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antonis paps
06-03-2007, 07:26 AM
I just have this question..
And don't mean any disrespect whatsoever...
Is the hakama obligatory from shodan and up...
Can an aikidoka take permission not to wear the hakama?
And only be with white belt..?
Not for any reason that has to do with the custom..
But as a matter of choice..em..like assuming he is hamble
and he wants to state that he is a mere student..
Maybe it's sound's stupid to you, but don't criticize me, i always had this question.:rolleyes:

Nafis Zahir
06-03-2007, 07:53 AM
I just have this question..
And don't mean any disrespect whatsoever...
Is the hakama obligatory from shodan and up...
Can an aikidoka take permission not to wear the hakama?
And only be with white belt..?
Not for any reason that has to do with the custom..
But as a matter of choice..em..like assuming he is hamble
and he wants to state that he is a mere student..
Maybe it's sound's stupid to you, but don't criticize me, i always had this question.:rolleyes:

They say O'Sensei would get angry if the aikidoka did not wear the hakama. Back then, they wore it all the time, even before reaching dan grade. If you want to remain humble, try wearing the hakama, but still wear a white belt. I know many high ranking instructors, some who are Shihan, that still wear a white belt, stating that they wish to keep a beginners mind.

ramenboy
06-03-2007, 08:02 AM
i believe in the yoshinkan, only the instructor wears the hakama, and the rest of the class, whether yudansha or not, just wear the obi.

ron or steve definitely are better versed on the subject.

but, if you want to be 'humble' by not wearing a hakama, then why wear a black belt?

Pauliina Lievonen
06-03-2007, 08:13 AM
Why not just be humble without advertising your humbleness to the whole world? ;)

As to wearing hakama being obligatory, it depends on the organisation and the instructor. I ask mine about once a year if I please please pretty please couldn't train without, because I hate the darn thing, always trip in it and it's so hot... and he takes great pleasure in saying no...:p :D

kvaak
Pauliina

antonis paps
06-03-2007, 08:44 AM
Why not just be humble without advertising your humbleness to the whole world? ;)

kvaak
Pauliina

Yes you have a point,

but the rank when obvious...

is an advertising by itself also;)

You must admit though
there is more arrogance in black belts.

Ok let the conversation continue..:D

tarik
06-03-2007, 08:55 AM
I've heard and read Saotome's story, that he was reprimanded for getting on the mat without a hakama on, but he was a deshi, and I always assumed that they are held to different standards, because I've also seen film footage of Ueshiba Sensei training on the mat with students who were not wearing hakama.

With regards to wearing or not wearing a hakama, wearing or not wearing your black belt, etc. in your own dojo, requirements are set by the dojo and/or organization with whom you train. Follow them if you wish to train with them.

Making public statements of any sort is usually not a show of humility, so if it's humility you seek, keep seeking. This is not really the way, especially amongst those who know you well.

I do understand the feeling you have and sometimes wish to put on a white belt again to remind ME that I am a beginner. However, I can remind myself without such an act and it's behaving as a beginner that is really what will show and what is important, not what belt you wear.

IMO, the only importance of what to wear comes up when one is too eager or too reluctant to change belts (or put on a hakama) when their instructor tells them to do so.

It is also polite, when in someone else's house, to always ask and follow custom, which is probably the most appropriate approach.

FWIW, I used to always wear a white belt and no hakama when visiting other dojo and systems until too many people knew me from either prior visits or online discussions and asked me to wear my normal belt and hakama.

Regards,

tarik
06-03-2007, 08:58 AM
You must admit though there is more arrogance in black belts.

Ok let the conversation continue..:D

Personally, I've never noticed. They always seemed like silent, limp pieces of cloth to me. :D

If you really want to avoid replicating someone else's arrogance, changing the way you dress is not the first step. ;)

Regards,

antonis paps
06-03-2007, 09:15 AM
Making public statements of any sort is usually not a show of humility, so if it's humility you seek, keep seeking. This is not really the way, especially amongst those who know you well.

FWIW, I used to always wear a white belt and no hakama when visiting other dojo and systems until too many people knew me from either prior visits or online discussions and asked me to wear my normal belt and hakama.

Regards,

Did that was a public statement?:D :D (just kidding)

(ok stupid aikido humor:rolleyes:)

But I very much agree on the public statement part,
amongst those you know you well.

In my dojo, we have a person that never gives exams,
and i kind of admire his decision.(And by accident...i somehow seem to always sit on his left hand side)

antonis paps
06-03-2007, 09:16 AM
Personally, I've never noticed. They always seemed like silent, limp pieces of cloth to me. :D

Regards,

lol hehe:D :D :D

antonis paps
06-03-2007, 09:21 AM
If you really want to avoid replicating someone else's arrogance, changing the way you dress is not the first step. ;)

Regards,

Yes, I guess you are right.
But I don,t think there is any step on the matter.

tarik
06-03-2007, 11:53 AM
Did that was a public statement?:D :D (just kidding)

(ok stupid aikido humor:rolleyes:)

But I very much agree on the public statement part,
amongst those you know you well.

Well, I make no claims on humility. :-) And I post for different reasons.. to share my ideas and experiences, and have them questioned, challenged, denied, and/or affirmed, and to learn from the interaction. Humility doesn't enter into it. ;)

In my dojo, we have a person that never gives exams,
and i kind of admire his decision.(And by accident...i somehow seem to always sit on his left hand side)

There was a guy like that in my old dojo. He trained for over a decade (at or near yudansha levels) before finally being forced to test and accept a black belt. Personally, I think that's as much a statement of a lack of humility as the opposite extreme.

Of course, in his case, a very high level of shyness played into the equation as well, so there are always mitigating circumstances and nothing is entirely black and white.

Regards,

raul rodrigo
06-04-2007, 01:43 AM
I think basing your index of humility on what one does or does not wear in the dojo is also a kind of vanity in reverse. There are more important things to do than fixate on clothing.

On the other hand, I can see why some people would want to dump the hakama for safety reasons rather than reasons of political correctness or as some kind of negative badge of honor.

Just three days ago, I injured my teacher inadvertently when her foot snagged on my hakama as I was throwing her. She fell on her shoulder instead of being able to complete her forward roll. fortunately she didnt break her collarbone but the shoulder was pretty banged up. During a yondan exam at the same seminar, one uke, a well respected yudansha, took off his hakama. He thought it was too risky, particularly for the four man attack.

antonis paps
06-04-2007, 02:04 AM
I think basing your index of humility on what one does or does not wear in the dojo is also a kind of vanity in reverse. There are more important things to do than fixate on clothing.


It was a hypothesis.
I just wanted to know if not wearing the hakama is allowed
in some way, or if it can be allowed.:cool:

Charlie
06-04-2007, 02:09 AM
i believe in the yoshinkan, only the instructor wears the hakama, and the rest of the class, whether yudansha or not, just wear the obi.

ron or steve definitely are better versed on the subject...

The "custom' of the Yoshinkan is that you don't wear the hakama until the rank of 3rd dan is reached. So, in the average dojo, everyone 3rd dan and above should be wearing hakama for regular workouts. However, many schools have evolved into only wearing the hakama for ceremonial/seminar purposes.

That being said...during seminars and such, usually only the featured instructor [and others that they designate] wear the hakama.

raul rodrigo
06-04-2007, 02:21 AM
It was a hypothesis.
I just wanted to know if not wearing the hakama is allowed
in some way, or if it can be allowed.:cool:

I understand that you were speaking hypothetically and I didnt mean to offend. But if a student wants to refuse to wear one because he wants to show he is "humble and just a student," then it seems to me that its a point that can be better made in other ways. IMO

PeterR
06-04-2007, 02:37 AM
The "custom' of the Yoshinkan is that you don't wear the hakama until the rank of 3rd dan is reached. So, in the average dojo, everyone 3rd dan and above should be wearing hakama for regular workouts. However, many schools have evolved into only wearing the hakama for ceremonial/seminar purposes.

That being said...during seminars and such, usually only the featured instructor [and others that they designate] wear the hakama.

In Shodokan it is rare to see anyone in a hakama. I have never seen the Chief Instructor of Shodokan wear one. University groups during enbu competitions sometimes wear hakama - that's about it.

But that really isn't the question is it?

If a student insisted to wear hakama in the dojo they would get a few sideways glances if not being told to get with the program. I think the main reason is safety.

If a yudansha decided to wear a white belt I think the same situation would arise. The heirarchy is used as a training mechanism as much as anything else - a quick visual cue for whoever is running the class and also for participants.

Frankly, those that step outside of the program because they want to demonstrate humility are doing the exact opposite. Aikido practice has no place for religious-like pennance nor for demonstrations of "more humbleness than thou".

Aristeia
06-04-2007, 02:53 AM
yep. I've always thought that those that go out of the way to show "rank is unimportant" end up demonstrating the exact opposite.

stelios
06-04-2007, 03:31 AM
I have met different thesis on the particular subject. Some schools demand you wear a hakama from lesson 1, some not untill shodan, some only after 3 Dan etc. I have also read in Japanese literature that it is a matter of respect/etiquete esp for visiting students from other dojos to ask the teacher if they can wear the hakama during the lesson. Some dojos expect visiting students to rid off their hakama during the lesson while some other schools never mind at all. In our dojo we have had visiting students, all below dan level, that wore their hakama during the lesson (we wear the hakama only after shodan is reached) but never asked our teacher for permission. He never said anything because he does not care what the outfit says. Through the lesson the potential of everyone usually becomes apparent, something the clothing itself will never give away.
And, personally, I have never seen an arrogant black belt yet. I have come across arrogance in all kyu levels, also in 6th kyu, but never in dan levels. They tend to be silently effective shadows :)

Dennis Hooker
06-04-2007, 06:47 AM
Unless you want to see me in my underwear (not a good idea) you better hope I got one on. Aikido students are the only folks I know that have gi paints under it and some of us don't. And there is no law that says only balck belts can wear them

antonis paps
06-04-2007, 07:18 AM
On the other hand, I can see why some people would want to dump the hakama for safety reasons rather than reasons of political correctness or as some kind of negative badge of honor.

Just three days ago, I injured my teacher inadvertently when her foot snagged on my hakama as I was throwing her. She fell on her shoulder instead of being able to complete her forward roll. fortunately she didnt break her collarbone but the shoulder was pretty banged up. During a yondan exam at the same seminar, one uke, a well respected yudansha, took off his hakama. He thought it was too risky, particularly for the four man attack.

The hakama as a cause of accidents?
That i didn't know.

raul rodrigo
06-04-2007, 07:26 AM
The hakama as a cause of accidents?
That i didn't know.

Oh yes. In my second session wearing a hakama, I tripped over the front hem and nearly planted my face on the mat. So much for any hope of looking cool and skilled. Am less clumsy now, but my ukemi and way of moving my feet had to change a great deal. Another teacher tore up his leg when being thrown via kote gaeshi and his leg snagged tori's hakama. The inside of his thigh took a beating on that one. So this kind of anti hakama reasoning makes sense to me; but the other kind? Not so much.

R

Nafis Zahir
06-04-2007, 08:33 AM
Oh yes. In my second session wearing a hakama, I tripped over the front hem and nearly planted my face on the mat. So much for any hope of looking cool and skilled. Am less clumsy now, but my ukemi and way of moving my feet had to change a great deal. Another teacher tore up his leg when being thrown via kote gaeshi and his leg snagged tori's hakama. The inside of his thigh took a beating on that one. So this kind of anti hakama reasoning makes sense to me; but the other kind? Not so much.

R

This is the reason some people wear an hakama that is above their ankles.

Edward
06-04-2007, 01:05 PM
I personally believe the hakama to be responsible for a lot of the manierism and the dance like movements we see in aikido. Take off the hakama and I'm sure a great deal of the martial spirit comes back ;)

Luc X Saroufim
06-04-2007, 04:39 PM
i consider Hakamas a safety hazard. they can get stepped on, which could injure a nage, and worse things can happen to an uke who gets caught up in one.

stelios
06-05-2007, 12:33 AM
As an ignorant clumsy beginner in Aikido I sometimes step on my teacher's hakama while performing uke and somehow mess the whole technique. It happens less frequently lately but at the very beginning I was a walking hazard for my master.

Taliesin
06-05-2007, 03:37 AM
Halama's are a nightmare to wear - so i can understand someone not wanting to wear one because of additonal risks, or just because they are such a pain in the backside.

But as far as humility is concerened - nothing is more guaranteed to keep you humble on the mat than wearing the b*****y thing!!!

gerry cochrane
06-05-2007, 04:29 AM
I personally believe the hakama to be responsible for a lot of the manierism and the dance like movements we see in aikido. Take off the hakama and I'm sure a great deal of the martial spirit comes back ;)

I really do agree with this statement. Although I have done the old "Hakama Two-Step" many times, and no doubt many more times to come, wearing it has been instrumental to my moving more fluidly and lighter, thus wearing it has been an oppertunity for learning in itself.

IMO aikido is a graceful art, almost balletic in it's execution, and undoubtedly the Hakama makes an important contribution to this effect

Gerry Cochrane

Pauliina Lievonen
06-05-2007, 05:13 AM
But as far as humility is concerened - nothing is more guaranteed to keep you humble on the mat than wearing the b*****y thing!!!Good point! :D

kvaak
Pauliina
For me, summer has officially started - shorts under my hakama last night...:cool:

antonis paps
06-05-2007, 06:22 AM
Good point! :D

kvaak
Pauliina
For me, summer has officially started - shorts under my hakama last night...:cool:

Ok you 've made your point,wear the bloody thing!!
Its clear for all of us,
No reason repeating ourselves ei?

For the humble thing:

mm..usually it looks much more simple..but anw:D

Well:
Hypothesis lesson 1:D

Generally we have:

A + X = C

In order to get as an answer C we need an A and an X

Where X = any possible situation leading to a C
Where A = current situation
Where C = answer- in this case hakama or no hakama beeing
an acceptable answer

In this case we have, A + B = C

B is an X
That is, we assume B , and B is a hypothesis
In this case maybe wrong we assumed B = humbleness thing

And the answer C if i am correct depends to: dojo,sensei,reason,organization,and e.t.c
Where e.t.c is I do not know.

Thank you for listening,:D :D
For any difficulties please contact me.xexe:D :D

To continue:

On the other hand, I think the thread is leaning towards the safety part of wearing the hakama.
Feel free to comment if you like:)

Thanks,
Antonis Papas.

Dirk Hanss
06-05-2007, 06:30 AM
i consider Hakamas a safety hazard. they can get stepped on, which could injure a nage, and worse things can happen to an uke who gets caught up in one.
That is one reason, why we ask beginners (latest after 6th kyu test) to wear hakama. They get messed up, but as they do everything slowly, they do not face harm. When they start to act dynamicly , fast and probably hard, they are already used to wearing a long skirt ;) Another reason is: when you are able to do the technique good and safely with a hakama, you can do it even in bad terrain. There is no need to ask: "Can we first make the surface plain and cover it it with mats?".
The disadvantage is that some of us tell the aggressor: let me first change dress - I never learnt doing the techniques without hakama." :freaky:

Cheers Dirk

grondahl
06-05-2007, 06:36 AM
Another reason is: when you are able to do the technique good and safely with a hakama, you can do it even in bad terrain.

This was completly intended as a joke, right?

Pauliina Lievonen
06-05-2007, 07:09 AM
Ok you 've made your point,wear the bloody thing!!
Its clear for all of us,
No reason repeating ourselves ei?
Antonis, sorry I didn't mean to be rubbing it in, David's post just made me laugh.

kvaak
Pauliina

tarik
06-05-2007, 08:23 AM
Halama's are a nightmare to wear - so i can understand someone not wanting to wear one because of additonal risks, or just because they are such a pain in the backside.

If it's a pain in the backside you're tying it too tight (and wearing it too low). :straightf

Regards,

aek
06-06-2007, 02:46 AM
It would be helpful if my instructor did not wear his hakama. I would have a better view of his footwork.