history are the realizations of nature that O'Sensei experienced and was profoundly transformed through. These are not historical experiences, but personal and phenomenal experiences. They are moments of re-defining all that went before and putting them in to practice. As in the quote,when was aikido developed.....'when I was born'. You could still do all the same moves, but with a new realization they can become fastened to another level of knowing. And through practice this exchange of form and insight become a continuous cycle. That is how I know I'm doing aikido and not just waza. That is the remarkable element of aikido, for me. Same moves, different understanding.

This is exactly why in Yoseikan we can learn Karate and Judo techniques, but we are still doing Aikido.

Regards,

darin
08-29-2007, 01:26 AM
Hi David,

Back in June 1996 my brother and I spent one day at the Yoseikan Hombu in Shizuoka. We had one private class with Mochizuki Kancho and later on joined in with the evening class with Washizu sensei and Tezuka sensei. Kancho and his wife watched that class too.

Yes I did get to train with Washizu sensei. and I think Tezuka sensei. I thought they were both good especially with sutemi. .I found everyone to be very polite and friendly. Mochizuki Kancho was very approachable and I felt so privileged to have him teach us personally. He came onto the mats a few times to show explain a few kimewaza. He asked me if I could stay and train for a year, then tried to bargain it down to a month then a week. We were there only for one day and I promised to come back. I did return to Japan a few times but unfortunately never made it back to the Yoseikan Hombu.

I saw Yoshi's video of his trip to Japan in 1990 with his son Scott many years ago. He was a lot happier back then...

Thanks for sharing your memories of Yoshi wiht me.

Best Regards,

Darin

darin
08-29-2007, 01:29 AM
Just want to say thanks to Graeme Wild for doing up the Yoseikan Aikido section on Aikiweb.

jennifer paige smith
08-29-2007, 01:30 AM
This is exactly why in Yoseikan we can learn Karate and Judo techniques, but we are still doing Aikido.

Regards,

Yes. With observation and participation of natural law and principles (choose the language that resonates with you) the arena broadens in many directions to become more inclusive ( or universal).

I believe it helps to read O'Senseis words to maintain a connection to his natural experiences and subsequent wisdom. This gives a mental framework as well as a physical framework for aikido practice.

darin
08-29-2007, 01:32 AM
oops! Sorry not aikiweb. I meant to say Wikipedia

grondahl
08-29-2007, 01:42 AM
Regular "kata" based aikido? Really, I don´t se anything special in this clip except the sutemi.

Nice clip of Aikibudo. This how we practice in our dojo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y

wildaikido
08-29-2007, 02:08 AM
oops! Sorry not aikiweb. I meant to say Wikipedia

I was just about to post and say "What The" Yoseikan Aikido Section on Aikiweb... But on wiki, yes. You have contributed as well. I just got addicted to Wiki for a while and went crazy.

If you have some images you don't mind releasing into the public domain, the Yoseikan page is lacking an image of the actual dojo. I did ask Branco, as I know he has an image of the outside, but he never got back to me. In general, more images of Mochizuki Kancho wouldn't hurt.

Regards,

salim
08-29-2007, 08:01 AM
Why do I bother. You say he was using the term Aikibudo to refer to his art in 1911 - I say late 1930s to early 1940s. None of the articles mention dates other than when the final conversion from Aikibudo to Aikido occured. There has never been an indication that Ueshiba resisted the name change - it actually made sense in the context of ju- ken- and so forth.

We can can go back and forth on this forever. The evidence is out there, I just can' remember where I read the information. Here is one article that talks about the influence. The original intention was not to change the name.

Really for me is not so much of the name change, but rather the mentality of PACIFISM in some Aikido methodologies. The roots of Aikibudo where about combat and self defense when you have to use it. The combative nature has been removed from some Aikido methodologies, Aikikai. The mentality that Aikido should not have combat elements is totally incorrect, when it's original intention was for combat.

O-Sensei's religious beliefs also contributed in important ways to the art he developed. O-Sensei joined the religious group Omotokyo in 1919, and he borrowed heavily from its philosophy and world-view as spiritual underpinnings for his martial art. To emphasize this, the changed the name of the art from Aikibudo ("the warrior's path of harmony") to Aikido ("the path of harmony") in 1942.

darin
08-29-2007, 09:47 AM
I was just about to post and say "What The" Yoseikan Aikido Section on Aikiweb... But on wiki, yes. You have contributed as well. I just got addicted to Wiki for a while and went crazy.

If you have some images you don't mind releasing into the public domain, the Yoseikan page is lacking an image of the actual dojo. I did ask Branco, as I know he has an image of the outside, but he never got back to me. In general, more images of Mochizuki Kancho wouldn't hurt.

Regards,

Its good that you did the entry on Yoseikan Aikido. I did the one on Unno Sensei but I don't have any decent pictures of him. I only have recent pics of him and his home dojo where I think you and I first met. I didn't take any pictures when I visited the hombu in 1996. Does Hans have any good pics of Yosh in a gi when he was teaching at the Jan de Jong dojo? If so and he agrees are you able to upload one onto Wikipedia.

I believe Branko and Unno Sensei's family took all the videos, books and pictures from his house after he died. Its unfortunate I didn't get a chance to make copies as there were some really cool footage of Mochizuki, Yosh and Sano from the 70s and 80s.

You may have better luck with Roy Hebden, Brett Nener or Ross Taylor.

ChrisMoses
08-29-2007, 09:57 AM
The fact is that Saito Sensei tought from O’Sensei 1936 book Budo, hence there was less change then some think. Personal this evidence is quite clear.

Regards,

I think this is a bit of a misstatement. If I remember correctly, Saito Sensei was either unaware or had forgotten about the Noma dojo photos/Budo book until it was brought to his attention by Stan Pranin. Stan had found the book, and thought that it bore a striking resemblance to how Saito Sensei taught on a daily basis. After bringing it to his attention, Saito Sensei would apparently pull out the book as evidence that he was not doing Iwama-Aikido/Saito Sensei's aikido, but rather was preserving what he had been taught by OSensei.

MM
08-29-2007, 10:00 AM
I think this is a bit of a misstatement. If I remember correctly, Saito Sensei was either unaware or had forgotten about the Noma dojo photos/Budo book until it was brought to his attention by Stan Pranin. Stan had found the book, and thought that it bore a striking resemblance to how Saito Sensei taught on a daily basis. After bringing it to his attention, Saito Sensei would apparently pull out the book as evidence that he was not doing Iwama-Aikido/Saito Sensei's aikido, but rather was preserving what he had been taught by OSensei.

This is my understanding, too, Chris.

David Orange
08-29-2007, 10:11 AM
I've heard "take the fight out of the fighter" described as "neutralizing the attack without 'neutralizing' the attacker". And I've also heard aikido described by one of my teachers, Anno Sensei, as an 'art of friendship'. While Anno Sensei formally represents neither one of the traditions mentioned in the thread name, the concepts seem to permeate.

Jen,

It seems the heart of the matter is not to brutalize or injure the attacker when it's not necessary. Once he's out of the fight, you don't gratuitously hurt him--assuming we are able to put him out of the fight to begin with. That was where Mochizuki Sensei concentrated and it was why he had to stress not to do more than necessary.

Anyway, thanks.

David

salim
08-29-2007, 10:15 AM
We can can go back and forth on this forever. The evidence is out there, I just can' remember where I read the information. Here is one article that talks about the influence. The original intention was not to change the name.

Really for me is not so much of the name change, but rather the mentality of PACIFISM in some Aikido methodologies. The roots of Aikibudo where about combat and self defense when you have to use it. The combative nature has been removed from some Aikido methodologies, Aikikai. The mentality that Aikido should not have combat elements is totally incorrect, when it's original intention was for combat.

O-Sensei's religious beliefs also contributed in important ways to the art he developed. O-Sensei joined the religious group Omotokyo in 1919, and he borrowed heavily from its philosophy and world-view as spiritual underpinnings for his martial art. To emphasize this, the changed the name of the art from Aikibudo ("the warrior's path of harmony") to Aikido ("the path of harmony") in 1942.

Here is the link to the article.

http://www.aiki-buken.com/history.html

David Orange
08-29-2007, 10:16 AM
[QUOTE=Graham Wild;188001]This is exactly why in Yoseikan we can learn Karate and Judo techniques, but we are still doing Aikido.[QUOTE]

Peen-pon! (as the Japanese like to say)

Exactly!

David

David Orange
08-29-2007, 10:33 AM
Back in June 1996 my brother and I spent one day at the Yoseikan Hombu in Shizuoka.

You went to a real samurai's place, then.

We had one private class with Mochizuki Kancho and later on joined in with the evening class with Washizu sensei and Tezuka sensei. Kancho and his wife watched that class too.

It's amazing how much aikido that little old lady could watch. She spent hours in the dojo watching everyone train. I wish there were some way I could repay her for all her kindness and labor on our behalf.

Yes I did get to train with Washizu sensei. and I think Tezuka sensei. I thought they were both good especially with sutemi.

Tezuka was senior, but Washizu seemed more skilled in some ways. Still, after you knew them awhile, it was clear that Tezuka was senior for a reason. He was very pure. I liked Washizu more as a person and as a model, but Tezuka was a great individual as well. I think I must say he carried more weight, so maybe that made him a little more distant, but he was very helpful to me and he really served Mochizuki Sensei with loyal attention.

I found everyone to be very polite and friendly.

You probably also met Kenmotsu Sensei, who was slightly junior to Tezuka and Washizu. He was maybe the friendliest. He was a farmer and I think he really personified the "yo" of yoseikan --as in "cultivate." He really tried to "bring out" the best in the people who studied with him. Those three guys were constantly at the dojo, helping Mochizuki Sensei and sacrificing in many ways beyond the technical practice for yoseikan's sake. They all got the menkyo from Sensei, too.

Mochizuki Kancho was very approachable and I felt so privileged to have him teach us personally. He came onto the mats a few times to show explain a few kimewaza.

He could be sitting on the couch near the door and could see the details of what you were doing all the way down by the kamiza! He would come all the way over there and correct the way you were holding your fingers! One day, I was walking toward my apartment near the dojo and I passed the dojo on the other side of the street. Sensei happened to be standing in the door and he saw me across the street and met my eye and nodded. He had incredible eyesight when he was in his mid eighties.

He asked me if I could stay and train for a year, then tried to bargain it down to a month then a week. We were there only for one day and I promised to come back. I did return to Japan a few times but unfortunately never made it back to the Yoseikan Hombu.

Sensei was terribly eager to teach anyone who wanted to learn, but he especially liked to work with people who had experience and desire to learn more. He would really put himself out to help anyone. It's too bad you couldn't get back there. I wasn't able to get there after 1995 but I did go by one day in 2003 and saw that the name had been changed to Seifukai. It's a long story, but Tezuka, Washizu and many of the other old-time Shizuoka deshi started that group after some disagreements with YWF organizational policies. I understand that Sato, a prison guard, bought the old dojo and teaches there now. He was great, himself, and I think he got godan in yoseikan aikido from Mochizuki Sensei.

I saw Yoshi's video of his trip to Japan in 1990 with his son Scott many years ago. He was a lot happier back then...

Scott's probably thirty by now. He was a kid back then. We were at some place for the party and Scott asked me, "Where's the loo?"

I said, "What?"

I think he said, "The dunny. Where's the loo?"

I didn't know what he meant! We finally figured that out, though. He was a nice guy, too.

Thanks for sharing your memories of Yoshi wiht me.

I'm sure Unno Sensei doesn't remember me, but I remember him.

David

Basia Halliop
08-29-2007, 10:50 AM
Quote: Regular "kata" based aikido? Really, I don´t se anything special in this clip except the sutemi.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Nice clip of Aikibudo. This how we practice in our dojo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y

---------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see anything different in this either (other than maybe the sutemi, although come to think of it I've been taught that a few times, just rarely)?? What are we supposed to be looking at? -- it doesn't look any different than the AIkido I'm used to.

wildaikido
08-29-2007, 10:57 AM
I think this is a bit of a misstatement. If I remember correctly, Saito Sensei was either unaware or had forgotten about the Noma dojo photos/Budo book until it was brought to his attention by Stan Pranin. Stan had found the book, and thought that it bore a striking resemblance to how Saito Sensei taught on a daily basis. After bringing it to his attention, Saito Sensei would apparently pull out the book as evidence that he was not doing Iwama-Aikido/Saito Sensei's aikido, but rather was preserving what he had been taught by OSensei.
This is my understanding, too, Chris.

I have seen footage of him at seminars teaching from the book (LA I think). He re-released the book with his comments, and a video to match (I have both). And you just back up my point with the historical facts, which I was aware of. That is Mr Pranin though Saito Sensei's teachings in the 80's (I think) look like this book from the 30's! So thanks.

Regards,

wildaikido
08-29-2007, 11:11 AM
Its good that you did the entry on Yoseikan Aikido. I did the one on Unno Sensei but I don't have any decent pictures of him. I only have recent pics of him and his home dojo where I think you and I first met. I didn't take any pictures when I visited the hombu in 1996. Does Hans have any good pics of Yosh in a gi when he was teaching at the Jan de Jong dojo? If so and he agrees are you able to upload one onto Wikipedia.

I will ask Sensei when he returns from his European tour in a few weeks. If he does, I will definitely upload one.

I have tried to start taking more photos, as I regret not having some (as I am sure you do having gone to the Yoseikan and not taken a 1000 :) ). I trained with Shihan Jan de Jong many times in Aikido, my first lesson was with him and Hans, I did my 6th and 4th kyu gradings with him, and I am sad to say, I have no photos of him, or me with him :(

I believe Branko and Unno Sensei's family took all the videos, books and pictures from his house after he died. Its unfortunate I didn't get a chance to make copies as there were some really cool footage of Mochizuki, Yosh and Sano from the 70s and 80s.

I remember when I went to see Unno Sensei he showed me lots of books. It is a shame that they may not be used productively.

You may have better luck with Roy Hebden, Brett Nener or Ross Taylor.

These are options, although it would be easier for you to check with Roy. I have wanted to go back and train with Ross, but for the 5 months I was with him, I did not one "Yoseikan" techniques (judo karate sutemi), he said he had been reading lots of Aikikai books, so it just wasn't my thing. I have never met Brett, even though I was at the UWA club for a couple of months.

ChrisMoses
08-29-2007, 11:26 AM
I have seen footage of him at seminars teaching from the book (LA I think). He re-released the book with his comments, and a video to match (I have both). And you just back up my point with the historical facts, which I was aware of. That is Mr Pranin though Saito Sensei's teachings in the 80's (I think) look like this book from the 30's! So thanks.

Regards,

I took your initial comments to mean that the reason that Saito Sensei's aikido looks so much like Noma dojo photos was that he "taught from a book," meaning that over the years he referenced these photos to confirm that he wasn't making significant changes to what he was teaching. I do not think that is correct. I think that scenario is a lot different than finding a book/series of photos after decades of teaching and noting the striking similarity to what he had been doing all along (my point). The fact that he re-released the book with his own comments, or pulls it out at seminars does not take away the distinction.

wildaikido
08-29-2007, 11:55 AM
I took your initial comments to mean that the reason that Saito Sensei's aikido looks so much like Noma dojo photos was that he "taught from a book," meaning that over the years he referenced these photos to confirm that he wasn't making significant changes to what he was teaching. I do not think that is correct. I think that scenario is a lot different than finding a book/series of photos after decades of teaching and noting the striking similarity to what he had been doing all along (my point). The fact that he re-released the book with his own comments, or pulls it out at seminars does not take away the distinction.

I just re read my initial post on the topic, it is not specific, but it never has to be for an interpretation. I meant to include the fact that since he started training in the 40's (?) so Saito Sensei never saw these photos or the book, hence the fact that his Aikido looks like them means Aikido really did not change from the 30's through to the 60's when O'Sensei passed. This is supported by his reference to the book in seminars.

I believe most of the changes were made formally after '72 when Aikido was systemised. Not by Saito, or Shioda, or Tomiki, or Mochizuki Kancho, but by those in charge of the Aikikai.

Regards,

Ron Tisdale
08-29-2007, 12:00 PM
Oh?

A) That is a demo, not keiko

B) Video cameras are everywhere...take a video, post it on youtube, and let us compare.

Best,
Ron
Nice clip of Aikibudo. This how we practice in our dojo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y

PeterR
08-29-2007, 12:03 PM
I believe most of the changes were made formally after '72 when Aikido was systemised. Not by Saito, or Shioda, or Tomiki, or Mochizuki Kancho, but by those in charge of the Aikikai.[

A minor nuance but each of these men did systemize aikido - in a different way to be sure - but it was still aikido.

wildaikido
08-29-2007, 12:06 PM
A minor nuance but each of these men did systemize aikido - in a different way to be sure - but it was still aikido.

True. My point is I see more similarities between the techniques of these men then I do to Kisshomaru's of Tohei's. Hence less changes were made by them. Just my opinion.

Regards,

ChrisMoses
08-29-2007, 12:35 PM
I just re read my initial post on the topic, it is not specific, but it never has to be for an interpretation. I meant to include the fact that since he started training in the 40's (?) so Saito Sensei never saw these photos or the book, hence the fact that his Aikido looks like them means Aikido really did not change from the 30's through to the 60's when O'Sensei passed. This is supported by his reference to the book in seminars.

I believe most of the changes were made formally after '72 when Aikido was systemised. Not by Saito, or Shioda, or Tomiki, or Mochizuki Kancho, but by those in charge of the Aikikai.

Regards,

Agreed, thanks for the clarifications.

wildaikido
08-29-2007, 12:41 PM
Agreed, thanks for the clarifications.

YES! I finaly said something someone agrees with :D

Regards,

salim
08-29-2007, 02:08 PM
Quote: Regular "kata" based aikido? Really, I don´t se anything special in this clip except the sutemi.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Nice clip of Aikibudo. This how we practice in our dojo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y

---------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see anything different in this either (other than maybe the sutemi, although come to think of it I've been taught that a few times, just rarely)?? What are we supposed to be looking at? -- it doesn't look any different than the AIkido I'm used to.

Not only does the video show the sutemi waza, but it also shows the atemi waza. Notice the atemi waza after the person is on the ground. They apply a strike. The aggressiveness is much greater, there is even one instance of a choking kind of grab. The PACIFISM does not exist. Aikikai would never advocate using a striking move when the opponent is on the ground, there are a lot of differences.

grondahl
08-29-2007, 03:46 PM
So "combat driven" and "warrior spirit" actually means striking a compliant uke at the end of waza ;)

Using a strike of some kind as a formal end of a waza ex in shihonage is not even uncommon in the Aikikai. I think you need to get out more.

(And search for Ellis Amdurs article about K. Ueshibas answer to the question about M.Ueshibas pacifism.)

jennifer paige smith
08-29-2007, 06:31 PM
YES! I finaly said something someone agrees with :D

Regards,

No. I completely disagree;)
LOL, good humor couldn't resist. back to original programming.

wildaikido
08-30-2007, 12:21 PM
No. I completely disagree;)
LOL, good humor couldn't resist. back to original programming.

:confused:

darin
09-01-2007, 06:19 AM
David,

It was raining heavily that night so only two or three instructors turned up. Lots of kids though and quite a few foreign students. I only remember talking to Washizu sensei. About a year ago we had a brown belt student from the hombu come to Perth. He trained at our dojo and we took him out for beers. Maybe I will get to meet him again one day...

I wonder if Unno Sensei also got menkyo. Last I remember his highest grades were 6th dan in aikido, karate and jujitsu which he said were signed (stamped) by the emperor. He would always talk highly of Murai-Sensei, Sano-Sensei and of course Kancho.

I heard about the YWF and Seifukai split. Some of the instructors from the Seifukai recently visited Perth through Ross Taylor's group who I think is the official representative/technical director for the Seifukai in Australia.

I think Scott would be close to 30 now. He's a father.

Don't think Yosh remembered much around the time of his death but I am sure he valued the time he spent with you.

Darin

darin
09-01-2007, 07:27 AM
Graham,

I have seen Jan de Jong only once or twice in the old Hay Street shop more than 12 years ago. I did get to meet and train with Hans through a guy called Dean who used to train with me. Yosh and Jan de Jong had history between them but he always respected him for being a great teacher and an excellent martial artist. He seemed to be good friends with Hans though. Yoshi's top aikido student David King 4th dan was also a student of Jan de Jong. He had great sutemi. Nice teacher too.

I haven't spoken to Roy for over a year. I think the YWF are pretty strict on uploading Yoseikan content and the use of the Mochizuki name. As far as I know, they don't recognize the term Yoseikan aikido anymore. But if you want to go that direction for any Yoseikan content its probably best to talk to Phil Farmer. He often contributes on this site.

How long ago were you with Ross? He left Yoshi's dojo in the early to mid 90s after getting his 2nd dan, went to Japan and became affiliated with the Seifukai. I know for a time he was learning from Brett and Steve Nener, John Langley and Katie Noad so that could explain his interest in aikikai aikido.

Ross was my first instructor and he taught and did hard aikido back then. He may have toned it down as his school grew so as to make training safer and to meet the technical requirements for the Seifukai. I haven't trained with him for a long time so I don't know what he is doing now. I spoke to him at Yoshi's funeral last year and he said he has a new dojo and recently had senior instructors from the Seifukai come to Perth.

Darin

wildaikido
09-01-2007, 10:43 AM
I have seen Jan de Jong only once or twice in the old Hay Street shop more than 12 years ago. I did get to meet and train with Hans through a guy called Dean who used to train with me. Yosh and Jan de Jong had history between them but he always respected him for being a great teacher and an excellent martial artist. He seemed to be good friends with Hans though. Yoshi's top aikido student David King 4th dan was also a student of Jan de Jong. He had great sutemi. Nice teacher too.

This information was readily passed around the Perth dojo. Since Jan was "on par" with Yoshi, he had a different sort of relationship. But since Yoshi was Sensei Hans Aikido, Karate and Kobudo teacher, he had a more respectful relationship with him. I remember when I told Sensei that Yoshi was ill at training, that night he drove to Yoshi’s house to see him.

Dean is still with Hans, he got his shodan last year (I think), after about 19 years or so of training. I have never heard of David King, I thought you had been graded to the highest level under Yoshi.

I haven't spoken to Roy for over a year. I think the YWF are pretty strict on uploading Yoseikan content and the use of the Mochizuki name. As far as I know, they don't recognize the term Yoseikan aikido anymore. But if you want to go that direction for any Yoseikan content its probably best to talk to Phil Farmer. He often contributes on this site.

I though you were affiliated with Roy, and trained with him? Yeah I know the people in YWF would not be very helpful with getting an image of the old Hombu, since there direction had completely changed. I initially got in touch with Phil so I could arrange to go to the US and train with the USYBF. But unfortunately information that was supposed to come never got set, so I approached others.

How long ago were you with Ross? He left Yoshi's dojo in the early to mid 90s after getting his 2nd dan, went to Japan and became affiliated with the Seifukai. I know for a time he was learning from Brett and Steve Nener, John Langley and Katie Noad so that could explain his interest in aikikai aikido.

Ross was my first instructor and he taught and did hard aikido back then. He may have toned it down as his school grew so as to make training safer and to meet the technical requirements for the Seifukai. I haven't trained with him for a long time so I don't know what he is doing now. I spoke to him at Yoshi's funeral last year and he said he has a new dojo and recently had senior instructors from the Seifukai come to Perth.

I was with Ross for 5 months in the beginning of 2003. I don't mean to be negative, but basically he wanted us to over commit our attacks so the techniques would flow better. I did not agree with this. If it had been hard, I would have loved it. I was wondering if things had changed with his repeated visits to the Seifukai. I just haven't gotten around to going and checking out his new dojo.

Regards,

darin
09-01-2007, 12:51 PM
Yosh did tell me his side of the story. I think it was over money but I can't remember the details.

David King got his 4th dan about 25 years before I did so I consider him my senior even though we are the same grade. He is now a karate instructor in Branko's organization.

I trained with Roy for a month or so. His dojo is just too far away to go train for an hour. Good instructor though but he's not a fan of aikido. That didn't really bother me as I got to work on karate/kick boxing. Too bad you didn't get a chance to train in Texas.

Yoseikan/Seifukai aikido is pretty soft compared to what Yosh taught. Its just not flowing like in aikikai. Yoshi changed the techniques by replacing or modifying them with jujitsu, karate, Yoshinkan and Tomiki versons.

I am not surprised at what you experienced in Ross's dojo. When I trained in the hombu it was pretty soft too. Actually I have seen of Patrick Auge's dojo also show soft aikido. I think these schools have lots of kids and old people so they train more gentle. There is also the legal factor too.

wildaikido
09-01-2007, 02:26 PM
Yosh did tell me his side of the story. I think it was over money but I can't remember the details.

I never bothered with it, because when you hear a story you are only hearing one side. But Sensei Hans respected him, so I can do nothing but respect him. Although some of the others in Perth had other thoughts. I would have liked to have trained with Yoshi more, but back them (2000) I was just after Aikido training, and Yoshi said that it wasn't Aikido it was Budo, which I notice when training. Now I train like that so it is a shame.

David King got his 4th dan about 25 years before I did so I consider him my senior even though we are the same grade. He is now a karate instructor in Branko's organization.

Interesting, that means he must have gotten to forth dan in less then 10 years. He must have been dam good!

I trained with Roy for a month or so. His dojo is just too far away to go train for an hour. Good instructor though but he's not a fan of aikido. That didn't really bother me as I got to work on karate/kick boxing. Too bad you didn't get a chance to train in Texas.

When I can, I now go and train in LA, at least once a year. I make sure I arrange to go to conferences in the US so I can stop by.

Yoseikan/Seifukai aikido is pretty soft compared to what Yosh taught. Its just not flowing like in aikikai. Yoshi changed the techniques by replacing or modifying them with jujitsu, karate, Yoshinkan and Tomiki versons.

This is what I though when I went to see him. In hind sight, I wish I had trained with him for a few years.

I am not surprised at what you experienced in Ross's dojo. When I trained in the hombu it was pretty soft too. Actually I have seen of Patrick Auge's dojo also show soft aikido. I think these schools have lots of kids and old people so they train more gentle. There is also the legal factor too.

Training in LA is anything but soft. The advance classes are unlike anything I have seen anywhere. But the thing that got me was how good the Aikido was, but how the Judo and Karate was weaved through it seamlessly. It was perfect Aikido. I was blown away. I have basically trained at every Aikido club in Perth (except the Kokikai and the one in Rolystone) and no one has ever taught me as much about Aikido as I have learnt training in LA.

Regards,

darin
09-01-2007, 09:35 PM
I think whatever happened between them is water under the bridge. It was good that they continued to be professional about sharing students. Yosh was rather controversial. He had history with a lot of people here...

I heard David King was already an instructor for Jan de Jong so his prior experience was taken into consideration. He was pretty good but probably training several times a week back then. Now I'd be lucky to find someone who can train once a week consistently.

Although we did do some karate and judo techniques Yosh concentrated mostly on aikido. At shodan and above you do more sutemi and weapon defense. The training itself wasn't that hard (ie. taxing, extreme cardio workkout etc) just the techniques very brutal and we often trained on very thin old mats or no mats at all. He did know his aikido though better than anyone else in Perth at that time.

I have only heard good things about Auge's aikido. The video I saw was of kata type training taken in gradings.

wildaikido
09-02-2007, 01:11 AM
I heard David King was already an instructor for Jan de Jong so his prior experience was taken into consideration. He was pretty good but probably training several times a week back then. Now I'd be lucky to find someone who can train once a week consistently.

That would explain it. Do you know what happened to Phillipe Boiron, the first Yoseikan Instructor at Jan de Jong's?

I have only heard good things about Auge's aikido. The video I saw was of kata type training taken in gradings.

What I experienced with Auge Sensei was nothing like what Ross was doing, so I can only assume he teach a little differently to the Seifukai. Next time I am in Japan, I am planing to stop by.

Regards,

Ethan Weisgard
09-02-2007, 06:38 AM
Back to sutemi waza: Saito Sensei sometimes showed sutemi waza when we were doing kaeshi waza. They were clearly a part of the legacy. Kaeshi waza were supposed to be taught to instructors only so these techniques were probably not shown that often.

In Aiki,

Ethan

wildaikido
09-02-2007, 08:15 AM
Back to sutemi waza: Saito Sensei sometimes showed sutemi waza when we were doing kaeshi waza. They were clearly a part of the legacy. Kaeshi waza were supposed to be taught to instructors only so these techniques were probably not shown that often.

In Aiki,

Ethan

Interesting! Can anyone discuss this further, maybe with an example.

Regards,

darin
09-02-2007, 11:22 AM
That would explain it. Do you know what happened to Phillipe Boiron, the first Yoseikan Instructor at Jan de Jong's?

What I experienced with Auge Sensei was nothing like what Ross was doing, so I can only assume he teach a little differently to the Seifukai. Next time I am in Japan, I am planing to stop by.

Regards,

Sorry, don't know what happened to Phillipe Boiron. I never met him or heard anyone talk about him before.

I haven't trained with Ross for a few years so I don't know what kind of aikido he is doing now. I wish him the best with his new dojo.

Here is some video of IYBF aikido I found on the web:

http://www.nadeo.ca/daniel/aikido/

wildaikido
09-02-2007, 12:46 PM
Sorry, don't know what happened to Phillipe Boiron. I never met him or heard anyone talk about him before.

I will ask Sensei Hans when he returns. Telling me about David just made me think about other previous instructors, and I know Phillipe was the first. There is a picture of him in Jan's book, but that's all I know.

I haven't trained with Ross for a few years so I don't know what kind of aikido he is doing now. I wish him the best with his new dojo.

Here is some video of IYBF aikido I found on the web:

http://www.nadeo.ca/daniel/aikido/

I think I meet Daniel when I was at a clinic in Montreal. There were lots of people there, I have never trained with that many people on the mat. Easily 100 people on the mats.

Regards,

salim
09-02-2007, 07:45 PM
Back to sutemi waza: Saito Sensei sometimes showed sutemi waza when we were doing kaeshi waza. They were clearly a part of the legacy. Kaeshi waza were supposed to be taught to instructors only so these techniques were probably not shown that often.

In Aiki,

Ethan

I would suspect that the early students of Ueshiba, all had some level of proficiency with Judo (sutemi waza). The fact that Ueshiba study Judo would suggest that there is a legacy of sutemi waza. This is more profound with the methods of Mochizuki Minoru and his legacy of Aikido.

darin
09-02-2007, 09:42 PM
Hans and Dean should remember David King. I wonder if Dean still keeps in contact with our old iaido teacher Luis Garcia.

wildaikido
09-03-2007, 02:54 AM
Hans and Dean should remember David King. I wonder if Dean still keeps in contact with our old iaido teacher Luis Garcia.

He has been trying to get him to come down an teach iai, so yes. I will asked Dean about David on Saturday.

Regards,

Tijani1150
09-03-2007, 05:36 PM
Not true. The original Aikido (Aikibudo) was for combat and self defense. Aikido changed after the religious conversion of Ueshiba. The early students have preserved the original combat Aikido.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo

Salim who are these students OR what styles represent the preserved original combat aikido today?

salim
09-03-2007, 08:00 PM
Salim who are these students OR what styles represent the preserved original combat aikido today?

All early students of Ueshiba, such as, Shioda Gozo Kancho, and Mochizuki Minoru were taught more Aikibujutsu principles, Pre WWII Aikido before the heavy religious influence from Oomoto.

Morihei's deep involvement in the esoteric Omoto-kyo of religion and his varied experience later seriously altered the art into something more philosophical minded.

I would say styles such as Yoshinkan, Aikibudo and some aspects of Yoseikan, although heavily modernized contains the original combat Aikido.

salim
09-03-2007, 08:07 PM
All early students of Ueshiba, such as, Shioda Gozo Kancho, and Mochizuki Minoru were taught more Aikibujutsu principles, Pre WWII Aikido before the heavy religious influence from Oomoto.

Morihei's deep involvement in the esoteric Omoto-kyo of religion and his varied experience later seriously altered the art into something more philosophical minded.

I would say styles such as Yoshinkan, Aikibudo and some aspects of Yoseikan, although heavily modernized contains the original combat Aikido.

More pre-WWII Aikibudoist, Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Gozo Shioda, Rinjiro Shirata, Takako Kunigoshi, and Kiyoshi Nakakura.

darin
09-03-2007, 09:01 PM
Kenji Tomiki?

Don_Modesto
09-04-2007, 09:46 AM
Morihei's deep involvement in the esoteric Omoto-kyo of religion and his varied experience later seriously altered the art into something more philosophical minded.Have you ever read an account of Jpn shamanism (and Deguchi fits into Eliade's definition of shamanism)?

It's not for the faint of heart. It's not loopy new-age puff for the glazed of eyes and the fixed of smiles. Those folks faced death when they went on their mountain retreats. Ascetic is different from esthetic. They climbed tough peaks for hours. They sat fetal for hours despite the pain in their knees and backs. They sat like that in tiny rooms with hot peppers burning in the center of the room burning their nasal passages and throats. They hung each other over huge precipices. I think Helen Hardacre has an account somewhere if you want to chase it down.

If anything, Ueshiba's infusion of spirituality probably made aikido--or aikibujutsu or whatever we're calling it today--tougher, not easier.

PeterR
09-04-2007, 09:59 AM
Hmmm - I never heard of Degushi (the man with the poofy hair) as being particularily hard.

wildaikido
09-04-2007, 12:41 PM
But it is interesting. Some links to first person accounts would be helpful.

Regards,

Don_Modesto
09-04-2007, 01:03 PM
Hmmm - I never heard of Degushi (the man with the poofy hair) as being particularily hard.No. I'm responding to the supposition that spirituality is inherently fey. Don't think so myself.

I don't know that Deguchi practiced asceticism, but he was both an interepreter of Nao's messages from the other side and a traveler there himself.

Ron Tisdale
09-04-2007, 01:47 PM
And Ueshiba certainly practiced portions of "asceticism" in the form of shugo himself...

Best,
Ron

salim
09-04-2007, 02:05 PM
Have you ever read an account of Jpn shamanism (and Deguchi fits into Eliade's definition of shamanism)?

It's not for the faint of heart. It's not loopy new-age puff for the glazed of eyes and the fixed of smiles. Those folks faced death when they went on their mountain retreats. Ascetic is different from esthetic. They climbed tough peaks for hours. They sat fetal for hours despite the pain in their knees and backs. They sat like that in tiny rooms with hot peppers burning in the center of the room burning their nasal passages and throats. They hung each other over huge precipices. I think Helen Hardacre has an account somewhere if you want to chase it down.

If anything, Ueshiba's infusion of spirituality probably made aikido--or aikibujutsu or whatever we're calling it today--tougher, not easier.

I have never read the accounts of Jpn shamanism. I will research and try to find some information. Really the issues between the PRE WWII Aikido and the Aikido now is the PACIFISM doctrines from the teachings of Oomto.

Aikibudo, Aikijujutsu was originally designed for war, not for spiritual cultivation. Really it's the religious doctrines and it's methodology that some people don't care for.

salim
09-04-2007, 03:14 PM
Salim,

I assume your definition of pacifism is "the refusal to engage in martial activity because of one's principles or beliefs." If it is "the principle or policy that all differences among nations should be adjusted without recourse to war" then I would say IMHO, that we as Aikidoka should all be pacifists. But as Mochizuki Kancho taught us, specifically in his lecture at the Second Aikido Friendship Demonstration, that to survive we must be strong.

As I said before, it was not O'Sensei's religious beliefs that changed him after the war, it was the war itself! O'Sensei used to teach military academies and was friends with admirals and generals. Men like this then declared decided that Japan should enter the war. As a result the country he was born and raised in was bombed and burnt beyond belief. I think this would change anyone who had a martial way of life, and they would think about what the purpose of that martial way was.

Regards,

I respect what you are saying. Peace is always the better choice. I love Pre WWII Aikido, what else can I say!

Ron Tisdale
09-04-2007, 03:23 PM
I love Pre WWII Aikido, what else can I say!

Promise that your love will not encourage hyperbole, fanatacism, fundamentalism or any other such isms...now and forever ever more...amen.

:D
Best,
Ron

salim
09-04-2007, 03:33 PM
Promise that your love will not encourage hyperbole, fanatacism, fundamentalism or any other such isms...now and forever ever more...amen.

:D
Best,
Ron

Scary!

:D

Tijani1150
09-04-2007, 08:11 PM
Salim
I think you are very right in that pre war Aikido is the budo Aikido and the post war aikido was influenced by the spiritual changes that occured to O'Sensei's life but apart from Yoshinkan what other styles preserved aikibudo? I think it is the only style out there that represents pre war aikido

my regards

raul rodrigo
09-04-2007, 09:09 PM
Salim
I think you are very right in that pre war Aikido is the budo Aikido and the post war aikido was influenced by the spiritual changes that occured to O'Sensei's life but apart from Yoshinkan what other styles preserved aikibudo? I think it is the only style out there that represents pre war aikido

my regards

Even within the Aikikai there were teachers that continued with the "prewar" flavor you speak of: Rinjiro Shirata, Bansen Tanaka, Morihiro Saito, Sadateru Arikawa etc. Even if Arikawa and Saito began training in aikido after the war, they had a harder, more combative style that you would never mistake for Kisshomaru's kind of aikido. And if you've ever seen a demo by Hiroshi Isoyama, then you'd know that there is nothing "pacifist" about it.

As Stan Pranin points out, Saito liked to point out the similarity between his waza and the waza of Osensei in the 1938 manual Budo as proof that he faithfully preserved the teachings of the founder. So the prewar/postwar dichotomy is too simplistic.


R

salim
09-04-2007, 10:41 PM
For those who don't think Judo techniques don't exist in Aikido think again. Watch Hiroshi Isoyama use a couple of classical Judo throws. Aikido from it's pre WWII roots.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4

salim
09-04-2007, 11:00 PM
Even within the Aikikai there were teachers that continued with the "prewar" flavor you speak of: Rinjiro Shirata, Bansen Tanaka, Morihiro Saito, Sadateru Arikawa etc. Even if Arikawa and Saito began training in aikido after the war, they had a harder, more combative style that you would never mistake for Kisshomaru's kind of aikido. And if you've ever seen a demo by Hiroshi Isoyama, then you'd know that there is nothing "pacifist" about it.

As Stan Pranin points out, Saito liked to point out the similarity between his waza and the waza of Osensei in the 1938 manual Budo as proof that he faithfully preserved the teachings of the founder. So the prewar/postwar dichotomy is too simplistic.

R
Thank you for pointing out Hiroshi Isoyama. Really dynamic, an inspiration to continue the methodology of Aikido as BUDO.

I found this very interesting article on Aikidojournal about Hiroshi Isoyama. This is a direct quote from the article, an interview.

"Some people were in contact with O-Sensei when he was spreading aikido purely as a budo; others only began learning from him once his thinking had evolved to emphasize aikido as “a way of harmony”; still others learned from him at various periods later in his life. All of these will have different viewpoints and interpretations, and I don’t think it’s possible to say that any of these is better than the others."
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=102

It's nice to know that one of the first generation students, persevered the the combative nature of Aikido.

Tijani1150
09-04-2007, 11:29 PM
For those who don't think Judo techniques don't exist in Aikido think again. Watch Hiroshi Isoyama use a couple of classical Judo throws. Aikido from it's pre WWII roots.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4

I felt sorry for that uke specialy at the last throw :D

great video

by the way what about Chiba sensei? dose his Aikido have a prewar flavor in it?

Ron Tisdale
09-05-2007, 12:42 PM
All of these will have different viewpoints and interpretations, and I don't think it's possible to say that any of these is better than the others.

If we are going to highlight what the man says, we should perhaps ensure we take note of ALL that he said...

B,
R

raul rodrigo
09-05-2007, 06:45 PM
What makes Isoyama a "first generation" student? He was born in 1937, a time when men like Tomiki, Shirata, Shioda, and Mochizuki had already spent several years studying with Morihei at the Kobukan. Isoyama achieved dan rank in the mid 1950s. He is junior to many men who are clearly second generation students, like Saito, Yamaguchi, Tada and Arikawa. Some of Isoyama's seniors were "soft," like K. Ozawa; some of his juniors were quite "hard," like Chiba. So its difficult to make sweeping generalizations about how, allegedly, aikido became namby-pamby right after the war and its budo flavor was lost.

Don_Modesto
09-05-2007, 09:19 PM
What makes Isoyama a "first generation" student? He was born in 1937, a time when men like Tomiki, Shirata, Shioda, and Mochizuki had already spent several years studying with Morihei at the Kobukan. Isoyama achieved dan rank in the mid 1950s. He is junior to many men who are clearly second generation students, like Saito, Yamaguchi, Tada and Arikawa. Some of Isoyama's seniors were "soft," like K. Ozawa; some of his juniors were quite "hard," like Chiba. So its difficult to make sweeping generalizations about how, allegedly, aikido became namby-pamby right after the war and its budo flavor was lost.Punchy.

Succinct.

Nice post.

Bronson
09-05-2007, 10:58 PM
Really it's the religious doctrines and it's methodology that some people don't care for.

And it's exactly those doctrines that some people DO care for.

I love Pre WWII Aikido, what else can I say!

And I love post-WWII aikido, as do many others. Luckily there were many people who took many different things from O Sensei so we can all have a practice that suits us.

All of these will have different viewpoints and interpretations, and I don't think it's possible to say that any of these is better than the others.

If we are going to highlight what the man says, we should perhaps ensure we take note of ALL that he said...

Amen to that Ron,

Bronson

PeterR
09-05-2007, 11:14 PM
Really it's the religious doctrines and it's methodology that some people don't care for.

And it's exactly those doctrines that some people DO care for.

Again I find it interesting that the Aikikai Honbu removed many of the religious trappings after the war from the dojo (anyone remember exactly when that was done).

The kamiza of Tomiki's Dojo is still from Omoto-kyo.

Pre/Post war - all sorts of assumptions and generalizations that just don't fit.

salim
09-06-2007, 08:02 AM
What makes Isoyama a "first generation" student? He was born in 1937, a time when men like Tomiki, Shirata, Shioda, and Mochizuki had already spent several years studying with Morihei at the Kobukan. Isoyama achieved dan rank in the mid 1950s. He is junior to many men who are clearly second generation students, like Saito, Yamaguchi, Tada and Arikawa. Some of Isoyama's seniors were "soft," like K. Ozawa; some of his juniors were quite "hard," like Chiba. So its difficult to make sweeping generalizations about how, allegedly, aikido became namby-pamby right after the war and its budo flavor was lost.

Oops, I fat fingered and typed incorrectly. It's wasn't my intention to make a generalization. Rather it's more important to bring about the forgotten COMBAT nature of Aikido that Shioda, Mochizuki and
Isoyama preserved. Clearly Aikido is budo to some and not to others. We can respect and accept what ever path a person takes with there Aikido.

salim
09-06-2007, 12:12 PM
And it's exactly those doctrines that some people DO care for.

And I love post-WWII aikido, as do many others. Luckily there were many people who took many different things from O Sensei so we can all have a practice that suits us.

Amen to that Ron,

Bronson

Really, it seems that if one approaches there Aikido for combat or self defense, they are some how doing something foreign or more likely to be criticized. Perhaps it's more of a mentality issue overall?

I accept the fact that Aikido is peace and harmony to others or maybe even religion. Some it maybe no more than a combat art. Perhaps it's more of a mentality issue?

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2007, 12:23 PM
Perhaps Salim, but even I (as a member of the Yoshinkan) find your diatribes somewhat distressing.

Perhaps it's because you remind me of me, a few years ago. ;)

Best,
Ron

dps
09-06-2007, 10:37 PM
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=628&highlight=tomiki

Stanley Pranin interview

"I mean the training before the war I don't think was that much more intense than it is perhaps perceived. It was just the society they were living in, with the military government and the whole society being geared up towards conscription and war. In that sense there was tension in the environment. In terms of dojo training, it might have been a little rougher but the people who we think of as being top people figures before the war such as; Tomiki, Shioda and Tohei and people like that, I don't think their training was in anyway particularly more intense, I mean they had direct contact with O'sensei in that time that's for sure.

The difference is that the post war society we live in is not tied with so much tension and also the number of activity's competing for our time and interests are so much more, with; T.V, dvd's, video games, computers and hundreds of different sports and hundreds of different martial arts. There is also the way martial arts is portrayed in the media with its' unrealistic qualities and impossible feats, one guy beating up forty guys all these impossible scenarios, and young people who tend to go to the martial arts are heavily influenced by images like that. It's the time we live in."

David

raul rodrigo
09-07-2007, 12:01 AM
Really, it seems that if one approaches there Aikido for combat or self defense, they are some how doing something foreign or more likely to be criticized. Perhaps it's more of a mentality issue overall?

I accept the fact that Aikido is peace and harmony to others or maybe even religion. Some it maybe no more than a combat art. Perhaps it's more of a mentality issue?

The issue isn't that you say aikido is budo. Because I for one agree that it is. The issue is that you have been dismissing other kinds of aikido (different from what you know) as weak and lacking value; plus you've been making basic mistakes in historical fact, and once wrote that the others on this forum who pointed out some mistakes that they were "dead wrong." If you're going to be that aggressive in this forum, then it would be wise to know the history much better. It's not our mentality that is the issue.

salim
09-07-2007, 12:17 AM
The issue isn't that you say aikido is budo. Because I for one agree that it is. The issue is that you have been dismissing other kinds of aikido (different from what you know) as weak and lacking value; plus you've been making basic mistakes in historical fact, and once wrote that the others on this forum who pointed out some mistakes that they were "dead wrong." If you're going to be that aggressive in this forum, then it would be wise to know the history much better. It's not our mentality that is the issue.

I never dismissed other kinds of Aikido. I'm not sure where you are reading or if you are creating your own interpretations. Mistakes, yes everyone makes mistakes, including yourself. The mentality is proven from your own.

raul rodrigo
09-07-2007, 12:28 AM
I never dismissed other kinds of Aikido. I'm not sure where you are reading or if you are creating your own interpretations. Mistakes, yes everyone makes mistakes, including yourself. The mentality is proven from your own.

You wrote: "It's not my intention to boast, but to revive a history that is ignored."

The question is, how well do you know aikido history? Who is ignoring what?

salim
09-07-2007, 12:56 AM
You wrote: "It's not my intention to boast, but to revive a history that is ignored."

The question is, how well do you know aikido history? Who is ignoring what?

The history of Aikido is somewhat obscure. Some sources contradict themselves. Some early students of Ueshiba took away different understands of Aikido and it's application. Perhaps this is one of the many reasons for the different styles of Aikido. Remember Ueshiba didn't write much about Aikido.

Hiroshi Isoyama stated, "The founder's thinking changed over the years between the time he started teaching aikido and later in his life, so naturally the kinds of movements he used also changed. There are very few people who had direct contact with him over the span of several decades, so in many ways it's like that old story of the three blind men all feeling different parts of an elephant and giving different descriptions of what an elephant is. In that sense, I wonder if there is anyone at all who understands O-Sensei's greatness completely."

He also stated, "As you know, O-Sensei never wrote much about aikido in books, although some of this techniques are recorded in Budo. Sometimes I've wondered why he didn't write more about aikido, but on the other hand, I think I might understand: his thinking gradually evolved, and he may have felt that anything he wrote in his younger years would potentially end up being contradictory to his thinking later on. The same is true of his techniques: if he had said anything definitive about them at any point, he might have ended up contradicting himself later on as he evolved."

There is ambiguity with regards to the methodology of Aikido and some of it's history. It's not your way or my way. Aikido is to the person, based on the path they choose. My path is BUDO and it should be respected.

raul rodrigo
09-07-2007, 03:08 AM
There is ambiguity with regards to the methodology of Aikido and some of it's history. It's not your way or my way. Aikido is to the person, based on the path they choose. My path is BUDO and it should be respected.

You have every right to choose your path and none of us should stand in your way. Please understand, though, if we feel compelled to speak up when you say things like "Aikibudo, (original Aikido) much closer to the Yoseikan Aikido. The preservation of atemi waza and sutemi-waza are heavily part of the methodology. The Aikikai organizations has almost completely removed these methods. The combative nature has been removed." There is a great deal of technical variation inside the Aikikai, which is a political grouping and not a style, and some Aikikai shihan who were not early students of the Founder are quite combative in their waza. It would be difficult to tell an Ichiro Shibata or Kazuo Chiba, for instance, that their aikido is not effective or combative.

best,

R

salim
09-07-2007, 07:52 AM
You have every right to choose your path and none of us should stand in your way. Please understand, though, if we feel compelled to speak up when you say things like "Aikibudo, (original Aikido) much closer to the Yoseikan Aikido. The preservation of atemi waza and sutemi-waza are heavily part of the methodology. The Aikikai organizations has almost completely removed these methods. The combative nature has been removed." There is a great deal of technical variation inside the Aikikai, which is a political grouping and not a style, and some Aikikai shihan who were not early students of the Founder are quite combative in their waza. It would be difficult to tell an Ichiro Shibata or Kazuo Chiba, for instance, that their aikido is not effective or combative.

best,

R
Really I felt compelled to bring up the whole pre WWII Aikido when others and myself on this blog were attacked by those who think that Aikido is for peace and harmony only. So the same goes, when someones tries to tie down Aikido to just peace and harmony, then others and myself will take issue with it. Unfortunately it seems to come from those in the Aikikai political arena more often than not. Some people don't want the atemi waza or sutemi waza.

Hiroshi Isoyama a well respected sensei in Aikikai affiliate, is criticized by some because of his perceived rough and brutal approach to Aikido. You even see him using Judo throws. Some people take issue with his approach and he was taught directly from Ueshiba. Again it's a mentality issue, some wanting to tie down Aikido to just peace and harmony.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4&mode=related&search=

Ron Tisdale
09-07-2007, 09:25 AM
Again, I am not Aikikai, and yet....I am uncomfortable with how you present some of your ideas. Please don't take it personally...these are just words (bits and bytes, even) after all.

I think people are just pointing out some important facts:

The Aikikai is not a style.

Shihan in the Aikikai teach atemi, judo throws, all kinds of good strong budo.

Even some of the more rough and ready Shihan (Rinjiro Shirata comes to mind) combine budo with Omoto kyo quite nicely. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

One of the things I personally like about my instructor is that he insists that religion and aikido remain separate. He wants people from all cultures and beliefs to feel welcome in his dojo, so he makes it clear aikido is not a religion.

Best,
Ron

David Orange
09-07-2007, 10:37 AM
It's nice to know that one of the first generation students, persevered the the combative nature of Aikido.

That's true, but I think, as many others have pointed out, that you're making far too much of the difference. Did you notice the very last line in the quote you posted from Isoyama Sensei?

"All of these will have different viewpoints and interpretations, and I don't think it's possible to say that any of these is better than the others." --Isoyama Sensei

Personally, I enjoyed training with Mochizuki Sensei and I liked his overall approach very much. It was recognizable as aikido at most points, but in ways it was very unlike the aikido of Morihei Ueshiba or any of his other students.

In short, it's impossible to define aikido--almost anyone's aikido--in simple terms.

Best to you.

David

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 10:40 AM
In short, it's impossible to define aikido--almost anyone's aikido--in simple terms.

Hence the reason Aikido is defined in principles :D

David Orange
09-07-2007, 10:55 AM
You even see him using Judo throws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4&mode=related&search=

Sorry. I watched that video clip twice and didn't see a single judo throw. Would you reference the time points?

I did see him do kata guruma a couple of times, but that is an aikido technique derived from daito ryu. You can see it on the cover of "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters" available from Aikido Journal.

So I didn't see any judo at all in that clip.

David

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 11:05 AM
I did see him do kata guruma a couple of times, but that is an aikido technique derived from daito ryu. You can see it on the cover of "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters" available from Aikido Journal.

Isn't that Genseki Otoshi! Kata Garuma is a western technique that Kano learnt while in the US I think. He came back to the Kodokan and showed the others, and they said something like "Sensei, what is that?" And he replied "Its a secrete technique." They said, "But Judo has no secrete techniques!" He smiled.

Regards,

ChrisMoses
09-07-2007, 11:12 AM
Sorry. I watched that video clip twice and didn't see a single judo throw. Would you reference the time points?

I did see him do kata guruma a couple of times, but that is an aikido technique derived from daito ryu. You can see it on the cover of "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters" available from Aikido Journal.

So I didn't see any judo at all in that clip.

David

Agreed, the only thing that could be construed as a judo throw is kata guruma. If I remember correctly, Isoyama Sensei considers that throw to be a modification of Aikido's koshinage. When he started getting lots of big gaijin in Iwama, he had to shift the load point higher on his back/shoulders to get them off of the ground. Thus the Isoyama kata guruma throw. As David points out, it's also found in Daito Ryu. Isoyama is one of the few Japanese shihan whose first martial art was Aikido. I believe he started Aikido in Iwama while still a child, before he would have had judo in school.

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 11:14 AM
Just checked the cover... It is Genseki Otoshi or Ganseki Otoshi... Rock Drop!

Regards,

darin
09-07-2007, 11:22 AM
David, I think on Mochizuki Kancho's book it says Nihonden Jujitsu Kurou obi aikido. Did he ever refer to his aikido as jujitsu when you were his student? Unno Sensei told me we don't really do aikido but Aiki budo or aiki jujitsu.

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 11:28 AM
David, I think on Mochizuki Kancho's book it says Nihonden Jujitsu Kurou obi aikido. Did he ever refer to his aikido as jujitsu when you were his student? Unno Sensei told me we don't really do aikido but Aiki budo or aiki jujitsu.

Yoshi said a similar thing to me, but he said that they weren't separate any more, not that it wasn't Aikido. But you spent a lot more time with him then me.

Some of the original students in the US describe a very Aikido art. These are the people who stopped training when Auge Sensei got there, because they did not like this approach (this information is from David on eBudo, so he should comment further). I have Mochizuki's French book from the 50's (one just sold on eBay for 400 euros) and it is very much Aikido. This book is very similar to what Sensei Hans teaches us, and he says he teaches us what Yoshi taught him.

Regards,

salim
09-07-2007, 11:33 AM
Again, I am not Aikikai, and yet....I am uncomfortable with how you present some of your ideas. Please don't take it personally...these are just words (bits and bytes, even) after all.

I think people are just pointing out some important facts:

The Aikikai is not a style.

Shihan in the Aikikai teach atemi, judo throws, all kinds of good strong budo.

Even some of the more rough and ready Shihan (Rinjiro Shirata comes to mind) combine budo with Omoto kyo quite nicely. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

One of the things I personally like about my instructor is that he insists that religion and aikido remain separate. He wants people from all cultures and beliefs to feel welcome in his dojo, so he makes it clear aikido is not a religion.

Best,
Ron
I never said you were Aikikai. I said some people. Again some people in Aikikai, not all, that includes you. I just pointed you to sensei Hiroshi Isoyama and he is affiliated with Aikikai and very combative with his Aikido. Some does not mean all. Not sure how to make some not translate to all to you.

darin
09-07-2007, 11:38 AM
Hence the reason Aikido is defined in principles :D

So not by techniques?

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 11:45 AM
So not by techniques?

Not as far as I am concerned. But I have not found anyone here who supports this idea. :confused:

Regards,

Ron Tisdale
09-07-2007, 11:45 AM
I think you miss the meat of my post. Read carefully, and perhaps you'll see what I mean.

Best,
Ron (no biggie either way)
I never said you were Aikikai. I said some people. Again some people in Aikikai, not all, that includes you. I just pointed you to sensei Hiroshi Isoyama and he is affiliated with Aikikai and very combative with his Aikido. Some does not mean all. Not sure how to make some not translate to all to you.

salim
09-07-2007, 11:51 AM
Sorry. I watched that video clip twice and didn't see a single judo throw. Would you reference the time points?

I did see him do kata guruma a couple of times, but that is an aikido technique derived from daito ryu. You can see it on the cover of "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters" available from Aikido Journal.

So I didn't see any judo at all in that clip.

David
Don't some judoka refer to the kata guruma as a judo move?

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 11:54 AM
Don't some judoka refer to the kata guruma as a judo move?

I am trying to clear this confusion up, but no has replied yet!

Regards,

salim
09-07-2007, 11:57 AM
Sorry. I watched that video clip twice and didn't see a single judo throw. Would you reference the time points?

I did see him do kata guruma a couple of times, but that is an aikido technique derived from daito ryu. You can see it on the cover of "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters" available from Aikido Journal.

So I didn't see any judo at all in that clip.

David

Wikipedia has an article that refers to the kata guruma as a Judo move. Invited by Jigoro Kano.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kata_Guruma

raul rodrigo
09-07-2007, 12:05 PM
[QUOTE=Salim Shaw;188900]
Hiroshi Isoyama a well respected sensei in Aikikai affiliate, is criticized by some because of his perceived rough and brutal approach to Aikido. You even see him using Judo throws. Some people take issue with his approach and he was taught directly from Ueshiba. Again it's a mentality issue, some wanting to tie down Aikido to just peace and harmony.

Criticized by whom? Isoyama is an eighth dan in very good standing in the Aikikai world. At the last IAF Congress in 2004, he was one of the few shihan selected by the IAF to teach a class. He taught a practical, combative version of gokkyo against a tanto. By no means does he have a negative reputation technically, and as for "brutality," well, his ukes in demos still manage to walk off the mat under their own power, without leaving any teeth on the mat. You make it seem as if the combative shihan in the Aikikai world are somehow marginalized because of their approach. Thats not the case. Neither are you being singled out because of your approach, but rather because of your shaky grasp of history. All we are saying is you need to get out a bit more. Ron T, who is a Yoshinkan man who sometimes trains with Aikikai groups, is the right guy to deliver the message that we could all use a broader perspective.

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 12:07 PM
Wikipedia has an article that refers to the kata guruma as a Judo move. Invited by Jigoro Kano.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kata_Guruma

I am looking for my reference, but I am pretty sure he got it from wrestling in the US.

But it is a mute point, "Kata Garuma" is a "Judo" technique, and other technique people are refering to is Ganseki Otoshi.

Regards,

salim
09-07-2007, 12:20 PM
[QUOTE=Salim Shaw;188900]
Hiroshi Isoyama a well respected sensei in Aikikai affiliate, is criticized by some because of his perceived rough and brutal approach to Aikido. You even see him using Judo throws. Some people take issue with his approach and he was taught directly from Ueshiba. Again it's a mentality issue, some wanting to tie down Aikido to just peace and harmony.

Criticized by whom? Isoyama is an eighth dan in very good standing in the Aikikai world. At the last IAF Congress in 2004, he was one of the few shihan selected by the IAF to teach a class. He taught a practical, combative version of gokkyo against a tanto. By no means does he have a negative reputation technically, and as for "brutality," well, his ukes in demos still manage to walk off the mat under their own power, without leaving any teeth on the mat. You make it seem as if the combative shihan in the Aikikai world are somehow marginalized because of their approach. Thats not the case. Neither are you being singled out because of your approach, but rather because of your shaky grasp of history. All we are saying is you need to get out a bit more. Ron T, who is a Yoshinkan man who sometimes trains with Aikikai groups, is the right guy to deliver the message that we could all use a broader perspective.

Listen, I'm not going to go back and forth with you on the point. The obscurity of history is a mute point. Contradictions about Aikido are all over the place. Ambiguity is everywhere regarding the methodology of Aikido. People make accusations about Hiroshi Isoyama in Youtube. The person who post the video indicates, " Isoyama Sensei is rough and brutal." Which is not true at all.
I introduce some Aikidoist to his clip and they bad mouth his method of Aikido. I'm addressing a mentality here. You have missed the 800lbs gorilla charging at you. I love his methods.

Forget the subject!

ChrisMoses
09-07-2007, 12:22 PM
I am looking for my reference, but I am pretty sure he got it from wrestling in the US.

But it is a mute point, "Kata Garuma" is a "Judo" technique, and other technique people are refering to is Ganseki Otoshi.

Regards,

Many schools teach koshinage the same as OGoshi, (http://www.judoinfo.com/video/gokyo/OGoshi.wmv), Aiki-otoshi as Sukui Nage, (http://www.judoinfo.com/video/gokyo/SukuiNage.wmv) kokyu nage as Sumi Otoshi... (http://www.judoinfo.com/video/gokyo/SumiOtoshi.wmv)

I think it's silly to be dismissive of something being a "judo" technique when there are so many shades of gray. Both are based on older jujutsu. What makes something judo vs. aikido (to me) is how it is done, not what trademarked name is used.

raul rodrigo
09-07-2007, 12:27 PM
[QUOTE=Raul Rodrigo;188957]

Listen, I'm not going to go back and forth with you on the point. The obscurity of history is a mute point. Contradictions about Aikido are all over the place. Ambiguity is everywhere regarding the methodology of Aikido. People make accusations about Hiroshi Isoyama in Youtube. The person who post the video indicates, " Isoyama Sensei is rough and brutal." Which is not true at all.
I introduce some Aikidoist to his clip and they bad mouth his method of Aikido. I'm addressing a mentality here. You have missed the 800lbs gorilla charging at you. I love his methods.

Forget the subject!

I haven't badmouthed him. And I have as much trouble as you do with the aiki-bunnies and the "love, peace and harmony" aikidoka who can't do basic waza properly. First you say the combative element in Aikikai has been removed. Then you concede that the combative element remains but it is badmouthed. Which is it? And if it is badmouthed, by some, so what? The truly important thing is that it is still there. Love his methods by all means. Who is stopping you?

R

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 12:28 PM
I think it's silly to be dismissive of something being a "judo" technique when there are so many shades of gray. Both are based on older jujutsu. What makes something judo vs. aikido (to me) is how it is done, not what trademarked name is used.

Ah but the point here is the technique did not come from older jujutsu. The story is that it came from wrestling. And the technique in that video is Kata Garuma, not the Ganseki Otoshi as others have suggested, which is from Daito Ryu.

I understand were he learnt the technique is not important.

I am not saying you can't do "judo" techniques in "aikido" (note the use of the bunny ears). I do Yoseikan, and we include almost all judo throws. But I am still doing Aikido.

Regards,

salim
09-07-2007, 12:34 PM
[QUOTE=Salim Shaw;188962]

I haven't badmouthed him. And I have as much trouble as you do with the aiki-bunnies and the "love, peace and harmony" aikidoka who can't do basic waza properly. First you say the combative element in Aikikai has been removed. Then you concede that the combative element remains but it is badmouthed. Which is it? And if it is badmouthed, by some, so what? The truly important thing is that it is still there. Love his methods by all means. Who is stopping you?

R
I use words like some, and almost completely removed, and you interpret that to mean absolute. I think the english is pretty clear. You are letting the gorilla tear you apart.

Forget!

raul rodrigo
09-07-2007, 12:40 PM
You wrote: "The combative nature has been removed."

Seems pretty absolute to me.

salim
09-07-2007, 01:04 PM
You wrote: "The combative nature has been removed."

Seems pretty absolute to me.
Where is completely or absolute in the statement?

Analyse the word nature.

The gorilla is behind you attacking from the other side.

raul rodrigo
09-07-2007, 01:08 PM
Where is completely or absolute in the statement?

Analyse the word nature.

The gorilla is behind you attacking from the other side.

We can go at this all day: "The combative nature of aikido has been reduced." "Been de-emphasized." Or "not been the major focus of current Akikai practice." "It has been minimized." As opposed to "removed." See what happens when a statement in English has been properly qualified?

salim
09-07-2007, 01:15 PM
We can go at this all day: "The combative nature of aikido has been reduced." "Been de-emphasized." Or "not been the major focus of current Akikai practice." "It has been minimized." As opposed to "removed." See what happens when a statement in English has been properly qualified?

Mentality!!!

darin
09-07-2007, 01:18 PM
Yoshi said a similar thing to me, but he said that they weren't separate any more, not that it wasn't Aikido. But you spent a lot more time with him then me.

Some of the original students in the US describe a very Aikido art. These are the people who stopped training when Auge Sensei got there, because they did not like this approach (this information is from David on eBudo, so he should comment further).

Regards,

Yeah I think he pretty much called all aikido/aikijujitsu as aikido but would state the difference if he wanted to be specific.

I heard that Mochizuki used to run a traditional aikibudo class in his dojo but gave it a makeover after he returned from France. Could the US instructor before Auge be from that era?

raul rodrigo
09-07-2007, 01:19 PM
Precisely; you skip back and forth from a complaint about Aikikai waza, which you say now almost completely lack atemi and sutemi waza (not true, as others on this thread have said) to a generalized complaint about some people' objections to combative aikido. The mentality, so to speak. Let them object. What does it have to do with you?

bob_stra
09-07-2007, 01:22 PM
Ah but the point here is the technique did not come from older jujutsu. The story is that it came from wrestling.
Regards,

Apocryphally..... But I'm not sure you can take that any more at face value than you can stories of Mifune falling off roofs to practice his ukemi.

CK sensei over at judo forum would be the one to ask on this, if you were so inclined.

In any case, the two techniques in question are not the same, though you may be amused to know versions of kata guruma similar to Ganseki Otoshi exist in judo.

eg:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=FL_YpFNKpnE

There is also a tech is called the dimello (named after the Cuban who specialized in it IIRC) and is a modification of sode tsurikomi goshi. It looks, basically, like a cartwheel with the guy on your back, with his back on your shoulders and his face towards the ceiling.

FWIW

raul rodrigo
09-07-2007, 01:25 PM
A Aikikai seventh dan Japanese shihan born well after the war and who achieved dan rank in the late 1960s once taught us this beautiful sutemi waza a few years ago. You blend with the yokomen, move forward to grab ukes hips and then do a back roll. And he is not above nailing us with a well timed strike or a nerve hit. When an uke is reluctant to go along with irimi nage, he likes to pinch them with forefinger and thumb on both sides of the mouth. The pain quickly makes them change their mind. No peace and harmony there.

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 01:26 PM
Yeah I think he pretty much called all aikido/aikijujitsu as aikido but would state the difference if he wanted to be specific.

I heard that Mochizuki used to run a traditional aikibudo class in his dojo but gave it a makeover after he returned from France. Could the US instructor before Auge be from that era?

Yes. I talk about him on the Wikipedia page. His name was Sadayuki Demizu. The interesting thing, is that this is older Yoseikan, and it is described more like Aikido, not Aikibudo.

Regards,

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 01:29 PM
In any case, the two techniques in question are not the same, though you may be amused to know versions of kata guruma similar to Ganseki Otoshi exist in judo.

eg:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=FL_YpFNKpnE

The Ganseki Otoshi in Aikido is kata garuma, but with uke's back across your shoulders, not his chest!

Regards,

bob_stra
09-07-2007, 01:41 PM
The Ganseki Otoshi in Aikido is kata garuma, but with uke's back across your shoulders, not his chest!

Regards,

No: that first clip shows a variation of kata guruma that may be of interest however.

I can't find any clips on Youtube, but IMS you pretty much described the launch position of the Dimelo, as mentioned in my first post.

The throw mechanics are entirely different, however, as the dimelo ends up with something between a cartwheel and a supplex.

It is not a nice throw...at all...but it scores in comps.

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 01:53 PM
No: that first clip shows a variation of kata guruma that may be of interest however.

Are you talking about the kneeling one? That is the "standard" kata garuma in Yoseikan. I am aware of Mifunes kata garuma (throwing over one shoulder), my instructor does this in his jujutsu.

Regards

salim
09-07-2007, 01:57 PM
No: that first clip shows a variation of kata guruma that may be of interest however.

I can't find any clips on Youtube, but IMS you pretty much described the launch position of the Dimelo, as mentioned in my first post.

The throw mechanics are entirely different, however, as the dimelo ends up with something between a cartwheel and a supplex.

It is not a nice throw...at all...but it scores in comps.

Is the kata guruma in this video Judo throws? I ask some of my Judo buddies and they seem to think so.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 02:04 PM
Salim, Salim, Salim. What are we to do with you?

Did you ever learn the lesson, "let sleeping bears lie."

But I guess its fun to read you exchange with the others.

BTW, yes that was a Russian Judo video.

Regards,

bob_stra
09-07-2007, 02:06 PM
Is the kata guruma in this video Judo throws? I ask some of my Judo buddies and they seem to think so.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4

At 1:41?

You tell me (can't quite see it)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3wsQE6K3a6s

(1:12)

Maybe here too
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CUne9Xg55og

EDIT:

If you meant the first clip I posted: yes, those are judo throws

salim
09-07-2007, 02:11 PM
Salim, Salim, Salim. What are we to do with you?

Did you ever learn the lesson, "let sleeping bears lie."

But I guess its fun to read you exchange with the others.

BTW, yes that was a Russian Judo video.

Regards,

I was asking for clarification for Hiroshi Isoyama video.

bob_stra
09-07-2007, 02:12 PM
Are you talking about the kneeling one? That is the "standard" kata garuma in Yoseikan. I am aware of Mifunes kata garuma (throwing over one shoulder), my instructor does this in his jujutsu.

Regards

No - the one at 0:09 seconds of the Russian judo clip.

It's kata gurmua alright...but it's a little different to the norm.

Kneeling one's are a dime a dozen in judo and sambo

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 02:15 PM
I was asking for clarification for Hiroshi Isoyama video.

OH, sorry. Yes those throw are without doubt Kata Garuma, which in japanese arts, comes from wrestling, through judo, hence it would be characterised as a "judo throw" (again note the bunny ears).

Regards,

salim
09-07-2007, 02:16 PM
OH, sorry. Yes those throw are without doubt Kata Garuma, which in japanese arts, comes from wrestling, through judo, hence it would be characterised as a "judo throw" (again note the bunny ears).

Regards,
Thanks!

Regards

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 02:18 PM
No - the one at 0:09 seconds of the Russian judo clip.

It's kata gurmua alright...but it's a little different to the norm.

Kneeling one's are a dime a dozen in judo and sambo

We in Yoseikan Aikido at my school, call that a Koshi Gaeshi (hip overturn). I think most Aikidoka would characterise that as a koshi waza, since the person is going over the hips. But since when has everyone used the same terms.

Regards,

bob_stra
09-07-2007, 02:23 PM
I'm not 100% sure...but maybe 50% sure that I've seen that move on sumo technique page that was mentioned on judoforum a year or so ago. This would preclude it from having western wrestling origins in judo?

I dunno - maybe, maybe not

I really need to go to bed now....so feel free to go check. I may start a thread over there on the topic

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 02:29 PM
I'm not 100% sure...but maybe 50% sure that I've seen that move on sumo technique page that was mentioned on judoforum a year or so ago. This would preclude it from having western wrestling origins in judo?

I dunno - maybe, maybe not

I really need to go to bed now....so feel free to go check. I may start a thread over there on the topic

WOW, a SHOULDER WHEEL in sumo!

This is just an opinion, but I would have to say NO WAY!

Regards,

bob_stra
09-07-2007, 02:56 PM
WOW, a SHOULDER WHEEL in sumo!

This is just an opinion, but I would have to say NO WAY!

Regards,

Let's see what turns up

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=19873

Maybe something here too

http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kimarite/index.html

BING BING BING

We have a winner
http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kimarite/41.html

bob_stra
09-07-2007, 03:03 PM
WOW, a SHOULDER WHEEL in sumo!

This is just an opinion, but I would have to say NO WAY!

Regards,

and another

http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kimarite/20.html

And possibly a third

http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kimarite/50.html

Need to seem them in action to verify...static positions look correct and description gels more or less

Keep an eye on the judo thread and see what it turns up. Already, a mention of Kano studying jujitsu scrolls...

wildaikido
09-08-2007, 04:39 AM
Let's see what turns up

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=19873

Maybe something here too

http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kimarite/index.html

BING BING BING

We have a winner
http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kimarite/41.html

and another

http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kimarite/20.html

And possibly a third

http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kimarite/50.html

Need to seem them in action to verify...static positions look correct and description gels more or less

Keep an eye on the judo thread and see what it turns up. Already, a mention of Kano studying jujitsu scrolls...

Only number one (shumokuzori) Bob. But the fact is this still a sacrifice throw were you load him up like kata garuma, and the throw is achieved by falling back. So not technically a kata garuma. I still don't think sumo wrestlers could load up and throw over. To much weight involved.

The kakezori is very similar to a technique we do from a head lock. But here the person is not being thrown over, he is being forced down with the leverage. The tasukizori is a combination of makezori and shumokuzori, where you leaver into the side, and push them sidewards and down.

Try again :)

I love sumo btw, and I have never seen it. But if it is included, it could very well have come from judo :p

To stay on topic I think we have a few sumo type throws in Yoseikan's technical syllabus, such as ashitori.

Regards,

bob_stra
09-08-2007, 05:40 AM
Only number one (shumokuzori) Bob. But the fact is this still a sacrifice throw were you load him up like kata garuma, and the throw is achieved by falling back. So not technically a kata garuma

Only if you stick by the strictest of strict interpretations of those words (kata GURUMA), Graham.

However, in practice....and seemingly in judo competition....loading him up on your shoulders and falling backwards still classifies it as kata guruma. Or at least it did, until it was outlawed. Odd too that it was, as in some ways, this method is safer on uke that what replaced it (drop knee)

In any case -

I think it establishes an interesting possibility of kata guruma - perhaps in crude form - existing well before Kano codified it.

Keep an eye on the judoforum thread, as details may arise there

PeterR
09-08-2007, 06:10 AM
However, in practice....and seemingly in judo competition....loading him up on your shoulders and falling backwards still classifies it as kata guruma. Or at least it did, until it was outlawed.
This is interesting. When I took part in the dan promotion shiai in Himeji one of the most amazing things I saw was a kid take out an opponent 50% heavier with kata guruma. No weight divisions. Is kata guruma outlawed or just the falling back.

David Orange
09-08-2007, 10:03 AM
Isn't that Genseki Otoshi!

Took me a moment to recognize what you were saying. I should read more slowly.

Actually, I never thought of the daito ryu name for that technique. So I guess you're right. If it were kata guruma, it would be judo!

Thanks.

David

darin
09-08-2007, 10:11 AM
WWE versions of kata guruma. Its acting but still requires strength and technique. Sumo wrestlers of the past probably weren't as heavy as the ones of today so maybe they could perform more spectactular throws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BLIKm6UZKA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_GNAJfHz64

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yYGfkPT86M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUt-5PnrfjY

Sokaku Takeda doing a back breaker.

http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/deutsch/aikido-deutsch-23-kiai.htm

bob_stra
09-08-2007, 10:34 AM
This is interesting. When I took part in the dan promotion shiai in Himeji one of the most amazing things I saw was a kid take out an opponent 50% heavier with kata guruma. No weight divisions. Is kata guruma outlawed or just the falling back.

Hiya Peter

Kata guruma is fine. For example -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko2ziLntk5c

It's kata guruma + "back supplex" that's outlawed now (IIRC). And even then, maybe not everywhere?

David Orange
09-08-2007, 10:47 AM
David, I think on Mochizuki Kancho's book it says Nihonden Jujitsu Kurou obi aikido. Did he ever refer to his aikido as jujitsu when you were his student? Unno Sensei told me we don't really do aikido but Aiki budo or aiki jujitsu.

Sensei believed that it was all jujutsu--judo, sumo, aikido, daito ryu, etc. But he did tell me that judo-type jujutsu evolved from sumo, while aiki-jujutsu evolved from ken jutsu. His kata, ken tai iichi reflects that.

He said, "Jujutsu is Japanese culture. It is an expression of the Japanese character, created by smaller, weaker people to overcome the large and strong through perseverance and creativity."

The title of his book, Nihonden Jujutsu kurou obi aikido (Japanese-style Jujutsu, black belt aikido), reflects his belief that all the major unarmed fighting methods of the samurai period were expressions of jujutsu and that the modern methods are all rooted in that jujutsu. Karate, of course, is not included in that summary, not being originally Japanese.

Sensei rather believed that once one reached black belt (shodan) level in aikido, it simply opened the door to the wider world of Japanese jujutsu.

Still, he gave ranks in aikido, up to ninth dan, and had separate aikido and judo classes, but in the aikido class, you might do a lot of types of jujutsu and judo. It was the aiki set-up that made it aikido, in his approach. You could do a judo-type tai otoshi or uchi maki komi, but if you set it up with aiki, then it was within his aikido.

Best to you.

David

David Orange
09-08-2007, 11:36 AM
Yoshi said a similar thing to me, but he said that they weren't separate any more, not that it wasn't Aikido.

Right. I was reading in "Conversations with Aikjujutsu Masters" that some leading aikido people understood "aikido" to refer to daito ryu aikijujutsu and that some daito ryu people called their art aikido. And it is true that Minoru Hirai, creator of korindo aikido, was the one who actually created the name and registered it with the butokuden. It was actually intended to be a fairly broad category, including his approach, Ueshiba's and that of daito ryu, as well as any other art using aiki.

Some of the original students in the US describe a very Aikido art. These are the people who stopped training when Auge Sensei got there, because they did not like this approach (this information is from David on eBudo, so he should comment further).

It think that's reflective of the "brand-namization" of aikido after O-Sensei's death. What was a fairly inclusive term became more and more strictly applicable to the aikikai, and even more so when Tohei left. Stanley Pranin has done us a great service to show that the roots are still connected and we do well to understand how broad aikido really is. The people who left when Auge was getting established were those who would have liked to push that old yoseikan aikido much further toward the aikikai brand. Of course, one fellow was rather older and Auge's influence was making the art more demanding. Eventually, I think, Auge did succeed in developing the all-round, smooth art that Mochizuki Sensei was aiming for, combining aikido, judo, karate and sword in a seamless blend of smooth and "very soft" aikido. That is to say that it's hard to feel his technique because it is so soft and smooth, similar to that of Murai Sensei.

I have Mochizuki's French book from the 50's (one just sold on eBay for 400 euros) and it is very much Aikido. This book is very similar to what Sensei Hans teaches us, and he says he teaches us what Yoshi taught him.

And I'm sure it is very much what was being taught in the US before Patrick Auge. I was fortunate to get a pretty good exposure to that art from 1974 to 1976. It was a very interesting art with a fairly limited technical reperoire, not very different from mainstream aikido. This reflects Mochizuki Sensei's approach to aikido up until the mid-1960s or so, when Sadayuki Demizu (Sensei's son-in-law) taught military personnel at Redstone Arsenal in Alabama.

In Japan, Mochizuki Sensei was thinking about sutemi waza. He was feeling bad about his old teacher in gyokushin ryu jujutsu. He met that old Shinto priest when he was about 18 and was training in Toku Sampo's judo dojo. The old man called to him and his friends when they were on the way to training and said he could tell they were judo players. He offered to teach them his ryu and they started, but most of them quickly dropped out because it was all kata and very boring and they wanted to do judo shiai. But Mochizuki stayed long enough to get shodan or nidan level and then left. He said he used to go and the priest would give him the offerings from the Shinto altar for him to eat. He said he would eat the cakes and things and "run away." The old man wanted him to train further and told him, "Beyond this level (first scroll), gyokushin ryu has a lot of sutemi waza." Sensei knew a lot about that already, having been uchi deshi to Kyuzo Mifune, and apparently he didn't put too much value in it. In any case, he quit going and the old man passed away. This was before he met Morihei Ueshiba. When he did meet Ueshiba, he was able to learn fast because he said many of the techniques were similar to gyokushin and he could recognize them faster than those with judo experience because those techniques (such as kote gaeshi) were not included in judo. So he was able to catch on quickly to what Ueshiba was doing.

In the 1950s, in France, he met some pro wrestlers and admired their sacrifice techniques. He realized that the sacrifice most fully expressed Kano's idea of "maximum efficient use of energy." And it was about that time that he started regretting that he had missed the opportunity to learn the sutemi waza of the gyokushin ryu. He said he never even saw the techniques, though I think he did see some drawings on a scroll that the master showed him.

He had become more appreciative of the cultural value of the broad budo education that Kano Jigoro had given him and he realized that he had allowed an entire art to disappear in history. In about the mid-60s, this was bothering him enough that he decided to try to reconstruct the gyokushin ryu and he started surmising on how the sutemi waza would have related to the hand techniques he had learned. He produced a thin little book documenting about ten of his sutemi waza sometime around the late sixties or early seventies, which is about when Patrick Auge went to train at the dojo.

In those days, Mochizuki Sensei had the black belts experimenting with various approaches to sutemi waza with all kinds of judo and aikido/jujutsu techniques. For instance, he developed a kote gaeshi sutemi waza in which you apply kote gaeshi (one of the most dreadful techniques in aikido) by dropping to the ground, making it probably ten times as awful a technique (in terms of uke). He had variations of kata guruma as sutemi--maybe four or five major variations of that. He developed all these techniques rationally, then had Auge, Washizu, Tezuka and Kenmotsu be the main test-nage and test-uke. They were difficult to perform and very difficult to fall for. Eventually, they smoothed out and refined those techniques and all became real masters of that method. And that would include some not named, such as Akahori Sensei and Murai Sensei, "little" Mochizuki and several others. But Auge, Washizu, Tezuka and Kenmotsu were a special group among those. And that is why I say that Patrick was able to establish the art that Mochizuki Sensei was aiming for: it was a work in progress at a time when Mochizuki was around his peak, Patrick was an excellent age and with the ability and time to learn, and he stuck very closely to what Sensei was teaching. Since then, he has methodically lead his large group of students--including abou twenty that have been with him for over twenty years, I believe--in that Shizuoka aikido of the mid-1970s.

Patrick Auge came to the US in 1976. Ten or twelve people, I think, were still doing aikido from the line Demizu had taught at Redstone. Glenn Pack was teaching at the University of Alabama and I had been training there for several months. I had had a good exposure to the general aikido art that Demizu had taught but we followed Auge for several years and he taught us the kind of art Mochizuki Sensei was developing at the hombu. So that was what I trained in until I went to Japan in 1990 and found that what I was doing fit well at the dojo. By that time, the composite art of judo, aikido, karate, sword and sutemi waza had become a very smooth, clear and unique style and it was very recognizable.

I am glad I was not involved in the later politics.

Best to you.

David

David Orange
09-08-2007, 11:38 AM
Don't some judoka refer to the kata guruma as a judo move?

As others have pointed out by now, it is actually not kata guruma but ganseki otoshi, from daito ryu. And that is just to say that the aikido repertoire is pretty broad, depending where you look. The best, I think, is to look to the best and ignore the rest. Have positive ki and don't worry about the negative.

Best to you.

David

wildaikido
09-08-2007, 01:34 PM
David,

I love reading your posts. It always makes want to learn more. I think it is great.

A lot of people don't know the origin of the term "AIKIDO" The aikikai people here talk about how O'Sensei came up with the word aikido to describe his art, the way of love. The truth is back when Kancho was learning from him, it was budo, it had lots of names, but the important under pinning idea was budo. Then yes, this umbrella term Aikido was suggested by Hirai. This is why so many people think that his art, Korindo Aikido, is a style of Aikido, but it is a separate Aikido art.

I assume the use of the term Budo had a big influence on Kancho, hence the name change to Yoseikan Budo.

This is why I like to maintain the term Aikido, because when O’Sensei used the term Aikido, he was referring to his budo. Kano also said that Aikido was his ideal budo. So to me Aikido represents true budo. Hence the reason I use the term. Aikido wa Budo desu. Aikido is Budo!

When I visited Auge Sensei, he I showed him some of the basics we do that I did not see him doing. He said that they were old exercises they didn't do anymore. One of these is in the book I mentioned (My Method of Aikido Jujutsu). We basically do all of the techniques in this book, in the same way they are shown.

If you are not aware, the basic kata guruma sutemi actually comes from Mifune Sensei. This is the kneeling kata guruma, but you sacrifice onto your side throwing them over yourself.

The ganseki otoshi is a horrible technique to fall from. We have different ganseki otoshi in Yoseikan Aikido at my school. It is a shoulder throw with boths arms barred across the throwing shoulder. So it is like gyaku seoi and seoi nage together. Have you ever done this throw?

Regards,

salim
09-08-2007, 01:46 PM
David,

I love reading your posts. It always makes want to learn more. I think it is great.

A lot of people don't know the origin of the term "AIKIDO" The aikikai people here talk about how O'Sensei came up with the word aikido to describe his art, the way of love. The truth is back when Kancho was learning from him, it was budo, it had lots of names, but the important under pinning idea was budo. Then yes, this umbrella term Aikido was suggested by Hirai. This is why so many people think that his art, Korindo Aikido, is a style of Aikido, but it is a separate Aikido art.

I assume the use of the term Budo had a big influence on Kancho, hence the name change to Yoseikan Budo.

This is why I like to maintain the term Aikido, because when O'Sensei used the term Aikido, he was referring to his budo. Kano also said that Aikido was his ideal budo. So to me Aikido represents true budo. Hence the reason I use the term. Aikido wa Budo desu. Aikido is Budo!

When I visited Auge Sensei, he I showed him some of the basics we do that I did not see him doing. He said that they were old exercises they didn't do anymore. One of these is in the book I mentioned (My Method of Aikido Jujutsu). We basically do all of the techniques in this book, in the same way they are shown.

If you are not aware, the basic kata guruma sutemi actually comes from Mifune Sensei. This is the kneeling kata guruma, but you sacrifice onto your side throwing them over yourself.

The ganseki otoshi is a horrible technique to fall from. We have different ganseki otoshi in Yoseikan Aikido at my school. It is a shoulder throw with boths arms barred across the throwing shoulder. So it is like gyaku seoi and seoi nage together. Have you ever done this throw?

Regards,
I'm glad David and Graham see the importance of BUDO and the realities of Aikikai. This the only thing that I have been trying to point out. It makes me want to learn more also.

Basia Halliop
09-10-2007, 08:02 AM
Well, I'm in the Aikikai and I've never heard it referred to as 'the way of love' anywhere but on the internet. So far just about nothing you guys have said about the Aikikai has corresponded with my personal experience. This leads me to think maybe you should just focus on the kind of Aikido you know about and enjoy and what you enjoy about it and stop worrying so much about organizations that you don't know as much about, or using the name of an organization as a vague symbol of all that you don't like in the Aikido world.

You like what you do, don't you? So celebrate it.

darin
09-10-2007, 10:43 AM
I think Yosh taught hombu aikido when he came to Perth which explains the similarities to whats in your book. However, after he started his own dojo he developed his own style. For example, you know the Happoken we do is quite different to the Seifukai and the YWF. Yoshi added two rear and front groing kicks to finish off the kata simulating a rear bear hug defense and a front choke defense. He also included more pressure point techniques into the throws such as digging your middle finger under uke's ear lobe in kubi otoshi and mukae doashi. His version of shihonage is similar to Yoshinkan where on the secong movement you raise uke's elbow to a gyaku tenbin position applying pressure and protecting your face.

I think the major difference compared to what I saw in Shizuoka was the sharp movements of the hips in the throws. They argue that aikido should be one speed however Yoshi said that against a larger opponent you need to use short sharp movements to inflict greater pain.

darin
09-10-2007, 11:06 AM
Well, I'm in the Aikikai and I've never heard it referred to as 'the way of love' anywhere but on the internet. So far just about nothing you guys have said about the Aikikai has corresponded with my personal experience. This leads me to think maybe you should just focus on the kind of Aikido you know about and enjoy and what you enjoy about it and stop worrying so much about organizations that you don't know as much about, or using the name of an organization as a vague symbol of all that you don't like in the Aikido world.

You like what you do, don't you? So celebrate it.

Well said. I think even more important than martial effectiveness is the way aikido can change people's lives. If you ask most Japanese martial artists why they train they will answer "Seishin no tameni" which means to better myself spiritually and mentally. I know it helps me in my life and through it I have made some good friends along the way.

Basia Halliop
09-10-2007, 11:38 AM
I'm not sure I really agree with that. If I try to find something spiritual or life-changing about my study of Aikido, I suppose I can, but only in the same sense that there is some kind of spiritual growth in most things that you work for, i.e., getting a degree, climbing a cliff, learning something you didn't know before, getting in shape when you weren't previously, etc.

My point was rather that I didn't actually see for myself any of what Salim was suggesting was 'the Aikikai' (lots of talk of peace and harmony and sprituality, a suggestion that physical effectiveness was less important). Maybe I just know different people though.

lezard39
09-10-2007, 12:37 PM
When I visited Auge Sensei, he I showed him some of the basics we do that I did not see him doing. He said that they were old exercises they didn't do anymore. One of these is in the book I mentioned (My Method of Aikido Jujutsu). We basically do all of the techniques in this book, in the same way they are shown.



Graham, are you referring to kata or the te waza in the book, if you talking about te waza, I can say that we are still doing these techniques in Augé Sensei group; Kote Gaeshi, Shiho Nage, Yuki Chigaï, Tenbin Nage and Hatchi Mawashi. But we do not do these exactly the same as it’s showed in the book, like Kencho Sensei, Augé is trying to improve what he learned, so there’s always modification in the way of doing techniques. This book was writing in the end of 50’s so I’m pretty sure that even Minoru Mochizuki was not doing this Te waza exactly the same way. Augé Sensei put a lot of focus on kenkyo. In the clinics, he want’s us to do research and after that we demonstrate what we found. He don’t want us to be “little robot” and do Budo without thinking. It’s in progress all the time and always with the goal of doing more effective technique. By the way, I wanna say thanks you for the post about Yoseikan in Wiki, great job!

Regards

Olivier

lezard39
09-10-2007, 12:56 PM
David,

It’s always a pleasure to read your story about Yoseikan Hombu. VERRY INTERESTING! When are you gonna wrote a book about that??!

Olivier

darin
09-10-2007, 08:25 PM
I'm not sure I really agree with that. If I try to find something spiritual or life-changing about my study of Aikido, I suppose I can, but only in the same sense that there is some kind of spiritual growth in most things that you work for, i.e., getting a degree, climbing a cliff, learning something you didn't know before, getting in shape when you weren't previously, etc.

My point was rather that I didn't actually see for myself any of what Salim was suggesting was 'the Aikikai' (lots of talk of peace and harmony and sprituality, a suggestion that physical effectiveness was less important). Maybe I just know different people though.

I fully understood your point Basia. This thrread seems to be Yoseikan/aikibudo vs the rest. Aikikai does have a lot of fine aikidoists and just like Yoseikan, Yoshinkan and Tomiki aikido you find all levels of training intensity. Main thing is people enjoy what they are doing and they stick with it.

Anyway I don't think self defense alone is what keeps people coming back to training regardless of what martial arts they are doing.

wildaikido
09-11-2007, 07:27 AM
David,

It's always a pleasure to read your story about Yoseikan Hombu. VERRY INTERESTING! When are you gonna wrote a book about that??!

Olivier

I would buy it!

I wish I had more sources then just Aikido journal for what Mochizuki Kancho had to teach all of us :(

wildaikido
09-11-2007, 07:42 AM
Graham, are you referring to kata or the te waza in the book, if you talking about te waza, I can say that we are still doing these techniques in Augé Sensei group; Kote Gaeshi, Shiho Nage, Yuki Chigaï, Tenbin Nage and Hatchi Mawashi. But we do not do these exactly the same as it's showed in the book, like Kencho Sensei, Augé is trying to improve what he learned, so there's always modification in the way of doing techniques. This book was writing in the end of 50's so I'm pretty sure that even Minoru Mochizuki was not doing this Te waza exactly the same way. Augé Sensei put a lot of focus on kenkyo. In the clinics, he want's us to do research and after that we demonstrate what we found. He don't want us to be "little robot" and do Budo without thinking. It's in progress all the time and always with the goal of doing more effective technique.

I am actually referring to the exercise in the beginning of the book. It is the punch and block exercise. Like I said Auge Sensei told me that they don't do them any more. After my experience with Auge Sensei, I have taken exercises like this and modified them, and made new ones. We even do the happoken and sambo giri the way they are show in that book.

My teacher still teaches us the te waza that are in this book, not that he has this book, I found it by accident while trying to find Nihon Den Jujutsu. I was shocked to see what we do in a book, exercises and all. During randori in LA, these techniques would work. Especially the short method of applying kote gaeshi from a dosoku katate dore (gyaku gamae katate dori for those of you who do not do Yoseikan), this worked nicely, even with the senior students.

Basically Auge Sensei freed me from "kata" (fixed ways of doing techniques), and gave me the term I love, KENKYU! I hope one day he will understand how much I appreciate what he has done for me.

By the way, I wanna say thanks you for the post about Yoseikan in Wiki, great job!

Yoseikan Aikido is my passion. Hence, I added the article. It may have gotten out of control, but I couldn't resist.

Regards,

wildaikido
09-11-2007, 07:45 AM
I think the major difference compared to what I saw in Shizuoka was the sharp movements of the hips in the throws. They argue that aikido should be one speed however Yoshi said that against a larger opponent you need to use short sharp movements to inflict greater pain.

Who used there hips more, Yoshi, or those in Shizuoka?

Basically I learn't how to use my hips properly from Auge Sensei in LA. This was just from all the kihon. They completely changed the way I do all my techniques.

Regards,

darin
09-11-2007, 08:24 AM
I'd say Yoshi uses more hip movement than those in Shizuoka but then again they may be toning it down to decrease injuries. The YWF use a different kind of hip movement based on wave motion.

wildaikido
09-11-2007, 08:36 AM
I'd say Yoshi uses more hip movement than those in Shizuoka but then again they may be toning it down to decrease injuries. The YWF use a different kind of hip movement based on wave motion.

I would say that Auge sensei showed me (not personally, or directly) how to use the hip snap from Shotokan in my Aikido. This changed the way I did my techniques. I developed devastating power in my Yuki Chigai, which I expanded to improve my Shiho Nage. The same thing happened with my Robuse, Kote Gaeshi, etc.

Regards,

darin
09-12-2007, 12:54 AM
Yeah thats pretty much how Yosh did it. The other thing is to always keep uke off balance by maintaining tension/pain. Its an area people become lazy with. I don't do it so much now because it can cause serious injuries. Some of Yoshi's old students still have bad wrists and elbows.

wildaikido
09-12-2007, 04:58 AM
Yeah thats pretty much how Yosh did it. The other thing is to always keep uke off balance by maintaining tension/pain. Its an area people become lazy with. I don't do it so much now because it can cause serious injuries. Some of Yoshi's old students still have bad wrists and elbows.

I don't think I would call it Yoseikan if the kuzushi was not done by attacking a joint. Mochizuki Kancho said this is the way Yoseikan is more closely related to Daito Ryu then other Aikido styles. This is best seen in Tenkan Kote Gaeshi. Almost everyone I have seen do this, pulls uke around the corner (which does not work). Where as we in Yoseikan lever uke's elbow on our side (which is most effective).

Regards,

darin
09-12-2007, 05:58 AM
Its interesting Graham that not all Yoseikan groups do it that way. I never saw it in the hombu or on the 2 set Mochizuki's videos or the YWF. The YWF use a larger movement and kind of drag the wrist instead of turning it. They believe that it prevents nage from being hit. Probably works in their system but we have found when uke tries to hit he will usually relax his trapped arm allowing us to twist his wrist. Also dragging or doing a large movement gives uke a chance of countering the technique as he can regain his balance. To my understanding as you progress with aikido your circles become smaller.

wildaikido
09-12-2007, 08:15 AM
In those videos it is Kaoru Sugiyama Sensei who demonstrates the Kote Gaeshi. This is Auge Sensei's wife. I can't comment on how she does the Kote Gaeshi not being how the Hombu did it (as I never got to train at the Yoseikan or With Kancho). But I can say, Auge Sensei did it with a rather devistating snap to the elbow with a turn of the hip. I can also Say that Kaoru Sugiyama Sensei did study another style of Aikido first, which I believe she had a black belt in, and this may be the source of her Kote Gaeshi. I will try and find the reference.

Regards,

darin
09-12-2007, 08:28 AM
The Japanese guy from the hombu who trained at my dojo also did kotegaeshi wthout the snap to the elbow. Maybe you can find out from Auge Sensei why the big difference between the Seifukai and what he and Yosh are/were doing. I know Ross was doing exactly whats on those video tapes when I visited his dojo.

wildaikido
09-12-2007, 08:36 AM
The Japanese guy from the hombu who trained at my dojo also did kotegaeshi wthout the snap to the elbow. Maybe you can find out from Auge Sensei why the big difference between the Seifukai and what he and Yosh are/were doing. I know Ross was doing exactly whats on those video tapes when I visited his dojo.

Next time I am there I will ask.

I found the reference. In Auge Sensei's interview on Aikido Journal, he states that his wife was a black belt from another Aikido school.

Regards,

PS I remember Ross had a very Yoshinkan style Kote Gaeshi, with the flip and all, when I was there. So when I did the Kote Gaeshi to throw them backwards, the students did not know what I was doing.

lezard39
09-12-2007, 10:07 AM
Next time I am there I will ask.

I found the reference. In Auge Sensei's interview on Aikido Journal, he states that his wife was a black belt from another Aikido school.

Regards,

PS I remember Ross had a very Yoshinkan style Kote Gaeshi, with the flip and all, when I was there. So when I did the Kote Gaeshi to throw them backwards, the students did not know what I was doing.

Hello Graham and Darin,

In our dojo, most of the time we did the kote gaeshi with the snap of the elbows and a irimi senkai, but sometime depending on the reaction (foot) of uke or depending of the kind of grab, we just pass directly in front of him and throw uke with a 180 degree hip turn and uke need to do a front Ukemi in passing above his grabbed arm or we throw backwards if uke is a beginner. That’s Omote for us, but we also did Ura variation in doing a permutation of foots and turning, dragging Uke hand instead of pushing on it. I don’t remember how Sugiyama Sensei did it in the second Yoseikan sogo video, I’m gonna take a look tonight but anyway it was done long time ago… :)

wildaikido
09-12-2007, 10:10 AM
Hello Graham and Darin,

In our dojo, most of the time we did the kote gaeshi with the snap of the elbows and a irimi senkai, but sometime depending on the reaction (foot) of uke or depending of the kind of grab, we just pass directly in front of him and throw uke with a 180 degree hip turn and uke need to do a front Ukemi in passing above his grabbed arm or we throw backwards if uke is a beginner. That's Omote for us, but we also did Ura variation in doing a permutation of foots and turning, dragging Uke hand instead of pushing on it. I don't remember how Sugiyama Sensei did it in the second Yoseikan sogo video, I'm gonna take a look tonight but anyway it was done long time ago… :)

I thought Auge Sensei was the one who did the demo of Kote Gaeshi. So I quickly checked the DVD. On the slow motion replay, you can clearly see that Sugiyama Sensei does the irimi senkai, without any pressure on the elbow.

Regard,

darin
09-12-2007, 11:11 AM
In the video you can see that robuse is done without the hip and arm snap. Irmi nage is done straight but lacks any "Seagal" in it. Sorry couldn't find a better word! :) Kataha is done without pressuring the elbow. Shiho nage has no balance breaking.

It would have been great if they did everything more dynamic like in the randori. Actually even that was a dissapointment as they showed a few throws then zoomed up on an ornament. I enjoyed Kancho's speech at the end. The kata demo is also valuable resource for us instructors.

darin
09-12-2007, 11:30 AM
Next time I am there I will ask.

I found the reference. In Auge Sensei's interview on Aikido Journal, he states that his wife was a black belt from another Aikido school.

Regards,

PS I remember Ross had a very Yoshinkan style Kote Gaeshi, with the flip and all, when I was there. So when I did the Kote Gaeshi to throw them backwards, the students did not know what I was doing.

I can't remember if I did kotegaeshi when I trained at his dojo but I do remember doing kataha and shihonage the same way as whats on the Yoseikan videos.

bob_stra
09-13-2007, 10:21 AM
I don't think I would call it Yoseikan if the kuzushi was not done by attacking a joint. Mochizuki Kancho said this is the way Yoseikan is more closely related to Daito Ryu then other Aikido styles. This is best seen in Tenkan Kote Gaeshi. Almost everyone I have seen do this, pulls uke around the corner (which does not work). Where as we in Yoseikan lever uke's elbow on our side (which is most effective).

Regards,

I would imagine this would be quite injurious?

darin
09-13-2007, 10:26 AM
Yes it could be injurious to the elbow joint if done forceful however I have seen more injured wrists from other forms of kotegaeshi especially resulted from where uke still has his balance and nage wrenches his wrist.

bob_stra
09-13-2007, 10:35 AM
I've seen an intersting variation of kote-gashi when in the wrist is folded back and force is applied along the direction of the forearm and downwards into the balance weakspot (vs against the wrist)

What has been your experience with that one? It seems more 'aiki' than using pain compliance / threat of injury to achieve the goal

(Sorry if that's O/T)

darin
09-13-2007, 10:41 AM
You mean the wrist is rolled back towards uke and not to the side? If so, it works well against a closed fist. If the wrist is kept low it can cause a lot of pain.

bob_stra
09-13-2007, 10:55 AM
Yep - that's the one. Is there a name for that variation?

Anatomically, it seems like it would be less injurious than the wrist crank and 'elbow on hip wrist crank' versions.

Bronson
09-13-2007, 11:07 AM
Hey Bob,

What you're describing is the standard version of kotegaeshi for Seidokan aikido; we just call it kotegaeshi ;) I believe (some) Ki Society dojo may call that variation kotemoroshi ...but don't quote me.

Bronson

p.s. One of the "tricks" that I've found with this version is to bring uke's elbow under their hand instead of bringing their hand over their elbow. Makes a world of difference :)

wildaikido
09-13-2007, 11:31 AM
I believe some people use the term Kote Otoshi for this version.

Regards,

darin
09-13-2007, 11:39 AM
Yep - that's the one. Is there a name for that variation?

Anatomically, it seems like it would be less injurious than the wrist crank and 'elbow on hip wrist crank' versions.

I have found that it causes uke to crumple. Yeah I'd say its less injurious than the other version and works better against a karate reverse punch or have short arms. You sort of follow the hand back in after the punch.

wildaikido
09-13-2007, 11:48 AM
I have found that it causes uke to crumple. Yeah I'd say its less injurious than the other version and works better against a karate reverse punch or have short arms. You sort of follow the hand back in after the punch.

It is also great for a recoiling punch that you get to late.

grondahl
09-13-2007, 11:50 AM
It's probably a confusion in how I read the description, but that sounds more or less exactly how my instructors have done kotegaeshi.

The more or less comes from my understanding that the balance weakspot should be located somewhere just behind and below the elbow.

I've seen an intersting variation of kote-gashi when in the wrist is folded back and force is applied along the direction of the forearm and downwards into the balance weakspot (vs against the wrist)

What has been your experience with that one? It seems more 'aiki' than using pain compliance / threat of injury to achieve the goal

(Sorry if that's O/T)

wildaikido
09-13-2007, 12:02 PM
It's probably a confusion in how I read the description, but that sounds more or less exactly how my instructors have done kotegaeshi.

The more or less comes from my understanding that the balance weakspot should be located somewhere just behind and below the elbow.

The Kote Gaeshi done in many jujutsu schools, including Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, is done by twisting the wrist to the side, in front of uke (this results in uke flipping to the front and side). I can't comment on Daito Ryu, but I think the Kote Otoshi version of Kote Gaeshi is novel to Aikido (this results in uke rolling backwards).

Regards,

grondahl
09-13-2007, 12:13 PM
How would you compare your Kote otoshi to the kote gaeshi done by Saito sensei in this youtube vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-ma09rENYM
The kotegaeshi is between 04:43 and 05:05

wildaikido
09-13-2007, 01:09 PM
How would you compare your Kote otoshi to the kote gaeshi done by Saito sensei in this youtube vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-ma09rENYM
The kotegaeshi is between 04:43 and 05:05

It is not my Kote Otoshi, I think Tohei came up with that term.

I do kote gaeshi with an irimi tenkan, levering ukes arm against my side to make him move (to unbalance) then rotate away from him, applying the rotation of my hips to the rotation his wrist, forcing him sideways, while I am basically infront of him.

Having done a little Iwama, I can say that the Kote Gaeshi Omote is in between the two versions I described above. Again I don't know about Kote gaeshi in Daito Ryu, so I can't comment on the origin of this kote gaeshi.

Regards,

Ron Tisdale
09-13-2007, 03:06 PM
The bigest distinction I noticed with kote gaeshi in Main line was that you never raise the hand during application.

Best,
Ron

Bronson
09-15-2007, 10:44 PM
The bigest distinction I noticed with kote gaeshi in Main line was that you never raise the hand during application.

Best,
Ron

Just to be clear: in main line Daito ryu the hand being kotegaeshi-ed isn't raised or lifted during the technique?

This is interesting to me because in Seidokan we (at least my instructor) also keep the hand low ...at least we're supposed to :D

Bronson

wildaikido
09-16-2007, 02:22 AM
Just to be clear: in main line Daito ryu the hand being kotegaeshi-ed isn't raised or lifted during the technique?

This is interesting to me because in Seidokan we (at least my instructor) also keep the hand low ...at least we're supposed to :D

Bronson

I would hope that this is the way that most people do there Kote Gaeshi. We do not raise the hand in kote Gaseshi, in Yoseikan.

I know the reason they raise the hand in omote kote gaeshi in Iwama, is a safety aspect for the short movement. If the proper movement was done at full speed and force, there would be not chance to fall, it would result in significant damage to the joint.

Regards,

Don_Modesto
09-16-2007, 02:25 PM
Just to be clear: in main line Daito ryu the hand being kotegaeshi-ed isn't raised or lifted during the technique?I think most people "preach" not to lift, but then they turn around and lift.

Check it out. Doesn't Kondo do this in that instructional DVD of his with the complete 1-2-3 KAJO? He breaks during Amano's demo and instructs. Derek Steel is interpreting and tells us not to lift, and then when Kondo goes fast, he lifts. (Is it only me?)

I seem to recall this with lots of other teachers, too.

wildaikido
09-17-2007, 09:21 AM
I think most people "preach" not to lift, but then they turn around and lift.

Check it out. Doesn't Kondo do this in that instructional DVD of his with the complete 1-2-3 KAJO? He breaks during Amano's demo and instructs. Derek Steel is interpreting and tells us not to lift, and then when Kondo goes fast, he lifts. (Is it only me?)

I seem to recall this with lots of other teachers, too.

As I said before, I think this is a safety aspect. I noticed you said "Kondo goes fast... he lifts." This kind of proves the point that it was probably for safety. Well, I think so :)

Regards,

L. Camejo
09-17-2007, 05:21 PM
Interesting points on the lifting during kotegaeshi.

Though instructed not to lift too high normally, I've found that when applied against serious resistance, the larger the arc the more effective the kotegaeshi, especially if Tori is the smaller person.

Just an observation.
LC:ai::ki:

Don_Modesto
09-18-2007, 01:01 PM
Though instructed not to lift too high normally, I've found that when applied against serious resistance, the larger the arc the more effective the kotegaeshi, especially if Tori is the smaller person. I find about the opposite. The larger the motion, the more time UKE has to escape. When I drop UKE quickly into a hole, such as the rear SHIKAKU in KOTE GAESHI TENKAN, they are half thrown before we even get to the wrist twisting.

That is, I find that folks resist the twisting and won't be led into SHIKAKU from that. OTOH, from a position of very poor balance, they can't fight the twisting.

(I saw this, the primacy of KUZUSHI, recently teaching KAITEN NAGE from wrist grab. My students were doing this fancy little curlycue after the TENKAN with their hands ending up off to the side. UKE wasn't really retaining balance, per se, NAGE was handing it back to them. When they cut their hand low, back to their own center, however, UKE was sprawling immediately and the KAITEN NAGE was an afterthought, as I see with some of the older SHIHAN (watch some Yamaguchi vids; you'll see what I'm talking about in the Expo demos of Ikeda, Gleason and Stickles, too). The SHIHAN don't really seem to have decided on a technique sometimes until after KUZUSHI.)

grondahl
09-19-2007, 02:01 AM
I find that the larger motion makes it easier to maintain kuzushi and also that the "stretch" of the larger motion helps to keep me out of range for ukes fists.

L. Camejo
09-23-2007, 03:56 PM
I find that the larger motion makes it easier to maintain kuzushi and also that the "stretch" of the larger motion helps to keep me out of range for ukes fists.I've found this as well. That stretching effect also helps the throw to start affecting the body and posture well before the wrist is actually twisted.

Some of my Jujutsu pals use the short tight twisting movement but under full resistance unless the person is much bigger than I it simply does not work.

LC:ai::ki:

wildaikido
09-24-2007, 02:40 AM
I guess this is true. But I still like to think of the point that Kote Gaeshi is not really a throw, if done full speed full force, you are just going to smash the wrist, resulting in them going down.

Regards,

grondahl
09-24-2007, 02:57 AM
Why are they going to go down if you smash their wrist? And: Are you going to be able to smash their wrist if you dont got kuzushi?

I tend to think that kotegeashi is more of a drop than a throw.

PeterR
09-24-2007, 03:12 AM
Why are they going to go down if you smash their wrist? And: Are you going to be able to smash their wrist if you dont got kuzushi?

I tend to think that kotegeashi is more of a drop than a throw.

Well I don't think the larger or smaller movement really relates to kuzushi but I do believe that kotegeashi will not work unless balance is first broken. This is especially true when you are dealing with an opponent who knows all about kotegeishi and does not want to go down.

The large or small movement that is part of the actual throw depends very much on the body positioning achieved with the kuzushi and also on relative size of the tori and uke. I think the ideal situation is small movement at hip level but if they are two close this might not be the best way.

I find that the larger motion makes it easier to maintain kuzushi and also that the "stretch" of the larger motion helps to keep me out of range for ukes fists.

Yes I like this statement especially maintain kuzushi. Not sure if this is what Peter meant but to effect kuzushi with the kotegeashi itself is next to impossible.

L. Camejo
09-24-2007, 09:27 AM
to effect kuzushi with the kotegeashi itself is next to impossible.Quite true.

wildaikido
09-24-2007, 10:12 AM
In this thread we have previously discussed the kuzushi used in Yoseikan's Kote Gaeshi, that is the leverage of the elbow against the body. So kuzushi is not the issue.

The shock to an attacker, in a self defence situation, due to the sevier damage to the wrist would result in some type of after effect. When I disolcated my shoulder, I went done. It was one of the most painful things I have ever experienced!

L. Camejo
09-24-2007, 11:38 AM
The shock to an attacker, in a self defence situation, due to the sevier damage to the wrist would result in some type of after effect. When I disolcated my shoulder, I went done. It was one of the most painful things I have ever experienced!This depends quite a bit on the person receiving the joint lock. I've either witnessed or gotten first hand accounts of folks who have dislocated joints and even shattered bones and keep coming. These folks range from those amped up on PCP or adrenaline to people who are very very drunk. The damage happens but any "stopping" effect is minor once they're under the influence since the pain receptors don't have a distracting effect.

My only point is that one should not depend on pain compliance or destruction of something like a wrist to stop a serious attacker. Outside of those with chemically induced abnormal tolerances to pain, there are also very many self defence and martial art systems that train one to compartmentalize and mentally move past things like pain until the immediate threat is dispatched.

In the case of kuzushi, if the person is at least immobilized on the ground (one result of being taken completely off balance with something like kotegaeshi) one has many more options to end the conflict imho.

Just some thoughts.

David Orange
09-24-2007, 12:07 PM
This depends quite a bit on the person receiving the joint lock. I've either witnessed or gotten first hand accounts of folks who have dislocated joints and even shattered bones and keep coming. These folks range from those amped up on PCP or adrenaline to people who are very very drunk....My only point is that one should not depend on pain compliance or destruction of something like a wrist to stop a serious attacker....In the case of kuzushi, if the person is at least immobilized on the ground (one result of being taken completely off balance with something like kotegaeshi) one has many more options to end the conflict imho.

Really true. But the particular thing Graham mentioned was " the kuzushi used in Yoseikan's Kote Gaeshi, that is the leverage of the elbow against the body". This is applied when tori is turning and leading uke around him. Mochizuki Sensei didn't like to depend on uke following and he would "bar" the elbow against his ribcage as he turned to force uke to follow. He would even sometimes demonstrate "jerking" or "snapping" the elbow against the ribcage to encourage uke's compliance, which was usually eagerly given at that point. And this set-up could also be used for other of the outward-turning arm techniques (soto nejiri ho) such as ude garami, as well, if they began with tori's full body turn-around.

On the other hand, we didn't usually practice the arm-barring against the ribs during keiko at the hombu. We were aware of it but since it was so hard on uke, we kept it in reserve for actual self-defense applicaiton.

But as far as the kote gaeshi technique, I think you need good kuzushi before applying that to make it work as it should, and that the kote gaeshi should be applied at hip level with uke's arm and stance well extended.

FWIW.

David

ChrisMoses
09-24-2007, 12:24 PM
This depends quite a bit on the person receiving the joint lock. I've either witnessed or gotten first hand accounts of folks who have dislocated joints and even shattered bones and keep coming.

Toby Threadgill told the story a few years ago of doing a finger-lock on "Big" Tony Alvarez. He asked Tony if he had the lock, Tony replied that he did, but then smiled and said, "...but I'd lose that finger to kill ya..." ;)

I also recall the story of a certain impetuous youth who, when challenged by Bernie Lau to get out of one of his finger locks, dislocated his own finger and popped him. :crazy:

Pain compliance is great, but always works best when part of a movement which affects the body structure. Kuzushi is da bomb, doesn't matter if it's judo, jujutsu or aikido/budo.

David Orange
09-24-2007, 12:50 PM
Toby Threadgill told the story a few years ago of doing a finger-lock on "Big" Tony Alvarez. He asked Tony if he had the lock, Tony replied that he did, but then smiled and said, "...but I'd lose that finger to kill ya..." ;)

Mochizuki Sensei didn't much care for pressure point techniques because "they work on some people but they don't work at all on others." Which is like the finger techniques, I guess, but I used to know a little man in Birmingham who could make anybody dance with his finger techniques. Anyway, I never saw anyone who could say anything but "Okay! Okay! Okay!" when he got them. That was Alex Marshall, a real phenomenon. I was never able to see him "get" the technique, but I never saw him fail to get it. And when he did, the recipient always lost structure, balance, pride and dignity in complying with Mr. Marshall, who would stand there casually, saying "What's wrong? What's wrong?" and the other guy would be jumping around saying, "Okay! Okay! Okay!"

There must have been some people who could stand his technique, but I never saw one. And he was not yoseikan, by the way, but just a general jujutsuka. Wish he was still with us.

David

L. Camejo
09-24-2007, 01:27 PM
Mochizuki Sensei didn't much care for pressure point techniques because "they work on some people but they don't work at all on others." Which is like the finger techniques, I guess, but I used to know a little man in Birmingham who could make anybody dance with his finger techniques. Anyway, I never saw anyone who could say anything but "Okay! Okay! Okay!" when he got them. That was Alex Marshall, a real phenomenon. I was never able to see him "get" the technique, but I never saw him fail to get it. And when he did, the recipient always lost structure, balance, pride and dignity in complying with Mr. Marshall, who would stand there casually, saying "What's wrong? What's wrong?" and the other guy would be jumping around saying, "Okay! Okay! Okay!"

There must have been some people who could stand his technique, but I never saw one. And he was not yoseikan, by the way, but just a general jujutsuka. Wish he was still with us.

David
Wow, small world.

The Jujutsu style I belong to and instruct is Mr. Marshall's system, Akayama Ryu (http://www.akayamaryu.com). My primary instructor is the person he left in charge of the system, Sensei Mark Barlow.

What you said above is quite interesting since it is in Akayama Ryu that I learnt that when dealing with pain one should compartmentalize, focus, move through the pain and take out the attacker. If this means dislocating something or breaking something to get the advantage, then so be it. It is one of the methods we use to counter most Aiki waza joint locks if the technique is already applied. This really aids in training the mind how to focus the body on its objective instead of becoming distracted. I've applied this sort of imperturbable mind concept to our Aikido training as well, hence my earlier post.

I've heard many stories of Mr. Marshall's prowess. The man was a legend. I guess it is not surprising since one of the methods he studied deeply was Tomiki Aikido under Karl Geis. He was also inheritor of a Japanese koryu jujutsu method if I am not mistaken. But again, if the person was dancing with the finger lock then their mind was already taken by Mr. Marshall's waza and they were unwilling or unable to work through the pain and find a counter. Of course, this may have just made things worse for them.

Interesting points.

LC:ai::ki:

wildaikido
09-24-2007, 02:53 PM
This depends quite a bit on the person receiving the joint lock. I've either witnessed or gotten first hand accounts of folks who have dislocated joints and even shattered bones and keep coming. These folks range from those amped up on PCP or adrenaline to people who are very very drunk. The damage happens but any "stopping" effect is minor once they're under the influence since the pain receptors don't have a distracting effect.

My only point is that one should not depend on pain compliance or destruction of something like a wrist to stop a serious attacker. Outside of those with chemically induced abnormal tolerances to pain, there are also very many self defence and martial art systems that train one to compartmentalize and mentally move past things like pain until the immediate threat is dispatched.

In the case of kuzushi, if the person is at least immobilized on the ground (one result of being taken completely off balance with something like kotegaeshi) one has many more options to end the conflict imho.

Just some thoughts.

Yes Larry! Hence the reason I said in a self defence situation. It is quite pointless to say pain compliance won't work on people high on PCP. Because it is just LOGICAL COMMON SENSE!

The fact is that pain will make the majority of people comply. If the persons intention is more then just to cause you pain, then, you should be doing more than causing them pain. You don't hold someone who is trying to kill you in a pain compliance pin! No one should need to be told that!

However, someone who just wants to shove you around, maybe at something like a party or sporting event, then a finger lock, will be perfect. I have done this. After all, you don't want to hurt someone you know through friends.

With regards to the Kote Gaeshi damaging the wrist, the ideal application of this is group situation, involving a knife etc. This may then serve as a deterrent to the others.

Regards,

David Orange
09-24-2007, 03:48 PM
Wow, small world.

The Jujutsu style I belong to and instruct is Mr. Marshall's system, Akayama Ryu (http://www.akayamaryu.com). My primary instructor is the person he left in charge of the system, Sensei Mark Barlow.

Really? It is a small world. The lady I bought my house from is from Trinidad. She'd been living up here with her husband, whom she met in Trinidad because he was working in construction management and she came back up with him. A few years after he died, she sold her house (to me) and moved back to Trinidad.

But how did you get involved with Akayama Ryu?

I've heard many stories of Mr. Marshall's prowess. The man was a legend.

Even when he was alive! He was well known in these parts, especially among police officers and all judo and aikido people. Not so well known among the general karate set, but all the old-timers and hard-liners knew him and respected him. There was no one like him. He was the most impressive non-Asian martial artist I ever met.

...if the person was dancing with the finger lock then their mind was already taken by Mr. Marshall's waza and they were unwilling or unable to work through the pain and find a counter. Of course, this may have just made things worse for them.

As I said, I could never see him setting up the technique and I could never prevent him from applying it. And I never saw anyone who looked like they were even thinking of trying to think of a way to get out of it. They just complied.

But at the same time, he would have you laughing because he would be laughing. And you didn't feel that he was laughing at you but encouraging you to keep a positive mind. And that made him loveable, so you didn't mind taking those techniques. It reminded me of Kyoichi Murai, now tenth dan and head of Seifukai--the "old yoseikan" group at the old yoseikan hombu in Shizuoka. Murai Sensei often laughed like that as he did spectacular things. And he was even smaller than Mr. Marshall. Two very spectacular and admirable men.

Best to you.

David

L. Camejo
09-27-2007, 01:47 PM
Yes Larry! Hence the reason I said in a self defence situation. It is quite pointless to say pain compliance won't work on people high on PCP. Because it is just LOGICAL COMMON SENSE!Not sure why you require caps to get your point across, but the reality is that common sense is not as common as some may think. Are you saying that one does not get into self defence situations with people who are intoxicated? You don't hold someone who is trying to kill you in a pain compliance pin! No one should need to be told that!Why not? I thought the philosophy espoused in Aikido is to protect the attacker. The "kill him if he tries to kill me" is a fear-driven response that is the antithesis of Aikido imho (although it may be a necessary one sometimes). If one has the level of skill to control the situation I don't see why one should not. It would make for interesting post-assault legalities when asked why one decided to use excessive force if they had the situation under control at a certain point. Many talk about killing in "self defence" without realizing the ramifications involved at many levels. This is part of why martial arts are not always the best means of studying actual self defence, unless ones instructor can impart knowledge in these areas also.
someone who just wants to shove you around, maybe at something like a party or sporting event, then a finger lock, will be perfect. I have done this. After all, you don't want to hurt someone you know through friends.I'd think if one were dealing with a friend one with sufficient training would not respond at all and simply walk away. What you describe above is not a self defence situation requireing a direct physical response imho.

With regards to the Kote Gaeshi damaging the wrist, the ideal application of this is group situation, involving a knife etc. This may then serve as a deterrent to the others.Interesting..

LC:ai::ki:

L. Camejo
09-27-2007, 02:03 PM
But how did you get involved with Akayama Ryu?Hi David,

Actually Aikiweb is partially to blame. Here is where I first "met" Sensei Barlow. We have a common thread, possessing dan grade in Shodokan Aikido and having links to the J.A.A. He and other high level yudansha visited Trinidad some years ago, unknowingly invited by one of our local McDojo instructors. Let's just say that their Jujutsu seminar at our Aikido dojo sparked my interest even more in JJ (at the time I was considering training in a JJ style anyway) and it offered them the opportunity to train with some "authentic" budoka as well. We've been great friends ever since. The system is one of the best I've come across and the Aiki waza blends nicely with my Aikido.Even when he was alive! He was well known in these parts, especially among police officers and all judo and aikido people. Not so well known among the general karate set, but all the old-timers and hard-liners knew him and respected him. There was no one like him. He was the most impressive non-Asian martial artist I ever met.He was. I still get the old war stories from Sensei Barlow and I keep remembering wishing to be a fly on a wall whenever MR. Marshall got "challenged".As I said, I could never see him setting up the technique and I could never prevent him from applying it. And I never saw anyone who looked like they were even thinking of trying to think of a way to get out of it. They just complied.To me, this is one of the elusive qualities of good Aiki waza. It just happens to you and you don't actually understand how you got into that situation since there is nothing one detects to defend against.But at the same time, he would have you laughing because he would be laughing. And you didn't feel that he was laughing at you but encouraging you to keep a positive mind. And that made him loveable, so you didn't mind taking those techniques. It reminded me of Kyoichi Murai, now tenth dan and head of Seifukai--the "old yoseikan" group at the old yoseikan hombu in Shizuoka. Murai Sensei often laughed like that as he did spectacular things. And he was even smaller than Mr. Marshall. Two very spectacular and admirable men.Agreed. I've often found that the guys with the most skill to really hurt you at will are often the most relaxed, cheery, happy people around. It makes sense - without fear there is no tension and ill will towards another I guess.

Best to you as well.

LC:ai::ki:

darin
09-28-2007, 05:21 AM
In this thread we have previously discussed the kuzushi used in Yoseikan's Kote Gaeshi, that is the leverage of the elbow against the body. So kuzushi is not the issue.

The shock to an attacker, in a self defence situation, due to the sevier damage to the wrist would result in some type of after effect. When I disolcated my shoulder, I went done. It was one of the most painful things I have ever experienced!

Timing is very important and I think its best to manipulate the wrist when your opponent's hand is relaxed. Although we have the elbow leverage in kotegaeshi we try to also pull or guide the opponent so he is off balance.

I had a student a few years back who busted up his shoulder on a poorly done hip throw. From his screams he definitely was in a lot of pain. I think in a self defense situation a full power throw onto a hard surface should stop most attackers.

darin
09-28-2007, 05:27 AM
Mochizuki Sensei didn't much care for pressure point techniques because "they work on some people but they don't work at all on others." Which is like the finger techniques.

David

This is very interesting because Unno sensei always taught pressure points. I wonder if he picked them up from Sanno Sensei or Murai Sensei. Was there much variety back then in the hombu or did everyone learn the same thing?

Flintstone
09-28-2007, 10:05 AM
The ganseki otoshi is a horrible technique to fall from. We have different ganseki otoshi in Yoseikan Aikido at my school. It is a shoulder throw with boths arms barred across the throwing shoulder. So it is like gyaku seoi and seoi nage together. Have you ever done this throw?
We do this throw as part of our kihon in Roland Hernaez's Nihon Taijutsu. But then again, Nihon Taijutsu is a descendant of Mochizuki's Yoseikan. I don't know the name of the technique (maybe you can help me here), but it's certainly not Ganseki Otoshi. What I understand for Ganseki Otoshi is the Iwama Ryu version of it, with uke's back laying on tori's shoulders.

Best,
Alex.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-28-2007, 05:58 PM
We do this throw as part of our kihon in Roland Hernaez's Nihon Taijutsu. But then again, Nihon Taijutsu is a descendant of Mochizuki's Yoseikan. I don't know the name of the technique (maybe you can help me here), but it's certainly not Ganseki Otoshi. What I understand for Ganseki Otoshi is the Iwama Ryu version of it, with uke's back laying on tori's shoulders.

Best,
Alex.

I think you're referring to Yama Arashi (http://www.jujutsulaval.com/images/Yamaarashi.gif).

Daito Ryu Ganseki Otoshi looks like this:
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcNcRjqr9k

And Aikido Ganseki Otoshi looks like this:
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=A7YUO1WBYgg

Flintstone
09-29-2007, 07:57 AM
I think you're referring to Yama Arashi (http://www.jujutsulaval.com/images/Yamaarashi.gif).
Actually the waza you linked here also exists in Nihon Taijutsu's kihon and we call it Yama Arashi too.

Daito Ryu Ganseki Otoshi looks like this:
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcNcRjqr9k
Yes, this is the technique I was refering to in our kihon. And performed in the very same manner (except for the lack of kicking atemi in the Daito Ryu video and that NTJ version ends throwing uke over tori's back - kind of scary!).

Thanks, Demetrio, for the link to Daito Ryu. I should have remembered watching it in the Hiden Mokuroku videos.