PDA

View Full Version : Best randori


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


antonis paps
06-03-2007, 07:11 AM
Best Randori you ever saw

Video or not..

George S. Ledyard
06-03-2007, 07:49 AM
Best Randori you ever saw

Video or not..
One of the best I ever saw was from a student on her Nidan test. I have no idea what happened, I truly think the kami came down and possessed her. It was three people with shinai attacking and no one touched her (and not for want of trying). She even acheived the Holy Grail of a weapons randori which was to get one the ukes to totally nail one of the other ukes... It was the finest Aikido she ever did before or since. I thought I was looking at a changeling.

Anyway, at my dojo we have put a lot, and I do mean a lot, of time into randori work. I have a video manual out on the subject which was the product of over fifteen years of randori intensives. So i sort of have a "developed palate" when it comes to this subject. There is a fabulous Randori by Shioda Sensei in the documentary Budo:The Art of Killing. There are some films of the old All Japan Aikido exhibitions in which Saotome Sensei did some amazing stuff; he was pretty famous for this in his day.

But the best stuff I have seen in person would have to be the two randori that Matsuoka Sensei did at the Expos. You can see these on the DVD's available sold on the Aikido Journal site. They were works of art and far superior to any of the randori done by the folks of much higher Dan rank. Full speed completely unrehearsed, every movement decision, the perfect one.

The other best one I have seen was also at the Expo. Kayla Feder Sensei did a fabulous randori in her demo. Also spontaneous an unrehearsed. It was a gem.

Since we have spent so much time on randori, my students were really appreciative of these two teachers. I'm not sure that a lot of the folks watching appreciated how really wonderful they were. But to those who have spent a lot of time studying the principles involved, it was obvious that these two teachers were in total command of those same principles.

Aikibu
06-03-2007, 03:35 PM
One of the best I ever saw was from a student on her Nidan test. I have no idea what happened, I truly think the kami came down and possessed her. It was three people with shinai attacking and no one touched her (and not for want of trying). She even acheived the Holy Grail of a weapons randori which was to get one the ukes to totally nail one of the other ukes... It was the finest Aikido she ever did before or since. I thought I was looking at a changeling.

Anyway, at my dojo we have put a lot, and I do mean a lot, of time into randori work. I have a video manual out on the subject which was the product of over fifteen years of randori intensives. So i sort of have a "developed palate" when it comes to this subject. There is a fabulous Randori by Shioda Sensei in the documentary Budo:The Art of Killing. There are some films of the old All Japan Aikido exhibitions in which Saotome Sensei did some amazing stuff; he was pretty famous for this in his day.

But the best stuff I have seen in person would have to be the two randori that Matsuoka Sensei did at the Expos. You can see these on the DVD's available sold on the Aikido Journal site. They were works of art and far superior to any of the randori done by the folks of much higher Dan rank. Full speed completely unrehearsed, every movement decision, the perfect one.

The other best one I have seen was also at the Expo. Kayla Feder Sensei did a fabulous randori in her demo. Also spontaneous an unrehearsed. It was a gem.

Since we have spent so much time on randori, my students were really appreciative of these two teachers. I'm not sure that a lot of the folks watching appreciated how really wonderful they were. But to those who have spent a lot of time studying the principles involved, it was obvious that these two teachers were in total command of those same principles.

Matsuoka's was excellent and I would like to add Pat Hendricks to that list. I have seen her Randori a few times and you can feel her focus,commitment, and power. If you know any woman who have doubts about Aikido's effectiveness against much larger men Sensei Hendrick's Randori answers that question with a powerful yes! LOL

William Hazen

George S. Ledyard
06-03-2007, 06:31 PM
Matsuoka's was excellent and I would like to add Pat Hendricks to that list. I have seen her Randori a few times and you can feel her focus,commitment, and power. If you know any woman who have doubts about Aikido's effectiveness against much larger men Sensei Hendrick's Randori answers that question with a powerful yes! LOL

William Hazen
Whereas Pat's Expo randori was impressive, it was also highly rehearsed. There were one or two spots in which you could see that Pat moved just a tad ahead of the uke knowing what was coming. That's the only reason I did not include it. I liked it very much...

There was some discussion at the time on the forums about the differences of approach between the folks who got out there and were completely spontaneous and those who showed something in which the form had been rehearsed in advance. I don't have any problem with rehearsing so that you can show something in particular. My own demo was largely kata and I had practiced with my partners quite a bit before the demo itself. But I give the highest marks to folks who just got out there and let it happen.

ChrisHein
06-04-2007, 12:26 AM
The next step up would be with non-compliant ukes.

George S. Ledyard
06-04-2007, 01:24 AM
The next step up would be with non-compliant ukes.

Why? What's the point? Randori isn't a street fight... You want to do that, the first person I touch doesn't get up. You want non-compliant ukes, you get the non-user friendly nage.That isn't a step up, it's several steps down.

raul rodrigo
06-04-2007, 02:29 AM
Why would you want to be noncompliant in an aikido randori? Sounds like a prescription for injury.

PeterR
06-04-2007, 03:35 AM
Why? What's the point? Randori isn't a street fight... You want to do that, the first person I touch doesn't get up. You want non-compliant ukes, you get the non-user friendly nage.That isn't a step up, it's several steps down.

Why would you want to be noncompliant in an aikido randori? Sounds like a prescription for injury.

It certainly is possible to have non-compliant randori without it degrading into a slug-fest and a mass of injuries. What it does require is a higher level of skill and control on the part of all participants not to mention a very developed agreement with respect to the degree of non-compliance.

I do think that Shodokan style randori against multiple opponents would be very difficult to achieve not because of the non-compliance but because the role of uke and tori are not defined.

gdandscompserv
06-04-2007, 05:23 AM
I do think that Shodokan style randori against multiple opponents would be very difficult to achieve not because of the non-compliance but because the role of uke and tori are not defined.
That's an interesting and thought provoking point.

George S. Ledyard
06-04-2007, 07:44 AM
It certainly is possible to have non-compliant randori without it degrading into a slug-fest and a mass of injuries. What it does require is a higher level of skill and control on the part of all participants not to mention a very developed agreement with respect to the degree of non-compliance.

I do think that Shodokan style randori against multiple opponents would be very difficult to achieve not because of the non-compliance but because the role of uke and tori are not defined.

Hi Peter,
It all depends on what everyone means by "non-compliant". I do not consider what we do to be "non-compliant" but if you screw up, the three ukes will grab you and take you down to the floor and sit on you. If you miss an entry, they will hit you. The way I was taught randori, it is very difficult to do.

But if we are talking about ukes who want to counter every technique, who will hang in there like a judo competitor trying to avoid taking a fall, then that is not what we do at all. If that is what is meant by "non-compliant", then the atemi are coming out, and not in the uke friendly manner that we normally do.

Randori is still a form of practice. It may be full speed, full power. It may be extremely intense. It may even result in the nage being unsuccessful. But it is still training. The ukes need to respect what I am choosing not to do.

I teach defensive tactics and civilian self defense. We do some multiple attacker work. Basically, the first guy I touch gets it in the throat or the eyes and then I knock him down with a couple of elbow strikes, the second guy I smash in to the third attacker. If possible I will bash his head into the third fellow's face. I take out the eyes and then knee the groin. As he goes down, I am in the face of the third guy before the second hits the ground. I will strike him fast and hard, then dump him if he's still standing and then move back to the first guy and stomp him to make sure that he doesn't get up. This process repeats until all of them are down and broken. That's how I do a randori against real "non-compliant" ukes. iIt takes all of ten seconds or so and there is nothing artful about it. i do not consider it to be somehow "higher" than what we do in or Aikido randori, just the opposite.

antonis paps
06-04-2007, 07:50 AM
Hi Peter,
It all depends on what everyone means by "non-compliant". I do not consider what we do to be "non-compliant" but if you screw up, the three ukes will grab you and take you down to the floor and sit on you. If you miss an entry, they will hit you. The way I was taught randori, it is very difficult to do.

But if we are talking about ukes who want to counter every technique, who will hang in there like a judo competitor trying to avoid taking a fall, then that is not what we do at all. If that is what is meant by "non-compliant", then the atemi are coming out, and not in the uke friendly manner that we normally do.

Randori is still a form of practice. It may be full speed, full power. It may be extremely intense. It may even result in the nage being unsuccessful. But it is still training. The ukes need to respect what I am choosing not to do.

I teach defensive tactics and civilian self defense. We do some multiple attacker work. Basically, the first guy I touch gets it in the throat or the eyes and then I knock him down with a couple of elbow strikes, the second guy I smash in to the third attacker. If possible I will bash his head into the third fellow's face. I take out the eyes and then knee the groin. As he goes down, I am in the face of the third guy before the second hits the ground. I will strike him fast and hard, then dump him if he's still standing and then move back to the first guy and stomp him to make sure that he doesn't get up. This process repeats until all of them are down and broken. That's how I do a randori against real "non-compliant" ukes. iIt takes all of ten seconds or so and there is nothing artful about it. i do not consider it to be somehow "higher" than what we do in or Aikido randori, just the opposite.

mm..could there be rules concerning the "non-compliant" part?

Chuck Clark
06-04-2007, 08:27 AM
This discussion is another example of why it is extremely important to define certain terms being used. If everyone was together on the mat, it would be understood immediately, but on the internet it is very difficult. "Non-compliant" .... in my dojo we are very compliant. We agree to a yakusoku (agreement) that we will do our best and take care of each other. We also agree that the goal of the uke role is to attack and cause a problem in the tori's physical and mental posture and if the tori's action makes the uke's attack fail and their balance is taken it's the uke's job to try and get their structural integrity back and continue to remain dangerous. It's tori's job to try and keep this from happening by making a technique that fits the situation. In kata, this is pre-arranged and uke knows they're going to "lose"... their job is very difficult because they have to make it as real as possible within the levels of speed, force, and rhythm that is desired in the specific training. In randori, it is more difficult because the tori and uke roles change after the first attack until a technique happens that can't be countered. The goal is to give each other problems to learn to solve while on the move. This goes from very slow with strong intent all the way to full speed full force at higher levels of skill at times. Most of us prefer slow to medium speed because we learn more that way.

Randori means "to take" (some form out of) "chaos" or something similar in meaning. Our style of randori demands that the problems become more novel as you go along and answering techniques seem to "invent themselves" often. Ego, fear of losing, desire to win, etc., etc. arise... but the intent is to make good waza while both partners are learning more and not really caring who makes the technique that can't be countered. There is no hanging on to keep from being thrown because you must be "active" at all times or the kuzushi will be easier to affect on stiff, or ridgidly strong structure. Atemi is always part of kuzushi... strong or soft touches or just arriving first in the space the other person needs to maintain their balance, etc.

Of course this sort of live, intent action is very difficult to describe by writing on the internet without seeing and feeling what's going on. Like the Taoist and Zen people say, the Tao/Zen that can be talked about is not real. And then humans continue to write and talk about it for hundreds and hundreds of years. Given often the good words about this sort of thing are often more about what it isn't instead of what it is. To get close to the real thing often requires more poetry and art ... The best way is real action and experience of what is and what is not... and then, still, each person will have a different view of what is...

An old saying is appropriate here I think. "Different strokes for different folks." In reality, some strokes are better than others... Our relationships and interactions based on mutual respect and truthful actualization of our intent will, over time, determine what is good and not so good.

This is one view and not intended to try and "win a debate", etc. It is offered as another view of what's possible.

Gambatte

George S. Ledyard
06-04-2007, 08:33 AM
This discussion is another example of why it is extremely important to define certain terms being used. If everyone was together on the mat, it would be understood immediately, but on the internet it is very difficult. "Non-compliant" .... in my dojo we are very compliant. We agree to a yakusoku (agreement) that we will do our best and take care of each other. We also agree that the goal of the uke role is to attack and cause a problem in the tori's physical and mental posture and if the tori's action makes the uke's attack fail and their balance is taken it's the uke's job to try and get their structural integrity back and continue to remain dangerous. It's tori's job to try and keep this from happening by making a technique that fits the situation. In kata, this is pre-arranged and uke knows they're going to "lose"... their job is very difficult because they have to make it as real as possible within the levels of speed, force, and rhythm that is desired in the specific training. In randori, it is more difficult because the tori and uke roles change after the first attack until a technique happens that can't be countered. The goal is to give each other problems to learn to solve while on the move. This goes from very slow with strong intent all the way to full speed full force at higher levels of skill at times. Most of us prefer slow to medium speed because we learn more that way.

Randori means "to take" (some form out of) "chaos" or something similar in meaning. Our style of randori demands that the problems become more novel as you go along and answering techniques seem to "invent themselves" often. Ego, fear of losing, desire to win, etc., etc. arise... but the intent is to make good waza while both partners are learning more and not really caring who makes the technique that can't be countered. There is no hanging on to keep from being thrown because you must be "active" at all times or the kuzushi will be easier to affect on stiff, or ridgidly strong structure. Atemi is always part of kuzushi... strong or soft touches or just arriving first in the space the other person needs to maintain their balance, etc.

Of course this sort of live, intent action is very difficult to describe by writing on the internet without seeing and feeling what's going on. Like the Taoist and Zen people say, the Tao/Zen that can be talked about is not real. And then humans continue to write and talk about it for hundreds and hundreds of years. Given often the good words about this sort of thing are often more about what it isn't instead of what it is. To get close to the real thing often requires more poetry and art ... The best way is real action and experience of what is and what is not... and then, still, each person will have a different view of what is...

An old saying is appropriate here I think. "Different strokes for different folks." In reality, some strokes are better than others... Our relationships and interactions based on mutual respect and truthful actualization of our intent will, over time, determine what is good and not so good.

This is one view and not intended to try and "win a debate", etc. It is offered as another view of what's possible.

Gambatte

Very nice description, Chuck. This would be how we would go about randori practice.

Aikibu
06-04-2007, 08:58 AM
Very nice description, Chuck. This would be how we would go about randori practice.

Amen Excellent Post by Mr. Clark...."Non-Compliant" Randori would include to much "Compliance Atemi" to make it good training. :)

William Hazen

Chuck Clark
06-04-2007, 09:26 AM
The paradox is... in our "compliance" with our randori, we are always "testing" each other appropriately... and without any intent to start another dust up over this... we are very competitive with each other (helping each other get to a place we couldn't get to on our own). Always challenging, testing, pushing each other's buttons appropriately... while always taking care of each other. It isn't a fight, it isn't "play fighting" or "training for combat", it isn't a zero sum experience... it is a cooperative, managed form of testing each other in very "juicy" ways. What's hard to understand is that the folks that get pretty good at this sort of "testing" each other are all people that I would take in the bush with me and trust their hearts completely with my back.

We have never had serious injuries in this sort of training and many, many people have formed very strong bonds and friendships with their training partners. We learn a lot about each other in this process. It is a powerful form of de-sensitizing and then re-sensitizing ourselves learning how to solve emotional/physical confrontation while remaining in good problem solving mind capable of doing as little harm as possible in those solutions. Some of those strong relationships are now over 30 to 40 years old and have become functional family.

Gambatte

ChrisHein
06-04-2007, 11:47 AM
I'm not posting this as an example of great randori. I'm only posting this as an example of noncompliant randori.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGJCl6IS_xQ

I would not define noncompliant as a full out war. To me noncompliance doesn't mean bashing in each others heads and causing damage to one another. Remember Ghandi was noncompliant, and a more gentle soft man you couldn't ask for.

To me (and our school) noncompliance simply means not giving in to what nage is doing. It doesn't mean you have to sock him in the face, it only means you don't fall down for everything he does.

Talking about how "atemi must come out" is a sign of low level Aikido in my opinion. If you can't understand how to use Aikido with out punching someone in the face, you haven't gotten very far. Now this doesn't mean that I don't endorse atemi in an actual confrontation, I'm just saying that you don't' have to use it.

Why? What's the point? Randori isn't a street fight... You want to do that, the first person I touch doesn't get up. You want noncompliant uke's, you get the non-user friendly nage.That isn't a step up, it's several steps down.

George, this quote is a little out of control. Do you mean to tell me that you really believe that the first person you touch isn't going to get up?

First of don't you think that's pretty horrible Aikido? Secondly, I have been in quite a few fights myself, and It's foolish to think that (with out a weapon) the first person you touch is not going to get up. Maybe you'll get lucky and knock him out, but it's very likely you won't. This shows a lack of understanding when it comes to actual fight situations.

I use noncompliant uke's all the time, and I never have to punch them till they don't' get up. We have a fine time doing what we do, and it's pretty noncompliant.

George S. Ledyard
06-04-2007, 12:29 PM
George, this quote is a little out of control. Do you mean to tell me that you really believe that the first person you touch isn't going to get up?

First of don't you think that's pretty horrible Aikido?

What I am talking about is not Aikido. I do not think that truly non-compliant ukes are doing Aikido. Truly non-compliant ukes aren't ukes at all, they are opponents.

What we are talking about are two different things. Obviously, from your video post, what I believe is non-compliant ukemi is different than what you meant. What you seem to mean is that the ukes attack with some intention and do their jobs properly while protecting themselves in the process. That's what we do. I have no problem with that. If I don't throw them properly, they don't fall for me, if I blow an entry, they will hit me. They come in fast and hard. That's just normal randori. But they need to take proper ukemi when it's called for or they will get hurt. It takes quite a bit of training to be a good randori uke.

I have seen an uke stand there with nage's hand in his face and not move, not react, just as if it weren't there. That's just stupid.

Folks often seem to want Aikido to be a grappling art. Take out the atemi and see if you can handle several guys who want to grab you and act like cinder blocks. That's not what I teach in randori. I am not interested in doing that. It has little to do with real encounters except in that in a real encounter, after they take you down they finish you. You can't afford to go down, especially with multiple attackers. So I prefer to keep the atemi in and train the ukes to know when they can't be in the space I own.

We do a lot of randori at my dojo. We very seldom have anyone get hurt. I am very happy with the balance struck. My misunderstanding of what you meant was caused by the comment you made about the Expo Randoris of Matsuoka and Feder Senseis. As far as I am concerned, the ukemi they got from their students was top notch. Anything more resistant than that would get you hurt the way we train.

ChrisHein
06-04-2007, 01:05 PM
About the Feder and Matsuoka randori. I'm not sure if I have seen the Randori you are talking about. But I have met and trained with, and seen Feder sensei many times. I have never known her to work with anything but compliant ukes.

I'm sure the uke's in those randori took top notch ukemi. I've seen many of Matsuokas students and they take great ukemi. As well as Kayla's. They train great ukes, but they are compliant uke's.

I have taken Ukemi for Fedor sensei a few times, and it was compliant ukemi, as did everyone else at the seminars I have attended, and randori I've seen.

What Judoka do in randori is noncompliant, it also never involves punching someone in the face. What 99% of Aikidoka (save tomiki/shodokan)do is compliant.

raul rodrigo
06-04-2007, 06:27 PM
I

Talking about how "atemi must come out" is a sign of low level Aikido in my opinion. If you can't understand how to use Aikido with out punching someone in the face, you haven't gotten very far. Now this doesn't mean that I don't endorse atemi in an actual confrontation, I'm just saying that you don't' have to use it..

Really? The best randori I've seen is by Gozo Shioda and he had no qualms about hitting uke in the face with a heel palm strike. I've seen (on film) Mitsugi Saotome level his ukes with punches. You're telling me these two direct students of O sensei haven't gotten very far? Kanshu Sunadomari also used atemi in randori.

Just this Saturday an instructor from Aikikai Hombu was teaching us how to counter a shomen strike with a heel palm strike to the face. Its a pity, then, that he hasnt gotten very far.

R

gdandscompserv
06-04-2007, 06:50 PM
The impression I am getting from some shihan's I have spoken with, is that they want to bring some good, direct atemi back into the aikido curriculum. There is a feeling that American aikido has lost it's martial roots, good solid atemi being part of what has been lost. Aikido as I learned it from Iwao Yamaguchi sensei certainly included alot of solid atemi which doesn't seem as prevalent in American aikido dojo's. He had a menacing palm strike that came from down low and was very difficult to see coming until it was too late. For me, atemi brings a sense of realism to my training and especially to my randori.

ChrisHein
06-04-2007, 06:52 PM
I teach Atemi regularly at my school as well. I think atemi is a good idea. I'm just saying that I don't HAVE to use it on noncompliant ukes.

Every time noncompliance comes up I hear the same ol' thing "well then I'd have to use atemi". I don't see Tomiki people using atemi in their randori, they are pretty noncompliant.

The problem with most Aikidoka who teach atemi is that they have never hit anything, or more precisely anyone.

People can take more punishment then you might think when they are amped up, and one punch seldom sends someone flying to the ground; as most compliant aikido randori would suggest.

Michael Varin
06-04-2007, 07:16 PM
I teach defensive tactics and civilian self defense. We do some multiple attacker work. Basically, the first guy I touch gets it in the throat or the eyes and then I knock him down with a couple of elbow strikes, the second guy I smash in to the third attacker. If possible I will bash his head into the third fellow's face. I take out the eyes and then knee the groin. As he goes down, I am in the face of the third guy before the second hits the ground. I will strike him fast and hard, then dump him if he's still standing and then move back to the first guy and stomp him to make sure that he doesn't get up. This process repeats until all of them are down and broken. That's how I do a randori against real "non-compliant" ukes. iIt takes all of ten seconds or so and there is nothing artful about it. i do not consider it to be somehow "higher" than what we do in or Aikido randori, just the opposite.

Really? The best randori I've seen is by Gozo Shioda and he had no qualms about hitting uke in the face with a heel palm strike. I've seen (on film) Mitsugi Saotome level his ukes with punches. You're telling me these two direct students of O sensei haven't gotten very far? Kanshu Sunadomari also used atemi in randori.

Just this Saturday an instructor from Aikikai Hombu was teaching us how to counter a shomen strike with a heel palm strike to the face. Its a pity, then, that he hasnt gotten very far.

The impression I am getting from some shihan's I have spoken with, is that they want to bring some good, direct atemi back into the aikido curriculum. There is a feeling that American aikido has lost it's martial roots, good solid atemi being part of what has been lost. Aikido as I learned it from Iwao Yamaguchi sensei certainly included alot of solid atemi which doesn't seem as prevalent in American aikido dojo's. For me, atemi brings a sense of realism to my training and especially to my randori.

I have no problem with atemi and believe it is part of aikido, but don't forget when utilizing atemi for "realism's" sake, ukes should also be able to atemi, apply any technique that nage can apply, counteract techniques, and use escapes. Things change a little once you use those rules. 3 on 1 gets scary.

gdandscompserv
06-04-2007, 07:22 PM
I have no problem with atemi and believe it is part of aikido, but don't forget when utilizing atemi for "realism's" sake, ukes should also be able to atemi, apply any technique that nage can apply, counteract techniques, and use escapes. Things change a little once you use those rules. 3 on 1 gets scary.
Yes, these things are best not to be forgotten.:D

Aikibu
06-04-2007, 10:13 PM
Geeez...Mention the word Atemi on noncompliant Uke's and all some can think about is punching someone in the face???

Here's a quote from the founder of our Aikido

" All Aikido Techniques are done with the rythem and flow of Atemi." Shoji Nishio Shihan

Also when I am a "Non-Complaint Uke" during full speed Randori what do you think I try to do" ??? Grab someone just a little harder??? LOL Nope...Like most Martial Artists I look for an opening and STRIKE...

I don't have to hurt someone but to me (at least what I have been taught) I do Nage a huge dis-service if I do not attempt to give them a "realistic" attack during Randori...and since I have a Judo background closing on Nage and sweeping or attempting a hip throw is "realistic" as well No Atemi and Nage is on his back. :)

Most of Our Atemi is not "to the face" by the way.

Ledyard Sensei mentioned Shioda Shihan's Randori in the documentry "Budo, The Art of Killing" Shioda Shihan uses his entire body as Atemi during the demo. I highy suggest folks to a look at that clip since Shioda Shihan expertly demonstrates Randori and Atemi with non-compliant Ukes. :)

WIlliam Hazen

Aikibu
06-04-2007, 10:29 PM
by the way as an FYI Matsuoka Sensei's Dojo is very close to ours and I have seen him on more than one occasion.

His Atemi is very very good. :)

William Hazen

antonis paps
06-04-2007, 11:19 PM
Really? The best randori I've seen is by Gozo Shioda and he had no qualms about hitting uke in the face with a heel palm strike. I've seen (on film) Mitsugi Saotome level his ukes with punches. You're telling me these two direct students of O sensei haven't gotten very far? Kanshu Sunadomari also used atemi in randori.

Just this Saturday an instructor from Aikikai Hombu was teaching us how to counter a shomen strike with a heel palm strike to the face. Its a pity, then, that he hasnt gotten very far.

R

Well first I don't think anyone should be considered a "luminary of aikido" I don't like this; "oh he was o-senseis student...oh he is god" stuff.

(Irrelevant.. and given I've heard rumors that saotome has killed a man,..now it's not very hard for me to believe..and if true and covered up..well he failed actually)

To continue:
Atemi can be used in randori, but I dont think it's the purpose.
I believe it should be the last choice, given the circumstances.
Thats not the aikido choice.
To me using atemi shows a weakness,
the incapability of doing something else at the momment.

Otherwise; oh let's do randori..oh lets atemi everyone guys.:p

raul rodrigo
06-04-2007, 11:25 PM
I too came to aikido from a judo background, so I know something about noncompliance in a randori setting. And I am all for realistic, committed attacks, not uke flopping over at tori's slightest gesture. But the point remains; if the ukes up the stakes in a three man attack by not going down when tori has already clearly indicated that he has the throw or the strike in place, then tori has to up the ante as well. And at that point, someone is going to come to grief. I was at a judo tournament once where a competitor resisted osoto gari even though his opponent clearly had him cold. The noncompliance resulted in him breaking his arm. It looked like he had two elbows. a rokudan had to set the bone.

So fine, lets take randori to the edge, let's do our best to keep it honest and alive, not some choreographed flopping around. But at some point, uke has to know when to give it up and go down.

Gerardo Torres
06-05-2007, 11:10 AM
The best aikido randori I have ever seen:
The one included as a special feature in Volume 2 Issue 2 of the Ikazuchi Dojo: Virtual Training DVD series. In this video Matsuoka Sensei performs a 3-uke randori in a demonstration given at an L.A. dojo opening in 1994. The mat area was very small and spectators were standing or sitting all around the edge of the mat (as a result Matsuoka Sensei had to keep the uke from crashing into spectators; the fact that he kept throwing the uke into a safe place speaks volumes of his ability). Matsuoka Sensei was able to move in this tiny space with incredible precision, speed and flow, always into the right places and at the right time. His entries (irimi) and timing were impeccable. For me, this video represents an ideal goal of aikido randori training. Note: the uke in this video were very good as well; they were committed, had good falling skills and reacted properly to atemi and throws. I personally find the ukemi during randori as challenging as the nage role.