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mathewjgano
07-10-2007, 01:39 PM
Is "jiu jitsu" a western written representation of "ju jutsu"? ...perhaps like the voiced "karadee" is to karate?

DonMagee
07-10-2007, 01:49 PM
Jiu is just how it was written before it became proper to spell it as Jiu. My aikido instructor has rank in a traditional jiujitsu, and his says Jiujitsu. However today it is spelled jujitsu. BJJ guys still use the old way of Jiujitsu. But there is no difference in meaning.

Dewey
07-10-2007, 02:07 PM
Is "jiu jitsu" a western written representation of "ju jutsu"? ...perhaps like the voiced "karadee" is to karate?

My understanding is that "jiu jitsu" was an early Western mis-transliteration that hung around, and that "ju jutsu" is the correct transliteration. However, I'm not a linguist, so I cannot confidently speak of this.

This brings up the current internet usage, which is fair game and impervious to the declarations of scholars & linguists. Apparently, the current usage of the "jiu jitsu" varient denotes specifically Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (often abbreviated BJJ), whose practitioners emphatically state that this is the proper spelling of that martial art. Whereas "ju jutsu" seems to denote the classical Japanese (koryu) martial arts. Often, you'll also see "ju jitsu"...which stirs up the confusion even more. On top of that, you often see it spelt as one word: jiujitsu, jujutsu, jujitsu.

Hopefully, we have some scholars & linguists here to straighten us out! Internet linguistics are always fascinating.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-10-2007, 02:14 PM
Jūjutsu is the most correct transliteration, from a linguistic standpoint. (It's the standard way of turning the Japanese characters into English ones.)

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu uses an alternate transliteration that's become standard for that art.

So if you say "I'm training in jiu-jitsu", it's either implied that you mean Gracie JJ, or that you're a wacky turn of the century fellow with a handlebar moustache out to study "this most peculiar oriental method of wrestling by which a smaller man may overcome a large ruffian, with bare hands or armed with a walking-stick."

Mike Haftel
07-10-2007, 02:31 PM
Yes, jujutsu is the "more correct" way of writting it in English based on the romanji transliteration. Jitsu, depending on the context and kanji can mean "day" or "truth."

So, jujitsu actually means soft/pliant/flexable truth/day...not the same thing as jujutsu.

The thing about Japanese is that each kanji can have more than one meaning and pronunciation depending on the context. And the same word/phrase/idea can be communicated by different kanji.

It's kind of annoying.

Ethan Weisgard
07-10-2007, 02:41 PM
The two words jitsu and jutsu are just that: two different words. They sound very similar in Japanese, but they have quite different meanings.

jitsu
(n) truth; reality; sincerity; fidelity; kindness; faith; substance; essence;

jutsu
(n,n-suf) art; means; technique

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-10-2007, 02:46 PM
perhaps like the voiced "karadee" is to karate?

Oh, and while we're on the subject of linguistics...that's written "Krotty". ;) And it looks like this.

http://www.karateangels.com/zz1.jpg
Fig. 1. Krotty.

JAMJTX
07-10-2007, 05:37 PM
Jiujitsu was the early westernization, Jujutsu is more correct. But I have been seeing Jyujutsu used.

Carl Thompson
07-10-2007, 05:38 PM
Jūjutsu is the most correct transliteration, from a linguistic standpoint. (It's the standard way of turning the Japanese characters into English ones.)

I originally thought the exact same thing. However, since I've been in Ibaraki-ken, I've heard some pretty senior sensei refer to it as jū-jitsu! :eek: Eventually I collared one of them and asked for an explanation. I was told (by a native-speaking 5th dan Japanese aikidoka) that the pronunciation can be either jū-jutsu or jū-jitsu! However, when you write it in Japanese, it is jū-jutsu. I wonder if it's an Ibaragi-ben thing?
:crazy:
Maybe Jun can clarify this?

Walker
07-10-2007, 07:38 PM
C'mon guys, everyone knows the "correct" way to write it is:
柔術
or failing that...
じゅうじゅつ

Seemingly any romanization is going to be a compromise and jujutsu breaks rules in the two forms of romaji I am familiar with. On the other hand it is now a loan word in the English language and interestingly enough the learned fellows of Oxford put "jujitsu" (pronunciation joojit' soo) in their desk dictionary. Crazy Brits!

One thing that English speakers often miss which is important is the long "U" sound of the first part vs. the short "u" of the second. That is if you want any chance of a Japanese person understanding what you are trying to talk about. (perish the thought)

Chris Li
07-10-2007, 08:28 PM
Jūjutsu is the most correct transliteration, from a linguistic standpoint. (It's the standard way of turning the Japanese characters into English ones.)

Strictly speaking, there is no standard method of romanization, especially since the only reason that you would ever romanize a word is for it to be read by non-Japanese. However, "Jiu-Jitsu" is an older form that is generally regarded as being incorrect.

Best,

Chris

Dewey
07-10-2007, 10:07 PM
My understanding is that "jiu jitsu" was an early Western mis-transliteration that hung around, and that "ju jutsu" is the correct transliteration. However, I'm not a linguist, so I cannot confidently speak of this...
Hopefully, we have some scholars & linguists here to straighten us out! Internet linguistics are always fascinating.

Strictly speaking, there is no standard method of romanization, especially since the only reason that you would ever romanize a word is for it to be read by non-Japanese. However, "Jiu-Jitsu" is an older form that is generally regarded as being incorrect.

Best,

Chris

Thanks, Chris! I was hoping you'd weigh in on this. But is "jujutsu" an acceptable translation?

Carl Thompson
07-10-2007, 11:40 PM
It seems like….

Writing in Japanese

Kanji: 柔術
Hiragana: じゅうじゅつ
Katakana: ジュージュツ
Romaji: jūjutsu
juujutsu
jyuu-jyutsu... basically the kana represented in Roman characters according to whatever system you follow.


Pronouncing in Japanese:

kana syllables: じゅうじゅつ or じゅうじつ(in Ibaraki at least)
romaji: jūjutsu or jūjitsu (in Ibaraki at least)


Writing in English: jiujitsu, jiujutsu, jujutsu.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jujitsu

Pronouncing in English: As per the dictionary or the Japanese way. As has been pointed out, we tend to write and pronounce all kinds of Japanese loanwords differently in English -- which seems fair enough, since it's a different language and doesn't have the same patterns as Japanese.

It was the variant of the Japanese that caught my attention.

Mike Haftel
07-10-2007, 11:40 PM
Strictly speaking, there is no standard method of romanization, especially since the only reason that you would ever romanize a word is for it to be read by non-Japanese. However, "Jiu-Jitsu" is an older form that is generally regarded as being incorrect.

Best,

Chris

According to every Japanese language book I've read and every native Japanese language teacher I've had, there is a schoolastic, standard method of romanization. It is called romanji.

While it is not 100% perfect, there is a specific way to write out Japanese katakana, hiragana, and kanji in English.

Ju jutsu
Jiu jutsu
Jiu jitsu
Ju jitsu
Jiu Jiutsu
Jyu jutsu
etc...

They are all different. While, in English, they may mean the same thing, in the context of specifc romanization of Japanese, they are pronounced differently, written differently, and mean different things. Some of them aren't even real Japanese words at all. Hell, the pitch of each syllable matters as well. Going up or down at different parts of the word MAY change its meaning.

mathewjgano
07-11-2007, 12:42 AM
Thanks folks! ..particularly the correct way to spell krotty! :D
Take care,
Matt

Chris Li
07-11-2007, 01:17 AM
According to every Japanese language book I've read and every native Japanese language teacher I've had, there is a schoolastic, standard method of romanization. It is called romanji.

There are at least three major (and very different) systems of romaji (there's no "n" in the word, by the way), and a number of minor ones. No one system is in standard use in Japan - just walking around Tokyo you'll see any number of variations.

Best,

Chris

Dirk Hanss
07-11-2007, 01:35 AM
According to every Japanese language book I've read and every native Japanese language teacher I've had, there is a schoolastic, standard method of romanization. It is called romanji.

While you are teaching the whole world about correct spelling, please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romaji, especially the last sentence of the first section. (wikipedia is not a proof, but in line to what I learnt from many sources.

And while there is not only one standard for romanization, there is one choosen as official by the japanese Government, but not before 1937. Jiu Jitsu came to the West before that date, so some people chose a transliteration, which they thought would be appropriate. So I do not think it is wrong or right, it may be outfashioned.

In Germany some martial artists created a combination of several known arts for law enforcement purposes in the 1960s, which they called Ju-Jutsu (pronounced Yoo-Yutsu). Thus the traditional jujutsuka stayed with their traditional transliteration. Jiu Jitsu, Ju Jitsu or Jiu Jutsu (depending on style and/or organisation).

But yes, if you try to retranslate with something like http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html , you might get funny meanings.

Best regards

Dirk

DonMagee
07-11-2007, 06:35 AM
According to every Japanese language book I've read and every native Japanese language teacher I've had, there is a schoolastic, standard method of romanization. It is called romanji.

While it is not 100% perfect, there is a specific way to write out Japanese katakana, hiragana, and kanji in English.

Ju jutsu
Jiu jutsu
Jiu jitsu
Ju jitsu
Jiu Jiutsu
Jyu jutsu
etc...

They are all different. While, in English, they may mean the same thing, in the context of specifc romanization of Japanese, they are pronounced differently, written differently, and mean different things. Some of them aren't even real Japanese words at all. Hell, the pitch of each syllable matters as well. Going up or down at different parts of the word MAY change its meaning.

Don't forget my friends favorite art....jew jutsu! He won't tell me what it involves, but it has something to do with that little hat everyone in his family wears.

Mike Haftel
07-11-2007, 07:37 AM
Yes, I spelled Romaji wrong. It happens.

My point was there being three different versions of it makes little difference. The fact that at least one system exists in the first place is enough for the purpose of this particular topic.

Regardless of which system of Romaji you choose, whithin that system is a specific, systematic way to write and pronounce Japanese.

However, it wouldn't be very productive to write a word out one way but, in actuallity, have it mean something totally different. Like, "jujutsu" and "jujitsu." Especially if you pronounce them differently, which WOULD make them different words.

For example, I recently came across a relative's katana. In translating the signature, the last character in the date was hi/jitsu. That's how it is pronounced, at least. If it had said jutsu, it would mean something totally different, making the date reading make very little sense: "An art/skill in August, the 2nd year of keian." vs. "A day in August, the 2nd year of keian."

越後の紙藤原蟻平策
慶安二年八月日

But, yes. Even the Japanese government is not consistent with their English writing version of Japanese words. I've just received a correspondence from a local school board in Japan and they spelled the name of their town at least three different ways in the same letter. :)

Josh Lerner
07-11-2007, 01:20 PM
Don't forget my friends favorite art....jew jutsu! He won't tell me what it involves, but it has something to do with that little hat everyone in his family wears.

No, no. You are thinking of judo. Out of which Japanese bagels are made. Specific recipes are found in the "tora no maki", of several koryu. More information can be found here -

http://http://www5.ocn.ne.jp/~magi9/isracame.htm

Josh

Aiki Liu
07-19-2007, 04:13 AM
Id guess that the "i" in "jiu" was the original translators method of extending the vowel sound of ju. Nowadays most people would write juu or ju with a little line over the u that I cant be bothered to add but in old texts ive seen it written as jyu and jiu etc.
As for the jitsu - Im guessing that was probably just people not bothering to pronounce jutsu in English and it stuck.
But like everyone says theres loads of ways to write Japanese in English.

Ian Williams
07-22-2007, 04:50 AM
Greetings all.

I am hoping someone here can help. I am looking for a large size, good quality kanji representation of Ju-Jitsu for a tattoo design I am working on.

Just about anything I can find on the web is either commercial or of very low size/quality.

I'd be very grateful if someone could point me to such an image/resource.

Thanks in anticipation.
Ian Williams (3rd Kyu,Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu Jujitsu)

Carl Thompson
07-22-2007, 05:35 PM
I guess we're still on topic. Here you go mate…

Carl

Ian Williams
07-22-2007, 11:05 PM
Thank's so much