Timothy WK
08-08-2007, 05:35 AM
Well, for about 5 pages of that E-budo thread you get a bunch of people talking about how things just look a little off.
I could be wrong, but I'm with Neil. Yes, it's done better than the usual slap-dash conglomeration of fake koryu, but some things about the info provided and the techniques displayed raised red flags.
As Neil said, traditional budoka don't need to use a tasuki with modern keikogi because there's nothing that needs to be tied up, like big sleeves of a montsuki. I figured, oh well, maybe they're doing it because they saw their sensei do it in Japan and they don't have montsuki..but then, some other stuff bothered me. The shurikenjutsu was kind of lame. The iainuki, zanshin, and demo of sword techniques seemed to have bad ma-ai, overly elaborate methods , bad tenouchi (if it's WAS koryu; if it's more modern...then whatever floats your sail).
I was willing to take it all with a grain of salt because I've seen worse, and maybe they were some odd offshoot of some odd offshoot. Their jujutsu stuff did look pretty fast, very much like Daito-ryu, mixed with some kurottee punches, but as a mix, it seemed well done.
But then I saw their pages about chanoyu. I get possessive about chanoyu because it's one of the hardest disciplines I ever studied. Drove me half-crazy. Doing jujutsu is like a vacation compared to full-time tea practice for an extended length of time. Don't you be doing some boojiggie with my chanoyu and passing it off as legit.
The kensui waste water bowl in the pics is in a totally wrong position relative to the person. One picture has the student doing something with the tea whisk while holding the bowl, with the kensui in the right side. To someone not schooled in tea, it looks pretty cool. To someone who's done it, it's pretty darn weird. It doesn't make sense, technically speaking, esp. her position relative to the wall and the water ladle handle. I'd say exactly why, but it would take up too much bandwidth. Suffice it to say, I know of no legit Sen school of tea that would end up in that position. Also, a female student is shown in white uwagi and hakama; that's never worn in tea. More proper in seppuku ritual, perhaps. Stuff like that got my attention.
There's a lot of discussion about Sen No Rikyu and the Urasenke system and the "current" (actually, the previous) headmaster, Daisosho Sen Soshitsu (now Genshitsu). But no info on how the group is connected to Urasenke, if any. There IS an Urasenke branch in Brazil. But no info about their location, the group's relationship, the teacher's status and teaching rank. If the person has a teaching rank, he'd also have a chamei, a tea name, proudly up somewhere on the web page because it's a big deal. The name is one indication of his lineage due to the kanji. I didn't find any chamei. These things are not supposed to be secret. They are supposed to be up front and clearly described to show one's relationship to Urasenke.
So I went back to the martial arts stuff and looked at it with very critical eyes.
Maybe they did learn something legit. If so, it's obfuscated by some hokey stuff. Well done hokey stuff, but hokey stuff nonetheless. Yeah, they've been shown in a budo magazine. And if they're in a magazine, they gotta be legit, right? Hummmmm.
I COULD be wrong. They COULD be legit in terms of their budo and I'm just a knee-jerk whiny doofus (move over, Neil), and I'm just badmouthing their form irresponsibly. Maybe. Dunno, though. Their web site raises more questions for me than answers. Well, whatever. If they enjoy what they're doing, then caveat emptor, or something like that. Just don't ask me about their chanoyu or I'll go nuts again.
...
Looking at just some of the vidoes Victor posted as links (geeeeeeeez Louise, they like to post videos), my own opinion is that they have no real "base." They have cribbed a series of movements that start out from different styles and added some eccentricities of their own. I see traces of Eishin-ryu, Katori Shinto-ryu, Ikkaku-yu, Takenouchi-ryu, Don Angier's system, and some other stuff, and I only glanced at some five or six of those videos before I stopped. I'm sure there's more to be found were one to go through all of those videos.
I have a feeling that a lot of those techniques were taken from DVDs, videos and books. Maybe there was some prior training in judo, aiki, and or karate, then it got a good shaking and voila; Ogawa-ryu martial arts, tea ceremony, and calligraphy. They are certainly energetic about it. But as a gas station attendant said when I was traveling through the southern part of the United States (I had no idea at the time what he was saying), "Thet thar dawg don' hunt!"
--Wayne Muromoto
The history they gave was also suspect.
Here is a rough translation of much of the main page of this organization's website (my Portuguese is rusty, but still serviceable). Hope this helps give some background to what these folks are about.
By the way, their website appears to be well-intended. It has a good narrative about the history of Japanese immigration to Brazil. Brazil has the largest Japanese population in the world outside of Japan.
Here's a link to the original Portuguese web page this comes from.
http://www.bugei.com.br/bugei/history.asp
"Kaze no Ryu Bugei is the “martial art like the wind”. It was developed by the Shizen people, who inhabited the forests of Hokkaido, in the north of Japan, during the Kamakura era (1192 – 1333). During that time, the art was called “Uchiu Shizen” which means “dominion over nature and space”.
The origin of the Shizen is linked to the Ainu (the true natives of Japan, who are closer ethnically to Caucasians than to the Japanese) who were forced into the north of Japan for centuries. Documents from the year 801 indicate that the Ainu tribes were defeated in the north by Tamuramaro Sakanoue (Oscar Ratti). The repressed Ainu joined forces with others who were unhappy under feudal rule, such as various ronin and farmers, and took refuge in hidden forest villages. In direct contact with nature, these people developed their own culture and traditions. Four villages comprised the Shizen people: Kawa, Yabu, Tayo and Yama.
The Shizen developed their own language – “Shizen-go” – as well as their own religion, the “O-Chikara” – based on the cult of natural forces, called Tengu.
The Bugei taught by the SBB comes from the Ogawa Shizen Kay school, which descends from the village of Kawa. History confirms that the "Kaze no Ryu" was established by Yorike Mizuguchi who, influenced by Choisai Iizasa and with the help of the Japanese “kami” (gods), changed the direction of the martial ways of the Shizen.
"Kaze no Ryu", like other styles, developed through constant technical refinements which, together with a continually evolving base of principles, determined the path of development of the art...
...thousands of examples of mortal combat between two men formed a human experience that became an intrinsic aspect of the Japanese soul...
... Yorike Mizuguchi, who later changed his name to Manabo Ogawa, is the root of the Ogawa family tree. Yorike was a priest who believed that messages from the gods were the basis of his development. Manabo is recognized by the priests as the Kokeisha (direct successor) of the traditional lineage of the village of Kawa.
It is believed that his adopted name – Ogawa – is undoubtedly an homage to his rebirth in the waters of the “little river” that runs through the village..."
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Howard Spivey
Thanks, Howard, for the rough translation. Understandably, there may be something lost in translation, but...
..."Kaze no Ryu Bugei is the “martial art like the wind”.
It's actually more like martial culture of the Wind Style, although properly it would be called Fuuryu. Hmm. Where did I hear that name before? No "like."
...It was developed by the Shizen people, who inhabited the forests of Hokkaido, in the north of Japan, during the Kamakura era (1192 – 1333).
No such people. Shizen just means "natural." As in All Natural Organic vegetables. Natural herbs. To my knowledge no such "tribe" called "The Naturals" existed in Japan.
During that time, the art was called “Uchiu Shizen” which means “dominion over nature and space”.
...More like "Outer Space Natural." More to the point, it doesn't make much senes in Japanese.
The origin of the Shizen is linked to the Ainu (the true natives of Japan, who are closer ethnically to Caucasians than to the Japanese) who were forced into the north of Japan for centuries.
People used to think that but I believe that recent DNA tests show that they are probably more Mongol (North Asian) than Caucasian, related to Mongolians, Mancurians and other North Asian (and North North American Native Americans) than Caucasians.
...Documents from the year 801 indicate that the Ainu tribes were defeated in the north by Tamuramaro Sakanoue (Oscar Ratti).
I'm not sure of Ratti's source, but splitting hairs, I believe that documents called those northern tribes "barbarians" or Emishi, and Emishi is a problematic word that doesn't describe Ainu per se. The Emishi may have been some Ainu tribes, but they may have also included simply groups who didn't want to have anything to do with the Imperial Court, but were ethnically and culturally of the same culture.
...Four villages comprised the Shizen people: Kawa, Yabu, Tayo and Yama.
Ah...Nope.
...The Shizen developed their own language – “Shizen-go” –
"Natural language?" Baby talk? Shizen-go makes no sense.
...as well as their own religion, the “O-Chikara” – based on the cult of natural forces, called Tengu.
O-Chikara: Honorable Strength? Big Strength? Tengu are demons, considered forces of nature, but not all of natural forces.
...The Bugei taught by the SBB comes from the Ogawa Shizen Kay school, which descends from the village of Kawa. History confirms that the "Kaze no Ryu" was established by Yorike Mizuguchi who, influenced by Choisai Iizasa and with the help of the Japanese “kami” (gods), changed the direction of the martial ways of the Shizen.
"History" as in what reference? Certainly not in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten or the Honcho Bugei Shoden, where one would think it would be listed, especially if it had links to the TSKR and Iizasa line.
... Yorike Mizuguchi, who later changed his name to Manabo Ogawa, is the root of the Ogawa family tree. Yorike was a priest who believed that messages from the gods were the basis of his development. Manabo is recognized by the priests as the Kokeisha (direct successor) of the traditional lineage of the village of Kawa.
???? Priest...as in Shinto priest? My understanding is that a whole village doesn't inherit a Shinto lineage, but this may be my own bad reading of the translation.
Yes. At least no ninja visions in a dream, but aliens from outer space ate my brain if I believed all this. Oddly, though, they attack the fabrication of their lineage as vigorously as they do their techniques. Lots of work went into this, but WHY in Heaven's name go through all that trouble when you could just hop on a plane and study something legit and return, rather than live out a lie? Why? Why do I keep receiving spams for helping little old millionairre ladies from Nigeria or North Korea? Why are there bogus Medal of Honor winners? Why do these guys fascinate me in a sick way?
Wayne Muromoto
At one point, one of the school's students steps in to help "clarify" things:
Dear members, practicioners and experts,
Congratulations for the forum and for the excelent degree of its participants and contents.
In the name of the CNKB - Conselho Nacional de Kaze no Ryu Bugei (National Council of Kaze no Ryu Bugei), registered in Brazil, and under request of superiors, I will attempt to clarify some of the questions hereby presented.
The story of our style, former “Kaze no Ryuu Bugei”, started in the Kamakura age - 1192 a.C. - 1333 a.C., with the shizen people, at that time living in the north of Japan, nearby Hokkaido. Closely related to the Ainu people, known as the first natives of Japan, the Shizen people were few, composed by the repressed Ainu and other discontent with the feudal regimen, such as rounin and farmers, among others. Notably, as rebels and few, all efforts were made towards keeping themselves hidden and silent. Mr. Oscar Ratti, author of many books, which most of you certainly know, mentions in his book “Secrets of the Samurai” some passages of the Ainu people being pushed back into the northern lands of Hokkaido, which accords to some part of the teachings being passed, surely, at least three generations from the present one, from teacher to student, as the usual. Mr. Ratti’s book, however, is not the only available source for researching the fact that the Ainu people and culture like people (where the term “Emishi”, used in Japan to designate those tribes from that time, with different culture, habits and language from the “nihon jin”– japanese people – came from) existed, opposed and resisted the rules of the Japanese Emperors – many citations and explanations can be found in the Encyclopedia Britannica and there are several books about their history.
There, with the constant need to learn / develop a martial art (in the original sense of the expression, remounting the roman god of the war, Mars – not only self-defense), a system that could provide effective means when life is indeed threatened during conflicts and combats, it was compiled a style, at that time called “Uchiuu Shizen”.
Naturally, due to the great deference that many bushi had for the arts but martial, such as the calligraphy, the painting and the meditation, among others and to the practice of those as a habit, it was incorporated to the style and studies.
The teachings from the school say that the name “Kaze no Ryuu” (style of the wind) was baptized by Yorike Mizuguchi because of the strategical knowledge that aimed to deceive the enemy, that is, moving forward and backward, as the wind. The possibility of writing the kanji for wind, “kaze”; and style, method, “ryuu”, in its chinese readings, onyomi, respectively, “Fuu” and “Ryuu” (already), although makes a lot of sense in Japanese, could lead to a misunderstanding, since “Fuuryuu”, with exactly those kanji, is a word of common use, meaning “elegance”, or something like “refinement”, being a noun or an adjective. Anyway, the name “Kaze no Ryuu” has been taught surely, at least, since Ogawa Sensei.
The course of history reaches Ogawa, Hiroshi, known as a genious man in his martial art – at the same time, a man that passed through many frustrations and bitternesses in his lifetime, notably being a person quite difficult to live with. From this point of view, in all the story of Ogawa Sensei, there are three versions: his own, the one from his enemies and the true one. We know only his own.
This small résumé, however, may be seen as legend, and there is no manner to comprove it. There is no way to attest that the style is definitively ancient, nor that the grand parents of Ogawa Sensei already practiced like that.
From that on, we, his students, deal with the responsability of passing forward what was transmitted from him. We are not filiated to any kind of organization, even because Ogawa Sensei did not like to show up and did not allow his students to appear frequently in every event around – and this feeling was absorbed by everyone active in the group. It was only later, in the later 90’s, that Jordan Augusto Shidoushi started to gradually disclose the structure set.
Although, as mentioned, we are not filiated to any kind of organization, at the same time we continue the method of Ogawa Sensei.
Ogawa Sensei always said he taught Koryuu, and for every movement and sequence of Koryuu there was a precise explanation for that movement at certain time of the history and according to the line of thoughts of the ancient warriors. And it is kept untill nowadays. Because of the very large amount of details and references to such ancient things, objects, weapons, situations and ways of thinking, it was always clearly taken that what was studied reached ancient times.
Furthermore, Ogawa Sensei developed several studies beyond the classical sequences, which made the students of the Ogawa Sensei’s school quite different, technically, from others students of Kaze no Ryuu Bugei. As a matter of preserving what was taught by Ogawa Sensei, his students began to refer to it as Ogawa Ryuu, and, probably, at this time the most correct was Ogawa Ryuu Ha.
In the same way, aiming the preservation of what was taught in Brazil, all the Seiteigata was catalogued and photographed and it is kept as internal documents of the school.
Anyway, if it is a Ryuu, a Ryuu Ha or a method created by himself, we do not have how to know it securely and it is extremely hard to be comproved deeply.
About the study in Ogawa Ryuu, since Ogawa Sensei’s time, it was developed under subjects, or arts. Many of them are briefly discribed in our site: www.bugei.com.br
Also, it can be found at http://www.bugei.com.br/bugei/bugeinobrasil.asp the most coherent history, with names and dates, about the early development of the Ogawa Ryuu Bugei in Brazil.
So, under the subject “Juujutsu”, for exemple, all the postures, breathing, disposal of hara, angles, ma-ai, timings and peculiar characteristics will be according to the specific ways of thinking present in Juujutsu. In our style, Juujutsu is typically an art of self-defense, used most generally in situations of agressions, attacks or situations of everyday. The sequences and movements comprove this historical feature, and so do all the details surrouding the study. We note that these characteristics of this little example may be surely applied to our Juujutsu only – among the so many existing styles of Juujutsu, there are certainly some that were not developed mostly for self-defense.
For each subject, different studies, different exercises, different explanations.
On the other hand, the school sets two kinds of study and practice: one the classical sequences and the other is the free form – in which Ogawa Sensei stood out the most. In the free form, logically, every practicioner and teacher make efforts to polish and improve himself, and that one changes constantly, for it pursuits the maximum reality within limits - but never adulderate the Koryuu Seiteigata forms.
In the videos and documentaries that are available in the site – all the videos made in the institution available to the public may be found there - there are many ones showing Seiteigata forms, other ones showing free forms. Someones are performed by Shidoushi, others by older students and yet, others by very begginers. Obviously, the purpose of each one if different.
We truly admire researchers who share their opinions in a serious way with other people and believe that this can lead to great conclusions and studies. Nevertheless, it is not usual the institution reply to any kind of forums, regardless of its aims, purposes or contents. Thus, we believe still many questions will be raised in a forum with so many experts and researchers, but we guard the right to remain silent.
As said, the institution is open to whoever wants to know or study the style in a serious and ethical way, according to our purposes. We do believe that even with the experience that great experts may have, having its own experiences about something, specially a style or school is the first minimum step to be able to evaluate it.
Shidoushi lives in Barcelona and is organizing the legal stuff to start his classes. Courses and seminars may be found from times to times.
Faithfully,
Thiago Finotti de Moraes
CNKB – Board of Directors
Mr. Finotti,
Thank you for replying. As you noted:
"...There is no way to attest that the style is definitively ancient, nor that the grand parents of Ogawa Sensei already practiced like that.
From that on, we, his students, deal with the responsability of passing forward what was transmitted from him. We are not filiated to any kind of organization, even because Ogawa Sensei did not like to show up and did not allow his students to appear frequently in every event around – and this feeling was absorbed by everyone active in the group."
The statement, I believe, says it all. No need for me, at least, for further questions. You can't prove it, one way or the other.
Wayne Muromoto
But the real kicker comes on page 6:
I know them. I`ve trained with them.
My first knowledge about Shidoshi Jordan Augusto was in 94 in a brazilian martial arts magazine in which he was presented as a master of Daito ryu. My father contacted the magazine so we could reach this, as far as we believed, only master of Daito ryu residing in Brazil. After four months we were able to contact his students who then explained that they actually trained an ancient japanese religion called "Bugei Art" that involved more than 18 physical disciplines and 36 spiritual ones.
Just to put into context, back in 94 there was no internet and very little trustworth bibliograph was avaiable in brazilian bookstores. I had some books(in english) that had such pearls of wisdom like "Jujutsu then became judo" or "samurai praticed karate"...and i was eighteen
After three years of correspondency and many invitations for Shidoshi to come to my city to teach, it was only after i left the Aikido organization that he accepted to come.
It was 1997 and i decided to do a Workshop on Kenjutsu on my own(talking about frogs on wells, in my ignorance i thought that my video based aikiken was kenjutsu...and the worst, most people agreed for the lack of references...) and he came with some students. He participated on the seminar and demonstrated "Daito ryu Aikijujutsu" and "Kaze no ryu Kenjutsu"(the no meaning, acording to him, the possessive particle, thus rendering the name "Tradition of the wind").
I had a very extremely completely lame Aikido so he looked amazing.
Two months later i went to Goiânia(his hometown) for a month to stay in his house for some practice. And after my return to my city i brought him to teach a workshop on "Jojutsu"("Gonnosuke`s method").
Althought i was very well treated and enjoyed tremendously the practice i deeply disliked the religious aspect(animism with guiding spirits who had very tendencious advices for me towards martial arts and personal life...).
About the technique
Jordan`s technique seems very much like a blend of good Yoshinkan and good Judo, trained without the emphasis on grabing the gi. His weapons are definetly Aikido type. He studies alot of videos thus he is able to increase his repertoire with kata he adds and them blends into his "tradition".
So, what`s wrong?
As i mentioned, at first he taught three diferent Koryu in his "Bugei Art"(as it was called back then): Daito ryu, Shindo Muso ryu and Kaze no ryu. He also explained how the term Bugei refered specifically to his school(if it is called Bugei, it is related to him and his school...).
As in 98 me and my father finally got internet and found KoryuBooks, Mugendo Budogu and Tozando, we were able to buy fantastic books and videos...and contact people from koryu budo.
And what a surprise it was to see how "diferent" Kenji Matsui`s Shindo Muso ryu was from Jordan`s...
When i mentioned this to him he simplely said that what he taught in the workshop was "Kaze no ryu Jojutsu"(not quite what he said on the video my father made of that seminar...). After extra six months he was explaining that actually it was Kaze no ryu Bugei, which included Aikijujutsu, Kumiuchi, Jojutsu, Kenjutsu, Sojutsu, Naginata jutsu, tanto jutsu, hojo jutsu, okinawan weapons(yes!)...and that it was a secret martial art of the Ainu people.
Yes, Ainu.
The ranks were also very unusual, starting with Kohai, seito(first level up to third as i recall), deshi, uchideshi and goes on(i really don`t remember it all, but i have it written down). The exam`s fees were also unusual in which they would cost from U$300(for the first levels) til U$1000...and for Brazil those prices were even higher than they sound for you folks on US...
Also, there was an unhealth atmosphere of formality...in the presence of Jordan students were expect to sit in seiza and remain in silence, avoid eye contact and treat him in the same manner one sees daimyo being treated in samurai movies. And i won`t go into the nasty details(and they exist).
From 97 to 99 Jordan was able to gain a large following and lots of money...but even though most of his students were originally friends of mine, all of them had cut contact with me and my father for no particular reason...and when i would stumble on them in a mall or such they would be extremely formal("greetings Renato san/sensei...i hope all is fine with you and your family").
In 2000 the bomb fell...i was on the beach and was greeted by two friends who had entered on the "Kaze no ryu Bugei".
Well, let`s say that ALL his students had left, some were suing him, and them they proceeded to tell me what the students were recquired to do...including the fact that it was forbidden to mantain contact with me and my father, at the cost of being expelt.
Present status.
As i said before, Jordan is very skilled and has an amazing charisma. He is also very quick into improving/fixing his art. And i inadvertly have helped him in doing so with a hot debate i had on the Orkut-based community "Kenjutsu - Kendo" were i listed all the incongruences of his "Koryu", among which was the name. Now he uses the name Ogawa ryu instead of Kazeno ryu(which he still uses, but with the reading "direction of the wind" instead of "Wind school") and has "fixed" all the most obvious absurds on his claim of being a legitm koryu(except the Ainu nonsense, but he will most likely do it, sooner or later) .
Conclusion
The empty hand techniques are good (better than most average Aikido & Judo), the weapons are so-so and the cultural aspect is confuse.
All in all it is very much like Saigo ha Daito ryu.
And not something i would recomend.
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Renato Costa de Alcântara