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AikiWeb System
08-10-2007, 09:38 AM
AikiWeb Poll for the week of August 5, 2007:

Is there such a thing as "bad" aikido to you?

I don't do aikido
Yes
No


Here are the current results (http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=389).

Mary Turner
08-10-2007, 05:18 PM
I want to clarify:

I think there is badly executed or interpreted aikido.

Chuck Clark
08-10-2007, 06:28 PM
How can you have positive aspects of anything without the opposite that makes up the whole? Of course we then get into the semantics that define aiki, do, good, bad, etc.. In other language all is ONE and we just come up with all the variations to suit ourselves at any given time. We have comparing minds and we must learn to live with it and each other.

Amelia Smith
08-10-2007, 06:42 PM
Bad aikido comes in many forms -- ineffective and insensitive are the two that spring to mind right away.

gregg block
08-10-2007, 07:24 PM
There are no bad martial arts just bad teachers and practitioners. The question should not be " Is there such a thing as "bad" aikido to you?" It should be are there martial artists (aikido practitioners included) that suck? My answer to this question would be a resounding yes! There is sooo much crap out there. Of course I'm not sure how those that suck might respond!

CNYMike
08-10-2007, 08:27 PM
I voted no. It's all good; everything has something to offer, although it may take a while to figure out what it is.

maxwelljones
08-10-2007, 08:38 PM
I know there's bad aikido, because I know my aikido is bad. It's not my fault, I just don't have the experience.

Nafis Zahir
08-10-2007, 09:35 PM
I voted yes. I know there are people who don't have alot of experience, but that doesn't mean you have bad aikido. There are alot of people out there who don't teach properly and don't train properly. You also have a large political faction out there, that wants to deal in having a large amount of high ranking students/ teachers, and those promotion come rapidly. But along the way, effective and true form of Aikido is never taught, and the people become habitual in this type of training and then pass it along to others. Thus, we do have bad aikido. I'm sure many of the other people who voted yes, have either seen this type of thing going on, or experienced it at some of the many seminars they have been to.

L. Camejo
08-11-2007, 05:12 AM
This poll should have had a "Hell Yeah" option.

But I guess yes would have to do. :D

Mary Eastland
08-11-2007, 05:17 AM
I voted no....I feel that people can have bad attitudes and I might not like what others may be doing but that does not make it bad.

Aikido to me is a positve force....pure and unsullied.

Mary

Mark Uttech
08-11-2007, 08:38 AM
The late Hikisutchi sensei once said, "when you see good aikido, you know what bad aikido is." O Sensei did not want aikido taught to thugs and hooligans. That is two takes or two angles, on the subject right there. Difficult subject.

In gassho,

Mark

MikeLogan
08-11-2007, 09:39 AM
I will offer that there is both bad aikido, such as Mary intended to inquire upon, and then there is bad aikido, being more readily associated with concepts such as a bad moon, or better yet, bad medicine. :D
There is more of the first than the second, though.

cheers,
michael.

David Yap
08-11-2007, 11:36 AM
I voted yes. When I started with just one instructor, aikido was just aikido. Having trained with more than one instructor, I realised indeed that that there is such a thing as a "bad" aikido in terms of the interpretation of the art and the attitudes/personalities of the instructors.

My advice is that: when you have reached a proficient level in the art then it is about time you start training with others outside your dojo. Aikido being such a "cultist" art, you may end up doing 10~20years or more doing "bad" aikido without realising it. My experience is that I was doing "good" and effortless aikido when another instructor showed me that I should be using brute strength instead. For me, that is time to move on.

David Y

SeiserL
08-11-2007, 03:35 PM
Bad/wrong as opposed to what I think is good/right?
Not really.
Some doesn't impress or interest me, but does that mean its bad?
Not really.

Okay, okay,
if you have ever seen me do Aikido,
now that's bad.

salim
08-11-2007, 11:09 PM
Being honest about what works and what doesn't work in Aikido is crucial to answering this question. Real application needs to be applied, not demonstration, which tell you nothing about effectiveness. Great example found on this link.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=i1w-8XhXutI

Dirk Hanss
08-12-2007, 01:05 AM
Both answers are the same.
Of course, there are aikido students and teachers, who perform aikido without effectivesness, ithout sensitivity or with bad attitude, eg violently. And you can call this "bad aikido".

But in reality, if it is bad, it is not aikido.

Those guys (including me) have either not gine far enough on their way or just took the wrong track - in the meaning of DO.

Best regards

Dirk

kironin
08-12-2007, 01:13 AM
Being honest about what works and what doesn't work in Aikido is crucial to answering this question. Real application needs to be applied, not demonstration, which tell you nothing about effectiveness. Great example found on this link.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=i1w-8XhXutI

Actually that video is a perfect case of one form of bad aikido.

All that video demonstrates is two guys jacking around making the same mistakes over and over and getting further and further from any insights related to aikido.

Amir Krause
08-12-2007, 01:28 AM
Well

I am not sure about the expression "Bad Aikido" but if one means a dojo where the way the teacher and senior practitioners practice look awful, then I would have to vote a very strong positive.

Particularly since I recently saw such a place.
Just a few examples of the things I considered bad:
Almost everyone bending their backs in basic techniques.
Performing some strange throws in the end of which Tori fall is much worse the Uke (Tori fell on his face, Uke could fall on his back).
Randori in which all started moving too soon. It was a grab randri - grab tori hand dynamically and he will throw you somehow. The Tori left only their hands stationary and moved their bodies out of line long before Uke arrived within grabbing\striking distance - As Uke I would have punched them all in the back.
I am not talking of long and complicated movements, while I dislike those in most cases, I have seen some who actually do them well, and have found such techniques might not be practical but does have a methodical value.

Amir

Tony Wagstaffe
08-12-2007, 08:16 AM
Yep, there sure is.... That's why a lot of other M.A. fraternities out there diss it so much! The collusion has to end somewhere....;)
Tony

salim
08-12-2007, 09:50 AM
Actually that video is a perfect case of one form of bad aikido.

All that video demonstrates is two guys jacking around making the same mistakes over and over and getting further and further from any insights related to aikido.

You missed the point totally. This video is to show what's effective. What techniques will work and what techniques are just unrealistic. It's about self defense, not about accurate technique. Real life application is the goal, real altercations is the focus.

aikidoc
08-12-2007, 03:31 PM
a well known sensei said recently at a seminar after watching some "bad" aikido demonstrated by instructors stated that some can be students of aikido and some can teach. In other words those "teaching" who had demonstrated bad aikido would be better served being students as they had much to learn. As he is fond of saying "dame desu".

kironin
08-12-2007, 06:16 PM
You missed the point totally. This video is to show what's effective. What techniques will work and what techniques are just unrealistic. It's about self defense, not about accurate technique. Real life application is the goal, real altercations is the focus.

No. I did not miss the point totally.

All it shows is where these guys are at and where they are at
is not very far along. They make all sorts of elementary mistakes over and over again that prevents them from being very effective at all.

The idea that this shows "what techniques will work and what techniques are just unrealistic" is total BS, but I do not expect you to see that. Most won't.

salim
08-12-2007, 07:21 PM
No. I did not miss the point totally.

All it shows is where these guys are at and where they are at
is not very far along. They make all sorts of elementary mistakes over and over again that prevents them from being very effective at all.

The idea that this shows "what techniques will work and what techniques are just unrealistic" is total BS, but I do not expect you to see that. Most won't.

Don't take it personal, just be honest. Integrity is more rewarding than emotional fluff. Listen, some techniques in any traditional martial art has it's weakness and is not effective for certain attacks. It's more appealing to test what works and admitting what doesn't work. If you read the posters comments that was his intention, to test what works against certain attacks. Granted there were some errors in technique, but again you missed the point, it's not about technique.

I have competed in several martial arts arenas and know from experience, I'm not speaking about theory. I know what it feels like to defend against several jabs, kicks and take downs.

Trish Greene
08-12-2007, 08:15 PM
I think this has already been said before but bad aikido really depends on what your interpretation of what good aikido is. Technically the moves may be good but emotionally in it's overall execution (mind and spirit working together) might be conflicting too much to be considered "good".

RoyK
08-13-2007, 10:24 AM
The type of mindset that is taught in various schools of Aikido is more important to me than their technical effectiveness, partly because I am in no position to know what would actually work or not, and mostly because I don't see Aikido as purely the sum of its techniques, but rather a tool to achieve something more than a one-touch-kill machine, perhaps a form of evolution of the spirit, or insert-your-favorite-OSensei-ism-here.

While the goal may vary from dojo to dojo, Aikido that is perceived solely as yet another self defense system is my idea of Bad Aikido.

Voted "yes".

JMCavazos
08-13-2007, 03:56 PM
Is there bad aikido? Definitely - Anybody that hurts anyone else doing "aikido", is doing bad aikido..... It's all about protecting your partner, not showing off...

tarik
08-13-2007, 10:05 PM
I can't imagine bad aikido not existing unless one simply chose to describe anything perceived as 'bad aikido' as NOT aikido. I suppose that's a legitimate approach.

The idea that intent is all that matters (and it is important) and that there is no qualitative valuation that can be placed on a practice is rather sad to me (and just not true).

xuzen
08-14-2007, 11:56 AM
Bad aikido; just like judo is when you are trying to do the techniques without first adhering to the principles of kuzushi (off-balancing), tsukuri (fitting in) and kake (proper throw).

Boon.

salim
08-14-2007, 12:57 PM
I dont' want to use the word bad Aikido, because what's Aikido to one is not Aikido to another. I would say at the most, that this is not effective and a major turn off to me.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rG_tnefyOcc

gregg block
08-15-2007, 08:55 AM
Salim Shaw wrote:
Being honest about what works and what doesn't work in Aikido is crucial to answering this question. Real application needs to be applied, not demonstration, which tell you nothing about effectiveness. Great example found on this link.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=i1w-8XhXutI

These guys are a perfect example of bad aikido. Neither even attempt to get off line but attack like kids in the school yard. ,Good thing these guys don't know how to box either or someone might have been seriously injured.