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CarlRylander
07-02-2007, 05:37 AM
Has anyone seen this video?

It looks a lot less choreographed than some!

Impressive.

Dewey
07-02-2007, 07:21 AM
Has anyone seen this video?

It looks a lot less choreographed than some!

Impressive.

Which one? Post a link, please. Shioda Shihan had many filmed demos and instructional videos...some better than others. However, I certainly agree...watching his powerful & precise technique certainly gets the blood pumping! Reminds us Aikidoka that Aikido is indeed a martial art, and not a navel-gazing art!

CarlRylander
07-02-2007, 08:47 AM
Here's the link, I think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIowy89IXco

Ron Tisdale
07-02-2007, 09:27 AM
Yep. good stuff.

Best,
Ron (it's a keeper...)

Nafis Zahir
07-02-2007, 02:21 PM
Yep. good stuff.

Best,
Ron (it's a keeper...)

Hey Ron,

Do you the history behind the reason for Shioda Sensei and the Yoshinkan serperating from the Aikikai?

Ron Tisdale
07-02-2007, 02:38 PM
Hi Nafis,

Never was a separation. Yoshinkan was actually created at or around the same time, maybe even first...I forget the details, but Ueshiba gave permission for Shioda Sensei to form the Yoshinkan. I think some people at a company asked Shioda Sensei to teach, and Ueshiba was fine with it, and it began from there.

Steven Miranda's web page, the source for all things yoshinkan in NA and many other places, should have it...If I see the link I'll post it.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
07-02-2007, 02:44 PM
http://www.seikeikan.com/index.php
Yoshinkan 'House for Cultivating the Spirit' was founded in 1955 by Shioda Gozo Kancho, a top student of Aikido founder Ueshiba Morehei O'Sensei (great teacher) before and after World War II. With full support of his teacher the Yoshinkan was responsible for the early spread of Aikido after World War II and has some 150 basic techniques, which are practiced repeatedly. These enable the student to master the remaining ones, which total some 3000 overall.

Can't find the actual timing relative to the Aikikai...gotta dig deeper. Or wait a few minutes...Chris Li will let us know!

Best,
Ron

From Aikido Journal...

Aikikai Foundation. The Zaidan Hojin Aikikai was established on 9 February 1948 and is the legal entity under which the AIKIKAI HOMBU DOJO operates.

So the Aikikai was founded first it seems.

B,
R

aikilouis
07-02-2007, 02:57 PM
More details here : http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3484

Thanks to Stanley Pranin.

Roman Kremianski
07-02-2007, 09:03 PM
Would anyone who understands the video be able to explain that jab he does to the uke's throat, who then throws himself backwards?

thanks

raul rodrigo
07-02-2007, 09:43 PM
Would anyone who understands the video be able to explain that jab he does to the uke's throat, who then throws himself backwards?

thanks

Takeshi Kimeda of the Yoshinkai lives in Toronto. He could explain it you.

Steven
07-02-2007, 09:45 PM
From Stan Pranin's article on Gozo Shioda Kancho

The subject of how Yoshinkan Aikido became separate from the Aikikai is little understood. When Shioda started his Aikido activities in earnest after the war, Morihei Ueshiba was still in retirement in Iwama and classes at the Aikikai dojo (formerly the Kobukan) were irregular and sparsely attended. In fact, several families left homeless due to the bombing of Tokyo lived in the dojo. At one point, it was even used as a dance hall!

It was against this backdrop that Shioda achieved several early successes as the Yoshinkan grew steadily. Somewhat later, the Aikikai gradually began to regain momentum under the direction of Ueshiba's son Kisshomaru and the founder himself spent increasingly more time in Tokyo. Thus, there never occurred a formal split between the two organizations despite their rather different approaches to Aikido. The two groups simply evolved independently while maintaining more or less cordial ties. Up until his death, Shioda and Kisshomaru made regular appearances on formal occasions at each other activities.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-02-2007, 09:45 PM
I recall him using that example in "Total Aikido" -- a good technical book, by the way. In "Total Aikido", he uses it as an illustration of "focused power" -- in that case, I guess, putting the whole body's energy into a jab with the fingertips.

My hunch is that it's going to just the base of the throat; that soft spot near the collarbones.

I don't think he necessarily means to show it as a "real technique" per se, but as a dramatic example of power concentrated onto an opponent's weak spot.

CarlRylander
07-03-2007, 04:09 AM
That bit where he throws someone with a flick of his hips is good.

Also where he throws three at once.

Haowen Chan
07-03-2007, 05:57 AM
Wow, awesome vid compilation! Now I am curious, what is the ki teaching methodology of Yoshinkan? From what I have read, they don't actually teach basic internal skills stuff explicitly like the ki society do? And yet the video shows Shioda-sensei teaching higher level ki applications? Sorry if I misunderstood, I don't understand Japanese so I don't know what he's saying.

Dewey
07-03-2007, 07:16 AM
Would anyone who understands the video be able to explain that jab he does to the uke's throat, who then throws himself backwards?

thanks

I don't understand Japanese, nor do I study Yoshinkan Aikido, so my comments/observations can be taken with a grain of salt. However, I'd have to ask: have you ever been struck in the throat at moderate to full speed? If yes, how did it feel and what was your reactions? If no, I'd ask a sparring buddy (sans gloves & protective gear) to do so you can test the soundess of this technique to your satisfaction. True enough, it's a demo and some ukes play it up for the camera. However, I don't think his reaction is too far off the mark. Also, like many of the atemi waza of Aikido, it is also an unbalancing technique. Even if you're not successful in "dropping him," at list you got him to flinch and to instinctively react with his arms...creating an opening for application of another technique which would yield more desirable results.

Ron Tisdale
07-03-2007, 03:26 PM
Wow, awesome vid compilation! Now I am curious, what is the ki teaching methodology of Yoshinkan? From what I have read, they don't actually teach basic internal skills stuff explicitly like the ki society do? And yet the video shows Shioda-sensei teaching higher level ki applications? Sorry if I misunderstood, I don't understand Japanese so I don't know what he's saying.

In my opinion, if you read Shioda Sensei's books, you'll get a good feel for how things like this are taught today in the yoshinkan. When people make reference to ki, it is usually as a joke...more or less. The more formal explanations have to do with balancing all of the bodies "powers". Ki power has been the focus of some clinics at the Doshinkan where I train (very occasionally only just now, due to work and family constraints).

I think the approach that people like Mike Sigman and Dan Harden take is very useful and also very rare. I have seen and heard snippets of the things they stress at the Doshinkan, but I have not been able to absorb the lessons in my mind and body to a satisfactory extent. I have felt various seniors however, who exhibit very powerful body movement which to me (as a relative ki novice) is one of the hallmarks of using ki in their waza. Doesn't feel like a wrestler's strength...some of these people are/were not young or powerfull that way...but the power was there, clear, and unmistakable.

In my opinion, I don't know much, yada yada yada....insert applicable disclaimer here.

Best,
Ron

Nikopol
07-03-2007, 06:06 PM
I am curious, what is the ki teaching methodology of Yoshinkan? From what I have read, they don't actually teach basic internal skills stuff explicitly like the ki society do?

Funny thing is in the US one hears of ki - use your ki - without ever training in Aikido or the martial arts. Yet studying Yoshinkan in Japan, I have never heard the word mentioned once. In Aikikai I do hear it mentioned.

My theory has been that 'ki' is a rather common word in Japanese. It occurs in many phrases.

'ki wo tsukete' be careful
'ki ni naru' I am concerned about that.
'sono ki ga suru' That's what I think (intuit)
'kimochi ii' that feels good
'ki ga sumu' to get over it
'ki ga kiku' to be aware of someone's needs
'ki ga magaru' to be bent out of shape
'ki ga chisai' to be timid

the list could go on and on. It might make a good thread. But I reasoned that perhaps it is just as common as the English word 'It'
and maybe ... would be the equivelant of non-english speakers telling us to focus our 'it'. You know, try it. feel it. deflect it...

Always worth asking, however, so one evening I mentioned to a 7th dan sensei that, 'I have never heard mention of ki in Yoshinkan'. He thought about it for a bit and said, "Ima made wa, ki wo mitagoto nai na" = I have never seen ki.

Well I certainly thought, 'neither can you see electricity or sound; I thought that implicit' but I did not push him on the matter.

I don't know if I feel ki in Yoshinkan but through the kihondosa and tenchinage, etc, I seem to feel similar things: ten and chi for example. Perhaps I might not have noticed that if I had focused on ki. But Yoshinkan seems to be focused on conditioning the entire body, and as a vessel so conditioned it seems that it becomes a good conductor of ki throughout. But again, no-one has mentioned it.

Perhaps Yoshinkan is like Han Solo with a blaster who does not feel the need for ancient religions and mystical energy fields. :-)Perhaps yoshinkan does not want to name something that we will never know until we find it within ourselves.

But that is the situation as I have observed it thus far.

Haowen Chan
07-03-2007, 08:34 PM
Hmm, interesting to know. To be sure, to teach the techniques first and let the student puzzle out the core body skills later, is not an unusual teaching method; in martial arts history the "internal schools" where the body skills are emphasized at beginner levels are a minority I think rather than the norm. It's very interesting that aikido can be taught either way depending on ryuha and you end up with high level practitioners either way.

Much thanks Ron and Vincent.

xuzen
07-04-2007, 09:25 AM
My teacher always said... look at Kancho's footwork.

Boon.

Roman Kremianski
07-04-2007, 10:46 PM
I'd ask a sparring buddy (sans gloves & protective gear) to do so you can test the soundess of this technique to your satisfaction.

With me standing straight up with my arms at my side, or with arms up and chin down?

I like Shioda Sensei...but why are his ukes always so over-eager? The man obviously has good technique...it just looks cheesey when his ukes have to ruin it by acting like they're in mortal agony or experiencing a wild seizure. I mean I know nikyo hurts, but c'mon...

Just annoys me when people do wild breakfalls just for the sake of it.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-05-2007, 07:35 AM
I like Shioda Sensei...but why are his ukes always so over-eager? The man obviously has good technique...it just looks cheesey when his ukes have to ruin it by acting like they're in mortal agony or experiencing a wild seizure. I mean I know nikyo hurts, but c'mon...

Just annoys me when people do wild breakfalls just for the sake of it.

I agree. Although I hear that part of it is that, honestly, he was kind of brutal to his students, and they developed a bit of fear of him. One of his less admirable qualities. But yes. I'm dismayed when they start yelling out and stuff.

As for the "ki" thing -- while "ki" doesn't come up much, maybe, I recall Shioda-sensei talking extensively about "kokyu" in his various books (e.g. Total Aikido, Aikido Shugyo). I believe he summarized his opinion by saying that kokyu was a combination of:

1) Timing
2) Focused power

Interestingly, for the founder of a style known for its "external" emphasis, he says again and again that kokyu is essential. For instance, in Total Aikido, he remarks that if you have good form but no timing, you'll likely have no effect, but if you have good timing, you can "do a lot of damage" even if your form is poor.

Ron Tisdale
07-05-2007, 08:19 AM
I think Japanese Martial Art culture is full of "schilling for the master" as Mike Sigman likes to call it.

But personally, unless you have taken ukemi for Shioda Sensei, I wouldn't classify what his students do as that. I've talked with some people who took ukemi for Shioda Sensei...my instructor is one of them. From what I understand, the pain in most of the demonstrations is very real. And the throws as well.

As to the eagerness...one thing that was very important to Shioda Sensei was to show strong spirit. That can be very much mis-understood when looking in from the outside.

Best,
Ron

dbotari
07-05-2007, 08:38 AM
Ron,

Just noticed the birthday cake icon. Happy Birthday from one Yoshinkaner to another. Best wishes and may you have many more years on the mats!

Dan

Ron Tisdale
07-05-2007, 08:42 AM
Osu! and thanks!

Now if I can just stop working so darn much...

B,
R

Roman Kremianski
07-05-2007, 09:55 PM
But personally, unless you have taken ukemi for Shioda Sensei, I wouldn't classify what his students do as that. I've talked with some people who took ukemi for Shioda Sensei...my instructor is one of them. From what I understand, the pain in most of the demonstrations is very real. And the throws as well.

I take ukemi for my own shihan on a regular basis...the energy most people consume wielding a pencil, he can use to break a wrist. I am not underestimating Shioda Sensei, but I know when things are being exaggerated a bit.

I especially like the part where the ukes swing the bokken, miss, then proceed into a perfect breakfall. Yeah, I can definitely see the real pain there.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-05-2007, 10:04 PM
People who think that because Yoshinkan is precise and rigorous, it must also have fewer aikibunnies than other styles, are sadly mistaken.

In fact, I think that sometimes the precision and rigor encourages aikibunny behavior, because there's the notion of "technical correctness" rather than just immediate feedback from your partner.

JAMJTX
07-06-2007, 12:21 AM
I take ukemi for my own shihan on a regular basis...the energy most people consume wielding a pencil, he can use to break a wrist. I am not underestimating Shioda Sensei, but I know when things are being exaggerated a bit.

I especially like the part where the ukes swing the bokken, miss, then proceed into a perfect breakfall. Yeah, I can definitely see the real pain there.

I'd suggest you find a local Yoshinkan dojo and feel it for yourself. Then come back and tell us if there was no pain. If it's as woosified as you seem to think it is, you won't even work up a sweat so this is not much of a challenge for you. I look forward to your report here.

xuzen
07-06-2007, 07:30 AM
People who think that because Yoshinkan is precise and rigorous, it must also have fewer aikibunnies than other styles, are sadly mistaken.

In fact, I think that sometimes the precision and rigor encourages aikibunny behavior, because there's the notion of "technical correctness" rather than just immediate feedback from your partner.

At early stage, when one is learning the roots/fundamentals, it is important to to be precise technically. Once you are at intermediate level, you can experiment more in jiyu-waza session. You get plenty of partner feedback then.

Paul, the signature precise and robotic pedagogically approach in Yoshinkan is mainly pedagogical. Nothing more, nothing less.

Boon.

Roman Kremianski
07-06-2007, 07:52 AM
I'd suggest you find a local Yoshinkan dojo and feel it for yourself. Then come back and tell us if there was no pain. If it's as woosified as you seem to think it is, you won't even work up a sweat so this is not much of a challenge for you. I look forward to your report here.

Again, I did not say the ukes are completely faking their pain. I do Aikido no softer and I know what it is. It's the spontaneous break falls they do that I brought up.

Nikopol
07-06-2007, 09:38 AM
"I like Shioda Sensei...but why are his ukes always so over-eager? "

Um.. because he is a legend and the father of Yoshinkan? That should be obvious. Also remember that most of the videos we see are him in his seventies; when he was young he was apparently hard as nails, and earned his admiration. What would you have the ukes do? Get him in a headlock and start shouting 'See he is not invincible!' or perhaps just stand there and cluck, 'um, no, that lock isn't really working, Sensei'. Put yourself into the dojo environment where we have discipline, respect, co-operation and gratitude, all to enhance our learning and better our characters. It's not as if the videos have cartoon sound effects!

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-06-2007, 01:11 PM
I think Vincent's pretty much right.

Roman Kremianski
07-08-2007, 09:49 AM
So you've just basically confirmed the whole thing is staged out of respect for Shioda Sensei. I guess I understand.

aikilouis
07-08-2007, 10:18 AM
Roman, you seem to be determined to conform what you see to your own opinion.

jennifer paige smith
07-08-2007, 11:21 AM
"I like Shioda Sensei...but why are his ukes always so over-eager? "

Um.. because he is a legend and the father of Yoshinkan? That should be obvious. Also remember that most of the videos we see are him in his seventies; when he was young he was apparently hard as nails, and earned his admiration. What would you have the ukes do? Get him in a headlock and start shouting 'See he is not invincible!' or perhaps just stand there and cluck, 'um, no, that lock isn't really working, Sensei'. Put yourself into the dojo environment where we have discipline, respect, co-operation and gratitude, all to enhance our learning and better our characters. It's not as if the videos have cartoon sound effects!

About ten years age my dojo was considering hosting a shihan that was coming through the area to another dojo. We watched the video of his training and weren't impressed in any particular direction with him. But he did,obviously,have very great basic aiki waza. His ukes didn't seem to be very aggressive and he didn't appear to be very dynamic or have much of a personality at all. In faith and opportunity, we decided to host him despite our luke warm responses to the VIDEO.
Let me tell you how grateful we were that we could discern the difference between the flat dimension of film, empty of ki filled editing or aesthetics, and the reality of energy that is present in people and practice. In other words this teacher was fantastic. Warm, powerful, precise, humble, skilled and respectfully well learned under O'Sensei. He was a walking temple of tradition. He was able to fill our huge dojo with a spirit that was latent before he arrived. And we trained, in deep inspiration, in his lessons for the entire year. That is ki. That is power. And it was the difference between opinion and experience. That was the difference between the video and reality. Energy, presence and truth and a little faith in between.

If a person doesn't want to put their money where there mouth is in training and step into deep territory with a teacher that they are skeptical of, then they are just talking about a landscape based on a map to people who have actually been there. People on the path know the difference.

Dewey
07-08-2007, 02:22 PM
Let me tell you how grateful we were that we could discern the difference between the flat dimension of film, empty of ki filled editing or aesthetics, and the reality of energy that is present in people and practice....

If a person doesn't want to put their money where there mouth is in training and step into deep territory with a teacher that they are skeptical of, then they are just talking about a landscape based on a map to people who have actually been there. People on the path know the difference.

Cool! Filmed aiki never really conveys the reality of what's actually going on. Call me a wimp, but I would have no desire whatsoever to be an uke for Shioda Shihan...may he rest in peace!

It's easy to be skeptical of filmed aiki. It looks fake because it's only 2-dimensional. Stepping onto the mat and actually being an uke with another skilled Aikidoka is an eye-opening experience. We have an assistant instructor in my dojo who has earned high dan ranking in other arts (Judo and Kenpo) as well as Aikido...not to mention having been a CQC instructor in the Marine Corps decades ago. He's pushing 70 years old, but can still easily mop the floor with any of us, dan and kyu alike! He always rebuffs us for not "attacking sincerely!" He expects us to take real swings at him, or attempt to "take him to the ground" (as grapplers like to call it). I hate being his uke!

Shioda Shihan had developed a reputation for being tough & hard, even though I never studied under him or personally know anyone who has. I will not begrudge him of that, regardless if some folks don't find his filmed demonstrations convincing enough to their satisfaction.

jennifer paige smith
07-08-2007, 07:10 PM
Simply put, some of the teachers with whom I have trained were reputed to be brutes and we were advised to enter with caution. I figured a short time of pain was worth the lifetime expereince to touch the hand of a master and to survive the lesson. I figured right. I got used to experiencing pain as a by-product of a larger educational experience. That attitude has led me in many courageous endeavors, not just on the mat.

I'm liking your posts these days Brian. I also read your comments on Ueshibas Aikido Not the Best forum about film and ki. True is true.

Roman Kremianski
07-08-2007, 10:28 PM
He expects us to take real swings at him, or attempt to "take him to the ground" (as grapplers like to call it). I hate being his uke!

Pretty intriguing sensei! Has anybody stepped up so far?

Just curious...

Dewey
07-08-2007, 10:46 PM
Pretty intriguing sensei! Has anybody stepped up so far?

Just curious...

Well, whenever he instructs class, he expects your best. However, it's a sliding scale when it comes to the class taught. In the Beginner's level class, he's "easy" on you (I still remember the nikkyo he did on me months ago :dead:). However, from what I hear about in the Advanced level classes (I'm still in the kyu level), he can be pretty intense (that old drill sarge comes out :eek:). He's 69 years old, so he's too old for "throwdowns" and the like, besides the fact that he's simply not interested in such things. He's been around the block and has nothing to prove to anyone...that's why we're honored to have him at our dojo, and it's an honor to study under such a man.

As well, we're not that type of dojo. We're into the Art of Peace. :)

Roman Kremianski
07-08-2007, 11:01 PM
Not talking about a throwdown mate! If an instructor was to openly invite a take down attempt, I would do it simply to see what technique he'd apply!

wayneth
07-10-2007, 10:12 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUtQ1VA-qnY

This to me is a good example that shows Shioda Sensei and his ukes ain't faking being thrown, since there are several perfect examples of his ukes taking honest ukemis. Well thats my opinion on what they are doing anyway.

wayne

Basia Halliop
07-10-2007, 11:09 AM
Uh... you might have been better off not posting that second video... the first video looked pretty decent, maybe the odd moment here and there but overall pretty solid and respectable. I didn't really see what the fuss was about...

This one, sorry, but parts of it look to me like a clever Charlie Chaplin routine (or maybe something out of the Princess Bride -- our intrepid hero is attacked by an oafish bumbling giant who keeps tripping over himself, and juggles said oaf around without pausing in his witty conversation with the pretty girl), and now I can finally see what people are complaining about. :(.

As a stage performer it's entertaining, but as a martial artist, the way it's set up makes him look kind of silly and undermines him, which is a shame because it looks like he's actually good.