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Jappzz
11-21-2001, 04:36 PM
Hi everyone.

I have a question that came to me serving as uke for my sensei during childrens class last week. I have always been given the that ukemi in aikido should follow some kind of concept based on smoothness and gentleness to assure good and safe ukemi. Comming from a koshinage or a pin etc. where nage is holding on to you that seems to be real hard scince you can't do any breakfalls. Now i KNOW this is when you dash your arm away with all you've got to protect your head and shoulder.
It just came to me last week when being uke on a koshinage that some of the children where banging their little palms in the mat at the same time i did so. Clearly they had no concept of why i did it and the surely didn't incorporate it in their own ukemi. But i still got me thinking when the thing that these kids apparantly saw this as some sort of weird, flashy gimmic that also distracted them that i might be doing them a bad favour in banging away too loud.
Does anybody have an oppinion wether ukemi should always be silent and/or if it's actually BAD ukemi to produce more sound than that of a spinning lump of meat willingly rolling along in his gi.

Jasper

[Censored]
11-21-2001, 05:45 PM
If you need to slap, and you don't, that is bad technique.

If you don't need to slap, and you do anyway, that is really bad technique.

If you intentionally make noise when you fall down, that is REALLY bad technique.

Thalib
11-21-2001, 06:00 PM
Actually Satori has a good point.

To slap or not to slap is in accordance to the situation. The sound is actually a side effect.

But as you go along, and better at controlling yourself at breakfalls, you will see that you will make as little sound as possible.

shihonage
11-21-2001, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Jappzz

Does anybody have an oppinion wether ukemi should always be silent and/or if it's actually BAD ukemi to produce more sound than that of a spinning lump of meat willingly rolling along in his gi.


Ukemi should be safe.

Thalib
11-21-2001, 06:36 PM
Wow, Sundeyev, short, straight to the point, and hit it right on the mark.

colinlam
11-22-2001, 12:55 AM
i really think slapping the floor depends on how high u've been thrown ... if u r being thrown lightly then u can simply roll away ... if u've been thrown hard or from a high position , u better slap the floor for safety sake (take Judo's kata guruma as an exmaple)

Hagen Seibert
11-22-2001, 03:05 AM
My teacher, Shimizu Sensei, emphasizes frequently that ukemi has to be done together with Nage, and not neccessarily silent.

That means, itīs no good if Uke - coming to the point of being thrown - jumps off by himself and then landing on the mat like a feather. Because this is likely to result if people are trying to achieve a silent ukemi. But the connection between Uke and Nage is disrupted, Uke is performing ukemi on his own. Focus should be on acting together, so itīs not only Nage who has got to harmonize and blend.

jimvance
11-27-2001, 01:22 AM
I think most everyone here has watched the beginning sequence to the TV show "Kung Fu" one too many times...you know, the part where Grasshopper's teacher tells him to walk across the rice paper without noise or leaving a trace. Ukemi is not about making (or not making) noise, it's about taking care of your self. I think the real question in Jasper's initial post was "Gosh, why do I slap the mat?" Let me answer it this way:

I weigh 180 pounds, a large portion of that weight being bone mass (breakable). If you drop a cadaver of equal weight from a height of about 10 to 30 inches, would it make noise? The cadaver is beyond caring whether its bones and skull remain intact, so it does not round its back, tuck its head or divert force by slapping the ground. But I think it would still make some noise. If you drop a heavy sack, it will make noise. If you roll a steel-belted radial tire across the ground it will make some noise. Forget the noise crap.

If you have time to think about how hard you are going to slap the mat, you aren't doing your job as uke. "Well kote gaeshi is okay, but maybe not for shihonage." When do we have time to make up these rules? I agree with Hagen. It's not uke's job to make himself, his teacher, or his ukemi look good by taking "ninja rolls" or "silent ukemi". His job is to get up in one piece. And if you must make noise, make it. I usually make a lot of noise from ukemi the next day, you know, walking around and stuff....

Jim Vance

Jappzz
11-27-2001, 05:01 AM
Ok i didn't state my point clearly enough. So i'll try to remedy that now instead.
Naturally i understand that my no.1 priority should be safety. I mean there's a reason why i don't collapse like the cadaver in above post but instead try to protect my vital parts. The question was not wether i should prioritize safety above noisemaking or not. My question was if it could be considered bad form or nonconstructive to make exessive noise. Maybe it's a dumb question but i just feel that the noise produced by fellow aikidoka and myself might not always be motivated. The question is wether one should deliberatety try to moderate one's ukemi so you don't distract your pupils, yourself or corrupt your form by trying too hard in a stereotype manner. Something like that...

Hope aah got thru to ya'll this time

Hugs

Jasper

lt-rentaroo
11-27-2001, 08:22 AM
Hello,

Hmm, I've never really thought about this before. I believe that the harder I'm tossed, the more noise I make when I land (at least when a breakfall is involved). I don't intentionally "slap" the mat during rolls or breakfalls, as I've found it actually distracts others who are training nearby.

You hear a loud slap, turn to look, and then get smacked in the head with a Shomenuchi.

Have a good day!

wildaikido
11-27-2001, 08:42 AM
You need to focus on the attack and not sounds especially when you are in a real situation. You can't let anything distract you.

guest1234
11-27-2001, 08:46 AM
I think that it is easier to make noise when thrown hard, easier to be silent when thrown soft, but possible to be either in both cases---it just take more focus and effort to be silent with a hard throw and loud with a soft one. Like practicing variations on technique, I think it is good to try them all. I do not find the demo uke falling hard to be distracting, nor do I find those around me falling hard to be distracting, but perhaps I am more able to ignore noise from working in ERs :rolleyes:

My first sensei could do a silent breakfall, a goal I have not yet reached.;)

I have had others twice my size thrown on top of me, even on fairly deserted mats, so I tend to slap hard when near others as a self defense, be aware I'm down here kind of thing.:eek:

Creature_of_the_id
11-27-2001, 09:01 AM
I was always taught that when rolling it should be silent, and when breakfalling you should make alot of noise with the slap of your hand as it takes the shock away from the spine.

I told a student recently that the more noise you make when you breakfall the less damage you will do to yourself. the next time he did a breakfall not only did he slap the mat, but he also shouted lol :D

must learn to be more explicit with words when teaching.

Kev

Bryan Webb
11-27-2001, 10:55 AM
Have You seen Donavan Waite Sensei's videos on Ukemi ?

If not give them a look. Both Silent and not.

Great Video!!!!

Greg Jennings
11-27-2001, 12:01 PM
Ukemi is so much more than falling.

With that said, your falls have to be not only safe for the moment, but healthy for the longer term.

Regards,

lt-rentaroo
11-27-2001, 01:08 PM
Hello,

Graham - I was joking about the noise of loud ukemi being a distractor (at least for me).

That said though, I've noticed that beginning students often do allow the noise from loud ukemi distract them. It seems the need to see where the noise came from is an ingrained response.

None of my military training has addressed this specifically, but I've talked to those who have received training concerning this response. For example, training soldiers to drop to the ground when a loud noise occurs nearby, instead of standing up and possibly becoming injured or even worse, losing your head!

Perhaps Colleen can elaborate more on the importance of not letting noise become a distractor on the battlefield :D

Have a good day!

[Censored]
11-27-2001, 03:32 PM
The question was not wether i should prioritize safety above noisemaking or not. My question was if it could be considered bad form or nonconstructive to make exessive noise. Maybe it's a dumb question but i just feel that the noise produced by fellow aikidoka and myself might not always be motivated. The question is wether one should deliberatety try to moderate one's ukemi so you don't distract your pupils, yourself or corrupt your form by trying too hard in a stereotype manner.

You want the most efficient use of energy. If you have too much energy and there is no other way to dissipate it, then hit the mat as hard as necessary. If not, do not. Very simple, but few people understand.

If classmates are disturbed by loud noises, that is their problem to solve.

Mares
11-27-2001, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by [Censored]

If classmates are disturbed by loud noises, that is their problem to solve.

This is what gets me. I don't understand how noise could distract other students. Shouldn't there also be kiaai-ing especially from the senior students? does that distract other students? From my experience it's the kiaai's which generate more noise than the mat slapping.

But i guess the amount of noise around would be dojo specific. We are constantly reminded that we are in a dojo and not a church so plenty of loud kiaai's are expected.

as far as breakfalls/highfalls are concerned, I have found that the high you go the softer you land and the less noise you make. Within reason of course

michaelkvance
11-27-2001, 09:33 PM
Shouldn't there also be kiaai-ing especially from the senior students?


Er? Do some dojos teach this? How interesting.

We had some fellows come to one of our intensives once, and whenever I would throw them (irimi-nage, tenchi-nage), they'd utter in a low, raspy voice, "uuuttzzzz". I kept thinking I had hurt them or something, very strange!

m.

Greg Jennings
11-28-2001, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by michaelkvance

Er? Do some dojos teach this? How interesting.

We had some fellows come to one of our intensives once, and whenever I would throw them (irimi-nage, tenchi-nage), they'd utter in a low, raspy voice, "uuuttzzzz". I kept thinking I had hurt them or something, very strange!


Er? You find it odd that people kiai when executing technique or when being thrown?

How very strange!

Regards,

guest1234
11-28-2001, 10:42 AM
The most different noise I've heard (usually at seminars, sometimes from a visitor) is a kind of yipping and/or yapping sound: "y-i-i-i-i-p-p...." and "y-a-a-a-a-a-p-p..."

Sprinkle a couple of those into a usually quiet dojo, toss in a few Kiai's, and pretty soon there'd be a supressed giggle or two.

Of course, there are also the senior students who manage to make an encouraging "yes, that's it, yes" comment on technique sound like the sound track from an adult movie:rolleyes:

ranZ
11-29-2001, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by ca
Of course, there are also the senior students who manage to make an encouraging "yes, that's it, yes" comment on technique sound like the sound track from an adult movie:rolleyes: [/B]

i hope they don't do "oooh... aahhh" sounds.. :D

Being thrown usually i'd be making "whoaa!" sounds followed by "ughh!" and a loud thud on the tatami.

i still can't believe ppl can do that silent ukemi.... amazing. (*one of my long term goal too *)
can u believe some senseis can leap above obstacles as high as he/she and make a silent ukemi.:eek:

guest1234
11-29-2001, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by ranZ


i hope they don't do "oooh... aahhh" sounds.. :D



Nooo, more like "Yes! That's IT! Ye-e-s-s-s, ye-s-s-s, YE-E-E-S-S-S!!! Very nice!" :eek:

Of course, I think the 'very nice' part might not be found in those types of movies, I'm not sure...:rolleyes:

:D

shihonage
11-29-2001, 04:04 PM
"Yes ! Enter deeper !"

Thalib
11-29-2001, 04:23 PM
Oh... we're going towards those type of sound making are we...

Mona
11-30-2001, 05:20 PM
Hi,

Slapping the dojo mat sure reduces the impact, but it can break your arm in real life, on the pavement...So I'm trying not to get used to slapping the mat.

As for the other sounds..."kiai, yep! yip! and ooooooz!", they're all uttered by those who study other martial arts but insist on training in Aikido as well. Frankly, I find it irritating and sometimes disrespectful when the karate group in class say: "ouuz! and "kiai" while the rest of us are often quiet and only utter, occasionally, "Ai, Sensei!".

Mona

shihonage
11-30-2001, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Mona
Hi,

Slapping the dojo mat sure reduces the impact, but it can break your arm in real life, on the pavement...So I'm trying not to get used to slapping the mat.

As for the other sounds..."kiai, yep! yip! and ooooooz!", they're all uttered by those who study other martial arts but insist on training in Aikido as well. Frankly, I find it irritating and sometimes disrespectful when the karate group in class say: "ouuz! and "kiai" while the rest of us are often quiet and only utter, occasionally, "Ai, Sensei!".

Mona

About first paragraph:
I think a good Aikido practitioner should be able choose depending on a situation whether it's in his best interest to "slap" the asphalt or to try and deal with it by other means.

For example there's a well-known story about a guy who got pushed off a 5th story balcony, and the doctors attributed his survival solely to the instinctive breakfall.
He broke his wrist and a leg (or something like that) and was in a coma for 2 months, but he came out of it fine.
Guess what would've happened if he decided not to sacrifice his repairable body parts for the unrepairable ones.

About second paragraph:
Many people in our dojo do a kiai, and I sincerely doubt that all of them are studying Karate. I certainly don't study Karate but I find it necessary sometimes to "oooz" or "haaaii" simply to release fear of the impending energetic throw. Especially if I don't know what it's gonna be.

Abasan
11-30-2001, 10:02 PM
I agree with Mona that slapping the 'real' floor around the world can be painful and even injurious, having done it a few times myself. :rolleyes:

But then again, as shihonage so rightly says, sacrificing your repairable body parts for the not so repairable parts would be of greater importance.

We are all training under simulated and controlled conditions in the dojo. If you feel that that is the extent you wish to go in your quest for budo, by all means, do not slap the mat because in all likelihood, the mat would be good enough on its own to disperse your force without you being the worst for it. However, training also breeds the conditioning of your inbred reflexes. If you should happen to have to perform ukemi in the real world and your reflex is not to slap the floor for a breakfall, you might end up with a broken back, neck or etc. :eek:
Besides, our unconditioned natural reflexes would have us throwing our limbs at the floor as we fall. But that purely instinctive move may not be the best way to protect yourself. Ukemi training refines the method of throwing your hands about so that it does not get unneccesarily injured.

As for the kiai. Mayhaps different arts teach kiai for different reasons. In aikido, OSensei sometimes uses kiai as well so there's no reason to discount its use. Personally, I don't kiai because we don't practice it much here. It would probably be embarassing if I were to start kiai-ing one day when my Sensei has not decided to include it in his curiculum. Although, were I to train in another dojo that does teach kiai in its practice, I would definitely practice it with fervour. As they say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

As for kiai being disrespectful. I believe when we practice something sincerely and honestly, it cannot be disrespectful unless it goes against the wishes of the sensei. In this case, I would presume your sensei does not find your fellow member's kiai's to be disrespectful since he has not told them to stop. Perhaps, the best person to ask about what we discuss here in the forum would be the person you are asking to teach you the art. Otherwise, why learn from him/her in the first place?

jimvance
11-30-2001, 11:00 PM
Who is going to throw you in a kotegaeshi or a koshinage out on the pavement? And why are all "real world" applications happening in parking lots? Why couldn't they happen in a grassy park or a carpeted apartment building? The remarks above beg the question that you will need to "slap" at all. If you slip and fall down (which will probably account for 90 percent of all "real world" ukemi), the most important part of "slapping" is allowing your arms and hands to relax and come up as the body starts down. This way the automatic response of reaching back or down doesn't occur (caught myself doing it just last month), which could not only save your wrist and elbow (more vulnerable than the actual bones in the arm) but also the collarbone, which is the only real vulnerable bone to breakage in a fall where someone would be reaching for the ground. The arm is not as "at risk" from proper ukemi in a non-mat experience as alluded to because the muscles and fascia are taking the shock, not the bones. Keeping the hands up and away from catching our fall and tucking the head would be much more important in a "real world" application.
In the dojo we are not just falling down, there are tremendous forces being added to our own gravity driven descent. If they are not absorbed by an appendage like an arm or a leg, they will be absorbed by other more vital areas. I have been thrown (once earlier this week) where I did not have time to slap the mat, and so my lungs and visceral organs pick up the shock. This typically causes feelings of "getting the wind knocked out of me" and nausea from over-stimulation of the solar plexus. Repeated falling in a dojo setting needs a shock absorber just like the wheels of your car. The bigger (and more dynamic) the throw, the harder (and louder) the fall.

And for kiai, Morihei Ueshiba Sensei was known for his fierce kiai, both audible and inaudible. Saito Sensei recounted that anyone a mile from Iwama dojo could hear O-Sensei when he was training there.

Food for thought.

Jim Vance

Edward
12-01-2001, 02:26 AM
I guess the answer is very simple. There are 2 kinds of Ukemi. First, there is the soft Aikido roll where you hit the ground (or mat)almost noiselessly. It's useless to slap in this case.
The second is judo style Ukemi, or breakfall, like when you are thrown by Koshi Nage for example. It is very wise then to slap as hard as you can to dissipate the shock from your spine, whether on the mat or on asphalt.

As for the Kiai, it is a part of Aikido, and osensei used to teach several kiai sounds depending on whether you attack, receive, or throw, all based on the kotodama system.

Thalib
12-01-2001, 03:44 AM
From my experience, the point is not slapping, but controlling the fall.

I slap because I still have little control of my fall. But I know when I have control, it is when all I need to do is place my hand, not slap it. That's where the silent and the non-silent ukemi comes from.

I started practicing Aikido, not on mat, but on carpeted floors. We spent the first year, without any mats to practice on. We do demonstrations, yes, outdoor, on a parking lot.

At first we did put mats on the parking lot that we were demonstrating on. But then, the sun was just so hot, the mats were hot enough to fry eggs on (an aikidoka burnt her foot from the mats). We put away the mattress, and just did it without. The solid ground was better than the mats.

All these experiences taught me how to do a proper ukemi, silen or not. Ukemi is needed to be safe, practicing it on solid ground in the past teaches me this. I have accidentally fallen, and the ukemi saved me without leaving any pain, so far. Even though my friends that saw it got quite a scare, it didn't hurt me at all.

Just remember, ukemi needs to be safe. There are no sacrifices involved in ukemi. Ukemi is designed so you don't have to scarifice any body parts.

Thalib
12-01-2001, 04:02 AM
Aiki is the spirit of harmony. Kiai is harmonizing Ki.

You don't need to shout or make noise to reach Kiai. People really mix up Kiai for shouting or making noise, which is a very shallow way to look at it.

Kiai is, this is also a shallow way to put it, calling in all your Ki that is broken apart in order for it to be one. Harmonizing it so it could be a source for your strength.

I use kiai in ukemi not by shouting or make noise, but concentrate on one point. To concentrate on that one point (seika no itten or seika tanden), to concentrate on the hara. To do this, I breathe out, and feel the flow to the hara. Sometimes the side effect of this, for me, is a low gutteral sound.

From a physiological point of view, have you ever tried falling down with a lungful of air? It is very dangerous. Breathing out is quite adequate, but I use kiai so I still have energy after the breakfall.

Just take it in consideration.

shihonage
12-01-2001, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by Thalib
We do demonstrations, yes, outdoor, on a parking lot.


I always take into consideration on how my ukemi would work on asphalt and hard floors.

My rolls are a bit different on a hard surface. In particular I try to avoid damage to the kidney(s).

Thalib
12-01-2001, 05:15 AM
Sundeyev-san, try to avoid damage, not only to the kidneys, but to every part of your body.

Remember, no unnecessary sacrifices. It is no longer the sengoku jidai (war era). There is no need for that.

It is sometimes unfortunate that a part of the body gets injured. But it is best, when none of the body parts get injured.

It is not important how the ukemi is done as long as it is safe, saves you from bodily harm in anyway possible.

Mares
12-02-2001, 07:39 PM
We have always been taught to kiai. Especially during udansha class. I believe it helps you to breathe, because to produce sound you must breathe out. And I understand to improve technique you breathe out as you perform it. I guess it is similar to tennis players, many breathe out heavily or grunt as they hit the ball to help produce more power.

Also as an added bonus if you kiai from your hara or belly you can make quite a frigthening sound which can scare the 'begeezous' out of the attacker.

Greg Jennings
12-02-2001, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Mona

As for the other sounds..."kiai, yep! yip! and ooooooz!", they're all uttered by those who study other martial arts but insist on training in Aikido as well. Frankly, I find it irritating and sometimes disrespectful when the karate group in class say: "ouuz! and "kiai" while the rest of us are often quiet and only utter, occasionally, "Ai, Sensei!".

I can agree with the second part of your post. The general rule of thumb is "When in Rome, do as the Romans do".

The first part of your post indicates that you need to get out more.

Regards,

Greg Jennings

Mona
12-03-2001, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings


The first part of your post indicates that you need to get out more.


Where to exactly?

~ Mona

PeterR
12-03-2001, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Mona
As for the other sounds..."kiai, yep! yip! and ooooooz!", they're all uttered by those who study other martial arts but insist on training in Aikido as well. Frankly, I find it irritating and sometimes disrespectful when the karate group in class say: "ouuz! and "kiai" while the rest of us are often quiet and only utter, occasionally, "Ai, Sensei!".
Of course lets not forget that in many Aikido dojos a loud Hai sensei, or Ous, or Kiai is an expected part of training. I've taken a bullocking from my Shihan for not uttering a phrase loud enough.

As for the slap - the main purpose is to dissipate energy. If your body is being slammed into the mat/ground/vat of jello then a proper slap is called for. If it is just in passing during a role the only reason for the slap is that its good reactionary training to the full body slam situation.

akiy
12-04-2001, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by Edward
IThe second is judo style Ukemi, or breakfall, like when you are thrown by Koshi Nage for example. It is very wise then to slap as hard as you can to dissipate the shock from your spine, whether on the mat or on asphalt.
The loud slap is not necessary in all versions of a breakfall/highfall.

There are versions of the breakfall/highfall which does not require any slapping but are very soft. These soft breakfalls sometimes look as though the person is reaching "behind" them as they fall with their leading hand (which would have been used to slap in a traditional breakfall) to "cushion" their fall.

I'm not that great at it, but I can do it to some degree. I've seen people use this kind of soft breakfalls out of pretty much every conceivable situation -- including from techniques like kotegaeshi, iriminage (which would result in a soft back breakfall), and koshinage...

-- Jun

Edward
12-04-2001, 09:14 PM
Hello Jun,

I admit to have seen on some occasions people able to do that, and I was always full of admiration for them. But most people can't do it, even advanced black belts. I myself would be grateful for life to anyone who could teach me this soft highfall.

Best regards,
Edward

Edward
12-04-2001, 09:18 PM
PS: These very people I am talking about forgot completely about their soft landing when Shihan threw them with lightning speed, so I guess it depends on Nage's goodwill as well.

Regards,
Edward

unsound000
12-05-2001, 02:36 AM
There should not be a slap out. The arm/hand etc. should all hit the mat at the same time. Most experienced people make 2 sounds when they fall, the body and then the hand. They are so close together in timing though, that most of us don't notice it. A perfect fall would not hurt your hand on pavement. One sound. Something to strive for...

Originally posted by Edward
PS: These very people I am talking about forgot completely about their soft landing when Shihan threw them with lightning speed, so I guess it depends on Nage's goodwill as well.

Regards,
Edward

Steve
12-05-2001, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Mona
Hi,

Slapping the dojo mat sure reduces the impact, but it can break your arm in real life, on the pavement...So I'm trying not to get used to slapping the mat.

SNIP

Mona

Damn right. I've concluded that slapping the mat, while in theory a good idea, simply isn't as effective as we want to believe.

Physics tells us that for every physical action there is an opposite and equal reaction. Swing your arm in one direction and your body will twist in the opposite direction. (This is best illustrated in a weightless environment but can be demonstrated by swinging a baseball bat while standing on one foot.) The theory behind slapping the mat is that by swinging your arm downward, you will (and do) negate some of the downward movement of your body. Swing your arm hard enough and you should be able to suspend your body above the mat for a moment. This would nullify the energy that nage gives your body during the throw and you will fall to the mat with only the energy that Earth's gravity applies to your mass. Unfortunately, the mass of your arm is so small compared to the rest of your body that you would have to swing your arm very, VERY fast to remove a significant amount of energy from what nage and gravity give to your body. If you could move your arm this fast then you would surely injure it seriously on impact.

Perhaps, though, slapping the mat helps stabilze your body by controling the angle at which your leg-hip-side-shoulder all roll across the ground. This probably has real value.

PeterR
12-05-2001, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by unsound000
Most experienced people make 2 sounds when they fall, the body and then the hand.
Jon I am sure you just slipped up but the whole point of the slap is to dissipate energy and thereby save the body from the full impact. Seems a bit silly to slap the hand after the body has landed.

akiy
12-05-2001, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Edward
I admit to have seen on some occasions people able to do that, and I was always full of admiration for them. But most people can't do it, even advanced black belts. I myself would be grateful for life to anyone who could teach me this soft highfall.
It's something that usually has to be cultivated from the beginning of people's training, but I've been taught it well into my training. I've also been able to teach it to some folks too.
Originally posted by Edward
PS: These very people I am talking about forgot completely about their soft landing when Shihan threw them with lightning speed, so I guess it depends on Nage's goodwill as well.
Anyone here a student of Mitsunari Kanai sensei? I know some people at his dojo do this fall.

Any how, even if being able to take a soft breakfall is effective only 50% of the time, that's still 50% less impactive breakfall one has to take.
Originally posted by Mona
Slapping the dojo mat sure reduces the impact, but it can break your arm in real life, on the pavement...So I'm trying not to get used to slapping the mat.
I've actually taken self-propelled breakfalls onto hardwood floors -- it stung like crazy, but my arm was fine. Sure, it's not a concrete surface and, sure, it's not a "real" throw, but it let me know that it's not too horrible. Besides, if I were to get thrown onto concrete, I'd rather impact with my arm and break it if it's necessary to protect my "vital" organs...

Originally posted by Edward
The theory behind slapping the mat is that by swinging your arm downward, you will (and do) negate some of the downward movement of your body
Actually, I personally think the theory behind a slapping breakfall is not to counteract the fall while in the air but to dissipate the energy of the fall by taking the impact in one's arm. I think it's more like having a "smart" bumper on your car that springs out a fraction of a second before impact into a wall. This way, the bumper (or arm) takes the impact and not the body.

I can do the same thing for a forward roll to help diminish the forward momentum through a slap if necessary.

Anyone else have thoughts on this subject?

-- Jun

AikiAlf
12-05-2001, 11:17 AM
:triangle: :circle:

i think of slapping as blending with the ground. this is a bit confusing but if you think of uke in the air as stationary and the ground as rushing in , the slap is what matches speeds between uke and the earth.. what I've notices is that when the slap is timed right (and this is not something I can consciously summon, it just happens) it feels like turnign into a charging wall and then rolling off the charge.

this sort of image comes to my mind when I've had a nice fall of sorts. I'm not sure if it's useful but it does help take the fear out of breakfalls for me .

mj
12-05-2001, 06:00 PM
My opinion only.

Using the arm protects the body. No question.

However... outside, in 'real life' on hard surfaces, it is better to share the impact between the whole arm, fore and upper, and a part of the body, thigh preferably. Especially with harder falls.

Or, heresy, try to land face down and share the force between both fore-arms/hands.

And remember...for all landings, relax :)

Abasan
12-06-2001, 01:41 AM
Ever seen a Kung Fu exponent take a breakfall? They land flat on their backs (leg, body and all - all at once). Sometimes they use both their hands to preceed the fall, but its almost in sync.

Of course by presenting the mat with our whole body I suppose the force is dispersed over a bigger area, thus less impulse force and all that physic mumbo jumbo. The slap does help with the dispersion of some force. If you don't believe me, try a similar fall without preceeding with the slap. :D

As for the soft falls, sometimes I do it too, by accident of course. It happens when the arm is relaxed but extended and the angle of the fall is just nice that the arm sort of rolls on the floor instead of slapping directly on it. Of course if you get this wrong and your arm comes at a perpendicular angle, you're likely to break your arm. Unlike with a normal slap, which on hard floors, you'll mostly get bruises and internal bleeding. Since its not the organs but just the capilaries, these internal bleeding are nothing to worry about. Just hurts a bit. :p

And oh.. about that one foot swinging the baseball bat thing... I'm pretty sure I've read about this famous japanese baseball player who was once called the 'babe ruth' of Japan who uses that technique. His name starts with an S or something and his coach was a student of OSensei... or rather he attended OSensei's classes. It was quite effective apparently and even though he swung the bat, his balance was impeccable.

Duarh
12-06-2001, 03:05 AM
PeterR:
Jon I am sure you just slipped up but the whole point of the slap is to dissipate energy and thereby save the body from the full impact. Seems a bit silly to slap the hand after the body has landed.


I've seen a few higher ranks (don't remember who) slap one hand first (at landing) and the other after, in line with a movement of the body.My idea of this was 'conveying force' - the slap after the fall, IMO, provides an outlet for the kinetic energy left, making further movement or forceful suspendment in place unnecessary.

Then again, I may be as far away from the Truth :) as one can be/

Toms

unsound000
12-06-2001, 04:54 AM
Besides, if I were to get thrown onto concrete, I'd rather impact with my arm and break it if it's necessary to protect my "vital" organs...


Actually, I personally think the theory behind a slapping breakfall is not to counteract the fall while in the air but to dissipate the energy of the fall by taking the impact in one's arm. I think it's more like having a "smart" bumper on your car that springs out a fraction of a second before impact into a wall. This way, the bumper (or arm) takes the impact and not the body.

I can do the same thing for a forward roll to help diminish the forward momentum through a slap if necessary.


Anyone else have thoughts on this subject?

-- Jun [/B][/QUOTE]

Basically, I am saying what Steve and Mona are saying. The slap hitting first is going to damage you on a real surface. Really, it is just another way that we reach for the mat because we're afraid. You want your whole body to be like a wet noodle. If you reach/slap early then you are putting out a little stick to the ground and its going to break. You want your whole body to absorb the whole fall evenly and dissipate that energy.
Your vital organs are protected when you arch. This protects your kidneys.
If you dropped your car from a great height, then would you want the car to land on all 4 wheels at the same time or just one wheel and then the rest of the car? The second way your car is going to bounce, break a wheel, and angle off. Slapping is fine but it comes at the same time as the rest of the body. Don't reach for the mat.

unsound000
12-06-2001, 04:56 AM
Originally posted by PeterR

Jon I am sure you just slipped up but the whole point of the slap is to dissipate energy and thereby save the body from the full impact. Seems a bit silly to slap the hand after the body has landed.

Steve answers this better than I could. :)

unsound000
12-06-2001, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by Steve


Perhaps, though, slapping the mat helps stabilze your body by controling the angle at which your leg-hip-side-shoulder all roll across the ground. This probably has real value.

The best way to control the angle of your fall is to watch tori's eyes the whole way through the throw from start to finish. Believe it or not the rest of your body will follow what your head is doing. We all want to look at the mat. Do not look at the mat. Train yourself to avoid looking at it like its the arc of the convenant from Indiana Jones;) Also, if you are landing on uke's feet then swing your leg more.

deepsoup
12-06-2001, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by unsound000
You want your whole body to be like a wet noodle. If you reach/slap early then you are putting out a little stick to the ground and its going to break.

If you reach out for the floor, in such a way that your arm is like a 'stick' (ie, more perpendicular than parallel to the ground) it is indeed dangerous, but thats because you're doing it wrong.

My judo sensei used to say the arm should slap the mat like a wet rope. (I guess thats not a million miles from the 'wet noodle' you mention.)

Speaking of which, judo involves uke taking some very forceful falls.
As aikidoka talking about dealing with 'high' breakfalls, and dealing with being thrown strongly downward, I think we could learn a thing or two from the way they do things at the Kodokan.

Sean
x

akiy
12-06-2001, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by unsound000
Basically, I am saying what Steve and Mona are saying. The slap hitting first is going to damage you on a real surface.
I don't think I said that I slap before my body hits the ground; I slap, hopefully, at the same time. As I said before, I've taken some breakfalls (self-propelled) on hardwood floors and all I got out of it was that my hands stung for a bit. Just my limited experience...

As far as the soft breakfall goes, the hand does "reach" over and down to the ground before the rest of the body. It's hard to describe unless you've seen it, but students of Mitsunari Kanai sensei (8th dan, New England Aikikai) do this breakfall pretty regularly. There's also the basic equivalent of a soft breakfall for back breakfalls, too in which one arm "reaches" toward the ground to soften the blow. When done, these soft breakfalls are very much silent.

Your vital organs are protected when you arch. This protects your kidneys.
Can you explain this, please?
If you dropped your car from a great height, then would you want the car to land on all 4 wheels at the same time or just one wheel and then the rest of the car? The second way your car is going to bounce, break a wheel, and angle off. Slapping is fine but it comes at the same time as the rest of the body. Don't reach for the mat.
What if a giant balloon became inflated a fraction of a second before the impact (like an airbag in a car)? In a soft breakfall, that's what the arm reaching over is doing -- softening the fall to allow for the body to land softly. Another thing I've noticed with the soft breakfall is that the body doesn't land all in one piece but gradually starting from the hand, the arm, the shoulder, the torse, the hips, then the legs...

I guess you have to see it for yourself.

-- Jun

Mares
12-06-2001, 11:55 PM
Well for me the most important part is keeping my legs apart throughout the high fall. Especially on landing.

Speireag
12-07-2001, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by Abasan
And oh.. about that one foot swinging the baseball bat thing... I'm pretty sure I've read about this famous japanese baseball player who was once called the 'babe ruth' of Japan who uses that technique. His name starts with an S or something and his coach was a student of OSensei... or rather he attended OSensei's classes. It was quite effective apparently and even though he swung the bat, his balance was impeccable.

The player's name was Sadaharu O, if I remember correctly. There was an article by him in _Aikido and the New Warrior_, in which he describes how his coach would take instruction from O'Sensei and pass it along to O, because it was deemed too dangerous by the coach for Sadaharu to practice Aikido. Very amusing story. At one point, O'Sensei tells the coach, "You know, you're a lousy teacher!" or words to that effect.

-Speireag.

Speireag
12-07-2001, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by akiy
I've actually taken self-propelled breakfalls onto hardwood floors -- it stung like crazy, but my arm was fine. Sure, it's not a concrete surface and, sure, it's not a "real" throw, but it let me know that it's not too horrible. Besides, if I were to get thrown onto concrete, I'd rather impact with my arm and break it if it's necessary to protect my "vital" organs...

I second your opinion, Jun. I've also done self-propelled breakfalls onto hardwood, and onto pavement. Once or twice even when I was an adult, but I remember clearly doing them on the sidewalk outside of my grade school just after Judo class.

I took about four years of Judo, from fourth grade into eighth grade.

When I was about fourteen, and somewhat out of practice when it came to high-falls, I was riding an old barrel-chested horse with a friend. We were galloping, and that poor horse was carrying two teenagers, galumphing along. He was a bit stiff, not in his prime, and when he changed leads on a corner I nearly lost my seat, since I was sitting behind and didn't have the withers to grab with my hands or hold with my knees. I started to go off to the left, trying to hold on to what was essentially a round, living barrel. My riding partner reined him in, which made sense under the circumstances, but he didn't decelerate smoothly. With each decelerating bump I lost my balance a little more, until, just as we crossed over a driveway, I went off, head-over-heels, forward over my partner's left knee.

I landed in a high fall on pavement, from about five or six feet up, while doing around ten miles per hour. I picked myself up, dusted myself off, and examined my left palm, which stung a bit. There was a slight amount of scraping, but no blood. And I was fine; once the stinging stopped there were no ill effects at all.

About two years later I went off again, at a full gallop, when I was riding a stubborn fireball who unexpectedly turned ninety degrees in one stride. Head-over-heels onto packed sandy clay. I landed in a high fall, slid a little way, and walked away without injury. Onlookers said that I was as white as a ghost, though.

I think that everyone should learn to high fall at an early age, to prepare for later adventures. I had no thought, on either occasion, of what I intended to do. I just did it and figured it out afterward.

Now, I'd consider those to be "real" throws: unexpected, sudden, no conscious intent, and a five foot drop, at least. So I don't worry too much about whether high falls work. As long as your form is good, they work fine.

I think that sometimes we over-analyze in an attempt to figure out how things work, and handicap ourselves in the process. Based on my limited experience, a well-executed high fall won't result in a broken arm.

-Speireag.

unsound000
12-07-2001, 03:06 AM
I visited a Shodokan school once and they would ootz a lot. I remember reading that some people use ootz as a kiai and this is wrong. I think it explained that the use of "ootz" was more about proper etiquette, like walking into the dojo or something. You should kiai to get the air out of your lungs before you hit.


Originally posted by michaelkvance


Er? Do some dojos teach this? How interesting.

We had some fellows come to one of our intensives once, and whenever I would throw them (irimi-nage, tenchi-nage), they'd utter in a low, raspy voice, "uuuttzzzz". I kept thinking I had hurt them or something, very strange!

m.

unsound000
12-07-2001, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by deepsoup


Speaking of which, judo involves uke taking some very forceful falls.
As aikidoka talking about dealing with 'high' breakfalls, and dealing with being thrown strongly downward, I think we could learn a thing or two from the way they do things at the Kodokan.

Sean
x

I do Kodenkan Jujitsu which has close ties to Kodokan. Okazaki and Kano were good friends, I believe. We have some crazy throws (that's teh technical word for them)and a lot of the higher ranks did Judo prior to joining. All I have to say is that if someone is trying to slam you into the mat then kiai for all your worth and relax. All the Judo guys say that they learned how to throw people hard but they never learned how to take a hard throw and consequently, got hurt a lot.

unsound000
12-07-2001, 03:45 AM
If just your hands sting then that's a good fall in my book. Only your left hand should have got it though, I think because the right hand does not need to slap. If you always hold on to uke with the right hand on throws then it should not really do anything when you do your breakfall.
I have no idea how you do a silent backfall. We fall/jump backwards onto our shoulder blades. That can be silent?
I do understand what you are saying about the soft breakfall though, I think. (Good descripton). I see them as the kind of side falls we do, very soft and rolling along the body. When thrown we practice taking a complete straight over so we're not trained to land silent like that. I see now that it is safe. We do the straight over so eventually we learn to counter throw from uke's throw. I'm not sure you can do that from a soft breakfall, can you?
When beginners do a breakfall, they tend to fetal or bend at the waist and hold their breath. This is a natural "safety" position we're programmed to go into but when you do fall this way you put too much force on your lower back. If you arch the back and let out the air in your lungs, then you are protecting the kidneys from anything protruding on the ground and by a kiai you protect your lungs from getting the force of the fall. When you lie flat and arch your back then you will notice that there is a space along your lower back. We do this because no muscles protect the kidneys.

Thanks, good post.
Jon
~no more car metaphors plz;)


Originally posted by akiy

I don't think I said that I slap before my body hits the ground; I slap, hopefully, at the same time. As I said before, I've taken some breakfalls (self-propelled) on hardwood floors and all I got out of it was that my hands stung for a bit. Just my limited experience...

As far as the soft breakfall goes, the hand does "reach" over and down to the ground before the rest of the body. It's hard to describe unless you've seen it, but students of Mitsunari Kanai sensei (8th dan, New England Aikikai) do this breakfall pretty regularly. There's also the basic equivalent of a soft breakfall for back breakfalls, too in which one arm "reaches" toward the ground to soften the blow. When done, these soft breakfalls are very much silent.


Can you explain this, please?

What if a giant balloon became inflated a fraction of a second before the impact (like an airbag in a car)? In a soft breakfall, that's what the arm reaching over is doing -- softening the fall to allow for the body to land softly. Another thing I've noticed with the soft breakfall is that the body doesn't land all in one piece but gradually starting from the hand, the arm, the shoulder, the torse, the hips, then the legs...

I guess you have to see it for yourself.

-- Jun

Greg Jennings
12-07-2001, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Mona


Where to exactly?



To a bookstore. Buy and read a book about the Founder. You'll find that he had a mighty kiai and urged his students to develop one also.

Your comments were quite disrespectful to those of us who try to follow his advice.

Best,

Greg Jennings

Edward
12-07-2001, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by unsound000


I do Kodenkan Jujitsu which has close ties to Kodokan. Okazaki and Kano were good friends, I believe. We have some crazy throws (that's teh technical word for them)and a lot of the higher ranks did Judo prior to joining. All I have to say is that if someone is trying to slam you into the mat then kiai for all your worth and relax. All the Judo guys say that they learned how to throw people hard but they never learned how to take a hard throw and consequently, got hurt a lot.

I have done myself over 7 years judo and I can assure you of the following: Judo throws are designed to be safe. You whip Uke to the mat with a circular motion and you pull him up with the sleeve. The result: the body doesn't touch the mat like a dead weight, and the hand which is not pulled by Tori slaps the mat automatically because of the whipping action. As for Aikido, I have experienced the most painful falls so far. Aikido throws are deigned to hurt. Moreover, Aikidokas are never taught how to throw Uke safely. Falling safely is considered Uke's responsibility. I have been thrown so many time by Nage without controlling my fall, sometimes just leaving me hanging in the air so that I fall flat on my back. I think there is something to be improved in this respect.

Andy
12-07-2001, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Edward
Moreover, Aikidokas are never taught how to throw Uke safely.
Never?

PeterR
12-07-2001, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Andy

Never?
Edward falls into the trap of generalizations. I sure was taught to throw uke safely, in fact safety is emphasized.

mj
12-07-2001, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Edward


I have done myself over 7 years judo and I can assure you of the following: Judo throws are designed to be safe. You whip Uke to the mat with a circular motion and you pull him up with the sleeve...

hmmm....I don't see how you can get him on his back with this description.

Also, it's very rare for a judoka to have an arm free for breakfall.

shihonage
12-07-2001, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Edward

As for Aikido, I have experienced the most painful falls so far. Aikido throws are deigned to hurt. Moreover, Aikidokas are never taught how to throw Uke safely. Falling safely is considered Uke's responsibility. I have been thrown so many time by Nage without controlling my fall, sometimes just leaving me hanging in the air so that I fall flat on my back. I think there is something to be improved in this respect.

If you aren't ready to take full-speed ukemi, then don't attack at full speed.

unsound000
12-08-2001, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by Edward


I have done myself over 7 years judo and I can assure you of the following: Judo throws are designed to be safe.

They weren't saying that Judo was not safe overall but that there was some room for improvement. Specifically, they mentioned that uke usually tried to resist and counter to get the point or win. There was not as much focus on going with the flow and landing gently.

Andy
12-08-2001, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by PeterR
Edward falls into the trap of generalizations. I sure was taught to throw uke safely, in fact safety is emphasized.
Same in some places where I've trained.

Edward
12-08-2001, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by PeterR

Edward falls into the trap of generalizations. I sure was taught to throw uke safely, in fact safety is emphasized.

Hi Peter,

I apologize but it's just to raise an issue. I have to generalize. I am sure in some dojos they do teach that, but not in my experience. Perhaps because Shodokan has a strong Judo influence?

I have noticed that wherever I trained in Aikido, highfalls are painful, because my partners do not know how to control my falls, and I am talking about black belts. Coincidentally, my partners fall comfortably thanks to me taking the extra precaution of controlling their fall so that they land on their side.

Perhaps I am not good at falling yet as someone has suggested ;)

PeterR
12-08-2001, 10:24 AM
No worries Edward - I was just in a mood for a little dig.

I have noticed though that many Aikikai dojos strive for the big uke driven breakfalls. Tori's role is less important here but this is not good Aikido - it sure doen't help Tori develope skill. Proper control is not just a question of uke's safety but in Shodokan we ofen move directly into a pin - without good control that is very difficult.

Edward
12-08-2001, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by mj


hmmm....I don't see how you can get him on his back with this description.

Also, it's very rare for a judoka to have an arm free for breakfall.

So what can he be possibly doing with the other hand? :)

jimvance
12-08-2001, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by unsound000
All I have to say is that if someone is trying to slam you into the mat then kiai for all your worth and relax.

I think you are onto something. My sensei talks about the body actually learning to dissipate shocks from falls by ultra-quick muscular contraction followed by relaxation. He says that the body develops this ability through practice and conditioning, much like resistance or endurance training. I know what he is talking about because it takes me a while to get "back into shape" if I have been out of the dojo for a week or two, but not much beyond that.

Jim Vance

Edward
12-08-2001, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by unsound000


They weren't saying that Judo was not safe overall but that there was some room for improvement. Specifically, they mentioned that uke usually tried to resist and counter to get the point or win. There was not as much focus on going with the flow and landing gently.

I meant the training part. In competition, they will try to land in any possible position, even on their heads, but not on the back, so that they don't loose. Hence the injuries. But during practice, it's another story. Even during randori, you are supposed to fall for Tori if he executes a correct and well placed technique. However, Judo throws are not gentle. They are powerful and generate a lot of sound, yet they are not painful. Unless you land on someone else, that is :)

unsound000
12-09-2001, 01:36 AM
First, never try to control your partners fall. Just do the technique right and let uke do the rest. Trying to control where he lands is going to probably drive him into the mat and possibly at an angle because your "control" is adding momentum while he is in a fall. This is the same as someone slamming you into the mat with the hand holding your gi. Their hand should be pretty well relaxed or even limp at the end of the art.
As uke, you take care of falling by yourself. Tori can screw you up some but most of it you conrol. Swing your leg to get over and watch tori's eyes the whole time. Never, ever, ever, look at the mat. Looking, drives your body into it. Your right hand should never, (ever) let go of uke's lapel. Kiai and relax before hitting. By far, relaxation is the most important thing. Breathing deeply will help and the kiai will help a lot. Watch the most relaxed person in your dojo take falls, they should be bored getting up. This is what you want.
If these falls hurt, then you need to take care of yourself and try hard to do these things. Otherwise, you may ruin a perfectly good mat someday.




Originally posted by Edward


I have noticed that wherever I trained in Aikido, highfalls are painful, because my partners do not know how to control my falls, and I am talking about black belts. Coincidentally, my partners fall comfortably thanks to me taking the extra precaution of controlling their fall so that they land on their side.

Perhaps I am not good at falling yet as someone has suggested ;)

unsound000
12-09-2001, 01:44 AM
Actually, I can't take credit for the invention of the kiai;)
Sounds like you have a good sensei.

Originally posted by jimvance


I think you are onto something. My sensei talks about the body actually learning to dissipate shocks from falls by ultra-quick muscular contraction followed by relaxation. He says that the body develops this ability through practice and conditioning, much like resistance or endurance training. I know what he is talking about because it takes me a while to get "back into shape" if I have been out of the dojo for a week or two, but not much beyond that.

Jim Vance

Abasan
12-09-2001, 10:31 PM
When thrown we practice taking a complete straight over so we're not trained to land silent like that. I see now that it is safe. We do the straight over so eventually we learn to counter throw from uke's throw. I'm not sure you can do that from a soft breakfall, can you?

Opps... all this time I've been doing breakfalls that look almost like a mae ukemi. Although we do land on the side, it still entails uke to bend at the waist like he's going to roll. Sometimes, in a particularly fast and high throw, uke might even land on his folded feet similar to the position when you get up from a front roll.

Is this dangerous? I don't understand how you can fall straight on the floor with your back being arched. Wouldn't that hurt your lower back or at the least, your bum?:eek:

unsound000
12-10-2001, 02:05 AM
I bet you can counter throw from the type of fall..assuming I'm imagining it right.
The final postion of our fall: Lie down on the ground. Arch your back, protecting your kidneys from the ground. One leg is tucked and one foot is on the ball, ready to kick.
Ideally, foot, butt, upper back, etc. all hit at the same time. Your lower back never touches with the arch. Your butt would only hit hard if you fetal instead of arch.


Originally posted by Abasan


Opps... all this time I've been doing breakfalls that look almost like a mae ukemi. Although we do land on the side, it still entails uke to bend at the waist like he's going to roll. Sometimes, in a particularly fast and high throw, uke might even land on his folded feet similar to the position when you get up from a front roll.

Is this dangerous? I don't understand how you can fall straight on the floor with your back being arched. Wouldn't that hurt your lower back or at the least, your bum?:eek:

Tim Gerrard
09-01-2004, 06:02 PM
Besides, if I were to get thrown onto concrete, I'd rather impact with my arm and break it if it's necessary to protect my "vital" organs...[/B]

Although I agree, with the presrvation of vital organs, in a fight I would argue that your arms ARE the vital organs in the context of defending yourself, because with no defence your vital organs are going to take a kicking. I'd rather have a bruised kidney and pass blood for a few days (believe me I've been there on that one) than get my head stamped to oblivion because I'd broken my arm on impact. I'd argue that perhaps rolling out of an assault, providing you have enough space and are far enough away from an opponent. Or if there isn't enough space, then be prepared for a hard fall, and to follow up with a kick...you'll not notice the pain anyway when the adrenaline flows...

Lyle Laizure
09-03-2004, 12:02 PM
I think you should explain the ukemi to the children so they understand why you are slapping.

Shane Mokry
09-23-2004, 01:20 PM
[QUOTE=Jun Akiyama]
There are versions of the breakfall/highfall which does not require any slapping but are very soft. These soft breakfalls sometimes look as though the person is reaching "behind" them as they fall with their leading hand (which would have been used to slap in a traditional breakfall) to "cushion" their fall.

Jun,
I do this type of fall sometimes. In my experience it is a result of not knowing when the ground is coming. In other words, most of the time I know where the ground is due to a good solid connection between uke and tori all the way through to completion. It's the really slick techniques, when I can't feel anything from tori, that prompt me to feel for the ground. Those are my favorite by the way.

Sometime I make lots of noise, sometimes I don't...but I always get up. :D

Also I have to say that I agree with Greg....There is ALOT more to ukemi than just falling....but it is fun.

Shane

stuartjvnorton
09-23-2004, 10:14 PM
First, never try to control your partners fall. Just do the technique right and let uke do the rest. Trying to control where he lands is going to probably drive him into the mat and possibly at an angle because your "control" is adding momentum while he is in a fall.


Not sure I agree with this.
If I'm shite, I want uke to go where I want him to go, not where [s]he wants to go. I can't have much control over uke if they can pick & choose how & where they want to go.
It's uke's job to learn to take punishment so shite can learn to develop focused power and unleash it in a controlled manner (within reason of course. You shouldn't be smashing hapless uke far beyond their ukemi level. Shouldn't need to be said, but just in case I was about to be burnt in effigy).


As uke, you take care of falling by yourself..
Most definitely agree with that.



Re kiai: I went & watched a class with a friend last night, & one of their seniors had a kiai for every occasion. "he", "har", "ho", "so", & the list went on. Quite bizarre to my mind. :freaky: !
He would alternate them with each repetition of a technique:
"he", "har", "he"
"har", "he", "har"
I would have thought that doing a kiai so many times within a single, relatively short technique (pretty much 1 for every movement) would slow it all down to hell. Mind you, he was practising quite slowly.

Found it a bit puzzling...

PeterR
09-23-2004, 10:21 PM
Re kiai: I went & watched a class with a friend last night, & one of their seniors had a kiai for every occasion. "he", "har", "ho", "so", & the list went on. Quite bizarre to my mind. :freaky: !
He would alternate them with each repetition of a technique:
"he", "har", "he"
"har", "he", "har"

Found it a bit puzzling...
Maybe he was just enjoying himself.

Har de Har
Ho Ho Ho
He He

xuzen
09-23-2004, 11:42 PM
Hey people,

Just my two cents ramble...

7 years ago when I was doing the Hombu style, I strived to do silent type ukemi, because it was at that time, maybe due to the influence of then sensei, fashionable to emphasize finesse and grace. It was very nice for embu / demo because up from the spectator gallery it looked like ballet, very nice, very graceful. There was also minimal kiai, because it was considered a ruffian to be shouting all around especially in a public area (University sports centre).

Now, after being immersed in the Yoshinkan (the hard style) style for numerous years, my falls are not at all silent. My kiai is always present. The argument put forward by my current sensei with regards to slapping hard on the mat...

Slapping hard on the mat actually conditions ones hand to take hits and blocks. In actual fight, he explained, aikido technique 10%, the initial atemi and/or block should be 90%. What he meant, was the initial hit should in effect be the end of the confrontation (to persuade the adversary to discontinue his/her aggression). The remaining aikido technique is use as an osae (pin / immobilization) to permanently convince that further resistance is unnecessary on the uke's part.

With regards to kiai...from my own observation:

I kiai a lot these days, more so during hard randori. I find that it gives me courage to attack vigorously. It is more true when my shite is some 6 footer and 200 pounder black belter. Second benefit of kiai, it makes me less tired and helps me to stay in the randori game longer. I am actually quite psyche up after a round of good randori. I wonder if the kiai has anything to do with it.

Oh BTW for trivial sake, my kiai sounds like "hait" when attacking and "huh or oozt" when taking ukemi. I don't know why i have preference for such sound. As for some people using sound like "yip" or "yep ", I find it distasteful. To my ears it sound like the sound a puppy make when being punished by its owner.

Regards,
Boon.

P/S Incidently during work, without any thought I will also kiai "Lai" whenever a co-worker or customer call me. "Lai" is a colloquial term meaning "here I am at your service". Go figure :freaky: