Eye for Eye, Blow for Blow?

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[russians in town]

First of all I'm a difficult uke- means I resist too much and unnecessary. I get hurt because of that, my body is permanently bruised plus I'm clumsy and not skilled enough to perform that so-much-desired flow. It absolutely doesn't mean my teachers are bad-they are awesome, it's just me (unfortunately). I may not be right, but I have my own reasons to resist and I'm paying for that with all that physical pain.

So, during all my time in the dojo I got comments such as I was speaking too much, I was not skilled enough to train with (black belt more preferred), I resisted too much, etc…There is some truth in all of that, but hey, you are my friends, guys! Ok, you got the picture of me…

My question though is if it's acceptable to follow "Eye for Eye" rule in Aikido training? In this case it's more like blow for blow.

I was doing suwariwaza with one of our black belts and tried to give him a little bit of hard time to make him work. Sometimes, when I see my partner is open, I can give him/her an atemi as a reminder to move to protect one-self or to keep a block. It is never a serious full strength atemi, more like a very light punch or kick or in most cases there is just pretence of it. Everybody does it, everyone accepts it, but not with that guy.

I don't know his reasons, but he likes to follow "eye for eye" or as I mentioned earlier blow for blow rule. Every time I train with him he returns whatever I did to him in the way that feels like punishment. Whenever I twist his wrist or punch or kick or throw him he repeats it on me, but with more power than it's necessary as if teaching me a lesson "you got what you asked for".

So, we were doing suwariwaza and while I was falling on my back I managed to kick his upper body side, but nothing serious of course. Well, when it was my turn to be nage I was struggling a lot as he was resisting (in the end he is a good black belt and more skillful than me). When I tried to throw him away he kicked me as I did earlier, but his kick was much more powerful so I ended up in a foot or so away from my previous place. I don't know if he aimed or not, but he kicked me exactly in the center of my chest-a few inches left or right or down and it could be pretty bad for me as a female.

I finished my round and went to the locker room to wash my hands and cool myself down. And then it hit me, my so- nourished self-pity: was it necessary for him to do that to me? Do I really deserve such attitude? Should not we be above vengeance? I could not control it, so I got some tears (just a little bit).

Is he right? Should I be completely submissive as uke? Should I just follow the rules and never challenge the opponent?

I'm a very optimistic person and can take criticism well, so whenever I complain about my injures it's always a joke (but outsiders seriously think that my husband abuses me on a regular base).

Yulia

[Roman Kremianski]

I have a sempai exactly like you. I am shameful to admit that I sometimes do the "Blow for Blow" thing.

Bear in mind that it's extremely easy for uke to strike nage and find "openings" when the technique is done slow. Are you doing this at full speed?

Also remember that wherever you can hit nage, he can hit you. (Generally speaking) You don't always need to point out an area where you can kick/punch, because odds are nage has already seen it first and is not doing it because you are in regulated dojo practice. :)

[raul rodrigo]

I dont know how hard he hits and how hard you hit. Its hard to convey that in writing. But offhand it seems to me that this is all standard practice for some sempai and as long as no teeth are lost and you can walk away from it, its not a problem. I have sempai who have done something similar to me when I threw them hard; one sempai then came back at me with the hardest irimi nage ive ever felt. But no biggie. Its fine.

But I don't indicate openings to my sempai with atemi, because they don't leave a lot of openings and frankly if i were to make a standard practice of that, I have a lot more openings and i am sure they could make life much more difficult for me if they chose. So that is a can of worms i will not open (unless the sempai in question is senior only in name, not in waza--but thats a different story.)

My feeling is, you upped the ante on your sempai and it's your sempai's job to show you that you cannot just up the ante like that and not be willing to take some grief in return. I dont mean it would be okay to do you some damage, though. Just a reminder. Just how emphatic the reminder should be, though, could be open to discussion.

[Janet Rosen]

So it is ok for you to punch, kick, etc, but not ok for him too?
I'm not sure I understand the rules in your dojo....

[Walker]

Is there some rule in your dojo against comunicating? For example, after you traded kicks with your sempai why don't you ask them what they are trying to communicate? Be sure you can answer the question of what you are trying to communicate. Because it seems you are starting a lot of this.

BTW - if you were in my dojo I would tell you that you are overstepping your bounds and cut it out now. You are assuming you know more that your senior partners and the sensei in charge of the class. While that may or may not be true, that assumption is not appropriate in a dojo. (I assume it is not because you are the one getting beat up.)

[Drew Mailman]

The problem might be communication. You need to let him know that you'll be doing that, and that you'll go easy if he goes easy, and you can both learn.

But if you're practicing something your sensei demonstrated, then do it how it was demonstrated.

[Walker]

BTW - if you were in my dojo I would tell you that you are overstepping your bounds and cut it out now. You are assuming you know more that your senior partners and the sensei in charge of the class. While that may or may not be true, that assumption is not appropriate in a dojo. (I assume it is not because you are the one getting beat up.)
To clarify. I mean that I assume you do not know more than you sensei and sempai because you are the one getting beat up.

[happysod]

Janet made a beautifully succinct point, why should there be different rules?Should I just follow the rules and never challenge the opponent? No, challenge is part of practice. However, it's up to you to assume responsibility for your actions and accept that if you go outside the designated technique or training pattern, any extra pain you receive is solely due to your own decision.

Trying to be a smart-arse is fun and I fully recommend it (at the appropriate time and with the appropriate training partner of course), but the flip side is it often hurts and as the old joke goes "It hurts when I do this - well don't do it then".

[philippe willaume]

Well
For what it is worth here is my ten pence.

I would not say that it is not an eye for and eye really.
You did it to him to show there was an opening there, and he told you well smarty pants you have the same opening.
You know sometime what is fine for one is not fine for another person. Sometime a kick or punch works much better than expected.
I just punched a girl in the breast yesterday. It was supposed to be to ribs but she dropped down moving her hips away. (I ain relatively high not to get the floating ribs)
So instead of stopping in time, she got a fair wack.
When you throw punch and kick things like that will happen. That is the way it is.

Or he is just an arse and sees that as a challenge on his authority, knowledge or seniority, or he was having a bad day.

It is a bit like the saying you can laugh about anything but not with every one.
In any case if you can not take it back, you better not dish it out.

In your case, i think you could discuss that with him, so that he know that you are not being awkward on purpose and you should be able to workout something together.
Like being compliant in the first few technique so that both of you can study the move and when it is your turn then tell him that you wish him to resist a bit more (and that it is not a reason to let loose the hounds of war and snot you nose in the rice canvas)
One things bear in mind as well, is that sometime techniques are used to support an exercise and in such case they may not be 100% functional.
phil

[graham]

Our dojo talks about 'respecting grade' and - in a sense - that means I can point out weaknesses in a way that a Dan grade shouldn't.

That doesn't mean that they let us get away with something, but I've never needed to be kicked to have the point made.

I'm a complete Aikido newbie, but as a human being it sounds like this guy just needs to grow up.

[SeiserL]

Every time I train with him he returns whatever I did to him in the way that feels like punishment.
Now you know how they feel.

Open up, listen to the feedback you are being given, Train in a way that they benefit from training with you. Being a good uke is harder than being a good tori/nage.

[Roman Kremianski]

I wonder how much "opening atemi" would have to be exchanged between uke and nage before it turns into genuine brawling? :D

[senshincenter]

Should I be completely submissive as uke? Should I just follow the rules and never challenge the opponent?

First, let us note, "uke" is not an opponent. Uke is a training partner, a training partner in a team that is not practicing self-defense techniques, not practicing sparring, not practicing fighting. In Kihon Waza, as Uke, you are out to fulfill your role, but since your role as uke should be to attack as fully and with as much integrity as is safe (for your ukemi skill and for nage's skill at aiki), you should never think of this as being "submissive." That said, pointing out openings in Kihon Waza is totally a waste of time, as all it does is interrupt the accumulation of repetitions, which are necessary for detail to become embodied, and thus for skill to mature with time. When you allow for real-life learning allowances (e.g. your senpai not taking advantage of your openings in your attempts to "show others their openings," for fear your ukemi is not up to the challenge - not capable of keeping you safe), which already bog down the accumulation of properly executed repetitions, this waste of time is even a bigger waste of time.

If you want to show "openings" jump out of Kihon Waza training, set up and use live training environments (e.g. "Okay, you come in with anything, and you be ready for anything."). Not to be rude, but can I ask if you train in live training environments? My reason for asking is that my experience has led me to hold that folks that try and make Kihon Waza training the answer to all things martial are folks that have little to none when it comes to other forms of training. If this captures your experience, perhaps then you won't find it so crazy to be "submissive" in Kihon Waza training if you also find some avenues for more live training environments - but be aware, you are most likely going to get hurt, and hurt bad (where a kick in the torso or the breast has to be the least of your worries).

Finally, I'm feeling you should look more closely at your reaction to your senpai's reaction, looking past "He did it to me," "He's the one to blame," "Isn't he wrong - aren't I right." There's a lot of "victimentality" in there, and that always speaks of egocentricism, and egocentrism always speaks of a loss of awareness, and a loss of awareness always leads to more ignorance, and more ignorance always leads to more suffering. The mat is a microcosm of Life and behind all this current suffering in the dojo lies a loss of insight regarding what an uke is, what openings are, what kihon waza is, where the learning allowances are in your training, how to improve at nage, how to improve at uke, how and why people are reacting to your showing of openings, why you feel a need to show people their openings, why you really teared up in the bathroom, etc.

In my dojo, we get newer folks that come in sometimes wanting to expose openings. It usually last for about one or two reps, as we give them plenty of reason to better spend their time learning ukemi - which is the same reason for not wanting to waste time showing openings in Kihon Waza. In Kihon Waza, everyone just works on as much of the form as they can. I, as sensei, go around telling folks where they have departed from the form and thus where they have openings. This is the fastest way of learning, as this interrupts the accumulation of repetitions the least. That is enough at our dojo for someone to correct themselves and to return to the form as best they can. When folks are "fighting" in Kihon Waza, I might have to ask them what they are doing, as someone might ask a crazy person that is talking to invisible folks, "Who are you talking to?," as it is a complete misunderstanding, as they could have just broke out a checker board right then and there and been as close to Aikido Kihon Waza training as when "fighting." It doesn't take much to keep folks on the path, in other words, at our dojo. I feel that this has everything to do with the fact that we do not just do kihon waza training (and a little crazy thing called "randori" - geesh). Because we have live training environments where you are sure to get your "Aikido" handed back to you, in not so nice a way, if it is not up to par, everyone takes Kihon Waza training very seriously as the type of training wherein you are set to learning correct technique by embodying it over and over and over and over and over and over again. Thus, in the end, most of my senpai also have no problem outright telling a beginning, "Don't waste your reps, there's plenty to learn here in Kihon Waza training. Relax, stop fighting, there is plenty of time for that later, and if you don't train now in technique, you are not going to be ready later for fighting training."

Things never have to go beyond this.

fwiw,
dmv

[Basia Halliop]

Is there some rule in your dojo against comunicating?

How two people choose to train together depends on both of them...

I think what it all means in your case depends a lot on whether from their point of view they're happily and enthousiastically accepting your 'invitation' to train with more atemi (in which case you could always just ask them to hit a bit less hard), or whether they're pissed off and trying to tell you that you're being a s***t and they _don't_ want to train your preferred way (in which case you might try respecting their wishes).

[James Davis]

So, during all my time in the dojo I got comments such as I was speaking too much, I was not skilled enough to train with (black belt more preferred), I resisted too much, etc…
Black belt more preferred?! Duh! Of course black belts are more preferred; that's why we train white belts until they're black belts! It sounds like a bit of elitism to me. They should help you to learn regardless of your rank. I do think, however, that if you're talking too much you should make every effort to remedy that.:straightf


My question though is if it's acceptable to follow "Eye for Eye" rule in Aikido training? In this case it's more like blow for blow.
It all depends on how much "winning" matters to you.;)

Sometimes, when I see my partner is open, I can give him/her an atemi as a reminder to move to protect one-self or to keep a block. It is never a serious full strength atemi, more like a very light punch or kick or in most cases there is just pretence of it.
a very light punch or kick or in most cases there is just pretence of it Sounds to me like you're pointing out holes in his defenses in a manner that doesn't result in his injury. Nice job.

Everybody does it, everyone accepts it, but not with that guy.
Until he becomes a reasonable person and stops trying to hurt people, don't show him his openings. Let him wear the blinders and think that everything's wonderful with his aikido. It sounds to me like you're trying to be helpful and he can't take your criticism.

I don't know his reasons, but he likes to follow "eye for eye" or as I mentioned earlier blow for blow rule. Every time I train with him he returns whatever I did to him in the way that feels like punishment. Whenever I twist his wrist or punch or kick or throw him he repeats it on me, but with more power than it's necessary as if teaching me a lesson "you got what you asked for".
If you know that he likes to lash out at you, then don't touch the guy. There might be a kernel of truth to that "you got what you asked for" thing when you keep doing something, knowing what his reaction will be.

So, we were doing suwariwaza and while I was falling on my back I managed to kick his upper body side, but nothing serious of course. Well, when it was my turn to be nage I was struggling a lot as he was resisting (in the end he is a good black belt and more skillful than me). When I tried to throw him away he kicked me as I did earlier, but his kick was much more powerful so I ended up in a foot or so away from my previous place. I don't know if he aimed or not, but he kicked me exactly in the center of my chest-a few inches left or right or down and it could be pretty bad for me as a female.
If you kicked at me like that, I would have manipulated one of your toes, or perhaps your ankle. I would not have waited for my chance to lash out at you. Be you man, woman, or child, if you try to kick me, I will do my best not to allow the kick to land, and I'll try to prevent any further attempts without injury to either of us.

I finished my round and went to the locker room to wash my hands and cool myself down. And then it hit me, my so- nourished self-pity: was it necessary for him to do that to me? Do I really deserve such attitude? Should not we be above vengeance? I could not control it, so I got some tears (just a little bit).
I don't think that it was necessary for him to do that to you at all, but I don't know either of you, or where his head's at. I don't think that you deserve it, but maybe he thinks that you do. Maybe he even thinks that it's somehow doing you some good.

Is he right? Should I be completely submissive as uke? Should I just follow the rules and never challenge the opponent?
I don't know if he's right or not. His "rightness" is dependent upon the dojo in which he trains. I can say that if he returned a light tap (or just the pretense of one) with a blow that caused injury in my dojo, he would most certainly not be right.

I'm a very optimistic person and can take criticism well, so whenever I complain about my injures it's always a joke (but outsiders seriously think that my husband abuses me on a regular base).

Yulia

If everyone else trains reasonably and doesn't escalate violence instead of improving their techniques, continue training with them and leave this guy alone. If he wants to hurt you for pointing out his shortcomings, leave him the hell alone.:disgust: Train with people who want to learn.

[jonreading]

First off, I am a big fan of solid ukewaza, and I do believe in atemi. Next, I differentiate instruction between exercising, learning, and training. When I am learning aikido, I usually do not appreciate a "difficult" uke; I wish to learn in an evironment with controlled variables and a reproduceable conclusion. When I train aikido, I enjoy a smart uke who is invited to interact with me at the level at which they wish to invite me to interact with them. If I choose to employ atemi, I must prepare to receive atemi. If I choose to attempt to refute or reverse technique, I must prepare to receive kaishiwaza.

That said, I when I work with my partner:
A. Am I learning or training with my partner?
B. At what level do I wish to interact with my partner?

[Qatana]

While I would never presume to tell my sempai they are leaving openings unless they ask,and Nevr make contact with atemi when that happens, I do understand where you're coming from.
The other night we were practicing katatedori nikyo. My partner was a pretty big guy and I am under 5'3" and weigh proportionate.There is no way I can budge this guy unless my technique is perfect. So he's resisting and I find the sweet spot and he goes down , hard. We trade. I grab his wrist, he tries the technique, nothing happens. So he muscles me into a nikyo and down I go. He says I was resisting just as hard as he was. Yeah, right. Like I'd resist a steamroller!
Considering I outrank this guy by threee belts, I was well within my rights to correct his assumption, but since the reason I train is to Not be contentious, and I like all my partners, we just let it go and kept on training.
Sometimes I manage to not turn everything into an argument!

[Marie Noelle Fequiere]

Did you read Erick Calderon's blog? Apparently, somebody enjoys training with you!
It's all a matter of personality. We get along with some, and not with others. Still, I would try not to brush a sempai the wrong way. He may have his own issues that you do not know about, just the same as you may have your own issues, that he doesn't know about.
Just let go, he will one day meet someone who will be able to help him with his problems.
You just keep training and make the day of those who appreciate you.

[Edward]

You wouldn't seriously expect him to turn the other cheek? Or the other rib in this case. Don't throw stones at others if your house is built of glass, and don't show others their openings if your techniques are full of them :D Anyway, you got what you deserve.

[Robert Rumpf]

First of all I'm a difficult uke- means I resist too much and unnecessary.

If you're doing something excessive and unnecessary, shouldn't you stop it, if you're trying to train yourself instead of others?

Do I really deserve such attitude? Should not we be above vengeance?

If you give it out, you may just get it back. Should we not be above provocation?

Should I just follow the rules and never challenge the opponent?

Are you challenging an opponent, or working with a partner on a technique that is being taught? If you're challenging an opponent in a martial art that has no rules, can you expect any kindness in response? Especially when your "opponent" is trying to learn a technique by following a routine and you deviate from that routine?

I'm a very optimistic person and can take criticism well, so whenever I complain about my injures it's always a joke (but outsiders seriously think that my husband abuses me on a regular base).

You had better be careful... in the future, if you train more often, you'll be doing more joint locks, and for me, if someone gives me deliberate attitude in (say) a nikyo joint lock, and I am having a bad day, I drop them fast and hard... while distantly caring if they get hurt or not. Sure, I'm trying to grow out of that desire to lash out - but do you want to bet your wrist on your "opponent's" emotional maturity?

You may not like bruises now, but will you like broken bones later?

I've had instances in the past of students coming onto the mat (typically they have past martial arts experience of some sort) and trying as hard as they possibly can to break my technique or to screw with me since I'm a shodan. They want me to help them learn Aikido, while they disrupt my training? I have plenty to work on without their help, thanks.

This type of behavior used to really upset me, to the point of me getting violent, or at the very least avoiding the person.

One example is a partner I trained with on shomenuchi ikkyo. This was not my first run-in with this individual.

He was bound and determined to not let me do ikkyo him, to the point of tightening his arm completely (after his non-committed, choked-up strike), bringing his arm to his side, and turning his back on me. I hit him lightly several times to make the point about atemi about him being wide open and badly positioned... and he just laughed loudly at me and said something mocking in response.

I was really pissed and took him down in a headlock. I needed to step off the mat to regroup, and I never worked with that person again. I was concerned for my emotional training, as well as concerned for his health - his attitude was something that I couldn't answer, at that point, even if his technique was appalling.

It is fortunate, at times like that, that I don't know how to hit very effectively... :)

Currently, I have a more effective way of dealing with these problems.

I do whatever technique I can make work while trying hard not to hurt the person. Sure, neither of us get to practice what sensei is teaching, but did uke really care about that in the first place, if they are being so problematic? As for me, it is just another lesson in blending.. :)

If I can't make anything work on the person, than I just don't do anything. It is what they wanted after all, isn't it? That way, they learn nothing, and I get to practice patience.

Rob

[tlk52]

I like David Valdez's answer

[Aikibu]

First, let us note, "uke" is not an opponent. Uke is a training partner, a training partner in a team that is not practicing self-defense techniques, not practicing sparring, not practicing fighting. In Kihon Waza, as Uke, you are out to fulfill your role, but since your role as uke should be to attack as fully and with as much integrity as is safe (for your ukemi skill and for nage's skill at aiki), you should never think of this as being "submissive." That said, pointing out openings in Kihon Waza is totally a waste of time, as all it does is interrupt the accumulation of repetitions, which are necessary for detail to become embodied, and thus for skill to mature with time. When you allow for real-life learning allowances (e.g. your senpai not taking advantage of your openings in your attempts to "show others their openings," for fear your ukemi is not up to the challenge - not capable of keeping you safe), which already bog down the accumulation of properly executed repetitions, this waste of time is even a bigger waste of time.

If you want to show "openings" jump out of Kihon Waza training, set up and use live training environments (e.g. "Okay, you come in with anything, and you be ready for anything."). Not to be rude, but can I ask if you train in live training environments? My reason for asking is that my experience has led me to hold that folks that try and make Kihon Waza training the answer to all things martial are folks that have little to none when it comes to other forms of training. If this captures your experience, perhaps then you won't find it so crazy to be "submissive" in Kihon Waza training if you also find some avenues for more live training environments - but be aware, you are most likely going to get hurt, and hurt bad (where a kick in the torso or the breast has to be the least of your worries).

Finally, I'm feeling you should look more closely at your reaction to your senpai's reaction, looking past "He did it to me," "He's the one to blame," "Isn't he wrong - aren't I right." There's a lot of "victimentality" in there, and that always speaks of egocentricism, and egocentrism always speaks of a loss of awareness, and a loss of awareness always leads to more ignorance, and more ignorance always leads to more suffering. The mat is a microcosm of Life and behind all this current suffering in the dojo lies a loss of insight regarding what an uke is, what openings are, what kihon waza is, where the learning allowances are in your training, how to improve at nage, how to improve at uke, how and why people are reacting to your showing of openings, why you feel a need to show people their openings, why you really teared up in the bathroom, etc.

In my dojo, we get newer folks that come in sometimes wanting to expose openings. It usually last for about one or two reps, as we give them plenty of reason to better spend their time learning ukemi - which is the same reason for not wanting to waste time showing openings in Kihon Waza. In Kihon Waza, everyone just works on as much of the form as they can. I, as sensei, go around telling folks where they have departed from the form and thus where they have openings. This is the fastest way of learning, as this interrupts the accumulation of repetitions the least. That is enough at our dojo for someone to correct themselves and to return to the form as best they can. When folks are "fighting" in Kihon Waza, I might have to ask them what they are doing, as someone might ask a crazy person that is talking to invisible folks, "Who are you talking to?," as it is a complete misunderstanding, as they could have just broke out a checker board right then and there and been as close to Aikido Kihon Waza training as when "fighting." It doesn't take much to keep folks on the path, in other words, at our dojo. I feel that this has everything to do with the fact that we do not just do kihon waza training (and a little crazy thing called "randori" - geesh). Because we have live training environments where you are sure to get your "Aikido" handed back to you, in not so nice a way, if it is not up to par, everyone takes Kihon Waza training very seriously as the type of training wherein you are set to learning correct technique by embodying it over and over and over and over and over and over again. Thus, in the end, most of my senpai also have no problem outright telling a beginning, "Don't waste your reps, there's plenty to learn here in Kihon Waza training. Relax, stop fighting, there is plenty of time for that later, and if you don't train now in technique, you are not going to be ready later for fighting training."

Things never have to go beyond this.

fwiw,
dmv

Excellent Post. This could be a primer for beginner Ukemi.

William Hazen

[NagaBaba]

Is he right? Should I be completely submissive as uke? Should I just follow the rules and never challenge the opponent?
Yulia
Hello Yulia
In aikido there is some interesting spiritual notion "Restore harmony of the World' . We start to learn about it physically in the dojo first.

So you experience is very precious, it lets you learn the most important aspect of aikido. Be grateful to your black belt fellow. If aikido practice is not well balanced, in absence of very clear rules of practice, it will be not possible to practice safely. And abuse will be a norm.

So I’d say : yes, your fellow student does very good thing. Still you can ‘challenge’ any student you want, make counters etc…I do it regularly, however I’m very careful to have very clear good intent, maintain good, pleasant mood of practice, and remember old saying from Himalaya: “always do it at the level you can receive it safely”. Otherwise you will destroy you body for nothing; you will learn nothing at all.

Be courageous and wish you a lot of health.

[rodrigo1508]

To me saying "eye for an eye" implies that you first took an "eye" or in this case a you gave a blow first. So the first offence was done by you and also this would be a bad thing in Aikido acording to what I think you believe to be the rules in Aikido.
I think you can still do this kind of training if you like but you need to ask your uke if he agrees, if you dont he might take it the wrong way.
I remember not so long ago I had a sempai that did something like that (resisting and giving atemis in openings) but since I was was trying to concentrate on what i should do, the atemis totally broke my concentration and annoyed me. Now I know why he did them, I think we all go through that fase of resisting to see if it works or something like that. Where I train when I have done that to my sensei (he is a good friend and he knows i am just playing with him) he just smiles and the next time I try to do it he shows me that he was just taking it easy on me and that the opening was there because they didnt want to go overboard.

[eyrie]

An eye for an eye.. makes the whole world blind....
-- Mohandus Ghandi

[russians in town]

I would like to thank you all for your comments- I appreciate your opinion and time spent on reading my post. I may like or not like some of the replies, but you are more experienced people than me, so I respect that.
Here is just a little bit of clarification on my account:

I tried to carefully choose the words for my post, so when it's said that "sometimes I can give an atemi" it means sometimes not all the time. Even I'm not so stupid to do it on regular base.

In times when one's stuck in doing a technique because of good resistance or strength of your partner, one has nothing else left , but to punch or kick to distract or disbalance his/her uke and finish the technique. I don't want to say it's normal in my dojo, but it happens sometimes with everybody.

As for Janet Rosen's comment: from my very first day in dojo I got an idea what I should expect from the guys, and believe me I'm not so privileged to give atemi and not to get it back. We are equal in almost all ways.

My point was about the level of power in using kicks or punches. When my atemi is mostly just a pretence (no contact at all) or very light I will go "OK" with the same or even stronger one knowing the guy didn't mean to hurt me. Although, when I get something that knocks me down and I know it was done on purpose, the excessive use of power doesn't feel good.

When guys (black belts included) cannot perform the technique and get frustrated, some of them tend to become aggressive and use excessive power to bring the uke down-it's easier that way.

After my post and your replies I asked four of my dojo guys (all higher ranks than me) whom I usually train with if I really was a difficult training partner with my love to resist and give occasional atemi. They said that not at all-I just give them a little bit of challenge, but they don't mind.

Sometimes I have an opportunity to train with Sasha, my sensei, and it's very difficult to resist with him as he's just awesome. He never uses an excessive power on me (he usually says he's using only 10% of his strength) even when I do punch or kick him. Everything goes in a positive mode and mood.

Yulia

[Amir Krause]

When guys (black belts included) cannot perform the technique and get frustrated, some of them tend to become aggressive and use excessive power to bring the uke down-it's easier that way.



A black belt does not suddenly cause one to be above human, he (or she) can loose temper and misbehave just like anyone else.

Not being there, Forum members are bound to judge from your posts, hence the comments you have received.

One last pointer regarding resistance and openings: It is much easier to resist when Uke knows in advance the technique Tori is about to apply. It is even easier after a few tries, since you already know the process. Most people as Uke, perform supposedly minor changes in their movements after the 3ed to 4th round of a technique. Once those changes were made, the situation changes and suddenly you can find lots of "openings", most of those are not realistic since Tori should have changed his technique due to the changes, except he is bound to the Sensei demonstration while Uke thinks his changes do not change the Kata...

Amir

[RoyK]

I like David Valdez's answer

I liked it too! Last week, at a Q&A with Suganuma sensei, he said that it's very important to be fluid rather than resistive when being uke in kihon waza, not only for what David said, but also for the fact that the ability to connect to a technique and take it safely and fluidly, and perhaps even reverse it, you need allot of practice as well.

[eric1235711]

Hey Yulia! How it's going?

Well, forgive me for not reading all the posts.

I don't know in which belt you are but I'd like to say something.
Forgive me if my words looks too serious, I still got a lot to learn.

He likes when you counter attack? Are you helping his techinque improvement or are you disturbing him? Is he acepting what you are doing or not? What're the reasons you do that?

would you like to others do with you what you do with them?

Hugs!

[tarik]

An eye for an eye.. makes the whole world blind....
-- Mohandus Ghandi

What'd you say? Can't read that.

[russians in town]

Hey Yulia! How it's going?

Well, forgive me for not reading all the posts.

I don't know in which belt you are but I'd like to say something.
Forgive me if my words looks too serious, I still got a lot to learn.

He likes when you counter attack? Are you helping his techinque improvement or are you disturbing him? Is he acepting what you are doing or not? What're the reasons you do that?

would you like to others do with you what you do with them?

Hugs!

Hi, Eric! I'm still a white belt and believe me I have a big respect for our black belts-they are all great and awesome guys!

As for that particular guy (shodan), I do not train with him too often as he started teaching in our brunch dojo, so he and his students come to the main dojo once or twice a month. I don't know what he thinks of me or my behavior, but he never refused to train with me.

I do not mind other people doing it to me as fantom punches or kicks into your open side help to remember and improve your body posture and movement during attacks. So getting a punch or two into the same spot makes you think and turn your body to your advantage and keep you safe next time. At least that's how it works for me, although I don't know if it's good for others-my bad!

I never go difficult with lower rank training partner-I remember myself! I do sometimes attack higher ranks with full power and vigor (by popular demand!) as we were told by our sensei to practice honest and realistic attacks.

I also never go difficult with something new we are learning. Only in case we know the technique well enough to perform it without any big technical problems (although with no grace or flow :rolleyes: ) I can get difficult to add more challenge. The guys do the same thing to me-no offence at all!

Aikido is my hobby and I'm having fun in dojo despite all those hidden or open problems and it's only me whom to blame on!

Have a good one, Eric!

[jennifer paige smith]

My dear,
Set yourself aside and learn something new. Sounds to me like you've already got the fight, resist, injury,and pain formula down to a science.

As for atemi, use it in the formal context of the technique being taught and you should be alright. It is when we get big ideas to start 'showing' and 'teaching' our seniors with random shots that we can find ourselves in the hottest of waters. Take the moment where you want to show someone else something to ask yourself what principle you might add to your own practice at that moment.

In my dojo, if you were to follow the behavior you have outlined in your original post, as I understand it, you may be well asked to leave for breach of etiquette. If you are unclear about the expectations for etiquette, you must ask. Otherwise, you will 'be told'. No fun.

[Erik Calderon]

Yulia, you have started a very nice thread and many people have already posted very good comments, even though you may not like some of them.

I enjoyed reading this thread and the responses. And, training with you is tons of fun! I think you must have had some kind of KGB training or you must be some kind of secret agent. You always know where I am open and where you could easily defeat me!

Erik Sasha Calderon
http://www.shinkikan.com
Aikido ShinKiKan.

[Marie Noelle Fequiere]

My dear,
Set yourself aside and learn something new. Sounds to me like you've already got the fight, resist, injury,and pain formula down to a science.

As for atemi, use it in the formal context of the technique being taught and you should be alright. It is when we get big ideas to start 'showing' and 'teaching' our seniors with random shots that we can find ourselves in the hottest of waters. Take the moment where you want to show someone else something to ask yourself what principle you might add to your own practice at that moment.

In my dojo, if you were to follow the behavior you have outlined in your original post, as I understand it, you may be well asked to leave for breach of etiquette. If you are unclear about the expectations for etiquette, you must ask. Otherwise, you will 'be told'. No fun.

In my dojo, we have a very friendly atmosphere, that does not exclude mutual respect. Sensei often encourages a lower belt to give a LIGHT tap to a higher ranked partner when he is not happy with said higher belt's performance (we all have our good days and our bad days). This is done in a very friendly manner, and I have never seen a sempai get angry and retaliate with brutality. I myself once resisted a flawed sihonage by pivoting around sempai. Sensei was watching, and he was laughing. Sempai did not get angry. He tried again, managed to correct his mistake and sent me nicely to the mat. He never tried to brutalize me the next time he had a chance. I sincerely think that sending a partner flying just because of a light tap is a symptom of a personality problem. I did, in a previous answer advise to Yulia to try not to irritate this particular sempai. I also noticed that other sempais seem to enjoy training with her (see Erick Calderon's blog).
It is not Yulia's place to point to a sempai that something is wrong with his attitude. But this is a fact that he will have to face sooner or later.

[Erik Calderon]

Yulia, look at the picture I put as my avatar. It's me throwing you in Koshinage.....I know you love it!

[russians in town]

Yulia, look at the picture I put as my avatar. It's me throwing you in Koshinage.....I know you love it!

Oh-my, this is more embarrassing than anything else!:hypno: And please note-I love it only after more than a year of training with you!:cool:

[Marie Noelle Fequiere]

Yulia, look at the picture I put as my avatar. It's me throwing you in Koshinage.....I know you love it!

I wonder if I will ever be able to take a fall like that. Yulia, I know now why this mean sempai treats you the way he does! He's jealous!
Wouaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahhahahah!

[jennifer paige smith]

I wonder if I will ever be able to take a fall like that. Yulia, I know now why this mean sempai treats you the way he does! He's jealous!
Wouaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahhahahah!

:)

[statisticool]

If someone attacking me goes 'blind', say from an eye poke, long enough for me to get away from their aggression, I'm ok with that.

[jennifer paige smith]

In my dojo, we have a very friendly atmosphere, that does not exclude mutual respect. Sensei often encourages a lower belt to give a LIGHT tap to a higher ranked partner when he is not happy with said higher belt's performance (we all have our good days and our bad days). This is done in a very friendly manner, and I have never seen a sempai get angry and retaliate with brutality. I myself once resisted a flawed sihonage by pivoting around sempai. Sensei was watching, and he was laughing. Sempai did not get angry. He tried again, managed to correct his mistake and sent me nicely to the mat. He never tried to brutalize me the next time he had a chance. I sincerely think that sending a partner flying just because of a light tap is a symptom of a personality problem. I did, in a previous answer advise to Yulia to try not to irritate this particular sempai. I also noticed that other sempais seem to enjoy training with her (see Erick Calderon's blog).
It is not Yulia's place to point to a sempai that something is wrong with his attitude. But this is a fact that he will have to face sooner or later.

What you say with here, I agree with. The environment that you outlined is similar to mine. I am the Sensei in my dojo and my teachers have taught me to train in the manner that I am outlining. I was probably quite a bit like Yulia when I started training and it is from this position that I am speaking. In giving thoughts to Yulia I can say that 'self-correction' is the first step, and by her own words, she is too hard and resistant. Given the different cultures of learning in Aikido, it is important to evaluate whether you are participating in the 'local standard' or whether you want to. If you are getting continually injured, insulted and harmed; then there is a problem that needs to be solved. One way of dealing with that issue is to adhere to strict etiquette; where we do not attempt to correct our sempai, which we might do in friendlier, more agreeable circumstances. There is a lot to be learned from sitting back in a certain respect and allowing the situation to reveal itself without further 'goading' or challenging. Even if that lesson is to learn to identify a 'hater'. In this way it does not become 'personal' and take us off course. If your sempai is out of control, then he/she will be out of control with others as well. The quality of patience is the receptive quality of aikido, an admittedly unbalanced skill in the confessions of our friend, Yulia. If you are always performing some version of Nage Waza or 'telling' and 'controlling' you will miss the lessons that aikido and the situation are attempting to communicate to 'you'.
Like many others I've cetainly dealt with my share of hard lessons; given and taken. And I've learned from them. What I've learned is there is no one 'right' answer. Only a process, based on training and O'Sensei's philosophy, that we can dependably follow. It may not appear that that we learn in that moment answers our questions today, but it always tells us something we need to know. Maybe even there is another way to go about training and learning than the one we came into the dojo with. Maybe not. But you have to listen to know and that means slow your previous patterns down and evaluate your progress.
This process includes everyone, especially Sempai. Something will certainly bring this other person into balance, it just may not be you and it may not be today.
Until then, quit hurting your body so that you can train for many years through many lessons and remain a benefit to your training community.
Good Luck. I know you will solve this well.