my sensei "video clip" [Archive] - AikiWeb Aikido Forums

Ellis Amdur

08-11-2007, 06:39 PM

Here's a video of Robert Mustard. Notice the crisp precision, without the nastiness at the end. Robert has scary skills, but to the best of my knowledge, has not once had an injury among his students since the opening of his dojo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmndD1pHDaY&mode=related&search=

Takeno Takefumi - R. Mustard taking some of the ukemi. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Y3WZuUtVo&mode=related&search=

FWIW, I consider Takeno the best aikidoka in the world today. He's got a ferocious irimi, brilliant tai-sabki and a tenkan which coupled with a grip, absolutely controls his uke. Like Shioda, he's mastered this kind of whole-body "crack-the-whip" way of exerting power.
Depending on the uke's level of skill, he either:
1. Smacks him down flat, hard and safe, within, but right at the edge of the uke's ability.
2. Moves so fast, with such power, that the uke is helpless. And unlike Shioda or his imitators, with their puckish pleasure in inflicting concussions), Takeno snaps the uke upwards or simply opens out so that, in the former, the uke is brought back from danger and the latter, he/she flies freely into a fall.
Mustard, his personal "project ;) treats his uke's the same way.

Were I young, and passionate about aikido, Takeno, in Japan, would be the person I'd seek out before anyone else. He also is committed to teaching young people, and from all accounts, carries himself with rigorous moral rectitude. R. Mustard is also proof that he can actually teach what he knows.

Best

Don_Modesto

08-12-2007, 02:19 PM

Watching the video several times I did not once see uke head hit the ground.00:16 & 00:17 for sure. Maybe 00:24

Sure it is a hard style but uke's ability was up to the task. Notice that uke got up every time and did not appear to be hurt.At 00:42 Mori actually has to help him up.

Look closer.

dont you guys have better things to do then bag out someone's sensei.So posting that here you expected...what? Unbridled encomia. Effusive ejaculations? Unbecoming flattery.

People think here. If you can't stand the heat...

Kevin Wilbanks

08-12-2007, 02:20 PM

Watching the video several times I did not once see uke head hit the ground. Sure it is a hard style but uke's ability was up to the task. Notice that uke got up every time and did not appear to be hurt.

David.

That's because it is happening so fast and so violently. Look again at the beginning. You can see uke's head bouncing upward violently after his body has already completely landed. One's head would not come up like that if it wasn't bouncing off the ground.

Getting your head bounced off the mat isn't necessarily going to disable you immediately or keep you from getting up, but it can accumulate. Someone posted a record of all the Aikido training deaths up until some time in the 80s and most of them were from head trauma caused by accelerating uke down into the mat repeatedly.

Personally, I don't see the purpose of accelerating someone down once they are falling unless you are trying to hurt them. You already have control of the situation and they are already falling down. Also, I find that being slammed down kinda pisses me off on a gut level, making it seem more likely to escalate a situation than diffuse it.

If you want to do something to someone on the way down, look into Systema. They have a way of hitting you up to several times on the way down that doesn't necessarily cause harm or rile you up.

Adam Alexander

08-12-2007, 02:34 PM

Personally, I don't see the purpose of accelerating someone down once they are falling unless you are trying to hurt them.

Maybe instead of going into why it's so wrong...if you don't know the purpose...maybe you should begin by asking individuals who you'd expect to have understanding of it if they'd be kind enough to explain the reason (in private).

I liked all three clips.

Adam Alexander

08-12-2007, 02:37 PM

People think here. If you can't stand the heat...

I'd say that some people think here. I think it'd be more accurate to say that the great majority try to fit what they see into the box they think within. If something fails to fit that boundary of understanding, they attack it...as demonstrated.

Steven

08-12-2007, 04:29 PM

salim

08-12-2007, 05:08 PM

This demonstration is definitely better. The uke is not simply just running, actually applying more punches.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y

Kevin Wilbanks

08-12-2007, 08:54 PM

I saw nothing in the video that would suggest Mori Sensei purposely attempted to injure his uke, let alone purposely tried to slam his head into the ground. Comments to the contrary are a sign of complete lack of understanding of what is happening in the video. Yes, at the very end it appears uke came down harder than expected however Mori Sensei was not trying to purposely wipe out his uke. If anything, he pull up to prevent injury.

I guess we in the Yoshinkan see this as normal training while others do not. But to say he was purposely trying to injure his uke is just plane absurd.

Now you're getting into the territory of peeing on my head and trying to convince me it's raining. Sorry, but someone who is jumping up in the air and using the combined momentum of their fall and an exaggerated waist bend to accelerate their uke into the mat is not "pulling up".

Also, try rereading my statement or brushing up on your basic logic. Saying that I see no purpose in accelerating uke into the mat like that other than to inflict harm is not the same as saying anyone who does that is trying to inflict harm. It could also be that they are doing it without (what I view as a legitimate) purpose, which I think is more likely.

The fact that you and others, even if there are millions of them, think treating a cooperating uke this way is "normal" makes little difference to me, and does not make it safe or desireable. One of my teachers flatly calls it "unethical" and I agree. There are plenty of striking arts that consider it "normal" to beat their hands forcefully on hard objects until they become barely mobile claws riddled with scar tissue. I don't think that's a good idea either.

xuzen

08-12-2007, 09:48 PM

Yoshinkan no wussies. Love hitting the mat hard... makes one's body tough as adamantine-carbon alloy.

Boon

Steven

08-13-2007, 12:09 AM

Now you're getting into the territory of peeing on my head and trying to convince me it's raining.

Well, being as your profile says you're in Seattle, in part, chances are it is raining eh? :p

Sorry, but someone who is jumping up in the air and using the combined momentum of their fall and an exaggerated waist bend to accelerate their uke into the mat is not "pulling up".

With respect, I still don't see what you're talking about. Guess that's because I've been on the receiving end of such technique and have never been injured or knocked out. 25 years and counting.

Saying that I see no purpose in accelerating uke into the mat like that other than to inflict harm is not the same as saying anyone who does that is trying to inflict harm.

I'll apologize in advance as I may be mis-understanding, but I believe you did say " I can see it appears to be for the express purpose of smacking his uke's head into the mat as hard as possible. Would that not suggest you are saying he is trying to purposely injure his uke?

It could also be that they are doing it without (what I view as a legitimate) purpose, which I think is more likely.

Ummm ... it's a DEMO. Demo's typically are done in a manner different that basic practice, even in the Aikikai. Not to mention these are Mori Sensei's top students and chances are they've done this a million times and have practiced these demo's a million more times to prevent injury. It's called uke trusting shite and shite trusting uke.

The fact that you and others, even if there are millions of them, think treating a cooperating uke this way is "normal" makes little difference to me, and does not make it safe or desireable.

Treating uke in what way? I didn't see uke complaining. In fact he kept getting up and attacking and has practiced for many years. I guess if you never practice like this and simply tank for your instructor, not that I"m saying you do that, then I guess I can see how you think this is not safe or desireable.

One of my teachers flatly calls it "unethical" and I agree. There are plenty of striking arts that consider it "normal" to beat their hands forcefully on hard objects until they become barely mobile claws riddled with scar tissue. I don't think that's a good idea either.

... and mine say it just good training that makes a good demo while keeping both shite and uke safe. As for the "beat the hands forcibly on hard objects" not my cup of tea, to each his own.

I'll close and say again, accusing Mori Sensei of willfully and purposely trying to slam his uke's head on the mat, your words - see above, is just plain silly. Though I'm sure I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

I'm out .. good training to you -- and watch your head. :D

Kevin Wilbanks

08-13-2007, 06:07 AM

You are misunderstanding. I am criticizing what appears to be a stylistic or cultural norm with some of Yoshinkan, not impugning the motives of this particular sensei, which I obviously know nothing about. As Mr. Amdur pointed out, and provided a video to demonstrate, apparently not all of Yoshinkan pile drives their ukes into the mat and bounces heads, but there is a well known history of it in the school going back to Shioda himself.

I have similar complaints about brutality being the norm in many Aikikai schools I have gone to in the US, except the problem there is more in the yanking and cranking department, as opposed to slamming. Most of the people in these schools seem friendly and are not doing anything intentionally malicious, it is just that they have bought into a culture and style in which a certain amount of abuse and brutality are the norm. However, sadists who take it even further seem to find a particularly comfortable home in this environment, and become masters of smiling, passive-agressive uke abuse. Usually I encounter one or several at such places.

Since most Aikido training is kata with a designated uke being cooperative to some extent - often a large extent - I think there should be a higher ethical standard of consideration for uke in practice. I have a lot less problem with such roughness in freeform situations where there is less presumption of putting one's safety in someone else's hands. When both parties are free to really free to attack and defend without being able to hide behind a designated role, it seems more fair. Even so, there is still potential for abuse in terms of differing skill levels. For instance, I once almost got my trachea crushed by an instructor of a Judo school on my first (and last) day of training there. He was so much better than me at rolling I was practically helpless, which he of course knew and exploited to his delight. With martial arts, just like in every other aspect of life, there are hordes of people out there ready to take advantage of you for fun and profit.

Kevin Wilbanks

08-13-2007, 06:44 AM

Treating uke in what way? I didn't see uke complaining. In fact he kept getting up and attacking and has practiced for many years. I guess if you never practice like this and simply tank for your instructor, not that I"m saying you do that, then I guess I can see how you think this is not safe or desireable.

I guess I'll comment on this bit too, since it's such a load of garbage. The idea that one would see uke "complaining" in this brief video is absurd, and you know it. Not seeing it demonstrates nothing. Neither does the fact that he keeps getting up, or keeps training at the same dojo. Battered spouses often come back for hugs right after beatings, and stay in abusive relationships for years. These comments obviously do not address the points I was making, and are simply disingenuous rhetorical tricks.

The last bit is a textbook logical fallacy, called a 'false dichotomy'. There is no either/or between accelerating a falling uke into the mat so that his head bounces and 'tanking'. Whether or not one 'tanks' has to do with what happens between uke's attack and uke losing his or her balance/falling down. What I am discussing is accelerating uke into the mat after they are already falling down.

The fact that you keep resorting to fallacies and dirty tricks makes me think I hit a nerve. If I'm simply some yayhoo spouting nonsense, why the desperate argumentative measures?

philippe willaume

08-13-2007, 08:23 AM

Kevin
I am not from a Yoshinkan school but I assume that if students felt that they were snotted to buggery, surely they would leave the club/organisation no?

So put the aketon, the hauberk the gambeson, the shield and the great helm back to their barrel and whilst you are at it unsaddle your destrier, I am relatively confident that the RSPHABYU do not need your crusading on their behalf

There are many people that have the same outrage as you but it is regarding fluffy & wishy-washy aikido (i.e. in MMA parlance definitely not of the heterosexual kind).
If some people are happy to train hard good for them, is some other prefers much softer form, good for them as well.
As long as no animal or children have been abused during the making of the movie and it remains between concenting adults, it has to be fine.

Regardless of all that personally I do not find anything especially mean in the video, but again my middle names are Donatien Alphonse-François…..

Phil (aki Urukai)

Ps for those who wonder what RSPHABYU stands for it is Royal Society for the Protection of Horribly Abused and Battred Yoshinkan Uke.

Steven

08-13-2007, 08:31 AM

dps

08-13-2007, 08:48 AM

This demonstration is definitely better. The uke is not simply just running, actually applying more punches.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y
Uke is stopping after each attack.

David

Ellis Amdur

08-13-2007, 10:29 AM

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=178

Hard training in those days meant blood, sweat, and tears, and I am rather ashamed to admit, included doing your best to slam the other fellow into the mat. If uke’s head hit the mat in shihonage, that was a good, hard technique! I learned this from Day One, when I first applied to be accepted as an uchideshi.

Shioda Sensei asked me whether I could take ukemi, and I made the silly mistake of saying I could, based on a relatively low rank in judo at the time but no experience of aikido whatsoever. While Kancho watched, I was then told to grip the wrist of Takashi Kushida who, with Kyoichi Inoue, were the other two live-in students in the dojo at that time. Kushida slammed me down with shihonage and my head hit the mat with a thud. This process was repeated many times and each time I got up I was flung down again, until I ended up crawling around the mat, not quite sure who or where I was. I was concussed and had a headache for some days afterwards, but apparently I had passed the “entrance examination” and was allowed to enter the dojo.

Aiki1

08-13-2007, 11:03 AM

The fact that you and others, even if there are millions of them, think treating a cooperating uke this way is "normal" makes little difference to me, and does not make it safe or desireable. One of my teachers flatly calls it "unethical" and I agree.

I agree, I call it out-and-out abuse and brutality. I've seen it for many years, in many different Aikido demonstrations and dojo etc. After 25 years of teaching Aikido, I've experienced many different styles and teachers. Abuse perpetrated during the demonstration and teaching of Aikido is rampant, well-known among people who are willing to see it and admit it's existence, and completely unnecessary.

I know it's divisive to say this, because it appears to be a direct attack on either a teacher or a style etc. But there's no way to discuss it openly other than being honest about one's perceptions and experiences. In my experience, a lot of what is called Aikido is simply a demonstration of Aikido techniques, which I've seen a lot of instructors take advantage of to make themselves look powerful etc. In the end, it's the uke who pays, unfortunately, and the many people in Aikido who think they are learning something that they're not necessarily really learning.

I remember talking with Terry Dobson once many years ago, he was saying that he believed that a lot of why he got sick was because of all the hard falls he took all those years at Hombu dojo. He died a while ago.

Of course there are a lot of people who have a different experience. They're lucky.

I have nothing against "hard" Aikido, although it's not my style or preference. But there's a limit to what is acceptable. Nor does "hard" mean effective, in fact often it can defeat it's effectiveness, especially in "real life."

Don_Modesto

08-13-2007, 11:47 AM

Kevin
I am not from a Yoshinkan school but I assume that if students felt that they were snotted to buggery, surely they would leave the club/organisation no?With this LOGIC (often being the opposite of PSYCHOlogic), women would only be battered once by a man. Typically, they blame themselves ("I burned the toast," "I have to learn better UKEMI") rather than impute nastiness to their abuser. CAVEAT EMPTOR.

I agree, I call it out-and-out abuse and brutality. I've seen it for many years, in many different Aikido demonstrations and dojo etc. After 25 years of teaching Aikido, I've experienced many different styles and teachers. Abuse perpetrated during the demonstration and teaching of Aikido is rampant, well-known among people who are willing to see it and admit it's existence, and completely unnecessary.Thank you. To repeat the salient point, "Among people who are WILLING TO SEE IT."

I know it's divisive to say this, because it appears to be a direct attack on either a teacher or a style etc. But there's no way to discuss it openly other than being honest about one's perceptions and experiences. In my experience, a lot of what is called Aikido is simply a demonstration of Aikido techniques, which I've seen a lot of instructors take advantage of to make themselves look powerful etc. In the end, it's the uke who pays, unfortunately, and the many people in Aikido who think they are learning something that they're not necessarily really learning.Well put. Thank you.

Jerome Braun

08-13-2007, 12:04 PM

I've been on the receiving end of some of this type of behavior myself (Yoshinkan, nidan). It's not just "good hard training". It's more like "good hard game-playing".

The part where he plows the guy's head into the mat, then pats him as though he's a child to urge him up is the part where I think you can see the situation most clearly (about 0:40). Mori pretty clearly accelerates uke's head to the mat. It's purposeful. It's unnecessary.

If uke has practiced a million times to receive this "technique", what are the chances that we happen to see the one time he messes up? It's a lot more likely that uke can't really take this "technique".

Mori was a likable guy back in the early 90's, having interacted briefly with him a couple of times. The videos rather glorify him :cool:

darin

08-13-2007, 12:07 PM

This demonstration is definitely better. The uke is not simply just running, actually applying more punches.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y

I think those guys are doing some form of Yoseikan aikido. Takeno Sensei's demo was better though. These aikibudo guys are good but he's in a different league...

darin

08-13-2007, 12:17 PM

When doing nodowa oashi (palm push to the chin) and mukae doashi (irmi nage) I usually put my hand behind uke's head so as to support it as he gets thrown. You still get the same effect (feet come out from underneath etc) as those hard throws but with a lot less chance of injuries.

Kevin Wilbanks

08-13-2007, 02:07 PM

Falacies and dirty tricks? Sounds like the only one who's had a nerve hit is you Kevin. I simply suggested that your accusation that Mori Sensei is purposely brutalizing his uke's is false. I am entitled to my opinion as you are yours. I simply disagree with your first post to which you make this accusation. Much like you diagree with my post.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

More complete BS. In fact, the kind of dissembling and obfuscation you keep resorting to always hits a nerve with me. I can't stand being lied to. I have detailed my objections to a lot of things you said, and it certainly can not all be summed up as "I simply suggested..." Vague declarations about relativism and freedom of speech are more irrelevant nonsense.

Ron Tisdale

08-13-2007, 02:44 PM

Now people can see why I was ducking and running when this phase of the topic came up.

Difficult issues...I've got some herniated disks in my neck from bad falls from hard throws. Most of that is due to my own over eagerness at times. I get caught up in attacking, and don't protect myself enough, because I actually LIKE feeling powerfull throws (silly boy :freaky: :crazy: :hypno: ).

Oh well...it's not for everyone, some people do abuse it, others not. Some people are over eager, and then learn better after they get injured and walk around in pain 6 mos at a time, and need to get needles stuck in their neck to compensate.

In my home dojo I don't think I was ever thrown harder than I attacked. Well, maybe once or twice...but that was probably my own fault too.

Best,
Ron (this probably just makes me sound masochistic)

Ron Tisdale

08-13-2007, 02:45 PM

You know what though? Steven was polite to you during this entire conversation. Can't say the same for your posts.

Best,
Ron
More complete BS. In fact, the kind of dissembling and obfuscation you keep resorting to always hits a nerve with me. I can't stand being lied to. I have detailed my objections to a lot of things you said, and it certainly can not all be summed up as "I simply suggested..." Vague declarations about relativism and freedom of speech are more irrelevant nonsense.

Adam Alexander

08-13-2007, 03:00 PM

Aikibu

08-13-2007, 03:03 PM

I agree, I call it out-and-out abuse and brutality. I've seen it for many years, in many different Aikido demonstrations and dojo etc. After 25 years of teaching Aikido, I've experienced many different styles and teachers. Abuse perpetrated during the demonstration and teaching of Aikido is rampant, well-known among people who are willing to see it and admit it's existence, and completely unnecessary.

I know it's divisive to say this, because it appears to be a direct attack on either a teacher or a style etc. But there's no way to discuss it openly other than being honest about one's perceptions and experiences. In my experience, a lot of what is called Aikido is simply a demonstration of Aikido techniques, which I've seen a lot of instructors take advantage of to make themselves look powerful etc. In the end, it's the uke who pays, unfortunately, and the many people in Aikido who think they are learning something that they're not necessarily really learning.

I remember talking with Terry Dobson once many years ago, he was saying that he believed that a lot of why he got sick was because of all the hard falls he took all those years at Hombu dojo. He died a while ago.

Of course there are a lot of people who have a different experience. They're lucky.

I have nothing against "hard" Aikido, although it's not my style or preference. But there's a limit to what is acceptable. Nor does "hard" mean effective, in fact often it can defeat it's effectiveness, especially in "real life."

Agreed...I have had way too many injuries over the years taking Ukemi from Demonstrators who wish to polish their "teachnique" showing the aiki-audiance it's 'effectiveness" and they're not honest about it. They will start out accepting Uke very softly and then "finish" hard. Uke nevers see this coming trusting Nage and ends up on the mat in pain.

Once I had to protect myself during an demo with an Yonshikan/Shodokan style Yudansha as he tried Shionage and partially separated my shoulder with his hard technique. On the second try I had to hit him very hard in the ribs (knocking the wind out of him) to "persuede" him not to hurt me again (also suggesting he was way too open. :)). I deeply regret it to this day not because I protected myself but because I got angry and, reacted way too strongly.

I don't mind hard technique... but Nage be he/she be a Yudansha Big Shot or not should be HONEST about it wih UKE.

My Sensei Michael Fowler also fired me a few times in my early days to emphasize that Aikido is not about fighting, or winning, or hurting someone out of proportion to thier attack, especially during practice.

William Hazen

Aiki1

08-13-2007, 03:13 PM

Some of us like that type of technique. I'd of never started Aikido if my first exposure was Ki or most Aikikai I've seen. You say that it's not necessary, I say I'd of never got on the bus had I not seen hard techniques as my first introduction.

I'm not anywhere near what I'd call an ideal person, but I've been made better than I was because of Aikido. Had I jumped on board with one of the other local arts that were hard, I'd of been totally lead astray. Maybe those of us who really need Aikido in our lives are best served by the techniques that appear the hardest.

That's my experience. If those uke had an issue, they're big boys, they'd move on.

I actually agree with you - because to me, there is a big difference between hard throws/techniques, and abuse/brutality. I have nothing to say about people liking hard techniques, that's their perogative. Nothing wrong there in my book. But if what you are saying - and I don't think you are - is that you needed the throw to end in what is to me an unnecessary movement that can cause a concussion, then I would say that's something to look at.

Yoshinkan, like almost any style of Aikido, can be done really hard - nothing wrong with that - or it can be done brutally - something is wrong with that for me.

Lastly, I've seen people taken in by Aikido instructors many times - en mass in fact. Some of them otherwise quite intelligent people. That to me doesn't mean that they will know what is really in their best interest and follow it....

Mary Eastland

08-13-2007, 03:29 PM

What is the need to throw hard?.....soft io so much more effective.
Mary

Adam Alexander

08-13-2007, 03:52 PM

...you needed the throw to end in what is to me an unnecessary movement that can cause a concussion, then I would say that's something to look at.

Sh'te applies the level of intensity that his uke can handle. By pushing uke to his limits, he continues to progress. If there was nothing to push uke, he'd have no reason. Strong uke, strong sh'te. Strong sh'te, strong uke.

There was nothing wrong with that demo.

If you want to imply accusations of brutality or abuse that are independant of this (or those) videos, then start a new thread. You should probably entitle it "pushing one's self is self-abuse". Or, more to what might be the feeling behind the posts,"Pre-war styles aren't real Aikido".

I'm not judging you or what you do. But, I've never understood why people who wish to just dance on the mat didn't just take up dancing instead of Aikido.

Different strokes for different folks. I liked it though.

Mary, it's fun and exciting.

mathewjgano

08-13-2007, 04:07 PM

It was hard for me to see very clearly, but it seemed to me he was dropping them on their shoulders/upper back, though the room for error did seem very slight and of course heads did hit a couple times. I think the first technique looked good on both "sides" though; uke didn't hit his head, yet the sensei still maintained that penetrating connection through the upper torso. If he was trying to hit the head on the ground I imagine uke would have hit head first and I don't think that happened (though, again, I had a hard time seeing them very clearly).
At Tsubaki dojo we practice a very different form of shiho nage than anyone I've seen; with the sole intention of protecting the head. While I personally prefer this method, I can't fault others for training in a more dangerous manner.
Regarding the whole spousal abuse comparison: while I agree any maliciousness would be (or should be) a crime, I think presuming a direct reflection between these techniques and an abusive husband is a bit over the top. It looked no more dangerous than many of the suplexes of wrestling...though admittedly I'm relatively "new."
Take care everyone,
Matt

Aiki1

08-13-2007, 04:09 PM

Sh'te applies the level of intensity that his uke can handle. By pushing uke to his limits, he continues to progress. If there was nothing to push uke, he'd have no reason. Strong uke, strong sh'te. Strong sh'te, strong uke.

There was nothing wrong with that demo.

If you want to imply accusations of brutality or abuse that are independant of this (or those) videos, then start a new thread. You should probably entitle it "pushing one's self is self-abuse". Or, more to what might be the feeling behind the posts,"Pre-war styles aren't real Aikido".

I'm not judging you or what you do. But, I've never understood why people who wish to just dance on the mat didn't just take up dancing instead of Aikido.

Different strokes for different folks. I liked it though.

If you want to have a discussion, that's fine. I've been very civil, realizing that this kind of subject is very charged. Your post is insulting and donwright ugly. I'm not interested in that.

Adam Alexander

08-13-2007, 04:47 PM

If you want to have a discussion, that's fine. I've been very civil, realizing that this kind of subject is very charged. Your post is insulting and donwright ugly. I'm not interested in that.

No offense intended.

I don't believe I was doing anything different than any poster who made any comment about another's Aikido. One person implies brutality. I flipped the coin and accused excessive softness. One person says it's not Aikido. I flipped the coin and called the other extreme dancing.

The biggest difference is that I offer an excellent reason for hard techniques. To help uke improve ukemi.

Either way, whatever gets you through the day.

Aiki1

08-13-2007, 05:00 PM

No offense intended.

I don't believe I was doing anything different than any poster who made any comment about another's Aikido. One person implies brutality. I flipped the coin and accused excessive softness. One person says it's not Aikido. I flipped the coin and called the other extreme dancing.

The biggest difference is that I offer an excellent reason for hard techniques. To help uke improve ukemi.

Either way, whatever gets you through the day.

Sorry, nope. You quoted me and responded directly. Your statements and implications were clear. Whatever gets you through the day.

aikidoc

08-13-2007, 05:18 PM

Aiki1

08-13-2007, 05:41 PM

The throw definitely looks like what I have seen Shioda do on tape.

Me too.

Does it take a broken neck or a severe concussion with permanent repercussions to drive the dangerous aspect of this home?

Good question.

ad_adrian

08-13-2007, 05:53 PM

i almost promised my self not to bother replying to these posts
but let me say this
i've trained under more then mori sensei
and mori sensei is the best i've ever felt by a long shot
and he has never hurt any of his uke, they never feel any pain.
i've never been injured by it neither has any of his other uke. and you guys think you know aikido?
then you surely must know that you can not judge aikido by how it looks. but by how its felt. you can not possibly judge it unless you've been uke your self and felt his technique. how can you guys judge it just by what you see?

i will never ever judge anyone else's aikido by how it looks unless i've trained with them before.

i always thought joe sensei was hard and would kill me but when i trained with him, he was so soft...it was beautifull.

no one can judge anything unless they have trained and experianced it first hand. everybody's aikido is completely different.
my sensei is not bashing anyone up.

Adam Alexander

08-13-2007, 05:57 PM

The throw definitely looks like what I have seen Shioda do on tape. It definitely puts the neck and upper back at risk-more the neck. Also the possibility of a head injury is of great concern since the person is being driven straight down-head stops, brain continues to move - voila concussion. If the back of the brain hits the skull then we have issues of coordination as the cerebellum is being injured.

So, from what I saw the risk of a bad whiplash or strain injury or a broken neck or a concussion are all possible if the uke is not able to take the fall. Dangerous at best. IMHO.

As to Adam's comments, let me just say there are very effective iriminages taking the uke's balance out without driving the head and neck straight into the ground. If you want to realistically finish them off so they don't get up from it, then that is a good move. Does it take a broken neck or a severe concussion with permanent repercussions to drive the dangerous aspect of this home?

Very well said in my opinion.

For me, when the day comes that I return to my style, if that day ever comes, should I get hurt permanently, if it were because I wasn't paying attention, I would accept responsibility. When you train to develop powerful technique, there's a risk.

When you reach a certain level, you should have your ukemi skills in order. If you don't, then you better let the person across from you know.

That's just my opinion. People have to do what's right for them. I wouldn't intentionally steer them to or not to do any style.

EDIT: Just a note. I believe that what I saw when I trained was hard techniques. However, whether that was the case by the end, I don't know. In fact, I haven't trained in a dojo regularly for two years. So, don't take my position as an account of what the style does or had done because I really don't know. I just remember what techniques I loved to see by the guys at the top. (But, three years ago, I was taking some falls with that level of intensity.)

Jerome Braun

08-13-2007, 06:34 PM

you can not possibly judge it unless you've been uke your self and felt his technique.

Well, I guess I've felt it, so... ;)

how can you guys judge it just by what you see?

Because after you've been around human beings for a while you start to recognize patterns of behavior? Because some of us have been there and done that? Because so much of human communication is mediated visually?

my sensei is not bashing anyone up.

Ok.

ad_adrian

08-13-2007, 06:41 PM

aikido feels completely different to how it looks
how many times do you see someone go oh that looks fake!
when yo uvery well know that its real if only they gave it a try

anyway here is another short clip
showing highlights of 10 years of his aikido here in brissy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lfOJv4LkBs&mode=related&search=

im ready for more "he bashese his uke up" posts

aikidoc

08-13-2007, 07:11 PM

Yes, feeling is important but when someone's head bounces off the mat and they don't get up right away and nage has to check them how can you say they were not injured or at least dazed. Minor insults to the brain are cumulative and generally with long term consequences. Ask some professional quarterbacks who bounce off the ground with helmets on. If one chooses to take such a strong technique that is their perogative. It would be interesting to see how clearly they think 10 or 20 years later. Minor concussions can cause long term headaches. Brain cells do not regenerate. Hey, if it's your thing, its your brain. Free will and all that. I'm not being critical of his technique just the amount of power being used. The follow through point is very close to the ground for nage giving uke little time to do anything other than hit the mat hard.

Aran Bright

08-13-2007, 09:17 PM

Hi Adrian,

Your Sensei does beat people up! He also has x-ray vision and can leap tall buildings in a single bound.

I'm joking. ;)

I have had the chance to meet Mori sensei and was quite honestly surprised by how gentle his manner is. I really was surprised to then see him perform his kata and how much power he puts into his techniques.

I wouldn't worry too much about others peoples corcerns about his methods. You've just stumbled across the old school -v- new school arguement, martial -v- safety. Personally I don't mind being thrown like that occasioally but I am not interesting in joining the riot police either so I would be concerned about the mileage I would get out of that sort of training. But what ever floats your boat. I am very confident that Mori sensei is not abusive to his students.

:)

Jess McDonald

08-13-2007, 11:47 PM

Don't take everything so personally you guys. Chill out; it's just some dude's Sensei...yeesh!

Kevin Wilbanks

08-14-2007, 12:07 AM

You know what though? Steven was polite to you during this entire conversation. Can't say the same for your posts.

Best,
Ron

Whatever. Fastidious passive-agression scores no points with me. It's okay if someone tells insults your intelligence, dissembles, and plies one half-baked fallacy after another, so long as they are "polite"? Personally, I prefer honesty, no matter how blunt.

philippe willaume

08-14-2007, 04:05 AM

With this LOGIC (often being the opposite of PSYCHOlogic), women would only be battered once by a man. Typically, they blame themselves ("I burned the toast," "I have to learn better UKEMI") rather than impute nastiness to their abuser. CAVEAT EMPTOR.
Well put. Thank you.
Don
Since you are so well versed in syllogism (if i a=>b and b=>c then a=>c)
I believe that you understand their limitation as afar as cartesian/bolean logic is concerned.
The link between being "battered uki" and battered women is exactly the same as a cheap horse being expensive on the ground that rare things are expensive and since a cheap hores is rare....

Saying that battered uki and battered woman have anything in common is to psychology what Fox news is to independent journalism.
There are societal, economic and peer pressure on battered women that being a uke has no chance to even marginally get close.
If I agree that battering uke is a form a bullying that does not have anything remotely comparable to battered woman.
“I burnt the toast” is a way to cope with an environment that the woman has no chance to escape from on her own and 24/7 attacks on her self worth and self esteem.
That is just not the case for the majority of ukes as they actually can escape.
I mean when we are in seminar when we do not like a training partner, most of us just do not train with that guy again (or enter a snotting competition but in that case it is willful act)

As I said before
Some like hard aikido some like soft aikido. It is all fine.

All
However what is not fine is That sensei has been pilloried for two blumming page on the ground of one video.
May be he said to his uke after the demonstration “sorry mate I did not mean to drop you on your head.”
One can understand the pats on the head and helping him to get up are a way to publicly acknowledge that the technique was too rough and apologies for it.

We do not have any context as to pass judgment.
As far as having risk of injury, well yes there is but there is in plenty of other activity. I can understand that if you are on the spiritual development side of the track, that type of risk is unacceptable but you do need to realize that there some of use that practice for the martial aspect and that the risk of injury is perfectly acceptable, especially since we do it in a controlled environment.
I like functional aikido but I am the first on to say that you can not really engage in proper free sparing).
Obviously, a safe environment implies that you do adapt the intensity of your technique to your training partner (according to rank, age and disposition) and well it does imply that there is an intrinsic ability level that goes with each grade.

I joust sometime with solid lances. (And probably most of us are involved in risky leisure activity).
Yes I can end up like Henry II of France, with a bit of lance it the brain, or I can break something being unhorsed, fortunately armour and lances are designed so that it is very very unlikely.
At the end of the day we do take precaution to minimize accident and injury but the risk is always there.
Unlike battered woman there is no one or nothing forcing me to get on a horse or forcing us to get on the mat if we do not want to
phil

Ron Tisdale

08-14-2007, 06:57 AM

Whoa! wait a minute...

I can understand that if you are on the spiritual development side of the track, that type of risk is unacceptable but you do need to realize that there some of use that practice for the martial aspect and that the risk of injury is perfectly acceptable, especially since we do it in a controlled environment.

Ok, I've trained with Don...he is not from any "camp". He has some excellent waza, and excellent ukemi. For those who doubt it, buy the Friendship demo where he takes some INTENSE ukemi from Saotome Sensei in Japan. Don has every right to his opinion, as does Ellis (Original Graduate of the School of Hard Knocks).

Look, different people will have different opinions of those clips, of the clips of Shioda, etc. I know for a fact that there were yudansha that were praying Shioda Sensei wouldn't call them up for ukemi. Yoshinkan can be a very rough style, and just because someone has excellent physical skills doesn't mean they will embody the "peace and love" ethics of post war aikido. As long as the person signing up for the demo is aware of what's up...that's between them and their instructor.

Ueshiba Sensei put Shioda Sensei in the hospital for 3 days...after trashing the arm of the first uke in the demonstration before the emperor. That is some rough stuff...as Shioda Sensei was the founding member of the OGSHK himself ;). It is what it is. No need for any of us to be casting aspersions on the people who are making valid comments.

That doesn't mean I have to agree with them, or to take it as seriously as they do. But both Don and Ellis are buds, and I can't sit by and watch people mis-characterize them. Especially since I've felt and seen their waza, and know they don't match what some people have said.

Best,
Ron

dbotari

08-14-2007, 07:13 AM

You know what though? Steven was polite to you during this entire conversation. Can't say the same for your posts.

Yes, I've noticed over the past few months an increasing decline in civility on the board in general. Maybe its the summer heat?

Dan

Ron Tisdale

08-14-2007, 09:29 AM

By the way, just viewed the clip of Mustard Sensei. Didn't look earlier because I thought it was one I'd already seen.

a) Congrats Sensei on the 7th Dan!

b) I thought the comments on the youtube vid were pretty stupid.

c) I've taken ukemi for Mustard Sensei (not in demo mode though), and he's one of the most gentle high ranking guys in the Yoshinkan that I've taken ukemi for. And a real prince of a guy. Absolutely a gentleman. I'm with Ellis 100% on his recommendation.

d) I noticed that Mustard Sensei demonstrated some power draining waza on that vid. I don't think I've seen him demo those before. He keeps improving every time I see him.

Best,
Ron

Don_Modesto

08-14-2007, 10:38 AM

Lyle Bogin

08-14-2007, 10:40 AM

Bob Tullman has thrown me at least that hard...but only when I've requested it :).

I dunno. I tend to freak out over uke safety and this seemed well within the bounds of reason IF you want to take hard falls. There is a certain pleasure in having your bell rung by someone you really respect. Uke had room to tuck in his chin I think.

Don_Modesto

08-14-2007, 10:41 AM

and you guys think you know aikido?
then you surely must know that you can not judge aikido by how it looks. but by how its felt. you can not possibly judge it unless you've been uke your self and felt his technique. how can you guys judge it just by what you see?Ha! Hoisted on my own petard. My oft-expressed mantra is, I want to take the UKEMI.

The reason why I feel free to comment here is because I saw the guy's head bouncing off the mat several times.

Don't have to take that to know what's happening.

Geez, it amazes me how people can argue against objective evidence. It's right there, the head bouncing! Mori having to help UKE back up. Talk about thinking in a box. Geez.

Don_Modesto

08-14-2007, 10:48 AM

Ok, I've trained with Don...he has every right to his opinion, as does Ellis (Original Graduate of the School of Hard Knocks). Thanks, Ron. You're a pal!

Don_Modesto

08-14-2007, 11:00 AM

The link between being "battered uki" and battered women is exactly the same as a cheap horse being expensive on the ground that rare things are expensive and since a cheap hores is rare.... Ha! That's cute. Had heard Ionesco's about cats being dogs, but hadn't heard this one.

But I don't think it applies, though. The psychology is the same, I think: The victim blames him/herself.

Saying that battered uki and battered woman have anything in common is to psychology what Fox news is to independent journalism.Oh, man! I hate to find myself on the other side of an argument with someone bashing Fox...If nothing else, thanks for that.

There are societal, economic and peer pressure on battered women that being a uke has no chance to even marginally get close.
If I agree that battering uke is a form a bullying that does not have anything remotely comparable to battered woman.

Societal and peer pressure certainly do obtain. I'll grant that economic variables don't. Still, the psychology is the same, blame yourself for someone else's brutality.

As I said before
Some like hard aikido some like soft aikido. It is all fine.Uh, no. Some of it is criminal.

However what is not fine is That sensei has been pilloried for two blumming page on the ground of one video.Sorry. Accountability seems right to me.

May be he said to his uke after the demonstration "sorry mate I did not mean to drop you on your head.""I'm sorry, honey. I don't know what came over me. I promise not to do it again, and I'm cooking you dinner as soon as the doctor signs the release papers."

One can understand the pats on the head and helping him to get up are a way to publicly acknowledge that the technique was too rough and apologies for it.'Took him four or five bloomin' tosses to knock the poor guys senseless. For which would he be apologizing?

We do not have any context as to pass judgment.Poppycock. The evidence is right before us.

I can understand that if you are on the spiritual development side of the track, that type of risk is unacceptableActually, this distinction is untenable. It is precisely the "spiritually oriented" people who train the hardest, cf. Osensei. Don't think I count myself in this camp, but wouldn't be embarrassed to...

but you do need to realize that there some of use that practice for the martial aspect and that the risk of injury is perfectly acceptable, especially since we do it in a controlled environment.It is precisely the question of control we are discussing, isn't it. And some of us expect Mori of it, if you will.

Don_Modesto

08-14-2007, 11:02 AM

By the way, just viewed the clip of Mustard Sensei. No complaints from me on Mustard. He's impeccable, isn't he.

Ron Tisdale

08-14-2007, 11:31 AM

Ok, found a good version of the Imperial Demonstration:

From Aikido Journal:

The students accompanying Sensei for this event were his leading disciple, Mr. Tsutomu Yukawa (now deceased) and I. During this period Sensei was suffering from a heavy case of jaundice and had only drunk water for about ten days. He has grown so weak that he even had to support himself on our shoulders to put his kimono on or to walk. Mr. Yukawa and I looked at each other and worried about whether Sensei could really give a demonstration in that condition. Despite this, he somehow got into the car which came to fetch him and arrived at the Saineikan. We got out of the car and supported him when he walked. However, when we approached the entrance of the dojo where the Imperial family was visible, Sensei’s eyes began to shine and he entered the dojo with a commanding air, totally transformed. After the extremely respectful formalities the demonstration began at last. Forty minutes were alloted for the demonstration. Yukawa was supposed to take falls for the first twenty minutes and I for the last twenty.

It looked like Yukawa was attacking Sensei half-heartedly in deference to his condition. But Ueshiba Sensei’s ki power had reached the maximum. Yukawa was sent flying in a flash and he ended up crouching on the floor unable to move. When I rushed to him and looked him over carefully I discovered his arm was broken. Thus as it happened I had to take falls for the entire forty minutes in place of the injured Yukawa. I couldn’t hold back. On the contrary, I attacked Sensei with all my might. The moment I was thrown and landed on the mat I got up immediately and went at Ueshiba Sensei. I was pinned flat but as soon as I was released I went to attack again and again was thrown by Sensei. In any event, his spirit was incredibly strong. Exerting myself to the utmost, I somehow managed to serve as Sensei’s uke for forty minutes. But later I came down with a high fever and had to stay in bed for about a week.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=615

Now, what I'm currious about is if the people who object to Shioda Sensei's demonstrations, and Mori Sensei's demonstrations also object to Ueshiba Sensei's demonstrations. And if not, why not?? And if so, then why do we not hear those objections more often?

Best,
Ron

xuzen

08-14-2007, 11:45 AM

I remember putting up some youtube video here sometime ago of two people in dogi and hakama doing some interpretive dance and labeled as aikido.

To me that was horrific... because it is alien to the aikido I know.

Now Adrian put up his sensei's demo clip and people who are not from the Yoshinkan school criticize that it appear to be deliberately harsh on his uke.

I can tell you, as I am from Yoshinkan school as well, we train our ukemi to be able to take that kind of techniques. When we have trained uke who are able to take hard ukemi, then as shite/tori, we are able to maximally apply our technique at full force.

When we are able to do that, shite learns the feeling of applying the technique realistically; whereas uke learn how it feels to receive a technique applied at realistic force.

Yoshinkan school still maintain its martial credo... in line with its Kancho's teaching/spirit.

If one was to read Kancho's auto-biograhy, his fights are never round after rounds of trading blows with his opponents. His fights usually last one encounter and his opponents are normally unable to continue the fight due to dislocated or disjointed joints (usually elbow).

With that in mind, each waza we do, is inline with the mindset of instantaneous victory; and as such it is important the shite apply realistic waza to uke who are trained to take the ukemi.

Boon.

Ron Tisdale

08-14-2007, 11:53 AM

No complaints from me on Mustard. He's impeccable, isn't he.

Absolutely. What really amazed me though, was how nice he was. Not at all how he was described in Angry White Pajamas.

Say, I remember the first time I saw him in person. He was at one of Utada Sensei's anniversaries, and everytime he (M.S.) came near me I would snap to attention and Osu (like some kind of freakin' idiot :( ). His response was to ask me why I kept looking like I wanted to attack him! :D

Best,
Ron (good sense of humor, that)

Don_Modesto

08-14-2007, 12:30 PM

Now, what I'm currious about is if the people who object to Shioda Sensei's demonstrations, and Mori Sensei's demonstrations also object to Ueshiba Sensei's demonstrations. And if not, why not?? And if so, then why do we not hear those objections more often?Fair questions. I think we do hear objections, but not as often as the idol-worshipping mush. That is, for the same reasons that Stevens sells more books than Pranin or Amdur.

I'm all for a level playing field and subjecting SHIHAN or Osensei to the same standards to which we hold ourselves. Shall we begin another thread?

salim

08-14-2007, 12:50 PM

The realities of accepting different methodologies and technical applications of Aikido is in more of a need than ever. Why does one person desire that Aikido be taught, practice and applied one way? When the founding father of Aikido introduce the art to his various students, they all took away different methodologies and applications, it depends on when they where taught Aikido during his life. Some of this is a result of where he was in his own personal growth and development. In the beginning Aikido, (Aikibudo) as he refer to his art, at that time, was hard and very aggressive, full combat ready. Upon his deeply religious conviction to the Shinto religion, which took hold and impacted his martial arts development, he moved toward the soft, don't hurt, peaceful, not self defense. Aikido was the word used permanently.

Aikido to some is not Aikido to others. Personal attacks to one's methodology and application of the art only serves to make Aikido less appealing. I'm glad there is a hard style and a soft style. For those who want to learn more self defense oriented, combat Aikdio, then Yoseikan and others are available. For those who want to learn the softer more meditation/spiritual Aikido then Ki is available.

Ron Tisdale

08-14-2007, 12:54 PM

I'm all for a level playing field and subjecting SHIHAN or Osensei to the same standards to which we hold ourselves. Shall we begin another thread?

Hmmm, well, somehow I think it belongs in the *same* thread. Just for the even playing field effect. ;)

B,
R

Basia Halliop

08-14-2007, 01:19 PM

'm glad there is a hard style and a soft style

What's hard and soft though? Some people use the words to refer more to the attacks that uke gives, other people use them to refer to the level of cooperativeness and/or resistance of uke, others to how nage takes control of uke, and yet others use them to refer to what nage does _after_ uke is fully under their control and 'defeated'.

What if there's, hypothetically, a kind of cooperative uke who is off balance and is then kind of smashed with much more force than nage needs to throw them or pin them? Is that 'hard' (because of the extra 'smashing' ) or is it 'soft'? What about the other way around -- everything is very active and attacks are vigorous and people are trying to reverse or whatever and balance has to be truely taken, but once uke is truely falling there is just a plain businesslike kind of throw, no extra bouncing or smashing or bone-crunching or whatever. Does that make it 'soft'?

I'm not positive where exactly the various videos fit in, just that dividing everything up into two categories: 'Hard style' and 'Soft style'' and saying they're opposites seems oversimplified, and it also seems too simple to look at some way of practicing you object to and just do every thing you can think of as 'totally opposite' as possible and assume that that is the solution and that the 'total opposite' of something bad is automatically something good.

aikidoc

08-14-2007, 01:29 PM

I like the concept of the least amount of force necessary to control and immobilize the attacker.

Keep in mind these are not real attacks in the street sense. Even there, it can sometimes come down to whether excessive force was used. If someone slaps your face and you break their arms and legs you'll probably go to jail. Obviously, when adrenaline is involved things sometimes get away from you. But that's why we train is it not? To learn control.

salim

08-14-2007, 01:30 PM

What's hard and soft though? Some people use the words to refer more to the attacks that uke gives, other people use them to refer to the level of cooperativeness and/or resistance of uke, others to how nage takes control of uke, and yet others use them to refer to what nage does _after_ uke is fully under their control and 'defeated'.

What if there's, hypothetically, a kind of cooperative uke who is off balance and is then kind of smashed with much more force than nage needs to throw them or pin them? Is that 'hard' (because of the extra 'smashing' ) or is it 'soft'? What about the other way around -- everything is very active and attacks are vigorous and people are trying to reverse or whatever and balance has to be truely taken, but once uke is truely falling there is just a plain businesslike kind of throw, no extra bouncing or smashing or bone-crunching or whatever. Does that make it 'soft'?

I'm not positive where exactly the various videos fit in, just that dividing everything up into two categories: 'Hard style' and 'Soft style'' and saying they're opposites seems oversimplified, and it also seems too simple to look at some way of practicing you object to and just do every thing you can think of as 'totally opposite' as possible and assume that that is the solution and that the 'total opposite' of something bad is automatically something good.

It's about what a person desires from his training. It's about the methodology a person desires to follow. I only use the hard and soft style to bring about the difference in what people want from Aikido. Some desire more spiritual or not self defense, while others look for self defense or combat in there Aikido. I can accept the differences of Aikido methodology.

Aiki1

08-14-2007, 01:33 PM

It's about what a person desires from his training. It's about the methodology a person desires to follow. I only use the hard and soft style to bring about the difference in what people want from Aikido. Some desire more spiritual or not self defense, while others look for self defense or combat in there Aikido. I can accept the differences of Aikido methodology.

I absolutely disagree if you are saying that "soft" or "spiritual" Aikido is not street effective, and that "only hard" Aikido is. I can tell you from real-world experience that that is most definitely not the case - on both counts.

Ron Tisdale

08-14-2007, 01:36 PM

In agreement with Larry, I also have to say that I've been thrown in "soft" ways that felt devastating...maybe even more so than some "hard" ways of throwing.

Don't have much "street experience" myself, so I can't speak to that.

Best,
Ron

salim

08-14-2007, 01:41 PM

I absolutely disagree if you are saying that "soft" or "spiritual" Aikido is not street effective, and that "only hard" Aikido is. I can tell you from real-world experience that that is most definitely not the case - on both counts.

I can't judge your Aikido or your personal experiences. I can only say that we are different in our Aikido methodology. I'm glad that the early students of Aikido learned the art from different perspectives. I'm glad that the early students from the founding father taught Aikido differently to different people. Some people love Yoseikan Aikido and it's methodology should be respected.

Aiki1

08-14-2007, 01:51 PM

I can't judge your Aikido or your personal experiences. I can only say that we are different in our Aikido methodology. I'm glad that the early students of Aikido learned the art from different perspectives. I'm glad that the early students from the founding father taught Aikido differently to different people. Some people love Yoseikan Aikido and it's methodology should be respected.

I too am glad that the early students of Aikido learned the art from different perspectives. And I do respect Yoseikan Aikido, never said or implied anything different. I've learned good stuff from all the styles that I've been exposed to (Many), includiing some Very hard stuff. That's not the issue here. The issue is brutality in Aikido, as opposed to simply "hard" technique - and the adjunct that seems to have appeared which is probably superfluous - that hard = effective and soft = ineffective, which is not true.

Basia Halliop

08-14-2007, 01:52 PM

and it's methodology should be respected.

I guess I don't really see why... I haven't seen enough of it to say that I respect it or don't (more likely there is plenty there I would respect and some things going on I wouldn't, as anywhere else), but in general the fact that someone, even if it's someone I respect, 'loves' something isn't all that relevent to earning my real respect or admiration.

Plenty of perfectly nice people love doing things I don't respect...

Aiki1

08-14-2007, 01:53 PM

I guess I don't really see why... I haven't seen enough of it to say that I respect it or don't, but in general the fact that someone, even if it's someone I respect, 'loves' something isn't all that relevent to earning my real respect or admiration.

Plenty of perfectly nice people love things I don't respect...

That's a very good point as well....

Ellis Amdur

08-14-2007, 02:01 PM

I remember discussing aikido with a teacher of mine (definitely non-aikido) - someone who had participated in ring fights, street fights, even full combat - and I described aikido cheap shots: the crank of the already pinned person (how do you ukemi out of that?) or the concussive slam of the head. (Matsuda Seijiro did that one to me. I have some ability in ukemi, but he, as a "joke", did irimi-nage, waited until I was a few inches above the ground, and with palm on forehead, dropped his body weight and concussed me. And he, when I staggered to my feet and off the mat, laughed and patted my shoulder. Shioda wasn't the only one.). Anyway, I described this, and my teacher got a genuinely puzzled look on his face. "Let me get this straight. It's not a shiai. The student takes ukemi and is supposed to attack and fall a certain way" - he then repeated the incidents I described. And then slowly, as if talking a foreign language, he said, "And then the students think the teacher is tough?"
Another thought, brought to mind by Takeno and Mustard. While a mere puppy, I asked Terry Dobson who was the scariest person at the Aikikai. I expected him to say Chiba, Arikawa or one of Saito Morihiro's students (some of the latter infamous for cheap shots), and he said, "Kuroiwa. He was an ex-boxer, had a body like a Greek god before he got sick, had incredible technique, unbelievable hand speed and power, and he never - once - hurt anyone.' You knew so clearly what he could do in the way he didn't do it!"
The Osensei question. He explicitly said that he was not concerned about "good and evil." He had war criminals among his students (he was a "Class G" war criminal himself - allegedly. I'm curious about the details of this, I think it was like a "thought crime.") Dobson onoly remembered on time that Ueshiba ever intervened on a moral basis - after an uchi-deshi snapped the arm of a twelve year old white belt. Terry, proud for Osensei, described how the latter took said uchi-deshi into the back and screamed at him and he emerged, white as a sheet. I asked, "Did he change his behavior." Terry, thoughtful and silent, "Not in the slightest."
In short, the decent guys (consider Tomiki Kenji for an example) stayed decent. The indecent have had a free playground.
And lest there be any breast beating in my direction, I haven't yet said anything about Mr. Mori whatsoever. I've pointed to some exemplars of wonderful, very powerful aikido - the best of not only Yoshinkan, but aikido at it's finest, and I've quoted David Lynch, uchideshi about headbanging.
As for Mr. Mori, make up your own minds.

Aiki1

08-14-2007, 02:06 PM

Right on, Ellis, and very nicely put.

Ever get down to LA? :-)

Ron Tisdale

08-14-2007, 02:09 PM

I love it...another brilliant post Ellis.

You are so very good at asking the questions, usually without giving out the answers (which we should really figure out for ourselves anyway).

I really wish I could have met Kuroiwa Sensei.

I've got to wonder just how we reconcile Ueshiba Sensei's holding himself apart from so much of the violence around him. What is the saying...when good men do nothing??? At the same time, I kind of admire that kind of aloofness.

Aikido really confuses me.

Best,
Ron

salim

08-14-2007, 02:20 PM

I too am glad that the early students of Aikido learned the art from different perspectives. And I do respect Yoseikan Aikido, never said or implied anything different. I've learned good stuff from all the styles that I've been exposed to (Many), includiing some Very hard stuff. That's not the issue here. The issue is brutality in Aikido, as opposed to simply "hard" technique - and the adjunct that seems to have appeared which is probably superfluous - that hard = effective and soft = ineffective, which is not true.

I never indicated the effectiveness of a person's Aikido. I simply stated the facts of the founding father's personal development and personal religious conviction of Shinto. I stated the facts of how it has impacted the later styles of Aikido. You misconstrued my intentions. If a persons desires more spiritual Aikido, then that is there right. If a person desires the early methods of Aikido, which had a lot less to do with Shinto religion, then that is there right. My statements are not to judge, but to state the developmental evolution of Aikido and some styles.

The respected sensei and there years of learning Aikido, while well established in the Aikido world, are not about brute force, but about methodology. I think this is more about perception than fact, it seems. Misunderstandings in such forums is often the case.

Basia Halliop

08-14-2007, 02:29 PM

If a persons desires more spiritual Aikido, then that is there right. If a person desires the early methods of Aikido, which had a lot less to do with Shinto religion, then that is there right.

I don't so much disagree with this. It just seems to me that it's not really what the discussion/disagreement is about.

It's more like 'poor sportsmanship' or something, or like someone else put it 'cheap shots'. I think that's quite separate from hard training. It's more things like hitting someone who's already effectively surrendered (ie already falling or pinned). No matter how hard you like to train, it's easy to think of examples that seem like poor sportsmanship at best.

salim

08-14-2007, 02:44 PM

Ron Tisdale

08-14-2007, 02:46 PM

IThe Osensei question. He explicitly said that he was not concerned about "good and evil." He had war criminals among his students (he was a "Class G" war criminal himself - allegedly. I'm curious about the details of this, I think it was like a "thought crime.")

Again from Aikido Journal:

Apparently, after the war Ueshiba Sensei went through some very tough times.
The fact that Ueshiba Sensei was an adviser to the Butokukai in Kyoto which was a rival of the Kodokan Judo organization was not good. When MacArthur came he disbanded the organization. Ueshiba Sensei was implicated as a war criminal and accused of class G war crimes. His foundation [the Kobukai] was taken away and his activities were stopped. Also, the Ueshiba dojo closed down for a time and Ueshiba Sensei secluded himself in Iwama. Since he could no longer practice budo, he created the “Aikien” [Aiki Farm] and engaged in farming in Iwama. He was just eking out a living.

The paradox is, this is from an interview with Gozo Shioda...

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=425
Best,
Ron

salim

08-14-2007, 02:52 PM

I have never understood why those who follow the methodology of Minoru Mochizuki, some classify as using brute force. A direct student of Morihei Ueshiba, but his method of Aikido misunderstood by some.

Basia Halliop

08-14-2007, 02:58 PM

Is it better to say that I don't like the methodology of some Aikido? Is it better to say that one of the earlier founders, Minoru Mochizuki used a methodology that is not appealing to me?

I would probably just say that I don't respect the methodology of some Aikido, and believe it to be unethical. I might or might not respect the individual practitioners.

Finding it 'unappealing' sounds too much like I don't like the colour they chose for their hakama or something :lol

salim

08-14-2007, 03:06 PM

I would probably just say that I don't respect the methodology of some Aikido, and believe it to be unethical. I might or might not respect the individual practitioners.

Finding it 'unappealing' sounds too much like I don't like the colour they chose for their hakama or something :lol

I can respect your opinion. Thanks for being honest!

Minoru Mochizuki, great Aikidoka.

Ron Tisdale

08-14-2007, 03:26 PM

Hey Ellis,

As you can see, I've been digging...from Aikido Journal yet again...

http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3014&highlight=&sid=ad5c0ba6cc11d1ab0969e3a1cea0e648

The jist of which is that there are no class G war crimes, and Shioda Sensei was mistaken (at least in the classifications...no idea about the "being accused").

Best,
Ron

Don_Modesto

08-14-2007, 06:02 PM

does one person desire that Aikido be taught, practice and applied one way?Who said this? The issue is brutality, not uniformity.

Aikido to some is not Aikido to others. Personal attacks to one's methodology and application of the art only serves to make Aikido less appealing. Osensei did it. And we ARE supposed to keep improving aikido, right?

I'm glad there is a hard style and a soft style. For those who want to learn more self defense oriented, combat Aikdio, then Yoseikan and others are available. For those who want to learn the softer more meditation/spiritual Aikido then Ki is available.I'm guessing this is a spurious distinction, as others have commented, above.

Ellis Amdur

08-14-2007, 06:06 PM

Ron -
Class G war criminal - http://rmmla.wsu.edu/conferences/conf05cda/getabstractc2e4.html Clearly, a minor - "thought" crime.
Also, see Steve Morris's "No Hold's Barred" - Morris is an infamous guy in British karate circles - you can read about it on different areas on his own website. But what is interesting is the research he got into regarding martial arts and right-wing atrocities pre-and-during WWII - and a whole section in which he SEEMS TO fill in a LOT of blanks in Shioda Gozo's official biography.
http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/07Scorpionnoteslinks.htm
I do not know how accurate all of Morris' research is - but some is clear historical record. And it's a read that makes one think.
I got a considerable reaction in one of my pieces in Dueling with Osensei (Tenchi: Head in the Clouds, Feet in the Muck) which asked some questions about Ueshiba's collusion and relationship with right-wing organizations, providing a meeting place at the Kobukan for what, by any definition was a terrorist organization. Personally, I think we do far better - particularly in an art like aikido, when we take a clear-eyed look at what our teachers do and who they are. Learning and playing with violence is too important to leave anything to faith. We will make different decisions on whether to stay or leave -but this should be based on truth - not "reframing" (abuse is hard training) or wishful thinking ("he's spiritual thus he can do no harm" ) . . .Oh yeah, I'm repeating myself - I already wrote on this, didn't I?:rolleyes:

Best

jennifer paige smith

08-14-2007, 06:14 PM

I absolutely disagree if you are saying that "soft" or "spiritual" Aikido is not street effective, and that "only hard" Aikido is. I can tell you from real-world experience that that is most definitely not the case - on both counts.

This also outlines my first hand experiences of 'street effectiveness' and aikido. On more than one occassion with more than one attacker. Unfortunately ( or fortunately if one is a skeptic).
Thank you.

Ellis Amdur

08-14-2007, 06:16 PM

Taking ukemi for Ueshiba always seems to have been a "fraught" experience, by the way. He breaks Yukawa's arm for being "half-hearted," but is furious in Manchuria when Ohba, an expert judoka and aikidoka, in absolutely respect, gives a 100% attack - not all sprawled out, but real "fighting" attacks to the best of his ability. Ueshiba's technique, per Ohba, was incredibly powerful, but not smooth and perfect, and he was quite angry with Ohba until Sonobe, the great Jikishin Kage-ryu naginata instructor approached Ueshiba and told him how wonderful she found the demo - as did others. (In short, you tank and you get broke, you give it your all, and you tick him off - where, oh pilgrim is the middle way?)
That Ueshiba was remarkable is beyond doubt - that Shioda, a very ordinary guy, per several uchideshi I spoke with, could do remarkable things, is also beyond doubt. Remarkable doesn't necessarily equal caring/nice/unselfish/supportive/moral - what have you.

dps

08-14-2007, 09:04 PM

this is my sensei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRHKw_riHDQ

he was ulchi deshi for gozo shioda for 10 years.

Hello Adrian,

Who was the uke in the video and what does he have to say about the comments posted?

David

Aikibu

08-15-2007, 12:30 AM

Thanks for the comments Sensei Amdur...

Again without much ado I would like to point out The issue does not concern Soft or hard Technique which by the way is really only a matter of interpretation and intention. The issue is the ethical responsibility of Nage to be honest in thier execution of any technique/style with Uke. Now if the Uke has a mad look in thier eye and thier intention is to f**k you up then by all means bounce thier head off the mat or concrete. but if the Uke is trusting your ability to do Aikido and to demonstrate/teach this ability to others then how does harming your Uke accomplish this?

Thats not Aikido in my book "Hard or Soft" Nor does such an Ego based exercise develop any kind of Martial Spirit or Budo in my view.

William Hazen

I personally don't teach students Aikido's version of the sucker punch How about you folks?

Kevin Wilbanks

08-15-2007, 02:10 AM

I remember discussing aikido with a teacher of mine (definitely non-aikido) - someone who had participated in ring fights, street fights, even full combat - and I described aikido cheap shots: the crank of the already pinned person (how do you ukemi out of that?) or the concussive slam of the head. (Matsuda Seijiro did that one to me. I have some ability in ukemi, but he, as a "joke", did irimi-nage, waited until I was a few inches above the ground, and with palm on forehead, dropped his body weight and concussed me. And he, when I staggered to my feet and off the mat, laughed and patted my shoulder. Shioda wasn't the only one.). Anyway, I described this, and my teacher got a genuinely puzzled look on his face. "Let me get this straight. It's not a shiai. The student takes ukemi and is supposed to attack and fall a certain way" - he then repeated the incidents I described. And then slowly, as if talking a foreign language, he said, "And then the students think the teacher is tough?"

This and Mr. Hazen's prior comment get at what I was talking about all along. In Aikido, much of the practice is set up like a scientific experiment where many of the possible variables are assumed to be constants. Things like driving someone into the mat after they are already falling or cranking on someone who has already yielded are violations of the implicit agreement one makes as uke to participate in the experiment. It's dirty pool. It has nothing to do with being tough, combat-ready, hard, or whatever terms apologists seek to use to glorify it. Quite the contrary. It's cowardly and much more akin to behaving like a rapist or a assassin than any kind of legitimate badass.

If you are looking to prove how tough you are, at least do it in a situation where your opponent/victim is free to attack, reverse, resist, improvise and so forth to the best of their ability. Then, depending on the agreed upon rules, we are talking about sparring, shiai, or an actual fight. Even then, there are other ways to exploit the rules, and take advantage, but at least you are on the right track, and not engaging in some kind of obviously creepy, predatory behavior.

philippe willaume

08-15-2007, 04:18 AM

Whoa! wait a minute...

Ok, I've trained with Don...he is not from any "camp". He has some excellent waza, and excellent ukemi. For those who doubt it, buy the Friendship demo where he takes some INTENSE ukemi from Saotome Sensei in Japan. Don has every right to his opinion, as does Ellis (Original Graduate of the School of Hard Knocks).

Look, different people will have different opinions of those clips, of the clips of Shioda, etc. I know for a fact that there were yudansha that were praying Shioda Sensei wouldn't call them up for ukemi. Yoshinkan can be a very rough style, and just because someone has excellent physical skills doesn't mean they will embody the "peace and love" ethics of post war aikido. As long as the person signing up for the demo is aware of what's up...that's between them and their instructor.

Ueshiba Sensei put Shioda Sensei in the hospital for 3 days...after trashing the arm of the first uke in the demonstration before the emperor. That is some rough stuff...as Shioda Sensei was the founding member of the OGSHK himself ;). It is what it is. No need for any of us to be casting aspersions on the people who are making valid comments.

That doesn't mean I have to agree with them, or to take it as seriously as they do. But both Don and Ellis are buds, and I can't sit by and watch people mis-characterize them. Especially since I've felt and seen their waza, and know they don't match what some people have said.

Best,
Ron

Well It is not a matter of camp or mischaracterization or casting dispersion, is it?
I understand Don is your mate and you took what I wrote to heart;
however The soft/rough bit was addressed to all (hence the two bit of the post don and then all). I should probably posted separately but his comparison was a good support for my argumentation.

From what don wrote I understood that he found the roughness in the video was unacceptable and plain bullying, borderline of wife battering (which I find very excessive, but that is another story).
That really Tarring the sensei with the same brush that you believed I used on don.
Basically we can not judge, I can even understand making the point that it is rough, and not to ones tastes, however the tarring has been going for two pages.

My tack seems to be quite similar to yours.
We do not have enough elements to pass judgment on the men in the video, and you can practice aikido at different level of intensity. (And as I mentioned twice it is fine by me).
I am not sure if we are on the same line on the idea, that every physical activity has an inherent part of risk, and if you practice aikido with intensity thing will go wrong and the going is going to get rough and that is the way of things, It is the same in Rugby, American football, Greco roman wrestling, judo horse riding and so on. So if you are practicing a hard/tough /intense style of aikido, there will be some rough landing, even if you take precautions.
No bullying needed, that is the way of thing with "intense" activity.

Phil

philippe willaume

08-15-2007, 06:08 AM

Ha! That's cute. Had heard Ionesco's about cats being dogs, but hadn't heard this one.

But I don't think it applies, though. The psychology is the same, I think: The victim blames him/herself.

Oh, man! I hate to find myself on the other side of an argument with someone bashing Fox...If nothing else, thanks for that.

Societal and peer pressure certainly do obtain. I'll grant that economic variables don't. Still, the psychology is the same, blame yourself for someone else's brutality.

Uh, no. Some of it is criminal.

Sorry. Accountability seems right to me.

"I'm sorry, honey. I don't know what came over me. I promise not to do it again, and I'm cooking you dinner as soon as the doctor signs the release papers."

'Took him four or five bloomin' tosses to knock the poor guys senseless. For which would he be apologizing?

Poppycock. The evidence is right before us.

Actually, this distinction is untenable. It is precisely the "spiritually oriented" people who train the hardest, cf. Osensei. Don't think I count myself in this camp, but wouldn't be embarrassed to...

It is precisely the question of control we are discussing, isn't it. And some of us expect Mori of it, if you will.

Hello
I see where you are coming from and I see where we disagree.
(I can not get argumentative with someone that does not like Fox)

I think we both think that “landing” someone on his head, in practrice at least, is not a good thing to do. Ie that is not what we should be looking to achieve in training or demo.
We could get into countering each other example with a counter example.
Ie but he landed him on his head only once the head on 5,6…10 throw and then yes but he almost landed him on his head here and there but I think that is tangent to the issue.

To be fair, I have seen people continuing to go to dojo (or horse riding lesson). Not enjoying it for due to peer/parental pressure. And in that case I would agree with you that we are in the battered woman case. (i.e. I can not escape. And I blame myself to cope with the situation)
But I have seem many many more people simply quit, because the training was too hard or the did not like/believe in X,Y or Z.(and that X,Y or Z can be a single individual in whole group). I have seen that in martial arts, sports or extracurricular activity.
To me it seems that it is the most common behavior by far

So I think that side of your argument is intrinsically valid but would apply the only a small minority of Uke.

The other part of your argumentation that I think I disagree with is the responsibility and control on tori/uke side
No so much in the uke staying or leaving as I presented above but more on the practice side of thing.
For me it is criminal to practice with intensity without a safe frame. (Hence my reluctance with taijutsu free sparing, even though I really believe in pressure training)
However any intense training, spots or martial arts you will have accident.
Once I hit someone in the face with my lance feral (metallic sockets for the balsa tip). His saddle turned on the horse and his head replaced the targe.(the bit you are aiming at with the lance).of course it happened at the most opportune moment, when I was couching my lance to hit him.
He was a seasoned jouster, his equipment has been used many times on that horse, and his saddle turned after he had run several pass without problem in that very joust.

We all agree that hitting someone in the visor with a solid piece of wood, finished by a steel tube, all that on a800 kg horse at about 80kmh is stupid idea (Unless the helmet is specifically designed for that).
Now whose fault is it who is responsible, surely experience jouster should know better than that.

The more intensity you put in your training, the more minor deviation will have consequences. If you train safely those consequences will mostly result in being battered, but any intense pratice has an inherent possibility of permanent damage or even death.
I think it is criminal to practice in situation where those risk have not been reduce to a minimum but , provided that you freely engage in them, you have no ground to complain when the going gets tough.
(I understand that your bugbear with that line of reasoning is concerning people that are not freely engaging)

phil

phil

salim

08-15-2007, 06:54 AM

Who said this? The issue is brutality, not uniformity.

Osensei did it. And we ARE supposed to keep improving aikido, right?

I'm guessing this is a spurious distinction, as others have commented, above.

The point is that some interpret that Yoseikan or Aikibudo advocates and utilizes brutality. The methodology of one to another Aikido is not necessarily the same. Perhaps there are core principles that they share, but with vast differences as well.

We should improve our Aikido, but they will vary tremendously based on the focus of the style and methodology of Aikido, which we practice. You miss the point of the different methodologies of Aikido, there are not all the same, hence the interpretation of brutality will always be subjective to ones Aikido.

Sensei Mochizuki Minoru advocated a style of Aikido that was geared for self defense. He thought that there were some inherent fallacies with the Aikido that he learned. So his objective was to improve the art. He was a direct student of Morihei Ueshiba.

gdandscompserv

08-15-2007, 07:11 AM

Wow, this thread sure got lively.
:cool:
I don't recall my sensei ever injuring anybody. I never feared taking ukemi for him. In fact it was just the opposite. Always an honor and always one helluva ride. I knew it would be all I could handle. Complete and unwavering trust in him that he would keep me safe. All the while pushing me ever closer to the edge of my ability and endurance, and then some. That's how I learned it and how I try to transmit it.
However, I'm not going to suggest that other consenting adults need be subject to my training paradigms. I mean we pay people to get in cages and beat the snot out of each other. Slam into each other on the football field. Why we gettin all excited about some rough aikido. I don't subscribe to the "domestic violence" comparison either. In all likelihood, these uke's are paying good money for instruction. They must like it.:D

darin

08-15-2007, 08:04 AM

The point is that some interpret that Yoseikan or Aikibudo advocates and utilizes brutality. The methodology of one to another Aikido is not necessarily the same. Perhaps there are core principles that they share, but with vast differences as well.

We should improve our Aikido, but they will vary tremendously based on the focus of the style and methodology of Aikido, which we practice. You miss the point of the different methodologies of Aikido, there are not all the same, hence the interpretation of brutality will always be subjective to ones Aikido.

Sensei Mochizuki Minoru advocated a style of Aikido that was geared for self defense. He thought that there were some inherent fallacies with the Aikido that he learned. So his objective was to improve the art. He was a direct student of Morihei Ueshiba.

I think Mochizuki Sensei tried to create a MMA. He tested Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu and Shotokan Karate in France against fencing, savate, boxing and wrestling and basically came to the conclusion they don't work too well. However, he found judo and kendo to be very effective.

Yoseikan still retains its aikido techniques but at the higher levels the emphasis is on Judo/jujitsu. I think Mochizuki wanted to create a better martial art not a better aikido. His son has accomplished this in his own Yoseikan Budo.

Anyway getting side tracked here...

I think you can compare Yoshinkan aikido to say Kyokushin karate. Its just full on kick ass type of training therefore not for everyone...

salim

08-15-2007, 08:39 AM

I think Mochizuki Sensei tried to create a MMA. He tested Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu and Shotokan Karate in France against fencing, savate, boxing and wrestling and basically came to the conclusion they don't work too well. However, he found judo and kendo to be very effective.

Yoseikan still retains its aikido techniques but at the higher levels the emphasis is on Judo/jujitsu. I think Mochizuki wanted to create a better martial art not a better aikido. His son has accomplished this in his own Yoseikan Budo.

Anyway getting side tracked here...

I think you can compare Yoshinkan aikido to say Kyokushin karate. Its just full on kick ass type of training therefore not for everyone...

Aikido that we practice has a lot more to do with the original methodology of post WWII Aikido (Aikibudo) verses the creation of Yoseikan Aikido. The mentality of some is that post WWII Aikido advocates brutality, hence the styles of Aikido from Mochizuki Minoru's, Aikibudo and Gozo Shioda's, Yoshinkan Aikido.

My point is more of the methodology and implementation of techniques. Mochizuki Minoru kept the legacy of the original Aikibudo alive. Some people perceive some techniques in these two styles as brutality, which is simply not the case. The mentality of a person's Aikido is the problem here.

Ron Tisdale

08-15-2007, 08:58 AM

I think I better see where you are coming from. Thanks for the clarifications. See below for some addtitional comments.

Best,
Ron
Well It is not a matter of camp or mischaracterization or casting dispersion, is it?
I understand Don is your mate and you took what I wrote to heart;
however The soft/rough bit was addressed to all (hence the two bit of the post don and then all). I should probably posted separately but his comparison was a good support for my argumentation.

From what don wrote I understood that he found the roughness in the video was unacceptable and plain bullying, borderline of wife battering (which I find very excessive, but that is another story).
That really Tarring the sensei with the same brush that you believed I used on don.
Basically we can not judge, I can even understand making the point that it is rough, and not to ones tastes, however the tarring has been going for two pages.

My tack seems to be quite similar to yours.
We do not have enough elements to pass judgment on the men in the video, and you can practice aikido at different level of intensity. (And as I mentioned twice it is fine by me).
I am not sure if we are on the same line on the idea, that every physical activity has an inherent part of risk, and if you practice aikido with intensity thing will go wrong and the going is going to get rough and that is the way of things, It is the same in Rugby, American football, Greco roman wrestling, judo horse riding and so on.
Sure, I get that because I used to wretle in div 3 in college. The crucial difference there being that there was a referee who called fouls when someone slammed you too hard or unfairly, and that you were able to fully resist and defend yourself. In aikido, in kata training (a significant portion of yoshinkan training) uke is cooperating. Perhaps less than some other styles...but still cooperating, in that you have clear, structured attacks followed by then receiving your shite's throw. You are NOT resisting as in judo shiai, or a boxing match, or as in wrestling.

Therefore, the valid critique is that shite should not abuse that position in a non-shiai (but rather, kata) environment.

Of course injuries will happen accidentally; but that is not the topic of discussion here.

So if you are practicing a hard/tough /intense style of aikido, there will be some rough landing, even if you take precautions.
No bullying needed, that is the way of thing with "intense" activity.
Phil

Understood. But see above as well. I am kind of playing devil's advocate here, because I do see the need for looking under the hood, and evaluating openly other's perspectives, even on the style in which I mostly train. Even if in the end, I do not come to the same conclusions, even about the video in question.

happysod

08-15-2007, 09:01 AM

Some people perceive some techniques in these two styles as brutality, which is simply not the case. The mentality of a person's Aikido is the problem here. Happy to admit I'm biased in that I agree with Don and Kevin with regard to uke abuse. However, your phrasing interested me here - so if the clip that we all watched was not to be considered brutal or abusive, where would you actually draw the line? "first break"? "first hospitalization?" Don't get me wrong, nothing against a bit of brutality between consenting adults, but if I'm going to agree to get hurt I want the option to hurt you as well.

If you use a demo to display the "practicality" of your technique, at best you're showing the quality of your ukes, not your technique. I'd be more impressed with a demo if the elements of brutality and practicality were displayed without breaking the uke in the process - then I'd go wow and be interested in learning more.

Ron Tisdale

08-15-2007, 09:04 AM

Ron -
Class G war criminal - http://rmmla.wsu.edu/conferences/conf05cda/getabstractc2e4.html Clearly, a minor - "thought" crime.

Hi Ellis, I can't seem to find the info off of that page. Do you have to be a member to view it? I'll try again when work slows down a bit. The links I could find did not mention class G...just A through C.

Also, see Steve Morris's "No Hold's Barred" - Morris is an infamous guy in British karate circles - you can read about it on different areas on his own website. But what is interesting is the research he got into regarding martial arts and right-wing atrocities pre-and-during WWII - and a whole section in which he SEEMS TO fill in a LOT of blanks in Shioda Gozo's official biography.
http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/07Scorpionnoteslinks.htm

Excellent stuff. Known about some of it for some time, but no where near this level of detail. Really sheds some light on Ueshiba, Deguchi, Daito ryu, Shioda and that whole side of aikido that is often left unspoken.

I do not know how accurate all of Morris' research is - but some is clear historical record. And it's a read that makes one think.
I got a considerable reaction in one of my pieces in Dueling with Osensei (Tenchi: Head in the Clouds, Feet in the Muck) which asked some questions about Ueshiba's collusion and relationship with right-wing organizations, providing a meeting place at the Kobukan for what, by any definition was a terrorist organization.

I remember that piece...one of my favs!

Personally, I think we do far better - particularly in an art like aikido, when we take a clear-eyed look at what our teachers do and who they are. Learning and playing with violence is too important to leave anything to faith. We will make different decisions on whether to stay or leave -but this should be based on truth - not "reframing" (abuse is hard training) or wishful thinking ("he's spiritual thus he can do no harm" ) . . .Oh yeah, I'm repeating myself - I already wrote on this, didn't I?:rolleyes:
Best
Agreed.

Best,
Ron

Don_Modesto

08-15-2007, 09:05 AM

Spirited discussion. Thanks all.

Several posters have said things I could have or wished I'd said. I think perhaps we've begun reiteration. To summarize my thinking:

SMALL ISSUES:

* Can/Do teachers abuse?--My answer: Yes.
* Was Mori abusive?*--My answer: Yes.
* Are founders and SHIHAN human and given to the typical weaknesses of humans?--My answer: Doh!

BIGGER ISSUES:

* Do MA students fall into idolatry, hero worship, clouded thinking, and abusive relationships?--My answer: Yes.
* Have we a right to criticize our teachers?--My answer: Incontrovertibly, Yes.
* Have we a right to criticize others' teachers?--My answer: Of course.

...and Philippe--:)

Basia Halliop

08-15-2007, 09:06 AM

Some people perceive some techniques in these two styles as brutality, which is simply not the case.

Just to be clear, what _would_ you consider to be brutality? Can you give an example of a technique that you do find brutal? Or of one that some people perceive as brutal but you don't believe is so?

I've far more often heard people arguing that brutality and cheap shots were justifiable in some way (usually either that it had some positive psychological or training effect on the uke, or on the nage, or sometimes simply that the perpetrator was teaching enough skills that the brutality was 'a fair price to pay', or that it should be tolerated because the person was high ranked, etc), than arguing that things like intentionally increasing an attack on an already trapped uke, and some of the specific examples given, aren't actually brutal.

Ron Tisdale

08-15-2007, 09:09 AM

Well, please note that the uke in the clip was not broken or hospitalized to the best of our knowledge.

I also know people that have been hurt, broken, or hospitalized not from brutality, but simple accidents.

Unfortunately, I also know people who were hurt, broken and or hospitalized from what I consider brutality. And not just in Yoshinkan dojo, that's for sure.

Best,
Ron

Happy to admit I'm biased in that I agree with Don and Kevin with regard to uke abuse. However, your phrasing interested me here - so if the clip that we all watched was not to be considered brutal or abusive, where would you actually draw the line? "first break"? "first hospitalization?" Don't get me wrong, nothing against a bit of brutality between consenting adults, but if I'm going to agree to get hurt I want the option to hurt you as well.

If you use a demo to display the "practicality" of your technique, at best you're showing the quality of your ukes, not your technique. I'd be more impressed with a demo if the elements of brutality and practicality were displayed without breaking the uke in the process - then I'd go wow and be interested in learning more.

Ron Tisdale

08-15-2007, 09:17 AM

Just to be clear, what _would_ you consider to be brutality? Can you give an example of a technique that you do find brutal?

Just to be clear, I don't think THIS conversation is about WAZA that are brutal. It is about shite/nage's *application* of waza...after having broken balance, then using that opportunity to needlessly pile on the power.

As Boon mentioned in another (or the same, I forget) thread, I believe one of the purposes of yoshinkan training is to train uke that allow shite to express power (safely). That means uke must be trained to receive power (safely). With that in mind, you will see throws that constantly push the edge of uke...and that constantly push the edge of shite's control and application of power. That is often a major part of yoshinkan training. Such a fine line of balance between that and what may be percieved as brutality is drawn, that sometimes it will cross the line. That is a part of the risk we accept. Sometimes I have to inform someone that on a particular day, I am not up to what I might be up to on another day. Sometimes I have to say that I am just not up to it period.

Or of one that some people perceive as brutal but you don't believe is so?

Some people find the basic pinning version of shihonage in yoshinkan brutal because uke is really torqued and bent over backwards, then forcefully thown/pinned down, this followed by todome. All of which to me is simply a styistic difference, and no mark of brutality. Not to mention the fact that there are many non-yoshinkan schools that utilize the same or a similar form (some even aikikai).

Not really the topic here, though.
Best,
Ron

philippe willaume

08-15-2007, 09:18 AM

I don't so much disagree with this. It just seems to me that it's not really what the discussion/disagreement is about.

It's more like 'poor sportsmanship' or something, or like someone else put it 'cheap shots'. I think that's quite separate from hard training. It's more things like hitting someone who's already effectively surrendered (ie already falling or pinned). No matter how hard you like to train, it's easy to think of examples that seem like poor sportsmanship at best.
But it all boils down to the same thing though.
I think we are all convinced that one do not need to do "hard aikido" to use cheap shot.
In fact that type of behavior seems be evenly distributed through out the martial arts community). But I do not think this what we have on the ms Nori video.

I have the distinct feeling we are mixing intent, tactical philosophy (ie application of the technique and brutality. (as well as spiritual and soft). You can have lots of intent even a "soft" aikido.

Like in the video, which is a demo, and in a demo even when it is not choreographed, both uke and tori do their utmost to look good and deliver crisp technique.
So there is a big intent from both side, most of the time not really antagonistic. I mean when you are uke in demonstration you much more likely to promote the technique than resisting it
That mans that there is little margin for error and if Uke or Tori are slightly off, there is go chance for uke to go "splat". It does not mater who is the guilty party; it is very likely that Uke will reap the reward (i.e. go splat).
Even with soft aikido if you end up being the technique where there is intent; you are likely to go "splat".

From my limited experience, the difference between "hard" and "soft" is the ease for uke to avoid the "splat."
Either in way the technique is implemented or in the way it is set up, I would say that "hard" a much more restrictive on those escapes possibilities but it is still designed to permit a break fall but that break fall is really the easiest one if not the only one to get.

In softer aikido, I would say than when uke is in trouble break falling there is a direct correlation between Tori easing the power/control and the ease for uke to recover his break fall. In a way easing up the power helps uke to regain some of his balance.

In harder aikido easing control and power does not have such an effect when uke is in trouble break falling. It is kind of too late, it is about of an exaggeration but cutting of the power/control only equates as getting out of Uke way for his ukemi. There is no real active help that you can deliver as in softer style

I think as well this is what Don was about with his battered woman example.
With softer style you do need to get out your way to snot someone like in the video. So I can see why someone can see that as being totally out of order and a malevolent conscious act

But equally softer style people need to understand that harder style are intrinsecly designed to "make life difficult" for uke. So when things go pear shape there is much more ernest put on him in order to Ukemi. So there is no need for malevolent intention.

And in my opinion this is where the brutality or perception of it come from..

Basia Halliop

08-15-2007, 09:32 AM

happysod

08-15-2007, 09:48 AM

Unfortunately, I also know people who were hurt, broken and or hospitalized from what I consider brutality. And not just in Yoshinkan dojo, that's for sureNow here I certainly agree, believe it or not brutality and abuse can even exist in Ki-aikido. There's nothing like a ki-instructor having a hissy fit for the claws to come out - and surprisingly enough I've even had a "tai-chi for health" instructor attempt to get practical (yes, I annoy lots of people, it's a gift). I also agree accidents happen and will when you test the limits (which I also agree you should)

However, what I continually get annoyed with is the same attitudes that Ellis referred to - the glorification of a violent instructor when all they've ever shown is that when uke doesn't (or isn't allowed to) hit back, they can hurt them. Great, I challenge any and every martial artist in the world to take me on as long as first all their limbs chained securely to the deck and even if they struggle free they're not allowed to move. I'll soon show them who's hard... Essentially, that's the position uke is in in a demo so showboating is not inspiring.

Ron Tisdale

08-15-2007, 10:54 AM

Philippe, that last post of yours is much in line with my own thought. I'm kind of ashamed that I could not explain it as well.

Best,
Ron :)

Marc Abrams

08-15-2007, 11:43 AM

An art form is a vessel which forms itself around and becomes an expression of who we are. If a person is a violent, angry, insecure, hurt..... person, that will come through LOUD AND CLEAR in their own particular form of expression be it martial arts, or any other vessel of communicating one's self with the world. The same holds true for a centered, secure, happy person.

I started out in hard martial arts (Karate, etc), wrestled for a many years, crossed trained in a variety of martial arts and fighting sports before I found Aikido. I have found violence being intentionally expressed throughout EVERY ONE OF THOSE ARENAS! Ushiro Sensei (at this years Boulder Camp) said it is better to spend three years finding a good instructor than three years training with a bad instructor. I have been lucky to have always stayed with good instructors. NEVER, did anyone of them intentionally hurt any of their students. RARELY, if ever, did training accidents happen at the hands of those instructors.

As a psychologist, I can spend hours discussing the psychological issues surrounding teachers who are violent and those students that gravitate towards, stay with and later reflect that violence when they become teachers. This is not necessarily the venue for such a hot-aired discussion.

The larger issue that others have raised is that IT IS NOT THE ART, BUT THE PERSON. I have never experienced this Sensei's Aikido, nor can I necessarily gain enough information from this video clip to ascertain as to whether or not he was engaging in unnecessary violence towards his ukes. I can say very strongly, that I have never supported, engaged in, or trained under people who intentionally harm other people, simply because they can. If budo is suppose to forge us into better people, than I do not believe that this process can occur when training with, and emulating these types of people. I frankly find it pathological (in a psychological sense) and pathetic that those types of teachers and students are as prevalent as I have seen. I have come across too many people who had to stop training in martial arts and fighting sports because someone intentionally injured them in such a manner that permanent injury resulted.

We should always train with the intensity, sensitivity and severity so that the uke/attacker is aware of the danger and vulnerability that can occur in an instant without having to enact that danger through actual actions. The "thug" martial artist takes advantage of those moments to inflict harm was there was no need to do so. Doing this to someone "weaker", less skilled, and more vulnerable than the nage is simply an abuse of power. To me, the indication of a good martial artist is someone who can be open and accepting of the violent attack of someone else in such a manner that they can enter inside of the attack and control the attacker in a manner that is efficient, effective and does not include gratuitous violence, yet simply puts an end to the violence.

I can only hope that we as a community can accept different expressions of the art of Aikido, yet stand firm in our condemnation of those that are simply abusing power through thuggery, whether they be shihans, teachers, or students.

Marc Abrams

philippe willaume

08-15-2007, 11:45 AM

It sounds like you are saying that if people are falling badly or banging their head it's basically an accident. But if even the highest ranking people (ie, supposedly very skilled and also good at judging uke's ukemi), still very routinely have that happen on an ongoing basis (even in edited demo videos, where we may be getting above average examples), maybe it's time for that person to consider if they're really able to do that throw well enough to gamble on it like that on students with such a high rate of failing in a dangerous way? And if even they haven't mastered it, then can they really try to teach it to much less skilled people?

I think what we're really talking about aren't accidents, though, more an intentional way of ending a technique.

BTW I have seen and trained in ways that would (sometimes did) cause injury if there was an accident, and I don't think that's what we're talking about. I'm not sure exactly where my dojo fits into the spectrum but it seems closer to the hard than the soft... but I have also seen perfectly well that someone skilled enough, 'hard' or not, is capable of keeping enough judgement and control of the situation to avoid constant accidents to their ukes.

No that is not what I said at all.
In fact it has almost nothing to do with it and you will not get it unless you put yourselves in my side of the argument.
First Lets drop the caring for uke take. Basically in any martial arts you have to care for uke., If only for the reason that you will run out of partner. It just take a different form according to your style.

What I am saying is that I think I understand more precisely what Ron & Don where saying. I missed it until now because I coming from a harder aikido style. And before your post I did not realize that there was another rational to what they have been saying.
What I failed to get from Ron, Don and you was that in softer style tori can much more readily facilitate uke ukemi than in harder style.

It is not even a matter of soft or hard or martial or fluffy, it is a matter of what the application of the technique implies for Uke.or if you prefer what it constrains Uke to or what uke is able to do.
For that you have two components the way the technique physically works and the impetus with which it is done.

Regardless hard or soft, the more impetus or intent the more uke need to be on the ball.

It a bit of a generalization but with hard style, the technique puts more physical constrain on uke from the onset of the technique.
To oversimplify we could say that hard style technique have a greater intrinsic control, and frame the uke fall with the movement (soft style compensate/replace that with movement, so that is not really more martial per se ) .
That limits uke options for the ukemi much more drastically than in softer style. Usually the techniques are more direct (and take a shorter time to completion). As well it limits the help that tori can give to uke.

One way to be kind to uke, is to reduce the intent/impetus of the technique from the beginning. So that uke has sufficient time to take care of himself.
In softer aikido, tori reducing the imput at any point during the technique will help uke to recover his ukemi, with harder style not that much is possible after the beginning of the technique.

One way to express that is to say that Uke has more responsibility regarding is own break fall than in softer style.

For harder style it does not matter whose fault it is (ie who coked up) it can be uke or tori. The net result is that once the technique has started the only one that can do something about it is uke.
Statistically speaking it is more likely to happen with harder style, and there is no need for tori to have it in for uke, it just takes tori and uke not to be in sync.

What Ron & Don made me realize is that it is not really the case for softer style. To get the same result in softer style you need to actively want to snot uke.
So from that context their comment that it is way out of order is totally founded. And I agree with them
Hopefully if you have a softer approach, you will understand that if you come from a harder style, it does not denote ill intentions, it is just an occupational hazard that can happen when things go wrong (and not really the end result that tori expect).

So yes it is easy to see softer style as a bunch of big girl blouses and harder style as aikido after Modor fashion but may it is missing the forest for the tree.

Phil

ps thanks ron

Ron Tisdale

08-15-2007, 11:54 AM

Budd

08-15-2007, 11:54 AM

Part of this issue may be how well leadership sets the example - within a given population (dojo, sensei, behavior, boundaries, etc.) - versus the level at which they (leadership as well as the population) are held accountable for their actions (abuse, thievery, neglect, incompetence, etc.) and who is in a position to do so?

In some cases, it may be as simple as voting with your wallet (or even your participation), but in arts that have been influenced by "traditional" approaches to Japanese society, this may be even more problematic, since the "traditional" approach of working for harmony may result in ignoring a problem rather than addressing it.

Again, without commenting on the specific vid, I'm more or less stating (maybe the obvious . . . d'oh) how issues within an acitivity or organization can sometimes become ingrained - or even widely accepted.

Basia Halliop

08-15-2007, 12:24 PM

Phil, maybe I haven't seen enough different varieties of Aikido (ie, softer styles, etc) to be completely sure what you mean (or how it contradicts what I suggested, which is something vaguely along the line of 'if something's going wrong very often and people genuinely don't want it to, _something_ in the situation should change otherwise continuing as before starts being reckless and future accidents stop being accidents' Even if what went wrong is in routinely overestimating the falling skill of ukes, there's still something there).

And I also think the fact that things can unintentionally happen doesn't change the fact that it's also very easy for things to happen gratuitously, and sometimes even with ooos and aaahs for how 'tough' the person is.

Thanks for trying to explain, anyway.

tlk52

08-15-2007, 02:14 PM

Mori Sensei's aikido doesn't seem at all brutal to me....fairly normal stuff ..... I'm not sure that I understand what people are talking about here, at least in reference to this example

Lan Powers

08-15-2007, 04:37 PM

Mori Sensei's aikido doesn't seem at all brutal to me....fairly normal stuff ..... I'm not sure that I understand what people are talking about here, at least in reference to this example

You might re-read the post by RonT...
< Just to be clear, I don't think THIS conversation is about WAZA that are brutal. It is about shite/nage's *application* of waza...after having broken balance, then using that opportunity to needlessly pile on the power. >

The ENTIRE question started out as remarks on the "final-spike" with Tori's weight behind it (to all appearances).

About as well summed up as possible I believe.
Lan

Anjisan

08-15-2007, 09:49 PM

I believe that "excessive" or piling on has to be viewed within the proper context. As far at the sensei's demonstration, I can certainly see how accelerating after uke's balance was broken could certainly be seen as unnecessary. However, in a "street" or self-defence situation I can totally see its application. Specifically, one may want or need to make sure that the attacker and it is not simply about taking the attackers balance such as when one in on the mat. There is sometimes a mindset within Aikido that that is the total goal of any given situation. All one needs to do is take the attackers balance and keep taking the attacker's balance and the attacker will just tire of the experience and just give up, and of course--there will usually be a pinning opportunity. It seems that such individuals may have spent to much time in academics or at seminars and have not seriously studied or have been exposed to applying what they study (Aikido) to the street.

salim

08-15-2007, 11:18 PM

Kevin Wilbanks

08-16-2007, 12:12 AM

Finally someone understands self defense and the application of real self defense. Cheers!

Really? How likely do you think it is that you'll be able to execute a textbook technique and decide exactly how hard to apply it in "the street"?

Even setting this aside, there is still a potential problem with this idea. Unless you knock someone unconscious or so senseless they can't really get up, drilling someone into the ground hard isn't likely to calm them down or de-escalate the situation. I've had it done to me on carpet, and even though it was training, my emotional response was more along the lines of anger, and the urge to get up and attack again harder, not reconsidering whether I wanted to continue. It seems to me that you are going to have to amp this up to a near lethal level in the "street", or else you are likely to piss an attacker off and escalate the violence. In the context of the video, what was demonstrated was the application of far more force by nage than the attacker came in with, and the infliction of harm out of proportion with the attack. Not a very good fit with Aikido defense principles as I know them. I don't know what "street" is being imagined here, but I doubt that every offense that happens on it merits a severe concussion in response.

As for the idea that there is some kind of either/or between cracking someone's skull on the pavement, and dancing them around harmlessly until they get tired - this is silly, and yet another false dichotomy. Once you have helped someone to fall, you can: hit them on the way down, kick or hit them once they are down, go down with them and submit them with groundwork far more effective than Aikido pins, run away, grab a nearby object to use as a weapon, draw your gun... these are just a just a few of the options.

philippe willaume

08-16-2007, 03:48 AM

Well, let's be carefull (though I like your post very much). I can't speak for Don (well, I could, but he will probably hurt me if I do ;)), but I have never said that I think that clip is or is not abusive. I'm sitting on my nice white picket fence. :D

My main source of training is in the yoshinkan, so I am not at all unfamiliar with what some describe as "hard style".

I have to think some more about "softer styles" being able to have tori care for uke more. There is something to what I think you mean, but there are soft versions of waza that are still very sudden. And those soft styles work regardless of how uke attacks if you have the correct shite. And even in hard styles, you can still "pile on" at the end of a waza if that is your inclination, even though what you describe may be true to some or even a great extent.

Best,
Ron
hello ron.
yes I think that we are on the same wave lenght. that is what i was trying to convey with the intent ot impetus.
again it is overgeneralising but as far uke is concerned soft style with intent= hard style with intent.
as I agree you on with the pile on, hard or soft does not make a difference. May last post was not really clear about that for hard style.

phil

philippe willaume

08-16-2007, 05:43 AM

Hello bassia
It is quite difficult to explain via the net.
As Ron pointed out, you can be spiteful with harder style. Basically you can desk people intentionally, just as much as in softer style.
May be we can even argue that it is easier in harder style. (But it will be uke turn so it is easier for what goes around to actually coming around).
But it really has nothing to do with the style, it is the person that is an arse. I was replying to you saying that it sounded like I said that break falling was uke problem

What I was trying to say is that it is much easier to get decked unintentionally in harder style than it is in softer style. In harder style it is more difficult for to tori to help uke recover to break fall properly,

May be with an example:
If we take Irimi nague from whatever attack.
We all irimi on ura side of uke.

The way we do it is that we being the head of uke to our shoulder, and use the elbow of the back arm to push his spine forward and the other arm lefts his chin. (As position that is not that diffent form hasso). We could call that a head lock.
And either
Do another irimi and throw him (like in the original clip but without jumping)
Or keep the head there, tenkan to end up in the position describe earlier and then irimi as you throw

I have seen and practice a much softer version like when you are using the tenkan movement to drop uke forward and then use their attempt to get up to throw them.

If you use either technique with intent, uke will be behind the technique, if you are so incline you can deck him and there is not that much he can do about it.

But with the softer version if for example the bringing down put uke in a difficult position you can slow down and arrange the your pick up to make ukemi easier. So he can sort of catch up with technique.

With the "head lock" once the hasso is take the only thing tori can do is release the head lock and slow down the throw. That does not make ukemi easier, it just gives uke more freedom to ukemi, and uke is the only one of the couple that can do anything about it.

Obviously when you are training or in seminar, you can modulate the intent of the initial headlock so things seldom get out hand. But I think it is more likely to happen with harder style than softer style.
Personally I can live with being decked once and a while, the environment is safe and even minor injury seldom happens. It not worse that being tacked in rugby or American football and definitely softer than being decked by a 4 year old horse. :-)

salim

08-16-2007, 06:47 AM

Really? How likely do you think it is that you'll be able to execute a textbook technique and decide exactly how hard to apply it in "the street"?

Even setting this aside, there is still a potential problem with this idea. Unless you knock someone unconscious or so senseless they can't really get up, drilling someone into the ground hard isn't likely to calm them down or de-escalate the situation. I've had it done to me on carpet, and even though it was training, my emotional response was more along the lines of anger, and the urge to get up and attack again harder, not reconsidering whether I wanted to continue. It seems to me that you are going to have to amp this up to a near lethal level in the "street", or else you are likely to piss an attacker off and escalate the violence. In the context of the video, what was demonstrated was the application of far more force by nage than the attacker came in with, and the infliction of harm out of proportion with the attack. Not a very good fit with Aikido defense principles as I know them. I don't know what "street" is being imagined here, but I doubt that every offense that happens on it merits a severe concussion in response.

As for the idea that there is some kind of either/or between cracking someone's skull on the pavement, and dancing them around harmlessly until they get tired - this is silly, and yet another false dichotomy. Once you have helped someone to fall, you can: hit them on the way down, kick or hit them once they are down, go down with them and submit them with groundwork far more effective than Aikido pins, run away, grab a nearby object to use as a weapon, draw your gun... these are just a just a few of the options.

I agree with you. Do what ever it takes to defend against an attacker. Apply atemi waza were ever it is necessary.

Some people will perceive your Aikido as brutal.

happysod

08-16-2007, 07:03 AM

...Some people will perceive your Aikido as brutal.Only if Kevin applied it as a matter of course to his juniors. I think you're arguing a slightly different point of should aikido be brutal? rather than when should your aikido be brutal.

Quick aside, I'm starting to read an implication idea of "brutal = efficient" in some of the posts. Am I interpreting peoples posts correctly here or is it just me?

salim

08-16-2007, 09:15 AM

Timothy WK

08-16-2007, 09:47 AM

In regard to Mori-sensei, I checked out a few other vids of him on YouTube:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-119400198235779045
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6110314202978731998
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9219439046090774651
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-119400198235779045
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8392498881662328014

He *occasionally* seems to have issues with pushing down Uke's head during Irimi-nage, but not always. Other than that he doesn't really seem particularly "rough". That original video I think skews things, as they use some funky speeding-up and slowing-down to enhance the general "coolness" of the video. I'm not sure that he's really accelerating Uke's head beyond the natural acceleration of gravity. Though he obviously has strong technique.

philippe willaume

08-16-2007, 12:06 PM

Well really either soft or hard aikido does no really matter, if you do it in earnest that is going to be brutal for your opponent.
I mean the idea is either control you with pain or throw you on the floor. That does speak for itself does it not?
I mean you do not want him to counter the technique or to escape the technique, so you are going to go with full intent, not giving him a chance to recover, counter or escape.

Obviously, that is out of order in the dojo, but if you have to use aikido in earnest you might as well makes sure that you have a good head start when you run somewhere else. (As any reasonable man would do your honour).

Basia Halliop

08-16-2007, 12:52 PM

Only if Kevin applied it as a matter of course to his juniors. I think you're arguing a slightly different point of should aikido be brutal? rather than when should your aikido be brutal.

There's a rather large difference between someone genuinely trying to kill you and someone who is trying to help you demonstrate a technique, especially if you've already gotten past the point of no return and they have no way of fighting you back (ie, your technique has _already_ been effective, so anything else you do is gratuitous), and especially if it's a junior who is at a disadvantage to start with and presumably respects you and trusts you. I don't think it's really reasonable to compare the two.

I mean, taken to the extreme, even if you believe killing may be justified in some cases, no-one would argue we should kill the friends we train with 'for practice' after we've pinned them. Silly and extreme example, obviously, but there are many things where it may makes sense to train putting yourself in a dominant position where the choice would be there or whatever, but not necessarily justifiable or helpful to actually _do it_ to your uke once you've got them. Your uke is not actually a dangerous killer!

The ethical problem is compounded when two people are so mismatched both in skill and/or authority.

Aikibu

08-16-2007, 01:08 PM

There's a rather large difference between someone genuinely trying to kill you and someone who is trying to help you demonstrate a technique, especially if you've already gotten past the point of no return and they have no way of fighting you back (ie, your technique has _already_ been effective, so anything else you do is gratuitous), and especially if it's a junior who is at a disadvantage to start with and presumably respects you and trusts you. I don't think it's really reasonable to compare the two.

I mean, taken to the extreme, even if you believe killing may be justified in some cases, no-one would argue we should kill the friends we train with 'for practice' after we've pinned them. Silly and extreme example, obviously, but there are many things where it may makes sense to train putting yourself in a dominant position where the choice would be there or whatever, but not necessarily justifiable or helpful to actually _do it_ to your uke once you've got them. Your uke is not actually a dangerous killer!

The ethical problem is compounded when two people are so mismatched both in skill and/or authority.

Great Post. Now the only thing left to ask is Who doesn't get this?

William Hazen

Ron Tisdale

08-16-2007, 01:43 PM

salim

08-16-2007, 01:52 PM

Really, theirs too much speculation about the video and the intent. Only the two people involve know the true intention.

Basia Halliop

08-16-2007, 02:44 PM

For me personally, I don't know if I'm even talking about the original video anymore... it does provide a springboard for an interesting discussion on what is and is not acceptable. It just seems like the whole issue is something that often isn't taken seriously enough.

Kevin Wilbanks

08-16-2007, 07:14 PM

Only if Kevin applied it as a matter of course to his juniors. I think you're arguing a slightly different point of should aikido be brutal? rather than when should your aikido be brutal.

Quick aside, I'm starting to read an implication idea of "brutal = efficient" in some of the posts. Am I interpreting peoples posts correctly here or is it just me?

Actually, he's arguing a much different point.

My first point was that accelerating someone down after they are falling seems to me like it is of questionable general usefulness in real defense situations. If you don't hurt someone really seriously with it, it may just piss them off. If you do hurt someone really seriously with it, they better be trying to kill or maim you, or you could be looking at serious legal consequences, at least.

My second point was not that once someone attacks you, anything goes. Quite the contrary. I listed those options to show that smashing someone's head on the pavement and dancing with them are not the only two options. Once you've knocked somebody down, there is a whole spectrum of options.

Personally, I don't know what I would do "on the street". It would depend on the particulars. I certainly would not want something likely to kill or vegetablize the attacker built in as my unthinking response. I would rather take my chances with losing most any fight I'm likely to get into than risk going to prison.

As far as that likelihood goes, I started Aikido almost 15 years ago and have not been in a single fight or repelled an assault since. For me, being into Aikido primarily for martial "effectiveness' or "self defense" seems silly. First, it would mean that I have probably wasted all the time I have put into it up to now. Second, if I were seriously concerned with getting into real violent conflicts with people, the area covered by Aikido would represent only a very small portion of my training pie. I would be studying striking, weapons use (particularly firearms), groundwork, the law, psychology, strategy, possibly broader topics including sabotage, surviellance, the operation of military equipment, etc... Thinking that pounding your training partners into the mat vs. letting them fall as they may is the difference between effective self-defense vs. piddling around is delusional in my view.

Aikibu

08-17-2007, 01:52 AM

Hi William,

It's not so much who doesn't get that, as who doesn't think the video earlier in the thread represents what Basia is referring to.

I for one am not sure it does represent that, given the context of how the members of the yoshinkan train. In another dojo, it might be precisely that. But I am certainly not convinced that the video in question represents what Basia is saying. And I say this from an informed perspective of training in a similar style (same org., different dojo). So I do admit to some bias. I've been reading carefully, and have viewed the video several times, and have a fairly open mind.

Best,
Ron

Thanks the post Ron. Being in the film biz and having studied the video it's hard to make a solid judgement I agree. Most of my comments are directed to the subject that seemed to spring out of the initial posts. To whit... Does a Sensei/Nage have an ethical responsibility to refrain from excessive violence when demonstrating techniques to others?

I am pretty sure I know what your answer is. I am no stranger to hard practice myself. :)

Take Care :)

William Hazen

happysod

08-17-2007, 04:04 AM

My second point was not that once someone attacks you, anything goes. Quite the contrary...Understood Kevin, I never intended to imply you had, but I certainly think Salim is of this mind-setThinking that pounding your training partners into the mat vs. letting them fall as they may is the difference between effective self-defense vs. piddling around is delusional in my view.Wish I'd said this...

Marc Abrams

08-17-2007, 07:17 AM

William:

Your rhetorical question of a Nage's ethical responsibility was SPOT ON! When a person/uke has allowed his/herself to be placed in a vulnerable position and the nage takes advantage of that situation to inflict added pain/injury, that is simply abuse. A good teacher can demonstrate at any point in a technique, openings and variations to moves which CAN (as opposed to doing) disable, seriously injure, or even kill the uke.

I have had the honor of developing a good friendship with Ushiro Sensei since the first Aiki expo. At the Boulder summer camp this summer, I was getting a semi-private lesson from him. He was highlighting the point that I mentioned above, in that in Bujutsu, simple variants can simply kill. He demonstrated a strike angled up from the opening of the nose (a well-known kill strike) as a variant to a movement. Later that afternoon, I was uke during one of his classes. He was demonstrating this particular body movement and in response to my ATTEMPT to strike him, his hand lightly struck under my nose (one of several strikes within a span of under two seconds) at an angle that would not cause injury to me. I obviously was not injured by that interaction, but learned the lesson as to the POTENTIAL of what we can do in real encounters.

The degree of control over one's actions should be what we strive for, as opposed to how good we might look in front of others by hurting somebody.

Marc Abrams

Kevin Wilbanks

08-17-2007, 08:36 AM

Understood Kevin, I never intended to imply you had, but I certainly think Salim is of this mind-set

Yes. The post was more of an additional response to the post you were responding to. I guess it was a strange way of quoting.

arderljohn

08-17-2007, 08:51 AM

not bad for the hot striker! I could say, hmmm... to good to be true :D. diffrent folks with a diffrent stroke :D

Daniel Ranger-Holt

08-26-2007, 02:48 PM

I must say those Aikido videos posted here, are the best i think ive seen. I need more names of actual decent sensei. Typing in Aikido in youtube has never given me videos as dynamic as these ones. Good stuff to watch. Would love to know some names of some more recommended.

JamesDavid

08-26-2007, 09:18 PM

“Concrete is our friend, hard be the ground lined with sticks and stones, from dust you come and to dust we return you”

Part of the Yoshinkan mantra

ad_adrian

08-27-2007, 06:48 PM

this is mori sensei at japan for their 50th aniversary demonstration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHglRHtYnM4

and this is him in 1993 in japan over 14 years ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyx4yKH9NPE&mode=related&search=

David Yap

08-28-2007, 04:04 AM

Hi all,

Just like Ian (happysod), I too have the gift of annoyance. I believe I am at most time too outspoken to keep my gap shut and most people often take my well intentions negatively and worst - a personal attack. Living dangerously in this small aikido community, some say.

First of all, I have no issues with Mori's techniques and video (the main topic).

Like most of the posters here who had discussed on the topic of abuse in the dojo, I agree that a line must be drawn between violent/brutality/abuse and realism in training. Here, I borrow a quote from someone's website (whom I believed I have also annoyed):

The Path to enlightenment is the acknowledgement of violent, the embrace of it as part of our being.

There is no doubt we all recognized and accept the nature of violent and accept that it is part of our being and that of all animal life form on this planet. Conscience is what that separate man and beast in the animal kingdom. In any dojo, one has to judge the level of realism of a violent attack and response. By being an Uke, one has already surrendered to the Nage at the beginning of a technique; it is inhumane (as Nage) to "dish-out" more than he has received, especially when the Uke has no means (spiritually/physically) of responding to the Nage's action.

Like most posters here, I have no qualms about reality training in a dojo but I do have an issue with ungentlemanly behavior and lack of sportsmanship. IMO, a senior practitioner/an instructor who consciously abused a senpai or student with more force then required has absolutely no class. There is a very broad line between negligence and the intention to hurt.

Just my 2 sen.

David Y

villrg0a

08-31-2007, 03:21 AM

Well, if given the chance I will train with Mori sensei and would recommend the rest of our dojo to the same. If some of you think he is abusive, you aint seen nothing yet. That particular technique is standard, ukes are taught well, very very well on how to handle those type of throws. He is a master in his own right, and have mastered the basics very well, everything he does is in unison w/c makes his techniques rather strong. Afterall, he was the last uchi deshi of the late Gozo Shioda Kancho, the founder of Yoshinkan Aikido.

Walter Martindale

09-01-2007, 03:53 PM

The clip reminds me of an essay by another uchideshi, David Lynch, who spoke of Shioda deliberately hurting UKE for the pleasure of the audience and making jokes about it.

Why would you smack a cooperating UKE's head into the mat like that?

Did Mori quip to the audience with disarming insouciance, "He hit his head, you know"?

I sure with some of the "real" attackers' cases had been recorded on video like these choreographed things. Oh! to see Oh!ba going after Osensei. The judoka after Tohei. The uchideshi taking on the longshormen who teased Osensei...

Haven't seen much "real" attackers, the closest I've come to that is at demos with one of my past sensei and 3 or 4 attackers with no choreographed attacks. We all essentially tried to kill him, but ended up in a heap on the ground, a little sore and not really injured but we never laid a hand on him - and we included a TKD nidan, a former professional full-contact karate godan, myself (judo shodan) and a couple of kung-fu types.
At that level, the "demo" and not "real" level, we were being cast to the ground in a big hurry and left part way down to figure out our own ukemi while he dealt with another attacker - if we weren't up to protecting ourselves with adequate ukemi, it hurt because we landed on "corners". I suspect that if it was "real" there would have been a little more grunt in the finish of the throws, with us being directed head-first to the ground at a speed where we would have had trouble coping with the direction and velocity of the impact. An in-class demonstration full-speed direct-drop shihonage just about put me out, and I was expecting to be thrown hard - the neck muscles only just kept me from really whacking my head.
The uke in Mori's video appear skilled and up to the task, and I suspect that his waza would have been different with uke who were less skilled.
From my judo days; we used to practice a lot of what we called "uchikomi" - entering for a technique repeatedly, but not finishing off. When we got to randori, we'd enter for the technique, but not have the kuzushi or the finish to actually complete the throw, because we'd practiced stopping so often... It took quite a while to overcome that.
In the Aikido practice, the amount of "umph" I put into the end of a throw depends on a) how much I trust uke to land safely, b) how much I want to take back from uke when he/she becomes nage, because my throwing them hard is tacit permission for them to return the favour, c) how close we are to the wall or other pairings, etc. As I'm only a shodan, only able to make about 1 training per week with my schedule, and in my 50's now, I don't do this too often because it then takes a while to recover from practice.

I think that a lot of us senior (age-wise) students have gotten old enough to not really enjoy being thumped around that much any more, but I think also that it's more honest as a martial art to have a bit of grunt at the end of a throw to keep uke's skills developing or at least keep them from deteriorating, and to keep the neurological patterning intact, to be able to "finish" a throw if we ever have to do it "out there" - if we practice with "finish", we don't have to change our thinking when it matters. (That applies also the the speed and "reality" of the attacks, but that's a whole other thread that's been discussed elsewhere.)

Cheers
Walter

Ron Tisdale

09-04-2007, 10:15 AM

Nice Post Walter, Thanks,
Best,
Ron

Aiki1

09-04-2007, 10:26 AM

I think that a lot of us senior (age-wise) students have gotten old enough to not really enjoy being thumped around that much any more, but I think also that it's more honest as a martial art to have a bit of grunt at the end of a throw to keep uke's skills developing or at least keep them from deteriorating, and to keep the neurological patterning intact, to be able to "finish" a throw if we ever have to do it "out there" - if we practice with "finish", we don't have to change our thinking when it matters. (That applies also the the speed and "reality" of the attacks, but that's a whole other thread that's been discussed elsewhere.)

That's one valid approach. In my style, it is the opposite, and no less "real" in terms of practicality (unless you want to hurt someone, which is easy to do under the circumstances.) The ideal end of one of our "throws" is - "What happened?!?!?" and that to me is far more valuable in terms of what * I * want out of Aikido. It's a different concept of "finish."

Ron Tisdale

09-04-2007, 10:58 AM

Are "what happened??" and what Walter described incompatable? Personally, I didn't think so. From your other posts though, I think I could see how your practice might differ (and nothing at all wrong with that).

Best,
Ron

Aikibu

09-04-2007, 11:18 AM

Haven't seen much "real" attackers, the closest I've come to that is at demos with one of my past sensei and 3 or 4 attackers with no choreographed attacks. We all essentially tried to kill him, but ended up in a heap on the ground, a little sore and not really injured but we never laid a hand on him - and we included a TKD nidan, a former professional full-contact karate godan, myself (judo shodan) and a couple of kung-fu types.
At that level, the "demo" and not "real" level, we were being cast to the ground in a big hurry and left part way down to figure out our own ukemi while he dealt with another attacker - if we weren't up to protecting ourselves with adequate ukemi, it hurt because we landed on "corners". I suspect that if it was "real" there would have been a little more grunt in the finish of the throws, with us being directed head-first to the ground at a speed where we would have had trouble coping with the direction and velocity of the impact. An in-class demonstration full-speed direct-drop shihonage just about put me out, and I was expecting to be thrown hard - the neck muscles only just kept me from really whacking my head.
The uke in Mori's video appear skilled and up to the task, and I suspect that his waza would have been different with uke who were less skilled.
From my judo days; we used to practice a lot of what we called "uchikomi" - entering for a technique repeatedly, but not finishing off. When we got to randori, we'd enter for the technique, but not have the kuzushi or the finish to actually complete the throw, because we'd practiced stopping so often... It took quite a while to overcome that.
In the Aikido practice, the amount of "umph" I put into the end of a throw depends on a) how much I trust uke to land safely, b) how much I want to take back from uke when he/she becomes nage, because my throwing them hard is tacit permission for them to return the favour, c) how close we are to the wall or other pairings, etc. As I'm only a shodan, only able to make about 1 training per week with my schedule, and in my 50's now, I don't do this too often because it then takes a while to recover from practice.

I think that a lot of us senior (age-wise) students have gotten old enough to not really enjoy being thumped around that much any more, but I think also that it's more honest as a martial art to have a bit of grunt at the end of a throw to keep uke's skills developing or at least keep them from deteriorating, and to keep the neurological patterning intact, to be able to "finish" a throw if we ever have to do it "out there" - if we practice with "finish", we don't have to change our thinking when it matters. (That applies also the the speed and "reality" of the attacks, but that's a whole other thread that's been discussed elsewhere.)

Cheers
Walter

Great post and I agree for the most part. I have a 70 year old Shodan with arthritis and he likes a good thumping practice. My only point is intent. A technique executed with Malice is not appropriate for any reason unless it's a matter of life and death. I actually believe that hard practice weeds out Malice over time. I know it has in my case. Shoji Nishio and my Sensei Mike Fowler are great believers in "turning swords into plowshares" through sincere and hard training.

Old timer or not... Master or not... Should someone take advantage of my vulnerability to put a hurt on me and I sense Malice in thier actions my next Ukemi might surprise them a bit. :)

William Hazen

Walter Martindale

09-05-2007, 02:42 AM

Great post and I agree for the most part. I have a 70 year old Shodan with arthritis and he likes a good thumping practice. My only point is intent. A technique executed with Malice is not appropriate for any reason unless it's a matter of life and death. I actually believe that hard practice weeds out Malice over time. I know it has in my case. Shoji Nishio and my Sensei Mike Fowler are great believers in "turning swords into plowshares" through sincere and hard training.

Old timer or not... Master or not... Should someone take advantage of my vulnerability to put a hurt on me and I sense Malice in thier actions my next Ukemi might surprise them a bit. :)

William Hazen

This is sort of what I meant - I give myself to a nage in practice so that he or she can get better at the waza being practiced, and that I can improve my ukemi. We take turns, and if the uke I'm working with can handle it (after 8 years of judo in the 1970s, Aikido since 1993, and 24 years as a professional coach, I'm reasonably good at discerning a person's athletic abilities), I put a little more into the kime/finish of the technique. That gives them permission to throw me a little harder.
If I'm practicing with someone with equal or greater ability and he or she exploits my offer of my body for practice (i.e., with malice or mischief) I get a little cranky and respond in kind - thing is - most Aikido folks I've practiced with haven't had the competitive judo background, and a good shiai ending can get some attention - now, that said, the usual response is to suggest that as a stiff old man, I don't really need to get bashed about...
All _that_ said, since I started Aikido I've only encountered two individuals who I would call thugs in practice, and one was probably just my mis-reading of what happened when I was quite tired at Aikikai Hombu in Tokyo (only visited there 4 times).
Cheers
Walter

Mark Gibbons

09-05-2007, 09:34 AM

.... I'm reasonably good at discerning a person's athletic abilities), I put a little more into the kime/finish of the technique. That gives them permission to throw me a little harder.
If I'm practicing with someone with equal or greater ability and he or she exploits my offer of my body for practice (i.e., with malice or mischief) I get a little cranky and respond in kind ....
Cheers
Walter

Interesting. If I think I can take harder ukemi, I'll give nage a more energetic attack. I'd rather set the pace myself if possible. Finishing harder to give them permission to thump me wouldn't work for me. I don't have enough control to be that clear as nage. And most people I train with would probably be annoyed.

Regards,
Mark

Walter Martindale

09-07-2007, 02:08 AM

Interesting. If I think I can take harder ukemi, I'll give nage a more energetic attack. I'd rather set the pace myself if possible. Finishing harder to give them permission to thump me wouldn't work for me. I don't have enough control to be that clear as nage. And most people I train with would probably be annoyed.

Regards,
Mark

Well, there's that, too.. A firmer, quicker attack gives my partner more to play with and I have to be on the ball to accept it. I guess it works both ways - if I attack them with more energy they get to thump me around a little more - which I guess gives them the go ahead to attack me with more energy?
One of my former senseis says that his dojo uses coloured belts to indicate that you can throw some people harder than others - e.g., it was gokyu-yellow, yonkyu and sankyu - blue, nikyu and ikkyu - brown - the yellow belts weren't thumped too hard, blue a bit harder, and brown were fed to the sharks (he wouldn't put us up for grading unless we were ready as a grading is as much a test for the sensei as it is for the student)
W