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villrg0a
08-12-2007, 05:23 AM
They are known as the the Philippine Martial Arts Combat AIKIDO (PHIMACA).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wR_ENzRbOs

Tony Wagstaffe
08-12-2007, 08:03 AM
They are known as the the Philippine Martial Arts Combat AIKIDO (PHIMACA).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wR_ENzRbOs

Don't think so...... Pretty uniforms though.... hee hee!

Too many people using the word "aikido" these days to add some sort of credibility to what they are doing..... why don't they just call it Phillippine Self Defence and leave out the "Aikido"
Tony

George S. Ledyard
08-12-2007, 08:23 AM
This has absolutely nothing to do with Aikido.

RoyK
08-12-2007, 09:09 AM
Maybe the connection is the idea of a non-resistive uke? But here he's not only non resistive, he's also non flowing, he just ceases to move after the initial strike, like he ran out of batteries.

At any rate, I wouldn't call this form of training "combat". The first particle "com" or "con" implies an interaction, and this is a one sided practice.

Roman Kremianski
08-12-2007, 09:28 AM
I like that robot uke.

"Play dead! Roll over! Ok now hold still for a second while I finish this technique...almost there...ok now play dead again!!"

Ketsan
08-12-2007, 10:09 AM
Maybe the connection is the idea of a non-resistive uke? But here he's not only non resistive, he's also non flowing, he just ceases to move after the initial strike, like he ran out of batteries.

At any rate, I wouldn't call this form of training "combat". The first particle "com" or "con" implies an interaction, and this is a one sided practice.

Or maybe the connection is that uke is held motionless though some kind of ki manipulation. :D

jennifer paige smith
08-12-2007, 10:51 AM
This has absolutely nothing to do with Aikido.



I hear chain saws grinding, see trees falling, and hear nature weezing.

CitoMaramba
08-12-2007, 11:53 AM
And to think they could have learned a more realistic way of attacking with a knife from any number of Filipino Martial Arts Systems.. what a waste.. <sigh>..

Mark Uttech
08-12-2007, 01:30 PM
This has absolutely nothing to do with Aikido.

I absolutely agree with George here. There is nothing new under the sun.

In gassho,

Mark

crbateman
08-12-2007, 03:36 PM
Saying it's Aikido doesn't make it Aikido...

SeiserL
08-12-2007, 04:19 PM
IMHO, I see neither Aikido or traditional FMA.
Not a new breed.

Gene McGloin
08-12-2007, 05:15 PM
They are known as the the Philippine Martial Arts Combat AIKIDO (PHIMACA).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wR_ENzRbOs

Oh, I thought the "aiki" part was the ability to initiate an attack with a nod of the head. Why not drop "Aikido" and use a Tagalog word instead?

kironin
08-12-2007, 06:20 PM
I absolutely agree with George here. There is nothing new under the sun.

In gassho,

Mark

Ditto.

raul rodrigo
08-12-2007, 07:51 PM
Its the kind of thing that give Filipino aikidoka a bad name.

jennifer paige smith
08-12-2007, 08:02 PM
Its the kind of thing that give Filipino aikidoka a bad name.

Now, I wouldn't go that far. Bad aikido gives aikido a bad name. This is something that is different. I'm not sure exactly what it is and how the club became inclined to describe it as Aikido. But I don't think we need to worry about aikido getting a bad name. But let's practice in deep earnest ourselves this week, just to be sure.

I'm very interested in how these guys came into 'being'. And what attracts them to aikido that they would choose this name. Also, I wonder, if they were xposed to some early off shoot aikido group that isn't the o'sensei brand, if you will. Lots of intrigue. Hmmmm.

raul rodrigo
08-12-2007, 08:10 PM
As it happens, Jennifer, I am Filipino and I do know how Combat Aikido came into being. In my country, when we say we are aikidoka, we often hasten to say "traditional, not Combat." The combat version is far better known and publicized in this country than the Aikikai. So I want to keep a clear distance between myself and this kind of thing. Cito Maramba, who is on this forum, would know what I am talking about.

R

aikidoc
08-12-2007, 08:25 PM
Looks more like karate two steps. I'm not sure what is aiki about what they are doing. I agree with George- not aikido. Call it something else. Looks like some muay thai with the knee and elbow strikes.

villrg0a
08-12-2007, 11:59 PM
Hi Raul,

These guys dont have Gavileno's blood in their veins.

How this group came about? Please check their site www.phimaca.org

Should have titled this thread "Is this Aikido"

bob_stra
08-13-2007, 03:59 PM
Combat aikido you say?

Has someone posted this here already?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XVbS0xHCerw

aikidoc
08-13-2007, 04:16 PM
Still waiting for some aikido to be demonstrated. Saw some jujutsu and judo and karate so far.

Luc X Saroufim
08-13-2007, 04:46 PM
some of the strikes and avoidance look familiar, but they would look familiar in other arts as well. not really unique to Aikido.

gregg block
08-13-2007, 04:48 PM
Looks a lot like some things I learned in my early years in Tae-Kwon-Do and Karate. Certainly not Aikido. Hey do you think it works if Nage doesn't nodd his head to let Uke know its ok to attach?

Jess McDonald
08-13-2007, 09:43 PM
yo! Seems like everyone is pretty much thinking the same in regards to the video. It wouldn't be so bad if they just had continuous/uninterrupted aiki-blending...I guess:confused: . Anyhoo, glad it ain't my school! Late!!

aikido_diver
08-13-2007, 09:58 PM
Absolute piece of rubbish!

Hate to say it! Sorry if I offend!

Rupert Atkinson
08-14-2007, 05:24 AM
It is a lot like a style of Jujutsu I learned in the UK. It is also, a lot more like Hapkido. Not all Hapkido looks like this, but I have seen a lot that does. At a guess, they are probably doing Hapkido - the uniforms look Korean too. As Philippinos, I am sure they are aware of Arnis/Escrima and would be under no illusions. What they are doing is demo style kata techniques, that's all. They train in a similar way in Korea and while it may not look alive or real, the people doing it are about as tough as tough as tough can be - a Karate approach to Jujutsu, if you like. In that sense, they are probably more martial than the average aikidoka, in my opinion. Of course, it has nothng to do with Aikido at all - and who said it did?

justin
08-14-2007, 05:53 AM
Of course, it has nothng to do with Aikido at all - and who said it did?[/QUOTE]

the original poster nothing the thread with a statement "new breed of Aikido" think thats where it came from

villrg0a
08-14-2007, 06:03 AM
[QUOTE= Of course, it has nothng to do with Aikido at all - and who said it did?[/QUOTE]

They claim they are doing combat aikido, it says so in their name.:D
I posted the video to check if everybody else agrees, hmmm I dont see any aikido either.

If what you said is true, then combat karate, or combat hapkido would be a better name then?

RoyK
08-14-2007, 08:00 AM
A serious question.

Osensei adapted Daito Ryu techniques to fit his ideals. If you get rid of the ideals, what good are the adapted techniques? Just go back to the bone breaking sources and call the art "Combat Daito Ryu" and not "Combat Aikido". When you perform a technique in a way that preserves the attacker rather than create as much damage as possible, that's not very combative.

(I am not implying that these demonstrations are "not good enough to be called Aikido" [I'm not qualified to judge], I am just suggesting that using Aikido techniques without the Aikido frame of mind seems like an inefficient approach).

jennifer paige smith
08-14-2007, 10:08 AM
As it happens, Jennifer, I am Filipino and I do know how Combat Aikido came into being. In my country, when we say we are aikidoka, we often hasten to say "traditional, not Combat." The combat version is far better known and publicized in this country than the Aikikai. So I want to keep a clear distance between myself and this kind of thing. Cito Maramba, who is on this forum, would know what I am talking about.

R

That sounds reasonable. I wouldn't worry too much about how you may be percieved anyways and I wouldn't try to take it on personally. There are oodles of mis-perception regarding aikido,martial arts and aikido styles here, there and everywhere. It seems to be the nature of the beast. In my experience focus on my own training and knowledge base improves my practice and fear of mis-perception has never been an allie to me.

If you don't mind,please follow up your statement ,"as it happens I am filipino and I do know how combat came into being." with some of the information that you have about how the arts came into being. I am familiar with Cito Maramba and I am sure he would know( and perhaps if he is reading this forum he may add some info, please:) ). I do'n't believe there is any skepticism regarding your affiliation or knowledge, certainly not from me, but the questions and intrigue surrounding this particular group still remains on my part.
Thanks
Jen

jennifer paige smith
08-14-2007, 10:12 AM
A serious question.

Osensei adapted Daito Ryu techniques to fit his ideals. If you get rid of the ideals, what good are the adapted techniques? Just go back to the bone breaking sources and call the art "Combat Daito Ryu" and not "Combat Aikido". When you perform a technique in a way that preserves the attacker rather than create as much damage as possible, that's not very combative.

(I am not implying that these demonstrations are "not good enough to be called Aikido" [I'm not qualified to judge], I am just suggesting that using Aikido techniques without the Aikido frame of mind seems like an inefficient approach).

I agree with the second part of this post with all my training.
Thanks

Ron Tisdale
08-14-2007, 10:22 AM
A serious question.

Osensei adapted Daito Ryu techniques to fit his ideals. If you get rid of the ideals, what good are the adapted techniques? Just go back to the bone breaking sources and call the art "Combat Daito Ryu" and not "Combat Aikido".

Well, for one, even though the status of Daito ryu as koryu is questionable, it is enough of a "traditional" art, where anyone with any real credibility shouldn't just call their art Daito ryu without a proven record of instruction within one of the legitimate branches of the art. And a license to teach from that branch.

When you perform a technique in a way that preserves the attacker rather than create as much damage as possible, that's not very combative.

My own opinion is that without very good control of the attacker, there can be no mercy. Therefore I would say that some of the most "combative" waza may also be the most merciful. Just a different viewpoint...

Best,
Ron

Don_Modesto
08-14-2007, 11:15 AM
My own opinion is that without very good control of the attacker, there can be no mercy. Therefore I would say that some of the most "combative" waza may also be the most merciful. Just a different viewpoint...Very well said.

Concise, punchy, accurate.

(er..."punchy"? Sometimes the language just slaps ya on the back of the head, no?)

Ron Tisdale
08-14-2007, 11:35 AM
Hey, as long as it's not the mat slapping me on the back of the head, I'm ok... :D

B,
R (or even the front of the head...OUCH!)

CitoMaramba
08-14-2007, 12:30 PM
For the history of the "Philippine Combat Aikido Federation" now "Tapondo", founded by Monching Gavileno, see here (http://www.geocities.com/emcampos/history.html)

Now more on topic is the history of the Philippine Martial Arts Combat Aikido (PHIMACA), who are on the video in the original post and entirely unrelated to the above.
from their website: http://www.phimaca.org/:

it was established on the 3rd day of July 1997 by Grandmaster Enrico P. Tamayo (EPT), who was then a 3rd Dan black belt of PHILCOMA (Philippine Combat and Martial Arts Association) .... He, who was a former instructor of PHILCOMA decided to form his own group so he can bring out various techniques in Combat Martial Arts. Combining his own style in Combat Aikido.

Okaaay.. so we have someone ranked 3rd Dan in a non-Aikido martial art (PHILCOMA) deciding to break away and form his own group and he decides to add "Aikido" to the name..

Curiouser and curiouser..

jennifer paige smith
08-14-2007, 05:44 PM
For the history of the "Philippine Combat Aikido Federation" now "Tapondo", founded by Monching Gavileno, see here (http://www.geocities.com/emcampos/history.html)

Now more on topic is the history of the Philippine Martial Arts Combat Aikido (PHIMACA), who are on the video in the original post and entirely unrelated to the above.
from their website: http://www.phimaca.org/:

Okaaay.. so we have someone ranked 3rd Dan in a non-Aikido martial art (PHILCOMA) deciding to break away and form his own group and he decides to add "Aikido" to the name..

Curiouser and curiouser..

I'll be interested to see 1) if his training travels closer to the traditional aikikai 'brand' that we are familiar with 2) if he simply maintains the same training he was undergoing or 3) if he innovates in a new direction and that potentially might even inspire (gotta be an optimist now and again).

Curiouser and curiouser. Me, too.

Thanks for the info links.

You know, I gotta say, The thing that stands out as 'missing' in this aikido are the instructions of the founder and the philosophical guidelines, or Doka, that he left for us to contemplate about aikidos purpose, being and nature. To me, these are such a huge part of my training I don't know how you can get around them unless you were training with someone who, otherwise, held in their hands the fabric of the universe. nd this does happen and it is possible. I simply don't see any references to such things on the sites presented.
What are your thoughts on this, Cito? Anyone else?
Thanks

Ian Cottrill
08-15-2007, 12:26 AM
Aikido ? It's nothing like my understanding of the art of Aikido.
Oh, & I hope any attackers of mine come at me like that.
Practise it if you will, put your heart & soul into it if it takes your fancy, but PLEASE don't call it AIKIDO.

Amir Krause
08-15-2007, 01:46 AM
I have one basic question, considering that Aikido is a generic name. What would make a M.A. part of the Aikido family?

And please, leave out the idea of connection to Ueshiba. It does not hold water in the historical sense (search this forum if you wish to realize why, below a few links).

I had the same question here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9508

Personally, the only answer I can give is - I know it when I see it. But, given this answer, many legitmate Aikido Dojo may find themselves out of my list, and many Dojos belonging to other M.A. (from Judo and jujutsu to Kong-Gu) might be included. Since the thing I recognize is some approach to "AiKi" and is not really unique to good Aikido.

Amir

Some preliminary links about history:

And we already had a lot of historical discussions, see (I tried to choose one post from a thread, describing my point):
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=149376&postcount=17
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=109151&postcount=9
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=129953&postcount=79

You can find more information in the lectures here:
http://www.freewebs.com/aikido/lecture/

Or in the following discussion I had in Aiki-Journal:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9889

CitoMaramba
08-15-2007, 10:41 AM
I'll be interested to see 1) if his training travels closer to the traditional aikikai 'brand' that we are familiar with 2) if he simply maintains the same training he was undergoing or 3) if he innovates in a new direction and that potentially might even inspire (gotta be an optimist now and again).
Curiouser and curiouser. Me, too.

Hi Jen,

I think it's clear from the video that 1) is out..
2) is possible, but if so, why did he break away from his original organization? Politics?
3) is also highly unlikely, at least from what we can see.
In any case the original founder of PHIMACA has passed away and it is up to his succesors to make innovations (if any)

You know, I gotta say, The thing that stands out as 'missing' in this aikido are the instructions of the founder and the philosophical guidelines, or Doka, that he left for us to contemplate about aikidos purpose, being and nature. To me, these are such a huge part of my training I don't know how you can get around them unless you were training with someone who, otherwise, held in their hands the fabric of the universe. nd this does happen and it is possible. I simply don't see any references to such things on the sites presented.
What are your thoughts on this, Cito? Anyone else?
Thanks

For me the bigger question here is, who has the right to call their art "Aikido"? We cannot even say that there has to be a connection to Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei as Amir has pointed out, given that there is Korindo Aikido of Minoru Hirai, and Nihon Goshin Aikido of Shodo Morita. Both of these arts have historical reasons for using the name "Aikido", even without a linear connection to O-Sensei.
Can PHIMACA make a similar historical justification?
Here's a quote from another PHIMACA Website http://www.freewebs.com/phimaca/dojo.htm

Note: It is important to note that Phimaca Combat is just a name and what is really important is the training and the growth into a complete martial artist.

Okaay.. so I'm not legally liable if I sell you a laptop computer and it turns out to be an etch-a-sketch? After all.. it's just a name..

Darren
08-15-2007, 11:21 AM
They did

gregg block
08-16-2007, 01:04 PM
[QUOTE=Rupert Atkinson;186277 They train in a similar way in Korea and while it may not look alive or real, the people doing it are about as tough as tough as tough can be - a Karate approach to Jujutsu, if you like. In that sense, they are probably more martial than the average aikidoka, in my opinion.?[/QUOTE]

Probrably more martial than the average aikidoka? I think not. I trained for many years in Korean martial arts before aikido and trained with many tough guys. Trust me these dont look like them to me.

arderljohn
08-17-2007, 09:34 AM
me and myself, never understand what are they trying to become...shame to them! Using the name "AIKIDO". I believe they don't even know what is the meaning of these word.

villrg0a
08-28-2007, 10:51 PM
Hello All:

First off, I linked the PHIMACA video to inform other aikidokas about this new group. I was following another thread prior to upload http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13042 and it made me think.

I have no ill feelings about this group, but just the same would like to find out if there is really indeed an aikido in what they are doing, as it says so in their name. Since they made the video public by uploading it to "youtube", I figure it would be ok to post them here.

After reading thread comments from different aikido communities from around the world, things are much clearer to me now.

Aikido is about life preservation for both defender & attacker, we study them as a martial art to defend ourselves, as a cardio vascular exercise to keep up with work related stress, to develop our inner energy to aid us in our old age, to cleanse our spirit and be a better citizen to the community, and much much more.

We dont do aikido to learn how to kill, instead we harmonize or blend to deflect, throw, or control, and that's it. If part of the syllabus involves lethal strikes, then I dont see reason why one should call it aikido. But that is just my humble opinion, and hey this is the internet, we have all the freedom to speak and express our opinion.

If somebody else disagrees, they are also entitled to their own opinion.

Cheers!

Amir Krause
08-29-2007, 07:51 AM
Hello All:

Aikido is about life preservation for both defender & attacker, we study them as a martial art to defend ourselves, as a cardio vascular exercise to keep up with work related stress, to develop our inner energy to aid us in our old age, to cleanse our spirit and be a better citizen to the community, and much much more.

We dont do aikido to learn how to kill, instead we harmonize or blend to deflect, throw, or control, and that's it. If part of the syllabus involves lethal strikes, then I dont see reason why one should call it aikido. But that is just my humble opinion, and hey this is the internet, we have all the freedom to speak and express our opinion.



I don't know, perhaps all the things you wrote about are relevant for Ueshiba Aikido, though I doubt it. But, it is definitely not true for Korindo Aikido. Some of the techniques we learn could prove lethal for an assailant (such as neck/head locks and strangulation techniques).

In fact, I doubt you could use your claim for Ueshiba Aikido either, last time I checked, a common technique in all Aikido styles is to hit an attacker with the largest object in the environment -the planet Earth. This hit has been proven to be very lethal to unskilled opponents (I once read an article indicating Aikido was the most lethal M.A. to university students in Japan at the 70s, apparently lots of enthusiasm and very limited Ukemi skill are not good for the health of Uke, if it can happen as an accident, what may happen in real life encounter?).

Amir

villrg0a
08-29-2007, 08:47 AM
I don't know, perhaps all the things you wrote about are relevant for Ueshiba Aikido, though I doubt it. But, it is definitely not true for Korindo Aikido. Some of the techniques we learn could prove lethal for an assailant (such as neck/head locks and strangulation techniques).

In fact, I doubt you could use your claim for Ueshiba Aikido either, last time I checked, a common technique in all Aikido styles is to hit an attacker with the largest object in the environment -the planet Earth. This hit has been proven to be very lethal to unskilled opponents (I once read an article indicating Aikido was the most lethal M.A. to university students in Japan at the 70s, apparently lots of enthusiasm and very limited Ukemi skill are not good for the health of Uke, if it can happen as an accident, what may happen in real life encounter?).

If what you say is true, then my previous JKD & Karate training can also be called aikido because "some of the techniques we learned could prove lethal for an assailant (such as neck/head locks and strangulation techniques)". The last time I checked, driving your elbow into ukes spine was not part of the 150 basic aikido techniques.

If lethal strikes are usual to aikido (but I thought they were called atemi), then other martial arts esp. striking ones than employs deadly strikes can be also called aikido then?

Amir Krause
08-29-2007, 11:02 AM
Sorry, but I don't get your logic.

The fact that Aikido does have lethal techniques, does not make any other M.A. which has lethal techniques paert of Aikido, nor vice-versa.

Amir

villrg0a
08-29-2007, 11:44 AM
Sorry Amir, I am confused with yours too :) But going back to the subject video, can you please tell me based from what you see if it is aikido or something else.

Thanks.

Vincent Munoz
08-29-2007, 11:39 PM
I really don't want to say something about this group because I have some friends who are their members.

But as a religious traditional aikidokas, I cannot kept my mouth shut.

For me, I think their founder just use the popularity of aikido plus the word "combat" to sell it to some freshmen. Businesswise... to gather more members. They even brag their quick promotion to shodan (less than a year I think). It's a clear marketing strategy.

12 years ago(1998), I visited the Quiapo(Manila) branch of Philippine Combat Aikido(now tapondo), I was having conversation with Charles Gaveleno(son of Monching Gaveleno). He admitted to me that they just added the word "combat" for business purposes. They then modified some of aikido techniques.

Tapondo is not related to PHIMACA.

I was supposed to visit Omar Camar, Sensei(founder of Phil. Aikikai) who has a dojo in the same building. Unfortunately, the group of Omar Camar Sensei was out for a promotion party in the beach. I then visited PCA dojo. There I met Charles, sensei.

Combining the words "combat" and "aikido" alone is a mistake. if you translate it to simple english.. it's COMBAT LOVE AND HARMONY. does that make sense? I think the founder was a former traditional aikidoka who didn't gain deeper understanding of the real essense of aikido. Leave early and create his own.

For me, even if you move like traditional aikidokas, if you don't have the real aikido in your heart... IT'S NOT AIKIDO AT ALL.

Domo...

Vincent Munoz
08-29-2007, 11:43 PM
Amir,
An aikidoka don't do ukemi in real life encounter. They just execute ukemi in the dojo to help the nage learn their techniques.

Amir Krause
08-30-2007, 04:48 AM
Amir,
An aikidoka don't do ukemi in real life encounter. They just execute ukemi in the dojo to help the nage learn their techniques.

Obviously, this only means the potential for lethality of Aikido Techniques in real life encounters is higher...
Which invalidates the argument about Aikido being dentified via its non-lethal nature.

Sorry Amir, I am confused with yours too But going back to the subject video, can you please tell me based from what you see if it is aikido or something else.

Thanks.
As I tried to explain in my previous message, Aikido is a generic name. And I have yet to find any real criteria defining the genere.

Amir

Amir

villrg0a
08-30-2007, 05:38 AM
"As I tried to explain in my previous message, Aikido is a generic name. And I have yet to find any real criteria defining the genere."

Hello again Amir. As you have yet to find any real criteria for the subject, am I correct to assume that you mean they are not doing aikido?

I am aware of the potential damage aikido can do in real life, but thats another subject all in all, meanwhile let us stick with the video.

Amir Krause
08-30-2007, 06:01 AM
Hello again Amir. As you have yet to find any real criteria for the subject, am I correct to assume that you mean they are not doing aikido?


The video looks like some modern Jujutsu style, or Karate, and not so much like Aikido.

But, as I wrote previously, anyone can invent any new M.A. and use the term Aikido in it, and there is nothing that can be said against him, since the name is generic and I do not know of any definition (see another thread about this which failed measurably).

Amir

villrg0a
08-30-2007, 01:48 PM
Yeah, to each his own. Thanks Amir.

But if I am the leader and I know it is not aikido, and the syllabus is more or less being influenced by say jujitsu, and still insisted on putting the name aikido, is this sort of intentionally misleading people or students? Because they know the club name has an aikido label, the unsuspected students honestly believe it is really aikido?

Well, they can do what they want to do for all I care. But are they not damaging the "generic" name of aikido as you call it? Because as you said, the video looks like some modern jujitsu or karate but not much of an aikido.

Wikipedia says, and please note the last sentence:

Aikido (合気道, aikidō?), is a Japanese martial art developed by Morihei Ueshiba as a synthesis of his martial studies, philosophy, and religious beliefs. Aikido is often translated as "the Way of unifying (with) life energy" [1] or as "the Way of harmonious spirit." [2] Ueshiba's goal was to create an art practitioners could use to defend themselves while also protecting their attacker from injury.

Aikido is primarily a grappling art in which attacks are neutralised with various types of throws or joint locks.[3] Aikido techniques are intended to be implemented after first blending with the motion of the attacker, so that the defender may redirect the attacker's momentum without directly opposing it, thus using minimum effort.

Aikido derives mainly from the martial art of Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu, but began to diverge from it in the late 1920s, partly due to Ueshiba's involvement with the Ōmoto-kyō religion. Many of Ueshiba's senior students have different approaches to aikido, depending on when they studied with him. Today, aikido is found all over the world in a number of styles, with a broad range of interpretation and emphasis. However, they all share techniques learned from Ueshiba and a caring for the well-being of the attacker.

Dazzler
08-31-2007, 08:42 AM
anyone can invent any new M.A. and use the term Aikido in it, and there is nothing that can be said against him, since the name is generic and I do not know of any definition (see another thread about this which failed measurably).

Amir

Many have done exactly this.

What they call Aikido is not what I call Aikido.

Ai-Ki-Dao.

It is a description and details what one is practicing towards.

If you believe it is just a name that is fine, you will never have Aikido you will just have techniques.

Vincent Munoz
09-03-2007, 12:09 AM
Maybe japan has to do something for this issue. Maybe they should do something like a copyright to the phrase "aikido". Uniting all the traditional aikido organizations like aikikai, yoshinkan etc. so that they can sue all the other group whose using the phrase aikido without the permission from the umbrella organization. Aikido became a part of Japanese culture so i think the Japanese government should support this suggestion especially that aikido is being taught to japanese police. Make it international law. I don't know if this is possible, i just thought about it. That way, misuse of the word aikido will be avoided. Like McDonald or Kentucky Fried Chicken, you cannot use it anywhere if you don't get a franchise.

What do you think aikiweb?

Vincent Munoz
09-03-2007, 12:11 AM
if you get a franchise to McDonald and Kentucky, you also have to make sure you meet the correct international standard to avoid destroying the name.

what do you think aikiweb?

Amir Krause
09-03-2007, 01:33 AM
Wikipedia says, and please note the last sentence:

Aikido (合気道, aikidō?), is a Japanese martial art developed by Morihei Ueshiba as a synthesis of his martial studies, philosophy, and religious beliefs. Aikido is often translated as "the Way of unifying (with) life energy" [1] or as "the Way of harmonious spirit." [2] Ueshiba's goal was to create an art practitioners could use to defend themselves while also protecting their attacker from injury.

Aikido is primarily a grappling art in which attacks are neutralised with various types of throws or joint locks.[3] Aikido techniques are intended to be implemented after first blending with the motion of the attacker, so that the defender may redirect the attacker's momentum without directly opposing it, thus using minimum effort.

Aikido derives mainly from the martial art of Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu, but began to diverge from it in the late 1920s, partly due to Ueshiba's involvement with the Ōmoto-kyō religion. Many of Ueshiba's senior students have different approaches to aikido, depending on when they studied with him. Today, aikido is found all over the world in a number of styles, with a broad range of interpretation and emphasis. However, they all share techniques learned from Ueshiba and a caring for the well-being of the attacker.

Look at my first post in this thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=186448&postcount=37) . The Wikipedia term is simply wrong. The name Aikido is not unique to M.A. derived from Ueshiba. As I explained in the links there, I myself learn Korindo Aikido which does not derive from Ueshiba, yet the M.A. I learn has every historical right to be called Aikido (again, look at the previous links for the explanation).

Of the definition above, I could only agree with:
"Aikido is primarily a grappling art in which attacks are neutralized with various types of throws or joint locks.[3] Aikido techniques are intended to be implemented after first blending with the motion of the attacker, so that the defender may redirect the attacker's momentum without directly opposing it, thus using minimum effort.".

Amir

Amir Krause
09-03-2007, 01:46 AM
Maybe japan has to do something for this issue. Maybe they should do something like a copyright to the phrase "aikido". Uniting all the traditional aikido organizations like aikikai, yoshinkan etc. so that they can sue all the other group whose using the phrase aikido without the permission from the umbrella organization. Aikido became a part of Japanese culture so i think the Japanese government should support this suggestion especially that aikido is being taught to japanese police. Make it international law. I don't know if this is possible, i just thought about it. That way, misuse of the word aikido will be avoided. Like McDonald or Kentucky Fried Chicken, you cannot use it anywhere if you don't get a franchise.

What do you think aikiweb?

Look in the history of aikiweb, somebody suggested such an idea. And lots of people already explained to him the weaknesses and problems such concepts create. Not to speak of the simple fact that the term\name AIKIDO was defined by the Jpanese Dai-Nihon-Butokukai as a generic term first, and only later Ueshiba adopted the name for his M.A. and a while after him Hirai (Korindo Aikido founder, who was head of the term coining committee) adopted the name too.

The problem with such an idea, is it forces lots of politics and intervention into the M.A., making it impossible to innovate, and making personal feuds grow way beyond proportion:
The politics of who sets the criteria, and who examines they are withheld.
The handling of exceptions (such as Korindo Aikido).
The organizational system to allow new teachers to announce they teach the M.A. in question (what happens if there is a senior teacher in the same area who would not like competition? what if a teacher is disliked because he preferred to invite one Shihan and not another? )
This all leads to a corrupt and inefficient system, encouraging protection instead of quality.

Amir

PeterR
09-03-2007, 01:52 AM
Well actually if you look into the sub article on Aikido styles - Korindo aikido is addresed but in a wikipedia article the first few paragraphs are a general synopsis - not meant to cover every single nuance. To the vast majority of people Aikido does mean a line of transmission through Ueshiba.

Is Real Aikido aikido?

Amir Krause
09-03-2007, 01:55 AM
Many have done exactly this.

What they call Aikido is not what I call Aikido.

Ai-Ki-Dao.

It is a description and details what one is practicing towards.

If you believe it is just a name that is fine, you will never have Aikido you will just have techniques.

You can have the M.A. way if you are willing to accept it!

Not because of some meaning you (or I) attach to this or that name, but because you (or I) choose to follow a certain route.

It is not the name which is important, it is practicing with full mind and taking your practice back home with you, trying to act like you practice.

My teacher like to tell a story of a visitor to the enlightened Zen master:
Visitor to Master- "I am told you know were God resides".
Master (humbly) - "Yes"
Visitor - "Then why don't you tell your students ???"
Master - "I point my finger and show them, but they keep their looks at the tip of the finger"

The name is like the pointing finger - indication for a certain direction, not the direction itself.

Amir

Amir Krause
09-03-2007, 02:08 AM
Is Real Aikido aikido?

We just had a long thread here trying to define Aikido. As far as I saw, it had only students of Ueshiba Aikido, yet they could not find a definition.

Without a definition, how can you make a clear and undisputable decision.

I could say the video does not look like Aikido to me, since I have not seen any "Aiki" in the video and all I saw was few crude Ju-Jutsu techniques, the like of which I have seen in many M.A. and quite a few of the solutions they presented were not in the Aikido "technical spirit" I have seen in other styles.
But, all the above only points to my own preferences, it does not point to some global definitive scientific distinction.
(And I refer only to the Video, since for all I know, the actual practice is totally different)

Amir

villrg0a
09-03-2007, 09:19 AM
Rest assure Amir, it's the same as was quoted before - it's kata based.

I am just a little lost at this "generic" term here. I have a headache, and if I go to the drug store and ask for mefenamic acid, they could give me 10 different brands to choose from. Although they share the same active main ingredient, other sub-ingredients could be different from each brand. They are available in caplets or tablets. and at times ampules/vials in cases of injectables. I am talking about legitimate and expensive brands here.

But then there are also the same medicines (same brand) that are being counterfeited and being sold OTC, and could be very hard to tell from the original including packaging. The only difference is the active ingredient, it says 10mg on the box, but probably only contains 25% of the active ingredient.

Now going back to aikido as being generic, can it be called aikido even though it only contains a partial of the active ingredient? I guess so, but what if it does not have the active ingredient? What is the active ingredient in aikido? Is it harmony? Is it the Ueshiba bloodline?

Although Aikido is generic as it can be, IMHO the active ingredient should be identified, and probably put some measure into it. I dont know, I am just a student. Maybe somebody else out there can explore this subject further.

Maybe as Amir said said "Of the definition above, I could only agree with:
"Aikido is primarily a grappling art in which attacks are neutralized with various types of throws or joint locks.[3] Aikido techniques are intended to be implemented after first blending with the motion of the attacker, so that the defender may redirect the attacker's momentum without directly opposing it, thus using minimum effort.".

Could they be the active ingredient, that was not present in the subject video?

villrg0a
09-03-2007, 10:09 AM
Amir said: Look at my first post in this thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=37) . The Wikipedia term is simply wrong. The name Aikido is not unique to M.A. derived from Ueshiba. As I explained in the links there, I myself learn Korindo Aikido which does not derive from Ueshiba, yet the M.A. I learn has every historical right to be called Aikido (again, look at the previous links for the explanation).

Aikido journal said from an interview with Gozo Shioda Kancho:
Shioda Sensei: Mr. Osawa commuted to the dojo. Mr. Tohei was a student at Keio University shortly before I left the dojo. He was practicing judo and two of his seniors, Mori, a captain of the Keio Judo Club at the time, and Umeda, a competitor in the student judo championships, were practicing at the Ueshiba dojo.

, Shigemi Yonekawa, Zenzaburo Akazawa, and all of the early uchideshi had to enter military service and so only the older people were left in the dojo. [B]Mr. Minoru Hirai [founder of Korindo] was handling the office. Since the young people had disappeared, whenever Ueshiba Sensei was invited to give a demonstration, he would take Mr. Hirai with him and he established many contacts in this way. Apparently Hirai used to teach in Roppongi. (Gozo Shioda / Aiki News 93, Fall of 1992 / pg. 11).

I'm totally new to Korindo and have absolutely no idea about it except from what Amir has stated. Is this the same Korindo Aikido that you are saying Amir?

Amir Krause
09-03-2007, 04:15 PM
It is the same Korindo Aikido.

Hirai did have contact with Ueshiba, but he did not consider Ueshiba as his main source of insipiration, nor did he think of himself as following in Ueshiba footsteps. Hirai was a M.A. expert and teacher before he met Ueshiba, and he had already started to develop his own unique way.

You can also read the message I wrote in A.J. trying to explain this as I understand it:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9889&highlight=

Amir

villrg0a
09-03-2007, 10:53 PM
Thanks Amir.

esguerar
05-10-2008, 01:04 AM
Don't think so...... Pretty uniforms though.... hee hee!

Too many people using the word "aikido" these days to add some sort of credibility to what they are doing..... why don't they just call it Phillippine Self Defence and leave out the "Aikido"
Tony

I am very much agree with Attilio Anthony's comments

esguerar
05-10-2008, 01:10 AM
Maybe japan has to do something for this issue. Maybe they should do something like a copyright to the phrase "aikido". Uniting all the traditional aikido organizations like aikikai, yoshinkan etc. so that they can sue all the other group whose using the phrase aikido without the permission from the umbrella organization. Aikido became a part of Japanese culture so i think the Japanese government should support this suggestion especially that aikido is being taught to japanese police. Make it international law. I don't know if this is possible, i just thought about it. That way, misuse of the word aikido will be avoided. Like McDonald or Kentucky Fried Chicken, you cannot use it anywhere if you don't get a franchise.

What do you think aikiweb?
I agree with you Vincent Munoz

esguerar
05-10-2008, 01:25 AM
I agree with you Vincent Munoz

wrong reply

esguerar
05-10-2008, 02:00 AM
Yes, nothing to do with Aikido, really. I think they just copied some and execution is not right, it's not dynamic.:crazy:

Enrique Antonio Reyes
06-07-2008, 04:13 AM
I like that robot uke.

"Play dead! Roll over! Ok now hold still for a second while I finish this technique...almost there...ok now play dead again!!"

Ha ha...nice description...I actually pity the Uke. Got hit by some hard knees and elbows during the presentation...totally unnecessary...

looks more like karate mixed with some jujitsu...

Seems to be that the founder of this art studied in Aikido...found it weak so he incorporated strikes as well as removed some dynamic movements...the result karate + jujitsu...

I like the shrieks of the tori though...gives me the heebeejeebees...

natasha cebek
06-09-2008, 07:50 AM
elit·ism
Pronunciation:
\ā-ˈlē-ˌti-zəm, i-, ē-\
Function:
noun
Date:
1947
1: leadership or rule by an elite
2: the selectivity of the elite; especially : snobbery <elitism in choosing new members>
3: consciousness of being or belonging to an elite
— elit·ist \-ˈlē-tist\ noun or adjective

tedehara
06-09-2008, 03:39 PM
Maybe japan has to do something for this issue. Maybe they should do something like a copyright to the phrase "aikido". Uniting all the traditional aikido organizations like aikikai, yoshinkan etc. so that they can sue all the other group whose using the phrase aikido without the permission from the umbrella organization. Aikido became a part of Japanese culture so i think the Japanese government should support this suggestion especially that aikido is being taught to japanese police. Make it international law. I don't know if this is possible, i just thought about it. That way, misuse of the word aikido will be avoided. Like McDonald or Kentucky Fried Chicken, you cannot use it anywhere if you don't get a franchise.

What do you think aikiweb?Can't be done. The reason why is because the word Aikido is in the public domain. It's origins do not lie within any particular aikido organization.

McDonald's cannot trademark the name Hamburger. KFC cannot trademark the product name of Chicken. That is why McDonald's spends millions promoting the Big Mac® and KFC promotes it's Original Recipe®. Besides we all have bigger Filet-O-Fish® to fry.

natasha cebek
06-09-2008, 04:10 PM
Oh brother...

Randy Sexton
06-10-2008, 09:56 AM
I agree with Ledyard Sensei and who knows better than him!
As a Taekwondo stylist I recognize this as a classic two-step sparring technique with one person attacking and the other counterattacking. There are thousands of variations but the same theme. As an Aikido trained martial artist I have had to learn to constantly be aware of controlling my and uke centers to perform any technique and the emphasis on smooth almost effortless motion with a sense of ki flow. This is classic hard style with some joint locks, a few throws, mixed with hand and foot strikes. Label it as Taekwondo, Hapkido, or Karate and I''ll believe it to be properly labelled. To label this as Aikido is to not understand basic concepts of Aikido.
I noted that on the side videos there was a video labelled "Nishio Sensei" at a an Aikido friendship session. I must admit I have not heard of him since I have only been in Aikido for 15 months but I wanted to compare another "Aikido" video. Wow! What a difference! That is Aikido! Flowing, a master of balance and control, and a sense of tremendous power using locks and throws at leisure. The sword work was beautiful to watch. A master of Aikido. A picture is worth a thousand words.
I am only a novice at Aikido but I know it when I see it and the first video ain't it!!

Doc:cool:

d2l
06-11-2008, 01:01 PM
I'm just now getting around to watching this video. To me, it does look an awful lot like Tae Kwon Do and some Jiu-Jitsu thrown in. One thing that disturbed me about this video, was when Nage either didn't think to, or allowed Uke to retain the knife. You will note in a few instances where Uke still has possession of the weapon even when the technique has been executed. Nage doesn't really try and disarm Uke and/or retreat. Just my 2 cents. :)

ramenboy
06-11-2008, 01:15 PM
wow. didn't see anything resembling even jujutsu, let alone aikido

but to me, they probably used the name 'aikido' because its popular right now... just like some mcdojos list a whole roster of MAs but teach one ugly hybrid.

maybe in the future it will be renamed 'combat mixed martial arts' because of the growing popularity of MMA

Enrique Antonio Reyes
06-12-2008, 06:51 AM
wow. didn't see anything resembling even jujutsu, let alone aikido

but to me, they probably used the name 'aikido' because its popular right now... just like some mcdojos list a whole roster of MAs but teach one ugly hybrid.

maybe in the future it will be renamed 'combat mixed martial arts' because of the growing popularity of MMA

I agree completely.

shadowedge
07-07-2008, 06:54 AM
Finally, the opportunity to get this off my chest.

Before Anything else, I am a Filipino, and I've been studying Aikido since 2001. I've studied under a number of different sensei, because I had to move a lot in the last few years. (But just to name a few, I've studied under Ernesto Talag Sensei in 2005, and under the Las Pinas branch of Omar Camar Sensei's Dojo in 2007). But my first Sensei, Victor Lagdar, told me of a story about Tapondo and Combat Aikido.

Sensei was very outspoken about his resentment for Combat Aikido and Tapondo. He mentioned that one of the founders (im not sure which, T or CA) was supposedly trained under Tohei Sensei during the 60's. The said person (Im also not sure if it was Mr. Gavelino) didn't finish the training / or did not meet Tohei Sensei's standards, but went on to create his own version of the art.

They had dojos with the name "Combat Aikido" and went on to teach the art since. They've had strong ties with different military/police groups and during the late 70 - 80's they gained strong ties to the local film industry beacuse of a popular action star (Fernando Poe Jr) who trained under them.

Now Sensei told me that around the late 90's some important people from Japan noticed them and, I dunno gave them a warning or something about the name. So they changed it to Tapondo.

This was my first sensei's account of what happened (he's in his mid 70's). i have heard similar versions of the Story from my other sensei ~ with small differences of course.

I don't know how accurate these accounts are. Different places I've visited on the web tell otherwise. I was initially planning to start a thread about this because just a half hour ago I saw on the news that a new TV Series is featuring Tapondo as its main combat style (Codname: Asero). And they went on to proclaim how "Filipino" the Art was because it originated from "Combat Aikido."

Personally, It saddens me to see that some dojos here have to label the word "Traditional" next to Aikido just so people don't confuse it with "CA" or "T". As an Aikidoka, I believe that Osensei's teachings are integral to the study of Aikido. And without the harmony and love aspect, i just can't accept it as Aikido.

Whew! That was a mouthful. Thanks for putting up the thread! :)

Mato-san
07-07-2008, 09:01 AM
It is a very low level hapkido/filipino knife fighting hybrid. Basically someones wet dream. Kind of an insult to the very effective knife fighting systems already in place in the Philippines.

Enrique Antonio Reyes
07-08-2008, 05:29 AM
Hi Rene. I completely understand. When I tell people I'm doing Aikido they usually assume that its "Combat Aikido".

I just wish that they just used Tapondo from the very beginning.

I remember them being featured in a television show long ago. the founder made the demonstration himself.

There was a rumor that one of the founder's son entered the URCC (a local version of UFC). I heard he got beat up real bad (I'm not sure tho).

Its all about commercial success I guess. Its all about the money.

One-Aiki,

Iking