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AnonAikidoka
07-27-2007, 05:22 PM
Okay whilst this is not strictly about Aikido itself, I feel it may potentially have an impact on what happens at the dojo when I see the guy again in training and indeed at Aikido socials etc.

Bare with me, this is going to take some explaining.

So I met this guy in training and throughout about six months I got to know him, I assumed fairly well. We fell into, what I assumed to be, in a kind of friendship of sorts, even though he is old enough to be my father (in fact he has a daughter my age.) Anyhow we swapped numbers in case one of us could not make it to training so we could pass on apologies to Sensei or needed a lift etc. I gets a phone call from him tonight under the guise of a group of us are going to the beach so I can get some wood for work, want to come along and help out. I agreed and he came and picked me up.

There was no group but that did not concern me at the time because I thought I could trust him. So we went and looked for wood an none suitable and It started to rain so we took shelter to wait it out. (Yes my Innocence and lack of common sense knows no boundary's, I realize that now. I am really inexperienced in well life in general. ) Where he pushed me to the ground and started to tickle me. I told him to stop as it made me uncomfortable , and he did, instead he started kissing me. This freaked me out, I told him so and he apologized, only for him to do it again, told him again , he told me it was only a bit of fun. Trust me, not my idea of fun in the least. Told him that and this happened again only it was rough french kissing got forced into my mouth despite me turning away and covering my mouth with my hand. The position he put me and the fact he overpowered me kind of made it impossible to fight him off and naturally no one else was around. (Again yes I am an idiot!) The rain stopped and so we walked back to his car and being in the middle of nowhere I had no choice but to let him drive me home, where he asked me to forgive him and that was just him having a bit of fun.

Awkward is not even covering how I think things are going to be at the dojo next session we attend together. I think it is going to be inevitable that we have to pair up for at least one thing due to how the classes are structured.

So I guess what I want advice about is should I privately mentioned what has happened to my Sensei (Who I do trust implicitly to treat this sensitively and the dojo is the best one for me) and ask not to be paired with the male in question , or is it a case of keep quiet because theres nothing he can do since it happened away from the dojo. Can Sensei even intervene in this situation? Or was I just a nieve girl who should just chalk it up to experience and learn from this.

I have been left reeling and a bit shaken from this and not certain how I am going to react to any of the males in the class, unfortunately at times I am the only female in training in training and I obviously do not want to miss training as its something I enjoy.

Thanks for any advice you can offer in advance.

BC
07-30-2007, 12:37 PM
Call the police and report him.

Marc Abrams
07-30-2007, 12:55 PM
You are a victim of a sexual assault. It is common for the victim to blame her/him - self for having been in the situation. That man is a predator. You were probably not the first victim, and if you want to stop this pattern from finding another victim then I think that you should give some serious consideration to options to prevent another person from being a victim. Reporting him to the police is a very effective option. If you choose this option, I would recommend that you work with a counselor experienced in this area, because of the many ramification involved. There are usually rape hotlines available in most areas where you can talk privately about your experience and work with somebody on a course of action for you to take.

For your healing sake: STOP BLAMING YOURSELF YOU ARE A VICTIM.

Marc Abrams

Larry Cuvin
07-30-2007, 12:56 PM
What happened was a sexual assault. Report to the authorities and mention to sensei.

Marie Noelle Fequiere
07-30-2007, 01:32 PM
Believe me, Sensei needs to know. The guy is a danger for the school. Yes, it happened away from the school, but exchanging phone numbers, e mails and arranging to give one another a lift or helping each other in any way is common in a dojo. You met this guy in the dojo. He can ruin the school's reputation, and cause female students to leave the school.
Do not leave because of him. He has no right to ruin your life. Look at him straight in the eyes when you see him. He should be ashamed of himself.
And talk to Sensei.

Ron Tisdale
07-30-2007, 02:07 PM
Sexual assault. Repeated unwanted advances after being told to stop. No excuse on his part.

What really worries me is he planned this out to take advantage of your inexperience. Luckily (I use this word advisedly) he did not push it further...you were in a very bad spot. Not your fault...just how it happened.

Please inform your instructor.

Please consider informing authorities.

If you are under the age of legal consent, Please inform both of the above and your parents.

It sucks, but it really is up to you in this life to defend yourself, and protect your boundries. That is not correct...but it is true. What is even worse is that there are scum out there who will abuse your trust. Try to not let this kind of isolated situation arise, and perhaps consider role playing what you can do in such a situation. Not to the point of paranoia, but just to the point of being prepared.

I hope you stay safe, and live well.
Best,
Ron

James Davis
07-30-2007, 03:24 PM
All of the above posters rock, and you should listen to them.

If one of my students were attacked like this by another of my students, I would hope that they would tell me for the sake of the rest of my students.

After I got to know them well, quite a few female friends of mine told me that they had been assaulted in the past. I don't know why so many chose to confide in me, but it was really heart wrending to hear it. Hearing even one person tell me this was enough to be pissed off about, but when I kept hearing it over and over, well, you can probably imagine what the father, brother, and just plain crazy redneck in me started to think.:mad:

I pity the poor kid who dates my daughter...:straightf

He thinks that you're too embarassed to talk to your sensei.

He thinks that you're too scared to talk to the police.

He thinks that he's going to get away with this, and probably a bunch of other stuff he's done.

I hope you'll prove him wrong. God bless you.

Janet Rosen
07-30-2007, 03:26 PM
I agree with the advice you have already gotten
1. he is a predator who pre-selected you KNOWING that if you didn't cooperate at least you'd be unlikely to "make a fuss."
2. your instructor has a right to know and you have an obligation to report him.
Then I will go further and suggest that in addition to training in aikido you seek out a "model mugging" or rape prevention class, because from how you tell the story it seems you don't have the belief that it is ok to make a fuss...when in fact being rude and loud and making a fuss is exactly what you need to learn to do!
Having said this: it was NOT your fault. Many people, especially many young women, are raised to "be nice" and not offend people, and this man KNEW it, he read it in you but that is HIS fault.

Guilty Spark
07-30-2007, 03:41 PM
Just a point to note, and I appologize here if I sound insensitive- believe me thats not the case.

On a thought,
I just wanted to point out 2 days prior to this post a thread was started at bullshido
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57848
ressurecting a post from aikiweb http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/archiv...php/t-875.html which was back from 2001.

The bullshido post basically attempts to suggest Aikido as a MA draws a lot of pedophiles and sexual deviants.
So I do a search on Aikido instructors dating students, and I find this long thread. Apparantly many people have problems with their Aikido instructors dating and hazing sex with students, among other things...
Are aikido instructors just a bunch of perverts, criminals, pedophiles, cult leaders, etc destroying our communities?
The name of the origional poster from 2001 was "Anonanon".

Please don't take offence 'AnonAikidoka', I just felt this post 2 days after the ongoing one from bullshido was interesting.
Good luck with your situation.

SeiserL
07-30-2007, 05:54 PM
As a professional in the field, please listen to what people are telling.
You did nothing wrong, he did.
You are within your right to press charges.
You are within your right to talk with your Sensei, because sexual predators have no place in the safety of the training hall. He may be asked to leave with good and just cause.
You may want to talk with some one to deprocess or debrief your reaction to the unwanted advances.
Take a deep breath, bow in, stand tall, and train with everyone but him. You have the right not to train with him ever again.
If anyone in your dojo, including Sensei or this individual, have any questions please feel free to give them my contact information. I would consider it an honor.

Qatana
07-30-2007, 07:41 PM
Not only tell your sensei, tell every other woman who trains in your dojo
You have Nothing to be ashamed of.

Eric Webber
07-30-2007, 08:20 PM
Agree with all above, please call the authorities and report as soon as possible. As well, if you are under age please call your county Children and Youth Services agency as well as Child Line to report the incident. They will help conduct an investigation and hopefully help keep this dude under wrap.

ChrisHein
07-30-2007, 11:19 PM
First let me say, this guy is a bit off. He is not very sensitive, and could very well be malicious. But he could also just be completely stupid or momentaraly over run by emotion.

I would tell him personally in no uncertain terms that what he did was wrong. That you told him you were not interested and that he forced himself on you. I would also tell him that you no longer feel comfortable around him, and that you will not be doing anything with him again.

If after you talk to him, he tries to contact you in anyway, or he tries to interact with you, then you should tell your sensei that this is happening, and that you no longer wish to train with him. If anything beyond this happens I would get a restraining order. If anything further happens then you can take legal action.

It’s a bad situation you are in. However my personal philosophy is to handle things myself. Telling him what he did clearly, separate from the emotions of the situation should be a nice wake up call for him. If he goes beyond this then either he is truly malicious, or beyond reasoning. Getting a restraining order will notify others of your fear of this man, and make taking legal action easy and straight forward.

Michael Hackett
07-30-2007, 11:42 PM
Based on over thirty years in law enforcement, several of which were as a sexual assault investigator, I echo loudly the advice to call the local authorities. This was criminal behavior and will only escalate unless it is stopped. Report this character as quickly as you can and then report the incident to your sensei. He has a duty to your fellow students to protect them from harm as well. It is also very worthwhile to seek out help from your local rape crisis center. You may not need anything at all and can put it in a healthy perspective, but then again, having someone knowledgeable to talk it out with can be very healthy and helpful.

You gotta be scared to death - I don't blame you. Glad you're alright.

Marc Abrams
07-31-2007, 05:54 AM
Chris:

I respectfully STRONGLY disagree with your advice. I, like Dr. Seiser am a practicing psychologist, and have worked with other victims of crimes. This person is FAR beyond the point of needing to talk directly to that predator. That predator knew exactly what he was doing. His actions are usually called "grooming behaviors" setting a person up to be a victim.

This person needs to face the consequences of his actions at a far greater level than face-to-face talking. The victim also needs to be helped to process the trauma and learn to become empowered in a manner that is safe and personal-growth enhancing.

Marc Abrams

ChrisHein
07-31-2007, 08:48 AM
I often disagree with what "modern psychology" has to say about things. I believe the most powerful thing anyone can do is directly face that which threatens them.

Directly telling this creep what he has done, and why you will not be associating with him is the most "empowering" thing you can do. Calling the cops and hoping others will take care of things for you and make you feel better about the situations is, the opposite of empowerment.

It's scary no doubt, but going in head first will make you feel wonders better about yourself. Now the question of if she's in any real danger, yes, quite possibly. So if the jerk doesn't stop, I would notify others (restraining order), and arm myself.

What that person did was wrong and violent. This act of violence was perpetrated directly on her. Getting others involved doesn't give her more power, but takes away from her self image. Puts a little note in her mind that says “if someone's not there to help us, we’re not going to be able to take care of it”.

This is also a good time to start learning about why people carry pepper spray, stun guns, and learn to fight for real.

Marc Abrams
07-31-2007, 09:13 AM
Chris:

By "modern psychology" you are referring to what? How many victims of crimes have you actually work with in helping them to empower themselves? You speak from a place of too little experience and knowledge, which can be dangerous.

I do not necessarily disagree with your idea of how people can empower themselves. In this type of situation, your advice might be well-intended, but is simply ill-guided and inappropriate. You might want to re-read this person's initial post and try and gain some real awareness as to where this person is at.

Let's review some of the previous posters. So far, we have two psychologists' posts, and post from a law enforcement officer with direct experience in these types of matters. They, and it seems, everybody else make recommendations that are quite different from yours. Do you think that maybe you want to reconsider your proposal? Might you want to consider that people with real experience in helping people in similar positions have a better sense of what might help?

Marc Abrams

Michael Hackett
07-31-2007, 09:35 AM
She can gain the empowerment Chris suggests when she gives her victim impact statement in court during sentencing.

Jerry Miller
07-31-2007, 09:58 AM
This person is behaving like a predator and trying to see how far he can push his boundaries. If you were the sensei or an instructor and a student came to you with this what would you do? What are the options that you would consider? How would you make the person feel safe in the dojo? This person lost a great deal of innocence and may not trust anyone because of this.

Ron Tisdale
07-31-2007, 10:07 AM
If I were the chief instructor he would be out.

Period.

With the same advice I gave above.

Best,
Ron

Janet Rosen
07-31-2007, 11:37 AM
Chris, while I understand the sentiment behind your posts, the reason I posted as I did was that I believe the very reason she was targeted is that she does not inherently have the capability to stand up on her own...or she would have to start with...which is why I suggested supplementing aikido w/ courses that more directly teach assertive behavior, including "simply" practicing saying NO and meaning it.
Telling a person to be strong doesn't teach her how if she's never modeled the behavior before.

Michael Hackett
07-31-2007, 11:42 AM
I agree with Ron - he'd be out the door. By her description of the events, this guy is a sexual predator and they simply don't change their behavior. I suppose there are cases where extensive therapy has controlled the predatory behavior, but I personally have never seen one. From my experience, they simply escalate until something intervenes and stops them. The literature abounds that the conduct increases in frequency and levels of violence. Most of the FBI studies done by the Behavioral Science Unit have shown most sexual serial killers have travelled across a continuum from bedwetting and animal cruelty to conduct like AnonAkidoka described to rape and then murder. Obviously that may not be the case here, but this guy needs to be stopped immediately so we never have to find out for sure.

I believe that a sensei has an obligation to protect his students from dangerous people in and from the dojo, thus leading me to my opinion that this guy should be dismissed.

Marc Abrams
07-31-2007, 11:58 AM
Reporting the incident to the police and pressing charges would result in that predator being arrested. If that person would be allowed out on bail, a condition of that bail would be that he would not be allowed anywhere near the victim. The incident would be published in the media. The sensei would find out and should then ban the person from the dojo and arrange to have the person expelled from any larger organization. I think that simply reporting the incident to the sensei is not enough "justice" for this predator. This was not simply a case of a mistaken intention. If that were so, then the predator would have stopped as soon as the message that his advances were not welcomed were given to him. This predator continued on, indicating to me at least, that this was not an innocent, one-time accident. This predator needs to face his actions in a legal arena.

If the predator was found guilty in a court of law, he would be put in a place where inmates hold a special place in their hearts for sexual predators.

Marc Abrams

Kevin Wilbanks
07-31-2007, 01:44 PM
Reporting the incident to the police and pressing charges would result in that predator being arrested. If that person would be allowed out on bail, a condition of that bail would be that he would not be allowed anywhere near the victim. The incident would be published in the media. The sensei would find out and should then ban the person from the dojo and arrange to have the person expelled from any larger organization. I think that simply reporting the incident to the sensei is not enough "justice" for this predator. This was not simply a case of a mistaken intention. If that were so, then the predator would have stopped as soon as the message that his advances were not welcomed were given to him. This predator continued on, indicating to me at least, that this was not an innocent, one-time accident. This predator needs to face his actions in a legal arena.

If the predator was found guilty in a court of law, he would be put in a place where inmates hold a special place in their hearts for sexual predators.

Marc Abrams

I think you are getting a little carried away. It sounds highly doubtful to me, based on the description of the incident, that reporting it to the police is going to result in all this. First of all, where is the evidence? It will just be one party's word vs. another. Second, is this really the kind of sexual assault that gets someone thrown in maximum security prison? A forced "french kiss" on a consensual outing, followed by an apology and a ride home?

I think it is irresponsible to tell her to expect such consequences from reporting it to the police. I doubt that he would even be arrested. Likely the adverse consequences for the guy will max out at court hassles and expenses, a police record, and possibly a small penalty of some kind. Minimum would be that the case doesn't have enough merit to pursue and a report is filed. Still, I think it is a good idea to notify the police and try to press charges, as a duty to future potential victims. Even just a report on record will make it harder for him to do it again.

***

I also think Chris H's advice is not so bad, just impractical. Doing what he says would probably be the best thing anyone could do for themselves in a situation like this in the long run. However, as someone else pointed out, the whole reason this victim was probably singled out is because of the fact that she is not the kind of person who is capable of it.

James Davis
07-31-2007, 03:25 PM
I think you are getting a little carried away. It sounds highly doubtful to me, based on the description of the incident, that reporting it to the police is going to result in all this. First of all, where is the evidence? It will just be one party's word vs. another. Second, is this really the kind of sexual assault that gets someone thrown in maximum security prison? A forced "french kiss" on a consensual outing, followed by an apology and a ride home?

I think it is irresponsible to tell her to expect such consequences from reporting it to the police. I doubt that he would even be arrested. Likely the adverse consequences for the guy will max out at court hassles and expenses, a police record, and possibly a small penalty of some kind. Minimum would be that the case doesn't have enough merit to pursue and a report is filed. Still, I think it is a good idea to notify the police and try to press charges, as a duty to future potential victims. Even just a report on record will make it harder for him to do it again.



What happens to him is dependent on what her age is and whether he's been picked up for this type of thing before.

Marc Abrams
07-31-2007, 03:50 PM
From her description, a number of charges could brought against him. As James mentioned, past history of offenses, age difference, and other factors would certainly weigh in on how a prosecutor might try and offer a plea bargain to him. I would respectfully disagree that a police department in this day and age would not take this description serious enough to bring him in for questioning. I would be equally surprised if he was not charged with some offenses.

Kevin, you do not have to be put into a maximum security prison for somebody to take umbrage with sexual predators. In inmate communities, this type of individual is low on the totem pole (not a good place to be). Even if he the worst consequence he has is a "court mess", his name will be "Mud" in the community, let alone the consequences of having to deal with a spouse. Any kind of criminal record can seriously impact upon employment, living locations, ability to secure credit, etc..

For me, bottom line is if you play the game be willing to live by the rules. His "game" was criminal in intent and actions and he should be now face the consequences of his actions. This woman will be dealing with the consequences of this event for quite some time, so should he.

Marc Abrams

aikidoc
07-31-2007, 05:51 PM
By the writing style, its sounds to me as if the anonymous poster is not a child. However, the person pushing this issue definitely does not understand sexual boundaries and the word no. His behavior could be dangerous and, although as pointed out it is one person's word against another, it should be reported. It may not be an isolated incident. She should definitely report this to the dojo cho and if appropriate action is not taken she should leave the dojo.

AnonAikidoka
07-31-2007, 05:58 PM
For the sake of clarity I am above the age of consent in my country (I am 23 and in England) and as far as I am aware he has never been in any kind of trouble with the law before and has never tried anything like this with other females before.

I have emailed my Sensei more or less what I put in the original post and we are going to have a chat about what happened and in his words explore some avenues to what would be the best action to take. I get the impression though that he was not impressed by the guys actions and concerned about me.

As for reporting it to the authorities, yes I am aware that this would be a step to take and may take this action. I think I will wait and see what Sensei has to say first. It would be a case of my word against his and whilst it would be on record and great for others if he ever pulled a stunt like this again, well I am not certain if its something I am going to choose to do yet.

The seeking out support and help though is something I am looking into.

Thanks for all your advice and I if people want me to I will continue to update this thread with what happens.

aikidoc
07-31-2007, 07:17 PM
I think many of us would like to hear the results of this issue. It may give us insight into dealing with it ourselves in the future should we encounter a similar situation. Please do keep us up to date.

Michael Hackett
07-31-2007, 07:27 PM
AnonAikidoka,

Only you can make that decision and whatever you choose to do, it will be the right decision. I, for one, offer my respect and support for whichever decision you make in this matter. While a large number of us have advised you to make a formal complaint to the authorities, it is only advice and you mustl do what's best for you and yours in the circumstances. Best wishes, and please let us know how you are doing and the outcome.

Janet Rosen
07-31-2007, 07:33 PM
Yes, please keep us updated.

Michael Varin
08-01-2007, 04:45 AM
I think you are getting a little carried away. It sounds highly doubtful to me, based on the description of the incident, that reporting it to the police is going to result in all this. First of all, where is the evidence? It will just be one party's word vs. another. Second, is this really the kind of sexual assault that gets someone thrown in maximum security prison? A forced "french kiss" on a consensual outing, followed by an apology and a ride home?

Kevin,

Thanks for injecting some sanity into this thread.

Marc,

Using the word "predator" seven times in a relatively small post! Have we been watching too much MSNBC lately?

And your calls for prison-style justice are, quite frankly, disturbing. This is fear based and in the long run improves nothing. Don't forget the lesson of aikido. Hint: it has something to do with Love.

I want to be clear. I have no respect for an individual who conducts himself like the man who made unwelcome advances on AnonAikidoka.

We don't know what his intentions were, we don't know his perception of their relationship, and we don't know how bad he felt about it afterwards. Should he have stopped when she said to? Of course. Could this situation gotten worse? Yes, but it didn't.

What we do know is that he wanted some sort of physical relationship with this woman and failed to make her aware of this until it was too late, he obviously has no skills in dealing with women, and he used deceit to gain her company (red flag for loser, just like expensive first dates).

He is weak. He lowered himself with his actions that day, and I guarantee that he knows it. I'm not sure this makes him a "predator" or that his life should be ruined or that he should be anally raped and beaten and possibly killed. AnonAikidoka should definitely talk to her sensei, which it sounds like she already has. Hopefully, the three of them can get together and clear things up. Our "predator" will have to make amends, which may include permanently leaving the dojo. Sometimes it is necessary to involve the criminal justice system; somehow, I don't think this is the time.

One last thing, AnonAikidoka,

Don't let this reflect badly on all men. The sooner you learn to recognize the ones that you shouldn't give the time of day to, the sooner you will find a confident, spiritual guy with integrity who knows how to laugh at life.

Mary Eastland
08-01-2007, 05:24 AM
A book you might be interested in reading is "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin De Becker. He gives a lot of attention to signals our inner voice gives us to let us know a situation is dangerous.
Mary

SeiserL
08-01-2007, 05:28 AM
The seeking out support and help though is something I am looking into. Thanks for all your advice and I if people want me to I will continue to update this thread with what happens.
Osu,
Compliments for having the courage to talk to us.
Compliments for having the courage to talk to Sensei.
Compliments to Sensei's initial response.
Compliments to the Web members for stepping up, offering a voice, and a show of support and outrage.
Please, please, keep us posted on how "you" are doing.
Rei, Domo.

Marc Abrams
08-01-2007, 07:17 AM
Michael:

I do not watch MSNBC. I have spent over twenty years working in the psychology world. Thirty-four years in the martial arts and fighting sports world. I speak from life experiences, which you apparently do not have enough of (or live in some innocent fantasy world).

This man is a predator whether you want to accept that description or not. His intentions were obvious, devious, and malicious. His "weakness" was an abuse of power and a sexual assault. Believe your "innocent" description of him if you would like. You have the right to live in, and believe in the world that you want to believe in. My world is not fear-based, nor innocent, but based on a realistic assessment of what is happening around me. That allows me to be aware and not live in fear, but live peacefully.

"Prison justice" is simply a reality of what happens in that world. As to real justice, I believe that is simply an abstract construct. "Justice" does not erase the past, nor can it heal the wounds. If this was your daughter, what "justice" would you want done?

O'Sensei talked about using Aikido to bring peace to the world. That is akin to the sword that gives life. Sometimes that sword has to rid bad in order to allow peace to prevail.

AnonAikidoka:

Your courage is your path to healing and moving forward in your life. You have many people's support and caring in the Aikido world.

Marc Abrams

SeiserL
08-01-2007, 08:43 AM
IMHO, empowerment also comes from having the courage to reach out, to find out you are not alone, to ask for help, and to realize that not everything is your fault.

IOW, intentional isolating sequential indirect seduction (grooming or setting up), obviously practiced, with escalating acting out despite request to stop is on the spectrum of predatory processing. Along with the selection of a more innocent (not idiot) victim target.

She is already empowered by the stance she now takes.

Kevin Wilbanks
08-01-2007, 10:38 AM
The more you guys talk, the more hysterical this rhetoric sounds. As far as invoking psychological credentials and using the jargon, maybe that's part of the problem. Who doesn't engage in "intentional isolating" with someone they want to make out with? And "sequential indirect seduction" sounds like it could easily describe a whole array of sexual encounters in which both parties come away smiling. I could probably get out a copy of the DSM and make your Aunt Mabel buying a Hallmark card for you sound just as scary.

While it is certainly possible that the fellow is a "devious, malicious" rapist, or on his way to becoming one, and deserving of being tortured by fellow inmates in prison, I don't see how anyone not in the grip of some kind of ideological zealotry could go that far based solely on the description of the incident provided.

It is also possible that he cluelessly thought there was all kinds of chemistry between them and the whole thing was a date. If so, he definitely made a bad mistake when not stopping his advances immediately when asked, but that's a far cry from being some kind of evil predator who planned a sexual assault in advance.

We are working with just a few sentences of description of an event from only one party's perspective here. Maybe we should hold off on the lynch mob.

Ron Tisdale
08-01-2007, 11:02 AM
No need for a lynch mob. I hear people suggesting that this is handled by law enforcement. Not a lynch mob. I call hyperbole, again.

The kicker for me was the fact that he invited her on a group outing, then when she got there, there was no group, and no excuse for it's sudden absence.

By the way...that should have been the first clue the guy was up to no good...

Best,
Ron

Marie Noelle Fequiere
08-01-2007, 11:11 AM
Kevin, I don't think that you have read the victim's description of how it all happened. For your information, he LIED to get her to go out with him. They were supposed to join a group, and there was no group. The victim got in te guy's car totally unaware that she was going to find herself ALONE with him.
Why is it so difficult to say: "I would like to see you"? Thousands of millions of guys (and women also) say it everyday all over the planet. The other party thus understands that the meeting is likely to have a romantic tone.
People who lie are those who have no respect for their victim and have made the decision to abuse them to a certain degree.
"AnonAikidoka" was abused. Yes, it could have been worst. But a certain amount of abuse did take place.
I agree that having this particular men be sexually assaulted in jail may sound extreme. But he does deserve to go to jail. This is a men who have no respect for other people's feelings, and, since his upbringing failed to teach him that during his childhood, it is now time for the justice system to do the job his parents failed to do.

Yo-Jimbo
08-01-2007, 12:09 PM
Please at least get a report on file with the authorities (whether charges are pressed or not).

Better that his actions have consequences now, perhaps disproportionate to the justifications he had in his own mind, then to possibly surrender another woman to actions disproportionate to her justifications of those consequences in her mind.

Let me say it more clearly.

Men can't be allowed to think it is ever alright to treat women that way.

For his benefit, he must know in the worst way that his actions were on the wrong path. Perhaps he will change his direction or it will slow his progress.

For the safety of other women, something must be done. If there is a next time, it won't be her word against his if you say something now.

Maybe this is the first/only/worst he has ever treated a woman this way (I hope so); still, I don't care.

If every man got one "mulligan" in his life where this kind of behavior were allowed to pass, then almost every woman would be treated in this way at least once in her life.

We already live in a world where this is practically the case.

I want us to live in a better world than that.

I'm glad you told us.
I'm glad you told your sensei.
I'm glad you weren't hurt worse.

Please continue to contribute to the solution.

I wish you the best in however you deal with it.

Marc Abrams
08-01-2007, 12:33 PM
Kevin:

1) You posts are different from the other posters.

2) You mentioned "modern psychology." I asked you what you meant, you gave no answer.

3) You talk about "ideological zealotry" without any mention of any kind as to what you are referring to. What are you referring to?

4) Some of us have listed the experience base from which we draw upon to reach our conclusions. Would you care to include your experience base?

5) I don't know about your world, but in my world:
A) An intentional lie is not innocent or clueless.
B) When somebody says "NO", it means "NO". Let us assume that the person did not fully understand the meaning of "no" the first time, but what about the second and third time. In my world, that is an abuse of power. In this instance, it was done in a sexual context.

We are working with what that woman told us. Unless that man can present some evidence that:
1) There really was a group trip.
2) He could not understand the meaning of "No."
3) He thought "No" meant yes.

then we will continue to work with the default that what she told us was truthful.

Nobody wants to form a lynch mob here. If charges are filed, he is given every opportunity under the law to clear his name if the charges are false and absolutely unsubstantiated. If he did do what he said, and was found guilty in a court of law, then he should pay any consequences imposed upon him by a court of law.

Frankly speaking Kevin, you seem to be his apologist and defender. You seem to like to attack those who may be offering opinions based upon their life experiences in which they have directly dealt with people in similar circumstances.

Marc Abrams

dragonteeth
08-01-2007, 08:22 PM
To take a slightly different tack....

Fast forward five to ten years down the road when this guy is now of dan rank. We now have a guy with questionable morals at best, or a potential predator at worst, in a position of authority and influence with the increased confidence that entails. We've all seen how some young women can quickly find themselves in full blown starry-eyed hero-worship mode, and he would be in the perfect position to take advantage of them. (And yes, I can say this because I was once a young woman...granted Seti III was still on Egypt's throne back then, but I still remember what it was like to be "impressionable.") So by bringing this to the attention of both the authorities and her Sensei, this fellow will hopefully either recognize the error of his actions and correct his thinking, or find himself removed from the path that leads to the potential defilement of both dojo and deshi. Anon would then not only be defending her own rights, but possibly the safety of an unknown number young ladies down the road.

Qatana
08-01-2007, 09:23 PM
Oh you don't have to be young to be impressionable!

Regardless of the idealogical argument (you wouldn't Believe the one i"m in on an unrelated site), AnonA, you did good.
Keep us posted.

ChrisHein
08-01-2007, 11:13 PM
Marc Abrams

Shame on you sir. I have not read this thread for a few days but frankly I am disturbed by your posts.


If the predator was found guilty in a court of law, he would be put in a place where inmates hold a special place in their hearts for sexual predators.

Marc Abrams

That is disgusting. I wouldn't wish that on any human being ever. You should be ashamed of yourself for fantasizing about such a thing.

Secondly, you don't know anything about me and what I've been through in my life. Just like you don't know anything about this situation. How dare you suggest she take such strong measures when another persons whole life is at stake.



Kevin, you do not have to be put into a maximum security prison for somebody to take umbrage with sexual predators. In inmate communities, this type of individual is low on the totem pole (not a good place to be). Even if he the worst consequence he has is a "court mess", his name will be "Mud" in the community, let alone the consequences of having to deal with a spouse. Any kind of criminal record can seriously impact upon employment, living locations, ability to secure credit, etc..

Marc Abrams

This is correct, all of these things can happen to someone, so don't you think you should be certain of their crimes before you convict them? You are really out of touch with reality here. You don't know the whole story, she has only told you her side. It sounds bad, I agree. It should be handled directly and with great concern but the way you are talking is almost inhuman. If a dog bites me, I don't bite it back, because I'm a human, not a dog.

Kevin Wilbanks
08-01-2007, 11:47 PM
Well, the way I see people behaving on this thread reminds me of a lynch mob. I don't think I'm too far off. Look at how freaked out you are getting about what I consider a little skepticism and common sense, and look at the extremity of the rhetoric. The ideological zealotry I'm talking about is something in the politically correct victimology range. I'm sorry but this incident just doesn't necessarily sound that bad to me. It's not good, and the guy needs to incur some consequences, but throwing around words like "predator", "devious", "malicious", etc... and gleefully implying the ruination of this guys life and his torture in prison sounds like the product of some kind of indoctrination or group hysteria to me.... and that's not hyperbole.

Now, on to some of the misrepresentations and fallacies.

First, if you'll go back and reread, I too suggested reporting it to the police. I don't know anything about UK law, but I suspect in most of the US, unless he has priors, that's all it would amount to: filing a report, not perp walks or prison sentences.

Next, he may have "lied" about other people coming along, or there may be other explanations. The other people could have cancelled and he didn't see any reason to notify her. Maybe she said something that he misconstrued as flirtatious after he made the initial plan and he thought it would be a welcome surprise. I don't know, and no one else does either based on reading a few sentences from one person's point of view. Sheesh. No wonder people are tried and convicted in public opinion so often based on five-sentence AP news blurbs.

Last, the question of credentials. Who cares? Arguments from authority are inherently invalid. It is perfectly possible to be an authority on a subject and still be wrong about any particular point involving it. If you have to invoke the weight of your supposed authority to back your point, it's a sure sign your argument can't stand on it's own. In this case, it isn't even clear that psychological credentials are the relevant field in which to be an authority, as the dispute also involves legalities and general social attitudes and behaviors.

Finally, just so we're clear, taking the description at face value, if I were Anon, I would a) confront the guy. If I was not completely satisfied with his response, I would b) tell him I am filing a report with the police, then do it. If he said or did anything implying further threat after that, I would c) make it clear to him that if I get so much as a headache that can be even obliquely attributable to him, I am coming after him, being careful to avoid anything obvious enough to incur verbal assault charges, of course. YMMV.

G DiPierro
08-02-2007, 01:49 AM
I tend to agree with Kevin. From the description, there is very little evidence upon which to prosecute, and from what I have read in the UK the CPS refuses to prosecute cases with a lot more evidence than this. Even if the man had not stopped but actually raped her, this type of thing is far from a guaranteed conviction given that she consensually went with him alone to the beach and then let him take her home. It would come down to his word against hers, who seems more convincing to the jury, and who has the better lawyer.

I would say that she is lucky that things ended the way they did. Sexual abuse is rampant in modern society and a woman needs to be very careful when choosing to be alone with a man. It's usually safe to assume that any man who wants to get a woman alone is sexually interested in her and, given that most men are stronger than most women, that he could try to force the matter if she declines. Sure, you can report it to the police after the fact but sexual abuse prosecutions are always hard on the victim, and even if they are successful they don't undo what was done. Better to learn how to prevent these things from happening in the first place.

The guy has certainly has some issues but so do a lot of people, and since he's not posting on this forum there's not much anyone here can do to help him (and what he needs most is help, not retribution). Frankly I often see a kind of vigilante mentality on this forum when people post about how they believe they have been wronged. Everyone assumes that the one side of the story they have heard is the whole truth and nothing but the truth and then jumps on board to condemn the other party to eternal damnation, prison rape, etc. I can think of several threads where I have seen this kind of behavior. Reality is almost always much more nuanced than one person makes it out to be, and while it might be gratifying to your ego to have your friends all say that you are perfect and flawless and all of your problems are someone else's fault, it doesn't help you learn anything or grow much as a person.

Mary Eastland
08-02-2007, 05:42 AM
"I would say that she is lucky that things ended the way they did. Sexual abuse is rampant in modern society and a woman needs to be very careful when choosing to be alone with a man. It's usually safe to assume that any man who wants to get a woman alone is sexually interested in her and, given that most men are stronger than most women, that he could try to force the matter if she declines. ."

I disagree about Anon being lucky......Anon defended herself. She repeatedly said No....she was successful in not getting hurt worse.
Now she is telling about the attack. Anon is seeking support so she can process this event.

I think you are in for a surprise if you think in every case a man can force the issue if a woman declines.

The guy has certainly has some issues but so do a lot of people, QUOTE]

He certainly has issues and seems dangerous to me.

It seems like some guys are very defensive about this subject...maybe instead of defending your stance you could ask yourself why you are so upset about it...surely you would not treat a women that way? Maybe you are just defending Men in general.

Mary

SeiserL
08-02-2007, 06:52 AM
This discussion thread is a great example of the Karpman Drama Triangle (offender, victim, rescuer). The rescuer rescues by attacking the offender, thus making the old offender the new victim. The new rescuers enter to rescue the new victim (the old offender) by attacking the original rescuers (now seen as offenders). Should have seen that coming. Thanks for the reminder.

All jargen and credential aside, IMHO (and I have a right to it without being shamed) he did wrong (by description) and she did good (by description).

Haowen Chan
08-02-2007, 07:09 AM
I admire your courage and fortitude. It is a very difficult situation to face and you are doing great.

I would support a decision for making a police report against this man. Regardless of the prosecutorial outcome it would be an act of empowerment for you and would improve the security of your community.

G DiPierro
08-02-2007, 07:44 AM
All jargen and credential aside, IMHO (and I have a right to it without being shamed) he did wrong (by description) and she did good (by description).Last post deleted. Somehow I misread your post and thought you were saying something else closer to what Mary was saying. I don't think anybody is saying that the man didn't do wrong, but I would question whether she really did that good, even just based on her own description. She knew this man for 6 months and did not realize that he was interested in her (despite several clues even in what she posted) or that he was the type of person who would not respect her wishes (despite the one major clue that he used a deceptive pretext to get her alone).

In today's society, I don't think that it is good enough to miss these signs and allow oneself to be put in a vulnerable situation with such a person. I say she is lucky it didn't go father than it did. What if he hadn't stopped? How is going to the police after the fact going to help her? Often that ends up being more pain for the victim as she feels victimized again by the criminal justice system. Perhaps it was a lesson learned the hard way but at least it wasn't as costly as it could have been.

Chuck Clark
08-02-2007, 07:48 AM
With all sympathy and respect to AnonAikidoka, this is the internet... some of you may remember a few years ago when, on this very discussion board, a person complained about seriously abusive situations going on in the dojo environment. As things developed many people were engaged emotionally and even officially involved in looking into taking action to solve the problems. And... then we found out that the person was lying about the situation all along just to engage others in drama.

I'm not saying this is happening in this current thread. Just be aware that this sort of thing happens on the internet often.

If this is real, I support the good basic advice that many have given.

Marie Noelle Fequiere
08-02-2007, 11:19 AM
Last post deleted. Somehow I misread your post and thought you were saying something else closer to what Mary was saying. I don't think anybody is saying that the man didn't do wrong, but I would question whether she really did that good, even just based on her own description. She knew this man for 6 months and did not realize that he was interested in her (despite several clues even in what she posted) or that he was the type of person who would not respect her wishes (despite the one major clue that he used a deceptive pretext to get her alone).

In today's society, I don't think that it is good enough to miss these signs and allow oneself to be put in a vulnerable situation with such a person. I say she is lucky it didn't go father than it did. What if he hadn't stopped? How is going to the police after the fact going to help her? Often that ends up being more pain for the victim as she feels victimized again by the criminal justice system. Perhaps it was a lesson learned the hard way but at least it wasn't as costly as it could have been.

A victim's lack of experience, or even her mistakes, cannot be an excuse for the perpetrator. Even if a woman steps out on the street completely naked, this will not be an excuse for anyone to assault her.
WE ARE NOT ANIMALS!
Now, as I said in a previous post, it is a normal thing in my dojo to exchange phone numbers or e mail addresses, in order to help each other occasionally, and also just for the fun of exchanging jokes.
Now, if that one guy had though of this woman as a human being, worthy of respect, and not just an object placed there for his pleasure, he would, like I also previously said: "I would like to see you".
Than she would have had the freedom to say either: "Yes, I would love that", or "Thanks, but no thanks". This freedom was taken from her.
And when he found himself alone with her, he could have said: "I really like you, can I kiss you?" And she would have had the freedom to say either: "Yes, I would love that", or "Thanks, but no thanks". Again, this freedom was taken from her.
I seriously believe that this guy's behavior is clamoring his extreme selfishness, and his contempt for others, especially women. He is a danger for society, and he needs to be put away.

Kevin Wilbanks
08-02-2007, 12:51 PM
A victim's lack of experience, or even her mistakes, cannot be an excuse for the perpetrator. Even if a woman steps out on the street completely naked, this will not be an excuse for anyone to assault her.
WE ARE NOT ANIMALS!


Now the shrill propaganda is hitting full boil. Read more carefully. He did not say anything about excusing or justifying the actions of anyone committing sexual assault. He was talking about what victims or potential victims of such assaults might do to protect themselves. You have really gotta wonder what is up with politics that won't allow someone to give out sensible self-defense advice to individuals without getting themselves screamed at for being pro-rapist. Am I correct in concluding, then, that your advice to an individual like Anon is to walk around naked?

Marie Noelle Fequiere
08-02-2007, 01:31 PM
Now the shrill propaganda is hitting full boil. Read more carefully. He did not say anything about excusing or justifying the actions of anyone committing sexual assault. He was talking about what victims or potential victims of such assaults might do to protect themselves. You have really gotta wonder what is up with politics that won't allow someone to give out sensible self-defense advice to individuals without getting themselves screamed at for being pro-rapist. Am I correct in concluding, then, that your advice to an individual like Anon is to walk around naked?

When use capital letters for the sentence: WE ARE NOT ANIMALS, I was trying to emphasize it, and I did not believe that the previous poster could hear me. I am sorry that he or anyone else interpreted it like that.
Now, I would not advise anyone to walk around naked. I will reasonably land them to jail. But if somebody should suffer from enough lack of control to attack them, they would deserve to spend their own time in jail for the aggression they would have perpetrated.

SeiserL
08-02-2007, 03:09 PM
In today's society, I don't think that it is good enough to miss these signs and allow oneself to be put in a vulnerable situation with such a person.
Should I remember that philosophy the next time I train with the white-belts? IMHO, innocence or ignorance is not permission at any age in any context. But hey, that's just me, sorta old school.

SeiserL
08-02-2007, 03:14 PM
With all sympathy and respect to AnonAikidoka, this is the internet... some of you may remember a few years ago when, on this very discussion board, a person complained about seriously abusive situations going on in the dojo environment. As things developed many people were engaged emotionally and even officially involved in looking into taking action to solve the problems. And... then we found out that the person was lying about the situation all along just to engage others in drama.
Osu Sensei,
Point well taken.
Yet, I would just rather error on the side of believing the victim and being wrong, than to not believe them and being wrong. Its a conscience thing.
But hey, as I've said, I am rather old school (and know you are too).
Rei, Domo.

Michael Hackett
08-02-2007, 05:31 PM
Old school/new school, it doesn't matter much in this situation. The original writer described an event that was an assault in most places and asked for advice as to how she should handle it. I think most people gave her decent and credible advice and took her at face value. No one here was capable of acting on the situation directly, or even calling for the villagers to fire up their torches.

Based on her assertions of what happened, my original opinion remains the same and I would leave it in the hands of the authorities to sort out. I would also leave it in the hands of the court to assess guilt or innocence. Punishment, if appropriate, would be in the context of community standards and the law. I continue to believe that someone victimized as described would benefit from counseling as well.

Even if you assume that AnonAikidoka is a complete fraud (and I don't - there is simply a ring of truth to her story to me), then the writer has done our community a service and brought a subject into light that might benefit someone else at another time. I don't see that as a rush to judgement - but as Dennis Miller puts it, "I could be wrong."

AnonAikidoka
08-02-2007, 05:31 PM
Woah folks I did not mean for this to develop into a war of words here! Whilst I respect that I put myself in a position to be critasised by asking for advice I did not want my OP to cause a fraction between posters. Isn't there something called peace love and harmony that Aikido is based on? I may be reading posts differently from how they where intended but things appear to me to be getting personal and I think that is not a positive thing, surely people should be able to state opinions they feel are right without verbal sparing as it where...

To answer a few points. Yes I should have realized something was not right with the situation before I let it advance that far but the power of hindsight is a wonderful thing.Have I learned something from this experience, yes!?! No he had not made any indication that he was interested in taking things to a romantic level and I certainly did not say anything to indicate that I wanted things to progress to that stage either, (I had made a lot of assumptions which I admit I was wrong to do, including that he knew about my *ahem* Alternative lifestyle as it where, chatting with others in the club it appears that it was somewhat well known!)

Mary I will definitely be looking that book up, it sounds like it would be useful for me to read.

Anyhow just to briefly update you all on what is going on but without giving too much away at Sensei's request.

We have discussed the situation and have come up with a plan that pleases everyone except possibly the guy in question . Basically the guy involved and me will not be working together and the people whom need to know have been informed of this. He will be informed of that fact if he decides that coming back is a good idea. Going back into our dojo environment will result in his life been made uncomfortable.

Somehow we do not this guy will be coming back from his own choice.

As for pressing charges etc well as people have pointed out it is very unlikely that charges will be made against him. Yes it should be put on file somewhere and I should officially report this to the authorities, however at this moment in time I do not feel like I am able to for well reasons I do not want to go into.This incodent has brought up stuff from my past that I thought I had delt with and haven't and at this moment in time I feel it would be best to concentrate on dealing with that baggage and to use a cliche heal myself than having to deal with outside factors. This is not a decision that was lightly made, having discussed it with people who know me and and that I trust it is the best one for me. I imagine that this may get a negative response from forum users and maybe this is rightly so but as stated it was not took lightly and it was with considerable thought.
Also tonight I found out info, again that I do not wish to share, that made it clear that he does need help and should he request it then the club will try and give him that. As for getting help for myself I am in the process of doing just that. Myself and my Sensei had a lengthy chat traveling to and from class tonight about this and that has given me something I feel I can build on with professional support.

Thank you to everyone whom has offered their opinion and support on this matter, it has been truly appreciated.

Michael Hackett
08-02-2007, 05:47 PM
AnonAikidoka,

Do whatever is best for you! You asked for advice and you received it. Only you know your full circumstances and know the best course of action for you. I respect your decision and hope that you can find a good way to get through all this. Best wishes.

G DiPierro
08-02-2007, 07:38 PM
In today's society, I don't think that it is good enough to miss these signs and allow oneself to be put in a vulnerable situation with such a person.Should I remember that philosophy the next time I train with the white-belts? IMHO, innocence or ignorance is not permission at any age in any context. But hey, that's just me, sorta old school.Are you saying that you believe you are putting yourself in a vulnerable situation when you train with white-belts? If so then I cannot imagine what you have been doing training in aikido for so long. And I never said anything about permission, nor did anyone else that I can recall.

SeiserL
08-03-2007, 05:29 AM
Are you saying that you believe you are putting yourself in a vulnerable situation when you train with white-belts? If so then I cannot imagine what you have been doing training in aikido for so long.
Point taken. Actually it would be the white-belts who are far too vulnerable. I, as Sempai and a somewhat decent human being, need to respect and honor that, and keep them safe even if I can and could exploit the situation. (and it is not my Aikido they would have to worry about). Its not personal, I just know what I believe an tend to take a strong stance.

I was once told I can never think about what I have never thought about. Meaning, my world view doesn't include that information. Its an ignorance and innocence thing. I no longer am ignorant or innocent, as you can tell by my paranoid projective post, and do not believe it is always a safe world, that people won't take advantage of others, or that everyone will step up and do the right thing.

As I said, for me its an old school thing where I don't blame one person for somebody else's actions. Its an accountability, responsibility, respect, and honor thing.

On the other hand, it is sad that I would have to agree that today, we need to be paranoid and assertive because we cannot always expect the best intention even from those we train with. so your point is not wasted here. Thank you for that.

SeiserL
08-03-2007, 05:33 AM
Thank you to everyone whom has offered their opinion and support on this matter, it has been truly appreciated.
I am truly pleased you found a course of action, some resolve, and some comfort and support in this forum.

Don't worry about us taking it too far or too personally. One of the things I love about the martial arts is that we are passionate about what we believe and have the strength to voice and act on it. Good people here. No problem. People disagree with me all the time. Its good practice.

Please also extend my compliments and respect to your Sensei, Dojo, and support system.

Rei
Osu
Domo

gdandscompserv
08-03-2007, 11:25 AM
AnonAikidoka,
I am sorry for what happened to you. Your innocence was taken advantage of and that is a shame. We seem to lose little pieces of innocence throughout our lives until we become calloused, grumpy old men who want to chop the heads off of people who steal that innocence. So don't mind our bickering. We work it out on the mat anyway. Like Lynn says, there are good people hear with good hearts. I know my son and I appreciated the support we received from the members of this forum when my son was bullied at school.
IMO, a dojo is a sacred place of refuge, where one can train comfortably and joyfully.
Bad characters need not apply.

Ron Tisdale
08-03-2007, 11:27 AM
Best Wishes, and get on with the business of Living Well.

Ron

Keith Larman
08-03-2007, 12:22 PM
I'm late to the discussion. And frankly I quit reading much of it because it wasn't really germane to the original post. But to you, anonymous one, please do make that step of speaking with someone who is a professional. You mentioned it bringing up something from your past. Someone I care for very deeply was deeply scarred by events in her past. Things she'd thought she'd long dealt with. Things she thought were firmly in the past. But later another negative experience brought forth some very strong emotions that had been long buried. And it was very difficult to deal with all over again. And it created tremendous tension in a long standing and very strong marriage. That is not an uncommon thing unfortunately.

This forum offers a lot of support and trust me, we're all rooting for you and we're all sending you our absolutely best wishes. But ultimately you might consider finding a more private, professional setting to discuss what happened recently but also in the past.

The person who held you down and tried to force himself on you? Absolutely wrong. But now you need to focus on making sure he is dealt with and *just as importantly* making sure you deal with your own feelings and memories.

The next step is up to you -- find someone qualified to talk to. It is important. Your peace of mind is important. You only live once (that I know of at least) so focus on finding a way to live the best life possible. And unresolved issues have a way of raising their ugly heads in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways your entire life.

But the bottom line? Take care. And I'd be proud that you had the courage to speak up.

Chuck Clark
08-03-2007, 01:24 PM
AnonAikidoka, I also think you have done well in the way you have dealt with this experience. The support you are getting from your sensei and dojo mates will help in the healing and learning process for a long time. I'm glad that it's working for you.

Gambatte!

Adam Alexander
08-03-2007, 08:51 PM
Have I learned something from this experience, yes!?!

I think that's the most important thing.

You can press all the charges you want for whatever reason, but at the end of the day, it's only vengeance. You can't erase what happens.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Keep yourself in safer situations. We all have to learn our lessons.

Guilty Spark
08-03-2007, 09:13 PM
With all sympathy and respect to AnonAikidoka, this is the internet... some of you may remember a few years ago when, on this very discussion board, a person complained about seriously abusive situations going on in the dojo environment. As things developed many people were engaged emotionally and even officially involved in looking into taking action to solve the problems. And... then we found out that the person was lying about the situation all along just to engage others in drama.

I'm not saying this is happening in this current thread. Just be aware that this sort of thing happens on the internet often.


Exactly what I was attempting to touch on in my post.

Obviously don't ignore the post, address it as it were serious but don't debate over it.

heathererandolph
08-04-2007, 07:26 AM
I think it's entirely possible Anonymous did not see his attentions as sexual. Given his age, she probably felt safe. Mostly, we trust our professors and other's older in authority. Does one worry when seeing a male professor during regular office hours, alone? No. Why? Trust. In Aikido, we do have to touch each other so I think there is a lot of trust. That could also be part of it. Most adults will let the other person know of their interest, not try to trick them into a situation of isolation.

His actions reminds me of how a pedophile lures a young child into a car. Sure she was older than a child, but I think she was brave to admit to her naivete in this situation.

As to what to do, if anything, that is the question. It is painful for Anonymous to have to be the bearer of bad news, no one really wants to hear it. Sometimes the bearer of bad news is blamed for the actions of the other person.

If it is possible for this victim to get a restraining order on this person, that would be a step in the right direction. I would think such a thing would exist in England. I think a police report would be in order also. In case he assaults her again, she would at least be able to reference the earlier report. I think after the fact would be better than none.

A rape crisis center should be able to help her with resources.

This person thinks he is justified in some way for what happened. I think it's important that he knows it's unacceptable behavior.

If you need a reason why, think that with the age difference (sounds like it is substantial to me) it could be a teenager next. It could be rape or worse next. I think the victim simply needs to make it known that this did happen, and let what else happens happen. It was not her fault.

Basia Halliop
08-04-2007, 09:11 AM
You can press all the charges you want for whatever reason, but at the end of the day, it's only vengeance. You can't erase what happens.

I'm not sure this is true at all... authorities can try to figure out if he's a risk to others, or they can talk to him and if he's truly just stupid, give him the shock of realizing what the law is and how far he overstepped human decency or whatever. There's hopefully a lot more to police and other authorities than 'vengeance'. What about the responsibilities of citizens to protect the public? Otherwise what's supposed to stop him acting any differently the next time he meets someone?

Even if after talking to the police she still decides not to press charges or pursue the matter further, better to hear that from the police then from some person on the internet, plus they can give her better advice on what to do in the future.

Adam Alexander
08-04-2007, 09:21 AM
I'm not sure this is true at all... authorities can try to figure out if he's a risk to others, or they can talk to him and if he's truly just stupid, give him the shock of realizing what the law is and how far he overstepped human decency or whatever. There's hopefully a lot more to police and other authorities than 'vengeance'. What about the responsibilities of citizens to protect the public? Otherwise what's supposed to stop him acting any differently the next time he meets someone?

Even if after talking to the police she still decides not to press charges or pursue the matter further, better to hear that from the police then from some person on the internet, plus they can give her better advice on what to do in the future.

I'd rather see women making better decisions than using the law to reduce the liklihood of repercussions for other women making poor choices.

Qatana
08-04-2007, 11:00 AM
Adam, Im curious to how you believe this should have been handled, and if your response would be any different if the Original Poster had told the Exact Same story, but was a younger, smaller Man instead of a younger, smaller woman?

Amelia Smith
08-04-2007, 11:41 AM
I'm also a latecomer to the discussion, but wanted to weigh in on a couple of issues.

1. Reporting incidents like this is not primarily about vengance, as least it doe -- it's a way of keeping oneself and others safer in the future.

2. To those of you who are saying she should just take care of this herself, and not involve others, would you say the same to the victim of a car accident? Suppose someone were a bit tired one day, and stepped into the crosswalk without looking both ways. A car clipped him/her, enough to hurt badly, but not enough to be permanently dissabling. Should the pedestrian have looked both ways? Yes. Should the driver be held responsible? Definitely. If the driver has a history of endangering pedestrians, his or her liscence should be taken away.

It's not a perfect analogy, because the driver in that case isn't being intentionally deceptive or malicious, just careless with others' lives.

3. I think the guy should be asked to leave the dojo.

Anon, I hope you're doing all right, and I wish you well in the healing process. Don't be afraid to ask for help, or just take time for yourself if you need it.

jennifer paige smith
08-04-2007, 01:12 PM
This is Fu8743 (that spells a bad word).

Key words that apply:
Behaviour Grooming (a well developed process of manipulation)
Rape/ Violation ( spelled a little bit like violence, in'nt it?)
Shame and Emabarssment ( tools of a predator.. )
Predator (taking your flesh without your consent)
Responsibility ( to report) he is responsible for the crime and you are reponsible for the follow through.

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder - The language you are using to blame yourself in the aftermath of this terrible personal violation is a symptom of PTSD.

Healing- what you will experience when you recognize that you were hurt.

Acceptance- what I feel for you.

I'm sorry life is unkind at times. Training is an amazing tool for dealing with life, even the life that training sometimes brings.

By the way, this same thing happened to me when I was twelve. It took me years to break through the painful glass that surrounded the violation and to recognize it for what it was: a personal assault on my well being.
It took a similar situation in my old dojo, 4 years ago, to help me walk through this and come to terms with my independent responses and power. I survived and so will you.

JAMJTX
08-04-2007, 02:15 PM
I can only echo the words already expressed: Report it to the police.

He will do this again to someone else and may even push it farther with the next person.

You should also not feel like it was your fault or you did anything wrong. You were preyed upon by a manipulating older person who knew he could take advantage of you. I'm also sure he knew that you would not report him. Please prove him wrong in that regard.

The only thing I was surprised to read about was that you got back in the car with him. This put you in a very dangerous situation. He could have very easily attacked you in the car where you could not get away, or driven you to an even more isolated place. If anyone is ever in a similar situation, don't get in the car again. Don't take this as a lecture on how another assault would have been your fault for getting in the car again. It wouldn't have been. Just please learn that lesson and don't get in the car.

Adam Alexander
08-04-2007, 02:36 PM
Adam, Im curious to how you believe this should have been handled, and if your response would be any different if the Original Poster had told the Exact Same story, but was a younger, smaller Man instead of a younger, smaller woman?

I don't know how it should of been handled. I didn't criticize or praise the poster's actions. What I praised was that, rather than pretend that she couldn't prevent such a situation in the future, she learned the consequences of taking for granted that people will treat her in a fashion that she considers right.

My belief is that if we all took greater responsibility for the safety of ourselves and our children rather than rely on chance that nothing bad will happen or that the police can fix what has happened, this story wouldn't of developed.

I carry the same opinion if it were a man.

I will say that I think most of the posters who've talked about grooming and all this other crazy stuff are out of touch with reality. Up to the time the guy started using force, he didn't do anything that most guys, including myself, have done to get a woman when we're naive. It's a part of being a stupid kid. Maybe this dimwit didn't learn this lesson until the other day.

Calling his behavior all these crazy names is madness. As I understand it, in my grandparent's era, it was common to "run out of gas" on a lonely road. I'm sure some girls were hurt that way, I'm sure it was part of a long happy relationship for others. Should the foolish man who ran out of gas with the wrong girl and tried making out with her be hanged even though he stopped? Should he be stigmatized "just in case" he might, someday, hurt some girl?

You decide. I'd rather simplify and just have my daughter not hang out alone with boys.


EDIT: Another thing, in an effort to "prevent" this person from doing anything wrong in the future, what if he learned his lesson that day? What if he finds himself in a situation as I did yesterday being falsely accused of making inappropriate comments to kids about their mothers? What happens to him if he's falsely accused of rape? Because he made a stupid mistake, the false accusation becomes that much believable. It's a scary world where people don't take responsibility for their actions.

Adam Alexander
08-05-2007, 12:18 AM
Welcome to common sense folks.

Cordula Meyer
08-05-2007, 04:00 AM
Common sense ? Is that the way you feel in your dojo:
Every time a Sempai calls you up and invites you for a dojo event, you distrust him and suspect that he maybe lying ?

Adam Alexander
08-05-2007, 10:49 AM
Common sense ? Is that the way you feel in your dojo:
Every time a Sempai calls you up and invites you for a dojo event, you distrust him and suspect that he maybe lying ?

Yes. Not only is it a good practice that keeps you safe, but it's good training.

However, the common sense isn't about people being aware of their surroundings and where they put themselves (which was common sense) but about the out-of-touch-with-everyday-reality the posters who claim this guy's actions are necessarily leading him up to be a rapist.

I just told my fiance this story and the responses, she frowned and said,"When you get in a car with a man, you're accepting what's going to happen. You should be ready to handle whatever consequences come for you. If he would of raped her, she should of said to herself,'Well, I put myself in this situation, I'm going to have to deal with the consequences of my action." (EDIT: Now that's a good woman...Lucky me!)

SeiserL
08-05-2007, 10:58 AM
Welcome to common sense folks.
IMHO, common sense isn't all that common anymore. especially in situations like the one described.

Its a line of attack thing. If you open your perception, you see much more that just the attack when it physically touches you. You see where it came from, where its headed, its intent/intensity, and how practiced it is.

All this information is already there if you know what to look for. Unfortunately, most people don't know what to look for. Fortunately, most don't have to.

BTW, much of the advise given has a place in the sequential healing process. Most of my comments are entirely directed to our friend to be of the most help now and to hopefully counter or run interference to those she will need to hear later.

Again, my compliments to the compassion of this forum.

jennifer paige smith
08-05-2007, 11:21 AM
I don't know how it should of been handled. I didn't criticize or praise the poster's actions. What I praised was that, rather than pretend that she couldn't prevent such a situation in the future, she learned the consequences of taking for granted that people will treat her in a fashion that she considers right.

My belief is that if we all took greater responsibility for the safety of ourselves and our children rather than rely on chance that nothing bad will happen or that the police can fix what has happened, this story wouldn't of developed.

I carry the same opinion if it were a man.

I will say that I think most of the posters who've talked about grooming and all this other crazy stuff are out of touch with reality. Up to the time the guy started using force, he didn't do anything that most guys, including myself, have done to get a woman when we're naive. It's a part of being a stupid kid. Maybe this dimwit didn't learn this lesson until the other day.

Calling his behavior all these crazy names is madness. As I understand it, in my grandparent's era, it was common to "run out of gas" on a lonely road. I'm sure some girls were hurt that way, I'm sure it was part of a long happy relationship for others. Should the foolish man who ran out of gas with the wrong girl and tried making out with her be hanged even though he stopped? Should he be stigmatized "just in case" he might, someday, hurt some girl?

You decide. I'd rather simplify and just have my daughter not hang out alone with boys.

EDIT: Another thing, in an effort to "prevent" this person from doing anything wrong in the future, what if he learned his lesson that day? What if he finds himself in a situation as I did yesterday being falsely accused of making inappropriate comments to kids about their mothers? What happens to him if he's falsely accused of rape? Because he made a stupid mistake, the false accusation becomes that much believable. It's a scary world where people don't take responsibility for their actions.

Women are accused of abuses everyday. Welcome to the club.

In you grandparents age it was also common for rape to go unreported and unprosecuted. It was also common to blame women for enticing men who couldn't 'help themselves' . And it was common for women to experience debilitating depression and suicidal preoccupations from the mis-conception that it was their fault.
Aikido is the art of loving protection for all beings. Protecting people from themselves and from hurting others and protecting ourselves from dangerous circumstances. This particular story, as it stands, accomplishes all of these things. Good Aikido, good training, good learning.

There is a lot of grey area between the black you call black and the white you call white.

And while I whole heartedly agree that people need take responsibility for themselves; I also know the consequence of violation and societies overarching and remaining views of women as too inadequate for real power yet held completely responsible for themselves.

Good Men do well to remember and to teach that they are the protectors of women in our society. While we struggle, while we learn, while we grow, while we attempt to maintain the innocence of the world in our hearts, for our children, and for our families we need protective men for our wellness. And we love you all on top of that.

Adam Alexander
08-05-2007, 11:59 AM
Good Men do well to remember and to teach that they are the protectors of women in our society. While we struggle, while we learn, while we grow, while we attempt to maintain the innocence of the world in our hearts, for our children, and for our families we need protective men for our wellness. And we love you all on top of that.

Innocence is what got this poor kid in her situation in the first place. If she maintains that "innocence" she might be in the emegency room getting her arse swabbed or in the morgue next. Good life lessons you have there.

Women have equality. Protect yourself.

Qatana
08-05-2007, 02:12 PM
Adam, how long have you been practicing aikido?

Adam Alexander
08-05-2007, 04:05 PM
Adam, how long have you been practicing aikido?

Why do you ask?

Adam Alexander
08-05-2007, 04:09 PM
IMHO, common sense isn't all that common anymore. especially in situations like the one described.


It doesn't have to be that way.

If this young woman went out and told all her friends that she had the power to prevent it and there wasn't much sense in crying about it, the tide would turn within her circle of influence. If, however, she goes out telling all her friends how she bears no responsibility for her own safety, then rather than helping empower other young women with a sense of control in their lives, they'll drift from one situation to the other without regard to their ability to keep themselves safe.

SeiserL
08-05-2007, 04:27 PM
It doesn't have to be that way. If this young woman went out and told all her friends that she had the power to prevent it and there wasn't much sense in crying about it, the tide would turn within her circle of influence. If, however, she goes out telling all her friends how she bears no responsibility for her own safety, then rather than helping empower other young women with a sense of control in their lives, they'll drift from one situation to the other without regard to their ability to keep themselves safe.
IMHO, you are right. It doesn't have to be that way. But, for now it is.

The way I read the initial post, our friend in question owned her part and responsibility of the dance and simply needed some support and encouragement not to take blame for the other party's part.

Its that wisdom to know and own your part along with know and let go of the other part.

IMHO, healing is a sequential process.

Adam Alexander
08-05-2007, 04:39 PM
IMHO, you are right. It doesn't have to be that way. But, for now it is.


"Now" only lasts for a moment. What's next is up to each of us and the actions we all take.

Hopefully, the lesson she learned becomes common to the people she knows and interacts with.

Michael Hackett
08-05-2007, 07:00 PM
We must all take some responsibility for the outcome of our actions. Nothing bad has ever happened to me that I didn't have some hand in to a greater or lesser degree. But to expect that anyone, including a young woman, will perceive every possible danger and prepare for it is hogwash.

I am reminded of a homicide my detectives worked one Christmas season. The victim was shopping in a mall in the Sacramento area and was walking to her car in broad daylight. Sbe placed her packages in the trunk of her vehicle and walked to the driver's side to get in. An "unoccupied" van was parked two spaces (as I recall) from the driver's side of her car. As she opened the door, she was blitzed by one of the suspects and dragged into the van which sped off.

The suspects drove south on Interstate 5 and took turns raping and beating the victim and even buying gasoline with her credit card. They eventually arrived in the El Centro area and threw her alive in an irrigation canal, bound with duct tape and left to drown. We found her body the following day and then found her car in the Phoenix area about a week later. Both suspects have been tried and convicted.

My whole point in this horrible story is that the victim did all the things we advise people to do and was careful and aware of her surroundings. She did nothing wrong and still ended up dead. I used to refer to her as the purest homicide victim I'd ever dealt with. No booze, no drugs, no promescruity, no bad companions - nothing. Tragic.

Once the story became widely known, I'm sure many rethought how they did normal things in life. Why should any segment of our society live in fear? Maybe AnonAikidoka will share her story with others on a more personal level that she has here and help protect her friends, relatives and associates. That might prove helpful to them and even prove helpful to her, but when all is said and done, she was victimized by someone more skilled and experienced that she. Did she make a mistake? Sure she did - she behaved normally with a friend and was taken advantage of. She should always stay home barricaded with her pack of attack dogs and her trusty AK-47 across her lap.

Adam Alexander
08-05-2007, 08:27 PM
My responses are underlined in bold.


My whole point in this horrible story is that the victim did all the things we advise people to do and was careful and aware of her surroundings.

I don't know for sure, but I imagine part of your point has more to do with appealing to emotion. Otherwise, you wouldn't of gone into so much detail. No disrespect intended. It's a sad story and a shame that it happens to people and others have to feel the repercussions.

The woman didn't pay attention to something suspicious. As a man, if a van is parked near me when I approach, I am extra cautious. I never even park next to them.

She did nothing wrong and still ended up dead. I used to refer to her as the purest homicide victim I'd ever dealt with.

Morally wrong? Of course not. Idealistically wrong? Not a bit. Wrong if she was planning a long, healthy life? The unfortunate result speaks for itself.

Did she make a mistake? Sure she did - she behaved normally with a friend and was taken advantage of.

She chose the wrong kind of friend. Women who hang out with men alone are courting trouble.

She should always stay home barricaded with her pack of attack dogs and her trusty AK-47 across her lap.

No one's suggesting that. However, going out alone with a guy is a factor in this situation. A sense of fear that keeps women--and men-- out of those situations is healthy. That's all I'm ever suggesting.

A little fear keeps us alert, cautious and safe. I bet, because of what you've seen, your kids don't put themselves in bad situations.

What you've witnessed is awful. However, with all due respect, that woman's husband and family probably lie in bed every night wondering what they could of done different. The sad truth is that they could of prevented it.

Once something bad happens, you can't take it back.

Let me ask you this. Suppose this girl doesn't retain a heavy sense of fear because people here comforted her and tomorrow she makes a similar mistake but ends up like the woman you cited. Do you have a sense of responsibility for that happening?

The police and other organizations have been warning and warning people forever. However, I don't know anyone who takes that stuff seriously.

Maybe it's time to stop comforting people after something bad happens. Maybe if today you stopped comforting people who put themselves in bad positions, maybe if you said this girl walked into it, mabye tonight some girl who's reading this will not make the same mistake. Maybe in an effort to make this girl feel okay about her bad decision, you're leading other girls down the path to ruin because rather than someone saying "You screwed up" you're implying "You encountered someone out of the norm."

Now, this girl who's reading says that the creep she's going out with tonight isn't "that kind of guy" rather than saying "my safety is my concern." You see the change in perspective? The comforting approach tells others that danger is external; it's about the guy who you're with, not that you're jeopardizing your safety.

I don't know anything for sure. I'm just a guy who operates off my experience. But I'd rather error on the side of caution.

Alright. Thanks for your patience as I developed this. I posted as I did because I'm always sincerely concerned about people. It bothers me more than I can say that people speak in such a short-sighted way.

I do believe the man's behavior here was exaggerated by posters. It sounds like he lied to this woman, wrestled with her a bit and stuck his tongue in her mouth. All of that, in context, is disgusting behavior.

However, I fear the effect on our culture by the perspectives of the posters will result in greater harm than any this man committed.

These posts have been made with all due respect.

Michael Hackett
08-05-2007, 11:34 PM
There is a huge difference between a healthy fear and being alert. Most, if not all of us have gone out on dates with co-workers, classmates, and friends of friends. Usually we truly don't know the individual and we do take a chance on our own safety to some degree or another. Our date may be a drinker who drives like a madman, our date may misinterpret a simple date and end up boiling your rabbit. There simply are no guarantees. If you want to be completely safe, then don't interact with anyone (the literature on familial molestation of boys and girls is legion as are the current revelations of molesting religious leaders (please forgive the use of "revelations."

Often we do activities with others for considerable time and grow accustomed to them, their normal behavior, their interests and their shortcomings. Sometimes we grow attached to them and enjoy their company and develop bonds of trust. I think that may be true for martial artists in particular where we trust our safety and lives to the good intentions of our training partners.

At this point, being critical of a victim serves little purpose. I can almost bet that she's examining every conversation she ever had with this guy and every interaction she experienced with him. Yes, she bears some responsibility at the end of the day, but it appears that she behaved reasonably and expected a pleasant encounter with a friend. She got taken advantage of and I suspect that she will never put it behind her - telling her now how wrong she was just makes it worse for her to put it in perspective. She's already done the work you suggest.

Obviously I don't know, but I bet that someone who describes himself as wary as you seem to makes mistakes in judgement too. Have you ever stopped for a police car in the middle of the night? I can think of two California Highway Patrol officers doing life in prison for murder of young women. Ever opened the door for Federal Express or UPS or the USPS? Numerous home invasion robberies have taken place that way. Ever leave your keys with the valet parking on an evening out? Keys get duplicated and your house burglarized sometimes as a result. Ever posted a funeral notice of a loved one? Sometimes burglars hit the house during the funeral. Nothing is completely safe in this life.

I just don't think providing moral support to a victim and providing advice to her will generate a cohort of young women who will blunder into harms way as a result.

Oh yeah, I don't park next to suspicious vehicles either, but in this case, the fully windowed van was two parking spaces away at noontime in a row of parked vehicles near the entry of the up-scape shops. According to the suspects they stayed beneath the windows and didn't move at all until they struck so not to tip her off. I don't know that I would have done any better, even with my off duty pistol and my Swiss Army Knife in my pocket.

Kevin Wilbanks
08-06-2007, 12:32 AM
Adam,

I have to agree with Micheal. The level of "healthy fear" you describe sounds more like unhealthy paranoia to me, accompanied by some sort of delusions of infallibility. If you want to talk about bad effects of attitudes on the public, unreasonable paranoia blows touchy-feely coddling away by orders of magnitude. Take a look at what has happened to our country and constitution over unreasonable paranoia over terrorism.

One of the biggest problems I see with our society is the inability or unwillingness to sort out the various risks in their lives using reason and actual information, rather than blind emotion. Terrorism is probably the biggest case in point. There are literally dozens of dangers people face that are a more likely threat to their safety, many voluntary, and some more risky by a factor of hundreds or even thousands, yet people are willing to sell their progeny into debt slavery and abandon their freedoms in the name of taking extreme measures to reduce this "risk".

I can give you an anecdote that I think is even more appropriate to your specific suggestions. My father was, in my view, obsessed with the risk of being a victim of violent crime. He had a carry permit and kept a gun on him at almost all times. There was a loaded gun in every room in his house, a deluxe electronic security system. If he didn't know who was at the door, he often answered it with a gun in his hand... Over the course of about 40 years of this kind of behavior, no one ever attempted to invade his house, although he almost shot my step-sister's boyfriend once. He could only point to two incidents out in public where he thought he might have had to use his gun, but didn't even have to brandish it to escape from the situation. Meanwhile he always overate, drank to excess, and never exercised. He died at age 59 from colon cancer. The cancer may have been unrelated to his ignorance of major health risks but I doubt it. Moreover, current theories of immunity suggest that continuous emotional stress associated with habits like excessive worry about being attacked by bad guys are another huge risk factor in diseases like cancer.

My guess is that if everyone adopted the level of "healthy fear" you suggest, most would end up wasting a good portion of their time and the potential enjoyment in their life for no reason, and far more would die of cancer related to the accompanying emotional stress than would ever have fallen victim to random violence.

SeiserL
08-06-2007, 06:08 AM
Hopefully, the lesson she learned becomes common to the people she knows and interacts with.
Sadly, this is where we certainly agree.

PS, "now" last as long as we hold on to it. Its an attachment thing. Learning to let go and move on is sometimes hard to do. (Sorta like this thread.)

Adam Alexander
08-06-2007, 08:57 AM
I just don't think providing moral support to a victim and providing advice to her will generate a cohort of young women who will blunder into harms way as a result.


But if the type of guidance you offered did play a hand in the bad choices made by some women, would you be responsible for it?


On using words like "cohort" and talking about people walking around with guns and not answering the door, you've tried to take a practical position and make it extreme. If I were to do that with people who think the victim's not responsible, I'd say that those people think women should walk naked through the inner-city.

It just doesn't make sense.

Mary Eastland
08-06-2007, 09:15 AM
Dear Anon:
I hope you are getting your answers somehwere else...'cause this thread has turned rather crazy.

This incident was not your fault and you did nothing wrong. He hurt you.

Mary

Michael Hackett
08-06-2007, 09:37 AM
Adam,

My short answer is "yes". If she followed my post-event advice by notifying the police, notifying her teacher, and seeking some counseling and had a bad outcome, I would feel terrible about it. I suppose that any one of those steps could have resulted in further danger to her, but that simply hasn't been my experience over many years, nor has it been my experience through my peers and colleqgues, or the literature in my professional field.

I certainly have a number of suggestions and advice to prevent some of these events before they happen as well - just ask my wife, daughter, granddaughter and many, mamy female friends from a lifetime of living and working in the most violent parts of a pretty decent world. If that advice had gone south so to speak, I would feel badly as well.

Not providing some guidance and advice resulting in a bad outcome when it could possibly help would be worst of all to my sense of personal responsibility. Anon didn't ask whether she should walk down dark alleys while intoxicated, hitch-hike, or go on motorcycle rides with outlaw bikers. She merely asked what courses of action would be helpful after her unfortunate event. I can live with that level of guilt.

Michael Hackett
08-06-2007, 09:41 AM
Gotta start using the spell check feature - colleagues dammit!

gdandscompserv
08-06-2007, 10:18 AM
Don't worry about your spelling Michael. Your advise and observations are appreciated.
:)

Kevin Wilbanks
08-06-2007, 11:18 AM
On using words like "cohort" and talking about people walking around with guns and not answering the door, you've tried to take a practical position and make it extreme. If I were to do that with people who think the victim's not responsible, I'd say that those people think women should walk naked through the inner-city.

It just doesn't make sense.

Actually, your weak analogy doesn't make sense. The extremity and impracticality was in your position to begin with. You claimed that no matter what bad thing is ever done to a person by another, it could have been prevented by some kind of infallible hyper-vigilance on their part. Specifically: you claimed that people should be vigilant to the point of seeing parking three spaces away from a windowed van in front of Nordstrom's as a situation of extreme peril. You claimed that women should categorically avoid having male friends. You claimed that anything less than stern criticism for failure of vigilance is an inappropriate response to any victim of any crime that will cause them to learn nothing from their experience, and that it will spread mindless recklessness among their friends like a virus....

Qatana
08-06-2007, 11:37 AM
I believe he also claims that anti-assault/rape laws are extraneous and unecessary.

Adam Alexander
08-06-2007, 12:13 PM
My short answer is "yes". If she followed...

I'm not above error. So, please understand that this line of questioning is in an effort to understand, not convince.

When you say that she did nothing "wrong", are you saying that the following is an accurate statement? "If this woman's goals were to stay safe, befriending this person and being isolated with him was 'right' to attain that goal."

My other question, if you don't mind, is if a third party heard you say that the girl did nothing "wrong" and interpreted it as I believe it's being stated (it's not wrong to put yourself in bad situations) would you feel responsible if that person followed your advice with this interpretation and was hurt because of it? That's what I'm really curious about. Would you bear a burden for what happened?

You claimed that no matter what bad thing is ever done to a person by another, it could have been prevented by some kind of infallible hyper-vigilance on their part.

If that's what I implied, that's not what I intended. I'm just suggesting that blanketing every disaster with "you didn't do anything wrong" may have a negative effect on the victim and others. Like I said, I don't know.

Specifically: you claimed that people should be vigilant to the point of seeing parking three spaces away from a windowed van in front of Nordstrom's as a situation of extreme peril.

That's accurate. As a man, I would approach that situation very cautiously. If I were a woman hoping to stay safe, I think I'd approach it even more cautiously.

I believe that's being alert. I don't see anything wrong with that. As I approach a door, I'm looking for things ahead. When I step into a room, I look around to get a feel for anything out of the blue. When I walk into a parking lot, I look acrossed it for anything suspicious or weak positions.

This alertness, although I haven't been jumped by a gang of ninjas exiting the back of a devlivery truck has kept me out of several accidents and keeps my woman happy because I walk her to her car every morning. Sounds like a win/win situation to me.

You claimed that women should categorically avoid having male friends.

No, I really didn't. Women can have male friends. However, if you want to hang out alone with him, and there are consequences, I think she should probably point the finger of accusation at the people who told her it was okay to hang out alone with men just as much as she should point the finger at herself for accepting the bad advice and the men who victimized her.

You claimed that anything less than stern criticism for failure of vigilance is an inappropriate response to any victim of any crime that will cause them to learn nothing from their experience

No, I really didn't do that either. I simply said that it might be time to stop telling people who put themselves in bad positions that they "didn't do anything wrong" so that they understand that they had the power to prevent it and others have the power to prevent such situations for themselves.

I believe that if people knew or understood their responsibility in keeping themselves safe, these stories would cease.

, and that it will spread mindless recklessness among their friends like a virus....

I'd change that to "continue to spread mindless recklesness among their friends". That she put herself in the position was reckless. I assume her friends would do the same.

You have the chance to say to those friends and everyone else,"This is why you shouldn't get in a car with a man if you want to keep yourself in one piece."

Mabye, rather than just help this person, you'd help prevent a lot of other stories like it if instead of saying she did nothing wrong (Again, nothing wrong is she wanted to avoid trouble?)...

Would you also answer the question about responsibility for advice given?

Michael Hackett
08-06-2007, 12:27 PM
Adam,

I guess all of life is a series of making choices based on probability. Some activities simply have a greater probability of danger or disaster than others. For an extreme example, a black man walking into the compound of a white supremist group might not be the wisest course of action. I think though by contrast, a young woman who trains in a dojo with several different people and is invited to an event by a dojo mate is probably fairly safe from harm. Obviously that didn't prove to be the case this time. If I knew the man in question in the same context that she apparently did and held him in the same regard, I might have suggested that it would be OK to go out on the excursion. With the outcome that we now know, would I feel quilty about telling her it was alright? Not for a second. Would I feel badly for her - you bet. Would I feel angry at the man and disgusted with his conduct. Absolutely.

A woman in our society should be able to do almost anything in reason safely, as should a man. Some things just aren't wise for either gender and should be avoided. Doing off-the-mat activities with dojo mates probably ranks right up there with good things to do - at least they do in my dojo and the dojo I know.

Adam Alexander
08-06-2007, 12:49 PM
I might have suggested that it would be OK to go out on the excursion. With the outcome that we now know, would I feel quilty about telling her it was alright? Not for a second.

I suppose that's the crux. I would feel a sense of responsibility, so I suppose I expect others to do the same.

Thanks for taking the time.

Michael Hackett
08-06-2007, 01:22 PM
Now I'm beginning to see our disconnect. I see the two concepts as very different. Guilt is an emotion based on doing the wrong thing knowingly. Responsibility is another concept that requires intellectually acknowledging one's part in an outcome. For example, if I run a red light in a busy intersection and injure an innocent party, I would very likely feel a sense of guilt. If the light turned green for my direction of travel and I didn't pause a moment to ensure the intersection was clear of cross traffic and ended up in a traffic collision, I probably would acknowledge a level of responsibility for the outcome.

I've been primarily, or even partially responsible for all sorts of things over the years. I feel guilt to this day for two of them - and there are those who think I'm a pretty decent guy anyway.

Adam Alexander
08-06-2007, 01:40 PM
Yeah, I know plenty of guilt.

However, I think it's like telling people that doing their best is good enough. With that attitude, I believe, people don't push themselves to do their best because they accept what they believe to be their best.

So, I suppose I'm happy enough with the guilt because, in that way, I think the world around me becomes better.

I suppose we'll all find out what we accomplished and didn't on judgement day.

Gernot Hassenpflug
08-07-2007, 10:21 PM
Here is an article that discusses some aspects of evaluating threat:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html

SeiserL
08-08-2007, 05:24 AM
Here is an article that discusses some aspects of evaluating threat:
IMHO, Animal is usually right on and I have enjoyed several conversations with him. As can be seen, at least by description, this illustrates all 5 levels. Thanks for the resource and the reminder. IMHO, this type of discussion is very useful.

dalen7
08-12-2007, 01:09 PM
... I suppose I expect others to do the same.



just a note on the above comment as it stands. (not in regards to the thread)
This is the 'crux' of any issue is expecting something from others.

Others are indeed 'others' and we tend to muddle things up with our 'expectations' from them - all the while we are 'shifting' and 'changing' our view points on things. - thus they cant 'keep up' to ones expectations, thus allowing 'disease' to continue between people)

As far as the other comment 'judgement day' - suppose if thats your mindset. :)

Adam Alexander
08-12-2007, 05:43 PM
just a note on the above comment as it stands. (not in regards to the thread)
This is the 'crux' of any issue is expecting something from others.

Others are indeed 'others' and we tend to muddle things up with our 'expectations' from them - all the while we are 'shifting' and 'changing' our view points on things. - thus they cant 'keep up' to ones expectations, thus allowing 'disease' to continue between people)

As far as the other comment 'judgement day' - suppose if thats your mindset. :)

I wish Aikiweb had a Trollkido forum where I could respond to this.:crazy:

cherif morsi
09-08-2007, 03:49 AM
To Lynn Seiser

You really amaze me as a person even if we come from different cultures. From my tiny little experience in Aikido (barely two months!!), I am really dreaming of having your wisdom. That is probably what Aikido is about as we, as human beings, are very weak by nature and the practice of Aikido really helps improving one's weaknesses which is exactly what I am looking for in Aikido. Not being a fighter or the like at all (as this debate would stop instantly if the attacker is an established street fighter holding a gun), not having extra confidence, but rather reaching a certain wisdom level to make myself much more serene in a life that is ubber violent, stressful and merciless. Again thanks Lynn so much for all of your thoughts in this forum.

Back to the subject, I think AnonAikidoka has a moral obligation to report the incident to her Sensei but in private to make it easier for her as I bet it is not easy for her to think that everybody in her dojo knows what happened and also inform her Sensei that she will report her agressor to the authorities to avoid any other student being his victim. Anon Aikidoka, you have to report this guy but of course get a lawyer first before going to the police as these matters are very delicate and to avoid the situation backfiring at you.
Best of luck and don't even think about it anymore!

Cherif

Angela Dunn
09-11-2007, 07:17 AM
and I am feeling fairly okay enough to post under my real name now. This is probably going to be my last post on this thread UNLESS theres later comments I want to respond to. We shall see.

Just wanted to give a quick update on what happened since for those who where kind enough to offer advice and show some interest.

The guy in question never came back to the dojo or the organization. I think this was his own decision, if the higher uppers in my dojo did discuss what happened with him then I do not know the circumstances around that nor do I want to.I do not think they did though. As I mentioned in other posts I did tell my Sensei what had happened and we did talk about it and what it meant in terms of training with him etc. He give select details to other people in class and one day maybe I will tell people what happened. Or they recognize my name on here and read about it as I know a fair few people in my dojo do read these forumns.*Shrugs*

In fact I have never seen him or heard from Sir Wan of Kerr (clearly not his real name!) as I have been calling him since. In some ways this is a good thing as part of me feels relief at that, the other part of me wishes he had/would come back so I can ask him just what where you thinking that night and give him a few choice words and gestures . (Also to show him actually , yeah you done this to me but if you think that stopped me from getting on with my life ha your wrong! In fact eventually it made me realise a few things and in a strange way realise sure bad things happen but I have choices and can do things to change crappy situations. Which may sound slightly child like but in reality thats how I feel...and as a not so direct result of getting attacked and the support I got afterwards, both from the dojo and unofficially from professionals (Lucky me doing voluntary work within a counseling organization so I do plan to take up there services if I feel the need to regarding this in the future but they have give me training I could adapt to my own needs with this which is definitely helping for now)This event pushed me into making a few decisions. Now I am in a new role at work, am making the most of training opportunities both in and out of my dojo and generally am happier with life. )

So slowly getting over what happened then. And for those wondering I made the choice not to report this, maybe I should have for many valid arguments made in this forumn but in the end simply could not bring myself to do it.

Again thanks to everyone who did take the time to offer advice, opinions and support. It give me a lot to think about and it really was appreciated.

Ange.