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Thomas Campbell
07-06-2007, 06:04 PM
A number of ideas proposed in the "Baseline Skillset" thread made reference to fascia and internal connection. This webpage and related pages at the site provides some illustration of the biological basis for the discussion:

http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore/tensegrity/fascialfabric

Mike Sigman
07-07-2007, 07:35 AM
That book is an OK reference book about fascia, Tom, but it doesn't really tell you much that is useful. Roughly speaking, the strength from the ground goes through the bones (ki of Earth) and the "connective", "down-pulling" strength (ki of Heaven) goes through the fascia/ki arrangement (which is more complex than that simple statement implies).

Just saying "strength through the bones" makes someone want to say "of course... everyone knows that", but the kokyu/jin strength through the bones is something different and not part of the normal mechanics of the body. That's the jin/kokyu-force area and I'd recommend people focus on that before they get into the fascia stuff. Dan's discussions and training are pretty obviously more around the jin/kokyu area and that's the correct thing for people to learn first, IMO. There is no good book that adequately describes the how's of jin/kokyu... they're all to vague and cryptic.

If someone wants a sketchy overview of the basic Shaolin approach to "fascia" training (you really can't do jin without fascia and its breath training.... you can't really do correct fascia training without jin), then I'd recommend getting a copy of Mantak Chia's book "Iron Shirt Chi Kung I). It's not complete or fully coherent, but it will give a good intro and pictures to give people an idea.

I think I mentioned this before somewhere, but one of the exercises Tohei Sensei described in "Ki in Daily Life" is actually a breath/fascia exercise, although he doesn't say that clearly. Someone else posted the comment that Tohei attributed that particular exercise to Ueshiba Sensei.... that would make sense, since it is essentially a power-gung.

Regardless, it doesn't hurt people to look around. Ueshiba certainly did.... Aikido is founded on the Ki of Earth and the Ki of Heaven, the famous Yin-Yang dichotomy.

Best.

Mike Sigman

gdandscompserv
07-07-2007, 08:46 AM
Thanks Thomas.

Haowen Chan
07-07-2007, 09:30 AM
I think I mentioned this before somewhere, but one of the exercises Tohei Sensei described in "Ki in Daily Life" is actually a breath/fascia exercise, although he doesn't say that clearly. Someone else posted the comment that Tohei attributed that particular exercise to Ueshiba Sensei.... that would make sense, since it is essentially a power-gung.


Could you tell me which exercise, in which edition of this book? Is it a breathing exercise? Much thanks!

Mike Sigman
07-07-2007, 09:49 AM
Could you tell me which exercise, in which edition of this book? Is it a breathing exercise? Much thanks!I forget, but I think someone said that these 2 are not in every printing of the book. The version I have is a seventh printing and it's the first 2 breathing exercises in chapter 7.... one in seiza and the other in standing.

Incidentally, I just remembered something about "Anatomy Trains" that I noticed when I read the book. The author pretty much lays out these "paths" of fascia without saying how he arrived at the idea of the paths, but it looks pretty obvious that he simply borrowed the ancient muscle-tendon pathways (the precursors to the acupuncture meridians). The muscle-tendon channels can hook up in different combinations and that's seen in Mantak Chia's book in the drawings of the standing postures.

FWIW

Mike

Haowen Chan
07-07-2007, 10:02 AM
Thanks Mike. Aha, is it this one? Damn and blast, I have the brand new version of the book which revised this exercise out of it.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12124

I'm also going to try the exercise you suggested in post 2 of this really excellent thread. I'm finding I can feel the pressure more strongly with this exercise than the Ki society exercises.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10809

Mike Sigman
07-07-2007, 10:16 AM
Thanks Mike. Aha, is it this one? Damn and blast, I have the brand new version of the book which revised this exercise out of it. Damn and blast is correct and succinct. Those exercises should be taught (fully and correctly; Tohei's version/description is almost wilfully incomplete, IMO) in every Aikido class. If they were good enough for O-Sensei's strength and health, they should pass muster for Aikido students, I'd think. I'm also going to try the exercise you suggested in post 2 of this really excellent thread. I'm finding I can feel the pressure more strongly with this exercise than the Ki society exercises.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10809Yeah, but...... once you understand that feeling, you'll be able to maximize what is supposed to be done in the exercises in the Tohei book. The principle is the same. There's an ancient Japanese post about Misogi being the way of concentrating the ki/breath behind the navel that I put up once on AikiWeb to see if anyone caught it. My description in that post #2 was how to do exactly that, but I'm not sure many people caught that, either. ;)

Best.

Mike

DH
07-08-2007, 06:09 AM
I think I mentioned this before somewhere, but one of the exercises Tohei Sensei described in "Ki in Daily Life" is actually a breath/fascia exercise, although he doesn't say that clearly. Someone else posted the comment that Tohei attributed that particular exercise to Ueshiba Sensei.... that would make sense, since it is essentially a power-gung.

Regardless, it doesn't hurt people to look around. Ueshiba certainly did.... Aikido is founded on the Ki of Earth and the Ki of Heaven, the famous Yin-Yang dichotomy.

Best.

Mike Sigman
I have the old version of that book somewhwere. WIthout looking it up again, I remember his methods not discussing what is really being trained at all. I just don't feel like finding it. FWIW that exercise is not a Ueshiba "invention" or discovery. He got it from Takeda. It's part of the DR in/yo ho breath-power method. It's mentioned briefly and incompletely in Certa's new book on his training in mainline DR, with a picture of Tokimune Takeda doing it-think seated in seiza. Which is not a good way to do it IMO. It's interesting to read and hear those of the mainline denouncing certain aiki/Ki training. And then they publish a picture of their head chef doing just that. It would be fascinating to see just how many of any given art actually knew anything at all about the internal workings of their own art.

Mike Sigman
07-08-2007, 07:56 AM
FWIW that exercise is not a Ueshiba "invention" or discovery. He got it from Takeda. It's part of the DR in/yo ho breath-power method. Where did Takeda get it? It's a fairly common procedure and there are many variations (I spotted it without any real effort and I didn't study with Takeda). Ueshiba may well have gotten it from Takeda, but then again he may not have, since Ueshiba obviously got some other things from other people in his life. Let's just leave it at "Ueshiba may have gotten it from Takeda", since that's the best we can logically do.... if we have to even bring it into the discussion. Again, I can't fathom why you seem compulsively intent on wresting all credit from Ueshiba and giving it to Takeda. Do a little of your "huggin' and making friends" here and just let the old men be.

How about chipping in to the topic? If you understand the standing breathing method, why not describe what's being done, precisely. I'm sure you must be aware that there are some details that haven't been mentioned like how the forces are directed, etc. Why not tell us more about the procedure since it's part of something you studied?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

DH
07-08-2007, 08:54 AM
Again, I can't fathom why you seem compulsively intent on wresting all credit from Ueshiba and giving it to Takeda. Do a little of your "huggin' and making friends" here and just let the old men be.
Regards,
Mike Sigman

Why? Becaue you seem compulsively intent on bringing up Tohei and Ueshiba and just about NEVER talking about Takeda.
There is a history of Westerners being lied to and seeing an attempt at eliminating the connection of Daito ryu to Aikido. I've not forgotten it. To me much of your writing is more of the same on any other day. I think we need to be-truly- bypartison and all emcompassing. I am attempting to be more inclusive-not less.
If I took the entire summation of your writing here, thousands of posts, you may have a handful- I doubt even that-that mentions any, connection of internal skills from Takeda to Ueshiba.
I personally find it interesting in that any man who was alive then stated clearly and bluntly that Takeda's skills were superior-even though they didn't like him. There are other stories of men who trained with Sagawa or Kodo and Ueshiba. They just are not known. They found the DR guys internal skills superior as well. So it seems comical to be stressing the skills of a lessor light in a lineage of giants.
So no big deal, But its why I keep bringing it up.

If you want to suggest "Let old men be"
Then start with yourself instead of nitpick on me. ;)
I think I mentioned this before somewhere, but one of the exercises Tohei Sensei described in "Ki in Daily Life" is actually a breath/fascia exercise, although he doesn't say that clearly. Someone else posted the comment that Tohei attributed that particular exercise to Ueshiba Sensei.... that would make sense, since it is essentially a power-gung.

So someone said somwhere something about maybe Tohei learned this from Ueshiba.....and you quote it. Why are you compulsive about brining up Tohei and Ueshiba?
OK. Fine by me then. Let your knowledge of the connection stop there. I won't argue. It doesn't really matter any more anyway:D

Mike Sigman
07-08-2007, 09:48 AM
Why? Becaue you seem compulsively intent on bringing up Tohei and Ueshiba and just about NEVER talking about Takeda.
There is a history of Westerners being lied to and seeing an attempt at eliminating the connection of Daito ryu to Aikido. I've not forgotten it. To me much of your writing is more of the same on any other day. I think we need to be-truly- bypartison and all emcompassing. I am attempting to be more inclusive-not less.
If I took the entire summation of your writing here, thousands of posts, you may have a handful- I doubt even that-that mentions any, connection of internal skills from Takeda to Ueshiba.
I personally find it interesting in that any man who was alive then stated clearly and bluntly that Takeda's skills were superior-even though they didn't like him. There are other stories of men who trained with Sagawa or Kodo and Ueshiba. They just are not known. They found the DR guys internal skills superior as well. So it seems comical to be stressing the skills of a lessor light in a lineage of giants.
So no big deal, But its why I keep bringing it up.

If you want to suggest "Let old men be"
Then start with yourself instead of nitpick on me. ;)

So someone said somwhere something about maybe Tohei learned this from Ueshiba.....and you quote it. Why
are you compulsive about brining up Tohei and Ueshiba?
OK. Fine by me then. Let your knowledge of the connection stop there. I won't argue. It doesn't really matter any more anyway:DOK, let's try and do it like we do on the big-boys' forums, then. You made a flat assertion that Ueshiba learned those qigongs/breathing-methods from Takeda. How do you know that? Source? Where do you think I learned about them... Takeda? There are other sources and Ueshiba certainly studied around.

I completely knew from Aikido books about Takeda Sokaku long before you ever came around trying to set the record straight, so the idea that no credit is given to Takeda is simply wrong.

Thirdly, what is your connection with Daito Ryu that you have such a compelling concern about Takeda? You didn't study with Takeda and no one seems to know who you've ever spent much time studying with. How about explaining why you're so interested in this one aspect of correcting Aikido people on the antecedents?

Lastly, back on topic... once again I have asked if you can contribute facts about exactly how to do something. In the past, you've consistently gone quiet when asked if you knew specifically how to do something. How about a meaningful response? After all, none of this part is "secret" and you've indicated that you can teach "advanced".

Regards,

Mike Sigman

DH
07-08-2007, 11:42 AM
The big boys forums?
Wait now...is this where ..I... cry foul, that you're getting personal like you continually do;) after throwing out these off-hand little digs to people.
You read like a kid in need trying to get a seat at the grown-ups table What was that you said to Rob "You'll spank them in their bums, while Rob dangles the carrots? I think that speaks for itself, without any commentary from me.

My point about your posting history of this topic is valid.
My posts about Ueshiba and Takeda are complete enough to be understood. While you have a workable knowledge in others areas, your rebuttals about this topic lack any real substance and demonstrate that you simply don't know the subject well enough. I advocate both for Ueshiba and/or for Takeda as the subject warrants, with the intent that they are both looked at. Your agreement or ability to see that is not required.

jennifer paige smith
07-08-2007, 12:13 PM
I believe that all of these methods were and are inspired of Nature. That is a source larger than any person, yet can help to explain why so many people from so many traditions from such distant lands have come up with the same 'stuff'. I don't really care 'who' or 'what' as it is most important to engage the 'how'. So, yeah, offer up your methods so that others may benefit from your practice.

Some of my practices in this area are personal and unusual. For example, just stand on the beach, if you've got one, with your knees bent and face toward the ocean and breathe. And monitor the change in your own physiology. I get heavy and I relax and I feel like the wave moving through me. When I practice on the mat I use the powers of recall to put me back in this state and I draw others into this state with me.

jennifer paige smith
07-08-2007, 12:27 PM
There are also lots of other ways to look at tensegrity.
Here is a basic:http://www.tensegrity.com/

Here is something for the more tribal at heart:
http://www.castaneda.com/

The more directions we can come at an idea, the more people can get their teeth into.

Mike Sigman
07-08-2007, 12:41 PM
The big boys forums?
Wait now...is this where ..I... cry foul, that you're getting personal like you continually do;) after throwing out these off-hand little digs to people. Yeah, well, you may not realize that there are established formats of discussion and that many discussion groups have relied for centuries on them, but that's what I call the big boys' forums. The grownup forums where rules of debate and proof are adhered to, rather than pseudo-martial-protocols where suddenly debate is avoided by discussion of "secrets", "I don't like your posting style" (without considering how sickening one's own posting style is), and "I deserve respect because I make some appeal to authority", and so on. If you're unaware of the difference, please don't argue with me about it... go find out about it because I assure you that's more the norm than the "posting style" of many people on so-called martial-arts forums. My point about your posting history of this topic is valid. Really? I know this will go the way of other demands for sources in the past, but can you show me an example, for once, rather than just arguing by assertion? That's how the "big boys" do it, Dan. My posts about Ueshiba and Takeda are complete enough to be understood. While you have a workable knowledge in others areas, your rebuttals about this topic lack any real substance and demonstrate that you simply don't know the subject well enough. Great. So, SECOND REQUEST FOR SOURCE: How do you know for sure that Ueshiba learned those breathing techniques from Takeda? Back it up, since you "know the subject well enough".

Lastly, again, for the umpteenth time... let's see your solid knowledge about the breathing techniques, as I've requested in the last several posts. The "big boys" don't go silent when asked for specifics, Dan. Nor do they suddenly pull their posts, and so on. Nor do they immediately shift the discussion to someone's personality. A lot of the discussion about "digs" and "posting style" have nothing to do with legitimate conversation, but more about someone not playing martial role-play games with *some* of the other posters. Best way to avoid all the friction? Discuss within a defined framework. The recognized framework is the "big boys" rules for discussion, which are the basis for any legitimate forum in English-speaking formats.

Someone on the QiJin forum recently brought up your name as someone who they'd like to see post on that forum. I asked them what you'd ever explained on any other forum in terms of "how to" and so forth. The point being that making assertions, avoiding answers to direct questions, pulling your posts, and claiming "secrets" as a reason not to answer questions would simply cause legitimate posters with legitimate knowledge to get irritated. You cry "foul"? On what grounds? If you have a factual and legitimate beef, backed up by quoted sources and examples, put it out there. You'll find suddenly that you understand why my "posting style" follows a certain pattern.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

DH
07-08-2007, 01:51 PM
Lastly, again, for the umpteenth time... let's see your solid knowledge about the breathing techniques, as I've requested in the last several posts. The "big boys" don't go silent when asked for specifics, Dan.
While I simply cannot imagine talking to someone like you do, I will offer that actually, Mike the "real" big boys, not some amatuers on a forum, always have witheld their knoweldge. Which has been the source of the problem for so long.
I do enough. I show enough. Where it counts. up close and personal. Since it can't be learned here and is difficult enough to learn in person -whats the point really?

Someone on the QiJin forum recently brought up your name as someone who they'd like to see post on that forum.
No thank you. I'm sure I have nothing to contribute. Anyone who thinks I do is most likely mistaken.

You'll find suddenly that you understand why my "posting style" follows a certain pattern./QUOTE]
Regards,
Mike Sigman
Actually I think I never will. I don't think like you, nor do I want to. We're just different in our approach to people. Due to that our attempts at communicating here become irrelevant bandwidth.

Mike Sigman
07-08-2007, 02:32 PM
I do enough. I show enough. Where it counts. up close and personal. Since it can't be learned here and is difficult enough to learn in person -whats the point really? Actually, I wonder what the point is, also. If you're not going to discuss anything coherently, even simple basics, why do you post so often what you can do? You've been asked that before by other people, IIRC.Actually I think I never will. I don't think like you, nor do I want to. We're just different in our approach to people. Due to that our attempts at communicating here become irrelevant bandwidth.Notice you haven't answered a single direct question about your claims. Look back over recent posts. You've made assertions. When asked for support to those assertions, the best you can come up with is that you don't think like me, attempting once again to make it a personality issue rather than address the point. It's juvenile. You don't even attempt to explain it because it can't be explained, unless your oblique intimation that you're a "big boy" in the martial-arts world is what you want to leave with us.

Let me say something else about the QiJin forum, which I agree is not for you and I didn't extend an invitation, so you needn't thank me. The forum is a private, closed forum so legitimate martial artists with legitimate knowledge can post comfortably, keeping their knowledge to a known and limited audience. The second reason it's kept private is because of a well-known problem about people with a little knowledge who play it up as a lot of knowledge and who simply want to gather information in order to bolster their own status as a "teacher". It would be OK if someone legitimately knew things, but too often there are teachers who teach their own made-up interpretations of things, just using the buzzwords to legitimize their positions. We simply want to avoid being a part of giving people like that some academic ideas with which to potentially mislead other people who really want to learn. It's bad enough when people are missing crucial information; it's equally bad if people get one step closer and then disappointingly get led down a wrong road. I mentioned that possibility when I gave my opinion that care has to be taken that "kokyu" learned to advance in Aikido isn't the wrong brand of kokyu for Aikido (in a post or two made within the last year).

The buzzword phenomena is pretty common and the limited abilities taught as the whole of the abilities is another common problem. In Taiji, there are scads of "teachers" who have "been teaching for many years" but who don't even have basic jin skills. These people can be seen at many workshops, going around correcting peoples' forms, seemingly oblivious to the fact that they've never gotten to first base themselves. The same phenomenon is true in Aikido. *That* is equally a part of the problem as much as is the problem you pointed about the expert martial artists who don't pass their knowledge along,

I've asked directly for you to support direct assertions that you've made. I've asked in a number of cases over a couple of years. You simply don't reply, even though it's in black and white that you've made the assertion. While you may take the position, along with a small number of cohorts, that you don't support your own assertions because it's someone else's fault, I doubt your argument is being bought by a lot of people who read that position from you.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

DH
07-08-2007, 08:51 PM
Me and my cohorts? I have cohorts here?

I wasn't confused. I chose to answer and address your sarcasm toward me and specifically ignore the other points.
You actually, almost got through an entire post to me without a smartass remark, congratulations.
Judging by your replies to me regarding stretching in the silk reeling posts as well as the information you offered in the breath thread. You either have a ways to go yet, or you're holding back information...gee what a surprise that would be huh? Why...then you would be doing what you're accusing me of.;)
Say it ain't so.....we both know it's so.

Thanks for the description and stated goals of the Qjing list. I already know all about it. I can only hope it's an improvement over the Neijia list. I'm glad you're enjoying it and I truly hope it accomplishes all your goals,
I don't want to keep doing this. Its off topic
And I see no point in P.M's.
See ya

Mike Sigman
07-08-2007, 09:35 PM
Judging by your replies to me regarding stretching in the silk reeling posts as well as the information you offered in the breath thread. You either have a ways to go yet, or you're holding back information...gee what a surprise that would be huh? Why...then you would be doing what you're accusing me of.;) Say it ain't so.....we both know it's so. Dan, I have the record of answering questions from others straight out. If you want to make an issue of who knows what, you're going to have to answer questions or ask intelligent ones that show you know what you're talking about.. the same questions I've asked point blank and you've been unable to answer. Remember though that you've made other comments that show what you know.

So let's not play silly games, please. If you want to play, you can't bet mystery money. The problem isn't me... I've been straight out with answers, drawings, and descriptions. The problem is that you want to pretend that you're holding four aces.

Back to those questions... they've built up quite a bit. No matter what you know, I know, or anybody knows, nobody knows it all. If the guys who don't have any ki or kokyu skills can wind up ultimately having to face it, the guy with a few ki and kokyu skills will also face someone who knows more. That guy in turn will face someone who knows more, and so on. Once people start playing like they already know everything (and this includes all of us), we immediately begin to set up our on embarrassment. My suggestion... quit playing martial role games and stick to the issue alone.

Best.

Mike Sigman

Upyu
07-08-2007, 09:49 PM
I believe that all of these methods were and are inspired of Nature. That is a source larger than any person, yet can help to explain why so many people from so many traditions from such distant lands have come up with the same 'stuff'. I don't really care 'who' or 'what' as it is most important to engage the 'how'. So, yeah, offer up your methods so that others may benefit from your practice.


Its just my opinoin, but I'd advise against throwing out the kind of examples you used Jennifer.
Sure some of the practices are inspired in part by "nature" and observing it.

However, there's a huge amount of analysis and observation thrown into the mix. To be blunt, anyone that I've met that's *really* good didn't get better by simply shutting their eyes, relax, wave their arms around and use self hypnosis to get better.

Constant analysis and thinking about how this stuff works is a requirement, just like any other subject.

The relax and let it come approach is, taking someone else's words "the slow boat to china"

If that's not what you meant I apologize though. I just had to throw that out there.

My two cents.

yosushi
07-08-2007, 11:49 PM
Do you practice much the rowing exercices ( moving one point forward and throwing wrists forward/down, putting one point back and putting wrist back to side ).
I was told this is a misogi exercise good to get ride of excess tension in the shoulders, get ride of headache ( hang-over ), or develop better breathing.
This is the exercise you practice sometimes with someone holding both of your wrists, standing in front of you.

I`ll check the links you sent on fascia and tensegrity, thanks for your posts.

Haowen Chan
07-09-2007, 07:02 AM
Do you practice much the rowing exercices ( moving one point forward and throwing wrists forward/down, putting one point back and putting wrist back to side ).


Two good threads on funekogi aka torifune undo:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1867

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11801

I do believe the rowing exercise has less to do with fascia development and more to do with the skills of rooting/grounding/body structure/intention dvelopment. But that's my baby-level understanding so I may be wrong.

jennifer paige smith
07-09-2007, 11:32 AM
Its just my opinoin, but I'd advise against throwing out the kind of examples you used Jennifer.
Sure some of the practices are inspired in part by "nature" and observing it.

However, there's a huge amount of analysis and observation thrown into the mix. To be blunt, anyone that I've met that's *really* good didn't get better by simply shutting their eyes, relax, wave their arms around and use self hypnosis to get better.

Constant analysis and thinking about how this stuff works is a requirement, just like any other subject.

The relax and let it come approach is, taking someone else's words "the slow boat to china"

If that's not what you meant I apologize though. I just had to throw that out there.

My two cents.

Apology accepted.
You can assume, if you must, that I am speaking of augmenting formal practice when I speak of such things. No extremes. No Either-Or. This is something that one can Add to their lives.
I agree with you that you can't just sit back and wait. And I agree that critical analysis is awesome. I also think that nature is a worthy subject for such intrigue, study and analysis.
I would appreciate people spending a little more time thinking about how these practices, like the one I wrote about above, are valuable and are a great subject for critical analysis. Such practices have been integrated into common medicine for the treatment of Cancer and Heart disease to powerful effect. I would like to hear more people speaking about the power of nature and science combined.
Besides, it's a hell of a good time.:)

Thanks for your well placed benefit of the doubt.

Mike Sigman
07-09-2007, 01:05 PM
FWIW that exercise is not a Ueshiba "invention" or discovery. He got it from Takeda. Source, please. Ueshiba could do nikkyo, as could Takeda, but that does not prove that Ueshiba learned nikkyo from Takeda, even if he studied with Takeda. Source, please.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Fred Little
07-09-2007, 02:15 PM
I think I mentioned this before somewhere, but one of the exercises Tohei Sensei described in "Ki in Daily Life" is actually a breath/fascia exercise, although he doesn't say that clearly. Someone else posted the comment that Tohei attributed that particular exercise to Ueshiba Sensei.... that would make sense, since it is essentially a power-gung.

Regardless, it doesn't hurt people to look around. Ueshiba certainly did.... Aikido is founded on the Ki of Earth and the Ki of Heaven, the famous Yin-Yang dichotomy.

Best.

Mike Sigman

Mike --

Would the following be part of the second phase of that exercise?

http://theaikidodojo.com/pageimages/ibuki.jpg

I do believe I have a copy of "Ki in Daily Life" at home, but I have no idea what edition. That's on the short list of "books I now keep hidden because too many copies have disappeared and I'm tired of replacing it."

Best,

FL

Mike Sigman
07-09-2007, 02:49 PM
Mike --

Would the following be part of the second phase of that exercise?
I could be, Fred, or it could be part of the more general opening/cleansing/Earth-Heaven type of exercise. I've seen Ueshiba Sensei do that small portion that his still picture comes from... I *think*... but it's difficult to tell from just one still picture. Bear in mind that most breathing exercises are going to revolve around the basic principles, so often they're just somebody's personal take on "here's what I think is the best way to develop ki/qi in the most effective way using the least amount of steps to cover the range of the whole body".

The exercises Tohei shows are pretty basic ki developers, not very fancy. There are a lot of pro and con views to what's the best thing to do (everyone has an opinion about relax, tighten or don't tighten the dantien, amount of pressure, reverse-breathe or natural breathe, and so on down the line) and according to Ted Ehara's recent post, these exercises came from Ueshiba, so they're worth the focus of examination. I do believe I have a copy of "Ki in Daily Life" at home, but I have no idea what edition. That's on the short list of "books I now keep hidden because too many copies have disappeared and I'm tired of replacing it." I have the same problem. Better yet, I give one away that I haven't had recourse to look at in 20 years and immediately the next week I need it back. ;)

If you don't have that book at home, PM me and I'll send you a photocopy of some interesting but illegal pictures I have in a file.

Best.

Mike

Fred Little
07-09-2007, 04:57 PM
I went down into the basement as soon as I got home. It's cool in the basement, so I was motivated.

And there on the shelf was the 1978 Edition, 10th printing, with said instructions and photographs from page 61 through 69.

I incorporated the seated method so many years ago that I forgot where it came from, but have never really worked on the standing version.

One more point to work on.

Many thanks,

FL

Mike Sigman
07-09-2007, 06:01 PM
I incorporated the seated method so many years ago that I forgot where it came from, If all you incorporate are the simplistic instructions from that book, then it won't get you anything, frankly. But each to his own, I allus sez.

Best.

Mike

jennifer paige smith
07-11-2007, 08:54 AM
Mike --

Would the following be part of the second phase of that exercise?

http://theaikidodojo.com/pageimages/ibuki.jpg

I do believe I have a copy of "Ki in Daily Life" at home, but I have no idea what edition. That's on the short list of "books I now keep hidden because too many copies have disappeared and I'm tired of replacing it."

Best,

FL

This picture of O'Sensei, and Doshu in the shadows, looks like shin kokyu practice, as we call it.

MM
07-11-2007, 09:16 AM
This picture of O'Sensei, and Doshu in the shadows, looks like shin kokyu practice, as we call it.

So, what are you focusing on when you do this practice? In relation to internal, fascia, and tensegrity?

Thanks,
Mark

ChrisMoses
07-11-2007, 09:16 AM
This picture of O'Sensei, and Doshu in the shadows, looks like shin kokyu practice, as we call it.

I think he's telling a story about a watermelon and Doshu is clapping... :D

That's a joke.

Shin kokyu would be an interesting place to apply some internal body skills and/or pick Anno Sensei's brain about. There's a lot in there, or at least those movements have a lot of potential, IMHO.

tarik
07-11-2007, 03:33 PM
Shin kokyu would be an interesting place to apply some internal body skills and/or pick Anno Sensei's brain about. There's a lot in there, or at least those movements have a lot of potential, IMHO.

And Anno Sensei is in town this week. :)

Sadly, I doubt I'll have a chance to talk to him this time around, although I've an invite to visit him in the home he's staying in.

I think shin kokyu has a lot of religious overtones, but it certainly contains a number movement practices that appear to be in line with internal development, when practiced correctly.

From previous encounters over the years, I'm not sure that his focus on shin kokyu is the same as those looking for internal skills.

Most of the shin kokyu instruction I've witnessed doesn't appear to offer students a lot of detail and individual feedback or correction with respect to posture, focus, and managing appropriate internal tensions. Although occasionally discussed and demonstrated, it's appears to be taught more as a mental and spiritual exercise with the physical components taking more of a back seat or presented as aids to the mental. I know that I can use the exercise in different ways and get different results.

But I could certainly be wrong, as he does execute technique in a very relaxed manner and moves his feet rather than his arms when he wants to affect uke and once in a while shows things that are quite different than the experimentation he openly teaches in his seminars. But it's a bit hard to evaluate from memory when my own understanding of these things has changed so radically in the last two years.

Something to try and ask about then, this week, if I can free up time and get a chance.

Regards,

jennifer paige smith
07-13-2007, 09:30 AM
So, what are you focusing on when you do this practice? In relation to internal, fascia, and tensegrity?

Thanks,
Mark

Hi Tarik, I'm glad to hear that you got an invitation in the mail to see Anno Sensei while he is here. I got a letter from Aikido Santa Cruz, too. Mine wasn't an invitation.

Tarik went into the practice as we've done it with Anno sensei in the post above. We don't, as he said, take it apart in such intellectual terms. Partially because that is a science language that isn't included in the language that Anno Sensei speaks. Anno Sensei is a retired paper mill worker who spent the bulk of his life working and training and studying when he wasn't caring for his family or Hikitschi Sensei. He teaches Aikido organically and in the language of the founder. A beautiful reminder that intellectualism isn't neccessary (necessarily).
My ear;ier American teachers taught it in different ways. Mostly to ground your feet deeply(Ten), align your spine to the heavens(Chi) and row evenly from the hips while keeping your head up (high heavenly bridge). Anno Sensei speaks of I-Ku-Mu-Su-Bi and following the five circulations of breath as we meditate and row at the same time.
The meditations of The sun goddess, the Water spirit of purification, and the Position we occupy in the center of the Web are progressed throughout the practice.
The entire practice is circled in a meditation of the power of Nature and the "thread" of mankind: musubi.

The movements of the practice are like those of aiki warm-ups. They look kinda funny on their own, and then, wadda ya know, joe? They are the very same movements that are applied in the execution of technique during class. When done for their own sake, they are entirely powerful and releasing.

I try not to clog up my mind with thoughts of fascia, tensegrity and anything at all when I'm doing this or any practice. What emerges in the context of the exercise, while my mind is released from it's over involvement and is involved in the actual movement, is much greater than anything I could have ever thought to meditate on ahead of time. Whatever gifts of education, delight,sorrow, experience, work, relational issues, good books I've read, conversations I've had, or any stimulus to my being is open for emergence during my practice. It is grounded in the form and the leadership of the sequence, but it is a form of heart purification and inner intellience to allow all of my gifts equal room in the body of my practice. Turns out they all have an equal place and an equal bareing (sp.?) . Sometimes thoughts of the fascia variety emerge, simply, when they do.

Not to run you around. This is just my best answer as I hear your question?
Do you practice Shin Kokyu?

jennifer paige smith
07-13-2007, 09:40 AM
I think he's telling a story about a watermelon and Doshu is clapping... :D

That's a joke.

Shin kokyu would be an interesting place to apply some internal body skills and/or pick Anno Sensei's brain about. There's a lot in there, or at least those movements have a lot of potential, IMHO.

Yay!!!!Watermelon:D :D :D :D.
Ha,Ha,Ha....I think Anno Sensei would laugh at this. He is also very childish in that beautiful O'Sensei way.

I'm sure glad there's humor in the world.:)

tarik
07-13-2007, 10:05 AM
Hi Tarik, I'm glad to hear that you got an invitation in the mail to see Anno Sensei while he is here.

No letter, just the usual generic invite to the retreat and a verbal invite to visit from Anno's host when running into him at the grocery store. Unfortunately, I have some significant family obligations this week and I'm not sure I can even spare an hour to introduce him to my daughter much less talk about aikido, so I had to send my regards.


We don't, as he said, take it apart in such intellectual terms.
....
A beautiful reminder that intellectualism isn't neccessary (necessarily).

He does talk about focusing on certain energies or principles (as you mention); specifically certain kami and what they represent in the practice and how we should meditate and visualize what they represent and flow through us. It's an interesting approach that can be seen as intellectual in a mystical sense, but certainly not in the latter day scientific sense wherein science tries to explain why instead of just being content with being.


Partially because that is a science language that isn't included in the language that Anno Sensei speaks.

But he has also talked at times very firmly about budo in terms that were less than poetic and more direct and specific. I've heard him use technical terms that were not included in some of the translation I've experienced, so it all goes through our internal filters of what we are personally studying and capable of comprehending in that moment.


The movements of the practice are like those of aiki warm-ups. They look kinda funny on their own, and then, wadda ya know, joe? They are the very same movements that are applied in the execution of technique during class. When done for their own sake, they are entirely powerful and releasing.

The technical side Chris is curious about it, correctly done, these exercises have the potential to refine significant internal skills. Yet many people (some here would say most) who practice these exercises for a long time, show no such skills. So the conclusion becomes that something has either been lost in the teaching or that it is being hidden in plain site, with important details being omitted except for certain dedicated students who are let in on the differences.


I try not to clog up my mind with thoughts of fascia, tensegrity and anything at all when I'm doing this or any practice.

When I practice this now, the first thing I try to pay attention to is my posture and my structure, and adjusting the tension and relaxation in my body appropriately and the integrity of my movements. Then I try to empty my mind to focus on the various meditations as they come, but I'm still weak on posture, structure, etc., so I periodically return to trying to fix that. :-)

Lately, however, I generally work on simpler solo and paired exercises that have direct practical application to my training. I really have no idea if they develop 'internal' skills, but they definitely are slowly helping me to use my body as a single unit instead of a collection of individual coordinating pieces and are much more about what I am doing instead of what I am doing to uke.

Regards,

Franco
07-13-2007, 01:16 PM
This "fascia" stuff is fascinating. I looked up 'fascia' in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascia) and I thought the following paragraph was interesting:

Deep fascia can contract. What happens during the fight-or-flight response is an example of rapid fascial contraction . In response to a real or imagined threat to the organism, the body responds with a temporary increase in the stiffness of the fascia. Bolstered with tensioned fascia, people are able to perform extraordinary feats of strength and speed under emergency conditions. [12] How fascia contracts is still not well understood, but appears to involve the activity of myofibroblasts. Myofibroblasts are fascial cells that are created as a response to mechanical stress. In a two step process, fibroblasts differentiate into proto-myofibroblasts that with continued mechanical stress, become differentiated myofibroblasts. [13] Fibroblasts cannot contract, but myofibroblasts are able to contract in a smooth muscle-like manner.

Question for Mike Sigman: when you talk about "the fascia stuff", does it have anything to do with training the fascia to make it stronger and/or to "teach" it contract and relax?

Mike Sigman
07-13-2007, 01:28 PM
Question for Mike Sigman: when you talk about "the fascia stuff", does it have anything to do with training the fascia to make it stronger and/or to "teach" it contract and relax?It's both, Franco. However, a lot of the worries about this type of training is that when done wrongly, it can be harmful, rather than beneficial. Think of the analogy of curing and tanning a hide: stretching it over a frame, scraping it, beating it, applying chemicals, etc. If you don't really know how to cure a hide and you use the wrong procedures, etc., in the process, then you can end up ruining the hide. Same is true of the qigongs/breathing-methods. The safest methods are done (you have to know what to do) softly and for long periods of time, much like the methods illustrated (but not described very well) in some of Tohei's books, etc. I always remember something I read about where someone in northern China figured out how to make qigong practices safer so that not so many people wound up hypertensive, etc., as they used to do in southern China. Apparently, it took that information a few hundred years to leak out to some of the southern Chinese.... indicating that it's not obvious. The sophistication of the breathing methods in Japan is difficult to evaluate, but it's a safe bet that the information is limited in that respect, so people should be encouraged to constantly look and evaluate, IMO.

Best.

Mike

jennifer paige smith
07-13-2007, 08:59 PM
No letter, just the usual generic invite to the retreat and a verbal invite to visit from Anno's host when running into him at the grocery store. Unfortunately, I have some significant family obligations this week and I'm not sure I can even spare an hour to introduce him to my daughter much less talk about aikido, so I had to send my regards.

He does talk about focusing on certain energies or principles (as you mention); specifically certain kami and what they represent in the practice and how we should meditate and visualize what they represent and flow through us. It's an interesting approach that can be seen as intellectual in a mystical sense, but certainly not in the latter day scientific sense wherein science tries to explain why instead of just being content with being.

But he has also talked at times very firmly about budo in terms that were less than poetic and more direct and specific. I've heard him use technical terms that were not included in some of the translation I've experienced, so it all goes through our internal filters of what we are personally studying and capable of comprehending in that moment.

The technical side Chris is curious about it, correctly done, these exercises have the potential to refine significant internal skills. Yet many people (some here would say most) who practice these exercises for a long time, show no such skills. So the conclusion becomes that something has either been lost in the teaching or that it is being hidden in plain site, with important details being omitted except for certain dedicated students who are let in on the differences.

When I practice this now, the first thing I try to pay attention to is my posture and my structure, and adjusting the tension and relaxation in my body appropriately and the integrity of my movements. Then I try to empty my mind to focus on the various meditations as they come, but I'm still weak on posture, structure, etc., so I periodically return to trying to fix that. :-)

Lately, however, I generally work on simpler solo and paired exercises that have direct practical application to my training. I really have no idea if they develop 'internal' skills, but they definitely are slowly helping me to use my body as a single unit instead of a collection of individual coordinating pieces and are much more about what I am doing instead of what I am doing to uke.

Regards,

glad I could help.

Aran Bright
07-16-2007, 01:22 AM
This "fascia" stuff is fascinating. I looked up 'fascia' in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascia) and I thought the following paragraph was interesting:

Question for Mike Sigman: when you talk about "the fascia stuff", does it have anything to do with training the fascia to make it stronger and/or to "teach" it contract and relax?

Okay that blows it for me, I have been studying anatomy for over five years now and had never heard of fascia contracting in any other fashion than becoming stiff and rigid, never to unlock again except through stretching, time to re-evaluate I guess.

BTW, you gotta love wikipedia!

Within the framework of a tensegrity structure it does become quite obvious now how fascia and muscle can create forces beyond that which use muscle alone. Gee, imagine that!

Al Gutierrez
07-16-2007, 07:57 PM
A few thoughts, comments and questions:

All this talk about fascia makes sense to me regarding the traditional notions of ki/kokyu in Japanese budo; at least to the extent that ki & kokyu are both part of aikido.

It seems to me that the skills talked about in this thread are perhaps really more "advanced skills". Mike & Dan are arguing that they were part of Aikido or should be the baseline skills upon which aikido ought to operate - but have become lost or obscured - or "hidden in plain sight" as Ellis muses in his series of blogs. Why were they hidden? Why do you guys think they should be the "baseline" and not the advanced ideal for which we all should aim?

On another note, where do you guys draw the line or difference between ki and aiki? Or ki skills and aiki skills?

A.G.

Upyu
07-16-2007, 08:13 PM
It seems to me that the skills talked about in this thread are perhaps really more "advanced skills". Mike & Dan are arguing that they were part of Aikido or should be the baseline skills upon which aikido ought to operate - but have become lost or obscured - or "hidden in plain sight" as Ellis muses in his series of blogs. Why were they hidden? Why do you guys think they should be the "baseline" and not the advanced ideal for which we all should aim?


Cuz anyone can manifest the *basic* skills talked about with a couple of years of dedicated, smart training. Of course the degree of effectiveness will vary with the individual.
The real fun begins after the first 3-4 years (as I'm finding out) ;)

Mike Sigman
07-16-2007, 08:32 PM
On another note, where do you guys draw the line or difference between ki and aiki? Or ki skills and aiki skills? Y'know, I was thinking about one of the basic, officialish Aikido books that was put out by Kisshomaru Ueshiba many years ago and in it, IIRC, he was fairly clear about the place of ki in Aikido... IF you already knew what he was talking about. I'll have to see if I can spot a copy locally somewhere.

The short answer to your question is that ki is basic. In fact, that's what all that stuff in the Ki Society tries to do... a concurrent training of "ki" with your Aikido. "Aiki" is the blending of your ki with the opponent's force. Sometimes/often that blending *also* involves a technique, getting off the centerline, or whatever, but the essential idea is not really just the "blending" of technique, it's the instantaneous and automatic (mushin) adjustment of your ki so that there is a resultant direction Uke is forced to go because of something he initiated himself. That's more what "aiki" means. If it was just "blending via technique", why would that be any different than physical judo and why would O-Sensei have made such a big deal out it?

Best.

Mike

Franco
07-16-2007, 10:01 PM
Robert:

I'm gonna make every effort to go and see Akuzawa and you in Seattle. Do you think that with a weekend seminar, someone like me, with no real understanding of ki, can get started on the road of internal strength development?

Al Gutierrez
07-17-2007, 01:53 AM
The short answer to your question is that ki is basic.

Basic to what Mike? Doesn't "basic" somewhat depend upon the relative skill level of the person? In other words, to an untrained, unskilled person, what is basic may be simply pushing and pulling with normal muscle strength.

What's basic to someone with some training may be the application of technique (using movement/position/leverage) to overcome brute strength. Basics for an expert technician might involve a deeper understanding of the principles of physics, physiology, and even psychology, and how they enable techniques to work. We might say the expert is able to bring together principle and technique to overcome even the techniques of younger, faster, stronger opponents.

Am I wrong to think that basic really involves more 'external' skills - like taisabaki, skeletal alignment, posture, and form? And the 'internal' body skills mentioned here and elsewhere in these discussions (such as the baseline skills thread) are really more advanced?

Since when did utilizing subtle and sophisticated conditioning of the fascia through secret breathing techniques, mental imagery and/or mentally spreading and directing forcepaths throughout the soft tissues of the body via the tensegrity-like structure of fascia in order to resist pushing from any direction become basic, baseline skills?

Although these body skills seem "basic" to those more advanced practitioners who have spent years working to cultivate and condition their bodies the way that Sagawa, Kimura, Ueshiba, Shioda, Tohei, Abe, Inaba, Ushiro, Master Sum, CXW, Akuzawa, and apparently even our own Mike, Dan & Rob seem to have done. Judging from the reports of folks who've experienced you all first hand, it seems to me these are rather uncommon/advanced skills.

"Aiki" is the blending of your ki with the opponent's force.

Nice concise way of putting it. Easier said than done though, I suppose.

Sometimes/often that blending *also* involves a technique, getting off the centerline, or whatever, but the essential idea is not really just the "blending" of technique, it's the instantaneous and automatic (mushin) adjustment of your ki so that there is a resultant direction Uke is forced to go because of something he initiated himself. That's more what "aiki" means.

So the 'essential' idea is really training/conditioning of the fascia to adjust the supporting tensegrital (?) or soft tissue structure of the body automatically in such a way as to blend with and repel the opponents attack? How is it that this "essential idea" is only sometimes or less often the means of blending with an attack than an actual technique is? What did you mean by that?

Is this "essential idea" done intentionally or not? Tohei says the mind leads the body. Here you said the ki is adjusted automatically without thought (mushin), elsewhere you speak of directing forces with your mind, which is it? If this is basic how do you that?

Could you expand a bit on just how you "adjust your ki instantly & automatically so that uke is forced to go because of something he intitiated himself"? Can you give some examples of 1.) how do you train to develop this ability? And 2.) how you would actually use it in a technique like say aidori ikkyo or katate dori shihonage?

In particular, I'm curious how you understand the role that the tensegral structure of the fascia and/or ki & kokyu plays out martially, in other words, in the basics of these two techniques vs the more standard external methods usually exemplified by other posters.

Rob, Dan and Ignatius, if you care to comment, I welcome your feedback here as well. If you prefer, please substitute a basic BJJ or MMA technique for the ikkyo and shihonage examples.

Thanks for these stimulating threads and discussions, I look forward to your responses and comments.

A.G.

Tom H.
07-17-2007, 04:25 AM
...Why do you guys think they should be the "baseline" and not the advanced ideal for which we all should aim?

A.G.

I agree with Rob. Regardless of whether you call these skills advanced or basic: (a) new students can work on them directly under a competent teacher and (b) expect very, er, notable progress after only a couple years of hard work.

Tom

eyrie
07-17-2007, 05:18 AM
Al,

I'm guessing Mike means "basic" as in it's fundamental to what makes AI-KI-DO aikido and that it serves as a basis which supports the existence of or that which determines the essential structure or function of Aikido. IOW, no ki no Aikido.

Perhaps this video of Shioda might elucidate what Mike means by "adjust your ki instantly..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DiNQgAbH0Y&mode=related&search=

Particularly from 0:54 - 1:02, and then again at 1:32, 2:33 - 2:38.

As for how to train this, I think there are generally 2 ways to do so... by "packing" the breath and/or "twisting and winding". I'm not really qualified to discuss this in detail as to what that specifically entails, but that's what I understand it to be...

Maybe a general example might help convey the idea (as I understand it).

If you've ever pumped up a bike tire, it's essentially the same idea. The tire itself is generally soft and rubbery. But as you keep pumping air into the tire, the tire gets harder and harder. So, when we're talking about "fascia", the inner tube of the tire is basically what we're generalizing the fascia to mean.

As for how to use it in a technique, it's simply too complicated to detail exactly how, and probably quicker to show/feel it. The other side of it is, if you have "on demand" access to use it, you wouldn't need a "technique" specifically.... as evidenced by the video above. ;)

MM
07-17-2007, 06:48 AM
He teaches Aikido organically and in the language of the founder.


I don't suppose you'd care to expand upon those two concepts? Never heard of teaching organically and I'm curious as to what the language of the founder is.


My ear;ier American teachers taught it in different ways. Mostly to ground your feet deeply(Ten), align your spine to the heavens(Chi) and row evenly from the hips while keeping your head up (high heavenly bridge). Anno Sensei speaks of I-Ku-Mu-Su-Bi and following the five circulations of breath as we meditate and row at the same time.

Do you practice Shin Kokyu?

Yes and no? :) From your descriptions, I might be doing something similar, but then again, words are words. Physical and mental actions are not. Sounds close, but you just don't know until you experience it.

Thanks,
Mark

MM
07-17-2007, 07:12 AM
A few thoughts, comments and questions:

All this talk about fascia makes sense to me regarding the traditional notions of ki/kokyu in Japanese budo; at least to the extent that ki & kokyu are both part of aikido.

It seems to me that the skills talked about in this thread are perhaps really more "advanced skills". Mike & Dan are arguing that they were part of Aikido or should be the baseline skills upon which aikido ought to operate - but have become lost or obscured - or "hidden in plain sight" as Ellis muses in his series of blogs. Why were they hidden? Why do you guys think they should be the "baseline" and not the advanced ideal for which we all should aim?

A.G.

Hmmm ... maybe look at it this way. You have basic skills, advanced skills, and then you have baseline skills. Basic skills could be things like simple body structure. While baseline skills could be the underlying skills that an art is taught from, or the foundation.

So, fascia manipulation can actually be a more advanced skill, but it still can be a baseline skill for aikido. Does that make sense? Body structure (as talked about in the baseline skills thread) can be a basic skill but also a baseline skill for aikido.

Mark

Mike Sigman
07-17-2007, 07:30 AM
Basic to what Mike? Doesn't "basic" somewhat depend upon the relative skill level of the person? In other words, to an untrained, unskilled person, what is basic may be simply pushing and pulling with normal muscle strength. Well, it's not that hard to have someone doing a few basic movements "with ki" on a first day meeting, in my opinion. That's a start; the basics. The core technique of "aiki" is going to be built around ki, when it's done correctly. I personally don't see any big problem with delineating ki/jin skills as "basic". But it would probably have to be shown to you in order for you to appreciate the perspective.Am I wrong to think that basic really involves more 'external' skills - like taisabaki, skeletal alignment, posture, and form? And the 'internal' body skills mentioned here and elsewhere in these discussions (such as the baseline skills thread) are really more advanced? I would argue that each one of those things (taisabaki, posture, etc.) can be done 2 ways: with or without ki abilities. I think the ki abilities should come first or at least concurrently. Tohei apparently thinks the same thing, BTW.Since when did utilizing subtle and sophisticated conditioning of the fascia through secret breathing techniques, mental imagery and/or mentally spreading and directing forcepaths throughout the soft tissues of the body via the tensegrity-like structure of fascia in order to resist pushing from any direction become basic, baseline skills? I dunno.... ever been at a dojo and the instructor wanted to do some misogi breathing so they booted out the new guys? Doesn't happen. Anyone can do those kinds of exercises, IMO. Once in a blue moon I'll do a freebie meeting with an older group that just wants a soft but beneficial exercise and I'll teach them a basic, helpful, and non-mysterious form of that same breathing approach.So the 'essential' idea is really training/conditioning of the fascia to adjust the supporting tensegrital (?) or soft tissue structure of the body automatically in such a way as to blend with and repel the opponents attack? How is it that this "essential idea" is only sometimes or less often the means of blending with an attack than an actual technique is? What did you mean by that?

Is this "essential idea" done intentionally or not? Tohei says the mind leads the body. Here you said the ki is adjusted automatically without thought (mushin), elsewhere you speak of directing forces with your mind, which is it? If this is basic how do you that?

Could you expand a bit on just how you "adjust your ki instantly & automatically so that uke is forced to go because of something he intitiated himself"? Can you give some examples of 1.) how do you train to develop this ability? And 2.) how you would actually use it in a technique like say aidori ikkyo or katate dori shihonage? Eek! Answering those kinds of questions would take more writing time than I have this morning, Al, since I'm packing for a flight this afternoon. Get Dan to answer you. ;)

Besides, I think I've answered most of your questions in various posts to AikiWeb over recent years, so it would be redundant. PM me and maybe I can point you to where some of these things are written out and discussed.

Best.

Mike

Upyu
07-17-2007, 10:00 AM
Is this "essential idea" done intentionally or not? Tohei says the mind leads the body. Here you said the ki is adjusted automatically without thought (mushin), elsewhere you speak of directing forces with your mind, which is it? If this is basic how do you that?

Could you expand a bit on just how you "adjust your ki instantly & automatically so that uke is forced to go because of something he intitiated himself"? Can you give some examples of 1.) how do you train to develop this ability? And 2.) how you would actually use it in a technique like say aidori ikkyo or katate dori shihonage?


Dont have time to shed light on all the questions.
But as far as the mushin questions, thats easy.
Basically youre rewiring your nervous system, so in training your *yi* or mind will be in overdrive, just like Tohei says.
But when you go for real theres no time to be goin *so my mind leads the "qi" to the hand annnnddd oh look, theres a foot headed towards my head*

Training this ability depends on whatever exercise you prefer, for me its Cross, Shiko, and Body axis training with some Hsing-I five elements thrown in for good measure. (Ever wonder why the chinese do these movements super slow?)

Another point though is that, when you "fight" someone else, all you do is try to maintain your equilibrium. Dan has said this before as well. Its all about "you" and you alone. You have no time to be worrying about your opponent and setting him up really.
So as you "equalize" your body and consequently neutralize your opponent, youre automatically adjusting your "ki" with respect to your "opponent".

Upyu
07-17-2007, 10:01 AM
Robert:

I'm gonna make every effort to go and see Akuzawa and you in Seattle. Do you think that with a weekend seminar, someone like me, with no real understanding of ki, can get started on the road of internal strength development?

You can, but the biggest hurdle will be the mental one I think.
The second biggest will be to train daily and be prepared to completely rework how you move in daily life ;)

If you can do those two things, then Id say you have a fair shot at it.

MM
07-17-2007, 10:53 AM
I think Wang Shujin understood fascia and tensegrity. ;)

Check out the first 5 seconds of this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgSPsiQhAZk

Smith was giving it a go and hurt his hand. :) In Smith's book, Martial Musings, Jon Bluming tried the same thing and hurt his hand.

Al Gutierrez
07-17-2007, 07:03 PM
Ignatius,

I'll buy the explanation of "fundamental skills" = baseline skills. That works better for me than "basic".

I've seen the videos of Shioda. I understand your bike tire analogy and I guess that works in a vague way, but I was hoping for an example of how you train to "pack your breath" or "twist and wind" as you say, (exactly what/how?) and then an application of that skill to a simple technique.

This is a baseline skill you guys are asserting, yet it's too complicated to explain - I understand it has to be shown - so would someone please post a video of themselves explaining, teaching, and doing it and not simply point to Ueshiba, Shioda or CXW? You don't have to be a master, just show how you train it and how you apply it.

Thanks for the responses so far.

A. G.

eyrie
07-17-2007, 10:01 PM
Well, if you understand the bike tire analogy then the HOW should be pretty self-evident... ;)

Some of the exercises have already been covered. See Rob's earlier post. Mike has already mentioned a few in various posts.

My suggestion would be to look closely at the "warm up" exercises and basic techniques, to see how these basic principles apply... it's right there, hidden in plain sight. :D

How I would train "it", is slowly and gently. Uke is there to help provide bio-feedback. It is not a contest of strength or you trying to "do something" to uke.

Like Dan says, it's ALL about you... working on YOU. And I would say, the same goes for uke...

Upyu
07-17-2007, 10:29 PM
Ignatius,

I'll buy the explanation of "fundamental skills" = baseline skills. That works better for me than "basic".

I've seen the videos of Shioda. I understand your bike tire analogy and I guess that works in a vague way, but I was hoping for an example of how you train to "pack your breath" or "twist and wind" as you say, (exactly what/how?) and then an application of that skill to a simple technique.

This is a baseline skill you guys are asserting, yet it's too complicated to explain - I understand it has to be shown - so would someone please post a video of themselves explaining, teaching, and doing it and not simply point to Ueshiba, Shioda or CXW? You don't have to be a master, just show how you train it and how you apply it.

Thanks for the responses so far.

A. G.

Al,
See the "Training for Martial Movement" in the training section. It has an overview of what needs to be stabilized/conditioned before you even get into the breathing aspect.

Anyways I see you're in Colorado...why not go see Mike ;)
It would shortcut hours of trying to figure this stuff out on your own.
Btw, I have some youtube vids up of myself at various points in time doing the exercises we do at Aunkai, so you can see how the movement changes over time.
(god did i suck 2 years back...and I know Im going to say the same thing 2 years later :D )

Aran Bright
07-18-2007, 12:37 AM
Another point though is that, when you "fight" someone else, all you do is try to maintain your equilibrium. Dan has said this before as well. Its all about "you" and you alone. You have no time to be worrying about your opponent and setting him up really.
So as you "equalize" your body and consequently neutralize your opponent, youre automatically adjusting your "ki" with respect to your "opponent".

Hi Rob,

I like this statment, I have recently begun to think of technique as simply being a way to 'correct' the disruption to your structure that is caused from someone's attack, and that 'correction' is what powers the 'chosen' technique; regardless of what technique we are talking about.

Regards,

Aran

clwk
07-18-2007, 12:38 AM
Anyways I see you're in Colorado...why not go see Mike ;) It would shortcut hours of trying to figure this stuff out on your own. [emphasis added] Rob, I never thought I'd say this, but you're a master of understatement.

-ck

Al Gutierrez
07-18-2007, 01:21 AM
How I would train "it", is slowly and gently. Uke is there to help provide bio-feedback. It is not a contest of strength or you trying to "do something" to uke.

But Mike says that uke is forced...

...the essential idea is not really just the "blending" of technique, it's the instantaneous and automatic (mushin) adjustment of your ki so that there is a resultant direction Uke is forced to go because of something he initiated himself.

I've followed a lot of these threads but I'll do some of your suggested reading and look for the youtube clips and check back.

I've experienced the sort of things you speak of including stuff much like the previous Shioda clip, so I'm not a complete newb or non-believer. I have some background in aikido and various other arts and I also know someone who does Daito Ryu, although I haven't run into him in a little while he could do amazing things after just a few years in Japan. His perspective on these internal things seemed a bit different from either the usual aikido view or what you guys have been suggesting though. I'm just always trying to learn more.

I'm not in Colorado very often these days, and even then, I believe that Mike is a bit south and quite out of my way.

Gracias anyhow,

A.G.

eyrie
07-18-2007, 01:50 AM
But Mike says that uke is forced... Correct. Uke is forced to go because of something he initiated. What I was referring to was from a "just beginning" POV. Obviously, if you are better than uke at equalizing yourself, then uke will likely be forced to go as soon as he tries to initiate something. If uke is better, then maybe you will be forced to go. If you are both equally good, then the first one to "lose" it may be forced to go.

If that makes sense?

Upyu
07-18-2007, 02:02 AM
Correct. Uke is forced to go because of something he initiated. What I was referring to was from a "just beginning" POV. Obviously, if you are better than uke at equalizing yourself, then uke will likely be forced to go as soon as he tries to initiate something. If uke is better, then maybe you will be forced to go. If you are both equally good, then the first one to "lose" it may be forced to go.

If that makes sense?

Yea, more like, Tori is only Tori so long as he's able to actually neutralize Uke. If Uke is better, just switch the names around, as tori lands on his ass ;)

I believe this is the way they practiced in Sagawa's dojo as well with respect to Kokyu-ho/Agete. One person holds down, the other tries to raise. Technically the Uke is the one holding down. But if Tori can't affect Uke's structure, he quickly becomes Uke.
Really the names are subjective, since both people are really working on the same things but from different perspectives/roles.

Aran Bright
07-18-2007, 03:18 AM
The following is taken from a text that I have referenced below;

"Tensegrity structures actually become stronger when they are stressed as load applied is distributed not only to the area being directly loaded but throughout the structure. They employ both compressional and tensional elements. When applying the principles of tensegrity to the human body, one can readily see the bones and the intervertebral discs as the discontinous compressional units and the myofascial tissues (muscles, tendons, ligament, fascia and to some degree the discs) as the tensional elements. When load is applied (as in lifting) both the osseous and myofascial tissues distribute the stress incurred."

(Chaitow, L and DeLany, J.W., 2002, Clinical Applications of Neuromuscular Techniques, vol 1, the upper body, p9)

FWIW,

Aran

eyrie
07-18-2007, 04:19 AM
Really the names are subjective, since both people are really working on the same things but from different perspectives/roles. The "roles" are in reality arbitrary distinctions for pedagogical purposes. So, I would qualify that with ..."working on the same things and working ON themselves".... For the arbitrary "role-play" distinction to hold in learning mode, it boils down to individual skill levels and abilities, and whether the more advanced practitioner is willing to help the other and to what extent. Especially considering that the better you get, the "heavier" you tend to "feel" to the other person.

tarik
07-18-2007, 01:33 PM
glad I could help.

:sorry: Huh? In what way? :confused:

tarik
07-18-2007, 01:46 PM
Yea, more like, Tori is only Tori so long as he's able to actually neutralize Uke. If Uke is better, just switch the names around, as tori lands on his ass ;)

I believe this is the way they practiced in Sagawa's dojo as well with respect to Kokyu-ho/Agete. One person holds down, the other tries to raise. Technically the Uke is the one holding down. But if Tori can't affect Uke's structure, he quickly becomes Uke.
Really the names are subjective, since both people are really working on the same things but from different perspectives/roles.

This recent direction in the thread puts a lot of things in place to me. It fits together with the concepts and language I'm currently exploring in my training. Of course, only a hands on experience really verifies when people are talking about the same things, because I've had plenty of encounters with people who feel that we're all talking about the same stuff only to find that we aren't. Such a meeting with my current teacher really made me open my eyes about how we often talk past one another online about this stuff and how pointless some of the discussions can be until people actually meet and experience openly. Even then, I've witnessed people not get it for whatever reason.

Here's some of my current thoughts about this line of discussion. While we tend to assign the roles in training, the roles are really descriptive of who has sente (and gets to make the next decision) in the interaction, rather than who is trying to do what. Both partners are working on (or should be) their own internal posture, structure, relaxation and tension in appropriate movements and the roles are really interchangeable from moment to moment.

Since two people connected become a system, how each person moves affects the whole system, but the intent in the practice is not to move the other person, but to correctly adjust yourself to maintain posture, recover any loss of balance, and notice the results of that in the other person without specifically doing anything to the other person. If you get it right, it's almost like they're doing it to themselves, although certainly, tori has to do the right things for that to be able to happen. It feels soft and almost effortless to tori, but impossibly heavy or even forceful to uke.

DH
07-18-2007, 01:50 PM
AL
In response to your advanced or basic question. I think its really both. Everyone can start this type of training. You just need someone who can do it -to teach it to you. IMHO the bulk of the work is you on your own away from distractions. The purity of your work really becomes self evident and transparent to everyone. If you notice -everyone who has written in-sort of checks their ego at the door. You work your ass off-ever sweat standing still?-then realize after a few years you still suck. It has it's own way of reminding you how much work you have to do.

You asked about videos on the Baseline skills thread. Utter waste of time I think. Hell I have trouble with folks standing in front of me what the hell am I going to accomplish on a video. I ain't no movie star or Budo teacher, nor do I aim to be anytime soon :cool: I'd say trust what everyone is telling about the videos being a waste of time for you. They are.

[]Fascia[/u]
Just try to imagine everything in your body being connected by a flexible sheath. Try to imagine that you can control it's movement and have it make connections inside you that cause large body responses to input. Whether it be a wide spread load dispersal receiver, or a highly focused current of power- it involves trained tendon/fascia/bone/muscle. There are many things that can be discussed. How it engages, what controls it, and what is actually changing in you, why can it be moved and felt. Why you can grab someone and instantly know if they are working the right things or not. Why this work -IS- Aikido- every wrist grab (training or waza) it inherited from Daito ryu. Why wrist grabs had meaning for training as in you grab my wrist I absorb you and control you with my whole body or part of it, (my choice) and moving my hara can and will move you. This is.....NOT.......the same as Aikido people moving THEIR whole body all over the place to make someone else move!!;) Tenkan is a wast of time. Standing in the same spot and making them fly across YOU because they grabbed your wrist...isn't. That is a simple exercise in moving your fascia with your center while standing still and they feel compelled and drawn to to be uprooted and moved across you. That degenerated into them grabbing tough and remaining standing and you moving around them (tenkan)...bleck. it will only teach low level stuff not even worth learning IMO.
Speaking of which you can clearly demonstrate just how connected someone is by what they are doing with their center, what it effects and what it is connected too. watched a taiji copy his teachers "moving belly" motions, really really well. The only problem was the students center wasn't connected to anything to move in the first place. Still looked cool though. In short if you haven't trained your body to move as a whole, you're not going to get by pretending it is. To this day I yell at my self for slacking off. And I train in one form or another everyday. I believe fascia/tendon work takes intention and attention on a regular basis.
We can talk all day about what is connected to what and how to manipulate it, but it's rather pointless. I get folks to start by doing certain things and then build other connections later on.

Use
The real trick is to let go of fighting people and working on maintaining your own structure. It is the main reason this training is tailor made fr any grappling situation. You structure has nothing to do with your uke- it is your own. His trying to manipulate your structure, reveals the holes in his own-particularly if he is using muscle, and all the while you get to stay on your feet and more or less feel indifferent and still "ready to go." If that sounds like granola-crunchy aikido -just think of a judoka working on maintaining a viable posture while under pressure from an intent opponent, it much the same idea just using a whole new set of skills to do it. The advantages are ; that the opponents attacks make more openings for you to counter than a more typical judo /jujutsu shia. Their attempts typically leave them a sweaty mess with an internal player far more relaxed. The reasons for this are to do with the use of Tendon.fascia and the connections they both make and then support in a trained man. Overall I would say it makes a man harder to read, harder to counter, much more powerful to deal with, the strikes and kicks more damaging, and the training makes you healthier.

To counter all the hype, anyone can be knocked out and anyone can be caught. This training just makes you a far better you, no matter what venue you choose to use it in,MMA, BJJ, Jujutsu, Daito ryu, Aikido, or no fighting at all.

Al Gutierrez
07-19-2007, 01:24 AM
Thanks Dan, your post explains a lot.

Based on my own experiences training and talking with a Daito-ryu practitioner, I think most of what you're describing sounds very much like Daito Ryu 101.

A.G.

"Even an expert can be defeated by a layman, if the expert is negligient." ~ Sokaku Takeda

DH
07-19-2007, 06:18 PM
Thanks Dan, your post explains a lot.

Based on my own experiences training and talking with a Daito-ryu practitioner, I think most of what you're describing sounds very much like Daito Ryu 101.
Well..ya!!
Let me think. I've only been saying that for... oh I dunno... 12 years. Where do ya think I got it from?

The real issue is
a. Finding those who can -actually- do it.
then.....
b. Finding those who will -actually- teach you -HOW- to do it.
Then
c. Learning how to actually use it -freestyle- against everyone and anyone-outside.... of Daito ryu

Have fun.

Mike Sigman
07-19-2007, 06:42 PM
c. Learning how to actually use it -freestyle- against everyone and anyone-outside.... of Daito ryu
Ermmmm..... so why were you going to some Taiji dude like Wang Hai Jun for information then, Dan? I'm not sure how you can take "my style" positions about Daito Ryu on an Aikido forum when you've been beating the bushes in other styles for information. Frankly, having met a few people who do Daito Ryu, I'm not comfortable with the assertion that the ki/qi skills are typical "Daito Ryu 101". If it was, I think it would have been clearer, sooner.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

DH
07-19-2007, 07:25 PM
Ermmmm..... so why were you going to some Taiji dude like Wang Hai Jun for information then, Dan? I'm not sure how you can take "my style" positions about Daito Ryu on an Aikido forum when you've been beating the bushes in other styles for information. Frankly, having met a few people who do Daito Ryu, I'm not comfortable with the assertion that the ki/qi skills are typical "Daito Ryu 101". If it was, I think it would have been clearer, sooner.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Why do you paint everything in such a lousy, smarmy light?
Some taiji dude? Gees, Mike Knock it off already.

What I have been doing is called research. Good, bad, or indifferent. As for DR?
DR is about as different as you can get depending on the school/style/ and the teacher student relationship.

FWIW, Frankly I think you referring to anything as "taiji" has no merit what-so-ever if I based it on the students -I- have met in several venues. The only difference being that while ...I... understand there is a difference between students and teachers (and you do too, Mike)... I don't use it conveniently to beret others and make cheap-shots on the net.:cool:

Mike Sigman
07-19-2007, 07:37 PM
Why do you paint everything in such a lousy, smarmy light?
Some taiji dude? Gees, Mike Knock it off already.

What I have been doing is called research. Good, bad, or indifferent. As for DR?
DR is about as different as you can get depending on the school/style/ and the teacher student relationship.

FWIW, Frankly I think you referring to anything as "taiji" has no merit what-so-ever if I based it on the students -I- have met in several venues. The only difference being that while ...I... understand there is a difference between students and teachers (and you do too, Mike)... I don't use it conveniently to beret others and make cheap-shots on the net.:cool:Maybe we're reading two different threads, but my comments and questions were about some pretty direct Daito-Ryu assertions, despite the fact that you're not addressing them and are trying to change the subject back to me again. Of course, I admit that's better than your simply not being able to answer or to your pulling all your posts.

Again.... if you think this stuff is only for people "inside Daito Ryu", then you're the one making the smear and smarmy remarks. If you didn't mean it that way, why not say so instead of another personal shot?

Mike Sigman

DH
07-21-2007, 03:32 PM
Maybe we're reading two different threads, but my comments and questions were about some pretty direct Daito-Ryu assertions, despite the fact that you're not addressing them and are trying to change the subject back to me again. Of course, I admit that's better than your simply not being able to answer or to your pulling all your posts.
Mike Sigman

There wasn't a change of subject. You weren't involved in the subject at all. You interjected . Not that I mind, Many times I enjoy your posts. But if you interject and throw zingers at me -yet again- you just may get a reply.
Here's a sample of communication 101 from Sigman -again- bringing up unrelated and side-shot personal comments...
Of course, I admit that's better than your simply not being able to answer or to your pulling all your posts. all while running others down for it. ;)
Zinger #1Not wanting to answer you is quite different from not being able to answer.
Zinger #2 I pulled those posts after asking 12 basic questions with (I think) 9 tangient yet related ones. All of those based off of Three very pointed ones that neither you Mark Jacobson or Ellis could answer. Ellis was very direct and polite and said he couldn't answer them. I then listened to you and Mark run all around the points you simply were not able to address. After asking you to answer them repeatedly, then after a different tact of asking you to consider their meaning in the discussion I got to watch you side-step back to your own agenda. It was pointless to pursue that line of discussion you guys simply weren't interested in or were unable to answer and clearly were interested in going else where with it.

So far in these three threads you have -by intent- brought up posts by me, and your opinion of me from 1 to 2 years ago-then get all sensitive on me about personal commentary back at ya. Stay off making your ever ready slights and digs at me, and you won't see me have to address them in kind. Or not....
Better yet, don't talk to me at all. It's never condusive to moving a discusion forward anyway.

Again.... if you think this stuff is only for people "inside Daito Ryu", then you're the one making the smear and smarmy remarks. If you didn't mean it that way, why not say so instead of another personal shot?
Hmm... I directly answered Al. Just where do -you- come in?
And where did I say "this stuff is only for those in DR?"__________ I said what I meant. Here's a novel idea, Mike. Instead of misconstruing things and talking the wrong meaning, A-S-K for clarification.
AL said [/]Based on my own experiences training and talking with a Daito-ryu practitioner, I think most of what you're describing sounds very much like Daito Ryu 101.[/i]
To which I said
[/i]Well..ya!!
Let me think. I've only been saying that for... oh I dunno... 12 years. Where do ya think I got it from?

The real issue is
a. Finding those who can -actually- do it.
then.....
b. Finding those who will -actually- teach you -HOW- to do it.
Then
c. Learning how to actually use it -freestyle- against everyone and anyone-outside.... of Daito ryu

Have fun.[/i]

At least try to follow along....
This exchange between Al and I was honest discourse between two people. We were just ...talking with each other. What a novel idea! Try completing a post without your endless zingers. I've never seen it help in a discussion.

DH
07-21-2007, 03:54 PM
Edit ran out
To be clear(er) While talking about training- In post #65 I said this

To counter all the hype, anyone can be knocked out and anyone can be caught. This training just makes you a far better you, no matter what venue you choose to use it in,MMA, BJJ, Jujutsu, Daito ryu, Aikido, or no fighting at all.

Al then brought up DR.
You then -once again- misread and told -me- I was saying this is only DR. Your take and your point make no sense at all.

Mike Sigman
07-21-2007, 04:26 PM
Zinger #1Not wanting to answer you is quite different from not being able to answer. "Not wanting to", like in avoiding every direct question I've ever asked, would be one way to try to mask "not being able, to", as well. However, that's another tangent. The point is that you seem unable to answer direct questions about simple procedures even when you introduce the topic with your own assertions. You make assertions. Questions are asked. There's never an answer of substance. Zinger #2 I pulled those posts after asking 12 basic questions with (I think) 9 tangient yet related ones. All of those based off of Three very pointed ones that neither you Mark Jacobson or Ellis could answer. Ellis was very direct and polite and said he couldn't answer them. I then listened to you and Mark run all around the points you simply were not able to address. After asking you to answer them repeatedly, then after a different tact of asking you to consider their meaning in the discussion I got to watch you side-step back to your own agenda. It was pointless to pursue that line of discussion you guys simply weren't interested in or were unable to answer and clearly were interested in going else where with it. OK, this one should be fairly easy for you... what the hell are you talking about? Once again you make veiled assertions and no one can tell what you're talking about. What questions are you talking about and when..... and why is this diversion to a vague "you couldn't answer a question" an answer to the question I asked? Only a child responds like that. Or goes quiet. Or changes the subject to a personal discussion. Etc. So far in these three threads you have -by intent- brought up posts by me, and your opinion of me from 1 to 2 years ago-then get all sensitive on me about personal commentary back at ya. Stay off making your ever ready slights and digs at me, and you won't see me have to address them in kind. Or not.... . BS. You make wide and general assertions, on your own, you're asked questions in response to your assertions and you try to flip to a personal discussion when you're called on it. Better yet, don't talk to me at all. It's never condusive to moving a discusion forward anyway. No Dan.... if you don't want people to ask questions on a public list, then don't make general assertions. You're absolutely FAMOUS for dodging questions to your own assertions with BS about "koryu" and "secrets". Not famous... "NOTORIOUS".

Hmm... I directly answered Al. Just where do -you- come in?
And where did I say "this stuff is only for those in DR?"__________ I said what I meant. Here's a novel idea, Mike. Instead of misconstruing things and talking the wrong meaning, A-S-K for clarification.
AL said [/]Based on my own experiences training and talking with a Daito-ryu practitioner, I think most of what you're describing sounds very much like Daito Ryu 101.[/i]
To which I said
[/i]Well..ya!!
Let me think. I've only been saying that for... oh I dunno... 12 years. Where do ya think I got it from?

The real issue is
a. Finding those who can -actually- do it.
then.....
b. Finding those who will -actually- teach you -HOW- to do it.
Then
c. Learning how to actually use it -freestyle- against everyone and anyone-outside.... of Daito ryu

Have fun.[/i]
Thanks for making my point for me. But you did that in your last post, as well.

Mike

DH
07-21-2007, 05:58 PM
"Not wanting to", like in avoiding every direct question I've ever asked, would be one way to try to mask "not being able, to", as well. However, that's another tangent. The point is that you seem unable to answer direct questions about simple procedures even when you introduce the topic with your own assertions. You make assertions. Questions are asked. There's never an answer of substance.
Sure, Mike. My posts are never about substance. Do you review what you write? I bet you're more of a "seat-o-your-pants" kinda guy aren't ya now?
As for technical information and internet teaching?
Mean like this, Mike?

"Rob you lure them while I spank their bums."....Mike Sigman
"It has to be felt".... Mike Sigman
"It's too complicated to discsuss here....Mike Sigman
Or the ditty you gave about "drawing in through the dantien and then relaxing?" ...(which is piss poor information)
Then saying ......."Go find a teacher".....Mike Sigman

Unlike you I don't "pretend" to teach on the internet, it's a waste of time. I don't even claim to teach in the first place. If you wish to assert "Dan doesn't know anything, and is unable to answer technical questions." Knock yourself out. You're the one who's angry and all frustrated about it and keeps bringin it up. In light of your own posting's- your argument carries little weight.

OK, this one should be fairly easy for you... what the hell are you talking about? Once again you make veiled assertions and no one can tell what you're talking about. What questions are you talking about and when..... and why is this diversion to a vague "you couldn't answer a question" an answer to the question I asked? Only a child responds like that.
Yes Mike I'm a child, thanks. Here's a better more thoughtful approach for ya. Learn to deal with frustration or confontation in a more productive manner. It benefits all.
And -I- didn't say no one, Mike-you did. There ya go again blowing things out of proportion, constructing arguments, and ranting away..I referred to the posts I pulled on Aikido Journal which you gave me a hard time for, They were questions involving historical connections from one DR school to the next to Ueshiba, and had a few pointed questions about internal skills "used in the art." You were unabe to address the former due to lack of knowledge and you were unabe to address the later for the same cause. And you are right I've also pulled many replies in heated discusion on E-budo and left "deleted" behind and been thanked for it by those that count, as it doesn't further a discussion to argue. And I'd do it again. I won't apologize for that to you.

Or goes quiet. Or changes the subject to a personal discussion. Etc. . BS. You make wide and general assertions, on your own, you're asked questions in response to your assertions and you try to flip to a personal discussion when you're called on it. No Dan.... if you don't want people to ask questions on a public list, then don't make general assertions. You're absolutely FAMOUS for dodging questions to your own assertions with BS about "koryu" and "secrets". Not famous... "NOTORIOUS". Thanks for making my point for me. But you did that in your last post, as well.
Mike
Sigh.. I never "flip" conversations to a personal one. With you I simply choose to answer your insults directly.
As for the rest I answer what I want, when I want, and make no apologies. Most Budo folk are intelligent enough to know how to pursue information. And I seem to get along just fine.
As for Koryu, everyone here is very well versed in your "Koryu is B.S." lines. Thanks.

This isn't productive if you wish to discuss all my shortcomings do so in P.M. I'm much more versed in them than you are. I'm sure I can get others to help you. This thread has a topic- it isn't you...or me.

Al Gutierrez
07-21-2007, 07:56 PM
This thread has a topic- it isn't you...or me.

Gentlemen,

I appreciate any and all input that you've provided to the forum (and myself) on this and other threads, but let's please stick to the topic.

Mike, I asked you a number of questions back in my post #44 that you never answered. Rather than questioning Dan's answers to me why not just answer me directly?

Mike Sigman
07-21-2007, 08:58 PM
Mike, I asked you a number of questions back in my post #44 that you never answered. Rather than questioning Dan's answers to me why not just answer me directly?Al, to a reasonable degree I've answered those questions in a few other threads, more than once. The how's and why's with diagrams and explanations. If I'd never discussed it, I would have given it a shot again, but I feel like I've given it some fairly good coverage in "Baseline Skillset" and other threads.

In terms of doing something automatically without thinking, we all learn to do many things like that. Driving, swimming, taking falls, etc. "Mushin" doesn't mean a lot more than that, in reality. It's why Sunadomari, Shioda, and others show that the critical moment is when Uke touches, grabs, attacks... your ki should mesh at that moment, technique or not. Shioda has a tape/dvd that shows a lot of emphasis on that one aspect, but I can't think of the exact name of the tape at the moment. When you touch someone you "feel" their holes and you combine with their forces automatically so that they go into a hole. Then you do a technique or you bounce them away or whatever. That's "aiki". Techniques are not important; only aiki is.

FWIW

Mike

Al Gutierrez
07-24-2007, 01:18 AM
When you touch someone you "feel" their holes and you combine with their forces automatically so that they go into a hole. Then you do a technique or you bounce them away or whatever. That's "aiki". Techniques are not important; only aiki is.

Are you saying aiki is primarily a sensitivity and response skill?

How do you define a "hole" in this case? When you say holes I immediately think of a weakness or weakpoint in their body structure, form, or balance, or perhaps a strategic gap. Is that what you mean? Or something else?

I agree that individual techniques such as ikkyo or kotegaeshi are of lesser importance - and I can relate to some of the other posts that emphasized the keeping or maintaining of one's "equilibrium" (form, one point, balance, structure, contradictory tensions, etc...). I learned it as 'keeping ones integrity'. But techniques are still important, you have to be able to apply the skill otherwise it's like those monks that could easily be pushed over.

A.G.

DH
07-24-2007, 06:11 AM
Al

The monks that could be easily pushed over from a living or moving center is a good example of just what WE have been talking about.
People here continually get confused over a static training device/method and their brains go on neutral and they don't even hear the rest.

I am only concerned with skills that can be utilized under pressure and in motion. That said, thee single best method to developing a living center? Stillness. Then solo training drills.
Then and only then do you concern yourself with mastering it in motion. There is a thousand year history of this training method in all of the Asian arts we admire. The stories of solo retreats "to train" are so numerous they get boring. Just what do ya suppose they were doing out there, all by themselves?

Aiki
Aiki is not something you "do" in "response' passively. Nor is it something you "do" forcefully. From training, your motions become captured aiki in you. Therefore your motions have balanced intent. Contact with anything then creates potentials for aiki in motion. When you have retained structure in you- your body becomes unnaturally sensitive to structure in others. Think of thier motions coming in contact with a large distribution system. Your body receives and sends their power, absorbs and projects at will. What you don't address is the increased ability to generate power in strikes, particularly from short distances. If you are of a grappling bent these skills become a handy skill.

Unless you have mastered it in you-you'll never master it in moving connections. And, as the years go by, I still train solo; every, single, day. But don't take my word for it, read my tag line. The fully expressed quote from Sagawa says something like people would not believe the work that he does every day to master his body, and that most would find it too daunting. Most have noted, that many in aiki arts considered Sagawa one of the true masters of aiki if not thee best alive in his time.
The work he outlined as his best training method was? Solo training.
His goals in training?
Application-in- motion

Techniques
Techniques become secondary in concern. Pick a couple of different arts and go train them. You may be surprised at how you "suddenly understand" varous arts waza, both faster, and better as you move along.

Mike Sigman
07-24-2007, 07:53 AM
Are you saying aiki is primarily a sensitivity and response skill? No, I didn't say that. How do you define a "hole" in this case? When you say holes I immediately think of a weakness or weakpoint in their body structure, form, or balance, or perhaps a strategic gap. Is that what you mean? Or something else? Well, it has to do with someone's balance, but it's more something you feel through the jin/kokyu connection. Shioda and others often just show their skill with "holes", if you'll watch some of the multiple-attackers stuff. In a superficial way, you could say "Oh, that's just balance", but it's a more subtle thing. "Listening" is a term that applies to it.
I agree that individual techniques such as ikkyo or kotegaeshi are of lesser importance - and I can relate to some of the other posts that emphasized the keeping or maintaining of one's "equilibrium" (form, one point, balance, structure, contradictory tensions, etc...). I learned it as 'keeping ones integrity'. But techniques are still important, you have to be able to apply the skill otherwise it's like those monks that could easily be pushed over. I think it's easy to play the internal-strength card too much and miss the mark, too. Aikido without kokyu/internal-strength is not really Aikido... but someone with some internal-strength skills does not necessarily have any Aikido skills, either. In fact, my position is more along the lines that an Aikidoist without internal skills is no more than an amateur and someone with some internal skills but no real Aikido training is no more than an amateur commentator, either. Both miss the mark.

If you think back to the videos that show O-Sensei "bouncing" someone away who pushes on his chest, thigh, etc., that's cool ...and in a way those sort of demonstrations are used throughout Asian martial arts to show a glimpse of the "essence" of Asian martial arts. But those kinds of demo's can actually be done fairly easily and without a lot of training, yet the demonstrater may have no real martial skills at all. In fact, that's too often the case... the guys whom you see in so many different Asian videos from so many different styles are showing this acme of martial skills, but it's a facade. I'm reminded of an incident in which some yiquan guys challenged members of the Beijing SanDa team and the average yiquan guy lasted about 14 seconds... all those "bounce aways" skills, etc., didn't pay off, even though they really do nominally represent the essence of martial arts (that's a long discussion in itself, though).

On the other hand, just the techniques of Aikido (or other arts) can be meaningless, too. If we take a rudimentary technique like a simple "push", it's pretty obvious that there can be pushes using the jin/kokyu, etc., and there can be pushes using just arms and shoulders. Obviously, pushes (a technique, right?) using just arms and shoulder are wrong. Ikkyo and kotegaeshi using just arms and shoulder are wrong, too, by extension of logic. Pretty much everything can be extrapolated from that starting point.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Ron Tisdale
07-24-2007, 08:24 AM
Besides which, if you master this, you really break balance on contact. Which means almost ANY waza is now possible. If the balance break is severe enough, the waza becomes almost besides the point.

Best,
Ron

Erik Johnstone
07-24-2007, 08:36 AM
Besides which, if you master this, you really break balance on contact. Which means almost ANY waza is now possible. If the balance break is severe enough, the waza becomes almost besides the point.

Best,
Ron

This has been precisely my experience (on the receiving end of course! :) )

Hey Dan! I'll talk to you soon!

Mike:

There are quite a few Shioda videos out there...any chance that you (or perhaps Ron) might be able to pin down the one that you are thinking of?

Thanks!

Erik Johnstone

Mike Sigman
07-24-2007, 09:17 AM
There are quite a few Shioda videos out there...any chance that you (or perhaps Ron) might be able to pin down the one that you are thinking of?I like this one, Erik, but I can't remember where I got in (from the internet, though). Someone should be able to tell us:
http://www.neijia.com/ShiodaDVD.jpg

Best.

Mike

Erik Johnstone
07-24-2007, 09:24 AM
I like this one, Erik, but I can't remember where I got in (from the internet, though). Someone should be able to tell us:
http://www.neijia.com/ShiodaDVD.jpg

Best.

Mike

Thanks, Mike. Probably can get it through Mugendo Budogu.

Respects,

Erik

Fred Little
07-24-2007, 09:33 AM
From today's NY Times:

Fascinating.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/24/health/24hand.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1185291103-lBe6F0edeYtxTYZEvTxeVg

gdandscompserv
07-24-2007, 11:31 AM
From today's NY Times:

Fascinating.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/24/health/24hand.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1185291103-lBe6F0edeYtxTYZEvTxeVg
Yeah, that is interesting. Thanks Fred

Cady Goldfield
07-24-2007, 03:31 PM
Thank you for the link, Fred.

My 90-year-old father has had that condition for years, caused by repeated strain from his trade as an automotive and marine upholsterer. He retired at age 82, and at that time the fascia of his hand was so thick that you could see bands of it drawing his fingers inward. He had surgery to correct it, but the tissue has grown back over time even though he no longer is putting the stress on his hand that he did when he was punching grommets, cutting leather and leatherette with upholstery scissors, and other manual chores.

Fred Little
07-24-2007, 05:03 PM
To those of you who said "thanks for the link," you're quite welcome.

To those of you who haven't clicked it yet, do so quickly, because it will soon disappear behind the NY Times subscription wall.

It's an amazing piece that makes it clear how profoundly important the fascia is in defining our range of motion, as well as providing a look at a comparatively new and radically non-invasive form of "surgery" which has shown astonishing results in restoring flexibility and function to hands suffering from fascia-related limitations.

Best,

FL

tarik
07-24-2007, 05:13 PM
To those of you who said "thanks for the link," you're quite welcome.

Thanks, it was quite fascinating.

Regards,