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David Orange
07-26-2007, 04:07 PM
Okay. I think I see what's what.

All this talk about the fascia has become clear, but it's so simple I don't know why no one has stated it quite clearly here yet.

Mike did come close when he described the fascia as a "suit" under the skin, but it was also a misdirecting comment, so I didn't connect with it.

The importance of the fascia is this: it is a semi-independent system that permeates almost the entire human body. It wraps the outside of our internal organs and wraps the inside of the abdomen. It also wraps every muscle of the body and every joint.

But the ingenious thing about the fascia is that it is all all alive and all connected. That makes it the only real whole-body system we have--other than the skin.

Up until now, I have not realized that the entire fascia system is a single unity. I have been looking at it more muscle-by-muscle, as in an anatomical illustration. But realizing that it is a unified system makes a big difference.

AND: the fascia system has "whole-body knowledge" that is shared instantly throughout the entire fascia system. What is known in one part of the fascia is known throughout the entire fascia system.

So the fascia is not like the muscles, not like the bones and not like the skin. It is so completely a "different animal" than any other part of our body that it becomes almost a "person within a person" in a whole-being sense. The fascia is a whole being within our being. It's not entirely separate, but it is unique and has its own nature, which I will explore further in a moment.

Suffice it to say that the discussions from Dan, Mike and Rob all seem to resolve around the idea of using the entire fascia system at once in a unified system to increase one's power. And because this increase of power is carried out through this invisible system of connective tissue, it is called "internal power."

Dan seems to be working largely with that and "winding" exercises.

Mike seems to be using the fascia in a similar way but he may miss some elements of the true nature of the fascia. He seems to be working largely from self-taught bases instead of from a real baseline--otherwise, I think he could have explained this central concept more clearly.

Rob/Aunkai seem to be oriented to preparing the frame to support such fascial work. Since it is a subtle effect, the fascial manipulation could gradually break down a body that is not correctly aligned to support those stresses--subtle as they are.

So here it is: picture Morihei Ueshiba standing before you. Imagine him completely nude, standing as he feels comfortable.

Now imagine him with his skin gone, so that we can see the muscles. Now imagine that all the muscles disappear, but the bones and internal organs remain in place, as if the muscles were still there. The blood and vessels remain, the nerves remain and the fascia remain.

Now imagine that the bones are gone and the fascia, blood vessels, internal organs, etc. all remain where they would be as Morihei stands as he feels comfortable.

Now imagine that everything is gone but the fascia, itself, remaining exactly where it was when Morihei stood in whole body.

So now you're looking at only the fascia of Morihei Ueshiba, standing like a man. You will notice that this is not really a "suit" but more something like a sponge, with empty places held inside convolutions of the tissue. This is where the internal organs were held. There are spaces where every muscle would be, so that Morihei's fascia forms something like a hollow man--not a full-body empty suit, but an entire layer of the body's tissues. The internal organs, the muscles and bones and every other part of the human body are embedded in the fascial layer of the body.

So see Morihei's full fascia body, standing before us like a man made of leather, and realize that that tissue is alive in its own right. It has feeling and it is full of ki. And when one part of the fascia feels something, the entire system of the fascia feels it because it is purely connective.

The entire discussion of "this stuff" or "internal mechanics" really involves using that entire fascial being to augment the efforts of the muscles and bones. Most people think of using their muscles to move their bones to execute techniques and this can be enhanced by various exercises to strengthen both muscle and bone.

But since the fascia is not like muscle and cannot be made to contract or expand by sheer will, like a muscle, it will take a lot of deep thought to see just how the fascia system could augment power and just how it could be exercised to do that.

Isn't that the essence of the discussion?

David

Franco
07-26-2007, 04:33 PM
I think that the fascia not only surrounds muscles, but also interpenetrates them.

At least that's what wikipedia says about it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascia)

Deep fascia is the dense fibrous connective tissue that interpenetrates and surrounds the muscles, bones, nerves and blood vessels of the body.

Fascia is an uninterrupted, three-dimensional web of tissue that extends from head to toe, from front to back, from interior to exterior. It is responsible for maintaining structural integrity; for providing support and protection; and acts as a shock absorber.

Deep fascia can contract. What happens during the fight-or-flight response is an example of rapid fascial contraction . In response to a real or imagined threat to the organism, the body responds with a temporary increase in the stiffness of the fascia. Bolstered with tensioned fascia, people are able to perform extraordinary feats of strength and speed under emergency conditions. How fascia contracts is still not well understood...

Mike Sigman
07-26-2007, 05:05 PM
Mike seems to be using the fascia in a similar way but he may miss some elements of the true nature of the fascia. He seems to be working largely from self-taught bases instead of from a real baseline--otherwise, I think he could have explained this central concept more clearly.Gee, David.... I can point you to similar posts by people who suddenly began to see a glimmer of understanding about the same topic. Posts where suddenly they begin to understand for the first time and they understand so well with the first intuitive guess of theirs that they can also tell me that I don't really understand. In fact, the posts I can point you to were made about 10 years ago. Peter Lim comes to mind as a good example of someone who suddenly got a clue and at the same moment decided his clue was far more intelligent than my years of practice, demonstrable skills, etc. I'm simply amazed at how obviously dumb I am to some people. Maybe that's why I'm so picky about who I'll share things with? Go see Dan, David. Enjoy yourself. :D

Regards,

Mike Sigman

David Orange
07-26-2007, 07:30 PM
Gee, David.... I can point you to similar posts by people who suddenly began to see a glimmer of understanding about the same topic. Posts where suddenly they begin to understand for the first time and they understand so well with the first intuitive guess of theirs that they can also tell me that I don't really understand.

Hey, I'm just going by the way you explain what you're doing. It's never been really clear. I just finally noticed the distinction between the muscle sensation and the fascial sensation. I never thought of it as a separate complete system. You obviously have, but why didn't you mention some of the things I posted above? Major things such as the live sensitivity of the entire fascial system and its ability to know instantly as a whole system? Your illustration of the inflatable suit was less than approximate. So I wonder if you've been posting to "share" or to "hint at" things. Or to goad people into mentioning something you've been looking for.

Peter Lim comes to mind as a good example of someone who suddenly got a clue and at the same moment decided his clue was far more intelligent than my years of practice, demonstrable skills, etc.

Well, first things first: what happened to Peter Lim? Second, I don't think that my clue is far more intelligent than your years of practice, but if what you're really trying to do is "share," I'd think you would just make it plain what you're talking about.

I'm simply amazed at how obviously dumb I am to some people.

If you listened more to me, you'd be more aware of that.

Maybe that's why I'm so picky about who I'll share things with?

What are you here for?

Thanks.

David

DH
07-26-2007, 07:42 PM
David
That was kind a' wierd man.
You don't know how I train.
I show people things at their level- not my own. I discuss my own training with only a few of my own people.
You don't know how Ark trains
The video's are surface material for others
You don't know how Mike trains either
He doesn't say squat about his own regimen.

I'm glad you read about fascia and fascial sheeting. But in all honesty..Knowing about it won't get you anywhere. With the right kind of instruction I'll see ya in 5 years, maybe, juuuust maybe you'll have a little something. Without it, you'll be right back here ..talking...about fascia.
Personally, other then laying out a roadmap, I don't talk about it much at the beginning. Steps and progression, steps and progression. And the "winding" I talk about is on different levels. Without starting one, you'll never get to the other. One, method-while being internal- is not so internal as the other. And some winding I've seen is no more internal than dance, pilates or gyrotonics. Which while being good for some things...aint gonna get you anywhere martially.
I am confused why you say it has never been brought up. Its been brought up many, many, times. I don't wan't to interfere with your love fest with Mike, But Mike has brought it up countless times. Its very wierd to hear you ask why he hasn't brought it up. I've made a few posts about it as well and talked about some of the aspects of it as a whole body distribution system. Where -you- been bud?

Mike Sigman
07-26-2007, 08:29 PM
David
That was kind a' wierd man.
You don't know how I train.
I show people things at their level- not my own. I discuss my own training with only a few of my own people.
[snip]I'm glad you read about fascia and fascial sheeting. But in all honesty..Knowing about it won't get you anywhere. With the right kind of instruction I'll see ya in 5 years, maybe, juuuust maybe you'll have a little something. Without it, you'll be right back here ..talking...about fascia.
Personally, other then laying out a roadmap, I don't talk about it much at the beginning. You know, this is the kind of horn-blowing crap that I find objectionable, Dan. You have never been able (and I say that with justification) to answer straightforward questions about skills, you've never given any direct and functional explanations of how to do things, your posts tend to be more self-brag about where you are and what you can do, and so forth. People I know who know you describe the fact that you have some jin skills but it's pretty muscular. Insofar as you knowing stuff that's 10-years down the road from someone about fascia and qi training, that's something you might need think about before you post it publicly... it's harder than you think and you can't just BS your way into expertise.

Again, bear in mind that I couldn't care less about your own claims about yourself, as long as you don't have a long-term negative effect on someone else. As someone noted on Aikido Journal, your posts look like advertisements for Dan Harden. What I object to... or perhaps it's more like "I feel it necessary to point out that you've never indicated anything in your posts that warrants the claims of multi-year expertise" (in fact, I hear that most of your stuff and revelations are pretty recent).... is that same caution I'd point out to any really searching people when someone talks more about themselves than the subject at hand. Give us some real facts and it'll change that part of the discussion.

The main point I object to is this idea that you're the solution to peoples' problems in an oblique put-down manner. David, regardless of my personal take on him, is still someone who is just as capable of learning things as you are. Talking to him like you're on some lordly level of accomplishment is simply over the top. You're a beginner. You're figuring some of this stuff out for yourself and you really didn't get that much from DR. Good for you. But keep the ego in check and see if perhaps you can make a valid discussion around what you substantively can express about the subject and how to do it.... not around what great skills you have in relation to people who are honestly just trying to get information.

If you have something substantive that you can say, either to assist people or to counter my inference that you don't really know much, why don't you do so? In principle, David is going in the right direction. Whether it's important that you need to insert your own great heights of accomplishment into the discussion is questionable. Tell us what David should really know, etc., what he should look for, information sources, how to start, etc. I.e., try to address the issue dispassionately and without so much noise about how full your cup is.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

David Orange
07-26-2007, 08:38 PM
David
That was kind a' wierd man.
You don't know how I train.

Well, that's what I'm trying to ascertain--make sure I'm on the same page, at least in general.

You don't know how Ark trainsThe video's are surface material for others

Most of my ideas about Ark come from the Aunkai website, where there is a good bit of presentation and explanation. I just get the sense that the "structure" is made for balancing the whole systems of bone, muscle, fascia, etc. Again, I made these statements to get some responses and think about them.

I'm glad you read about fascia and fascial sheeting. But in all honesty..Knowing about it won't get you anywhere.

Well, I didn't read about it. I became aware of it through direct experience while doing Feldenkrais. I recognized the difference between the muscle relaxing and the fascia opening and I came to several recognitions of how the fascia works as a whole unit.

With the right kind of instruction I'll see ya in 5 years, maybe, juuuust maybe you'll have a little something.

I have to say, I feel better, already. I don't feel like a super martial man yet, but I'm thinking about how it all fits together.

Personally, other then laying out a roadmap, I don't talk about it much at the beginning.

What kind of roadmap do you lay out at the beginning?

...the "winding" I talk about is on different levels. Without starting one, you'll never get to the other. One, method-while being internal- is not so internal as the other. And some winding I've seen is no more internal than dance, pilates or gyrotonics.

Well I am interested in what you mean by "winding."

I am confused why you say it has never been brought up. Its been brought up many, many, times....Mike has brought it up countless times. Its very wierd to hear you ask why he hasn't brought it up. I've made a few posts about it as well and talked about some of the aspects of it as a whole body distribution system. Where -you- been bud?

Your recent references to a whole-body distribution system came right back to me when I felt the different systems working and I realized what you meant, then. I also realized what Mike was refering to in the "suit under the skin" reference. B.K. Frantzis also contributed to that recognition with comments he has made on the subject. But I don't think any of you has really pointed out
kind of unified system that it really is. Following Mike's "suit" comments, your reference to a load distribution system (and, I think, a general muscular tonus moderator) did point me there. But it was in Feldenkrais that I actually felt that system in operation and sensed more directly its nature.

Thanks.

David

Mike Sigman
07-26-2007, 08:38 PM
Hey, I'm just going by the way you explain what you're doing. It's never been really clear. To you. Some things have been clear to other people; you don't represent the consensus of views on this or any other forum.
I just finally noticed the distinction between the muscle sensation and the fascial sensation. I never thought of it as a separate complete system. You obviously have, but why didn't you mention some of the things I posted above? I posted some pretty important information (well, my *opinion* of what is important, anyway) for people trying to find out the best way to get started and the general perspective that helps in the startup. What do you want? A textbook suited to you personally? My apologies that I haven't given enough, in your opinion. Sorry I didn't do it the way you wanted me to. And thanks for the thanks. :rolleyes:
Major things such as the live sensitivity of the entire fascial system and its ability to know instantly as a whole system? Your illustration of the inflatable suit was less than approximate. So I wonder if you've been posting to "share" or to "hint at" things. Or to goad people into mentioning something you've been looking for. How about if you still don't quite understand, but you're trying to fault what I've said in the past based on your current, incomplete understanding? Consider all sides of it. No, no.... better yet, insult me into giving you information; that always works. Not. ;) Well, first things first: what happened to Peter Lim? Second, I don't think that my clue is far more intelligent than your years of practice, but if what you're really trying to do is "share," I'd think you would just make it plain what you're talking about. Sorry my contributions, which you've ignored in the past, now don't quite meet your expectations, David. Good luck in finding people to show you things using your rather unique approach. You'll find that you get just what you pay for. What are you here for? Er........ to please you and Mochizuki? :D

Regards,

Mike Sigman

DH
07-26-2007, 09:50 PM
Reading you is funnier than watching stand up, Mike.
You... would caution others about me?? You've been doing that for years now. Go for it! Here, let me help. "No one should call me, or come here, or ask me to show them anything. Go elsewhere.
As for me trying to "B.S my way into expertise?" Well thanks, Mike, But I think you sling enough B.S. to cover any 100 martial artists. Only one of us has videos, articles, seminars, thousands of posts. They speak volumes about both your intentions and your ego.
I've said it before I'll say it again "Everyone can go wherever they want and train with anyone they can and make up their own minds.

It's always interesting to see you engage in so many personal attacks, while you cry foul at the slightest hint others aim your way.. Many have gotten wise to your baiting and inconsistencies.

Here's your own advice-just now given to David- which I'll address to you.
"How about if you still don't quite understand, but you're trying to fault what I've said in the past based on your .... understanding? Consider all sides of it. No, no.... better yet, insult me into giving you information; that always works. Not.:D

Mike Sigman
07-26-2007, 10:08 PM
Gee, Dan... somehow I knew you weren't going to post anything about "fascia", etc., to make it clear that you really know this stuff. I've done everything but but "double-dog dare you" to write some actual substantive "how it works" stuff over the last couple of years and you have NEVER been able to do it. You go to personalities every time. If that's the best you can do, you don't qualify to tell people how many years behind you they are. Here's another good topic... tell David (and others) something useful; not how far behind you everyone is. No tickee, no washee.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

DH
07-26-2007, 10:47 PM
Gee, Dan... .....You go to personalities every time.
Regards,
Mike Sigman

Sigh..you mean like this, Mike?


......this is the kind of horn-blowing crap
.....it's harder than you think and you can't just BS your way into expertise.
.....as long as you don't have a long-term negative effect on someone else.
.....your posts look like advertisements for Dan Harden.
.... you're on some lordly level of accomplishment is simply over the top.
.....what great skills you have
......insert your own great heights of accomplishment into the discussion is questionable.
......much noise about how full your cup is.
Regards,
Mike Sigman

I think you should try and contribute something to the discussion, Mike rather then display your never-ending need to try and convince people you are ahead of them every chance you get. Like in the above comment ".....it's harder than you think and you can't just BS your way into expertise."
You're a self-admitted amateur and researcher, a little humility would do -you- well,;)

Aran Bright
07-27-2007, 01:13 AM
The entire discussion of "this stuff" or "internal mechanics" really involves using that entire fascial being to augment the efforts of the muscles and bones. Most people think of using their muscles to move their bones to execute techniques and this can be enhanced by various exercises to strengthen both muscle and bone.


I think your on to something there.

The only thing that I would like to add is that many anatomist think that there are more nerve receptors in the fascial tissues than there are in the muscle tissues. What I infer from this is that if you focus your attention on the fascial tissues you can gain more feedback on the movements of your body than from the muscle or bony tissues.

Principles about relaxation may have a lot to do with awareness of the fascial tissues.

Just a few thoughts,

Aran

Mike Sigman
07-27-2007, 08:18 AM
You're a self-admitted amateur and researcher, a little humility would do -you- well,;)Well, there you go, then.... I'm not putting people down or listing great things I can do in posts, Dan, so it's pretty unclear what you're trying to say. I'd suggest though that a bigger number of people have watched your posts over the years and what you have to say about yourself than you think. Don't talk about you. Don't talk about me. Talk about how to do the issue. Notice how I keep suggesting this time and time again. The fact that you can't really do an intelligent commentary seems to be fairly well established.... ergo, my point that I was making seems to be justified: you are not in a position to tell other people how many years you are ahead of them, so it's rude and beside the point to do so.

So... again.... here's a great topic for you to give David a reply with some basics, just to show that you really know the subject. Let's see what you can do with it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

DH
07-27-2007, 09:20 AM
Well, there you go, then.... I'm not putting people down or listing great things I can do in posts, Dan, so it's pretty unclear what you're trying to say. I'd suggest though that a bigger number of people have watched your posts over the years and what you have to say about yourself than you think. Don't talk about you. Don't talk about me. Talk about how to do the issue. Notice how I keep suggesting this time and time again. The fact that you can't really do an intelligent commentary seems to be fairly well established.... ergo, my point that I was making seems to be justified: you are not in a position to tell other people how many years you are ahead of them, so it's rude and beside the point to do so.

So... again.... here's a great topic for you to give David a reply with some basics, just to show that you really know the subject. Let's see what you can do with it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

I have replied in the past and just recently was thanked for some of the tips- go find em. I continue to share in person.
While you're on to talking about personalities ...again. I will say you are steadfast in telling people they don't know and then insinuating you are ahead of them and can OK their information or their work. Calling me for doing the same things is just hilarious. Your just fly by the seat of your pants when you post dontcha? Other than historical background you have never once given out anything but hints, at rather simple, basic, information. By your own standards, we'll just assume that's all you're capable of.
Why don't you focus your attention and write something meangingful about how to's, to help people out instead of just once again going to personalities. ;)

Ron Tisdale
07-27-2007, 09:52 AM
Yikes.

Not getting into the Mike and Dan show. Either one could kick my butt.

David, both Mike and Dan have posts archived on aikido journal, e-budo and probably here talking about the facial tissue stuff, the body suit, etc. It was one of the first things Mike talked to me about in email over 2 years ago.

I still can't **do** squat.

Best,
Ron

Mike Sigman
07-27-2007, 09:55 AM
Gee, I just looked. No one has removed any of my posts with pictures, diagrams, instructions, etc. The closest thing I find to any "explanation" from you is more about doing exercises, but doesn't explain the mechanics of how the internal strength components work at all. Heck, I could teach in great detail how to do a Tai Chi form or push-hands and still never tell anyone how the internal strength components are done or developed. This isn't a very deep problem with your posts, Dan, that takes forever to figure out... you have not described how to do any aspect of internal strength. And your comments that I haven't shown anything are blatantly offset by the posts that are still available. Try arguing facts and assume that the reading audience is smarter than children, please.

But again you've posted and answered nothing. You indicate that people like David are years behind you, particularly in the breath/fascia work. Did you forget that it's only been a few months since you posted you were just looking into these things yourself? In less than 6 months you're telling people it will take them years to arrive near you. How does that work? And if it's true, BTW and once again, all you need to do is pick some area of the discussion and explain it clearly. See if you can put me on the spot, Dan.... but most of all, see if you can for once discuss the topic in a how to mode; don't confuse "here's an exercise we do" with "here's how the mechanics work".

All the Best.

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
07-27-2007, 10:13 AM
David, both Mike and Dan have posts archived on aikido journal, e-budo and probably here talking about the facial tissue stuff, the body suit, etc. It was one of the first things Mike talked to me about in email over 2 years ago.
Actually, there are archived posts on the old Neijia List with some of my commentaries from the early-mid 1990's. I can grab a couple pretty easily and I'll be happy to do it if it will help prod Dan into discussing his facts and his sources. I'm getting pretty clear indications that some of Dan's implied koryu sources don't acknowledge him, so the sources question (in light of his own claims) is important.

Incidentally, Dan may try to state that I'm "self-taught", but I'm not. I've had a number of bona fide teachers over a number of years and I'll be glad to name them, what I learned from them, etc., if Dan wants to do the same.

Recently Dan claimed to have been talking about the fascia aspect 10 years ago. I don't believe it. It's not discussed in any Japanese sources that I know of; what little there is is oral-transmission stuff and you have to do more than attend a few workshops to get that. I'd like to see a bona fide source. I'm getting kind of curious why Dan's vocabulary and buzzwords really seem so recent, so this would be a good way to support his contention that he's known and done the fascia stuff for 10 years, yet he indicated he's just trying to figure out the breath (fascia) stuff recently. This stuff is beginning to remind me of one of my old favorite books, "Dan of a Thousand Faces". ;)

Best way to discuss all of these things? Lay out your cards. If you know how to do something, you can describe it well. Period. If you're just feeling your way around, you'll have fuzzy descriptions.

Someone wants to hide the fact that he's gotten a little information and is desperately trying to act like he has a lot... isn't that the very thing that got so many people into trouble in the first place in western m.a.'s? And isn't that the reason that the knowledge of these basics got so hindered in western martial arts?

Dan, your "I gotta keep the sacred secrets of my koryu" stuff doesn't fly and hasn't flown, with a number of people, for some time. If you want to discuss ki, kokyu, (fascia is an inextricable part of all that), then do so. Deal a card and quit just talking about what a great card-player you are.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

ChrisHein
07-27-2007, 11:07 AM
I'm just glad all this is getting out. It's been pissing me off for months now.

DH
07-27-2007, 11:28 AM
Pretty desperate for information eh Mike? Spending all this time and effort. You got an ego as big as the outdoors man. I read the Neijia list in its entirety and other than being a perfect ass there too, I read no "great information" from you or anyone else. All I read was argument over approach and terminology. I did read where you stated you deliberately goad and chastise people to get them to talk and give information. I have it saved somewhere.

How about contributing to the thread hopefully in a better way than you did in the other breath thread ..telling folks to draw in with the dantien and then...relax. Talk about misinformation.
Yeah you, If you want to try and teach and talk about fascia on the internet knock yourself out.

Mike Sigman
07-27-2007, 11:44 AM
How about contributing to the thread hopefully in a better way than you did in the other breath thread ..telling folks to draw in with the dantien and then...relax. Talk about misinformation. Perfect. As good a factual issue as any. Except show me what I said (give us the exact post... something you've been known to run from when asked in the past, BTW) and then, when you've laid out the quote, tell me exactly what is wrong with what I said. That's how you do it, Dan. Good start.... now follow through factually.
I read was argument over approach and terminology. I did read where you stated you deliberately goad and chastise people to get them to talk and give information. I have it saved somewhere. Like established, reputable teachers with known reputations, Dan... if I want real information. If I want to see if some guy is as good as he claims he is, I'll do it, too... but not because I think they have any real information. But let's see your facts as in the above "call".


Regards,

Mike Sigman

Timothy WK
07-27-2007, 12:52 PM
Sooo... moving back to the original question.

David, I'm not sure the issue is quite as simple as it sounds in your post. I'm not really qualified to answer your questions, but I'll share my experience.

I'm not sure that the fascia is inherently "unified". To begin with, there are different types and/or layers of fascia that serve different functions. I don't believe anyone knows for sure exactly what's happening inside our bodies. Are we only activating one function in one layer/type, or are we accessing different functions throughout different types/layers? If so, how do these different layers/types interact?

Also, my experience is that whole-body movement doesn't just happen. It has to be developed. It *seems* from my beginner experience and from watching the other students in my class, that when ki-/fasica-based movement begins to manifest, it's still fairly localized. It seems to take a little bit before the movement connects to other parts of the body.

For example, I can move my fingers without utilizing muscle. It doesn't take much to feel this movement in the forearms. But it's taken a little time to begin feeling the connection/tension in my upper arms and shoulders. (And I assume it will continue to "grow" into my back & chest.)

It is possible, of course, that this movement is actually unified/connected, and it's just too weak at the moment to feel. I can only talk about how I feel.

I've also received conflicting information on whether the fascia can contract on its own or not. I need to do some more talking with one of doctor friends.

DH
07-27-2007, 06:41 PM
Like established, reputable teachers with known reputations, Dan... if I want real information.
Regards,
Mike Sigman
Well I agree. Which is why, as many have already noted, I don't pursue information from you...the way you have from me.

Try to constrain yourself to talking (down) to others, Mike. We don't get along and our interactions do not bring out the best of either of us.
Good luck in your search and training pursuits.

Mike Sigman
07-27-2007, 06:52 PM
I don't pursue information from you...the way you have from me. In other words, you don't have any information. Mine's on record. Yours is actually on record, too, but you seem to think that if only a few people know your background you're safe. You need to quit hanging around with known bozo's.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
07-27-2007, 07:29 PM
Wait, wait, Dan.... you know so much. I want to learn from you. Please post some nugget that's out of reach for a poor mortal like me. Then let's bet everything I own on whether I can blow it out of the water. ;) Bet???????????????

Regards,

Mike "Trying to be as humble as Dan" Sigman

Aran Bright
07-27-2007, 10:54 PM
Sooo... moving back to the original question.

David, I'm not sure the issue is quite as simple as it sounds in your post. I'm not really qualified to answer your questions, but I'll share my experience.

I'm not sure that the fascia is inherently "unified". To begin with, there are different types and/or layers of fascia that serve different functions. I don't believe anyone knows for sure exactly what's happening inside our bodies. Are we only activating one function in one layer/type, or are we accessing different functions throughout different types/layers? If so, how do these different layers/types interact?

Also, my experience is that whole-body movement doesn't just happen. It has to be developed. It *seems* from my beginner experience and from watching the other students in my class, that when ki-/fasica-based movement begins to manifest, it's still fairly localized. It seems to take a little bit before the movement connects to other parts of the body.

For example, I can move my fingers without utilizing muscle. It doesn't take much to feel this movement in the forearms. But it's taken a little time to begin feeling the connection/tension in my upper arms and shoulders. (And I assume it will continue to "grow" into my back & chest.)

It is possible, of course, that this movement is actually unified/connected, and it's just too weak at the moment to feel. I can only talk about how I feel.

I've also received conflicting information on whether the fascia can contract on its own or not. I need to do some more talking with one of doctor friends.

Hi Timothy,

I would try to milk as much information from your doctor friends as you can but the problem is that there is a gap in what is generally understood by anatomists, doctors and such and what can actually be done by martial artists, healers etc. I am sure that there are explanations for eveything but relying on information from the mainstream doesn't fill in all the gaps.

If I can do a little finger pointing at Mike's explanations I have trouble swallowing it sometimes from a scientific point of view, but from a martial arts point of view they make a lot of sense, even over the internet. In a sense we do need our own langauge that can be explained as well as possible through anatomical terms but know that they don't quite match up.

My two bob,

Aran

Timothy WK
07-30-2007, 08:08 AM
I spoke with my doctor friend briefly the other night. They conceded that yes, it's possible for the fascia to contract, but it doesn't normally. They said it was one of those situations where doctors don't understand why it would ever need to contract.

I explained the martial art rational, and it's advantages for martial movement, and they said said it made intuitive sense, though they couldn't confirm or deny it.

Mike (or anybody), I'm curious about when and how the theory about the fascia developed. Can you shed any light on it?

Mike Sigman
07-30-2007, 09:01 AM
I spoke with my doctor friend briefly the other night. They conceded that yes, it's possible for the fascia to contract, but it doesn't normally. They said it was one of those situations where doctors don't understand why it would ever need to contract.

I explained the martial art rational, and it's advantages for martial movement, and they said said it made intuitive sense, though they couldn't confirm or deny it.

Mike (or anybody), I'm curious about when and how the theory about the fascia developed. Can you shed any light on it?The oldest available writings on developing ki-strength in China refer to the usaged of connective-tissue/fascia/tendons, etc. So the fascia part of the discussion probably went back 2-6 thousand years, at least. Yang Jwing Ming put out a book that contains some of the oldest comments, but the translations are fuzzy (because it's hard for anyone to understand the old characters and idioms). I think the book is a good one to have for the library of someone really interested in a glimpse at the old references, althought they don't tell you much and YJM's added commentaries are always suspect (IMO), so take them with a grain of salt.

My wife is a doctor (an orthopedic surgeon) and she doesn't have much trouble with the concepts being offshoots of things shes knows about anatomy and physiology, even though they're not what she learned in medical school. Although the concepts are a little odd, there's nothing contradictory between these developments, as far as I know.

FWIW

Mike

Best.

Mike

DH
07-30-2007, 09:48 AM
Tim
If you are interested in the Japanese perspective look for references to training involving breathwork or "breath-power". You will hear the term breath-work brought up here or there by the some of the old guard. There is a reason breathwork is connected to fascia work. Also look for references to "long muscle." There are two schools I know of which used this terminology for fascia. It showed up again recently at Aikido journal in an older article some forumite referred to in a link. I'd have to find it. There is a discussion of bone thickening and skin toughening as well in another article by a guy who trained DR. I think he talked about a broken arm and an X-ray showing thickening. For other references you have also a picture of Takeda's son doing In/yo ho breathwork exercises in a recent book out. It only gives a cursory overview of "feeling" the hands being drawn-in and then pushed-out. Naturally, it contains no details of; what, is doing what, and why breathing is involved in the first place. Good luck researching though, a friend of mine is in Japan right now training, and decided to ask some detailed questions about some things. It didn't go well. I suspect these things will almost always be held close to the vest, denied, and generally not spoken about. As Sagawa said "Teaching these things to foreigners would give them an advantage." How pervasive is it? Who knows. Its very existence gets denied.
I think you might have better luck talkng to PT's, message therapists, and bodywork people than Docs. They see what fascia does on the recovery end of things day-to-day from injury and lack of use, and how hard it is to rework it at a natural level. Stands to reason it is connected and it is tough stuff. So strengthening it and making it work as a whole interconnected system seems rational on the surface-pun intended.

Timothy WK
07-30-2007, 12:54 PM
Obviously these techniques are really old, work, and have some sort of biological basis. What I was curious about was how the current, modern understanding developed. (That being, that ki/jin/kokyu/what-ever-you-call-it -related actions are powered by or at least involve the fascia.) Even if ancient manuscripts mention "connective tissue", I doubt they had the same concept of the fascia that we have today.

When did the leap from "long muscle" to "fascia" happen?

Is this only an issue here in the West? Is this idea accepted by the medical establishment in China?

Have there been any scientific studies to test this idea (even if it's in Chinese or Japanese or whatever)?

Thanks! I don't doubt all the fascia talk, I'm just curious how this understanding developed.

David Orange
07-30-2007, 01:19 PM
I spoke with my doctor friend briefly the other night. They conceded that yes, it's possible for the fascia to contract, but it doesn't normally. They said it was one of those situations where doctors don't understand why it would ever need to contract.

Well, this is why it was so startling to me to realize that "the leather man," or the whole system of fascia was the central idea in these discussions. I've had some experiences there that immediately made me see vast potential in using that system.

However, I think we have to look elsewhere than muscles or "muscle-like" contractions or relaxing to see the potential for martial application in the fascia.

If someone said, "You have to use your eyes in a fight," you wouldn't think of contracting them or hitting with them. So think of a system that is radically different from the muscle system: how would you use that to support a fighting situation?

Recognizing that the discussions were about how to employ the very unique system of the fascia was what excited me so much. The fascia could even be called the ura of the muscles--the muscles being the omote of human strength.

First of all, the fascia is very sensitive. Think of sliding into a tub of hot water--the rush of tingling warmth that spreads throughout your body. That sensation spreads through the fascia, I believe.

In my Zero Degree teaching, I grab a student's wrist and ask if they can feel it in their foot. At first, they don't notice it, but usually, on the second try and thereafter, they notice it. The fascia has the capacity for full-body awareness--almost instant awareness throughout the body of something that happens elsewhere on the body.

The fascia thus can conduct the ki of the body pretty much instantly from one part of the body to another to focus there.

So I can see that using that system has the potential to augment fighting skills incredibly, but we have to think of it in a way radically different from the way we use muscles.

I remember Dan's recent post about how, having worked so much on his own structure, he could "feel" another person's structure "on contact". He could "feel" "the holes" in their structure and lead their movement to "fall into" one of those "holes".

Well, anyone with a good bit of aikido can do that with movement, but Dan was talking about doing this with almost no movement at all. Now I think I understand "conceptually" what he's talking about. So I would begin thinking about this idea as a matter of improving one's own awareness to improve body structure and maintain that structure with movement. Then it improves sensitivity to the other person's movement and structure (in an almost backward order--or a mirror image) so that someone like Dan can "lead" that movement in such a way that the other person compromises his own structure as he applies effort.

Dan has indicated something about the kinds of exercises he uses to develop these skills, but I think we can do more to approach him by immediately getting rid of the idea that we are trying to "flex" the fascia or use it like muscles (Dan's last post notwithstanding--there is a direct relation between the muscles and fascia, but it seems that the full fascial system works with very different potentials.).

Best to all.

David

Lee Salzman
07-30-2007, 01:31 PM
I have to wonder, is the "fascia" explanation maybe chasing ghosts? I don't mean to question the work, only the explanation of it.

There is a LOT that can be trained with plain old muscles and the nervous system, for instance:

1. Get every muscle from your toes, fingers, wrists, neck, ankles, forearms, calves, various rotators of the shoulders and hips, the abdomen, as well as all the major extensors/flexors involved in every movement, and working in biomechanically efficient lines and rotation around axes.

2. Get them all activating simultaneously/instantaneously (without any preparation or delay) and with equal intensity.

3. While keeping all of the above, get them activating to the maximum of the juice your poor little brain can output, or until you feel like something is going to tear off.

4. Keeping all of the above, get them to activate and then release in an instant, like an electric shock. Two aspects: minimizing transition trime from relaxation to tension, and from tension to relaxation.

5. Keeping all of the above, get them to rapidly change direction, to the point where the whole body is switching many many times a second.

6. While moving at any speed, anywhere from slow to fast, keep all of the activation, without letting it break, or any part merely clench without useful motion, up to the limits of what the muscles can contract to.

7. Practice changing movement direction in response to different visual, tactile, or perceptive targets, to the point where your brain can identify a new target and respond with purposeful movements many times a second.

So where does fascia fit in above and beyond this?

David Orange
07-30-2007, 01:44 PM
There is a LOT that can be trained with plain old muscles and the nervous system, for instance:

1. Get every muscle from your toes, fingers, wrists, neck, ankles, forearms, calves, various rotators of the shoulders and hips, the abdomen, as well as all the major extensors/flexors involved in every movement, and working in biomechanically efficient lines and rotation around axes.

2. Get them all activating simultaneously/instantaneously (without any preparation or delay) and with equal intensity.

I think that the fascia must be very useful in the two things you describe above in that it can transmit instant awareness among all the areas of the body. Dan has refered to it as a "load distributor system," I think--meaning that it can diffuse impacts by spreading them through the system and that it can sort of "govern" the work of the entire muscle system at once. I think it also can "manage" the efforts of the whole muscle system so that each muscle contributes the optimal effort to the whole effort.

In any case, if your body has an entire different system, why leave that out of the equation if you're looking for "total" effectiveness?

4. Keeping all of the above, get them to activate and then release in an instant, like an electric shock. Two aspects: minimizing transition trime from relaxation to tension, and from tension to relaxation.

If my above ideas are correct, the fascia would also facilitate those efforts.

Since my sudden recognition the other day, I've been having a pretty good time working with a new level of feeling. I've also been thinking a lot about "how" you could apply this system and a lot of what has been said on these forums has come back to me. Also, there is a lot about the fascia system and the nerves connected to it that has not been discussed at all, including emotional states and involuntary responses, that I think would have a lot to do with managing stresses.

Best wishes.

David

Lee Salzman
07-30-2007, 01:52 PM
David, the question I was posing was whether the fascia really need to be fundamentally involved in the explanation of those phenomenon, and how they are trained? Not necessarily could fascia conceivably augment them, but rather, in an Occam's razor sense, is fascia necessary to explain them at all?

Mike Sigman
07-30-2007, 01:54 PM
So where does fascia fit in above and beyond this?Frankly, I don't see any point in discussing what is a best a hypothetical topic with most of the people on this forum. We do extended discussions on this stuff on the QiJin forum (and previous forums), but since most people can't even do simple jin, the fascia, qi/ki, muscle-tendon theory/channels, acupuncture relationships, etc., are probably just exercises in typing on this forum.

Let me note again that one of my cautions is that this stuff has levels of skills and often people think that the level they're at is all there is to know so they use the buzzwords indiscriminately. I'd suggest that people take every expert's opinion and every "epiphany" with a grain of salt. In my perspective, the most correct approach to Aikido is actually going to be the soft approach that Tohei espouses or a related version. The harder approaches do indeed use "ki" and "kokyu-power", but O-Sensei apparently preferred the very soft approach (and he says that clearly), so anyone starting out on this road needs to bear that in mind, IMO. And needs to explore the why's before too much is committed on yet another tangential path, even if it's somewhat more informed than just normal strength.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

David Orange
07-30-2007, 02:06 PM
David, the question I was posing was whether the fascia really need to be fundamentally involved in the explanation of those phenomenon, and how they are trained? Not necessarily could fascia conceivably augment them, but rather, in an Occam's razor sense, is fascia necessary to explain them at all?

Without the fascia, the muscle would flop around loosely (assuming there was still a nerve fiber attached to it). And I do think that the fascial system enables the whole muscle system to share information (in a manner of speaking). So I do think we'd be leaving out a lot of important information to omit the fascia from the discussion.

Let me note again that one of my cautions is that this stuff has levels of skills and often people think that the level they're at is all there is to know so they use the buzzwords indiscriminately. I'd suggest that people take every expert's opinion and every "epiphany" with a grain of salt.

I have to agree with you there, Mike. I certainly don't think I know much about using fascia in martial arts. The feeling I have is of having opened the door to a huge warehouse where I can see thousands of displays on matters I'm very interested in, but I have not yet even walked into the room to start studying the exhibits.

Still, my recognition came with a sense that it would be very easy to go in the wrong direction in trying to develop the skills in question and that, without guidance, severe injury and lasting bad health could easily result.

Which, even more than not wanting the information to get into "the wrong hands," could be why the subject is not more openly explained in all the books that deal with it.

Best wishes.

David

Mike Sigman
07-30-2007, 02:27 PM
Which, even more than not wanting the information to get into "the wrong hands," could be why the subject is not more openly explained in all the books that deal with it.This stuff gives an unmistakeable edge, no question. So in ancient times, you didn't show everyone those things which gave you a survival edge. That was "the wrong hands" in those days, but "the wrong hands" idea is morphing somewhat in these days of guns, etc. My idea of the "wrong hands" has to do with the emphasis that there is always more information about these skills that you didn't know... so the guy who stops at any stage (often as soon as he declares he's teaching the subject in some way) and declares that he has arrived and is a "teacher" is often the guy I have in mind as "the wrong hands". But only for the reason that he's doing a disservice to his students, etc. I actually have some pretty good information-exchange conversations on other forums with guys who I don't personally care for, but they have knowledge and they're not into playing a role as a teacher. So they're not what I would call "in the wrong hands", if you see what I mean.

Each level of knowledge is only the entryway to the next level of knowledge. Anyone who is arrogant enough to point out the lowly level of people below him is the sort of person I don't want to tell anything, frankly. He appears too much to be into these things for self-aggrandizement and not enough for the pure chase of the knowledge. Role players need not apply. ;)

Best.

Mike

Lee Salzman
07-30-2007, 02:44 PM
Without the fascia, the muscle would flop around loosely (assuming there was still a nerve fiber attached to it). And I do think that the fascial system enables the whole muscle system to share information (in a manner of speaking). So I do think we'd be leaving out a lot of important information to omit the fascia from the discussion.

Sure, they are of course an important part of the muscular system. But by analogy, look at the mitochrondria. Without them, we'd be corpses. They can even be trained individually in certain aspects. And at the high levels of sports, drugs that enhance their function are essential to stay competitive. But would training only the functions of the mitochrondria result in complete athleticism? Now, surely knowing about the mitochondria would inform how one went about their athletic training, but would it decide the entirety of their athletic training? Would it be the underlying theory of how they trained... everything?

So, in practical terms, is isolating out one structural component of the muscle, while ignoring the other aspects of the contractile machinery, useful as an overarching strategy for the practice of martial arts? Would it optimize the performance of the whole system? ... Or is there something more at work here (and being worked on) than simply focusing on fascia can explain? Can it provide me with a useful predictive theory of how to measure and train these aspects?

Mike Sigman
07-30-2007, 02:54 PM
So, in practical terms, is isolating out one structural component of the muscle, while ignoring the other aspects of the contractile machinery, useful as an overarching strategy for the practice of martial arts? Would it optimize the performance of the whole system?Without the fascia component, you can't really do the "whole-body" thing. Without the whole-body approach, the jin advantages don't appear. It's a complex subject that goes much deeper than this, but understanding the "whole-body" part is a fair contribution so that people can begin to see the relationship between the qi/ki/fascia and the jin/kokyu-ryoku aspects.

FWIW

Mike

David Orange
07-30-2007, 03:26 PM
...is isolating out one structural component of the muscle, while ignoring the other aspects of the contractile machinery, useful as an overarching strategy for the practice of martial arts? Would it optimize the performance of the whole system?

That's the point--to realize that our bodies are made of interacting systems. It's easy to recognize the function of the heart/lungs and muscles, plus the eyes and ears, balance, etc., without ever noticing or factoring in the functions of the fascia system. In previous discussions, I've not recognized that 1) the discussion was about an entire system of fascia; or 2) that this was the same system I've had experience with in completely unrelated areas.

When I made both those recognitions, then it occurred to me that this system had to play an important part in all martial arts. But we immediately hit the question of exactly how to apply this system's functions and "sense" tends to tell us that it's by some kind of direct willful control of the fascia as through tensing/relaxing and using it to "hit" the other guy. My purpose in this thread is mostly to think out loud about 1) the nature of the fascial system and 2) the "potential" ways that that system could contribute to martial strength.

We can check out all the books (Emei Baguazhang, by Liang Shou-Yu with Yang Jwing-Ming and Wu Wen-Ching (?) has some interesting information); you can look at the well-known systems of qigong; you can look at these forums; and you can experiment--the last being interesting but potentially very dangerous.

As I said in an early post, I came to the recognition of "the leather man" through Feldenkrais practice. I had a "crick" in my back from working on Quicken, updating several months of bank transactions and receipts. So I lay down on the bed and went through the small Feldenkrais movements, and when I put my attention to my left pectorals and willed them to "open", I felt the warm rush of relaxation flow from the pectorals into my left arm/shoulder/bicep. And I suddenly realized that this was not muscle relaxation that I felt--at least not entirely: a lot of it was fascia "opening" or "releasing". At the same time, I realized that the fascia goes throughout the body and that it's pretty well completely connected and basically unified.

Two related things: I spent over $2,000.00 having a full course of Rolfing treatments in Tokyo between about 1990 and 1992. I had the deep-pressure treatment over my whole body, feet, ankles, calves, knees, all the way up to my head. And in fact, when they get to your head, they stick their finger up your nose and massage the fascia of the face!!!!!!!! They take pictures of you before and after each session, but they have to tell you how to stand and align yourself. And if your attention wanders, you will automatically return to your habitual way of standing. So Rolfing had that limitation and just a few weeks after completing the whole course, I got a bad back injury. So while I had a lot of experience with fascia there, it didn't teach me anything, really, about how to interact with the fascia. It didn't teach me that the fascia is anything other than purely connective tissue that could work just as well "dead" as "alive," so I just thought of that tissue as being insensate and beyond any willful influence, so I never thought much about it.

Second related issue: I had a hernia. This thing started in about the late 1970s, looking like a pea under my skin--which was tight as a drum back then. The doctor told me it was "a piece of fat" under my skin. I couldn't figure out how it got there and he offered no explanation. Over the years, it gradually grew and I went to doctors again and again and asked about it--maybe three or four times. They all said it was "nothing." So what could I do? I went to Japan in 1990 and by that time, if I were wearing a t-shirt, you could see a lump on my stomach. But I worked out strenuously in karate, judo, aikido and sword. I got punched and kicked in the stomach and whenever I did judo, people's hips were banging into my stomach, etc., etc. But since the lump didn't rupture, I just kept on. I got my black belt in judo with that lump. I came back from Japan in 1995 and went on with life. I had other people look at the lump and they told me it was "nothing," "fat" or a "cyst." Finally, in 2002 or 2003, I really got after my doctor to tell me what this was. He sent me to a surgeon, who confirmed that it was a hernia. A tiny hole had opened between two of my abdominal muscles and this tissue had oozed out from inside the abdomen and was held in by the skin over the hole. The surgeon operated, pushed the tissue back into the hole and unfurled a plastic screen on the inside to keep the tissue from coming out again. It was a very small hole.

Anyway, after the surgery, I felt a dull aching around my midsection and realized that all that tissue was aching from having been pushed through that hole for all those years and sqeezed with all the abdominal contractions I'd been doing--thousands of crunches, hanging straight-leg lifts, etc., plus when I punched and kicked and someone slammed his hips into my gut to do ogoshi or such techniques. But what was aching after the surgery?

Well, there is the abdominal wall, with fascia, then a layer of fat, then, I think, more fascia, then the internal organs, that are covered with fascia. So what had oozed out of this hole was, in large part, fascial tissue, which is full of nerve endings. And after the surgery, I could tell a difference in my whole body. The relief of that squeezing of the fascial tissue was perceptible throughout my body because the fascia of the whole body is connected and shares information. So if you're going to share awareness between muscles, I think, that awareness has to move through the fascia....

Doing Feldenkrais that day, I recognized that that was the tissue they were discussing on the internal power threads. I realized that this tissue is not muscle and could not be used as muscle. And I realized that it is an effectively unified system that works with the muscles. And I understood at once that it would take a lot of study of the nature of that system to even glimpse how that system could be applied to martial technique.

So "The Leather Man" thread is intended to discuss the nature of the fascial system and the fact that any "use" of that system has to be in accord with that nature. Just as we wouldn't "hit" someone with our eyes or with our lungs, we have to find out "how" fascia can contribute before trying to force it to contribute in some way that goes against its nature.

Is what I'm saying.

Best wishes.

David

David Orange
07-30-2007, 03:29 PM
Would it optimize the performance of the whole system? ... Or is there something more at work here (and being worked on) than simply focusing on fascia can explain? Can it provide me with a useful predictive theory of how to measure and train these aspects?

What I meant to say was that we have to learn to coordinate the various systems of muscle, fascia, bone, blood and breath (among others) to get the best results. The only reason I isolate the fascia here is to clarify what's being discussed so that we can discuss more clearly how the functions of the fascia influence the other systems, giving us a better idea of how even to attempt to coordinate the systems.

David

Timothy WK
07-30-2007, 07:15 PM
David,

Did you happen to catch my thread, "My first glimpse of internal power (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12814)"? I tried describing my first experience of ki-/fascia-based movement. I can do a *little* more than I could then. I've worked a number of manual labor jobs, and what I'm experiencing now is definitely NOT the same thing as normal movement.

So the fascia can be used in a "muscle-like" fashion, even if we're not 100% sure about the exact bio-mechanics. I'm not sure if experienced people like Mike or Dan use pure fascia movement, or some muscle/fascia combo (though I think Mike might have mentioned some sort of muscle/fascia combo).

Aran Bright
07-31-2007, 01:00 AM
David,

Did you happen to catch my thread, "My first glimpse of internal power (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12814)"? I tried describing my first experience of ki-/fascia-based movement. I can do a *little* more than I could then. I've worked a number of manual labor jobs, and what I'm experiencing now is definitely NOT the same thing as normal movement.

So the fascia can be used in a "muscle-like" fashion, even if we're not 100% sure about the exact bio-mechanics. I'm not sure if experienced people like Mike or Dan use pure fascia movement, or some muscle/fascia combo (though I think Mike might have mentioned some sort of muscle/fascia combo).

Hi Timothy,

For my money I am betting that it is a muscle/fascia combination to create a stable structure. I think that the floating feeling comes from relaxed muscles and the pull of other muscles on the fascial tissues, definitely different to normal movement.

Aran

Lee Salzman
07-31-2007, 03:35 PM
What I meant to say was that we have to learn to coordinate the various systems of muscle, fascia, bone, blood and breath (among others) to get the best results. The only reason I isolate the fascia here is to clarify what's being discussed so that we can discuss more clearly how the functions of the fascia influence the other systems, giving us a better idea of how even to attempt to coordinate the systems.

But there's the question gnawing at my monkey brain... How long has this fascia idea been pushed... a year? For well over a year I would say, if not more. How much practical enlightenment has come of that?

The methods for training coordinated strength should be right there, and self-evident, without needing to talk about fascia or qi or ki to use them, or even know about them.

Moreover, if the reasoning behind these exercises is understood and quantifiable, in a way that is not entirely dependent on the practicioner's subjective reasoning so he can't just go on deluding himself ("Hmm, it feels like I might be doing X, and I've been practicing X for so long, that I must be doing it!"), or instead of searching for subjective floating feelings in your body, asking, "Can I hit a lot harder than I used to? Do the people I hit describe it as more like getting struck by lightning or hit by a freight train, or by more like an ineffective tap?". The exercises necessary to practice them should be self-evident, at least in an, "Oh duh, that's how!" sense. If you can measure it, and you can reduce the circumstances enough to where problems can be worked on, then you can practice it.

But this empirical flavor is missing from the "fascia" idea. So how is it an advancement over simply saying "ki" or "qi"?

Mike Sigman
07-31-2007, 04:46 PM
But there's the question gnawing at my monkey brain... How long has this fascia idea been pushed... a year? For well over a year I would say, if not more. How much practical enlightenment has come of that? Actually, the "fascia idea" has been pushed in other places for at least a couple of thousand years, Lee. I can't see where it particularly means anything in relation to how long it's been on one Aikido forum, if that's what you're talking about. It's just a name that more or less points to and corrals a bunch of different phenomena... phenomena which most people don't seem to realize are actually related. For instance, in yiquan, which you seem to have some experience with, the hairs standing on end (pilo-erection), the startle-releases Wang Xiang Zhai learned from Bai He, the connection of the body via the standing, etc., are the same "fascia" phenomena that Tohei works on with some of his breathing techniques, that Shioda expouses when he suggests expanding/spreading the hand, and so on. Are any of these Aikido and Yiquan practices "helpful"? If so, then the fascia idea, by pointing out more about what's going on should be helpful, too.But this empirical flavor is missing from the "fascia" idea. So how is it an advancement over simply saying "ki" or "qi"? How is "force vector" helpful in a discussion about "ki strength" or "kokyu power"? To me, it's pretty helpful to know that it ain't no mysterious, green-glowing magical force. ;)

Best.

Mike

David Orange
07-31-2007, 04:52 PM
... How long has this fascia idea been pushed... a year? For well over a year I would say, if not more. How much practical enlightenment has come of that?

Well, it's been around for hundreds if not thousands of years, but very, very few people have looked into it. First, probably, because it's not obvious and second because their teachers didn't tell them about it. And their teachers didn't tell for reasons previously discussed: the teachers were protecting themselves by not letting just anyone find out about it; and the teachers were protecting the students because training with that system in the wrong way is debilitating to one's health. If you've read much about qigong (used to be called chi kung), they always say you need to have a qualified teacher or you can hurt yourself seriously. And where are the qualified teachers?

The methods for training coordinated strength should be right there, and self-evident, without needing to talk about fascia or qi or ki to use them, or even know about them.

Well...it's not all self-evident because it uses "weakness" or at least "softness" in a world oriented to hardness and strength. And maybe saying "coordinated strength" is an example of that orientation. Dan has describe something almost the opposite--in effect, causing the opponent to coordinate his own weakness to the extreme so that he loses all his power. And he does this using both his own and the opponent's fascial system.

Because the fascia system is so different in structure and function from the muscle system (and because so few people even recognize it at all--much less as a whole system), we need to be very careful in how we think about how we might employ it.

But this empirical flavor is missing from the "fascia" idea. So how is it an advancement over simply saying "ki" or "qi"?

I think the empircal element is there in people offering to demonstrate it very openly. Several people have met Dan, Mike and Rob/Akuzawa now and have reported impressive experiences. Dan is reported to be able to stand in an ordinary stance and not only not be pushed over, but make the one pushing him become weak and unable to lift his feet--or make him fall. And he is said to be able to generate tremendous penetrating impact with almost no motion. Likewise for Mike Sigman, according to no less than George Ledyard. And you can see videos of Akuzawa doing some pretty eerie stuff.

So I think the empirical side is covered. The only question is how to do that stuff, ourselves.

And I started this thread to be able to "ruminate" somewhat on that subject, as I shall do more before long.

Thanks.

David

Lee Salzman
07-31-2007, 05:02 PM
Actually, the "fascia idea" has been pushed in other places for at least a couple of thousand years, Lee. I can't see where it particularly means anything in relation to how long it's been on one Aikido forum, if that's what you're talking about. It's just a name that more or less points to and corrals a bunch of different phenomena... phenomena which most people don't seem to realize are actually related. For instance, in yiquan, which you seem to have some experience with, the hairs standing on end (pilo-erection), the startle-releases Wang Xiang Zhai learned from Bai He, the connection of the body via the standing, etc., are the same "fascia" phenomena that Tohei works on with some of his breathing techniques, that Shioda expouses when he suggests expanding/spreading the hand, and so on. Are any of these Aikido and Yiquan practices "helpful"? If so, then the fascia idea, by pointing out more about what's going on should be helpful, too. How is "force vector" helpful in a discussion about "ki strength" or "kokyu power"? To me, it's pretty helpful to know that it ain't no mysterious, green-glowing magical force. ;)

Best.

Mike

I guess I lay my cards on the table by saying this, but, if we're talking yiquan, then the process of learning coordinated strength via the yiquan I learned does not suppose fascia, nor does knowing about fascia shed light on how one trains yiquan in this way. Doesn't mean it might not be involved, it just means it doesn't inform the bulk of the training at all, anymore than say the myonucleus, myofibrils, or the cytoplasm, because practical issues do instead.

And if you tag ideas onto a concept, that while maybe is tangible, but on the other hand isn't predictive or prescriptive, then how much better is it than magic? Because it still opens the door for very subjective interpretation, and thus for people to start turning it into magic, because the framework for explanation is still lacking. -- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- How many people really know how their TV works? Or even how to program a VCR? I don't think buzz words help. If anything, discuss the practical exercises, and reason from there, but reasoning from a nebulous buzz word down...?

Mike Sigman
07-31-2007, 05:14 PM
I guess I lay my cards on the table by saying this, but, if we're talking yiquan, then the process of learning coordinated strength via the yiquan I learned does not suppose fascia, nor does knowing about fascia shed light on how one trains yiquan in this way. Doesn't mean it might not be involved, it just means it doesn't inform the bulk of the training at all, anymore than say the myonucleus, myofibrils, or the cytoplasm, because practical issues do instead.

And if you tag ideas onto a concept, that while maybe is tangible, but on the other hand isn't predictive or prescriptive, then how much better is it than magic? Because it still opens the door for very subjective interpretation, and thus for people to start turning it into magic, because the framework for explanation is still lacking. -- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- How many people really know how their TV works? Or even how to program a VCR? I don't think buzz words help. If anything, discuss the practical exercises, and reason from there, but reasoning from a nebulous buzz word down...?Well, the exact same argument could be made about fascia in ki, kokyu, etc., and people could similarly lay their cards on the table that knowing the fascia idea doesn't help them any, and so on. But doesn't that depend on how much they know to start with? If you don't know much, then piling the fascia information on top does not do any good. However, people that have a basic understanding of the concepts seem to, in my experience, benefit from the fascia perspective... and it's certainly predictive and reproducible. If you want to set a baseling of what level people would benefit from the knowledge, that might be a good discussion. My perspective is that someone with even moderate knowledge of how the skills actually work benefits fairly obviously. Would the suggestion be that the level is so low that we should forego some aspects of the discussion? ;)

Best.

Mike

Lee Salzman
07-31-2007, 05:38 PM
Would the suggestion be that the level is so low that we should forego some aspects of the discussion?

The worry is that it simultaneously may be overinflating the concept beyond what it is, while also ignoring other components of the system that may be involved and deserve their own emphasis.

Lee Salzman
07-31-2007, 05:54 PM
David, I believe that Dan has got some cool stuff going on, and I'd still like to fly down there and learn it and see it. I have no idea how many puzzles pieces I have, just that I recently had a fantastic opportunity to learn some stuff that was *vastly* overwhelming to me despite the relative mundaneness of it, and perhaps especially because of the mundaneness of it (simultaneously "Oh, DUH!" and "You can do that with this!?"); so to peg it on one construct seems dismissive. But here we're picking one piece of paper out of a hat, and saying, "Yep, that's what it is! Just these fascia here."

What if there are a dizzying confluence of factors involved in making it happen, such that if one were actually to redesign a new system of training from the ground up based on merely the premise of active fascia, it would never achieve the intent of the original?

So if you can define the system with reference to the outcome (and not in a way that can shed doubt), and efficiently achieving that outcome, would that not be better? And what of the outcome? If you don't have a very sharp answer about what the outcome really is, regardless of how you define the system, how do you know you ever got there? That is what I mean by "self-evident".

Mike Sigman
07-31-2007, 06:59 PM
The worry is that it simultaneously may be overinflating the concept beyond what it is, while also ignoring other components of the system that may be involved and deserve their own emphasis.Well, I've always maintained that it's a complex system, but fascia is certainly part of it and is noted as such in documents going back a couple of thousand years... except not in English, of course. Although different schools of Yiquan use different terminology (backbitingest martial art I've ever seen, in terms of factions ;) ), it's in there, too. Personally, I think that while the interractions are complex in terms of what we're used to, the description of what's involved can be kept fairly basic. And I think we've more or less kept it basic by just leaving it at "fascia-related" at the moment.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

David Orange
07-31-2007, 09:27 PM
... to peg it on one construct seems dismissive. But here we're picking one piece of paper out of a hat, and saying, "Yep, that's what it is! Just these fascia here."

Well, as I've said, I separated the fascia out for consideration because everyone knows about the muscles. What I want to do here is go into the peculiarities and particularities of the fascial system. I just haven't had time to post on some of that. It's coming.

What if there are a dizzying confluence of factors involved in making it happen, such that if one were actually to redesign a new system of training from the ground up based on merely the premise of active fascia, it would never achieve the intent of the original?

You couldn't design a system entirely on the fascia. Without the bones and muscles, it would not stand like our "Leather Man," but would lie on the floor in a limp pile.

But I don't think there are a dizzying confluence of factors involved in martial work: the bones, fascia, muscles, blood, nerves and the organs and limbs, energized by life. That pretty much covers it. Look at Liang's Emei Baguazhang and read how he organizes it. You would get nowhere with fascia only, but leaving fascia out you fall far short of the potential.

For instance, consider where most of the body's fascia is located: the abdomen. Do you think it's coincidence that this is "the center," the dantien so emphasized in martial arts?

What's there in the abdomen? Of course, the intestines, the stomach, liver, kidneys, spleen. Further up are the heart and lungs. Why not put the empasis there? I think it's because the vegetative nerve ganglia located behind the digestive tract are so important to involuntary action and human emotions. This is the area that activates the involuntarily violent reactions of the "fight or flight" response. These nerve ganglia are supported by the abdominal fascia and I think we'll find that the fascia are instrumental in carrying the nerve message throughout the body. And I think the fascia is important in the violent contraction of the abdomen and hunching of the body, the dropping of the weight and the changes in blood flow and pressure associated with that response. My Zero Degree teaching has always concentrated on that response and moderating it for strategic advantage. I now believe that the fascia can do that very efficiently since it, and not the muscles, is very important to the response.

The fascia seems able not only to distribute power and dissipate incoming force: it seems able to distribute emotion away from the center, keeping one calm in the face of danger. Then the dropping of the weight can be done in time with the opponent's action. If one has enacted fight-or-flight already, he can't drop his weight again....and he is more mobile with the weight up high than with it lowered.

So for me, the main questions are "What functions does the fascial system naturally handle and how can we use those functions directly in our technique?"

The above example is just one thing. Working with the connectivity of the body is another. And further, in traditional Chinese martial arts, the fascia carries the qi throughout the body.

So there are multiple levels of the fascia alone to consider and understand before we integrate it back with the muscles and coordinate the systems. Otherwise, we might be trying to "coordinate" them in completely meaningless ways--as if we were trying to hit someone with our eyeballs.

Then, once we have understood the fascial system and its relation to the muscles and other systems and learned to coordinate them in ourselves, we can consider how to recognize the gaps in the opponent's coordinated systems and use them or, better, get him to use them against himself, as Dan has described.

Best wishes.

David

Pete Rihaczek
07-31-2007, 10:19 PM
I think the empircal element is there in people offering to demonstrate it very openly. Several people have met Dan, Mike and Rob/Akuzawa now and have reported impressive experiences. Dan is reported to be able to stand in an ordinary stance and not only not be pushed over, but make the one pushing him become weak and unable to lift his feet--or make him fall. And he is said to be able to generate tremendous penetrating impact with almost no motion. Likewise for Mike Sigman, according to no less than George Ledyard. And you can see videos of Akuzawa doing some pretty eerie stuff.


So, does this mean Mike still needs to "go somewhere quiet"? Amazing what a difference a few days makes. ;)

Tim Fong
07-31-2007, 10:37 PM
Well if we're ultimately serious about this, we'll want to get some physiologists invovled.

For example, someone like Patricia Cowings:
http://www.community-newspapers.com/archives/saratoganews/20020703/sncover.html

She's apparently done a lot of work on biofeedback and how it applies to motion sickness. Namely, her method gives people control over their typically autonomic functions. This is a method that NASA uses to train astronauts.

Having awareness and controlling the functions isn't enough for our purposes because we have to strengthen things as well. But, learning to control and feel it , would be a start. And learning to dial that in (by taking instrumented tests) would be a huge jump.

It's the only way that people who started practicing late in life (aka all of us without a koryu teacher as a childhood mentor, or who didn't grow up in Chen village) can get exceed those of who came before us.

Mike Sigman
07-31-2007, 10:39 PM
Dan is reported to be able to stand in an ordinary stance and not only not be pushed over, but make the one pushing him become weak and unable to lift his feet--or make him fall. And he is said to be able to generate tremendous penetrating impact with almost no motion. Likewise for Mike Sigman, according to no less than George Ledyard. And you can see videos of Akuzawa doing some pretty eerie stuff.Just to throw in a universal caution. All of these skills are ultimately physical skills that take training. Tohei "is reported to be able to stand in an ordinary stance and.... not be pushed over", too, but that's within limited parameters. A slow-moving 1955 Chevy pickup would run over him. So there are limits to all of these grand-sounding skills and there are levels of ability and so on. Let's keep it real out there, folks. ;)

Best.

Mike

Lee Salzman
07-31-2007, 11:53 PM
Well, as I've said, I separated the fascia out for consideration because everyone knows about the muscles.

But that's just it - people know about what they're familiar with. There are some fairly non-familiar aspects of the contractile system of the body as a whole, without even dissecting the parts, that take hours of specific daily work a day over a period of years to perfect. It's really a mind-boggling amount of stuff to work on to maximize the fighting potential of the body.

So for me, the main questions are "What functions does the fascial system naturally handle and how can we use those functions directly in our technique?"

The above example is just one thing. Working with the connectivity of the body is another. And further, in traditional Chinese martial arts, the fascia carries the qi throughout the body.

So there are multiple levels of the fascia alone to consider and understand before we integrate it back with the muscles and coordinate the systems. Otherwise, we might be trying to "coordinate" them in completely meaningless ways--as if we were trying to hit someone with our eyeballs.

Then, once we have understood the fascial system and its relation to the muscles and other systems and learned to coordinate them in ourselves, we can consider how to recognize the gaps in the opponent's coordinated systems and use them or, better, get him to use them against himself, as Dan has described.

But is this not a very old wheel? The "how" is already out there for us to study, is it not? "Why" should be academic at this point, merely shedding light on why the exercises comprising the "how" work.

So long as we're holding out Dan as an example, and I hate to put Dan's words in Dan's mouth, but fair use and all:
I'm glad you read about fascia and fascial sheeting. But in all honesty..Knowing about it won't get you anywhere. With the right kind of instruction I'll see ya in 5 years, maybe, juuuust maybe you'll have a little something. Without it, you'll be right back here ..talking...about fascia.

So what are we to make of this?

Al Gutierrez
08-01-2007, 12:58 AM
Just to throw in a universal caution. All of these skills are ultimately physical skills that take training. Tohei "is reported to be able to stand in an ordinary stance and.... not be pushed over", too, but that's within limited parameters. A slow-moving 1955 Chevy pickup would run over him. So there are limits to all of these grand-sounding skills and there are levels of ability and so on. Let's keep it real out there, folks.

I've seen a video of Tohei having a pretty hard hard time keeping his center when dealing with an unskilled yet burly American journalist. In the end it wasn't ki or kokyu or even aikido technique, but rather judo technique that helped him to prevail.

I think practically speaking, that thinking in terms of fascia related training is probably just as vague and hard to visualize for most people as thinking of green-glowing magical forces.

But when Tohei talks about keeping weight underside most people can get that much with a little practice - but more importantly, when you tell soemone to keep weight underside it's not difficult to understand what that means even if they're not proficient yet. However, if you tell someone to not use muscle strength but instead to use their fascia tissues like a tensegrital structure to spread out and absorb an incoming force - who really understands what that means before they can actually do it?

In the spirit of "keeping it real", How does keeping weight underside affect the fascia? Do any of you really know?

Or, how does understanding ki in terms of fascia related structure (or forces) help to keep one's weight more completely underside than understanding ki as simply energy, life force, rays of golden light, or good old fashioned green-glowing, magic power?

Tohei is often held up as someone who was on the right track with understanding these skills - at least the baseline. My question is how many aikido instructors who learned from him can demonstrate or exhibit similar skills? In other words, make it real?

A.G.

Timothy WK
08-01-2007, 06:46 AM
In may respects, the fascia argument is besides the point. There are concrete training methods out there that produce replicatible results. You don't need to know the bio-mechanics to perform the exercises. You just have to concentrate on the feelings that these techniques produce. I certainly don't think, "and now I engage the fascia," when I practice.

But at some point, though, students are going to start asking, "why am I feeling these sensations?" The fascia argument is just (in my opinion) the most plausible theory.

And I will say, the theory makes more sense once you start experiencing things. For example, you feel various sensations "under the skin". What's "under the skin"? The fascia.

Mike Sigman
08-01-2007, 07:53 AM
But when Tohei talks about keeping weight underside most people can get that much with a little practice - but more importantly, when you tell soemone to keep weight underside it's not difficult to understand what that means even if they're not proficient yet. However, if you tell someone to not use muscle strength but instead to use their fascia tissues like a tensegrital structure to spread out and absorb an incoming force - who really understands what that means before they can actually do it?

In the spirit of "keeping it real", How does keeping weight underside affect the fascia? Do any of you really know?
I already said very clearly before. Fascia is needed to tie the body together so that it functions as a whole-body. How do you get the weight at your body-center transferred to your hands if you want it there? Not muscle.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

David Orange
08-01-2007, 09:00 AM
So, does this mean Mike still needs to "go somewhere quiet"? Amazing what a difference a few days makes. ;)

Mike deserves some rest. We all could use some rest.

David

David Orange
08-01-2007, 09:10 AM
But that's just it - people know about what they're familiar with. There are some fairly non-familiar aspects of the contractile system of the body as a whole, without even dissecting the parts, that take hours of specific daily work a day over a period of years to perfect. It's really a mind-boggling amount of stuff to work on to maximize the fighting potential of the body.

But I think that recognizing the sensitivity of the fascia can help that process. That's how I'm looking at the fascia--not as another type of muscle, but as a unique organ (the whole-body fascia system could almost be seen as a single organ) that does things we haven't noticed and can help our efforts in ways he may not have recognized.

But is this not a very old wheel? The "how" is already out there for us to study, is it not? "Why" should be academic at this point, merely shedding light on why the exercises comprising the "how" work.

Yes. That's basically why I started this thread: to think out loud about that very thing and to hear responses from people far more experienced in it than I.

So long as we're holding out Dan as an example, and I hate to put Dan's words in Dan's mouth, but fair use and all:

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I'm glad you read about fascia and fascial sheeting. But in all honesty..Knowing about it won't get you anywhere. With the right kind of instruction I'll see ya in 5 years, maybe, juuuust maybe you'll have a little something. Without it, you'll be right back here ..talking...about fascia.

So what are we to make of this?

You can take it at face value: I have just recognized the fascial system and I have nowhere claimed to have mastered any of the usage discussed. You may also make of it that I am working out a time with Dan when we can get together so that he can show me some of his work. But I have recognized that the value of the fascial system is not like that of the muscles and that people may fail to see the implications of "using" it because they are thinking that it "is" to be used more or less the same as the muscles.

Best wishes.

David

David Orange
08-01-2007, 09:14 AM
In may respects, the fascia argument is besides the point. There are concrete training methods out there that produce replicatible results. You don't need to know the bio-mechanics to perform the exercises. You just have to concentrate on the feelings that these techniques produce....

That is true. I have done aikido, judo, karate, kenjutsu, taiji, bagua and qigong for decades. But I think that after all that exercise, understanding the fascial system and its application to those movements is something that will help me.

Thanks.

David

Aran Bright
08-10-2007, 05:58 AM
I have to wonder, is the value in the fascia idea that there is another way to move that we haven't considered before and that maybe, just maybe there is another system in the body that maybe responsible for this and that this idea in itself opens our mind to new possibilities?

tarik
08-10-2007, 10:43 AM
I have to wonder, is the value in the fascia idea that there is another way to move that we haven't considered before and that maybe, just maybe there is another system in the body that maybe responsible for this and that this idea in itself opens our mind to new possibilities?

Perhaps that's the primary value. In a society where various aspects and ideas of ki are culturally instituted, maybe that's the system.

A lot of this internal discussion reminds me of arm wrestling matches when I was young and learned that I could 'resist' by relaxing, extending, and grounding out into the table my opponents force instead of pushing back.

I didn't think about ki or fascia or internal anything when doing that, just that it was interesting and that I could resist (and sometimes even overcome) a much stronger person that way for much longer.

Regards,

Gernot Hassenpflug
08-10-2007, 11:06 PM
I think it is much harder to put out such ground-based power than it is to absorb, mostly because in ordinary strength "putting out" is an antithesis of "relax" whereas absorbing is not. Maybe that's one reason ground-path training is so hard, and why the exercises (that I know from Akuzawa) tend to work linearly, to imbue the feeling the same way in both directions.

David Orange
01-11-2014, 05:59 PM
Hmm. Just found this picture. Not sure who will be able to see it, but:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152150418980225&set=a.459943615224.235008.244356890224&type=1&theater

in light of which, please see the first post in this thread:

"...picture Morihei Ueshiba standing before you. Imagine him completely nude, standing as he feels comfortable.

Now imagine him with his skin gone, so that we can see the muscles. Now imagine that all the muscles disappear, but the bones and internal organs remain in place, as if the muscles were still there. The blood and vessels remain, the nerves remain and the fascia remain.

Now imagine that the bones are gone and the fascia, blood vessels, internal organs, etc. all remain where they would be as Morihei stands as he feels comfortable.

Now imagine that everything is gone but the fascia, itself, remaining exactly where it was when Morihei stood in whole body.

So now you're looking at only the fascia of Morihei Ueshiba, standing like a man. You will notice that this is not really a "suit" but more something like a sponge, with empty places held inside convolutions of the tissue. This is where the internal organs were held. There are spaces where every muscle would be, so that Morihei's fascia forms something like a hollow man--not a full-body empty suit, but an entire layer of the body's tissues. The internal organs, the muscles and bones and every other part of the human body are embedded in the fascial layer of the body.

So see Morihei's full fascia body, standing before us like a man made of leather, and realize that that tissue is alive in its own right. It has feeling and it is full of ki. And when one part of the fascia feels something, the entire system of the fascia feels it because it is purely connective.

The entire discussion of "this stuff" or "internal mechanics" really involves using that entire fascial being to augment the efforts of the muscles and bones. Most people think of using their muscles to move their bones to execute techniques and this can be enhanced by various exercises to strengthen both muscle and bone.

But since the fascia is not like muscle and cannot be made to contract or expand by sheer will, like a muscle, it will take a lot of deep thought to see just how the fascia system could augment power and just how it could be exercised to do that."

Regards,

David

Budd
01-12-2014, 05:34 PM
But David (and pun fully intended), it's just a piece. The fascia needs to be slowly conditioned as it connects to the rest of the body bits directly and indirectly (muscle, tendon, ligament, bone, etc) ideally in a slow, relaxed manner over a period of time (if you want to do 6 harmony stuffs, there are other methods for other things) even as you're working on the ground/gravity balance trick and articulating the middle.

Talk about thread resuscitation, tho....

David Orange
01-14-2014, 10:48 AM
Just wanted to show what a body devoid of any elements other than fascia would look like. Can you imagine an entire human body's fascial network? It permeates everything…

Training and using it is another thing, but being able to visualize it, we have to see that this is not a meaningless and irrelevant bunch of tissue. It's a whole system and the implications are staggering.

Cheers!