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Jess McDonald
08-21-2007, 09:59 PM
YOYO! So this morning at work I got into a rather vicious argument with a "friend". It got so bad that my boss had to stop me from charging at her and busting her head clean open:grr: . Now I know I did not display my aikido discipline and probably should of reacted differently and definitely not engaged in physical violence but it's so damn hard. I subconsciously switched off my rational thinking and was consumed by the anger to the point of wanting to inflict serious bodily harm against another.
Anyway, what do you guys think; how do you control your anger even when someone is dishonoring you? Do you think there's a point where your obligated to stand up for yourself even if violence may ensue? Let me know your thoughts. Thanks for your comments!! Late!!:)
P.S. remember this isn't irritation I'm talking about but blinding anger

dps
08-21-2007, 10:22 PM
At your dojo volunteer to uke for everybody. Do not practice any techniques but just be uke all the time.

David

Roman Kremianski
08-21-2007, 10:25 PM
Welcome to being a relatively young human being. :D

Jess McDonald
08-21-2007, 10:33 PM
Welcome to being a relatively young human being. :D

Word.:cool:

SeiserL
08-22-2007, 04:46 AM
how do you control your anger even when someone is dishonoring you?
IMHO, by not taking it personal.

Mike Hamer
08-22-2007, 05:00 AM
I try to look at the whole scope of things, the situation beyond the situation, that's what stops ME from killing people.

justin
08-22-2007, 05:09 AM
Welcome to being a relatively young human being. :D

i am feeling that

James Davis
08-22-2007, 10:56 AM
Whether I'm attacked physically or verbally, I'll step off line into a hanmi.

Visualize their words passing you by and not hurting you.

If self control is a reall problem, sometimes it's best to walk away and give yourself time to cool down.

If you're anything like me, a few more years of training will change you for the better. Best of luck.

Breath.;)

Don_Modesto
08-22-2007, 11:07 AM
YOYO! So this morning at work I got into a rather vicious argument with a "friend". It got so bad that my boss had to stop me from charging at her and busting her head clean open:grr: Quite a confession.

You've just described criminal battery and perhaps attempted murder.

If this wasn't hyperbole, you might consider anger management counseling.

Qatana
08-22-2007, 11:28 AM
Hmm, I think Jess is speaking metaphorically here.
I do have anger management issues and aikido and meditation have been invaluable in me getting myself under control.It takes a long time, a lot of patience wioth yourself and hopefully a good sense of humor.. however we Can learn how to find the space between aggravation and reaction and choose our responses.

trailbuster530
08-22-2007, 11:39 AM
This is a good post. This is something I have dealt with in the past and have been working really hard over the past couple years to real it in even further.

The first attempt at calming me down was done in Wrestling in High School. This was a way for me to get my anger and frustration out. But. . . . .What I realized after a few lessons from the coach was. . . . . That as soon as you loose control. . . . . . You loose.

If you don't keep a level head you don't think straight. You end up loosing in many ways. If you win the Fight you end up loosing the battle as you process what happened afterwards. You do exactly what you are doing now which is second guess yourself and question if you were right or wrong in your actions and did you take it to far.

The second attempt to calm was after I got married and my wife told me I needed to get involved in something physical that would get me focused on anger management. This worked and allowed me to remember what I was taught in high school.

Over the last couple years I have been focusing the mental part even more. What I have learned is what does it really matter. People can say things about you all they want. It's how it hits home to you.

Think about this.

If you are short and your buddies call you shortie or as I call my daughter Runt. How do you react?

Usually if it's from people you know really well and know they are not trying to push a button you just chuckle or say "Hi or What or etc"

If someone you don't know or don't trust says these things to you what is your reaction?

I would be it's simular to what you are experiencing.

You have to really start to look at yourself and how you process these types of triggers and how you deal with them.

You can only change yourself so the focus is on how you react to these triggers not what the other person does or says to you.

Jess McDonald
08-22-2007, 01:43 PM
Thanks guys for all the great responses. It seems I'm not alone in all this which is comforting to some degree (there's a lot of angry people out there!). I guess that my real problem is that I don't want anyone thinking I'm weak; which is why I overreacted the other day. It's hard for me to let them talk to me as if I was some weak, crying little girl without getting all "oh yeah, I'll show you whose weak and crying!".
Okay, I'm going to work on this (meaning the anger and the need to have everyone think I'm tough) as it obviously is a huge vulnerability.
No one said this was going to easy, huh?:)
Thanks again for your replies and wish me luck as I go back to work tomorrow.
Zen master...zen master...zen...1...2...3...zen...ahhhh...peace at last!!
LATE!!!:D :cool:

trailbuster530
08-22-2007, 02:04 PM
You are correct in that it is not easy. It's a struggle and again your the only one that can make the changes.

It's been, dare I say it, 24 years since I started in an attempt to correct my behaviors. The people that have known me over the past 20+ years can't see me the way I was. It rarely comes out in discussion and it's only when others around me are struggling too that I let them know that it can be controled.

Over the past 15 years of my marriage I would have to say I am in a lot better place than I have every been as it relates to my anger. I too have been worried about others seeing me as weak and what I have learned is that it really does not matter.

I keep my base solid and know where I am comfortable and where I am not in my own safety. When I am in a position that is not safe I work on removing myself from the situation.

What does being weak really mean? It's more of a perception than anything.

If a kid is pestering you and you stop giving them the satisfaction of getting a reaction what do they do? Go find something else to do that might be more productive and get positive attention?

You are never alone in this struggle and there are more people out there that can offer support than you think.

Feel free to yell my direction anytime.

GLWeeks
08-22-2007, 02:44 PM
Just look at them and snap your fingers... When they ask you what that was about tell them, "I just killed you in my head"... :)

Guilty Spark
08-22-2007, 03:01 PM
how do you control your anger even when someone is dishonoring you?
Only one personc an make you loose your honour.

Do you think there's a point where your obligated to stand up for yourself even if violence may ensue?
No. It's personal choice, not obligation.
I think however there are times you MUST stand up for yourself, up to and including violence. If you lay on the ground you're gonna get stepped on. Stand up for yourself and especially people around you.

mathewjgano
08-22-2007, 04:41 PM
YOYO! So this morning at work I got into a rather vicious argument with a "friend". It got so bad that my boss had to stop me from charging at her and busting her head clean open:grr: . Now I know I did not display my aikido discipline and probably should of reacted differently and definitely not engaged in physical violence but it's so damn hard. I subconsciously switched off my rational thinking and was consumed by the anger to the point of wanting to inflict serious bodily harm against another.
Anyway, what do you guys think; how do you control your anger even when someone is dishonoring you? Do you think there's a point where your obligated to stand up for yourself even if violence may ensue? Let me know your thoughts. Thanks for your comments!! Late!!:)
P.S. remember this isn't irritation I'm talking about but blinding anger
I grew up with hot-heads and as I see it, it has very little to do with anyone but yourself. I don't care how vile and repugnant the words coming out of someone's mouth may be, it all comes down to you and how you choose to act. Maybe your subconscious is to blame like you indicated, I really can't say. I know one particular person who has blacked out past the first couple punches and had to be told about how he was pummeling someone on the ground. This same person, over time, has become quite conscious in their choices to not let things bother them so much...or more correctly, to not react in such a base manner. There's always a choice involved.
All that said, dishonor isn't something someone can do to you, in my opinion. Only you can dishonor yourself. Let the words fly; i could give two sh*ts. My self respect is high enough that when people verbally attack me, I realize quite quickly that it reflects only upon them. Now, if there's a grain of truth, or a few grains of truth, to what they're saying, I try to take that to heart, to learn from it, but beyond those "grains," who cares. It's worthless and reflects directly on those spitting it at me.
Practically speaking, violence is usually stupid. Of all the people I know who got into fights or beat someone up, none of them benefitted from it in any lasting way. They have nothing to show for these actions except for jail time or bruises on their knuckles and a lasting grudge that only got more complicated. Perspective perspective perspective.
I commend you for thoughfully trying to consider what happened, even though it's quite after the fact. None of us is perfect of course, but we are adaptible creatures and the ability to change which comes from that is profoundly useful. Good luck.
Matt
ps- with regard to "weakness:" you can never control what others think. I've often been viewed as weak. Truth is, they're right, but for the wrong reasons. We're ants on a small ball of dirt in the middle of vacuous space. We could all die at any moment from any number of things. We all have blind spots ("weaknesses") and anyone who thinks otherwise has a gapping hole of a weakness. Knowing you're ignorant makes you smarter; knowing you're weak makes you stronger. It's all relative. Gambatte!

gregg block
08-22-2007, 05:53 PM
A physical attack requires a physical response. Words are just words, they bother us because we allow them too. They pose no physical threat. There is enough violence in the world. Don't let someones words cause you to make a mistake you wish you could take back.

Dewey
08-22-2007, 06:00 PM
YOYO! So this morning at work I got into a rather vicious argument with a "friend". It got so bad that my boss had to stop me from charging at her and busting her head clean open:grr: . Now I know I did not display my aikido discipline and probably should of reacted differently and definitely not engaged in physical violence but it's so damn hard. I subconsciously switched off my rational thinking and was consumed by the anger to the point of wanting to inflict serious bodily harm against another.
Anyway, what do you guys think; how do you control your anger even when someone is dishonoring you? Do you think there's a point where your obligated to stand up for yourself even if violence may ensue? Let me know your thoughts. Thanks for your comments!! Late!!:)
P.S. remember this isn't irritation I'm talking about but blinding anger

I can understand this. Verbal assault is often just as painful & angering as physical assault...moreso if it's from someone we know. I work as a contractor at a large aerospace manufacturing plant with a very pro-Union workforce. I am verbally assualted on an almost daily basis, as is my mother or any other female in my life.

At first, it nearly drove me to lash out in physical violence because the verbal abuse was/is so nasty and personal. However, I eventually discovered that the principles of Aikido apply equally to both physical and verbal attacks. Once I came to this discovery, the verbal assaults I receive are effortlessly & harmlessly redirected. Think of it as emotional maai and tai sabaki.

It's hard to explain, but just try it...it works: always keep your emotional maai and tai sabaki.

Aristeia
08-22-2007, 06:52 PM
I think everyone's missing the point. The fact that her boss was able to hold her back means Jess needs to train more - then she could have done what she wamted...

Oh all right I'll contribute something serious. NLP tells us that behind every emotion is a belief. Seems to me the emotion here is rage. I wonder what the belief you hold is that led to that rage....

Janet Rosen
08-22-2007, 07:17 PM
I think the belief or the self-message perhaps might be reflected in the question "..when someone is dishonoring you?"
The questions you may want to ask yourself include: what does it mean to me to "be dishonored"? What does it look/feel like to me and how do I feel when I think it is happening? Then: Are there behaviors or words that come from another person that I PERCEIVE as dishonoring me but that in fact may spring from very different motives or sources?
We filter other people's words and attitudes through our own "hot buttons" and it is almost universal human trait to ascribe motives or thoughts to other people on the basis of our OWN internal crap rather than what is happening in reality.

Guilty Spark
08-22-2007, 07:29 PM
A physical attack requires a physical response. Words are just words, they bother us because we allow them too. They pose no physical threat. .

I disagree.
While I understand the distinction you're making, words CAN cause physical threat.

A kid (or even adult) bullied, threatened and stressed out (even without "being hit") can suffer physically.
The stress alone from an/constant emotional attacks can cause people to stop eating, stomach pains, throw up, even actual muscle pain.

One always has the option of walking away but sometimes even that won't protect someone from the physical effects of an emotional attack.

I think you're right about them hurting us when we allow it. Control that and presto.

tedehara
08-22-2007, 08:03 PM
...Anyway, what do you guys think; how do you control your anger even when someone is dishonoring you? Do you think there's a point where your obligated to stand up for yourself even if violence may ensue? Let me know your thoughts. Thanks for your comments!! Late!!:)
P.S. remember this isn't irritation I'm talking about but blinding angerRecently I had someone try and provoke me into a fight. I had to step back and ask myself, "Am I a gangsta? Do I really need to pound some clown because he's dissing me?" I walked away. The easiest way to end a fight is not to start one.

David Humm
08-22-2007, 09:02 PM
A physical attack requires a physical response. Words are just words, they bother us because we allow them too. They pose no physical threat. There is enough violence in the world. Don't let someones words cause you to make a mistake you wish you could take back.Gregg... I'm gonna kill you.

Just words or a real threat ?

Over the internet they might mean very little however, face to face, if you considered my intent be real, then you'd be within your rights here in the UK to physically defend yourself, even though to that point, you haven't be physically assaulted.

Walking way in those circumstances just might not be the right thing to do if the person issuing the threat actually means what he/she says.

Jess McDonald
08-22-2007, 10:22 PM
This has sparked more of an interest than I first thought!!:cool:

mathewjgano
08-23-2007, 07:56 AM
Gregg... I'm gonna kill you.

Just words or a real threat ?

Over the internet they might mean very little however, face to face, if you considered my intent be real, then you'd be within your rights here in the UK to physically defend yourself, even though to that point, you haven't be physically assaulted.

Walking way in those circumstances just might not be the right thing to do if the person issuing the threat actually means what he/she says.

Wow...in the US I don't think this is the case. I can talk all kinds of trash and make all kinds of threats but unless I take steps to actually make it happen, no verbal threat that I'm aware of can be regarded as an attack warranting violent response. Of course there are special circumstances such as airports etc. but so far as I am aware, between two people in most locations, responding with aggressive physical action to verbal action is a crime. There isn't always a clear line between the kinds of physical action which warrant physical response, but words alone should never provoke physical retaliation.
I agree simply walking away might not be a safe option...or at least, turning your back or otherwise allowing yourself to be in a compromised situation defensively could open things up for serious injury. I've seen too many sucker punches to think otherwise.

Marie Noelle Fequiere
08-23-2007, 11:16 AM
This has sparked more of an interest than I first thought!!:cool:

Believe me, a lot more people than you think have this problem. I too have an explosive temper - it runs in my family -, and I have been fighting it really hard those past few years.
Remember, when you have a conflict with someone and they are obviously wrong - there can be no justification in insulting somebody - your best move is to keep your dignity and let them disgrace themselves. Alone.
I know, it's not always easy. But do not forget that a lot of crimes are committed like this...
Next time, try to express verbally what you feel, like:
"I really feel that you are insulting me, and I will not accept it".
Or:
"Look at yourself, you are loosing control, and your dignity also".
Also, maybe you are facing a lot of stress unrelated to this incident, and this person pushed you one step too far.
Since the incident had a witness, talk to him, apologize, and express your indignation (verbally).
Did you read Kensho Furuya Sensei's book: "Kodo - Ancient Ways"? There is a chapter titled: "Make mistakes correctly".
What he means is that everybody makes mistakes. But it's never too late to fix things up, and it can be done with flying colors.
And like a friend of mine likes to say:
"Life is too short to be pissed off all the time".
And I would add:
"Even occasionally".

Bronson
08-23-2007, 03:09 PM
Wow...in the US I don't think this is the case.

I'm no lawyer but from my readings on self-defense law if you threaten me and I believe you are in a position to carry out that threat, I would be justified in defending myself.

Example 1: We are both at a party and you've had too much to drink and aren't feeling well. As you lay on the ground holding your head in an attempt to keep it from exploding you say "if you touch me I'll kill you". No threatening actions and I would doubt you had the physical ability to carry out the threat so I would not be justified in using force against you.

Example 2: You are walking toward me in a menacing manner with your hand in your jacket pocket and you threaten to kill me. From my readings I would be justified in using force against you even though you had not physically attacked me (yet).

It all comes down to whether I can convince a judge/jury that I truly believed my safety and/or life were jeapordized.

Again, I ain't no law person this is just what I've gathered in my reading.

Bronson

Tim Griffiths
08-24-2007, 01:38 AM
Wow...in the US I don't think this is the case. I can talk all kinds of trash and make all kinds of threats but unless I take steps to actually make it happen, no verbal threat that I'm aware of can be regarded as an attack warranting violent response......words alone should never provoke physical retaliation.

Both in the UK and the US, you can defend yourself against a reasonable belief you're immediately going to be attacked. Quoting a random google'd legal page:
There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat. The person threatened must reasonably believe that he will be killed or injured if he does not act immediately.

That can be pulling back a punch, or picking up a knife or an aggressive physical move. If I sit in an armchair and say "I'm gunno slap your face" I haven't handed you the right to break a chair over my head.
Even in the various cases where battered women have killed/burnt alive their sleeping husbands, self-defense is not a workable plea as there was no imminent danger - self-defense has to be an act to avert a danger *now*.

Tim

(My understanding of this law comes from the UK, although all the web references I found in a couple of minutes of looking were from the US).

dalen7
08-24-2007, 01:02 PM
.... probably should of reacted differently and definitely not engaged in physical violence but it's so damn hard.

Anyway, what do you guys think; how do you control your anger even when someone is dishonoring you? Do you think there's a point where your obligated to stand up for yourself even if violence may ensue? Let me know your thoughts. Thanks for your comments!! Late!!:)

- "how do you control...when someone is dishonoring you?"
Well, you are not dishonored. It is a 'story' nothing less and nothing more. And what they say has nothing to do about who you are.
That is unless you 'identify' with objects (which include thoughts, thought that may seem abstract.)

Who you truly are is as it is and cannot be dishonored, when you know who you are, you will see through the ego in someone else.
Until then its ego looking at another ego.

Any sense of negativity is the 'ego' (or thought pretending to be you) having its way.

Again, as I always do I recommend the philosphers eckhart Tolles audio book 'new earth' - the teaching blend well in with that of what one can potentially take away when applying spirituality to their aikido.

- "probably should have reacted..."
No 'shoulds' - as simple as this sounds, its truth solid, and that is all you have is the 'present moment'/now. Past and Furture are 'thought forms' and only happen in this present time.

So as you release the past and the future (doesnt mean you cant plan, etc. but stop letting it 'rule your life') then you will be free to make a 'conscious' choice of the story you wish to follow...if any all.

The best to you in this...

Peace

dAlen

mathewjgano
08-24-2007, 04:15 PM
Both in the UK and the US, you can defend yourself against a reasonable belief you're immediately going to be attacked. Quoting a random google'd legal page:

That can be pulling back a punch, or picking up a knife or an aggressive physical move. If I sit in an armchair and say "I'm gunno slap your face" I haven't handed you the right to break a chair over my head.
Even in the various cases where battered women have killed/burnt alive their sleeping husbands, self-defense is not a workable plea as there was no imminent danger - self-defense has to be an act to avert a danger *now*.
(My understanding of this law comes from the UK, although all the web references I found in a couple of minutes of looking were from the US).

Ok so it's how I thought it was. I remember situations with cops which included the matter of a verbal threat. The people who were feeling threatened were basically told words alone mean nothing...which was why I was suprised at the idea that verbal threats could constitute grounds for self-defense. "I'm going to kill you" isn't enough.

mathewjgano
08-24-2007, 04:18 PM
- "how do you control...when someone is dishonoring you?"
Well, you are not dishonored. It is a 'story' nothing less and nothing more. And what they say has nothing to do about who you are.
That is unless you 'identify' with objects (which include thoughts, thought that may seem abstract.)

Who you truly are is as it is and cannot be dishonored, when you know who you are, you will see through the ego in someone else.
Until then its ego looking at another ego.

Any sense of negativity is the 'ego' (or thought pretending to be you) having its way.

Again, as I always do I recommend the philosphers eckhart Tolles audio book 'new earth' - the teaching blend well in with that of what one can potentially take away when applying spirituality to their aikido.

- "probably should have reacted..."
No 'shoulds' - as simple as this sounds, its truth solid, and that is all you have is the 'present moment'/now. Past and Furture are 'thought forms' and only happen in this present time.

So as you release the past and the future (doesnt mean you cant plan, etc. but stop letting it 'rule your life') then you will be free to make a 'conscious' choice of the story you wish to follow...if any all.

The best to you in this...

Peace

dAlen
I just wanted to express how beautifully poetic that was to me...very nice; thank you.
Take care,
matt

Jess McDonald
08-25-2007, 10:00 PM
Thanks for everything folks...all your advice and wise words. Maybe there isn't so many knuckle heads out there as I thought!! Thanks again for your support! :)
BTW, I think everything is cool now; had meetings with bosses and the other chick. However, I don't think we'll be good friends any time soon as she didn't even look me in the eyes when we shook hands. Oh well! LATE!! :D ;)