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Don_Modesto
08-27-2007, 02:50 PM
...nabe?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L0dFcnux58&mode=related&search=

crbateman
08-27-2007, 03:51 PM
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sprachlos/speechless-smiley-003.gif No disrespect, but I just can't fathom some demos... Hard to watch, even if you been there and done that...

Ivan Sekularac
08-27-2007, 04:08 PM
My opinion only but... no way this is for real... this is BS if I ever saw one... this is the reason other people claim that Aikido doesn't work...

If somebody is running at you, unless you use firearms, throw something at him or avoid him he will make physical contact with you...

No one can wave and get his opponent down... O'Sensei couldn't do it and no other Aikidoka can do it as well... maybe Obi Wan Kenobi can do it but he is in the Galaxy far, far away...

raul rodrigo
08-27-2007, 04:43 PM
"The Force can have a strong influence on the weakminded."

Mark Uttech
08-27-2007, 04:59 PM
Hopefully Youtube is a shortlived fad.

In gassho,

Mark

Mark Freeman
08-27-2007, 05:08 PM
My opinion only but... no way this is for real... this is BS if I ever saw one... this is the reason other people claim that Aikido doesn't work...

If somebody is running at you, unless you use firearms, throw something at him or avoid him he will make physical contact with you...

No one can wave and get his opponent down... O'Sensei couldn't do it and no other Aikidoka can do it as well... maybe Obi Wan Kenobi can do it but he is in the Galaxy far, far away...

There are plenty of video clips of O Sensei dispensing of ukes with no touch. A particular demo of him seemingly bouncing a uke straight back from a running push to the chest with little or no touch, has been discussed at length on these fora before.

It is very difficult to completely disbelieve something you haven't experienced yourself. I have been on the recieving end of aikido teachers that can do similar aikido to that as seen in the demo. I wouldn't consider myself to be someone who would spend 15 years persuing something fake.

I practice aikido as a search for the 'truth in the moment. Can I maintain compete mind/body/spirit co-ordination throught each encounter / exercise. Some aikidoka lean towards the 'physical' aspects of aikido, their movements become clean and very efficient, their control precise and powerfull, I see this in the yoshinkan practitioners I see on vid, much of which I find really impressive. Some aikidoka explore the mind/ki side of aikido, their practice is softer, more co-operative, more leading, more following, it leads to the kind of aikido that the more physically favoured see as 'less effective'. But I'd hardly call someone like Tohei sensei 'not effective' and he was the biggest proponent of the 'ki' side of aikido.

I'd be interested to hear from any akidoka who have taken ukemi (or knows of someone who has) for this particular sensei (Watanabe?), to give us a more personal perspective.

I agree with Clark though, it's hard to watch, even if you've been there and done that;)

regards,

Mark

David Humm
08-27-2007, 05:39 PM
I think this is the same guy who accepted the challenge from a MMA guy and got his ass handed to him, I'll see if I can find the link

mathewjgano
08-27-2007, 05:39 PM
Devil's advocate...

practice for tracking and responsiveness? Mental connection is important to work on as much as physical connection. Recently I heard sensei Barrish describe the importance of neurological development...maybe that's the intent here.
If the explicit intent is to force someone to move through some "force push," like some marionette on a string, then I'd be steadfastly skeptical. But if the point is to connect mentally and still move with responsiveness and balance, then how is it any different than practicing rolls or breakfalls by yourself?
...my two bits...
Cheers!

Keith Larman
08-27-2007, 05:41 PM
Well, I've found myself laying down after something seemingly silly a few times as well. I think it is important to realize that some aspects of aikido are about "leading the mind" and there are lots of "mind games" you can play to work a person. I've been on the receiving end a few times. One of our sensei in particular is really good as very subtle leads and diversions. That's all fair game IMHO and in many ways essential to good aikido. Mind games. Unsettling not only their physical balance but their mental balance as well.

But at some point cooperative training becomes much more like group hypnosis and people start to do all sorts of really odd stuff like that in the video. The problem is that these sort of prolonged, long distance, no touch, make 'em levitate and flip themselves over kinda stuff is just way too much. But maybe a better way to look at that is that they're showing what long term mind games are like. Do it enough and you start to believe it...

Regardless -- when I see videos like that my first reaction is "send me in, coach!". And if the person doing that can throw someone from outside the group giving a sincere attack that way, well, that would be just amazing.

But like I said, I've felt an atemi coming and reacted defensively to it just to find it really wasn't there and was more of a hand wave. I've also found myself overextending to "get that target" and realized way too late I'd "fallen for it" and I never got it. So it became a sort of no-touch throw.

Beyond that I've yet to feel the kind of stuff those videos seem to imply. Maybe I don't hang out with the right Jedi... ;)

All opinions are solely mine. Blame me.

And I have that link to the fella getting a "ass-handing" somewhere here on my system if you need it...

David Humm
08-27-2007, 05:45 PM
Here are two links on YT

The first is the challange this guy accepted

The second is of him in his own dojo, footage from 1min,12sec is the interesting bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxb0PCBV0vk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc

Keith Larman
08-27-2007, 05:45 PM
Found the one I had. Yanagi Ryuken is his name. Same sort of wave the hand ki master. Here he is with a karate fella. The irony is that he made the karate fella sign a release in case he was injured.

Kind of a "my karma ran over your dogma" moment I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMgVmFzBrus&mode=related&search=

Mashu
08-27-2007, 05:45 PM
I think this is the same guy who accepted the challenge from a MMA guy and got his ass handed to him, I'll see if I can find the link

That was someone else.

http://www.daitouryu-aikidou.jp/

Keith Larman
08-27-2007, 05:46 PM
Here are two links on YT

The first is the challange this guy accepted

The second is of him in his own dojo, footage from 1min,12sec is the interesting bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxb0PCBV0vk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc

Geez, you're fast. Posted just before me.

Same fella in mine as in yours. Not sure if it is the same guy as in the original video, though.

Regardless, that's what I call a reality check. Painful to watch.

mathewjgano
08-27-2007, 05:50 PM
I think this is the same guy who accepted the challenge from a MMA guy and got his ass handed to him, I'll see if I can find the link

I think that was a "kiai master" named Ryukerin? I've seen him listed as both "aikido" and "kiai."

David Humm
08-27-2007, 05:50 PM
Keith,

Off topic but, one of my students bought some tsuba from you recently, just wanted to say how excellent they are. I am already trying to bum one of them off him lol

Back on topic >>

Don_Modesto
08-27-2007, 05:51 PM
Evidently, Arikawa refused to take part in Honbu's annual demonstrations because of stuff like this.

David Humm
08-27-2007, 05:53 PM
That was someone else.That may well be but, whom ever... its from the same stable of whatever you want to call it.

CitoMaramba
08-27-2007, 06:08 PM
The one class I took at Aikikai Hombu was taught by Watanabe Sensei, and during that session he never taught the "no-touch" throws that were shown on the video. Just good solid basics the whole class.

mathewjgano
08-27-2007, 06:09 PM
That may well be but, whom ever... its from the same stable of whatever you want to call it.

Perhaps, but one challenged someone to a competition and the other didn't. I'm still not convinced there were identical assumptions involved between the two ki-practicioners. Maybe you can make the argument that it's a poor way to practice, but it looks a lot like the way I practice alone when i use visualizations to imagine how to move as uke. Responsiveness is crucial to aikido, as i understand it, and I would view this as sensitivity training without knowing what the actual claims were.
Take care,
Matt

Chris Li
08-27-2007, 06:20 PM
Evidently, Arikawa refused to take part in Honbu's annual demonstrations because of stuff like this.

Arikawa always watched the Watanabe demonstrations with a scowl on his face. To his credit, Watanabe goes up and does his thing every year even though you can hear the laughter when he walks out.

When he's not doing the magic stuff Watanabe is, IMO, just fine - solid Aikido (just like another poster said). I actually used to enjoy taking his classes - the exaggeration makes the angles and lines very clear, and it's a great show, although I wouldn't want to do it every day.

Best,

Chris

Ivan Sekularac
08-27-2007, 07:22 PM
Arikawa always watched the Watanabe demonstrations with a scowl on his face. To his credit, Watanabe goes up and does his thing every year even though you can hear the laughter when he walks out.

When he's not doing the magic stuff Watanabe is, IMO, just fine - solid Aikido (just like another poster said). I actually used to enjoy taking his classes - the exaggeration makes the angles and lines very clear, and it's a great show, although I wouldn't want to do it every day.

Best,

Chris

If the guy is truly competent Aikidoka and still resorts to this BS makes it even worst... shameful in fact...

David Orange
08-27-2007, 08:20 PM
I think this is the same guy who accepted the challenge from a MMA guy and got his ass handed to him, I'll see if I can find the link

I don't think it's the same guy, Dave, but he does bear a fairly strong resemblance. As I watched the clip, I was thinking, "Hmmmm....this is where we need that MMA guy to come in."

And I looked at the "Why is there so much confusion about aikido?" thread right after viewing that video clip and thought, "There's your answer."

To give Watanabe the benefit of the doubt, I once decided to really try out an old Japanese teacher once and grabbed him from behind by both shoulders--"For his good and mine," I thought. "Can't let this hypnosis stuff go unchallenged."

Long story short, he threw me without touching me--but I had a good, firm grip of him.

Still, all said and done, I don't see that kind of stuff really working. If he could really do to me some of that stuff that he does in the clip, I'd bow to him very willlingly. But I don't think he could do it without an extremely cooperative uke.

If he can, we've also answered the question, "Will anyone ever surpass Morihei Ueshiba?"

I just don't think he has.

Best to you.

David

Roman Kremianski
08-27-2007, 08:34 PM
It's entertaining to see the people here trying to defend this guy and give him the benefit of the doubt.

There is nothing to be proved. No "Don't bash till you try". You don't need to ask the uke what really happened, or attempt to recall some story when you "thought" you were thrown without being touched. The debunked the kiai guys, they done it to the Yellow Bamboo guys, nothing more really needs to be done. For as long as video footage has existed, it never has been possible. No one has done it.

It's kinda simple...it's just too simple, that's why people still think there's hope, or maybe there's something we don't know yet. I mean, it was fairly obvious it's no mystery just by listening to the laughter in the background during the video.

He might otherwise be a good Aikidoka, I don't know. Why he would bother with this demonstration, I have no idea.

David Orange
08-27-2007, 08:40 PM
When he's not doing the magic stuff Watanabe is, IMO, just fine - solid Aikido (just like another poster said). I actually used to enjoy taking his classes - the exaggeration makes the angles and lines very clear, and it's a great show, although I wouldn't want to do it every day.

I once saw a demo by a group that was affiliated with Mochizuki Sensei's Nihon Budo Kokusai Renmei, which formed after he broke way from IMAF (Kokusai Budo Renmei).

The group I saw was called "En Ryu," I think, and the headmaster did a demo rather like Watanabe's. When uke would approach, the tori would gesture with his hand and uke would fall. Tori would sweep his hand toward uke's knee and uke's knee would "collapse" and he would fall. Tori would geture toward uke's head and he would fall, etc.

I thought it pretty embarrassing. The only justification I could imagine for it was as a very general indication that "take out the knee and he falls, take out the head and he falls."

But in a world of serious budo training, how necessary is that?

Best to you.

David

Ivan Sekularac
08-27-2007, 09:00 PM
I would have bought it if it was presented as some sort of no contact practice, like shadow boxing, but this is clearly supposed to look like self defense...

Roman Kremianski
08-27-2007, 09:14 PM
It's shadow kata...the compliant version of compliant kata.

Chris Li
08-28-2007, 01:34 AM
It's entertaining to see the people here trying to defend this guy and give him the benefit of the doubt.

I wasn't particularly defending him, just recounting my experiences.

Why he would bother with this demonstration, I have no idea.

Why not ask him? I always thought that he was fairly approachable.

Best,

Chris

grondahl
08-28-2007, 01:43 AM
I wonder if Uke at 00:35 is thinking "gotta do this special ukemi to be able to seek out reversals"

roman naly
08-28-2007, 04:27 AM
wow

its bs

Shany
08-28-2007, 04:46 AM
I love it when students are under trance work of their teacher, it makes it such easier to fake KI :D

Roman Kremianski
08-28-2007, 07:46 AM
Why not ask him? I always thought that he was fairly approachable.

RIght. Pass me along his hotmail?

Chris Li
08-28-2007, 09:04 AM
RIght. Pass me along his hotmail?

Well, you can email any of the hombu instructors at Aikikai hombu (http://www.aikikai.or.jp/). Just use the main address and they'll forward it to the right person.

Best,

Chris

DonMagee
08-28-2007, 09:27 AM
If I ever come across an instructor who can knock me down from 4 feet without touching me with any physical object, away using only his mind, I will become his student instantly.

Otherwise, I get a free shot!

Ivan Sekularac
08-28-2007, 10:26 AM
If I ever come across an instructor who can knock me down from 4 feet without touching me with any physical object, away using only his mind, I will become his student instantly.

Otherwise, I get a free shot!

Only highly trained Uke can take that kind of ancient, secretive and super strong Ki attack and live to tell about it... if sensei was to apply that immense force on you... OMG I don't even want to think about it... :D

Don_Modesto
08-28-2007, 12:25 PM
I'm told by a witness to the occasion that Watanabe once made an appearance in Miami where he tried the no-touch stuff. His laconic UKE--Dr. Johnson redux, God love him!--smacked Watanabe upside the head.

Watanabe made his displeasure known and UKE was invited off the mat.

I can't say if Watanabe is precisely a BS artist, there might be something to be gained studyinng the vectors of his movement (Osawa did some very slomo aikido, too, and I don't doubt him), but he IS, at least, a bad loser.

And that video... if Jim Carrey did it on SNL, it'd be comedy.

Mashu
08-28-2007, 12:36 PM
Is this a special time-release discussion?

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=152524&highlight=watanabe#post152524

:)

Chris Li
08-28-2007, 12:56 PM
I'm told by a witness to the occasion that Watanabe once made an appearance in Miami where he tried the no-touch stuff. His laconic UKE--Dr. Johnson redux, God love him!--smacked Watanabe upside the head.

Watanabe made his displeasure known and UKE was invited off the mat.

I can't say if Watanabe is precisely a BS artist, there might be something to be gained studyinng the vectors of his movement (Osawa did some very slomo aikido, too, and I don't doubt him), but he IS, at least, a bad loser.

And that video... if Jim Carrey did it on SNL, it'd be comedy.

My experience at hombu was that he only did the magic stuff on his personal group of students - when you grabbed him hard he would handle you quite conventionally. Anyway, I always thought that he was pretty mellow, although I was never a regular in his classes.

Best,

Chris

gregg block
08-28-2007, 01:25 PM
[QUOTE=David Orange;187802]
And I looked at the "Why is there so much confusion about aikido?" thread right after viewing that video clip and thought, "There's your answer."

ME TOO.

Dewey
08-28-2007, 02:11 PM
Very interesting thread so far. Makes me think of the Larry Reynosa seminar I attended this past weekend in Kansas City (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12928).

Among other things, he commented at great length about the issue of "suggestibility" in Aikido training...which really urked him to no end. At one point, he made all of us lean against the fellow to our right and he did one of those "yellow bamboo, ki-blasting, no-touch" sort of feats on the first guy in the line and then "suggested" to us that we should fall...which we all did. A good laugh was had by all. Throughout the seminar, he made various odd requests just to illustrate his points concerning suggestibility. At one time, he commanded us to do a forward roll, then immediately go to the wall and beat our head against it. We all looked quite puzzled for a moment or two. The point was made...some actually considered it. After all, he's a 6th dan and a famous and well-respected Aikidoka, we have no reason to distrust him, right?

The seminar was recorded, hopefully they'll post it on Youtube. I didn't bring a camera. Too busy worrying about not making a fool out of myself in public...

mathewjgano
08-28-2007, 03:32 PM
It's entertaining to see the people here trying to defend this guy and give him the benefit of the doubt.
Unless I see reason otherwise, i always try to give folks the benefit of the doubt...seems better than assuming I know the full story.

The debunked the kiai guys, they done it to the Yellow Bamboo guys, nothing more really needs to be done. For as long as video footage has existed, it never has been possible. No one has done it.
I don't think this is the same thing. It's not a matter of, "well maybe THIS guy can do it," it's a simple matter of knowing what the purpose behind the behavior is. A person can't say something is BS unless they know the claims and I've yet to see any claims addressed here. All I see is people responding to their own assumptions about the video. Does Watanabe say he can move you or me without touching us with "magical ki"? If he does, then I would probably agree with you, but I have yet to read anything of the sort. Untill then, sure, it looks funny, but so do a lot of excercizes designed to work on something very specific. Now, the kiai guy who got wooped by the MMA fella, that was a well-defined intention and he was shown just how wrong he was.

He might otherwise be a good Aikidoka, I don't know. Why he would bother with this demonstration, I have no idea.
Well then how can you imply this is the same as the examples you listed above? If Watanabe knows Aikido well enough to be promoted to 7th dan, it seems more likely to me that there's a method to his madness and not just madness to his method, like so many here instantly assume.

Shany
08-28-2007, 04:23 PM
t seems more likely to me that there's a method
And we call that Attention.

Matthew Gano, clearly you can't belive that video, it's sad he even doing it none the less claiming it can be done! he even doesn't do the basic techniques properly when the ukes are going "slow slow slow" motion (with the aid of his "powers")

mathewjgano
08-28-2007, 04:34 PM
And we call that Attention.

Matthew Gano, clearly you can't belive that video, it's sad he even doing it none the less claiming it can be done! he even doesn't do the basic techniques properly when the ukes are going "slow slow slow" motion (with the aid of his "powers")

I must not have written very clearly or you didn't read my post very clearly. I make no assertions as to any beliefs about the video. I'm simply making observations and offering what seems plausible to me. I don't know what the sensei is trying to convey to us in those demonstrations. You seem to think he is trying to convey that he can control the neurological impulses which cause people to move. I don't know enough to make that assumption. If that's his intent, then no, i don't believe him. Since I do not know his intent, there's nothing for me to believe about it.

Mark Freeman
08-28-2007, 04:58 PM
Might be worth watching O Sensei here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h-oguFi-zg&mode=related&search=

it seems to me that there are some very close correlations between some of what we see O Sensei do with his uke's and what Wantanabe does with his, not exactly, and not in all cases, but close enough for me to believe that this is just as much an integral part of the art of aikido as the 'effective self defence' elements that also exist.
Aikido practice can be done on diferent levels, physical, mental and spiritual, if you get stuck in the physical and neglect the others, then you are not really practicing the aikido that O Sensei was talking about. The way of aiki requres the co-ordination of all three, it's priciple aim is for the developement of the human being through constant practice of the principles, not to be the most effective 'fighter' on the block. Practicing effective self defence is an aspect of a higher vision. Some realise that vision through practicing aikido in a way that others seem to see as 'not the right way' soft/hard, ki/combat effective.

Before completely writing off a particular (7th Dans? ) way of practice, one may like to consider that they may not be seeing the bigger picture.

Personally I would like to take ukemi from the man before I could pass my own judgement on his aikido.

regards,

Mark

CitoMaramba
08-28-2007, 05:55 PM
Watanabe Sensei is 8th Dan
From The list of instructors at Aikikai Hombu Dojo (http://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/hombu/instructor.htm)
Shigenobu Okumura Shihan 9th dan
Hiroshi Tada Shihan 9th dan
Masatake Fujita Shihan 8th dan
Seijuro Masuda Shihan 8th dan
Masando Sasaki Shihan 8th dan
Nobuyuki Watanabe Shihan 8th dan
Seishiro Endo Shihan 8th dan

gregg block
08-28-2007, 06:44 PM
Watanabe Sensei is 8th Dan
From The list of instructors at Aikikai Hombu Dojo (http://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/hombu/instructor.htm)

Luke Skywalker was a 10th Degree Jedi and he would have had difficulty doing what was being demonstrated in this video. Fantasy is fantasy rank it however you please

mathewjgano
08-28-2007, 07:00 PM
Luke Skywalker was a 10th Degree Jedi and he would have had difficulty doing what was being demonstrated in this video. Fantasy is fantasy rank it however you please

So Watanabe sensei claims to do a "force push"? Or are you making assumptions based on preconceived notions formed from watching the video? If you know of a claim made in which said sensei claims to use telekinesis or mind-control, then I'd love to hear it.

Nick P.
08-28-2007, 08:30 PM
IF memory serves (which it doesn't always), the story goes that this sensei does the same routine every year at the All Japan demo @ the Tokyo budokan.

My teacher tells of when, sitting next to his sensei at said event, he was told by the latter that every year this sensei does this type of demo; it is given in jest.

...or I could be wrong...

Conrad Gus
08-28-2007, 08:36 PM
BEST damn Jim Carrey MA video ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_vvI26NnwE

I'm told by a witness to the occasion that Watanabe once made an appearance in Miami where he tried the no-touch stuff. His laconic UKE--Dr. Johnson redux, God love him!--smacked Watanabe upside the head.

Watanabe made his displeasure known and UKE was invited off the mat.

I can't say if Watanabe is precisely a BS artist, there might be something to be gained studyinng the vectors of his movement (Osawa did some very slomo aikido, too, and I don't doubt him), but he IS, at least, a bad loser.

And that video... if Jim Carrey did it on SNL, it'd be comedy.

gregg block
08-29-2007, 06:21 AM
So Watanabe sensei claims to do a "force push"? Or are you making assumptions based on preconceived notions formed from watching the video? If you know of a claim made in which said sensei claims to use telekinesis or mind-control, then I'd love to hear it.

WHAT? I'm suggesting HUMOR. Maybe youve heard of it. Its a technique thats been around for thousands of years.

mathewjgano
08-29-2007, 07:02 AM
WHAT? I'm suggesting HUMOR. Maybe youve heard of it. Its a technique thats been around for thousands of years.

What is this "humor" you speak of? It sounds like a grand mystical technique and I must know more!!!
lol...I caught the humor...I even laughed out loud when I read it (well, chuckled). I also thought it "sounded" sarcastic and assumed it was just another post poking fun while ignoring the content...which I suppose there's nothing wrong with. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your intent. I'm not exactly angry by your post, so I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. I was a little annoyed with what I saw as a bunch of derisive remarks based on what seemed like an assumption, but it's not that big of a deal to me. I was just trying to find out what the actual claims were and no one seems able to tell me that.
It's all good in the hood!
Take care,
Matt

Roman Kremianski
08-29-2007, 08:15 AM
Well, you can email any of the hombu instructors at Aikikai hombu. Just use the main address and they'll forward it to the right person.

Does he speak English?

Amir Krause
08-29-2007, 08:17 AM
I think all who write here should have read the "No touch throw - again? OMG!!! " thread first:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=152524&highlight=watanabe#post152524

Personally, I am not a student of Aikikai, or Ueshiba Aikido. So I would not have any problem in considering some Aikikai teacher or technique as BS (I actually have done this more then once).

Still, too many here assume they know the purpose of this SHOW, some even claim it is supposed to convey S.D. If they are right about the purpose of this DEMO, it is obviously BS. But, whoever said this was the purpose, and it is not aimed at showing something else (I once speculated it could show Uke developing sensitivity, one could think of other reasons too).

I have encountered several internet forums discussions about some picture or video, supposedly showing some M.A. Sensei demonstrate a technique with lots of flaws. Only to read someone say he was there when the picture\video were taken, and Sensei was just explaining and showing common mistakes. I once even posted pictures of some meeting we had, and some of the pictures were from such moments, because those explanations are often slower and easier to photograph, I wrote next to the picture that sensei is explaining mistakes in bold, and still some people had to point at Sensei mistakes ...

Thus, unless you know for sure the purpose behind a show, be careful commenting on it.

Amir

gregg block
08-29-2007, 09:20 AM
[QUOTE=Amir Krause;
Thus, unless you know for sure the purpose behind a show, be careful commenting on it.

Amir[/QUOTE]

I understand your point but Isn't the purpose of having a forum to comment on things such as this? We don't need to be 100% sure of anything in order to express our opinion based on our knowledge and experience. If we did this forum would be pretty thin and boring

Amir Krause
08-29-2007, 11:08 AM
I understand your point but Isn't the purpose of having a forum to comment on things such as this? We don't need to be 100% sure of anything in order to express our opinion based on our knowledge and experience. If we did this forum would be pretty thin and boring

Not neccesserily: it is a question of how many assumptions are you making (all know assumptions = ...).

From my point of view, thinking of this show as an indication of Aikido for S.D. is as foolish as thinking of a flower arrangment show as a means for S.D. It is way too much BS for me to believe any vetran in Aikido would try such a thing. So, I refuse to make such an assumption without any validation.

Amir

Mark Freeman
08-29-2007, 11:20 AM
Not neccesserily: it is a question of how many assumptions are you making (all know assumptions = ...).

From my point of view, thinking of this show as an indication of Aikido for S.D. is as foolish as thinking of a flower arrangment show as a means for S.D. It is way too much BS for me to believe any vetran in Aikido would try such a thing. So, I refuse to make such an assumption without any validation.

Amir

Good call, Amir. :)

regards,

Mark

gregg block
08-29-2007, 12:30 PM
Not neccesserily: it is a question of how many assumptions are you making (all know assumpti

From my point of view, thinking of this show as an indication of Aikido for S.D. is as foolish as thinking of a flower arrangment show as a means for S.D. It is way too much BS for me to believe any vetran in Aikido would try such a thing. So, I refuse to make such an assumption without any validation.

Amir

I can't even begin to imagine what the purpose of such a show could be. When you find out let me know. Until then I'll stick with my assumption that it's the same mystic B.S. I've seen so many times throughout the martial arts..

Chris Li
08-29-2007, 01:01 PM
Does he speak English?

No idea, but I'm sure that there are Japanese speakers in Toronto who can translate for you.

Best,

Chris

Roman Kremianski
08-29-2007, 02:10 PM
Are you just saying that because you know I ultimately won't bother?

Isn't there a brief/description up online somewhere written by him explaining the purpose of his demonstration? I would very much like to know, and I don't feel like traveling to Japan, emailing, phoning, contacting him by carrier pigeon, or enlisting any Japanese people.

Chris Li
08-29-2007, 02:54 PM
Are you just saying that because you know I ultimately won't bother?

Isn't there a brief/description up online somewhere written by him explaining the purpose of his demonstration? I would very much like to know, and I don't feel like traveling to Japan, emailing, phoning, contacting him by carrier pigeon, or enlisting any Japanese people.

Not that I know of...

Best,

Chris

Bronson
08-29-2007, 09:52 PM
Isn't there a brief/description up online somewhere written by him explaining the purpose of his demonstration? I would very much like to know, and I don't feel like traveling to Japan, emailing, phoning, contacting him by carrier pigeon, or enlisting any Japanese people.

Just to bust your chops a little ...if you're not willing to do anything to find out it doesn't really sound like you would "very much like to know".

Heck, I bet if you emailed him in English there would be somebody at the Aikikai who could translate it for him.

Bronson

Roman Kremianski
08-29-2007, 10:01 PM
Sarcasm doesn't really carry as well through forums.

And I'd say I'm mildly curious at best.

Amir Krause
08-30-2007, 04:55 AM
Not neccesserily: it is a question of how many assumptions are you making (all know assumpti

From my point of view, thinking of this show as an indication of Aikido for S.D. is as foolish as thinking of a flower arrangment show as a means for S.D. It is way too much BS for me to believe any vetran in Aikido would try such a thing. So, I refuse to make such an assumption without any validation.

Amir

I can't even begin to imagine what the purpose of such a show could be. When you find out let me know. Until then I'll stick with my assumption that it's the same mystic B.S. I've seen so many times throughout the martial arts..

I don't have any idea about the purpose of this show. I am just not willing to make assumptions which seems so improbable to me (such as this being S.D.). The only no-touch throws I am willing to believe in, are those related to Uke safeguarding his own health and jumping before the technique hits him.

I would be happy if someone from Aikikai would be able to ask and get an explenation. Being myself from another system, I do not care enough ...

Amir

David Humm
08-30-2007, 05:17 AM
Sarcasm doesn't really carry as well through forums.

And I'd say I'm mildly curious at best.English language is acceptable and a contact email address is on the aikikai website.

maxwelljones
09-02-2007, 06:56 PM
No touch throws might be a good teaching tool. Personally, at my level of experience, I wouldn't have a clue, but I'm pretty sure they don't make good embu material.

Nikopol
09-02-2007, 10:17 PM
I can't even begin to imagine what the purpose of such a show could be. When you find out let me know. Until then I'll stick with my assumption that it's the same mystic B.S. I've seen so many times throughout the martial arts..

The suggestion has been made that this is meant to be humorous.
It is also been said that Watanabe is a good teacher and Aikidoka.

Perhaps we need to shake our heads to free them up from a calcified way of looking at this video.

In the context of a meeting of a group like this, an extended family if you will, there is the aim of instruction, but, for a body of people whose every meeting is devoted to instruction, this sort of meeting is a rather special gathering and the participants are meant to enjoy it. So the idea of a humorous 'skit' should not be surprising.

Especially one that embodies and displays skill - those back-bending ukes are demonstrating great control and fitness - and embodies the idea and spirit of ki, and contains some actual aikido contact. If the misunderstanding of ki is something of an inside joke, than this would be the place to bring some mirth into the program. Aikido study is not meant to be humorless, and the practitioners are not mechanoids.

I have always found that in such meetings of extended groups in Japan, for example religious gatherings, songs and skits will be offered. Let us contrast this pure entertainment to its alternative: alcohol and cigarettes and karaoke and loud stupid talking and shouting.

So if someone who has been there tells us it's meant to be entertaining, none of us reading this thread really have any cause to doubt that. After all, this is not the Charlatan in the other video who attacks a fighter first, pathetically, never uses ma-ai or sabaki and gets punched out. That guy was BS. But perhaps Watanabe sensei is just giving the flock some of natures best medicine. (Laughter)

My two yen's worth....

Chris Li
09-03-2007, 12:12 AM
No touch throws might be a good teaching tool. Personally, at my level of experience, I wouldn't have a clue, but I'm pretty sure they don't make good embu material.

Quite the contrary - it's a great show.

Best,

Chris

gregg block
09-03-2007, 10:20 AM
[QUOTE=Vincent Nikopol;188477]The suggestion has been made that this is meant to be humorous.
It is also been said that Watanabe is a good teacher and Aikidoka.

Perhaps we need to shake our heads to free them up from a calcified way of looking at this video.

In the context of a meeting of a group like this, an extended family if you will, there is the aim of instruction, but, for a body of people whose every meeting is devoted to instruction, this sort of meeting is a rather special gathering and the participants are meant to enjoy it. So the idea of a humorous 'skit' should not be surprising.

If it's humor I guess I don't get the joke but thats ok do what you like in your own house. Just don't put the joke on you tube and label it Aikido to be laughed at by serious martial artists.

Nikopol
09-03-2007, 10:34 PM
[QUOTE=Gregg Block;188505

If it's humor I guess I don't get the joke but thats ok do what you like in your own house. Just don't put the joke on you tube and label it Aikido to be laughed at by serious martial artists.[/QUOTE]

I was reading 'Aikido with Ki' last night. Tohei Sensei writes that by extending your ki you avoid taking bad ki from others.

To let what they say on Youtube get a rise out of us, we are taking bad ki, all the more reason to be thankful for an occasion to lighten up.

But anyways, it certainly wasn't I who posted this on youtube, so perhaps a private message to the youtube poster is in order.