PDA

View Full Version : Never use this technique!!


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


charyuop
06-01-2007, 08:33 AM
Hi people. This is just a question to satisfy my curiosity, but that in the end can help you be realistic on your skills.

I don't want to enter the discassion of real fight already talked about milions of times, but the question is:

If you had to face a real fight, which one is the technique (if there is one) that you would never use? The reasons might be many, like you don't find it realible, too risky coz if you don't get it right will let your guard way too open to a counter, you think with your actual skill chances to pull out that technique are very low...and so on.

As a beginner I cannot answer to this question, because I still am not confident with none of my techniques hee hee.

guest89893
06-01-2007, 09:00 AM
I find the technique of blocking punches and kicks with my face not very useful in a real fight situation. I always tried to avoid using that technique.

Okay a more serious answer (but I'm telling you the above statement is good advice), if the technique takes longer than you can say "uno" -it's probably not good in a real time situation. Second part is never expect the attacker to react like a dojo trained "uke."

Best advice use all your skills to stay away from fights and danger!

Ciao,
Gene

gdandscompserv
06-01-2007, 09:02 AM
The Ninja Death Touch.:D

batemanb
06-01-2007, 09:10 AM
I don't think there's a particular technique I would never use. would like to think that whatever I do will be an interaction at the time. The technique would be a result of the interaction rather than me having predefineed techniques for certain circumstances, or ruling something out.

Like Gene says though, try not to use your face.

DonMagee
06-01-2007, 09:24 AM
It might be easier for me to just point you to youtube. 85% of the video's there show techniques I would never try to use.

Renzo Roncal Soto
06-01-2007, 11:32 AM
You cannot decide that tecnica to reject, but you must find for the opportunity, to create the suitable situation to apply "your" better technique. In my case, and under my experience, I would find for to generate the opportunity to apply a shijo nague.

GLWeeks
06-01-2007, 03:56 PM
5th Level Iron Shirt Technique!

gdandscompserv
06-01-2007, 04:04 PM
5th Level Iron Shirt Technique!
Is that where you iron your shirt while wearing it?
Impressive technique indeed.:cool:

MikeLogan
06-01-2007, 05:36 PM
It is certainly not unheard of for someone to say: "Ordinarily I would never have done it this way, but the situation presented itself as requiring such." in any field of endeavour.

Trying to form a mental block against a particular technique is like encasing a seldom used tool that you are as yet unfamiliar within unbreakable glass. You might reflex into the move and hit a flow/mind/body hiccup halfway through it due to the mental baggage.

You raise a good point about being realistic in which techniques you are more familiar with and in which you have the best grasp/habituation of the fundamentals. In a pinch you might not be picking and choosing, what your body is familiar doing will hopefully take over, so be aware and realistic about your basics.

Oh, and what Gene said. Happy Friday.

michael.

crbateman
06-02-2007, 05:14 AM
The technique I would never use is whichever one, at that moment, won't work... Otherwise, all possibilities are open.

Aikibu
06-02-2007, 09:59 AM
All Kidding Aside...Allot of our Atemi is directed at the eyes, throat, and groin and the result could be very painful...I cannot predict if I would use it to it's fullest extent but in a fight situation if it was serious enough well...

William Hazen

Carlos Rivera
06-04-2007, 08:33 PM
Oh, just do the Nike-do (Run, Forrest, Run!!):cool:

But seriously, avoid the fight if you can.

If you cannot avoid it, you'll find your sense of self preservation, along with martial awareness (and good Aikido) will take over. As far as what technique to use. . . that's hard!! Things should just come naturally and you shouldn't be waiting for just one opportunity to use your "favorite technique." Real life fighting is not like shopping for discounted merchandise, you can't pick that nice pair of shoes up on the shelf. Sometimes you have to pick the less attractive boots on the lower shelf and walk out of the store.:D

Here's a short story: I have worked in prisons over 15 years, my "day at the office" is very atypical. One day I had this convicted felon who tried to stab me by coming in straight at my belly (I had already tried to talk him out of the whole thing) and guess what came out of the Aikido bag? Kote gaeshi!! Hey, it worked and I kept the shank (ok, that's prison slang for a knife) away from me and when I cranked back. . . his body followed in a short arch while his wrist snapped, then his face met the floor and I finished the pin- yes, his arm broke in a few other places. And yes, I walked away with one small abrasion from the scuffle instead of being gutted like a pig. Hey, it gave me a better appreciation of life as well as what my teachers have taught me!!

:circle: :square: :triangle:

Aikibu
06-04-2007, 11:46 PM
Oh, just do the Nike-do (Run, Forrest, Run!!):cool:

But seriously, avoid the fight if you can.

If you cannot avoid it, you'll find your sense of self preservation, along with martial awareness (and good Aikido) will take over. As far as what technique to use. . . that's hard!! Things should just come naturally and you shouldn't be waiting for just one opportunity to use your "favorite technique." Real life fighting is not like shopping for discounted merchandise, you can't pick that nice pair of shoes up on the shelf. Sometimes you have to pick the less attractive boots on the lower shelf and walk out of the store.:D

Here's a short story: I have worked in prisons over 15 years, my "day at the office" is very atypical. One day I had this convicted felon who tried to stab me by coming in straight at my belly (I had already tried to talk him out of the whole thing) and guess what came out of the Aikido bag? Kote gaeshi!! Hey, it worked and I kept the shank (ok, that's prison slang for a knife) away from me and when I cranked back. . . his body followed in a short arch while his wrist snapped, then his face met the floor and I finished the pin- yes, his arm broke in a few other places. And yes, I walked away with one small abrasion from the scuffle instead of being gutted like a pig. Hey, it gave me a better appreciation of life as well as what my teachers have taught me!!

:circle: :square: :triangle:

And yes your post is an excellent example of Aikido!

William Hazen

Edward
06-05-2007, 01:47 AM
All and None.

Aikido techniques are designed to build certain reflexes and sensitivities. The ones that are the least likely to be used in a fight are probably the most beneficial ones to build your skills. You might never use them but they would indirectly save your life.

Amir Krause
06-05-2007, 02:31 AM
There are some techniques that I doubt I will ever use in a fight. Typicly those are the more advanced techniques - simply going in and doing your thing.

My problem is not with those techniques - those are the best techniques I know. My problem is with me - those techniques require excelent timing, thus I would have to react in a real scary situaiton, in a calm I know is hard to achieve even on the mat. If I would be able to use such a technique, I will.

There are also a few variations to some techniques which are intended for "safe and harmless" learning and could not have the same effect in a real situation due to a well defined internal flow in the variation (at least in my teacher and my own preception). Again - those are variations that are meant for practice only, and as I have progressed I do try to practice other variations more.

Amir

xuzen
06-05-2007, 02:45 AM
Hi people. This is just a question to satisfy my curiosity, but that in the end can help you be realistic on your skills.

I don't want to enter the discassion of real fight already talked about milions of times, but the question is:

If you had to face a real fight, which one is the technique (if there is one) that you would never use? The reasons might be many, like you don't find it realible, too risky coz if you don't get it right will let your guard way too open to a counter, you think with your actual skill chances to pull out that technique are very low...and so on.

As a beginner I cannot answer to this question, because I still am not confident with none of my techniques hee hee.

I can't speak for myself because I have only been in DOJO BRAWL (TM) never in a REAL FIGHT (TM).

However, if I recall correctly, Kancho Shioda used the following in REAL FIGHT:

i) Sokumen Iriminage against a knife thrust while he was stationed in Shanghai during the war.
ii) a tegatana downward strike (shomen-uchi) on the knee/shin of an assailant and he broke the assailant's legm also in Shanghai
iii) A mune-tsuki punch into the stomach of the above mentioned assailant's goons and the said assailant was floored completely.
iv) Shihonage against a American GI with boxing background during the Occupation period.
and...
hiji-ate kokyu nage as well as shiho-nage.

There are some techniques I may have missed out because I am recalling from memory right now.

Boon.

senshincenter
06-05-2007, 10:36 AM
Off the top of my head, two come to mind:

That version you see around for Yokomenuchi - matters not what technique follows - but the one where you block and stop uke's strike to do whatever;

and,

That version you see around for any attack - matters not what technique follows - but the one where your technique expects uke to run around you but for their own reasons.

dmv

ChrisHein
06-05-2007, 10:48 AM
All the techniques nicely compliment each other.

Sankyo and Shihonage are brother and sister. Irimi and Kokyu nage are brother and sister. Kaiten nage and kotegaishi are siblings.

It's hard to take out a technique because they all give strength to each other like links in a chain.

L. Camejo
06-05-2007, 11:09 AM
Like others have said it may be dangerous to subconsciously exclude any technique totally since there are so many potential situations. There are waza that don't work in 99% of typical situations and then you happen to end up in that 1% situation where it actually makes perfect sense.

Imho the situation determines the response. To place an absolute limit on your waza places a limit on your potential options for survival.

Of course, what Gene and David said above are true too.

Ed Stansfield
06-05-2007, 11:30 AM
the one where your technique expects uke to run around you but for their own reasons.

Those guys again! :D

charyuop
06-05-2007, 02:57 PM
All these answers show me that all the Aikidoka who write in this forum are 100% sure of their skills. I can't wait for the day I will feel confident the same way as you are in my skills.

Anyway, I know that a technique is supposed to come out by instinct. But if someone like the example of the prison guard tries to stab you with a streight shot, it leaves open many possibilities of countering. If you never pull out a kotegaeshi in the dojo, even tho the situation is good for one as in the example above I doubt you would opt for that solution.

ChrisHein
06-05-2007, 07:38 PM
You will respond the same way you train; as long as your training actually mimics the situation.

Janet Rosen
06-06-2007, 12:30 AM
That version you see around for any attack - matters not what technique follows - but the one where your technique expects uke to run around you but for their own reasons.
dmv
Oh yeah, even in a training "non real world" environment that one always drove me nuts - especially as a short slow uke being told that I'm SUPPOSED to WANT to run in a big circle around some big person trying to catch up with their wrists. huh?!

Amir Krause
06-06-2007, 02:55 AM
Oh yeah, even in a training "non real world" environment that one always drove me nuts - especially as a short slow uke being told that I'm SUPPOSED to WANT to run in a big circle around some big person trying to catch up with their wrists. huh?!

Very simple answer:
I have seen some places which train in this manner,
we don't.

You should find a place that suites your wishes \ needs.

Do not forget some things are practiced as part of the learninig process and are not meant to stay this way (we actually explain this from the first time - do it this way now, another way later. Because doing it this way will tech you ro XXX even though it is not practical because ...).

Amir

Ed Stansfield
06-06-2007, 03:00 AM
I'm SUPPOSED to WANT to run in a big circle

Yes:

:hypno: :hypno: :hypno:

Best,

Ed

philippe willaume
06-06-2007, 04:28 AM
Well all techniques have their tactical use. (and we need two make the difference between technique, exercise or setup to demonstrate something).

For example Tenchin backward and grabbing the wrist of our opponent (to do whatever) when he tries to moves forward to grab or to strike

Well that completely sucks if our opponent is striking within his own space (or in balance aka with the shoulder about over his hips)

That is a very good thing/if not THE thing to do if the said opponent is overcommitted (or unbalanced i.e. having his shoulder well in front of the hips).

phil

philippe willaume
06-06-2007, 04:54 AM
I would see "ki" as a way the ancient had to explain thing they did not have the concept to explain otherwise within their vision of the word.

With todays knowledge we would say that Ki in aikido is very smart utilisation body mechanics coupled with a thorough understanding of force vector and system isolation in Newtonian physics. KI in plant growth is the result of photosynthesis.

Does it really mater, if we explain the unbending arm by saying that:
It is the channelling of universal energy and its release.
or that you are using the much more muscle groups, that tend to stabilise the shoulder and the elbow as well as redirecting the force vertor from 180 angle to the pressure to an angle tending towards 90.

Besides in a Newtonian view of the world "ki" will produce a result in newtons. i.e. it is a Force. And so it can be expressed as Energy/Work anyway.

phil

senshincenter
06-06-2007, 09:30 AM
Do not forget some things are practiced as part of the learninig process and are not meant to stay this way (we actually explain this from the first time - do it this way now, another way later.

I get the idea of "drill" or "exercise." Everyone does, I would think. However, I have never seen someone who has been taught the "exercise" of running around nage NOT also employ its logic in nearly everything else they do. This is because while drills and exercises may assist with our overall training, they themselves are but reflections of our overall understanding of said training.

my opinion,
dmv

Ed Stansfield
06-06-2007, 10:21 AM
Hello again,

Firstly, I entirely agree with this point as a response to the original question:

That version you see around for any attack - matters not what technique follows - but the one where your technique expects uke to run around you but for their own reasons.

However...

I get the idea of "drill" or "exercise." Everyone does, I would think.

Well, quite. In my experience however, this idea is something that is struggled with by the many rather than the few...

However, I have never seen someone who has been taught the "exercise" of running around nage NOT also employ its logic in nearly everything else they do.

What would you say its logic is?
If people generalise from an excercise that involves running, to quote Janet's excellent description:
in a big circle around some big person trying to catch up with their wrists then I would say that this is likely to be because they still struggle with the idea of "drill" or "excercise".

This is because while drills and exercises may assist with our overall training, they themselves are but reflections of our overall understanding of said training.

I'm not sure I get this point... To me it seems like a statement that what is reflected from one part of an excercise is actually the whole of someone's understanding. I find this difficult to reconcile with my own experiences on the mat...

Sorry if this is turning into a re-run of the "following" thread.:)

Best,

Ed

tarik
06-06-2007, 10:21 AM
I get the idea of "drill" or "exercise." Everyone does, I would think. However, I have never seen someone who has been taught the "exercise" of running around nage NOT also employ its logic in nearly everything else they do. This is because while drills and exercises may assist with our overall training, they themselves are but reflections of our overall understanding of said training.

I generally agree, but wouldn't say that training occasionally in this manner yields people who inevitably apply it's logic everywhere.

Chicken or egg? Evolutionarily speaking, the answer to that is easier, of course, but in this case, is it the philosophy or logic of produces that particular exercise or vice versa?

I confess, I spent a lot of time working at 'forcing' my partners (uke) to have to make that kind of movement by attempting to apply kuzushi, and this was a very good exercise, however, it required more work and provided them more feedback than I believe is ideal.

I am less interested in that sort of training today and more interested in figuring out what types of kuzushi I can create in my partner's sincere attacks without the kind of labor that they inevitably are able to feel and potentially respond to in ways that I may not wish.

As to addressing the topic of the thread; I think it's relatively meaningless to answer "what if" questions of this sort.

The best answer has already been offered; I will use whatever technique is appropriate to the circumstances whether it has a name or is invented on the spot.

The circumstances include not only the attack, but my state of mind, my opponents state of mind, the situation that surrounds us, and many other factors. Nothing can be ruled out in a circumstance so vague.

The question is really a fruitless exercise of the sort often offered by newer students who have yet to fully comprehend what and why they are training.

If we are training properly, choice of technique should never enter in the equation if or when it comes time to doing. Techniques are merely tools that allow us to access, understand, and apply principles of movement and interaction between two or more bipeds in a combat situation.

Properly learned and applied principles will lead to the application appropriate technique spontaneously, and in a truly stressful situation, you may have no recollection of what or how things went down, merely that they did.

WARNING: I am about to say something that sounds judgmental. If anyone has a problem with critical analysis of training methods, don't bother reading further, you're likely to get angry, irritated, or perhaps start judging me for being willing to express my opinion. It seems to happen in a lot of interactions online. :rolleyes:

I won't ask people who disagree not to post; because I encourage discussion, but I do ask up front that people understand that I apply this same critical analysis to my own training and I am not judging individuals or their value as human beings here, I'm judging the training process.

What I've witnessed in many people's training, including people quite senior whom I respect and admire and enjoy learning from, is an unintentional focusing on the wrong principles while attempting to apply technique.

They have an idea that is philosophically informed and are trying to find ways to make technique happen within that framework, instead of learning the variations that do work, and allowing that to alter their philosophy.

I understand why, as the latter is much more uncomfortable than the former and I've been guilty of it myself.

There is something to be said for entering the art of aikido well informed about many of it's spiritual goals and desiring them for oneself, but there's an enormous danger in believing that one can fully intellectually understand many of the philosophies without having undergone the training, especially in ways that are uncomfortable, push your buttons, and make you seriously question whether the philosophy you believe is accurate.

The paradoxes that are not explored, understood, and internalized will otherwise be thrown away by people who sincerely believe that they understand the art and hence the preponderance of debates in aikido about things like whether atemi is a part of aikido, whether aikido 'works' in real life, and so forth.

Regards,

senshincenter
06-06-2007, 10:54 AM
I generally agree, but wouldn't say that training occasionally in this manner yields people who inevitably apply it's logic everywhere.

First, nice post Tarik.

Since it was mentioned a couple of times... Why don't we try to find some youtube video of what I'm referring to, and I'll look to show how the "logic" of what is being done is carried throughout the video - no matter how long. I may come up short, but it will be an interesting exercise. If anyone can find any video, please direct us to it. I'll try and look for some when I get a bit more time to reply later.

thanks,
dmv

MM
06-06-2007, 10:59 AM
I started a new thread about the running around nage technique. Please view it here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12712

Thanks,
Mark

tarik
06-06-2007, 11:00 AM
First, nice post Tarik.

Since it was mentioned a couple of times... Why don't we try to find some youtube video of what I'm referring to, and I'll look to show how the "logic" of what is being done is carried throughout the video - no matter how long. I may come up short, but it will be an interesting exercise. If anyone can find any video, please direct us to it. I'll try and look for some when I get a bit more time to reply later.

Well, let me yield this point to you rather than putting you through the exercise. It's not important enough to me to want to spend time on it specifically. ;)

I do admit that I have eliminated this type of training from my own practice because it does have it's own dangers of the sort you talk about, because I believe there are better ways to learn the same principles and points, and finally because it is frankly not a part of the training in the organization I've joined.

Regards,

senshincenter
06-06-2007, 11:23 AM
Found one - real fast - got lucky:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylrcUJc7MIA

Please don't make this a thread on Endo. This is just an example of the way the logic of our understanding comes to penetrate our drills and thus our other technical applications.

Here, I will refer to one aspect of the running around - noting how it carries forth into other things that have nothing to do with the running around.

When uke runs around, he/she usually is "asked" to fill the space from which kuzushi is to find its geometric source. For example, rather than bringing a wedge to uke's base of support, uke brings his/her base of support to the wedge. As a result, the transportation of nage's wedge becomes something different than when nage is expected to bring the wedge to uke's base of support. That is to say, one's understanding of irimi becomes something different. In particular, the degree of active penetration comes to be something different (i.e. zero to little active penetration), and thus by default, among other things, the hip-to-hip relationship (in terms of space - i.e. how far is nage's lead hip into uke's rear hip - and in terms of movement - i.e. how much rotation is present in one's linear advancement - etc.) becomes something different, as does the utilization of the back foot (since a more grounded back foot is needed for a more active irimi).

If you look in these other video's, you can see how all of these elements are different from what we see in the first video, as you can see that uke is not expected (i.e. moving outside of the logic of their intended attack) to bring his/her base of support to the geometry that will eventually disturb their balance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MIVo68o6Sg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SJ5sHOGZv4

dmv

Janet Rosen
06-06-2007, 11:52 AM
I too understand the purpose of a drill. it is to develop integration of basic movement and principle.
A drill that has a person literally running in a circle around somebody does not match anything that I have ever integrated into my muscle memory in aikido. Its just silly.

Edward
06-06-2007, 02:42 PM
I too understand the purpose of a drill. it is to develop integration of basic movement and principle.
A drill that has a person literally running in a circle around somebody does not match anything that I have ever integrated into my muscle memory in aikido. Its just silly.

I agree completely and this is something I even refuse to do in class. I am willing to do just half a circle around someone, after which I switch to a different attack.

However I believe the real reason behind this exercice is to develop the sense of synchronization between Uke and Nage, but it does feel like someone leading a donkey with a carrot.

James Stedman
06-09-2007, 10:39 PM
Most life and death confrontations occur suddenly and without warning.Those who have trained mind and body to act as one will discover that any response is legitimate and it will come without conscious deliberation or choice.The ability to react spontaneuosly and achieve a good outcome is the fruit of years of countless repetition and diligent study of the arts.

"I run to attack, I run to defend!"

softocean
05-30-2009, 07:31 PM
I was just thinking that when I practice with people in other martial arts, I trim down my aikido techniques repetoire to just 4-5.
Ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, kote gaeshi. irimi

I feel that I'm not skilled enough with shiho nage, or yonkyo to execute them effectively.

Dan Richards
05-30-2009, 07:33 PM
The technique I would recommend that you never use in a real fight is known as "being there."

Nick
05-30-2009, 07:45 PM
Most life and death confrontations occur suddenly and without warning.Those who have trained mind and body to act as one will discover that any response is legitimate and it will come without conscious deliberation or choice.The ability to react spontaneously and achieve a good outcome is the fruit of years of countless repetition and diligent study of the arts.

"I run to attack, I run to defend!"

^^^^ That.

Nick